This once illegal profession can be more profitable, according to Dr Daniel Bai

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Hello and welcome to this episode of The Unnoticed Entrepreneur with me, Jim James, here. And today we're going to Chicago, Illinois to talk to Dr. Daniel Bay, who has a business called Close for Chiro, which is kind of a niche consultancy that he's built over the last decade, helping The oppressed race of chiropractors out there. Yeah, and I didn't realize they were an oppressed industry, but he's going to tell us why, how he helps them to make more money without trying to find more clients. Dr. Daniel, welcome to the show. Thanks for joining me.

Jim, good morning. Thank you for having me on, and congratulations with all your successes and what a great podcast you have.

Oh, you're too kind. And you know, the show is a success because I have amazing guests like yourself, really. I'm just really the conduit for your knowledge to my fellow unnoticed entrepreneurs. I take no credit whatsoever. But we're going to hear about you and about how you're helping chiropractors around the world— you said Middle East, Tennessee as well, and Asia— to grow their practice. So why not tell us how you do that, and then we're going to come on to how you as an entrepreneur have been building your own business. So first of all, Close for Chiro, tell us about it.

Sure, Jim. Closer Chiro is a B2B consultancy specifically for the chiropractic industry. It is an unlikely industry that most people talk about. It's an industry that people don't really see as a business leader worldwide, but there are a tremendous amount of altruistic practitioners out there who struggle really building a brand and a business after a certain point. And it's very frustrating for them because they have so much talent, so much knowledge, and so much altruism, and we see it just get wasted. So we help those particular practitioners scale up their businesses and their practices with the least amount of stress and avoiding the same pitfalls that other small businesses have struggled throughout the decades in any industry for that matter. And we focus on the patient onboarding because we believe the onboarding is the key to this whole thing. So if you don't know how to sell and present what you do in an effective manner, that's in the perspective of your clients or your patients, You're going to get sunk. And that's what we've been doing for the last 12 years. And we are having a ball.

I know that a lot of chiropractors and many people in the health sector wrestle with selling what they believe to be almost a service. So Daniel, do you want to just go through what do you do? Is it a mindset? Is it a technology? Is it a branding exercise? Help us with Close4Chiro, how you help them get across the chasm.

Sure. And that's a great question because how we do things is just, if not more important than what we do, because I am also a product of a lot of failed consulting myself. I've spent over a quarter million dollars trying to learn the things that I needed to do to serve more people and to increase my business and all those things. And I failed because it started off with A mindset. Now, I'm not saying mindset's bad. I'm saying for me, it just didn't work because I'm a pragmatist by the core. I'm an engineer of things. I remember pulling apart a floppy disk drive when I was 12, cuz I wanted to know how it worked. That's me. And I'm sure I'm not the only one out there. So the way we approach this is we keep it very pragmatic. Hey, this is what you do. Step 1. Step 2 and step 3. Now, teaching steps is not just where it ends. We have to tell them, because I'd like to know, why am I doing step 1? And then why am I doing step 2? And if we can make that stuff as comprehensive and as cohesive as possible, the people where we're teaching, they understand, oh, this is why I do this. This is why this is timed a certain way. This is why the sequence is so important. Oh, wait a second. Sales isn't as sleazy and browbeating as I thought. Actually, it's just teaching me how to have an appropriate conversation where the center of the conversation is based off of the person in front of me, not my product, not my solution yet, and certainly not me personally.

Daniel, you've mentioned before that the chiropractic industry is an oppressed industry. What do you mean by that? Because I wouldn't have known that. And also, what's the impact then on the mindset of these practitioners that you're helping?

That's a great question. We are an oppressed industry, and for the past over 100 years, things, people, places, other industries have been trying to snuff out this industry since the very beginning. The history of chiropractic is made for TV drama, and anyone that's out there is just Too short of a podcast to go over, but we're talking about people being jailed for practicing, quote, without a license. We're talking about a huge antitrust lawsuit in the '70s, Wilk versus AMA, that ensued, which chiropractic persevered and won. And so since then, the brand equity in chiropractic has suffered because of that. So I've always said, if there's any other industry that came under the same scrutiny and the same attacks as we did for the past 100 years, They would not be in existence. Somehow chiropractic has survived and is now still thriving. Why is that? Well, maybe because the practice of chiropractic itself is legitimate. Maybe because we're providing a service and a solution to people that other industries cannot touch nor want to touch. And so the results speak for themselves there. But this is certainly not where we want it to be after 100 years. I mean, we're still only seeing less single-digit percentage of the population. That is a travesty. It is certainly one of the best healthcare products in the world, along with others. And there's no reason why you should be stifled that way. So, the industry itself acts like an oppressed society, like any other oppressed society in history. They're very insecure. They're always wanting to prove themselves when they don't need to prove themselves. And so, they make a lot of these business mistakes, which actually has an effect on their overall business. And part of our job is to kind of deprogram them from this oppressed state, this poverty mentality of, Getting chiseled every single time, not embracing the finances, which is just a given in a business, but for some reason they want to just shy away from it. And Jim, you just told me a story off camera about you almost losing a client because you didn't invoice them. I mean, that is a classic mistake, and that's something that we're trying to help the industry with.

Fascinating. Yeah, because I've used chiropracting and acupuncture as well for some illness issues that I faced over the years. So maybe living in Asia, I was quite used to the kind of alternative medicine practices from a From a communications perspective though, Dr. Daniel Bey, tell us, how do you help these chiropractic practitioners to get scale then? You're addressing the mindset, but is it impacting them in terms of their branding, in terms of the words they're using? How are you helping to communicate with confidence?

Oh man, there's so much, but I'm going to start with the number one problem I think that faces not just chiropractors. I talked to other industries and they have very similar, if not same challenges. And, but that is this concept of STFU. Now, I think we can all surmise what those 4 letters stand for. It's shut the F up. And we talk too much. And I get it, Jim. Like, we are very excited about what we do. I know you're on this new venture and you're doing great, and it's very exciting to talk about it. It also makes people think that if other people are equally excited, they will buy what I have to offer. And that is so far from the truth. So, one of the things is not about what you should do. One of our biggest lessons right up front is what you should not do. So, we have an 80/20% rule on that. And for example, and very pragmatic, someone comes in, a client, a new patient, a lead, whomever, your job is to make them talk to you and answer your questions at a scale of 80% them, 20% you. If that ratio is flipped, you're already behind the 8-ball. You're not gonna get much. You're not gonna get anywhere because I'm gonna give you another analogy to bring this home. I remember back in the days when I was dating, right? And I can only have the male perspective. But if I wanted a second date, there was no way I was going to get it if I did all the talking. I mean, this is a relationship fundamental that we somehow lose when we go into business, right? I mean, if I want a second date, I'm going to ask questions that are pretty much open-ended. It's going to incite the other party, in this particular case, a woman, to tell me things and to open up and just Let it ride, right? Because the more that they can speak, the more rapport they build with you because they're sharing something, right? And so that's number one lesson. And it's not only a mentality, it's also a strategy because we have to train that because we're so on the other opposite end of the spectrum when it comes to that.

Yeah. And I guess if you're also then talking about this sort of insecurity in what you're doing, the temptation is to You're trying to sell the, the person on the whole concept of being a chiropractor as well as what you're going to do for them. So from a scaling point of view, Daniel, how does it work if you're trying to get more and more clients and you're spending more and more time listening and you're trying to scale the business? You kind of end up running out of time, don't you? How do you help the Close for Chiro clients Solve that equation?

That's a great question. And I'm gonna go against the grain on this one, cuz the typical business mentality on growing, number one, is more new business, more leads, more new patients, more customers, more clients, et cetera, et cetera. I'm gonna disagree with that. I think that the typical business out there has more than enough leads right now, unless you're first starting out. But the problem is though, if we're not onboarding each one of those clients with max value, We will always be what we call new client drunk. We know that because how many people out there go from one marketing venture to another looking for the next group of new clients to serve? And they give you a call, you have a consultation with them, and at the end of the day, less than 50% of them are saying yes to you and at your best recommendations and at your fees, which means you're working double hard. How about this? How about we take the same number of new clients Onboard 75% to 80% of them effectively so they understand what you provide, the solution to the problem, and your fees. That takes the pressure off of the marketing, doesn't it? Because I got to tell you something, Jim. We will never scale to the level that we want and we will never get noticed in what we're doing and the talents that we're providing the world if we're constantly struggling and trying to figure out where our next new lead is coming from. It's just never going to happen. Ever. It's too much stress. I don't care who you are. Okay. Especially for a solopreneur like us and a lot of the people that are listening to this podcast. So what do we do? Number one, we have to get more of them to say yes with the least amount of stress. And that's the bottom line of scalability. Now, once we get a certain volume, now we have another set of problems, right, Jim? We call them closer problems.

Okay.

I got too much volume. Now that's an easy thing to deal with because now we just have to invest more time, hands, or money to Increased capacity. That just happens naturally. But what doesn't happen naturally is getting the same number of new leads to say yes to your solution, your product, your service at the highest level possible and repeat, rinse and recycle week by week.

So are you saying that the essence of this is if you've got people to come to you and you're listening to them, they're going to be closing because they feel taken care of?

Correct. And, you know, it's a can of worms there. But yes, there's so many service providers, product providers, whomever, that blow the sale right up front because they make the major mistakes. And the thing is, Jim, we were consumers before we were salespeople, right? So we know what it feels like as a consumer. Like, I'm sure, Jim, you've been to places where something just doesn't feel right. I didn't like it in there. I mean, I can give you a car buying experience. It was like, I walked in like, There's no way I'm buying a car from this facility. There's just no way. It's the same product, but for some reason, I won't buy it here because they broke all the rules of sales. And as a consumer, we subconsciously feel that, nope, not going to happen. But from a sales perspective, we have to have that same level of sensitivity.

Daniel, just looking higher up the funnel, right? You're talking about the close. part, which is fabulous. But how are you helping your clients close for chiro, get the volume of leads? Because downstream is great if you've got that problem, but how are you helping get that funnel full? Because that's a big part of people's problem as well.

Absolutely. And I'm sure a lot of the marketing people have already tuned off to this, and I gotta tell you, if you're already hanging out to this late in the podcast, I'm gonna tell you, marketing is a subset of sales. Let me repeat that. Marketing in itself, all the rules of marketing come from the rules of sales. And that is, can you get into the perspective of the person and your audience that you're wishing to serve? Because if you don't have that mentality and you don't have those skills, what's going to happen is all your marketing— podcasts, print ads, Facebook ads, whatever— will never be in the perspective of whom you're trying to serve. So in sales, one of the cardinal rules is What do they want and how can I provide it for them? What is their problem and do I have a solution for them? Now, if we follow that rule, Jim, what it means is that any marketing that you do is going to be focused in that. For example, I'm selling light, like the light on my table. A typical person who is not trained in the art of sales will say, this is a great light. It has 45 watts. It can change temperature from 2,000 Kelvin to 6,000 Kelvin. Very technical, right? It has been inspected by X, Y, and Z. It went to Jim James's office in order for it to be stamped for approval, and now it's on sale for $49.99 US. That would be the very general non-sales way to market a product, as opposed to who would be using this particular product and how can I phrase it so that it is a solution to a very specific problem. And if we can phrase it that way, then our front-end marketing goes through the roof because you're not getting swiped by. You're becoming noticed because you're specifically talking about a problem. That is a sales lesson. That is not a marketing lesson.

It's a customer engagement. And now with sort of 360-degree touchpoints with customers, we have to be consistent across the whole customer journey, don't we, Daniel? And now you're also an entrepreneur and you've built Clothes for Cara over the last decade. So I'd love to just have you explain how you've been getting your own business noticed, because obviously you're doing that for your clients, but You've successfully done that for your own firm. So how are you doing it?

Oh, yes. So I think the biggest one is the fact that we stayed focused. It's very easy for entrepreneurs to diversify their offerings. Because on paper, it sounds right. If I have a whole list and suite of services, people can choose exactly what they want. If I do that, I'll increase the number of leads that want something that I offer. And that is actually not how it works. Staying focused on a very specific A need, want, and desire, or a problem is one of the hardest things for us to do because it's so easy to get swayed by maybe I could sell this instead of focusing on one thing. So what we focus on is how to get a chiropractor, very specific, a practicing chiropractor, very specific, more than 5 years in practice, very specific, right? Get their patients to say yes to them up to 90% of the time with their best recommendations and their fees so they can scale their practices and businesses. That is very specific. And that's what we've done for the past 12 years. From an entrepreneurial standpoint, I'm gonna say the other big challenge was the fact that I was unnoticed, right? And a lot of people on this podcast are in that same boat. And for those people out there who are feeling that way, Be patient. I mean, I walk into a trade show or a state association, I'm absolutely noticed. And the reason I'm noticed is because I'm not afraid to offend. I'm not afraid to be provocative. Even the name of our company, Close for Chiro, is very bold. It's very polarizing. We get hate mail sometimes. Doctors shouldn't sell. We get it all the time. And you have to withstand that. And one of the ways that we've withstood it is that we make it content. Nothing attracts more eyeballs than looking at a train wreck. So we know that. So we're going to leverage that and we're going to exploit it. And that's how we survive it. And a lot of the people out there are so afraid to engage the things that you think people will be offended by. They're never going to be your clients anyway. So I don't know why you're talking about them. I don't know why you're thinking about them, right? But The people who want, need, and desire your stuff, they're going to look at that and see how you handle that, right? And you say, you know what, I like the way that was handled. This other guy, this general member of the public on Facebook, total knucklehead, but I like how they handled it, you know? And so I would say those are the top 2 from an entrepreneurial standpoint that we had to figure out really quick in order for us to get noticed.

Well, and plainly you've done that globally, which is amazing. And I could see why having an opinion and point of view And if you like going against the grain in terms of saying, well, let's talk about this as a business, as opposed to a sort of maybe a shadowy kind of medical art has been both brave and forward thinking as well. If there's one piece of advice you could give people, Daniel, I know you said about taking a position, but is there one piece of advice you'd give?

I mean, there's a lot of pieces of advice, but if being put on the spot, the number one piece of advice on getting noticed is going to be for every interaction that you're having whether it be online or in person about what you do and what you can do for them, that has to be done with the utmost care. That is the fundamentals of the fundamentals. That is the grassroots of what you do. And we need a plan. So we can't wing this anymore. When you're faced with a new client or a new lead on a Zoom call or face-to-face, we can't wing it. We have to have a plan of action on how this conversation's gonna go, what the end product is going to be. And we have to go in prepared because a lot of people don't think sales is a thing. Like it's this enigmatic, it's just a nebulous thing that doesn't really have any technicalities. And that's so wrong. It is a very technical thing and we need to learn it and we need to have some type of template at least and be prepared. We would never play in a piano recital without preparing for it. Like we're going to learn the notes. We're going to Learn the bars. We're going to practice and practice because we certainly don't want to screw up on stage. It has to be treated with that much respect.

Wow. Dr. Daniel Bay joining me from Chicago, Clos for Chiro. Thank you so much for joining me today. We could have gone on for ages, but I love what you're doing because as a beneficiary of chiropractic services myself, I think more of them should be more available, more widely noticed. So thank you so much for sharing what you're doing today.

Thank you, Jim. Thanks for having me today. It was an honor and a pleasure.

It's my honor and my pleasure. And obviously I will share Dr. Daniel Bay's details on my show notes, and it's clothesforchiro.com is the website. And of course you can find Daniel on all the social media and in his Facebook group. We'll put a link to that as well. You've been listening to Dr. Daniel Bay in Chicago and me, Jim James, here in the UK. And until we meet again, just wish you to keep on communicating.

Thank you.

Now I'd just like to mention our sponsor for this show. The Unnoticed Entrepreneur podcast is sponsored by a company called Prowly. Prowly is an all-in-one software for leveraging your public relations activities. You can boost the media relations game for your business, find media contacts, send out press releases, and get more coverage while saving time and money on everyday tasks. Check it out, prowly.com.