Mastering Podcast Guesting Your Key to Entrepreneurial Success with Shaahin Cheyene

If you've been thinking about podcast guesting and you would like to know more about it, then the guest I have for you today is just perfect. You know, I'm a big advocate of being a guest and not a host. I love being a host myself, but it's not for everyone. It's certainly not for entrepreneurs who really should be minding their own business, if you don't mind me saying. My guest today is the founder of a company called Podcast Cola based out of Los Angeles, been going now for about 5 years. and has over 300 clients that they're placing. So there isn't anything that he doesn't know about the benefits of podcasting and some of the challenges entrepreneurs face. My guest today is Shaheen Shaheen, joining me from Los Angeles, CEO of a company called Podcast Cola. Welcome to the show.

What's up, Jim?

Mate, it's making me a bit nervous because you're in LA. I feel I've got to get like a showreel first 60 seconds in. So it's 57 seconds of the introduction. Let's turn over to you, Shaheen. Tell us a little bit about Podcast Cola and what you do for clients.

So Podcast Cola is one of the premier podcasting agencies. We're one of the largest in the world, probably the largest in the world, people tell me. And what we do is if you are somebody who has a product, a service, something where you are making thousands of dollars selling your thing, You got to be able to get it out there. And here's the thing: there are options in marketing. You can run Facebook ads, Instagram ads, TikTok ads. You can produce content. You can do all types of things. But as we enter into the TikTok generation, and that's all of us now, as we turn into the goldfish attention spans, people have three seconds, maybe less, before they're on to the dancing monkey or the girls in the short skirts or whatever it is that's grabbing their attention in that. So what we've discovered is the most effective, the single most impactful way for you to sell is to not sell. And I'll explain. The single best way for you to sell your product is to not sell. And that is to say that the best way is through storytelling. Now, you can't storytell through an Instagram ad, not really. You can't storytell through a Facebook post, not really. Well, you can do it through this beautiful medium that me and you are doing right now, which is podcasting. The biggest problem we discovered that people have is, hey, I love watching Joe Rogan. I love watching all these great podcasts, but how do I become a guest on those? Now, here's the catch-22, they call it, catch-21. I forget which one it is. But If you contact the shows directly, you seem kind of unprofessional, right? Do you think Tom Cruise is knocking down people's doors saying, hey, get me in your movie? Not really. So we are a professional services company and what we do is we act as your publicist. We build out a full pitch deck. We do a 30,000-foot view of you, your business, what you're all about, what your message is, what your call to action is. We help you formulate that. We create a beautiful pitch deck like the one I showed you before the show, and we pitch you to shows. Now, what differentiates Podcast Cola from other agencies besides the quality of our relationships, which is everything in the business that we're in, is the fact that we give unlimited pitches. So we have an unlimited plan. So if you're an author and you're like, man, I need to get on 100 podcasts quick, We're going to be your, your best bet. If you're somebody who's selling an online course, if you're somebody who has a training program, if you're somebody who does high-level consulting, if you're a speaker, an author, if you have a product that you want to sell millions of, there's no single better way to sell than to bring people into your world. And the way to do that is through story.

And as you say, the beautiful thing about podcasts is that it's The opportunity for you to tell your own story in your own words, isn't it? Because if you have media relations, you know, I used to run a PR firm, you tell your story to a journalist who then rewrites it for you, right? And then so many clients say, that's not what I said. So Shaheen, that's fantastic. And I think you're right, it's catch-22. You know, you, you go to the, you go to the host and they say, what have you been on before? And you say nothing. And they say, well, you need to get on a show before you can come on my show, especially the, the top.

That's right.

What are some of the, if you like, anxieties that you find with entrepreneurs, authors about getting onto shows? Because the way you've sold it to me, it seems like a no-brainer. Of course, you know, I'm a podcast host, so I'm a believer. But what do you find is the bottleneck for people?

So, there's a couple different bottlenecks. So, for most people, The first one is, okay, if you are a speaker, an author, somebody who's really got something that's noteworthy, most of those clients are like, okay, I just got to get my story heard. Just get me the eyeballs and I'll take care of it. For somebody who's maybe starting out, one of their biggest hesitations is maybe I'm not You know, this person or that person. So we represent a lot of great people, people like Chris Voss, the FBI hostage negotiator who wrote this great book, Never Split the Difference. Chris doesn't need us. He doesn't really— he's— everybody wants him. But if you're not a Chris Voss and you're not a guy like that who has to have a podcast, you know, who is already famous, I should say it like that. If you're somebody who's not already famous, maybe you have a little difficulty crafting your story. But everybody's got a story. And what we tell our folks is that it's our job to bring out your story in a way that's impactful enough to get you on the shows. And then once you get on the shows, you can talk about everything. But the key is, the key factor in podcast publicity is how are we going to put together a story of you That's going to resonate with great hosts, much like yourself.

Shane, that's great. That's a great story idea. Now you talk about with podcast hosts, are there some key attributes that you think podcast hosts are looking for? And does it change, for example, with B2B podcasts and let's say consumer podcasts? I presume you're doing both.

Yeah, look, I think to your first question was, does it make a difference which kind of shows you're on? Is that what it was?

Yeah.

So absolutely. So another thing that sets Podcast Cola apart is that we are very niche-specific. So we don't believe in shotgunning the process of going out there and going, hey, we're gonna just go to every show out there, which is why we do an intensive onboarding where we get to know you. And then what we do is we learn about what kind of shows you want to be on and why. You might think you want to be on Joe Rogan, the largest podcast in the world, but that might not serve you as a corporate speaker. That might not serve you as, as somebody who's in a more conservative environment. What might serve you more is to get on a smaller show that CEOs listen to, or smaller shows that the CMOs of specific companies listen to. So what we do is we create a profile and we target that niche specifically to achieve your CTA, your call to action, because all that matters is that your business thrives and you see ROI. Clients come to us all the time telling us, hey, the podcast that you got me on doubled and tripled my business, and that's what I want to hear.

Right?

There, there are people out there who just want to become famous, and that's a different game. That's something else entirely. So their entire goal is to become famous without any objective at the end of that, and we're not really suited for that. What we're suited for is somebody who wants to see some return on their investment that they're spending with us and wants to achieve a target at the end of that.

So Shaheen, what about this issue of podcasting as an industry, because it seems to have matured a little bit. You know, we had a whole raft of podcasts start during lockdown. Yeah, you know, we know that the average number of podcast episodes produced is 7, actually, right before people then give up.

Is that right? Yeah, I didn't know that.

Yeah, it's a remarkably small number, and we're down to now about 300,000 to 400,000 active podcasts, you know. Uh, so how are you helping clients to navigate which of those are going to be, if you like, the, the ones— you talked about niching, but what sort of criteria are you looking for? Because in the old publishing days, we look for circulation, for example, or, or audit. How do you overcome clients' sort of concern that you're putting them on a show but maybe a little bit murky about You know, the performance of that show?

So a couple things. So the first thing is, when you're just starting out, I tell people this, it doesn't matter if you're talking to one person or a million people, you should have the same pitch. And I'm sure you teach this in your course. I know you told me you're doing a course to teach people how to be good podcast hosts, which is awesome. And I think that in the beginning, the way you get good at doing something is by doing the thing. So you need to start getting on podcasts and you need to start failing. You need to go, oh, that was bad. I shouldn't have said that. Maybe this doesn't work. Maybe this does work. Maybe I was nervous. Maybe I shouldn't have worn that shirt. Maybe my hair was bad. Like, I'm having a bad hair day today in case you didn't notice. So there's all kinds of things that you can learn from doing shows and then you start climbing the ladder, right? So to your question, The way that we answer clients' questions about that is if we were just out there booking you on anything, I would get that. But we really get to know you. We really get to understand you as a client, and we're not going to be booking you on shows that don't meet the ethos of who you are. We are agnostic from the standpoint of politics, from the standpoint of Anything controversial. So it doesn't matter to us what it is. I mean, of course, we only represent people that are doing things that are ethical. You know, there are some industries where we don't represent people, but as long as what you're doing is ethical and moral and not against the law, we will represent you and get you on shows. Now, the shows that we get you on, we've got people from all sides. We've got people that are on the right. We've got people that are on the left. We've got people that are centrist. We've got people that believe in one thing and people that believe in the other. We represent people all across the board and in all niches. And the key is really for us to learn about you during the onboarding process to find out which communities you want to activate and which communities will help you elevate the message that you're putting out there, and then we pitch you to those communities. So for example, if you are a right-wing Republican, we're not gonna get you on a left-wing show. Or similarly, if you're a left-wing person, we're not gonna book you on a right-wing show because that doesn't help you. A little bit of controversy is good because controversy is interesting and people wanna watch that. You know, one of my guilty pleasures is watching celebrity meltdowns. Have you ever seen those?

No, I haven't. Although it looks as though American politics at the moment is kind of giving daily fare for that, but—

Daily fare for that. But if you ever wanna watch the like celebrity meltdowns on TV, you see these like people who play very calm and cool, you know, superstars and these, and you just see them melting down over not getting their latte right or something like that. And it's fascinating to watch. And the reason is, is 'cause there's controversy, there's tension, and we love calling people out on their hypocrisy. And that's a, I think actually a little bit more in the UK than here in the US? Because I think funnily enough, I don't even know if that's a word, the thing I love about the UK, especially with their podcasts and their TV shows, is they kind of like take a piss at people all the time, right?

Even if you get pissed off.

Yeah, it's in the DNA. Yeah, no, it absolutely is, Shaheen. We don't want to take people too seriously, right? And so some of the cancel culture we find a little bit hard to understand.

That's right.

Shaheen, what about— I mean, just about, um, culture. One of the key sort of questions that comes up around podcasting is about people paying for placements. You know, when I worked in Asia, in Southeast Asia, we did not pay for coverage. In China, it's pretty common to pay media. What's the view at Podcast Cola about paying hosts to go on shows? Because that's, that's the kind of the elephant in the room, isn't it?

Yeah. We don't believe in that. I have never asked a client to pay for a show. So for those of you watching this who don't understand, you can go out to podcasts and say, hey, I want to be on your show. And those podcasts in the beginning, when they're starting, they'll take anybody. And then they start getting a little more selective and they start getting a lot selective. And then they go, look, I've got a backlog of 100 people who want to be on my show because now I've got traction. I'm gonna try to make a little bit of cash from these folks. So I'm gonna charge anywhere from, we've seen anywhere from $50 all the way on to $50,000. I've even seen $200,000 asks. We believe that if the journalism is to be, and really that's what it is, it's a form of journalism, even though it's microjournalism in a lot of cases. If it's to maintain its integrity, they should not be charging to have you on. There's all kinds of ways to monetize podcasts and charging outside of it being a little bit crass, like, hey, gimme $50 and I'll interview you. It sets a really poor precedent. So we don't, generally speaking, allow our guests unless somebody specifically requests it. If someone's got a mission, I gotta be on this show, I'll pay whatever it takes, just get me on. Then we do that. I'm not happy about it, but we've done it a couple times if clients have like asked us and really they begged us and we begged them not to. But other than that, all the placements we get for people are not paid placements. And I think it's better. I'd rather be on a show with 50 people that are dedicated listening to the show where no one's getting paid, but it's a genuine conversation like me and you.

Yeah.

Than to be on a show that's got a million people reach and I've got to pay, you know, $10,000 to be on that show. It's not worth it. And we're cheap and we guarantee— this is the other difference. So the way PR used to work, I'm sure as you know, because you were in the PR business, is look, you've got a product or service that you want to sell, you hire a publicist, they're between $5,000 to $20,000 a month, and maybe they get you a hit, maybe they don't. We're very different. We're just under $1,500. So I think that's like maybe £1,200 a month. And we get you on unlimited bookings and we're guaranteed. So if we don't get you booked, you don't pay. So we are very incentivized to tell your story. The second part of it is, if they're asking you for money, that means your publicist or whoever's pitching you has done a crappy job, right? Either the show's not legit or they've done a crappy job of pitching you and the value proposition of having you on. Now, funny enough, a lot of the speakers that come to us, we've got to educate them because they think they should get paid to be on people's podcasts. And that's always a very interesting conversation too, where I explain to them, no, no, no, that's not how the world works anymore. You, unless you're, you got a big name. If you're Brad Pitt, then let's talk. I'll represent you for free and people will pay to have you on depending on what you're, what you're saying. But if you're not an A-lister, the hopes of you getting paid to be on a show are almost none, primarily because there's a list of 100 people that are free or willing to pay to be on that show.

And I think you've hit on a really good point about journalism. I don't charge people to come on this show because There should be a separation between editorial integrity and the commercial side. And, you know, if we see in traditional publishing those publishers that took cash for coverage, as we called it, the editorial eventually suffers because the people that are paying want to say their pitch, right? And the listeners eventually will understand that there's no objectivity or real conversation. So I'm glad that you are in that side. I think in the industry's long-term benefit, not paying for coverage. You can support the show by other ways, by sponsoring in an overtly, you know, in a transparent way. So I think that's fantastic that you're doing that. And Sheen, another topic to get your view on, and that is video, because about 9% of podcasts currently are also video. I personally do work with video at the same time because I think people want to watch things as much as listen. What's your view at Podcast Cola about The impact of video and the need for clients to be ready for video.

We'll be back after a quick break.

Would you like to double your salary without starting another business? The easy way to do this is to join the board of another company. You get well paid for a part-time role, you get all the credibility that comes with being a board member, plus you get to hang out with some very cool people and learn how other businesses are dealing with their problems. If you'd like to know more, if you'd like to learn how you get your first board seat within 60 days, just click on the link below as Unnoticed is a gold sponsor of our summit, so you get free tickets. Enjoy. I'll see you there.

Podcasting is video. So there's, you know, it's funny because in recent days, I've been telling people this for years, In fact, Apple Podcasts has been— Apple and Spotify together have been outdone by YouTube. YouTube is now the number one place where people are consuming podcast content. So the old school radio kind of philosophy is no longer a thing. So it's something to think about. And, you know, I'm sure you have it in your course. We've got a little thing where we do some media training for our clients as well. And we always tell them, we say like, even if you think it's gonna be radio, come video ready and make sure you record it if the host doesn't. And then you can at least distribute the video 'cause the video is everything now. People wanna see you, people wanna see the reactions, people wanna see exactly who it is who is Uh, giving them this message.

Yeah. And I think in this age of AI, you know, the sort of the authentic self is actually going to become even more important, and video is going to be even more important. If there's, um, a, uh, if you like, a common trait or maybe a mistake that you see people make, guests, uh, Shaheen, that you have to sort of spend a lot of time trying to help people correct, what would that be?

So I think the first thing is don't expect you're going to be great right away. I think, remember, to, to, to be great, it's a skill set. No one's born being great on podcasts. I'm sure me and you both sucked the first time we did it.

So still learning.

Make sure you practice, right? Second is, I'll tell you, Here's the interesting thing. I don't know how it works there in the UK, but I'll tell you in the US, right? So you go to a really good neighborhood and the houses are bought, people are buying and selling houses, and that's a really posh neighborhood. People are into it. And there's always one house on the corner that says for sale by owner. It's a nice house, but it's not selling, right? Because it's got one guy who hung up a shingle who's trying to save 50 cents by not paying the broker. So he wants to do it himself. What he doesn't realize is he's going to get even less because he doesn't have a professional representing him. Why? The professional has a network. The professional does this for a living. There's a reason why agents, managers, realtors, brokers, lawyers get paid so much for what they do. It's because they're good and they bring that much, if not more, value to you. So the biggest mistake you can make In podcasts is to represent yourself because you look like a chump. If I call you up and say, Jim, get me on your show. I'm amazing. I'm so cool. You'll be like, who is this guy? Right? But if my publicist reaches out and goes, Jim, I got someone amazing for you. They're about to do 3 other shows. But before that, I wanted to give you a chance to get them on. Your reaction is very different and there's a lot less friction. And you get a much higher ROI. So A, do it to get good at it and do as many as you can. And if you guys need help with that, we're podcastcola.com, reach out to us. And we're happy to book a strategy session with anybody who's listening to this. If you think being on podcasts, great shows like this are right for you. And 2 is have a professional represent you.

Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. Although what I have found with some agencies is that unless they've taken the time to know their client, which you plainly are doing, the agency can be motivated to, if you like, sort of shotgun pitches around. So your point about an agency is great, but just like in the PR business, you have to get a good agency to make it worthwhile. In terms of the traction that you mentioned that people are getting, yeah, can you maybe give some inspiration to somebody who's thinking, well, I'm thinking about it, but I'm not sure? Do you have like one example of a client, uh, what happened to them by being on shows, maybe, Shaheen?

Yeah, you know, look, 95% of our business here at Podcast Cult is probably the best example I could give. comes from me doing podcasts like this and talking to people like you. We've grown this company from an absolute zero startup to being a multimillion-dollar company. It'll probably be in the hundreds of millions in the next couple years and eventually get bought out by one of the big firms out there. I don't know, the Amazons, the Apples, the Spotifys, one of the big 5 will probably end up buying Podcast Cola and incorporating it into their ecosystem. For now, we operate still like a startup. And the way that we get clients is by people listening to me on shows. And that's been the primary source. I also have clients that are speakers, that their entire speaking book comes from them doing podcasts that we've gotten them on. I've got clients that are authors whose number one form of selling their book is by us getting them on podcasts. Now, nobody makes money from selling books, of course. But a book is a great calling card into consulting, into selling online courses, into selling higher-ticket items. So I think that's really the best answer.

Yeah, that's a great answer. So Shane, you've got your own book as well. I am going to ask you, you know, as a founder, serial entrepreneur as well, if there's a book or a podcast that you listen to or you've heard or that you've read recently that's made an impact. What guidance would you give us?

Yeah. So, as far as books go, I wrote this book actually, kind of interesting. I wrote this book called Billion: How I Became King of the Thrill Pill Cult, became a bestseller, and now they're making a film on it. And it's kind of my lessons as a teenager growing a company from $0 to $1 billion in revenue. So, if anybody's interested, I'm going to recommend my own book called Billion: How I Became King of the Thrill Pill Cult. It's one of my favorites. I guess if I had to pick a second book by a UK author, would be Unreasonable Success and How to Achieve It by Richard Koch, the guy who wrote The 80/20 Principle. Also great book.

Okay. Well, 2 great. So, we'll put links to your books in the show notes. And Shaheen Shahin, I know that you have to get off soon. So, if people want to reach out to get you, where can they come?

Super easy. Go to podcastcola.com. I'm Shahin, S-H-A-A-H-I-N, at podcastcola.com. But the best way really is to go on podcastcola.com, book a free strategy session, and we will be getting back to every single person who wants to be on shows and seeing if being a guest on podcasts might be right for you.

Well, you and I both have got a vested interest in that. Shahin, thank you so much for coming on the show.

James, honored to be on. Thank you, my friend.

Thank you very much. So, well, you've heard from one of the pioneers in the industry, and if anyone had any doubts about how large the industry is and how much impact being on podcasts can be, then those will have been absolutely dispelled today. So I'm grateful to Shaheen because as a podcast host myself, you know, I want everybody to appreciate the, the medium of podcasting and to and see what powerful platform it is for you as an entrepreneur. So if you've enjoyed this show, do please leave a review as always and share it with a fellow unnoticed entrepreneur because we don't want anyone to be left unnoticed. And until we meet again, I just encourage you to keep on communicating.