Why a female entrepreneur got into men's underwear, and made it on main street.

Hello and welcome to this episode of The Unnoticed Entrepreneur. Today we've got a special guest. It's a female entrepreneur that I've personally known for quite a while because she used to be one of the doyens of PR in Asia, uh, was working in Japan and then running PR in, uh, in Asia Pacific out of Hong Kong. Teresa Zimmerman, though, is now the founder of a company called Wood Underwear, and she's going to tell us why men should wear underwear made of wood, or a little bit like wood, and how she's built a business that's now got over 500 stores and is really part of the mainstay of a men's wardrobe. Theresa, welcome to the show.

Thank you, Jim. So great to see you.

Well, it's great to see you. And, you know, we had a debate about who was chasing who, but I know it will have been me chasing you to be on the show because you're a legend.

I don't think so. I don't think so.

It will be because you're a legend because you've built Wood Underwear plus written some books as well. And I'd love for you to tell us about, you know, Wood Underwear. And we're going to talk about, you know, why men should look at their underwear drawer in a way that they haven't done since their mother packed their drawers for them. Um, but also the journey you've been on and some lessons we can learn about how to build a brand without being on Amazon. So, yes, Theresa, give us a little bit of the backstory of really why men should wear Underwear made of wood?

Well, first, first of all, let's clarify, there's no splinters. No splinters.

You can sit comfortably.

Yeah, exactly. No splinters. So, um, it's, it's actually wood viscose. So we— our fabrics are a, um, cotton blend of cotton, and, um, we use a, a Lensing-branded, um, Tencel Modal. Tencel Modal is wood viscose. So, um, it's made from beech tree cellulose, and it's, it's an amazing fiber. You can go to lensing.com. I know this is an advertisement for them, But they've got all kinds of crazy information about how sustainable it is. And it gives the fabric its technical properties. So wicking, thermo control, odor control, all of that, all of the yumminess. And then cotton gives it the performance part of it. So it's fabulous. Women have had Tencel Modal and viscose products in their wardrobes for a very, very, very long time. And certainly 11 years ago when I started Wood, There just was not a lot out there for men using these wonderful fabrics.

And I have to ask the, you know, the obvious question. How is a woman who spent her career in Asia in tech PR, you know, getting into men's underwear? And I mean that in the best possible taste, of course.

Setting me up for this one, Jim. I've been trying to get into men's underwear my whole life.

Oh, there we go. There we go. And many a man would have been chuffed at the opportunity, but Let's not go there. Let's talk about, you know, how did you get to doing this? And then we could talk about the journey of building it.

Yeah. So, um, being in consulting, as you well know, you're always working on everyone else's stuff, you know, uh, problems, solutions, brands, whatever it might be. And, um, I was, uh, just at a point in my career where I thought, I want to work on my stuff. I want to, I want to own something. And I didn't necessarily mean that, you know, literally, but, you know, turns out when you start something, you have to own it literally too. But I wanted more of a, I wanted I wanted it to be more mine and all the good, bad, and the ugly of it. And so, I started looking around out of a collaboration. Underwear was part of that. And, my husband got a prototype and spent the next 3 months telling me that I had to do it. So, naively, I'm like, well, how hard can it be to sell a few pair of underwear? So, there we go.

But you've done a brilliant job and you've expanded out of underwear across to— you've got lounge pants now and you've got t-shirts as well. But interestingly enough, you're not selling on Amazon, which, you know, would seem impossible. So how have you done that, Teresa?

Well, so I— when I started the business, I was very intentional about wanting to sell to stores. I was looking for a wholesale model. And so, given that that's where I started, I didn't even think about Amazon. And 12 years ago, you know, when this idea was being born, Amazon wasn't the powerhouse it is today, for sure. And they were really more of a consumer play. And so, once I started working with small business owners, Main Street, I'll just generically call it Main Street. I just fell in love with Main Street. I love the store owners, the buyers, the multi-generational owners of these stores. And they are so in touch with their customer. It's relationship-driven. And so, there was some depth in that that I had been looking for without even maybe knowing I was looking for it after coming from corporate. And so, I just kind of stumbled into that. And the last thing I wanted to do was to sell to corporate when I was in love with Main Street. So it was just more of a kind of trying to put my money where my mouth is deal.

But it does create a challenge because Amazon really dominates now.

It does.

From the retail and the distribution part. So tell us, how have you been building the brand for Wood? And you've got this amazing orange color and you've chosen a very um, identifiable font type as well. Um, take us through that because you— I mean, it's hard enough to start a retail brand as it is, but to choose to ignore the largest online shopping platform is, uh, stupid. Brave, I think, is brave. Let's call it brave. So how have you done it?

One store at a time, um, personal service and kind of, you know, We have not grown as fast as we probably could have. But I've tried to stay true to my intention of the reason why I started it. And then my growing love for Main Street. You know, we— the high service part of it and everything we do, we want it to be inviting. We want it to be about relationships. And so the— you mentioned the color and the brand choices and all of that. We wanted those to reflect that. Those Those things came ahead of my deciding that I loved Main Street, but it's there. It was part of what I was searching for, even if I had to articulate it with some hindsight, which us PR people are great to do, right? We can articulate anything with some hindsight, spin the story. But the name was about having some fun. It was about being a little irreverent. It was about staying on the sexy side of sex, not crossing over what that boundary is because, you know, in the world of underwear, it's a very easy thing to cross that line. It was about coming up with messaging that was a little bit provocative, but then the product had to back it up, right? So, you might say, oh, wood, how fun, you know, but then you try the product, it's the product that's going to bring you back.

Yeah.

And then our— go ahead.

No, sorry, go ahead.

I was just going to say, and then the positioning for us, which, you know, is I think a real differentiator still, even though some people are picking up on the message, which I love, is about wardrobing. It's about men understanding underwear in the same way that women always have. Women are taught from a very young age, girls, you know, growing up, you put on your underwear based on what you're going to wear, what you're going to do, all of that. Men are not. Boys are— huge generalization, not to offend anybody, but I understand it's a generalization. You open a man's underwear drawer, certainly in the United States, it's very likely they have this style, color, brand that their mother put there when they were 15 because they haven't been taught different. And so, once you start talking to men about, hey, you need to diversify your underwear drawer because you don't wear— simple, you don't wear black under white pants. You don't wear a lot of fabric or really long leg underwear when you are wearing a skinny jean or when it's 90 degrees with a heat index of 102. You know, so it's like, think about these things. Your date night underwear is not your gym underwear, or it shouldn't be, right?

Well, especially not unless it's had a wash in between. I think probably it would be the—

And that's where the fabric comes in as well, because a lot of fabrics right now that are coming out are polys. Polys are, they're oil-based. And so the sweat that comes off your skin, without getting too technical, it's oil-based. And so the The stink molecules, if I can put it bluntly like that, actually bind with fabric. So, if you ever notice, like gym underwear especially, you can launder your gym underwear very well or even your just gym running clothes or the stuff you work out in and sweat in on a regular basis. The next time it gets even a little bit moist, that smell comes out. And, it's not the smell from what you've just done, it's the smell from before because you can't wash that out. Right. So, so gym underwear is not your date night underwear.

Well, I think for all of us that are listening and probably sort of slightly embarrassedly thinking about our, our boxer shorts and, uh, what we do and don't wear, I do try and match my boxer shorts to my socks color, if that's any consolation. But, uh, that's about as sophisticated as I've become. Uh, but now I, now I'm going to be quite, uh, insecure the next time I look in my drawer.

Well, but that— so that, that also is a reason why you should think about your underwear from a wardrobing standpoint. The confidence it gives you to know you're wearing the right thing under whatever you're putting on over it or whatever you're doing, trans— it, it transmits. You, you, uh, you, you share it in your confidence and posture.

Of course, most of us are keeping our trousers on, uh, when we're going out, but there we go. I suppose at the end of the evening or Or in the gym, you might have a moment when you're showing what you're wearing underneath. But what about this idea then that you've raised, which is actually wearing underwear and what you buy? Most of us discreetly buy a packet in the shop without talking to anyone about it.

Yeah.

How do you deal with getting the customer message that you're talking about into Main Street? Because if you're You know, you're going through the media. We've shown and seen that you've got good media relations coverage, which is great. How are you getting people in store to know the difference? Because what you've just explained to me about the fabric, I, I had no idea, for example. So how are you helping people in store to understand the difference?

Yeah, so, so the, the one thing about, um, younger generations, um, is they are— they do care about, you know, a lot of the fabric and the sustainability part of it. I don't know that they're necessarily buying on it, but they do care about knowing about it. So, I think they're educating themselves a little bit, maybe more than we would have at their age. But we do this one day at a time, one store at a time. And, you know, we are at trade shows with stores. We are in-store with our store owners and buyers. We produce educational materials for them to talk about wardrobing and what The proper underwear does. So an extreme example, in the case of a woman, a woman can pack clothes for a week in a suitcase and go off on a trip. And if she didn't bring the right bra, the right panties, whatever to wear with those clothes, she has nothing to wear. You can't wear it, right? So that's maybe an extreme case. But if you are wearing something and you don't have the right bra, you're going to fidget all night long. You're not going to be comfortable. And it's going to show through on confidence. And it is true that with men as well, maybe not to the same extent because, you know, you're maybe not as conscious of it. But talking to the clothiers who are setting you up with your suits, your shirts, your, you know, sports coats, whatever, your pants, and measuring you. And it's like, let's get the right fit, the right style for what we're putting you in. And we do that one store at a time. You know, the scalability of it's a little hard, but it's also part of our focus.

Well, it's really interesting because you're absolutely right, because if I go shopping, I buy a pure Egyptian cotton t-shirt because it just feels nicer. But there isn't anyone in store helping me with those decisions or, or, um, any of that. In fact, you feel too embarrassed to ask, right?

Right. Yeah.

So, Teresa, you know, as founder of Wood Underwear, um, what have you been doing in terms of your relationships with getting wholesalers, because wholesale business is often just sort of margin, isn't it, and availability as well. And they don't want to have empty supply chains. How have you been communicating that? Because as a new brand, although now 11 years in, you're obviously established, but how did you get those first wholesalers to take you on? Because for them as well, there's a risk, isn't there, with a new brand not selling through.

There is, there is. And even, even as small as we are still, you know, there are some supply chain issues. And certainly over the last couple of years, supply chains have been tested. But, you know, again, when, when you've got the relationships, when it's a relationship-based business and they know you're a small business too, there's a little— they give you a little bit more leeway too. And it's about communication, being, you know, being honest about where you are, what stage you're in. Owning that stage and not making excuses or not trying to cover it, it affects a lot. So, the first stockists I had, I think I mentioned to you before when we were chatting, I walked in after I got my first shipment landed in the United States. I packed my car with a couple hundred pieces of just whatever I had. I had one style in 4 colors and 4 sizes. And I drove around Los Angeles and I walked into stores and asked the buyers if they wanted to see my underwear. And that's, that's how I, that's how I started. And I walked into this store in Los Angeles, Third Street, never been in there before. And even at that point, you couldn't just Google men's stores. I mean, I was using online sources. I was using the, the, an online version of the Yellow Pages, basically the phone book. to find these stores. And Douglas Fir, I walked into. They're on 3rd Street between the Beverly Center and the Grove. Fabulous men's store. And Douglas fir is a type of tree. So that was kind of fun. And then John Noble is the owner of the store. Noble fir is another type of tree. I sat down with John. He's a Brit transplant to LA, and he was so kind and he wrote an order on the spot after I— he was my last stop of a very long, very sad day, very frustrating day. And he, he wrote an order on the spot, and I filled it out of my car. And he just took what I had in my car. So it was, that was, you know, the first thing. Otherwise, we go to trade shows. I went to a lot of trade shows I had no business at, spent too much money at, had no, had nothing to do with relationship-based business. They treated us like numbers. And I've decided since not to do those. But there's a lot of really amazing trade shows out there that are you know, they, they treat you like a person. They're relationship-driven. The, the organizers know your name, know who you are, and help you out. So it's—

Yeah, so really a lot of that. You, you wanted to build relationships, and you've plainly been doing that, Teresa. So what about, um, this question that I always like to ask, which is, you know, one thing that maybe you don't advise fellow unnoticed entrepreneurs to try? Is there, is there something that you've done? I mean, you're a marketing guru. You've worked for Big companies doing PR campaigns, so you're an expert in that. Anything that you did that you thought, I wouldn't have done that again?

Yeah, there's a long list, but early on, at a time when I had no money, I tried to outsource my sales and it was a very expensive mistake. And a very expensive mistake when you're just starting out can be fatal. And so I hired agencies. I thought, okay, well, they do this for other brands. They should know how to do this. And either it just didn't work for me or I wasn't ready for it. I actually tried it twice because I'm a slow learner and it didn't work either time. But you just can't outsource your sales. You can absolutely get support and have people engaged in your sales. That's not a question, but you can't give it away. And that was hard.

Why is that? What fails?

They're not invested. So, if you think about salespeople, whether you're an agency or a person, you're going to sell what's bringing money into your pocket. And so, you've got this new brand, you're walking in and nobody's heard of this new brand. Underwear is a whole other barrier because underwear is just an upsell for most stores. It's not a key point. You might take it out of your bag when you go into a store, you might not, because you're making your money somewhere else. So it's just harder. So they're not invested. And you, as your business, you have to be the one to make sure that your product gets taken out of the bag and shown and sold, at least an attempt to be sold to the prospective buyer.

Yeah, that's really interesting, isn't it, that your passion, you know, got your first client, right? And that, and that started you on the journey to the 500 or so clients that you've got now. And you're expanding internationally, Teresa, as well with Wood Underwear. You've got distribution in Japan. Um, how are you going overseas with the brand?

So, um, the, the Japan connection, um, is, uh, she was out of LA. Um, there's a, there's a big Japanese community in LA, big, uh, You know, transfer of population there. And they approached me at a trade show. And so they handle it through, you know, with their distributor. So that's— otherwise it would be very scary. I think setting up in other countries with the rules, regulations, specifically the Japanese market, you have to have every single product, every single fabric tested. You've got to have all the specs. The way pricing is settled is completely different than here. Um, so it's, you know, going in with local knowledge has been the only way I could do it.

Yeah, great way to distribute. And one of the final questions is you are also on your website talking about, um, giving 1% of sales and getting into supporting, of all surprises, trees. Um, do you want to just tell us the role that the, if like, the giving back has got within the business as well?

Yeah. So, we have, from day one, we've done giveback programs, but we never actually led with it. I think I was too aware of the whole greenwashing. And, you know, there's a whole bunch of stuff out there where people say that they're doing stuff for good to try to say they're better than they are. And so, we never led with it. But, in the last couple years, we have been publicizing that we're doing it, most specifically in a partnership with One Tree Planted. So, every order off our website, woodunderwear.com, We plant a tree with our wholesale orders. 1% of every wholesale order goes to planting trees. So, if you're buying from a store, our product, it also plants trees. And then, the 1% pledge is— it started out as a corporate pledge. A lot of people have jumped on board with it. It's fabulous because it's not just about giving back money, but it's giving back time. So, 1% of your time as an employee Um, you give back to, at, you know, some kind of service.

Yeah, there's really—

so we think it's important. It's important.

Yeah. And you've given over 5— you built— you built— grown over 5,000 trees or planted over 5,000 trees. So it's just—

we probably need to update that number. But yeah, I mean, I'm very proud of 5,000 trees.

That, that's, uh, it's a great way to give back. And of course, it's also true in the way that you would do everything's around trees and wood. And so you kept it all within the brand as well. Theresa, if there's one piece of advice that you can give people in your role of building the Wood Underwear brand in terms of getting noticed, what would you say that is?

Gosh, in terms of getting noticed. Well, in terms of— that's a hard one. So, I think you have to find ways to do things that you can afford that maybe are a little bit different. And I know you're a believer in this because you've started a bunch of things that way. But so, when I launched Wood in 2012, I couldn't afford advertising and I was at the beach. So, I did have a connection into beach sports. And so, we started sponsoring beach sports up and down the coast of Southern California. We were selling underwear under tents at the beach, which is crazy because I guess it's our 2 men in a garage story. We're in a tent on the beach selling underwear to people who are not wearing underwear and the furthest thing from their mind is wearing underwear. But, it is a blast. The athletes are amazing there. And, we have a team that we sponsor that plays volleyball, Team Wood. They'll be back out there in Manhattan Beach in a couple of weeks at the end of July wearing their Wood underwear. Gosh, we've sponsored, I don't know, 7 or 8 teams. So almost since we've been in, you know, launched, we've sponsored Team Wood.

Yeah, look, that's a fantastic way to also get hot bods on the beach, uh, as, as we can see, and get the product out. And, uh, and it's Instagrammable and it's photographable and everyone's sharing on re— uh, on their own retweets and so on. Teresa, thank you so much for joining and sharing your story of Wood Underwear. And I'm not sure whether you called me a cheapskate by saying I've started things for not much money or not.

Is that it?

Oh no. She's called me a cheapskate on the air. She made it sound nice, but what she was saying was, I'm a cheapskate. Teresa can say that to me. That's okay.

Oh my God. I don't know if you started it cheap. I did. But you certainly did something different and unexpected. It might have cost you a lot. I don't know.

But no, no, no, I've, I've, I've, I've been following your lead all the way along. If you want to follow your lead, uh, and get in touch with you, Teresa, where can they do that?

So woodunderwear.com is probably the easiest thing to remember. woodunderwear.com. And otherwise, Teresa Zimmerman on LinkedIn. Um, happy to, happy to take a connection.

Teresa, thank you for being connected with me and talking to me about parts of my wardrobe I'd never explored before. Thank you so much.

You're gonna go check your underwear drawer now.

I am. I'm going to go check just after finishing the recording. Well, and you can too, if you've been listening to this and found it interesting. Yeah, A, check your wardrobe first and then share the episode with your fellow entrepreneurs and ask them to check their wardrobes as well. And then also give us a review on your player. That would be very helpful. And until we meet again, I just encourage you to keep on communicating and say thank you for listening to this episode of The Unnoticed Entrepreneur.