Revitalising a 111-year company with millions of clients; with Joe Hart, Global CEO of Dale Carnegie

Welcome to The Unnoticed Entrepreneur. This show will tell you how to get the recognition you and your business deserve. Our guests share their practical insights and tools which you can use straight away. Your host is international entrepreneur, podcast host, and author Jim James.

Hello and welcome to this amazing episode of The Unnoticed Entrepreneur because We've all, I'm sure, been touched by the amazing knowledge and wisdom of Dale Carnegie at some stage in our lives. And we're very blessed today to have Joe Hart, who's the global CEO of Dale Carnegie, on the line joining us from Detroit, Michigan. Joe, welcome to the show.

Thank you, Jim. Great to be with you.

Well, it's wonderful. I mean, it's an honor really because Dale Carnegie is one of really the foremost thinkers in management theory. How to Win Friends and Influence People being obviously one of the first ones that I've read. Joe, tell us about the Dale Carnegie business now as it operates. And we're going to then talk about how you've taken over the business and really rejuvenated it because it's 111 years old, but it's still going strong with franchisees and partners around the world. So Joe, tell us a little bit about the Dale Carnegie business that you're running.

Yeah, thank you, Jim. It's great to be with you again. And it's an incredible business founded by Dale Carnegie in 1912. I mean, today we are in 86 countries, we've got 200 operations. As you mentioned, we're franchised, which means we've got these amazing franchisees who are in cities and states and countries all over the world, really, who are leading our Dale Carnegie connection with our customers, and at the same time are working together, working together as one global company. To deliver Dale Carnegie's programs. The Dale Carnegie Course, which has been iconic, taken by just tens of millions of people, and even today is something that remains one of the most popular business programs. People around the world are taking it. It's about unlocking greatness and helping people communicate and have better interpersonal skills and manage stress and worry, be leaders, develop self-confidence. And then other programs that we have, like High Impact Presentations, being a powerful presenter, being a leader, being a salesperson, you know, different kinds of things that we have.

So Joe, I know that you are an entrepreneur before being brought in by the board of Dale Carnegie. So you already had a successful e-learning business of your own. Before that, you're an attorney. And today you're going to share with us, you know, how you've really taken this established brand but rejuvenated it. Because so many companies sort of have a story arc, no matter how good the core product is, but you've managed to sort of breathe new life into it. So, let's talk about when you came into the company back in 2015 and took over the company, Joe. What were some of the challenges that you had in coming into such an established organization and giving it, if you like, a new vision and sharing that with everybody?

So, in 2015, one of the reasons I came to the company is because it had so deeply impacted me personally. I mean, as a young lawyer, I took a program. Completely changed my career path. I left the practice of law and actually went into business. So I had this deep affinity and appreciation for Dale Carnegie. And when I took over, the company was in a good position. And at the same time, I just thought to myself, we really need to make sure— there were 2 objectives. One was around the brand. How do we really activate the brand? That means modernizing it, making it even more relevant for people. So we did that. It was not just a global rebranding, but also around the thought leadership and the messaging and the connecting with the customer and having research that we were conducting around the world. And then also just culturally, how do we get ourselves working as one global team, which we've been able to do really effectively. Part of that has involved technology. We've had a complete technology overhaul of the business, which we're continuing to build on right now. Our digital transformation, particularly during COVID has been significant. But, you know, a lot of this was coming into a company that did have a certain way of doing things for a long time. And even though we teach change, sometimes change can be hard. So one of the biggest challenges I had was really mobilizing a company that had been successful around the imperative of really taking command, so to speak, taking command of what we were doing, being intentional about our branding. So it really did involve a lot of change management, if you will. And frankly, Listening on my part, really getting with our franchisees and our Dale Carnegie and Associates team and understanding the opportunities that people saw in the business. We have a belief in Dale Carnegie, something we teach, which is that people support a world they help create. So from my standpoint, rather than coming in and saying, all right, here's what we're going to do, I spent a number of months really just listening and understanding and developing that foundation of support, which enabled us then ultimately to move much more quickly. in the months and years to come.

Joe, when you said you did the listening, it'd be lovely to hear the sequence of that listening because you have teams, I imagine, that are employed within the organization. Then you have these franchises. I think you mentioned over 80 countries. I think you mentioned, Joe.

Yes.

How did you go about that? And what sort of questions were you asking people?

So even before I started, I guess one of the things I gained from Dale Carnegie was really just a deep appreciation for how to connect with other people and understanding that when someone new is coming into an organization, there can be fear, there could be insecurity, there could be defensiveness, there could be all kinds of things. So my first objective was really even just to start to connect with people at a personal level. So even before I started, the board had sent out an announcement But I had created a series of videos because I felt like that was the— but this is before I started and sent these videos out about who was I and what Dale Carnegie meant to me and my little bit about my vision for the business and so forth. And then once I started, I immediately started to meet with our franchisees. I traveled in different parts of the world, I held Zoom meetings. So I think I probably talked voice to voice to 60-70% of our franchisees. In over a period of several months, and really just tried to ask. And so the questions I was asking were: first of all, I was thanking them because they had given so much to taking Dale Carnegie's message to their regions, and asking them: so what do you see as the opportunities here? Because often, I think there can be this mindset which is people at a higher level, so to speak, a hierarchy. If you're the corporate, the home office, they know. But it's really often it's the people who are in the field, and our franchisees are interacting with our customers. So they have great wisdom and great observation. So I really went to them and told them that, and then listened. And from what they told me, it shaped my thinking about really the plan that we need to develop, which we ultimately did. We called it the Foundation Strategy, which we put into place for about 4 years before kind of moving to an Elevation Strategy. But the franchisees and our DCNA team members were all very important in telling me and helping me see some of the really great opportunities that we had.

That's fascinating, Joe. And when you did that, did you travel around as well? I know we had COVID. Were you able to get face-to-face, or did you find you were able to get enough sort of depth in the conversations by using digital means?

Yeah, yeah, that's a great question. And fortunately, at that time it was pre-COVID, so I was able to both travel and use digital means. But your point is really a good one because we're spread all over the world. There were just some places I mean, just from a logistics standpoint, it didn't make sense to try to get to right away. So, in those cases, I did Zoom. Where I could travel, I traveled, but I had extensive travel both in the United States and internationally. So, I know in that first, let's call it first 6 months, I went to Latin America, I went to Europe, I went to Asia, I was within different parts of the United States. I'd say probably 80/20, I reached far more people Well, that's not true. We had conferences in some of those places, but I met a lot of people in advance via Zoom, and then I met them in person when we had these regional conferences.

So, Joe, that's wonderful because one of the guests I've had on, Oscar Trimboli, has talked about the power of listening and the importance of that. And you've really undertaken a textbook example there of listening to the organization first. You mentioned you built a foundation plan and then an elevation plan. Could you share with us from a communications point of view how you rolled that out to the end audience, to those people that actually go and take the courses? Because the franchisees are obviously key stakeholders, but you also need for those people that have sort of grown up and maybe fallen in love with Dale Carnegie to feel secure that it's changing maybe to be relevant, but not losing its core premise. How did you go about that, Joe?

I think that came mostly through the branding part of the work that we're doing. So the foundation, one of the points in the foundation plan was that We wanted to really reactivate, if you will, the brand. And so, for that part of it, we dealt very closely. We involved many end consumers and corporate clients and that type of thing as we worked to make sure that we had resonance with the type. I mean, it's a very difficult thing to think about, not just the logo and the look and feel, but just even the messaging and all those things on a global basis to have something that's gonna resonate all over the world. And we really, I think, did a good job of interacting with the customers and listening to them and so forth, as well as the franchisees. The rest of the foundation plan, a lot of that involved going to our network and to our, again, the franchisor, being a franchisor, the team that I work with most closely, and then our franchisees who I also work with, but they're the ones who are in the field. But it really was to say, we talked together for many months, and here's what I heard you say. What I heard you say is that the challenge is this, and that the opportunity is this. So, here's what we're going to do. And I think that people felt that when they heard that, ultimately, the direction we were going embraced a high percentage of what they had said. So, it was a very reasonable thing, I think, for people to say, you know, I can get on board with this.

And I think, Joe, before that, you'd also built some trust, hadn't you? Because you'd shared before we started recording about sharing videos in advance if you're going to meet people. Do you want to share what you'd done to If you like, build your own backstory because you'd come in not from the— you weren't an internal hire, an external hire. So do you want to share with us how you used your own backstory to build trust?

So one of the things that we teach in Dale Carnegie is that people should talk about those things they've earned the right to talk about, right? That they're eager to share, they're excited about. And for me, and so that really comes down to authenticity. And I've found, especially over the years, as I've given more presentations and speeches that people really want authenticity. So I tried at that point just to be who I was. And the fact is that Dale Carnegie had a huge impact on me. And I actually, I shared my story, the fact that I had left the practice of law because I was so influenced by what I, I'd learned in Dale Carnegie. When I took my first corporate job out of the law, I accelerated in that position. I was promoted twice in 2 years. I was a director in the company because I learned so many skills about how to interact with people effectively in Dale Carnegie. I practiced those skills. So I shared some of my story with them. One of the most important meetings I had in building trust was in June of 2015. Our franchise owners were having international meeting in Chicago, and I was invited to speak with them. And I did, and I kind of laid out my vision. But when I told them about why I'd come to Dale Carnegie, I literally started to get choked up. I couldn't speak because I was so emotional. And I think people just really appreciated that I had a heart and a caring for them and for the business and for our customers. And that connection has been very important. And I feel that even more today. I love our customers. I love our franchisees, our team members, Dale Carnegie Associates. I'm just so humbled and grateful to be part of this organization.

So is it fair to ask you, just from a statistics point of view, how many people are we talking about? You've mentioned about 86 countries, how many franchises and how many people take a Dale Carnegie course or read a book every year? Can you give us an idea of scale?

I wish I could give you something that was specific. The systems are such that I don't know what the total number of, say, people who read a book and that type of thing. What I can tell you is that in Dale Carnegie, we've got thousands of employees around the world impacting, I'd say, hundreds of thousands of people around the world in some way through some Dale Carnegie program or talk or whatever it would be. So, and tens of millions of people have I don't even know, read How to Win Friends and Influence People. It's been a bestseller for 87 consecutive years. So it's a book that is one of the best-known iconic books ever written.

Joe, yeah, I put you on the spot a little bit there, but I mean, just the scale of Dale Carnegie is amazing. What an amazing thing. But now speaking of books, you've also then taken initiative to introduce a book yourself, building on the Dale Carnegie sort of philosophies. Can you just explain about that? Because you're not only sort of invigorating the brand of Dale Carnegie with some of the original teachings, but moving the brand forward with some fresh perspectives on those things. Do you want to share about those, Joe?

Well, thank you for asking. The book is called Take Command, which is really about being intentional. And it's built on Dale Carnegie's ideas. And part of what the need that we saw was that there are so many people who know the name How to Win Friends or whatnot. But there's a young generation, particularly, let's call it, who just have never heard of these things. And so, the thought was, let's build on Dale Carnegie's principles and let's deal with the kind of problems and challenges that they have in their lives today with stories that are from diverse people all over the world. So, Take Command is about taking command first of your thoughts and your emotions. I think particularly about 20- to 45-year-old people who might struggle with the fear and the insecurity and the imposter syndrome and comparison trap and all these different kinds of things. How do they become resilient and courageous so that they can live the lives that they want? That's built on Dale Carnegie's How to Stop Worrying and Start Living. You've got take command of your relationships. It's like, how do I build really strong relationships with people? So much of our lives are built on the quality of our relationships, whether I'm successful at work or not, or with my family. So, that's based on How to Win Friends and Influence People. And then, the third part, take command of your future. One of the things we found in our research is that the number one thing people regret on their deathbeds is that they weren't true to themselves, that they didn't take the chances, that they weren't courageous, they were afraid. So why not focus right now? And the book is a blueprint that takes people through taking command of your thoughts and your emotions, your relationships and your future.

Joe, that sounds like a really wonderful way of addressing the younger audience's needs for guidance now, which is Also though, in different formats, isn't it? You've got the book, but if you like, how are you making it accessible to this young generation, many of whom, my daughters included, would struggle, I think, with a long-form book? They're used to digital formats, especially those that were born in the digital age. How are you taking that message out to, if you like, the non-traditional reader?

Yeah, it's interesting because people do consume information very differently, particularly your daughters, my kids, that generation. So we are working on reaching them through various digital media, short-form videos and other kinds of things. But ultimately, we are hopeful. The book is written in a way that's easy for people to read. We've gotten great reviews on the book from people of all ages. Lots of stories. People like stories. This is not complex reading. It's very easy to read. The great stories of people, their situations that people can relate to. So if people are going to read a book, we've tried to make this one that would be A fun, engaging one for them.

Okay, Joe, that's really great. So really, you've sort of modernized some of the syntax and the vernacular and make it accessible. It's wonderful, Joe. Now, Joe, you're the CEO of one of the world's largest improvement companies, self-improvement companies. I have to ask, because I do ask if there's anything that hasn't gone quite according to plan ever since you took over Dale Carnegie. Is there something that you can share that was a learning for those of us that Would aspire to run the sort of organization that you're running, but may have been a mistake or something that you go, well, we would have done that differently?

Yeah, actually a couple things, you know. Now, and you prompted me to think of something, and this goes back even to my first, my startup, or the second company I was involved with before I came to Dale Carnegie. And that is often my expectation about how long things are going to take or how easy they're going to be is wrong. And so my hope had been to have inspired change faster at Dale Carnegie. It took longer than I thought. I think for many years, I was frustrated that why can't I get this to move faster? And the reality is that particularly when you're dealing with a larger organization or just people and change, there is a foundation that has to happen. So at the end of the day, I think all the things that we did were critical. And I'm so proud of our global team. When it came to COVID, we completely flipped the business. This business might not have been here if it hadn't been for the agility, the global agility, and the willingness of our team to go from that in-person training to dynamic, interactive online training that today has fueled the company coming out of COVID stronger, more competitive than before. So, I think my expectations about what was going to be involved or how quickly it would take or those kinds of things Probably needed to be calibrated a little bit differently.

Joe, that's a wonderful and very nuanced response too. Joe, if people would like to know from you one thing that really has worked as you've moved hearts and minds within the Dale Carnegie organization, both internally and externally, obviously your force of personality has been amazing, but is there one thing that you'd recommend to the unnoticed entrepreneur other than patience that they could do or they should do to get noticed for their business?

So one of the most important things that any leader needs to do is to create a vision that people can rally around. And it's often easier to say than it is to achieve. But I think about my young startup, and, you know, if it was raising funds or hiring employees or going to customers with a PowerPoint or a less than viable product. And the same thing was true in the second business. And the same thing is true at Dale Carnegie. So much of life involves how we assess other people and the trust that we have and so forth. And when we can create a compelling vision, when we can align other people, get people excited about it, and back that up by a commitment and action so that there's integrity, that's ultimately what it takes, I think, to move and to create something.

Joe, that's another wonderful answer. Thank you so much. Joe Hart, CEO of the Dale Carnegie Organization. Thank you so much for joining me today from Detroit, Michigan.

Thank you. Thank you for having me, Jim. Great to be with you.

Well, what an amazing opportunity to have an insight into an amazing organization that I'm sure has touched us all. So you were listening to Joe Hart. Of course, I'll put a link in the show notes how you can get a hold of him. And of course, I will share the show notes as well. And if you've enjoyed this, please do share it with a fellow unnoticed entrepreneur. And if you've got a chance to review, that would be wonderful. And until we meet again, I just do encourage you to keep on communicating. Thanks for tuning in.