What do to when the company and the founder grow apart.

Hello and welcome to this episode of The Unnoticed Entrepreneur. This is the show for business owners and entrepreneurs who deserve to get more recognition than they currently do. So what we're going to do is talk about real-world strategies. We're talking with entrepreneurs who are building brands and helping others to build brands. So today I'm delighted to go to Cleveland, Ohio with you, and we're going to meet Jackie Biebenroth, who is the co-founder and CEO of a company called muse Jackie Wog to the show.

Thanks for having me, Jim.

Well, it's my pleasure because we've got a lot to talk about. You are an entrepreneur. You've had your business, I think you mentioned, for over 20 years, uh, over there. And we're going to talk about some aspects, for example, of going from general to specialization, uh, when it comes to marketing, and talk about how entrepreneurs are too busy and too trapped inside the jar of their own business to read the label And that ultimately stops them getting the clients. And I'm really excited because later on we're going to talk about how you've been building your own personal brand alongside the brand of Muse. And that's something I'm particularly interested in for founders. So Jackie, tell us about you and tell us about Muse and what you do.

Certainly. So I started in advertising a little over 25 years ago, and I started as a copywriter working on messaging, sales messaging for clients. I climbed the ladder and grew through the ranks. I became a creative director and then about halfway through my career, I shifted over to strategy and I started working on brand positioning. And that's what I do currently through my company.

And through Muse, which is museheadquarters.com, by the way, and we'll put that in the show notes. You say on your website that you help brands reach their full potential with clear, confident communication. Tell us, how do you do that? Because isn't everybody communicating in a clear and confident way?

Not our clients when they first come to see us. And I'll tell you, the test for this is I'll say to a prospect, tell me about your business. And if they talk for about 20 minutes about this, that, and the other thing, I know they're an ideal candidate for our services. We help brands define their brand narrative. So that means we help them understand what they sell, how they provide value, and ultimately why they do what they do so that they can go out into the world and communicate more clearly and with confidence.

I have a question, Jackie. You know, founders start businesses as you've done. I can't believe it's over 25 years ago. That's incredible. Congratulations, by the way, keeping a business going for so long. How do entrepreneurs not know what they're selling or not know what customers are buying from them, which isn't always quite the same thing, is it?

You know, what I've found in working with entrepreneurs in particular is that one of two things. Number one, they're so passionate about the business that they believe everyone else shares their passion. And that's simply not true. You know, you have to earn someone's attention when you're talking to them. So, so a lot of times we'll help, we'll help cut through that passion with what's important in connecting with the people that they want to sell to. The other side of that coin is perhaps the entrepreneur has grown the business in an organic way over time. And they're simply not communicating at this, the stage of the life cycle that they're in. You know, when we think about— I like to compare this to personal growth. The way that I showed up in the world when I was a teenager, the way that I spoke was very different than the way that I show up now in the world as a professional and as a more mature individual, right? And I find sometimes that business owners don't make that, you natural evolution, they might want to show up in the world and garner the price points of a more mature business, but their brand is still speaking like a teenager. And they haven't really made that correlation. So we help them see that and remedy that.

I love that. And that's, I think, the best explanation I've ever heard that as the company grows, the founder doesn't necessarily mature at the same rate. Or their self-perception or even their abilities, right, to grow the brand along with the business itself. Jackie, how do you help a company or an entrepreneur then to, if you like, become in alignment between what the business is now in terms of serving and what it is perceived as by the market? How do you help with that?

Yeah, so excuse me, we have, we've positioned over 80 brands. And through that work, we've identified some common themes with our clients and as, and we've worked to systematize and bring techniques to the, to this evolution and this, this brand growth. And The main crux of the technique we call productive distancing. And so, what we found is that quite often entrepreneurs are too close to their businesses. They're in the weeds, they're doing things daily, and they are so close to it, we call it— I love this analogy, you're inside the jar and you can't read the label. So, the productive distancing techniques that we deploy really help the entrepreneur take a step back from the business, see a fresh perspective, read between the lines of the stories that they're telling themselves, and ultimately elevate into the position that allows them to achieve their full potential.

And can the founder sometimes be in danger of sort of not moving on with the brand? Are there times that you find, Jackie, that they The company outgrows the founder?

Jim, that is a great question. I have seen that before. And I think, you know, it takes a lot of courage to change. And it takes an objective perspective to help you gain the confidence that you're making the right decision. And so, half of our work, we used to call our service brand therapy because we would have those types of intimate conversations with the entrepreneur to help them understand, you know, where do you want to go as a person and how can your business align with that goal? And ultimately, if those 2 things aren't aligned, that's okay. You know, there, there's an exit strategy to be planned for, right?

Yeah, yeah, exactly, Jacqui. That's really, really interesting. And I guess there are some entrepreneurs who love to start things and then pass it on to someone else that might grow it and eventually administer it as it becomes more mature. Jacqui, you, um, are— and I apologize, you're the founder of the company. I said at the beginning co-founder, but I, I double-checked, um, and you're actually the principal. And so even more congratulations for keeping a business going for 25 years. As an entrepreneur in your own right, how have you been building the Muse brand? Because you yourself have had to mature, haven't you, over 25 years? And growing a branding business is a very competitive space, isn't it, with new generations of people coming in? So how have you managed to keep the brand relevant and continue to win clients? Yeah.

So, first of all, I mean, I've done my own fair share of personal growth. I've had multiple coaches over the years to help me sort of evolve into breaking through whatever was holding me back, typically fear, you know. But from a business strategy perspective, and we see this with our clients as well, we, as an early-stage business, for cash flow purposes, you're taking everything you can get. Somebody wants to buy pineapples, we sell pineapples. We also sell strawberries. You want this over here, right? So, there's a natural tendency to be a generalist in your space. And what we've done at Muse and what we look for and support our clients in is this concept of niching in over time. And the idea is that the more specialized you become, Whether that's a horizontal specialty, meaning that's an industry specialty, or I'm sorry, the horizontal is more of a service specialty, or a vertical specialty, which is more of an industry specialty. The idea is the more specialized you are, the higher the value perception of the business. And so, we help clients really sort of slim down their service set and understand what's important to them as they move forward. And so, for Muse, we went from being a general generalist marketing agency to being a brand strategy and content marketing agency. Those are 2 horizontal specialties. And we serve primarily the food and wellness industries. So in doing that, we're able to really present ourselves as an expert in those industries. And we've been able to build and systematize processes for the services inside our wheelhouse. And all of that has added up to We get paid more for, for that, uh, and we can command a higher price point versus what we were charging 10 years ago.

Yeah, Jackie, Jackie Biebenroth we're talking to here, who's, uh, running a company called Muse. She's mute. museheadquarters.com in Cleveland. Now, the, the challenge sometimes for entrepreneurs about going into niches is that fear, isn't it, that the niche will become a cul-de-sac? Right, that you're getting to a smaller and smaller market and you end up with a sort of a client mix of one. Or in the PR business, which I was in, you'd have a client that would only, only allow you to work with them and not another company in the same industry. Microsoft were famous for this. How do you help companies, you know, not be in a niche that's too small? for them and their appetite to grow?

Oh, Jim, I learned this firsthand. So, I actually niched in too far when I made the decision to sort of slim down the industries that we served. By the way, we market ourselves as an agency that serves food and wellness. We'll take many different clients in many different industries. We just don't market ourselves that way. So, so that kind of helps with the fear, like, oh yeah, I can accept a client. Maybe we don't put them in our portfolio, but maybe they're great for brand strategy. And so they're building in our service wheelhouse. So that's number one. But number two, if you niche in too far too fast, something that looks great on paper, an opportunity that looks great in theory, might not play out that way. And so for us, the biggest lesson we learned in following our own advice, but niching too fast, we went after the functional medicine market. And this was right after the pandemic, we were coming out of the pandemic, I had some PPP funds that I wanted to invest in our new specialization of wellness. And I thought, this is a core audience in wellness, they touch all these other services and products, like if we get in here, this is great. Beyond that, On paper, this industry is growing and growing and growing. So, there's nothing but an ocean of opportunity. So, I spent a lot of money and a whole lot of our team's time building content, paying for a proprietary report, doing PR, pitching keynote speeches, all of the things that I'm sure you tell your audiences to do when building visibility. And we got the word out there, but I'll tell you, we only got, after 18 months, 3 small clients, none of whom were profitable. And what we found in really interviewing that audience after the fact, they didn't want to buy what we had to sell. They didn't have the budget for it, and they felt like they could DIY it themselves because they're doctors and they can do it.

Oh, interesting.

So, uh, all that said, uh, I, I'm out, you know, $60,000 to $80,000. But instead of, uh, you know, carrying that through with a sunk cost bias, I decided to cut the cord. Um, we still have the report on our site. We still passively market to this audience, but we're not actively—

Very honest of you to, to share. Um, and we've all got in our archives, things that we've built or done that, that never see the light of day. So you've, you kindly shared that, that, uh, that story already for me. But you've been building Muse. But one of the things I want to talk with you about was, as an entrepreneur, you've been getting business through your own personal brand strategy. So I'd love for you to share with us how you are getting sort of a dual brand strategy going and how you're experiencing the benefits and maybe the dangers of that for us.

Sure. So within the last 12 months, I've decided to work on my own personal brand. I've never done this before. I've really— my brand is really limited to inside the 4 walls or the Zoom screen. And as a result, my methodologies and my techniques really, they have a limited reach to my client base. And I was really opposed to building a personal brand for a long time because number one, I'm not a narcissist.

Okay.

I'm kind of like, I don't want to be boastful and put myself out there. I think there's a fear associated with the feedback loop that I might it on my personal brand. But I worked with— I actually hired a positioning expert who helps high-profile people build their personal brands. So, I'm a positioning expert. I hired a positioning expert to help me read my own label. And I worked with him for 6 months. And what came out of that was this concept of productive distancing. This is what we do. It's a proprietary technique, set of techniques, and a process. And that is something that I can really stand on as a platform and help get the word out. So, first and foremost, I can help more entrepreneurs, which is my first intention always. 10 years ago, it probably would have been more ego-driven. And then, second to that is every time I stand up on stage, I get a new lead. So, there's a lot of—

Jackie, I love that and they've done a brilliant job. Wonderful, wonderful pictures. And I'm interested you think you have to be a narcissist to do personal branding because everything I'm learning. It's an essential part of being an entrepreneur is having a personal brand to support the company brand because it gives you the opportunity to experiment, doesn't it? And also, with a methodology like productive distancing, if you just keep repeating that inside your own niche, there's only so many times you can repeat that, right? But actually, you're going to be finding new clients and new niches. Just tell us, what is productive distancing? Can you share that with us or is that giving the game away? We have to hire you as a speaker to get that information.

No, not at all. And in fact, I'll be working on 2024. I'll be working on a book around it and all of the things, you know, following our own advice, content and all of that. But so, productive distancing is the art of asking the right questions to go deeper into uncovering the true value perception of the brand. And with this technique, we start inside the business. I think a lot of brand experts will tell you to look at the market, look at who you're selling to, start there. Look at your competitive set, understand how you can be different. But really, the true value of the business on an established business is Inside the organization. And so, we work with our clients to ask a series of perception-based questions of the executive set and of the employees. And once we have those answers, we evaluate the common themes and discrepancies, pull that out, and then align them with sort of customer surveys. And therein lies that overlap, that alignment between internal and external perception. That is almost always the strength and the value of the organization. And entrepreneurs don't see it if they're not asking those questions. So, productive distancing is really nothing more than a set of very strategic questions. And sometimes, we find that people don't want to really hear the answers.

Why would they not want to hear the answers, do you think?

Because the answers are often different than their own perception of the company. And that is, yeah, that is a scary thing. It's a very uncomfortable thing to shift your own mindset around.

Very, very interesting. We could definitely dive into this in more detail, but as you know, unfortunately we've only got sort of 20-odd minutes on this show, but we will be including Jackie Bibenroth's details in the show notes, of course, as always. Jackie, I do like to ask successful entrepreneurs like yourself, What does move the needle, if you like, in terms of getting noticed? What would you say over 25 years, or it sounds like you've been kind of regenerating and rejuvenating your own personal relationship with the company as well over the years. In your experience, what helps to get you noticed and my fellow entrepreneurs can take away from you some guidance?

You know, you have to stand for something. And it doesn't have to be a purpose-based cause. But when your name, whether it's your personal brand or your company brand, comes up, there's a first thing that comes to mind in someone's brain. Someone like they immediately have a feeling or a thought. And one of the questions that we ask in productive distancing is, what are the first three things? What are the first three words to come to mind? When thinking of this organization. And the ultimate goal is for those 3 words to be common across all of the audiences that you ask. And if you're doing it right, then, then that will be true. And that's what you can stand on. So whether that's a topic, an emotion, or just a set of, of things like you want to be a go-to. And that's going to help with recall when someone needs you or your product or service. Because if you're just a generalist who doesn't stand for anything, you're unforgettable.

You're forgettable.

You're forgettable.

I know. And I thought you maybe burst into some Frank Sinatra singing for us there, but I— Unforgettable.

If you stand for something, you're unforgettable. If you don't, you're forgettable. I love that.

Now, you've been memorable. I'm going to avoid getting into forgettables and unforgettables, Jacqui Biebenroth. I'm going to say you'd be memorable. So, how would people find you, Jacqui, to continue the conversation and find out more about productive distancing, for example?

Sure. So, my company website is museheadquarters.com. My personal brand website is jacquiebiebenroth.com. You can always find me on LinkedIn. Our company is on Instagram. And I do have a personal Instagram, but I'm, I'm not good at posting on it.

Well, look, I think we've got plenty there with the company and the personal site. Jackie, thank you so much for joining us. I know we could have talked for ages because branding and the things you're working on are so valuable for entrepreneurs, but I'm afraid I'm going to have to cut it short. So thank you for sharing. And you've come into the office today when everyone else is working from home, so thanks for you know, going to the office solo today for me.

Thank you, Jim.

It's been wonderful. Well, we've been with Jackie Bibenroth in Cleveland, Ohio. So I will, of course, put her details in the show notes. And if you've enjoyed this, please do leave a review on the website or in the show notes on your player and share it with a fellow unnoticed entrepreneur. And always, if you have anything that you'd like to ask any of our guests that are coming up, and we have them every Tuesday and Thursday, please just drop me a note. And you can do that at theunnoticed.cc, where we've got a place you can even leave a voice note. So once again, thank you for joining me. Jim James here. All my guests seem to be in more exotic locations than me, uh, but thanks for joining me on that tour around the world to learn about getting noticed. Be well.