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Okay, and welcome to this episode of The Unnoticed Show. Shelley James, yes, she is my sister, but she's also the creator of Luna Go Lightly. Shelley, welcome to the show.

Thank you very much, it's a pleasure to be here.

Now you're here not just because you're my amazing sister, but also you've managed to create a set of avatars that have got over 1.5 million views of some edumercials for kids. Tell us about Luna Go Lightly and the problem that you're solving and how other people can learn from it.

Oh, I have a doctorate from the Royal College of Art in optics and perception, and I'm also qualified as an electrician, which is— which makes an interesting combination. I started this project in fact during lockdown because I found myself really struck by how the young people around me were locked down, locked inside, and I could see them really struggling and I realized that there were some very, very simple things that they could do and that their parents could do to make a massive difference, and it was all about light. And so what I did to begin with was simply to reach out to experts because I felt that there were so many people around the world doing some brilliant work in this field. And so I spoke to scientists, I spoke to education specialists, and I spoke to some manufacturers, and I recorded a series of interviews initially to find things out myself but also then to share that with other people. And that started to build an audience, in fact. And at the end of that, I invited these world experts to come together for a panel debate because I thought, what can I offer them back for their time? And what I realized when I asked them whether they were free was they suddenly all wanted to be together in the same room. People in the same— in different disciplines very often don't get a chance to meet each other. So we had a panel debate and At the end of that, we all agreed that this information was so precious and so powerful, but there was nowhere for ordinary folk to find this stuff out. And so I reached out to— and they said, well, Shelley, why don't you have a go at doing that? And so I took down— took on the challenge. And in fact, 3 of the manufacturers who were in— who had connected through this process of making interviews, they agreed to sponsor this initial this initial foundation series. And we came up with the idea of Luna Golightly and her dad, um, and her little brother Beam and Spectrum the cat and the fireflies as a little sort of unit who would be the host for this conversation. And we also realized that the audience that we wanted to connect with were teens, um, because they're the ones that, that really get— they're starting to make their own in decisions, and they're really affected by this. And we realized— I'm certainly, I'm inspired by the teens around me, including your amazing daughters, Jim— about how when they know about why they should do something, they get on and do it. They are absolutely remarkable. As long as we're there telling them to do stuff, they go, well, whatever. If they really get why, then, then, then they really take it on. And in fact, they're always ready to share. So So we developed this thing and this initial concept, and these sponsors came on board for this Foundation Series. And what I realized that I needed to do was to make sure it was independent. And so I made sure all these— I chose sponsors from different sectors, so there was no competition. They were all absolutely in it for the same thing, which is to put the humans back at the center of human-centered lighting. And what I also did was to bring scientists in so that it wasn't just about selling products, it was actually about solutions, it was about what really makes a difference. And the third thing I did was to bring in a focus group of teens so that I— because I don't have kids myself, I, I spend as much time as I can, you know, learning what they, what they're interested in, but I don't have kids myself. And so I invited a, a small group of teens to, to help me to make this work in a way that— to deliver the information in a way that they were— they it would work for them. And it was an interesting journey. And we were sort of, I felt as if I was in a hurry really. I decided that I wanted to launch this soon after Christmas, sort of early January time, because I could see these kids suffering. And I knew that by the time the spring came on, who knew everything's moving so fast. So I came up with an initial concept and I did some cartoons, I did some drawing, and I shared that with the guys and they went, well, whatever. Yeah, it's okay, but whatever. And actually it was your idea, Jim, to come up to use a tool which was much closer to sort of a TikTok style. And so I came back with that using an online platform. I created some free avatars using an online design platform. I'd used sort of some graphics using online design platform. And I showed that to the teens and I saw their eyes light up. They went, ah, now that's more like it.

Now, was this the first ones we did with Doodly and Toonly, or is this the Lumen 5 version? Because actually we went through a couple of iterations, didn't we?

We went through lots of iterations, absolutely. So the first ones are hand-drawn and then put through Doodly, and then I tried Toonly with their own, but they were— it was always a little bit too, um, they went, yeah, it's sort of like the kind of thing we'd get at school, it's sort of all right, But it was when we moved on to sort of, when we started to use Lumen5, which gave us a completely different aesthetic. It was poppy, it was, and actually Luna, I mean, the initial idea was, you know, there was a story about Luna and the kids were saying, well, that's honestly, it's just taking too long to get into this. And when we went right back to core message, we came up with a formula actually, which with their help really lands very, very quickly. And Luna simply becomes the host with the story. So the idea was to listen to what the teens needed and give them that in a way that they would get and not keep on pushing our own agenda, whether it be to kind of promote Luna or to promote a product.

And this is one of the key elements of the Speak PR program, is that you're creating content in the format that the audience already is comfortable with, you know, rather than creating what were initially sort of PowerPoint presentations for children, right? And that missed the mark. The content was interesting, but the format was not. That was a big lesson too, the medium being the message, right?

Yeah. Oh, Marshall McLuhan's right there. It's true. And I think the other thing that was interesting was that one of the reasons I was very glad to have a set of sponsors who were passionate about this topic too, is that when we asked the kids what they needed to know, some of the topics that these manufacturers are very proud of in their products, They went, well, whatever. It just wasn't on the agenda. So that's something else we were able to— so we used a language, a visual language, and a timing that the kids are used to, and we also met them where they were in terms of their interests. So that was something else that we learned very quickly and actually has meant that we were able to create content which which really landed. And what's interesting is that the original idea, we created a series so that people could, I suppose, almost like a funnel of information for different dimensions or different parts of their relationship. So we have a 40-second quick hit, and then we have a minute and a half up to 2-minute longer dive with some practical solutions like light meters and things. And then we have an interview with a scientist. about the underlying science. And this toolkit is starting to be used by schools, and we'd expected that the— and we'd expected that the information, or that they would only watch the 40-second, maybe that's enough. But actually what we're finding, particularly for a couple of the more technical topics like flicker and headaches, the 2-minute version is getting 47%, 49% Watch. So that's a 2-minute video about Flickr, and you'd think that's— so we were able to use social media platforms to really— we fed it out week by week, and we just, we were able to adjust things like the titles. We were able to adjust where things were delivered in a way that over time our scores have gone up. On one particular video, we simply changed the title. It went from 7.5% click-through up to— it's now at 13%. It's actually up nearly one of our— well, it's not our best ones, but it's— you can really be super agile and super quick by creating this, by monitoring the spend and the kind of feedback very quickly.

That's what we call amplification in the Speak PR program. Jess, tell us then, you've got these different these different video formats, sort of 40 to 2 minutes. Which platforms then have you been able to send them out to, Shelley?

So we simply went to where our audience is, which is Facebook and Instagram. We looked at TikTok and we looked at Twitter, but neither of those have really taken off in the way that we thought they might. And so what we've done is simply to focus, and it's been interesting because we initially placed the ads through Instagram and through Facebook separately. And because we were adjusting the titles, we were sort of playing around, fine-tuning, Instagram actually blocked us briefly from putting the ads up. And so what we were able to do, in fact, thanks to my amazing VA, we were able to do was to place the Instagram ads via Facebook. And what we'd seen was that the, Instagram engagement, we were getting many more, many more, the reach was much bigger, but the engagement was relatively low. So on Instagram, on Facebook, I was getting 12, 15, 20% click and watch, whereas on Instagram we were getting 6, 7, 8, up to 9%. So what we found is in fact by placing the ads via Facebook onto Instagram, we're getting a lower reach. I mean, they're still in the thousands a day, but we're getting lower reach but higher click-through, higher engagement.

Wow. Why, why do you think that is?

Honestly, I don't know. But what's interesting is that just fine-tuning things like changing the title, changing the COVID image, changing the pathway for play, even just for placing that ad seems to make a massive difference.

Yeah, I use a tool called Headline Analyzer, and it's amazing the difference in discoverability just by changing a few words can make. It can have a score of 50 to 60 through up to about 84 is the highest I've ever got out of 100 just by changing the titles. So that's a really great learning as well.

So just one other thing that made a big difference to the way, I think, not only to the way that Facebook and Instagram have been promoting and sort of helping us to reach those amazing numbers, But also to how the— how they're landing is that we were very careful about the image, the landing image, the way into the piece really made a massive difference, and I adjusted one of them slightly and again it shifted. And what was interesting is that one of them has a picture of a dad on the front and that has done very— that's one of our best.

Wow, yes, I like that one as a dad. Yes, so the thumbnail, as I think it's called, right, is also making a difference. So it really is a science, but also an iterative one, right? That's also been a really good learning from this. Can we just talk a little bit about the content? Initially, you went— well, we went to a big agency. What was the original sort of idea of cost, because I think that was one of the bottlenecks originally, wasn't it? So that seems to be something just worth thinking about when people think about an idea. And we got sort of some pretty scary numbers, didn't we? But we came back with some solutions.

Absolutely, Jim. So I mean, I've worked in big agencies myself, and you sort of think that the only way to really make an impact, to make a difference, is to use a giant agency, probably in Soho or in New York, because they all look so cool and they do amazing amazing, amazing work. But we went out to a couple of them, and in fact, some of them are so grand, they— it felt like a privilege they would even talk to us. And they said, oh well, it'd be 3 months, so a couple of months. Of course, you've got Christmas. It'll be a couple of months to do the concept, and that'll be £5,000 to just do the concept because we like you. That's cheap for us, and we will retain the copyright for the things that we create. And then if you want to make some more, For every— if you wanted to make 5, that'll be £75,000 plus the initial, plus the buyout of the rights. So I was thinking, shall I mortgage a house? What, how does that work?

Yeah.

And also sort of worried that if I went for something, I also went to some smaller agencies and that was sort of 25 grand, which was sort of pretty much double the budget. And that's without paying myself. So I thought, well, if I, I don't wanna sort of feel like I'm going for something that's sort of just cheap and cheerful, because actually they were pretty uninspiring, those cheap ones. I mean, it wasn't that cheap either, and it was still gonna take ages, and I was gonna have to kind of explain to the designer all the time what I wanted. So I decided that either I went sort of top dollar or I just went for it. And because actually I didn't have the choice of going top dollar, I just went for it. And that's been a brilliant lesson. in, I suppose, having confidence in your own ideas, but also using the tools that are out there. Because when we— when I share what I've done with these giants, I mean, some of my sponsors are the biggest in the world.

Yeah, well, let's give them a shout. Sol Semiconductor, Signify, Fagerhold, right? These are big names that also put their toe in the water a little bit. They gave some budget, but not not really a huge amount, but enough to get it started, right? So it created a real limitation on the production budgets.

Which I think is, in a way, is a benefit. I mean, again, one of the lessons from this is to stay agile, and that sort of a £5,000 ceiling for a little sort of sponsorship spend, it's about the price of a transatlantic ticket, you know, business class, or, you know, we're not— you're in the realm of things that they can actually— in fact, one of the clients suggested that he pay on his Amex card, you know, so you're in the realm of things that they can, they can make a— take a punt on. Above that level, you start to go into committees and then your idea sort of just runs into the sand. I think the other thing that really helped this process of moving quickly is that it was the end of the— it was the year end, sort of October, November, and they'd got a little bit of money to mop up. So, well, a couple of them had, particularly because the pandemic meant that they weren't able to do some of the trade shows and things that they were doing. So, uh, and they were sort of looking for ways to pivot. And so that also was a— I think choosing your moment can really help in that zone as well.

So I think that's really lots of wonderful learnings in there, and that you focused on the children really made a big difference, didn't it? That it wasn't a hero piece. And I think we had that decision about focusing on spending on the promotion, not on the production, and that was also a key moment, I think, wasn't it? In terms of the response, can you talk a little bit about the sort of the engagement on the client side? What have you had to do to sort of negotiate and get them from a sponsorship and positioning perspective? Because the way that you've got it financed is a new model, really. to get 3 sponsors for 1 piece of content. Just tell us a little bit about how you negotiated that, because that's some pretty clever footwork.

Well, I suppose, as with everything, it's to do with building a relationship. I didn't know these guys to begin with. And what I did first was to offer them a platform, using the interviews essentially as an excuse to speak to them and as a way for them to meet other people that they couldn't meet otherwise. So I went in there with a give. with an open-handed give, with no expectation at all. So I'd say that's the first lesson, is that you meet people as human beings who are passionate about their topic and you give them the benefit of the doubt about that. You kind of, you set the expectation that we're all in this for the right reasons. So I'd say that's the very first thing. And the interview is a great, or the podcast or something, it's a great excuse. So I'd say that was the first thing. I'd say the next thing was to be clear that we were in a kind of, we're in a team where there wasn't any sort of, nobody was getting their names in the sales. So there was completely open about, I was in charge of the content with the kids for the same reason. And what I would deliver for them was content that they could use with their sales teams and in trade fairs and in other situations. where they just need to break up the monotony of a PowerPoint presentation. So I was offering them some tools that they were clear where they could use them, but they weren't— but they were also clear that they weren't entirely in charge of the— they weren't commissioning me to make something, that we were all together on a journey to shift the language about human-centered lighting.

Yeah, I think you've done that really cleverly. Yeah.

And I think, I mean, the other thing was that was, I suppose, footwork or not. What was great was that I, I got an anchor tenant in there first. I mean, Seoul Semicon is, is, is giant, and, and the guy who, um, is my sponsor— and in fact, we're talking about the next level of sponsorship now— um, he's, he's quite a— he's an unusual man and ready to take— ready to try stuff out. And he's got some discretion. He's actually far enough away from head office, and he does interesting enough stuff that they let him get on with it. And once I'd got that in the bag, I could say, well, these guys are doing it. And so there's quite a lot to be— and it's even one of them, I said, look, I'll give you a discount so that I just have you on there. So, um, but I, but I'd already got a couple of acutenants and he wanted to be in, but he hadn't— couldn't work out how to make it work. And I said, well, having, having a triad in these different sectors will just really ramp it up for all of us. So, okay, you can come in. So I think, yeah, anchor tenant and building, finding people who are ready to take a risk and delivering them. One of the great things for Mark, who from Seoul Semicon, who took the risk, he was my anchor tenant, is that his boss over in Korea, I mean, in Korea, myopia and the problem of bad lighting in kids is just massive. I mean, there's just a whole generation of kids who are on the verge of, you know, really struggling with their eyesight, particularly into later years. And he was— he was— the project got noticed by his boss, uh, the head of sort. And, you know, they never do that. And we, we were— when we decided to launch Luna on LinkedIn and, you know, other platforms, his boss, his CEO, got his weight behind it and did a quote. And we got 1,200 views on LinkedIn in 4 hours on that day. So, you know, it's I was able to give him something back in terms of his own kind of association with the project, which is seen to be— it's in line with their positioning and in line with his own positioning as a kind of an innovator.

Yeah, so you've really taken care of a number of different stakeholders, really, haven't you, Shelley? Both the young people who are the primary stakeholders and then the sponsors. And what about for you now? You're being approached by the media, you've been on the BBC Radio talking about light, you've been approached by a PR firm to, you know, to be a client. They'd like to work with you, which is a nice turn of events. What, what's next? One last sentence then, Shelley. What's next for Luna Go Lightly and the Age of Light Innovations Group?

Well, it's exciting times. I think some of the sponsors who I spoke to before Luna started have come back and want to be part of the next one. It's the full restaurant thing. I'm now looking at how to bring that closer to specifiers and architects and people who can actually make those sorts of decisions. So I'm working, I'm in conversations with one of the very, a couple of large organizations in the States, particularly about bringing this message to the people who are starting to make the decisions as part of the world building standards. So that's the next part of this project.

Shelley James, if they want to find out about you, where can they go to find you?

Well, the website is ageoflightinnovations.com, and you'll find my contact details there. I'm also on LinkedIn, and that's probably where you'll find me most easily. So thank you very much indeed.

So there you go. I told you that she's amazing. Not only is she my sister, but she's doing amazing work for young people in this world about the power of light. Thank you for listening to this episode of The Unnoticed. Wishing you the best of health, a safe lockdown, and that if you've got children, check out the Luna Go Lightning videos. I think you'll find them really informative and inspiring. I know that I have. Thanks for listening.

Be well.