Should you make your interviewer laugh, and when a doctor freezes on the mic what happens next?

People learn by storytelling. People especially learn by hearing about other people's mistakes or about funny things. So if you can find some entertaining anecdotes to get your point across and tell a story, there's a couple of things that are going to happen. One, you're going to have more fun. You're going to get more engagement from the reporter or the host or the producer. You're going to get your point across. And guess what? You'll probably get asked back.

Hello and welcome to this episode of the Unnoticed Show. I'm very lucky to have Alex Greenwood joining me all the way from Missouri. Alex, hi, how you doing?

Jim, I'm wonderful, wonderful. And, uh, where are you, in a garden shed somewhere? What's going on there?

I'm in the TARDIS, aka Time and Relative Dimension in Space. I am otherwise known as Shed Radio, Alex. Yeah, it's, it's not glamorous, but it is cozy. I'm here with Binky, so if you hear snoring, it's not me, it's the beagle by my side. But Alex, you're going to keep us all awake, I know, because you're a PR guy. You're an author. You also have two podcasts, and you and I are going to talk about something you've just written about, which is how to be a good guest. Can we just talk about your background very briefly? But if someone's unnoticed, Alex, how can they use a podcast or an interview with the media to get noticed?

I'll spare you all the boring stuff about me, other than to say former journalist, been doing PR for about 25, 26 years. But who's counting? Been podcasting off and on since 2006, and I'm a frequent guest on television locally and radio and podcasts. Yes, of course. And thanks again for having me on your show. And, but the thing that people that I work with the most need to learn the most or ask me the most about is, oh my gosh, what if our public relations efforts or our media outreach efforts or our podcast outreach efforts are successful? What now? Now the real panic begins because I have to sit in the chair or go to the studio or get on Zoom and give an interview. And so what I do is offer some tips that I think will get them over the hump and keep them calm and actually make the most Now, what would be, after 25 years, some of the sort of dos and don'ts that you've written about?

Because we all know that for clients, getting in front of the media is both highly anticipated but also highly stressful. How do you help prepare people first, Alex? Let's start there.

The first thing is that, that people need to practice a little bit if they've never done it before. All right, for me, it's not a big deal. The local TV, about once a month, they ask me to pick a topic and come on and talk about it on their morning show, and that's fine by me. I can do that. But if you're just starting out doing this, it's not something you should just wing it. You should be prepared because even though your segment may only be 4 minutes, that can be an eternity if you zone out or forget what you're there to talk about. And I've seen this happen. I've had physicians and very learned people put on TV who are like, I'm fine, I don't need to practice. And they've zoned out. The deer in the headlights is a real thing. So what I tell people, the, the most important thing, even more than how you look, the clothes you wear, is to make sure you have your— Script. Thoughts down. I tell people, I call it the rule of 3s. Have 3 points, 3 salient points about what you're trying to talk about ready. And when I say points, I don't just mean bullet points. Have 3 good anecdotes if possible. People learn by storytelling. People especially learn by hearing about other people's mistakes or about funny things. So if you can find some entertaining anecdotes to get your point across and tell a story, There's a couple of things that are going to happen. One, you're going to have more fun. You're going to get more engagement from the reporter or the host or the producer. You're going to get your point across. And guess what? You'll probably get asked back.

Yeah. Now, before you go on the TV or the radio, you're obviously a past master at this. You get your own messaging down with your rule of 3. What do you advise in terms of people getting to understand the medium first, Alex? Because if they're going to go on TV or radio, it's like going into a social setting without knowing who else is going to be there.

That's a great point, Jim.

Yeah.

The first thing, especially if let's talk, just talk to the traditional news media first, not podcasting necessarily. That's a little bit different, but the traditional news media, let's say you're going to get interviewed on your local television station. Let's just say that the thing to remember is this is a golden opportunity. That's not just handed out to anybody. They have a certain amount of time for every episode. It has to be usually when Talking about my local media, the first question they want to know is, is it going to be local? Is your story related to the local area that the viewers are in? They want to make sure it's that. And they also want to make sure, can you speak? Can you do these things? Do you present well? All these things. So the thing I always tell everybody, if I'm pitching a client, I often have to, to the producer, I often have some kind of tape ready to show them. And that may be a podcast. That may be just a YouTube video they did on their website where they look their best. They're confident. They're looking in the camera. They're telling a story. A little audition reel, if you, for want of a better term, is a great thing to have. But you've got to understand it from the media's perspective. If you look like what we might call a dud, you might look like somebody who's never done anything like this before, who you might, who might potentially be a deer in the headlights. You might freeze. It's a lot easier for them to say, I don't think so. So what I tell people all the time is remember news presenters, producers, reporters, they don't know anywhere near as much about your subject matter as you do. So if you can come off as confident, well-prepared, you look good on camera as best you can. And you understand to them that there's 3 or 4 minutes in your segment and you're there to really do a job, which is to, one, make sure that you fill in all the gaps for them. Answer a lot of questions that are probably strange and out of left field to you, but you always have to remember reporters don't know anywhere near about what they're talking— what you're talking about than you do. So they're going to ask questions. So just always be prepared to— I don't say answer or have questions, answers ready. It's a child speaking to you, but definitely have it as somebody who clearly has never heard about what you do, or maybe has heard about what you do.

Mm-hmm.

But has a misconception. So there's a lot of ways to prepare, but the most important thing there is to really demonstrate ahead of time as you're trying to get on a show, as you're trying to get interviewed, that you know what you're talking about and you're not going to leave them hanging. That's a really important thing.

Yeah, and I suppose then you've got you sharing information about you, and then there's also doing a little bit of research about the media or the show or the journalists that you're going to go and talk to. Alex, what preparation or what tools do you help your clients to use to get ready To actually know and pitch properly with the audience that they're gonna be talking to.

It's important that they watch the program or this. I was fortunate enough to be invited on The Unnoticed and I listened to a couple of shows because I wanted to get your tone and I wanted to get the lay of the land on how the show goes. I understand it's a 20-minute show and I'm a chatty person, so I better be concise as possible so I can get as much in there as I can. And that's good because when you have a good host, that's important. That's the host's job. Your job is to provide information. But the main thing though is that I, if you're consuming it a little bit beforehand, viewing it beforehand, the information you're watching a program beforehand or reading a reporter's column, if it's going to be a print reporter or listening to a radio program, you're going to know what to expect. And that's going to take your tension level down too, by the way. Just knowing, just getting ready for this podcast, for example, I know Jim's show is 20 minutes. These are the things he likes to cover. We're going to, we're going to log on before we record and chat for a little bit just to establish a nice rapport. All those things brought the temperature down for me, even though I've done a lot of these kinds of interviews. It's always a challenge because You don't know, and the less you know, the more your anxiety can go up. So I also think it's great when you're on TV. Let's say you get that and you're being shown into the studio. I assume soon, right here where we are, where I go on a monthly appearance, I'm doing it via Zoom. I assume eventually they're going to open the studio back up and I can go back in. What's really great when they're miking you up and they're sitting you down on the set and the commercial's playing or another story's playing and you say to the host, by the way, The other day, that guest who was talking about how to macrame a t-shirt into a potted plant holder, I thought that was fantastic. And they'll laugh.

And I like the macrame as well. Yeah, that was one of my, one of my favorites.

But what's amusing to me about that too is these hosts, they do so many of these shows and they have so many guests, they've already forgotten that. But they're going to be really happy though that you obviously took the time to watch the show and tell them, I like your work. It just helps your rapport immensely.

Now let's just think about something when you're talking about podcasts. Listening to you moving forwards and backwards as we're talking, the sound comes and goes as well. Yeah. Do you want to just do that again?

I don't even know what you're talking about, Jim. Really? What is the big deal here? What are you saying?

See, Alex is moving simply just forward and backwards in his chair, and you can hear the difference in the mic. In your article that you've just written, which is on your Medium website, Depository. You have a number of tools and tips, Alex, don't you, for people going onto podcasts in the same way that we used to have tips for going on TV about what to wear, what not to wear, how to cut your hair and stuff like that. Do you wanna take us through a few of your knowns and unknowns for podcast guesting?

I will. And I'll say this, by the way, it's hard to believe that I've been doing this forever, but I still get so excited. I do move around a bit and it does kind of mess with the audio a little bit. So just goes to show you folks, everybody's got their thing they gotta work on. Jim is extraordinarily good. Jim is really sidled up to the mic and he's not moving, and that way his sound quality is just spot-on perfect.

It's also a function of having a very small studio. I haven't got a lot of places to move to. You've got the luxury of a nice big space. I— if I move, I might fall out of the shed, but go ahead.

Or disturb your dog.

But no, space. Let's talk about Managing your mic presence and things like that.

Jim made a great point, listeners, that about 3 inches away. And I— here's the thing, I, before the show, I always insist that our guests on our shows, Mysterious Goings-On and PR After Hours, the things I ask them to do, there's some things I'm very picky about. And one of— besides telling their network that they're going to do the show, tell their social media, I'm going to be on PR After Hours, and then afterward, here's the link to PR After Hours, please go listen, because I view the show as a partnership between us and the guest. Besides that though, just getting set up before all that, the audio setup, as Jim's talking about, one of the main reasons people stop listening to a podcast is because the audio is just lousy. And yeah, me bopping around here is probably a little annoying, but the worst things I think are when people record in a loud place. And people don't think about that, but it could be anything from a continually— not your dog, Jim— but a continually barking dog to children playing. Typing really loud during the interview. My goodness, I've even had people eating during an interview. It's true. And I've had to say, hey, maybe put the burrito aside until after. We're going to be done here in just a minute.

They were taking your show seriously then, Alex?

I think I'm apparently, I'm a little too laid back and they just thought, hey man, this guy's whatever. He's just laid back. I am not the Big Lebowski of podcasters though. So I've had to snap that back, but yeah, taking it seriously. But that's one thing. But the one thing I tell them, I say, Look, I don't expect you, if you're going to be on my pod, to go out and buy a fancy microphone.

Okay.

I don't particularly— less and less. And there's so many good cheap USB microphones out there now. If you intend to be on a lot of podcasts, I suggest you get one. You're going to sound better. You're going to look more professional. But anyway, I get a lot of authors on Mysterious Goings-On and they do some media about once or twice a year when there's a new book or whatever. And so they're only on maybe a couple of dozen shows. And if they don't really want to invest in a mic, I say most smartphones come with a good set of earbuds with a mic built in. That is leaps and bounds better than just talking into the internal mic of your computer. And I have had guests argue with me. So I sound fine. Alex, please don't be this way. I sound fine. I'm like, I can hear you. It's great that I can hear you. And they say, I do Zoom calls all the time. Nobody says they can't hear me. I said, that's fine. But remember, podcasting is an intimate medium and people usually have earbuds in when they're listening to it. That means Every creak of your chair. That means every bit of vocal fry. That means all this stuff is right there. And that's one reason why Jim says, Alex, stop moving around. But the other part is, if you're just talking into an internal mic, it— at best, I think it's hard on the ears, for particularly if you do a show that's more than a few minutes. I think that the listeners have it. But at worst, I think you're shouting in a storm cellar, basically.

Yeah.

The other reason I say that is put some earbuds in because you don't want the echo of your internal speakers giving feedback on your mic. That sounds awful. The program, one of the programs I use to record tells me when people sign off of an episode, by the way. And I've just done a little back-of-the-envelope look at some of my episodes where I knew the, uh, the quality was— sound quality wasn't so great. The guest was fine, but the sound quality wasn't so great.

Those are the ones that get abandoned The statistics show that people will happily watch a movie where the pictures are not good, but they will leave a movie if the audio is bad. There is some accommodation that we'll put up with because the mind will make up more of the images, but it won't make up the music. So we have to think about the audio. And also, I think this other point though, Alex, about knowing what it is that you want to communicate is really important, isn't it? Because you touched on a very key point that I found with clients. They expect the journalists or the podcast host to know their domain as well as they do. And the journalist is often— is really doing us a favor by being a conduit to their audience. And so I think we also have to balance out our expectations about what they're willing to ask and what they're willing to understand. What about if you're coaching your clients, Alex, to address the kinds of audience that they want to? How do you help them to if you like, decide how to pitch, whether it's going to be a very technical story or it's going to be a very sales story or a very corporate story? Because you mentioned about having 3 stories in your arsenal. Can you give us some guidance on how you help them to prepare not 3 of the same stories, but 3 different stories that are interesting?

The first thing though, Jim, as you, as you well know, is that our job in public relations as consultants is to make sure we don't waste The news media's time or our client's time pitching them to outlets that just really don't— this doesn't work. This morning show I do locally, it's more of a lifestyle kind of thing. And I talk about social media and how to use it and tips like we're talking about today, that kind of thing. But I had a client who, who was into negotiating with the IRS. Now I thought, hey, this is an example of me not being real smart on this, I guess. I thought, oh, the IRS. Well, everybody has to file their taxes. But what was— what I didn't understand was that this show, yeah, people, they would like some tips on dealing with the IRS, but the client was more about dealing with the IRS if you're in arrears of your taxes for several years and like you're on— you're in danger of going to jail. And they're like, basically in a nice way saying, Alex, don't harsh our buzz at 9 o'clock in the morning. People are drinking coffee and we're talking about going to jail. And it was a valuable lesson for me. I think the thing is that if you're working, if you're doing it yourself especially, but if you're working with a PR person, is to make sure that you both agree, okay, this business radio outlet is a really great place for me to go to talk about being in arrears with the IRS, right? This business publication, this business-related deal. I also worked for— with a national pest control company, and it was basically— let's— they were basically mail order. They would mail you the ingredients, you would combine them at home, and you would do your pest control. It would save you money. It's a lot like all these things, especially during lockdown that occurred, where people weren't Having stuff delivered. And that actually started getting traction because it was timely and it worked with just about every part of the media. So that's the other thing too. I told you earlier that when we're selecting media, if it's local media, there should be a good local angle to it. So you need to be able to— this question I get often, Jim, I don't know if you do, but when I'm pitching, let's say a local TV station again, they'll say, is there anybody locally who's used this? Is there— Is there a restaurant that uses this? Is there a business that uses where we could go out and get some B-roll so we could get some video of this so we can interview other people besides you and your expert? So that's important thing to keep in mind. If it's local, localize it as much as you can and have a story of a client. Talk to them ahead of time and say, "Hey, listen, I'm gonna try to talk to Channel Five about this. I'd love to mention that you're using our service and you love it, and maybe they could interview you." Now, most of the time they'll be like. Let's do it, because they get some free publicity out of it. But you ask that ahead of time. And then when you're pitching a producer, you say, oh, and by the way, Jim over at ABC, blah, blah, blah, he's gonna— he's available to talk to you about it too and give you more information about it. So that's what I like to do, is to make sure that it's not just me, but I can have some third-party credibility going on with some other folks. So those are some things you need to think about. The biggest tip I can give is put yourself in their chair. And Jim, you're really good at this. Like, and we've already talked about this, they're doing you a favor. And remember, They are not an expert on everything that you are. So if you want them to help you by putting you on their program or in their publication, knock down every potential objection they would have to interviewing you and using it. So that means say ahead of time, I have all these assets I can share with you, video assets, other people you can interview. I can bring it all to you. I can give you free samples. I can do all these things, knock down every objection, and then make sure you remind them, oh, here it's local. It's timely. There's something called newsjacking, which sounds like a A harsh word, but if there is a big story that is consuming everybody's life right now, and there almost always is, right? Every week there's something, and this lockdown and the pandemic sadly has been one. If you can find an angle that can ride along with the news cycle, that puts you in even greater stead with the news media.

And then, Alex, after you've been on the show, then is there anything that someone should do to make sure that there's a good follow-through?

Jim, great question. Remember to share the links to your appearance on all your social media and channels and newsletters. And this, seriously, people look at me funny, but a thank you email to the producers or host of the podcast or the news media that you appear on is a nice touch, especially if you tell them you shared the links to it. And by the way, even traditional news media, they're in the game now. They want clicks. If you say, hey, I shared links to the YouTube of our interview on my social media, that's really beneficial. And it's just It's just a nice thing to do. Just remember, being prepared, thoughtful, and easy to work with is what most of what it takes to be a good guest. And that, of course, bring value to the show with your expertise.

Alex, if people want to newsjack you, hijack you to help them with their story, how can they come and find a fellow PR person that's worked over 25 years, 2 podcasts? Managing one, I think, is a challenge. Managing 2 is inspirational. How do people get ahold of Alex Greenwood in Missouri?

Managing 2 might be insanity actually, but you can find me at alexgpr.com. And again, my PR show is PR After Hours and my writing and creativity podcast is Mysterious Goings-On, but it's easy to find me through Alex G. I'm on Twitter at @a_greenwood as well.

Alex, thank you for coming on and sharing your wisdom on how to get noticed if you are unnoticed. Thank you, Alex Greenwood, all the way from Missouri for joining us on The Unnoticed Show today.

My pleasure, sir.

Thank you for joining me, Jim James, on the Unnoticed Show, and I hope that you found it useful. I'm on a mission to help business owners to unlock the value in their businesses through communications and getting noticed. If you've enjoyed this show, do please share it with other business owners, rate it on iTunes or on other players as well. For articles written about each podcast and other topics to do with getting noticed, just come to my website, eastwestpr.com, subscribe to the free weekly newsletter. Keep on communicating and let me know how you're getting on.