Why measurement is good Carma for your sales funnel.

Hello and welcome to this episode of The Unnotis Show. Today I'm delighted to have Jack Richards, who's joining me from South London. And Jack, welcome to The Unnotis Show.

Thank you very much for having me. Very excited.

Now, Jack, you are the global marketing manager for a company called Karma, which is a media relations and monitoring service, been in business since 1984, right?

Correct. Yes. So I've been around since 1984. We were chatting just before this, weren't we? And I was explaining how our marketing function Didn't really exist until a few years ago, so I'm sure we'll have plenty to chat about.

Yeah, and I wanted to have you on the show because I've known Karma since 1996 in Singapore when a chap called Jim McNamara came and shared with me about measurement. And what I wanted to do was to really ask you how Karma and measurement can help the business owner to to get noticed and understand how they're getting noticed. So do you want to just tell us? How does Karma work and how does it work for entrepreneurs?

Karma, the way we operate is we are client-first, we are expert-led, and we are data-driven. And I think particularly for a lot of the listeners today, those will be really important factors. What's that mean in relation to what? It's about media monitoring, measurement, and evaluation. And we want to help our clients, we want to help PR agencies, these marketers, communicators, Demonstrate the value of PR, demonstrate the work that they're doing.

That's great for the agencies to justify themselves, but what about for the business owner? Why should they care, Jack? Because often, you know, it's— they've put out some information into the marketplace and they carry on. How can you help them to, for example, understand what their audiences are really thinking? Because as a company grows, the owner of the business will find it harder and harder to know what people are thinking about their business in the market. So how do you help with that?

Yeah, I think you've hit the nail on the head there with that sort of factor. I believe that there are lots and lots of marketing, comms, PR teams that as they grow, they sort of don't make that transition necessarily from tactical execution to strategic thinking. And the problem with that is that their measurement is all tied in with that. And any marketer or communicator will measure stuff in some form. But at the start of that sort of measurement journey, that measurement maturity, if you like, people will be counting stuff. And the problem with counting stuff is you just do stuff. And you end up in this sort of perpetual cycle of not really achieving your business objectives, not thinking about how you can drive your business forward. But with proper analysis, You can understand your audience because as a business grows, you know, you might have known your audience when you first started when there were 3 or 4 of you in an office and 5 or 6 customers. It's very easy. But as your business grows and your audience changes, touchpoints you have with your audience changes, you need to be in touch with that. You want to understand your competitors better and that competitor landscape changing. And there are so many different touchpoints that can't necessarily be done in the ways that you've been doing it as a small agile business. And if you want your business to grow, you need to think more strategically than just counting or doing stuff.

Now, Jack, let's just think about what we measure. Because in the old days, when I met Jim McNamara, there were really only the print publications, and we outsourced measurement really to save us hiring people. Just tell us how the landscape has changed, because now it's social, and it's owned channels, and it's out of control. But it's also 24/7, isn't it? How does karma help people to understand what's going on around them?

Yeah, it's interesting you say that, isn't it? Nobody gets into PR to do measurement. People get into PR to do the fun stuff, right? But as you say, monitoring measurement has changed. Once upon a time, and I'm very pleased to say I'm too young to remember this time, but once upon a time, you would have had stacks of clippings essentially from newspapers and magazines and on your desk, and you can Hello, Mr., Mrs. Client, this is what we've achieved for you this month. And you would have column inches and that would demonstrate the value of your work. But does it demonstrate the value of your work? Is counting stuff demonstrating anything if it's the wrong audience or if the messages are wrong or if the messages aren't resonating or if the coverage you're generating is actually in terms of sentiment very negative? So we've moved on in terms of how we measure things and the metrics we look at. But also, as you said, We've moved on in terms of the channels. You know, there's media. We then had new media, which has now become the social media. We've got our paid channels, our earned channels, our owned channels. So it's about moving beyond just measuring the stuff that gets printed in newspapers, because as we know, that's actually not— although it's still the majority of media is still traditional media, there's lots more going on. And we also need to think about how media, how PR and comms links in with the rest of our communications strategy and those other types So, Jack, can you give us an example of how media monitoring across all those different platforms can help a business owner to make better decisions?

Because ultimately, people pay money to get noticed, or they do it themselves. How does monitoring what the market is saying about what that content is help them to make future decisions?

Sure. So, you know, as I've been saying, once upon a time monitoring was about counting stuff and that was great. But now we're at a point where we can really dig in with proper analysis, with expert analysis from real people, not just automation that's talking about likes and subscribers and shares and whatever else. We can dig into different metrics and what those metrics do is allow you to understand how your content is performing, right? So it's not just about how much we're doing, but the value of what we're doing. And I think particularly for a lot of the people that will be listening today, you don't have the time to be doing the stuff that doesn't matter. You know, you don't have the money to be doing the stuff that doesn't generate results. So it's through integrating measurement at the start of the process in the planning process that you can think about the success of your campaigns, you can reevaluate your campaigns, and you can do the stuff that matters. Okay, I'm putting out this content. Is it getting to the right people? Are the messages landing? How are we comparing against other organizations? How are our spokespeople performing? Which spokespeople do we need to be using more and less? And I think digging into that saves the business a lot of effort and helps them deliver what matters. And I think that's really important.

So when you talk about the analysis, let's just look at that because a lot of platforms now really are all digital and especially AI-powered ones, and you feel a little bit out of control. With Karma, Jack, just tell us the people side, the analysis that you're doing. What kind of analysis are you giving to clients?

Sure. I mean, you know, increasingly we are sort of seeing these tech stacks, and I think that's great. But what we believe at Karma is that tech is that sort of foundational building block. And that really, if you want to be doing analysis of your content, of your campaigns, you need sociopolitical understanding, you need cultural understanding, you need context, you need empathy, you need all of those things. And that's why we've got analysts on the ground, and our analysts will derive insights from those metrics. So the metrics tell you so much, the measurements, but actually what we want to go from is the outputs, the content you're putting out, to the outtakes, what do people then think or feel as a result of that, which are those metrics, to the outcomes, thinking in a more integrated way about what people now do because of the activity that you as a comms, PR, or marketing person has done. So our experts around the world, all of our ADs, have got at least 10 years experience because It's about not being a salesperson, it's about being a consultant, and we try and understand that broader environment and apply those insights to the broader business to help you make organizational decisions, I guess.

Okay, so you've got real people making real research, and presumably, are they making then recommendations, Jack, in terms of— are we talking about engagement levels, for example, or where content that's out there has led to people Either going to the website and entering the top of the funnel, for example, or even turning away from the company if they are not, you know, happy with what they've read.

Sure. Well, many of our staff have worked in PR roles before getting into the wonderful world of media intelligence. We are not PR people, and we're not there to tell you how to do your job. Like I was saying before, people get into PR to do PR, not to do measurement. But what we try to do is provide you with the insights to make better decisions. So we can show you how your campaigns, if you're thinking integrated, as you said, are sort of top of the funnel. Okay, how is our recent PR campaign influencing website traffic? And once they get to the website, where are they going from there? And, you know, once upon a time, as I was saying, we'd be talking about content going out into the world and it's done. If we think about the entire end-to-end process from putting a piece of content out to how that affects share price. We're looking across the whole spectrum and producing reports for our clients across, you know, governments, automotive brands, and banks that will help them make those decisions, but having that micro focus at every single point along the process.

Yeah, you've raised a really good point, which is the impact of PR on sort of sales leads and web traffic. And for me, one of the beauties of digital is that now we can see where the traffic has come from. you know, 15, 20 years ago, you'd have an article, and you may see an uplift if someone read about the company and then went online and searched for the company because the URL wouldn't be in the article. But now someone might read an article, it might be on Outbrain, for example, syndicated long-form content, and they can go direct to the client's website. Can you give us any insights into what's working In your view, in terms of content that's directly leading to engagement and to traffic to sites?

Yeah. I mean, an area that's of interest to me more broadly, even outside of karma, is this concept of digital PR. And there's a broader argument of isn't all PR digital PR now? But we know that as an absolutely sort of benefit, that sort of digital linking has a huge impact on SEO, for instance, an increase in search rankings. I think in terms of the content, it's always going to depend on your organization, isn't it? But we know that particularly when you're getting to that middle of the funnel stuff, you know, the prospects are aware of you, they've seen your blog, they've seen your social media updates, they've seen your infographics, all that sort of stuff. The content that really moves them down to the bottom of the funnel are those educational resources, those things that help them understand and add value more broadly. And that's certainly something that I've seen in the industry.

That's very interesting because one of the comments actually in the book that I've just written is about how people want to be educated now, not sold to. A guy called Brian Clark who wrote Copyblogger, really changing the nature of what we produce as PR people to be less promotional and more informative. So Jack, how do you then help the clients to take what they're doing and start to, if you like, instruct their team to make content that is gonna be more impactful?

Well, I think this is where it's important to think about measurement in the planning process and incorporating a measurement framework. AMEC, the Association for the Measurement and Evaluation of Communications, have got some great resources on that. But by integrating measurement at the start of the process, you've got your objectives in mind. And I think tying back what you're doing at every step back to your objectives really keeps you on track and actually ties in— again, it comes back to doing what matters. If you're a 1-man band, a 5-man band, a 10-man band, you need to be doing what matters. So through deriving insights that demonstrate the value or the lack of value in what you're doing, through having an integrated framework that looks at your activity at every step of the process, from tactics through to objectives and everything else in between, you can keep tying it back and keep thinking about what you need to do better, what's working and what's not.

And, Jett, one thing we did talk about was the sort of post-COVID audience and how in, in our research, you know, healthcare and, you know, protection of well-being has now supplanted almost every other sort of aspect, key message for clients. Any observations about, if you like, the new audience trends that you're seeing at Karma?

Yeah, well, I think it's fair to say that there aren't any. Everything's changed. We're in this weird post-COVID world where everything you thought you knew about your audience in June or even February 2020 has changed. Where they consume their media has changed. The days they go to work has changed. Their objectives have changed. The way their business operates has changed. And that's why I think it's actually really important to keep up to date with your research, be it market research, focus groups, be it doing proper evaluation of your campaigns. Because I just don't think there are, you know, there is any particular trend. I think everything has changed. And I think that is the point I would take from any of this conversation today is whatever you do, if you're not doing any measurement, if measurement is running through your veins, make sure that you know your audience by touching base with them And making sure you're properly researching them.

So otherwise you're flying blind really, aren't you, as a business owner, if you're creating content without a plan to measure the performance of that content, then you could well be wasting a fair amount of time and money.

Yeah. Well, you will speak to people. I speak to people all the time where I'll say, you know, you've got to know your audience. And they'll say, well, I know my audience because my audience is, you know, Dave, who I've been working with for the last 20 years, or, you know, the CEO of the office opposite. I think everything has changed. And like you say, you're flying absolutely blind. And it can not only be a waste of time and money, but it can actually do a disservice. It can be detrimental to your business if you're putting out the wrong messages and in the wrong places.

Jack, let's just talk about money, you know, if we can. Research media monitoring outside the budget parameters of your average SME? Because historically, people thought that was really the preserve of the MNC with the big corporate department, which is a shame because actually small companies need It doesn't need to be.

And actually, funny you should say that. In the last few weeks, Karma has launched a service for SMEs because more and more we're seeing automation, and automation is fantastic, but what that misses is that client service, that consultancy that you need to set up a measurement framework. I also think it's costly not to do measurements. I think that's another way of looking at things. If we keep talking about, you know, the detriment of not knowing your audience, if you're a PR agency and you're missing clips and you're not able to prove your value, all of those sorts of things, or if you're running something and trying to bore the ocean, trying to monitor everything, you're not able to cut through the noise. So there are 2 angles there. It's expensive not to do monitoring and not to do it properly, but it also doesn't need to be expensive if you can find the right partner to work with you and create a service that's not just out of the box, but that matches what you're trying to achieve for yourself in-house, or if you're an agency, for your clients.

So, Jack, in reality, what does that mean? Are we talking hundreds or thousands of pounds a month? Can you just give some clarity to people on this show? I like to give the listeners, you know, a tool, but also a budget, because otherwise, there is no point in even talking about these things.

Sure. I think depending on your measurement maturity, measurement can go from a few hundred dollars a month to, you know, tens of thousands of dollars a month. And I think what the perception is, it's all tens of thousands of dollars.

Yes, exactly.

And it doesn't need to be that way. So I, you know, I think it's very fair to say that you can, if you can be affording to spend a few hundred dollars on Facebook ads every month, you can afford to be monitoring them as well.

That is great. And Jack Richards of Karma, if you want to find out more about Karma and in a way to become calmer about their activities, how can they find you?

Very good. I might take that one away with me. You can reach out in all of the usual places. We're at karma.com, C-A-R-M-A.com. Same again on Twitter @Karma, on LinkedIn. My name is Jack Richards. I'm @JR_Marketeer on Twitter. I'd be very happy to help you.

Jack Richards sharing with us an area of kind of marketing that most business owners, I think, kind of put off. A bit like, a bit like my accounts, I tend to do them, you know, reluctantly because it's not the glamorous and the fun part of creating something. But of course, it's ultimately the acid test of how well we've done. So Jack, thanks so much for sharing with us today about the need for monitoring and that it's accessible. I think is really a great message to bring home for everybody.

Absolutely. That's it. I think wherever you are on your journey to communications, to PR, to measurement and monitoring's got to be involved at some point along the way.

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of The Unnoticed Show. You've heard from Jack Richards here today and me, Jim James. Thank you very much for listening.