How this tool, which sounds like 'Instagram', can help you communicate with your customers and yo...

Hello and welcome to this episode of the Unnoticed Entrepreneur Show. Today, I'm delighted to have joining me all the way from Palo Alto, Matt Schlegel.

Great to be here. Thank you so much, Jim.

Matt, now tell us about the Enneagram. You've got a book out recently and you're an expert on the Enneagram. For those of us that don't understand what that is, what it is first of all, and how it could be used for communication.

Yeah. So once again, thank you for having me on. The Enneagram, it's a very powerful tool that it's most commonly understood as a personality dynamics tool. And you, it describes these 9 distinct personal or personality dynamics, each with its own underlying motivations, each with its own underlying communication styles and needs. And so, you know, and this is how the Enneagram is commonly understood and used by many people. It's wonderful. You know, when I first learned the Enneagram, I discovered more about myself than I'd ever understood before. And once you start on that journey of, wow, okay, so this is what's going on inside of me and really understand understanding that, then you start to realize, oh, well, not everybody is like me. And you start to see, you know, these 9 distinct styles emerge from the people, you know, some are really obvious. Some are not so obvious. It takes a while to get there, but it's, it's so powerful in terms of, you know, understanding your own style, understanding how your style works with other styles. And then, you know, getting to your second point about communication, understanding how each one of these styles is essentially, they have, you know, for lack of a better word, a filter. And knowing how to use words that get through the filter to the person you're trying to communicate is very powerful. And if you just stay in your own style and you communicate the way that, you know, your style would communicate, guess what? That's great for communicating with other people of your style, right? That's why birds of a feather flock together. It's like we get each other.

So, Matt, I can't let you go on any further without explaining if I, if I can test you on what are those personality types. Is that okay to ask you what are those?

Of course. And so there are 9 distinct styles. And the really interesting thing about the Enneagram is they use numbers. So, you know, it, in the most generic way, it's Type 1, Type 2, all the way through Type 9, because there's no one word that describes each one of those types, because we're all very complex people, but there are words that are commonly associated with them. So that, you know, Type 1 would be the perfectionist, Type 2 Type 3 is the achiever. Type 4 is the romantic. Type 5 is the observer. Type 6 is the loyalist. Type 7 is the enthusiast. Type 8 is the boss. And type 9 is the harmonizer or peacemaker. So, you know, so those are some of the words that are commonly associated with each one of those types, but you can kind of start to get a flavor of You know, what each one of these types is bringing to the party.

So interesting. And then the Enneagram, what was the foundation of that? Where did it start?

Yeah. So it's an ancient system with roots traceable back to a couple thousand years ago. It became popularized in the West by a Russian named Gurdjieff. And so he brought the system, you know, kind of in, into the conversation around the end of the last century. And then a psychologist named Oscar Ichazo really took that and started to develop personality dynamics profiles associated with the Enneagram that we now all commonly understand. And then it really flourished in the '60s and the '70s. And I'm, I am fascinated now. If you, if you go on to say YouTube and type in Enneagram, the millennials have just really taken to this. And so there's a lot of content out there.

Oh, how interesting. How interesting. And so, yeah, I had to confess I hadn't heard of Enneagram, probably more my ignorance than anybody else's. So how can an entrepreneur take these Enneagram tests, but also more importantly, what tools have you developed and are you talking about in your book to help entrepreneurs to use that enhance their communication?

Right, right. Well, you know, so there's, you know, tests that you can take. You know, I have a complimentary test on my website. And, and, you know, so you can take that. And usually what happens is you'll score highly on 2 or 3 types. And that's kind of the starting point. You know, don't, don't put a lot of weight into which one you score highest on. Take the top 2 or 3, because like the first time I took the test, I I scored highest on 8, and it turns out that I wasn't an 8. I was actually a 6. That was my second highest scoring, but I was in an environment where I had to exhibit a lot of 8-type behaviors. And so that's why I was like, oh yeah, that's me. That's me. That's me. So anyway, that, that's, uh, that would be the starting point. So feel free to, you know, find that on my website and you could take that. And then, you know, As a communication tool, the really important thing is to understand is that each one of these styles has a distinct way of communicating and listening. And so, you know, when I'm doing business development for my consultancy, I kind of have an idea of the types of Enneagram, the Enneagram types that are associated with different roles in a company. So like, for instance, A CFO, it's likely going to be a Type 1. And so when I'm going to meet with a CFO, I'll start off with words that resonate with that perfectionist. You know, we're going to get you the information. We're going to make sure it's right. We're going to calculate things down to minute detail. You know, so these are all the things that, you know, are going to appeal to a Type 1. And so you can frame your messaging as an entrepreneur. If you know your audience and you know, generally the Enneagram style of your audience, you can tailor your messaging to really resonate with them. And so that's, you know, one very effective way to use the Enneagram as a communication tool.

Yeah. And that is fascinating. And it raises all sorts of questions about the posts And the kind of avatar that you have for your business, doesn't it?

Exactly. Exactly. You know, what Enneagram type are you exuding? And then who's that going to attract? And the Enneagram can help you understand all of that.

Well, and I guess that's both for employees and for partners and for present and future, right?

Exactly. And business leaders, if you're growing a team of people, you know what, you know, and this is why I think that the Enneagram is so effective for leaders. Is because it allows you to really understand the underlying motivation of your teammates. And so that when you're, you know, working with your team, you can understand, okay, well, this person really wants— they're the Type 2. They really want to help. They need appreciation. So I'm going to put them into a role where they're helping people and they're getting appreciation. And in that role, they will love it and they will thrive. And so just— You know, tailoring the way you even structure your team can be helped greatly by an understanding of the Enneagram.

So Matt, tell us about your book then, because you've got some tools, haven't you, that companies can use? So do you want to share with us how you guide people through this?

Right, right. Well, thank you. You know, so, so we've been talking about the Enneagram as a, as a personality system. I actually have an engineering background, so I love systems in general. And one of the things I noticed when I looked at the Enneagram It's a circle that's surrounded by number, kind of looks like almost a clock. So I'm thinking, well, why, why is it a circle and why is it numbers like a clock? And I did a little more research and I discovered that it's also a system. And the order is of the numbers represents the order of those dynamics that appear as you move around the circle. It essentially becomes a problem-solving process. So for instance, what's the first step in problem solving? It's, hey, there's a problem. It shouldn't be like that. It should be like this. Well, that is exactly the dynamic of Type 1, the perfectionist, because the perfectionist is the first one to say, hey, It shouldn't be like that. It should be like this, right? And on around. And so understanding that, I developed a problem-solving, a team problem-solving methodology that you can use with your teams. And it allows you to essentially accomplish amazing things with teams as you systematically work through that process.

Okay, Matt. And what is the book called? Just give it a shout.

Yeah, it's called Teamwork 9.0. And, you know, the 9 is for the 9 Enneagram types. And it's getting, you know, it, it's one of the things there, there's a lot of books about the Enneagram out there, but I didn't see a book about how to use it as this team problem-solving process. So that's why I wrote the book is there's this whole other great use case for the Enneagram that I wanted to share with the world.

That's nice, Matt. So presumably that's available on Kindle and audiobooks and everything else, right?

Yep. We're working on the audiobook, but you can find the Kindle and the paperback book on Amazon now.

Wonderful. But Matt, you know, this is a show about marketing and entrepreneurs can get noticed. So Can you tell us with, with your methodology, how do you think an entrepreneur could use that to solve a marketing problem?

Right. That, that's such a great question. When you're working through problem solving, step 1 is very clearly defining the problem and then creating your goals, right? It should, you know, be like this. So it's the should and the shouldn't. And in that step 1, you create that vision for what you want to accomplish. And then you can use the rest of the steps. It's like step 2 is it's the helper. It's like, who can help me? Who can help me realize this vision? Right. And this is where that, you know, as a 6, right. I know I'm not the best marketer. I know that's not my strength. But there's many people with strengths in marketing like you, Jim, who, you know, really understand that. And so I now seek help, guidance, and direction from people who are great at marketing. And then I get their ideas and then go to 3 is test them out, figure out which ones are having the most positive energy, figuring out how to implement them. And then you move around so that You create this marketing plan where you get all the way to implementation and then you test it. So that's how I'm using it in my marketing is just to make sure I'm hitting all of those points in problem solving as I move around.

I really like that because often, especially in say PR or marketing, we end up sort of thinking of it as a creative only problem or maybe a budget problem. And yet you are making it so that you're appealing sort of to a much broader spectrum of personality types who would evaluate that problem more like the de Bono Six Hats, where you take different views on the same problem.

Exactly. That's another way of looking at it is you get stuck in your own way of looking at things and your own perspective. And if you deliberately you know, seek out guidance from the other Enneagram types in your world, then you will get all of these fresh perspectives that help you move around and solve your problem. So that's, that's absolutely, that's a great point.

Yeah. And I like that, Matt, in that there are sort of 2 dimensions, aren't there? There's you're solving your own marketing problem, but also as we talked earlier, if you think about your avatar, You know, who your ideal customer profile is or member of staff. If you can identify what their Enneagram profile is, you can adjust your vocabulary accordingly.

Exactly.

Or your images and so on accordingly.

Exactly. Exactly. Because each Enneagram type will respond, you know, more positively or negatively to an image, right? So if you know who that persona is that you're trying to target to, you can really hone in on the messages.

Question, do people change where they are on the wheel either over buying lifecycle, for example, or over, you know, a product introduction lifecycle? So do they start off as a 1, but maybe become a 2, but once they've bought the product, become a 4? Do they change personality-wise?

You know, that's a great question. And the The way I answer that, because, because people often have this question and, and there's, there's a couple of ways to answer it, but one is, are you right-handed or left-handed?

Personally, I'm right-handed. Yeah.

Okay. Now, do you have a left hand?

Yeah.

Do you use, do you use your left hand?

I do indeed.

Right. So, you know, generally we have a dominance of one of the Enneagram types. It doesn't mean we don't have the other types in us. It doesn't mean we don't have access to them when we need them, because I'm right-handed, often use my right hand, but when I need to, when I'm typing, I'm using my left hand, right? So it's, it's there. So, so that's one thing. And then the other thing that as people understand the Enneagram more, you'll see in the diagram, there's these lines within the circle. And every Enneagram type is connected to 2 other types. And these represent how your behaviors change when either you're in a relaxed, comfortable place or in a stressed place.

Oh, that is very interesting.

Yes. So when you see somebody that you know, and then you see them start to behave in a different way. It's like the type, let's, let's pick on the Type 1, right? You know, the Type 1 is very concerned about getting it right all the time, but then, you know, they go on vacation and all of a sudden all of that disappears and all they want to do is just have fun and they just forget all that other stuff. And that's their movement to Type 7 in that relaxed place. And then on the other hand, when they get overwhelmed, you know, when all of these problems start building up, then you can see them move to Type 4, which this is kind of this, you know, emotional, almost slightly depressed state. And so you can see that the Enneagram represents those motions depending on where they are personally in their life.

And that has a massive impact from a marketing perspective, because when we talk about customer journeys, not only in the buying process, but are they on the way to holiday when they see the the article or are they reading it on the beach is an entirely different place on the Enneagram than if they're going to work and they've, you know, had a stressful weekend.

Exactly.

Yeah. So that's very interesting. So that has some impact as well then probably on, on SEO word selection too, doesn't it?

That's right. And where people will be, if you're trying to solve a problem for highly stressed people, Then you want to know what's going on for that when they're in that stress state and how to reach them, even when they're in their stress state. And it's harder in the stress state because people tend to become a little more myopic in that. So you have to be even more targeted in your messaging.

Wow. Okay. That is really, really powerful. This is obviously a huge subject. I look forward to reading your book, but Matt, how As an entrepreneur, and you've worked in Japan, which is fantastic, and now you're back in the States, how are you getting noticed and getting your new book working out?

Well, you know, for one, I'm doing my virtual book tour now. I launched the book in the middle of the pandemic, so it's all been virtual. So I really appreciate the opportunity to speak to you and your audience. So that's, that's one way that I'm doing. And I, and I love it. You know, I'm just meeting so many great people like yourself. And, and then I do a lot of writing, you know, I like writing, I wrote a book. So I'm, I'm leaning into that and writing blogs and articles. I have this tentpole strategy on my, my website where there's certain points that I'm trying to emphasize, like leadership and teamwork and decision-making and Enneagram. And I write articles in each one of those areas. Is that gets picked up by the search engines. And I just drive traffic to my website that way. So yeah, a number of different techniques that I'm using and having a lot of fun with. And the thing I would give advice to anybody is try a lot of things and then stick with the ones that you really like doing, because those are the ones you'll keep doing. And if you can find that intersection of The things I like doing and the things that are effective, that's where the magic is.

Matt, you're absolutely right, because actually there are so many demands on our time otherwise, aren't there? So many channels unless you use an amplification tool like, you know, Hootsuite or Buffer to send in an automated way. But if you're gonna engage with an audience, then you really have to focus, don't you? That's absolutely great advice. Matt Schlegel, how can people find out about you?

Yeah, well, the, the best way would be to visit my website, which is evolutionaryteams.com, all one word, evolutionaryteams.com. And you can find out more about the book. You can see what I'm writing about and feel free to contact me. You'll find the test there as well. And if you take the test and you want to have a conversation, reach out and I'd be happy to guide you through that.

Well, Matt, I've really enjoyed our conversation. You've taught me a huge amount. So thank you so much for sharing. all about the Enneagram and all the implications that there are for understanding which of the 9 profile types both we are, but also our respective audiences are. So thank you so much for sharing those insights today.

Thank you so much.