Jim's Book series - chapters 3 & 4 with Jim's Group CEO, Jim Penman and Joel Kleber

Hi everyone, my name is Joel Cleave from Jim's Group hq. And we're into chapter three and four of the Jim's Book discussion. So we go through these chapters and they are called Jim's Calling, which is chapter three. And the other one was Little Short Term Mowing Business, which is chapter four. There's a lot to unpack in this. It's quite going back over it again last night. It's quite a lot of the decisions that happened in this were quite pivotal into where you got now. So be quite interesting to discuss and probe that. So let's start with Jim's Calling, which was at the start of, I think, age 25. And around this time you wanted to get married. You want to get married at 25, which is how it starts in the chapter.

No, I didn't want to get married.

The chapter's wrong. The start of the chapter says you want to get married. So maybe you'll talk about that.

Well, I mean, eventually, yes, of course, that was the idea. I got into the state of mind where I was. Yeah, I would have. I would have been happy to settle down and get married. I was emotionally in that state, which I hadn't been a few years earlier and. But the trouble is I couldn't find any girls I liked. So I thought having a car might help me with the dating scene, so.

To speak, which is quite a common thinker to most young men, to get a nice car to get the girl. So what car did you get?

Well, not a nice car in this case. It was a Kingswood. So it was a pretty ordinary secondhand car, white at least when I bought it. It got to be very discoloured with time and banged up and so forth. But yeah, that was the basic idea. I went to the bank, got a loan to buy the car, which I think is about fifteen hundred dollars, something like that. And then. Yeah, and to pay for it I thought I'd better make a bit more money out of my gardening business. So that's when I started off mowing lawns.

And how did the car go of the success with women?

Absolutely nothing didn't help me at all.

Which is the general sentiment for most blokes. We'll keep going on there.

So we haven't got the personal charm then the carbine hilt.

That's very true.

Unless maybe it's a Maserati, I don't know, but very true. Mine certainly wasn't.

Keep going on here. So one of the other stories which is quite famous, which you talk about in Jim's ethos, which follows up after in the early of the chapters, was about the Tom and the mower shop. And you're quite fascinated by a new bit of kit you saw there.

Yeah, because it used to really bug me, the fact that I couldn't do my edges perfectly. I had a wheel, you know, like spoke wheel, which I used to run along the concrete edges of the mower strips. So I could do them pretty well and then I could clean the grass up very nicely from that, but I couldn't do the other edges around the trees and the clotheslines and so forth. And it used to bug me, really used to bother me and I used to think, what on earth could I do about this? You just can't get with a pair of shears. It was just too slow. You have to charge an extra double your price. So nobody ever complained. Not one customer ever said to me, I don't like this, but it used to annoy me. And then one time I was in the mower shop and I saw this weird looking gear in the corner, this long pole handle in the middle, engine on one end and the other thing was this plastic contraption with a bit of white cord sticking out. And I said to Tom, what's that? He said, it's a brush cutter. I said, what? It's a brush cutter. New idea, straight out from, just out from Japan, the only company, only one company makes them, Shigetani in those days. So I said, what does it do? So he said, he showed me, he just picked it up. He said, you hold it there, you pull this thing in, that little white cord, it's nylon, spins around and cuts the. It cuts the grass with that ring back in the trees and answer to my, to my prayers. I had to have it. I bought it on the spot. I just had to have that machinery because I just wanted to make the job perfect. Nobody asked me, I just wanted to make it better.

Did customers notice when you started using it?

Yeah, well, whether they actually said anything, I don't know. But I just found that my customers really loved the job I did. I could just do a really superb job. Not just the edges with the brush cutter, but also the grasp and the cracks and things like that. I could do a job that people couldn't do for themselves because people used to get these things after a time, mostly the curved ones called weed eaters. But if you're not professional, you can't use them properly. They'd make a terrible job. Whereas I made a really, really clean, neat job because I was experienced at it, so it was a really big advance.

Yeah. It's quite a famous story because you say it in your ethos. So for anyone who's watching, who's thinking about coming to the training, it's one of the stories you do tell in the ethos as well. Yeah. Just to sort of reiterate that point about customer service, what you just had to have it because you knew it would make those jobs, which was bugging for ages, a lot better.

And even though there was no complaints, that's the thing that's important too. I was always looking to make a better standard even than the customers asked me to. I wanted to do something. It's just what we talk about is the wow. It's not just meeting expectations, it's trying to go beyond them, get the customers amazed. I don't think I thought about it in financial terms. I just. I just really, really want to do the best job possible. And I was just a fanatic. I would see a little bit of ball of grass that big on the other end of the side of the front lawn when I was leaving, I just go and pick it up and chuck it away. Job had to be perfect. Not that the customer minded or anything. I just had to have a perfect job.

Now. Tragic tactics. Straight after mentioning that you're still doing your research during this time. It was quite. It's quite similar to your research was when you had a. You started studying a bit of zoology and you're looking at cycles with. Was it muskrats and lemmings during this time as well? Which is quite pivotal to what you do with your research and your theories and stuff like that. So how did that come about? How did you find that pattern? How did you make the.

Well, what used to happen was I would be studying history and I wanted to study all kinds of history. That was one of the problems I had with the history. They want you to specialize in one area. I wanted to find out what was common to all civilizations. So I was very interested in ancient East Asian, pre Columbian, American, the widest possible range. And I started to see this pattern, these generally about 300 to 400 year cycles. And I just wondered what they were, but they seemed to be so consistent. And again, because I was looking at what I would notice that it was in. You could see them in Chinese history. And it's a particular cycle where you get a slow decline into a period of chaos and then a rapid line to rise to a new, usually a new dynasty. So it's that very slow, slow decline. Now I knew that happened in East Asia, in China in particular. You could see the same pattern in Japan, you could see it in India, even in ancient Sumeria. I mean, it's a very widespread pattern. But I could also see it in Europe. And one of the interesting things about Europe was that it was. We had a lot of demographic information which you don't for other civilizations to some extent. And what I found was that that pattern fitted very well with the demographic pattern, that the periods of unity and national growth tended to be in the middle of a period of population growth. But it wasn't like it was the trough was when there was the disorder. The disorder came towards the end when the population growth was starting to build up and you saw a change in both birth rate and death rate. So the birth rate rises and the death rate drops in these periods of growth and then the birth rate drops and the death rate rises in these periods between them. And the interesting thing about that, it had no relation to the economy because in fact, in the trough period, like 15th century, people were actually better off. Wages were higher in the growth periods, they were lower. So it wasn't so much that the, the economy was driving the demographic, actually the demographics was driving the economy. So I could see this pattern and you could see as far as you could tell from East Asia, it was the same like in early qing China, in 18th century, massive population growth. So you could, as far as you could see, it was totally consistent. So I was aware of this pattern which I called at that stage a domestic cycle. And then later on what would happen is that I'd be reading and reading history and I get bored with history. So I think I just have to have a bit of a break. So I'll read up on some Zoltan. So I started reading books on zoology and I found these patterns in animals like lemmings and muskrats and varying hairs, which are the same kind of pattern. You had this growth pattern and this decline and the growth was the same thing. It had higher birth rate, lower death rate. That was fascinating to me. Now they're a lot quicker. Lemmings, it's every three to four years. Humans, it's every three to 400 years. But when you, when you allow for the generation, like lemmings can breed multiple times in a single year. Muskrats usually about once a year. Humans, more like 25, 30 years as a generational length. So when I saw that pattern, I realized it was the same thing. That really what we would see in human populations is the same cycle as happens with muskrats. And that explains a vast array of different things in human history. You know, why did the social wars take place? Why when in Rome about 100 B.C. why'd you get that period of chaos then? Why did the Roman Empire nearly collapse in the third century and then recover? You know, why do. Why did Henry Tudor come out of the wars of the Roses and found this incredibly strong dynasty when at the time he looked like some other fairly feeble pretender? So you could understand masses and masses of things to do with history, even things like attitudes towards innovation in the period up to the peak of population growth, you tend to get that societies that are more innovative after that, more conservative. So Reformation, Counter Reformation, Renaissance is often a pew that's applied to those areas where people are very open in their thinking. So you could see a whole stack of different patterns associated with this historical cycle. And it seemed to be so similar to what happened in animals. Yeah.

How important was that finding then for you? Was there something that just confirms what you. What you were thinking more? Was it something. How important was that finding off that? It's a pretty. I don't know if it's a random coincidence, but it's a pretty, pretty powerful thing that. To find that in animals as well, something you're theorizing with humans?

Well, it was very important, but I always had a sense in back of my mind that somehow humans. This has something to do with biology. Right. It was. It was only one of the things that I came across, but that was one of the. The crucial thing. I mean, lemming cycle theory is really nice because it's so statistical. You can even look at even that there's variations in the length of the cycles. They actually vary quite consistently in times of civilization advance. They tend to be shorter when there's slights in breakdown, they extend. But they also, in a very precise way, which is very consistent.

Do you think your theory would have been as.

Well.

It would have been as strong if you never stumbled across that with the animals?

Well, I couldn't have worked it out. I wouldn't know what they meant or what they were. I'd still be looking at it because it's a biological pattern that it's. It's obviously there. But the point about these things really is it's not so much that in a sense, to me, it's a blindingly obvious pattern. I mean, I really can't comprehend how anybody could not see this. But one of the reasons for that is because people tend to be very specialized and zoologists don't study Chinese history and they don't study English demography. Even people who understand English history or European don't know much about East Asian history. So they don't see the similarities between all these different things. Because I had this kind of mind that was too restless to stay in one area, which is what an academic should do, that I noticed all these connections.

You're sort of told that, aren't you just sort of specialized and just know one thing rather than have a bit of an oversight over everything and see how things work together.

It's very much against the academic mainstream, which of course is why I would never get a job in academia, because I don't do things the way you're supposed to do them.

Well, I want to move on now to something next which was quite important to you, who you are now. It was in 1979. It says in there, you became a Christian and you had a transformational experience which made you one. Do you remember what that transformational experience was at all?

I suppose leading up to it, there's a sense of spiritual emptiness. I was not a believer. I didn't think there was a God, but I felt somehow emotionally drawn to it. And then I just simply got to know some young Christians at university. It was just a random event walking through the Christian Union one day in the union, in the Orientation week, I just got chatting to them. You just randomly start talking to people and it went from there. And then I went on this retreat and as far as I, you know, God spoke to me. I mean, that's all I could say. And I kind of switched sides.

You switched the bad hands and not, we'll get you back one day. But you were involved in the union, weren't you? So you were involved in the. Was it the Christian Union or something?

Yeah, I joined the committee and I was organizing things and so forth pretty quickly. And I went on a. I went up to Belgrave Heights and was. We did a show for the Children of the Evangelical Conference, which was a sort of a teaching show, but it was a lot of fun. And then also went on an evangelistic coffee shop where you go up to the beach and you actually try and talk to people who just come in off the street.

How'd that go?

Well, it was. I'm not particularly good at it. I'm not much of an evangelist, actually. But it was an incredible experience. You have this, you know, you're with people that are very spiritual and very alive. And you'd be praying and prayer would lead them to a song, and before you knew it, you were dancing. It was just incredibly joyous experience. It's kind of like I was only single after I became a Christian for about, you know, less than two years. But in that period was this amazing. It was amazing time. It was just. It was just so exciting and wonderful and all these conferences and just these great people and really nice girls. Just.

I just got a very social time for you, wasn't it, with that.

Yeah, very spiritually high. It was just finding people that I really connected with and I really liked, and it was just amazing. It's something that you have to. If people. If you're not a Christian or you've only been one, in sort of a. Like a pew warmer, but you haven't had the personal experience. It's very difficult to describe how amazing that experience is. To me, it's very joyful. You know, when I'm in church, it's very. It's incredibly emotional. It's like you're just full of joy. And how can you describe or explain that? It's a very, very happy, joyful thing.

It's a very subjective experience, I guess, isn't it?

Well, all experience is subjective. Happiness is subjective. You can look at two people with the same lifestyle on the surface, and one of them is incredibly happy and one of them is incredibly miserable and depressed. Happiness is exactly. That is exactly subjective.

So let's keep moving on. So at 29, your career in academia, as it says in here, was sort of. Was sort of over. However, it was an important time because you realized that to do the experiments you wanted to do, you came to the conclusion you'd have to generate a lot of money or you have to be rich, was what they said in the book. So that's quite an important thing because then you go, I need to pursue this. I have to generate some money.

Well, bear in mind I was very idealistic about everything. I lived right through my student days, living a very, very meager existence. I really don't spend much. Even now, I'm not much of a spender. But even those days I was really tight with money. I just had this vision, this research, this project I wanted. And so becoming rich was just. I couldn't care less. I just didn't care. I didn't want money for anything. I don't like to live well even now. But then I had this situation and actually I asked about what I could do and people just said, this is hopeless. What you want to do because you want to do all this. What I came out of a history degree with was a theory that had to be tested in the laboratory through physiology, through animals, through hormones, through these kind of things. And they said to me, you can't do this. You haven't got a degree in science. These are expensive reagents. There's no possible way you can do this. So I said, okay, I'll have to become rich. So that's what I. That became my aim. Insanely unlikely as that must have seemed at the time to anybody because during.

This time you, you. So you started mowing lawns full time. It was always a part time thing before, but during this time you then decided to turn to lawns full time. And then during this time you brought on subcontractors and you wanted to run your business from home during the time.

Well, I had to run it from home. I didn't have an office.

Yeah, but I meant that you weren't. Were you out in the field then or were you managing purely subcontractors?

I've mowed lawns for about 15 years, which is more than most people in gyms have done. Gyms mowing have done part time and then. And then full time.

So how'd you go with the subcontractors back in the day, managing him?

Well, I was terrible at it. The service was awful. But I wasn't so much in the business of. I did have an idea of having subbies on to so I could make an income from them, but that didn't work out very well. But I quickly discovered the key was in building up and selling lawn mowing rounds too. So that became my aim because.

Yeah, because as you said during this time around the same time you actually you did start, you were selling rounds and at one stage you employed someone to even sell around for you. And that was not a good experience. The first time you employed that you tried to employ that person to do that for you.

Well, he was, he was. I actually tried that in the past. This was how I got into debt actually. I built up some assets. I had a house when I was a student. So I got.

Which is quite impressive, which is impressive.

You know, mostly for my lawnmowing business and a couple of sales of rounds and stuff. And then I small inheritance, but most of it was my lawn mowing. But then I got very lazy at the time I was engaged and just really focused on my girlfriend and just bone idle and lazy. So I just let anybody else do everything. And this particular guy who Seemed to have a lot of ability to sell. I let him sell my business for me and he just took the money and disappeared.

So you had no recourse to get it back of him.

Couldn't find him.

Wow.

And had no money to chase him anyway.

Yeah.

What am I going to get a PI? And even if I can, you know, what's the hope of that? I just. I just. I just lost it all. I blew it and. Because I've been. And what I've done is been borrowing money to stay afloat. So I kind of flew my parents. So I went from a very positive, big positive to a very big negative all within the space of about a year. Just lost focus. I got very lazy. I just used to sit around in my beanbag and read science fiction and pine for my fiance and you know, I just. I just completely lost it.

Something that motivated you around that time was getting married because you got married at the age of 30 and here you say that was quite, you know, quite impactful in your life. That changed a lot of things about you and you sort of got moved to be that way.

Well, that was the difference. I was married. I just had to support a wife because she was a student so she wasn't able to work or anything. So I didn't have any choice. But it's strange, you know, when I had plenty of money and everything was going great and everything was before me, I went into this terrible despond and just not despond. I wasn't depressed or anything. Collapsed. And then when I had absolutely nothing and I had a wife to support, I did well. And it's just the psychology. The psychology is behind every success. It's the attitude you have. It's not your external circumstances, it's what you make of them and how you see them.

And during this time as well, you had quite a good story in there about a hundred dollar bill which I know is something you've recalled before. There's a hundred dollar bill story when you got. When you had no money and you got under charge you 100.

This was. Yeah, this was because this was only a few weeks after I started and I was really desperately behind the pump. I not had. So I thought I had to pay to support my wife. I had to pay the rent of where we lived and I had to repay the loans which were all guaranteed by parents. So I had this huge amount of money I had to find at the end of every month from a business that had only just started up full time. So I wasn't in a good situation. Then a few weeks after I started, which is just after Christmas 82, my mower and brush cutter packed it in. So I had no equipment, I just had the trailer. So I went to a shop, which was the only one vacant, which was selling these things between Christmas and New Year. And I went in and they were really busy. And I got the mower and the brush cutter. The guy gave me the price to add them up and I paid the money. And as I walked out, I was working out in my head and I realized that he'd only charged me by $100, which is a lot of money in those days, you know, equivalent of, I don't know, three or four hundred dollars. Now this is back in 82 and I walk out of the store and I realized this happened, but I thought, I need this money. Too bad, this is such a huge amount of money. At that present time, it's hundred dollars. So I actually drove to my first job, which was a fair way away. And I got the mower out, actually put it on the nature strip to start doing the first job. And I thought, God doesn't want me to do this. He doesn't want me to do it. I can't comprehend how I can even pay the money that I haven't really got, but I have to give it back. So I bloated my stuff back and I drove back and I walked in and I gave this guy the money. The manager who was there, he was very appreciative. He said, look, thanks, that would come out of my salary. He just added up the figures wrong. And I thought, well, my goodness, all right, I don't know how, but somehow if I do the right thing, God, he'll look after me. I couldn't imagine how. I really couldn't because I was working flat out. And that same afternoon I was talking to a guy who was in the business of had something to do with office machines and so forth. Now, I did not tell him about the financial situation. I did not ask him for help. I don't even know why he did this. But what he said is, I'll do some leaflet for you. Not only he offered to do it, but he actually told me how much he would do, how many he would do. And the value of that offer was exactly $100. And I know it sounds odd, but I didn't actually take him up on it. I never actually did it. But it was the most mind blowing thing I'd ever seen because I trusted God. Somehow I knew he'd do the right thing. For me to get this miracle happening just a few hours later was extraordinary. It wasn't so much the money in that case, it was just a sign that somehow, if I do what's right, you'll look after me.

That's quite a good coincidence because that's sort of in your head that establishes you moving forward with all your practices, what you do for franchisees in business. Right. You always try and do the right thing because you know that you hopefully will be.

If you ask yourself the question, what's right? It makes it a very simple answer. See, if you try and balance that kind of thing up, just say, do I give it back? You know, I'll lose my reputation, whatever, but if you know what's right, what's wrong, it's simple. You give it back. And that's happened many times since then. Many times since then. And it's really odd. I mean, I remember one time I was actually, I was selling lawn mowing rounds and this particular guy, I had a offer to replace the clients that dropped out. And there's this particular guy I sold the business to, and some of the clients dropped out, but then some of the replacement clients dropped out. And he said to me, that's not very fair. And I said, but that's the agreement we made. It's to replace the clients that drop out from the initial, but not to replace the replacement clients. So nothing he could do about it. He felt bad about it, but he couldn't. And I just thought about it and I thought, well, okay, legally speaking, I'm correct, but it's not right. So I actually rang him up and said, look, okay, here's some clients to replace those that dropped out. Again, it was a decision that looked foolish at the time, but what I used to do then was to. I put that into my guarantee. I said, I'm going to have to do it anyway. I might as well actually say I'm going to do it. And I had this policy that. Of making sure that every single thing that I did for those people who bought lawn mowing grounds off me was absolutely what they wanted. And as a result of that, I became incredibly good at selling lawn mowing rounds. Well, that was one of the things that worked. So. And that was the basis for the franchise, too. I used to. I used to have a little, little bit of card, white card with the black text, a name and a phone number. And every time a person bought a lawnmower, I'd put it on there and then I would. And then I would. If anybody's interested in a lawnmower, I'd say ring one of those guys. And they'd usually bring somebody with a local number because people had no mobiles in those days. It was an incredible breakthrough, but the origin of it was doing something out of a sense of right and wrong.

And how did you go? So every month, you obviously would have been on a lot of stress at that time, because you obviously started with you had all these loans, you had no. Like, did you just make the payments every month that you needed to make or how was it?

Certainly my rent would be a few days late, but I always somehow managed to get, you know, I'd be just in the last day and I'd be desperate and, you know, job would come in or something like that. It was tight. What made it worse, just about a few weeks after I started, we had the worst drought in Melbourne history, and every lawn in Melbourne died. And that actually knocked out a lot of people from the industry because they couldn't survive. But I just did everything. I cleared blackberries, dug gardens, took rubbish away. I just did everything. I could even organize the watering service.

I just want to make harp on that point, Ian, because your story's not just you got lucky or anything, really. It's about a lot of struggle. Right. And people who are watching this right now, going through the time, what we're going through as well, they could probably relate. If they've just started a business just before the crisis, I can imagine how they would be going right now. So it's sort of what encouragement would you give to anyone in regards to that? Are you thankful that you had that struggle at that time? Do you think you would have been successful as you are if you didn't have that struggle in place during those years?

No, I don't think the struggle was necessary. It was just there. Right. But the point of it is that it doesn't really matter what's going on outside you. What matters is what's going on inside you. It's not the environment that determines your. Your success, it's what you do with the environment. And like I said, prior to that, everything was right. I had money, I had resources. I wasn't married, I was living at home without any costs. The economy was good, the lawns were growing, and I went bust and went into debt. Now you opposite situation. I was married, supporting a wife, paying her rent. All the lawns have died, and suddenly I'm flying. It's just the contrast is the world went down But I went up. And that's what it is about. People succeed because they've got it in them to succeed. They have the drive, they have the passion, they have the discipline, they have the hard work to succeed. It's not because of what goes on around them, what goes around but helps in one way or another. I wouldn't say if it hadn't been that drought, I wouldn't have been better off. I probably would have been. I wouldn't have. Would have done even better, would have been easier for me. But I still succeeded. I still did fine. And the other thing is, you know, it's just that thing I always hack on to everybody. Just do what's right. Look after your customers, look after people you deal with. If you keep on doing that, even though you can't see the point of it at the time, then in the end it'll pay off. Don't even do it for that reason. Do it because it's the right thing to do. And if you commit to that, it's like wanting to make a lawn absolutely perfect beyond what the client asks for. It's like going to somebody and saying, here's those extra clients. It's like giving the money back to somebody when you don't have to. It's just doing the right thing all the time. I'm not saying I'm a perfect person. I'm not by any means. I always got many flaws, including bad temper and so forth and many things. But if you consciously. If you consciously make the right decision, work out what's right and what's wrong. Stephen Covey's good on that, actually, if you've read Seven Principles.

No, I haven't yet. But it's this concept of giving value, right? That's what a lot of people.

He talks about principles. Working your life on principles, having basic core principles that you govern yourself by, which are firm and basing on that. But going for the money first is a very bad idea. Go for the principles first.

That's something you've just recently established. Well, you've already done it almost, haven't you? Have you just. Is this something that you just newly sort of solidified within yourself? Have you written these sort of values down? Or is there something that you internalize, you think a bit more?

No, no, it's been. It's been something that I've been. I lived for decades or try to live for decades.

Right.

The. What actually happened was my. One of my daughters actually said to me, dad, you've got to read this stuff. This Is exactly what you keep on saying. I heard of Kogi, I'd never read him, but then I read it, I recognized the principles. I mean, he puts them in a much better way than I could. He's a great writer and he's got some great examples. I'd recognize that to anybody. I always thought it was a sort of self help book, but it's really more of a principled life book and showing how principled kind of life can lead to much better results.

So why don't go to this time now? So at the time you're running around with the name Baldwin Gardening, which was your first business name.

Because at the time I thought I just have a really local business. I lived in Baldwin, so I thought Baldwin Gardening. And the idea was to have masses and masses of jobs in the same street, which was. Yeah, because I used to get a lot of work from leaflet dropping. So that was a practical way of doing it. Because the idea with lawn mowing, if you can mow five lawns together in the same street without moving, it's a lot more lucrative. I thought if I did that I could put workers on and so forth and have a big business, but very, very localised.

So then after that though, you decided to change it to Jim's Mound. Was it to broaden the areas you could get work from or what's the point?

Yeah, because what I found was the local papers were far more effective than leaflets in a leafs per dollar cent. So it was more that. So I started to expand and obviously ball and dug. Too parochial.

Yeah. And during that time you obviously were able to sell a lot more mowing rounds because you get more clients from other areas. And you were able to support yourself during that time whilst you're working on your thesis. Was that the plan at the time?

Well, no, what actually happened was that I failed my thesis back in 1982. I got knocked back basically and I so started this mowing business. And my supervisor, Caesar's supervisor contacted me and said, look, if you rewrite the methodology section to explain what you're doing, then we should be able to get it through. And I thought, well, there's no practical reason for doing this, honestly, because I was making a living as a lawnmower contractor, but I might as well. So I, yeah, I might as well finish it. I spent, you know, 10 years getting this thing with all my degrees and stuff. Even though it seemed completely irrelevant and unnecessary. What I realized I had to do was to stop working for a while and have some money to get this. So what I did was I put my lawn mowing customers on the market. I advertised them for sale as a business. So I put them in the Age newspaper in the business for sale section. The idea being that I would sell the business and that would actually keep me off the tools and give me enough money, give me enough money to be able to live for the next few months while I completed the thesis. That was the basic idea. But while I was doing this, it took a while to actually find a buyer for my business. And while I was doing this, I kept on getting more customers. I just kept on coming in all the time. By the time I had that particular round solar, I was still flat out. So I did the same thing. I put another round in, took a while and by the time I'd sold that, I was still flat out. So I had to actually do that three times in a row to sell three different lawn mowing grounds in a row. And then I actually got out from under and I completed my thesis and I actually got it. I actually am PhD. Not that it doesn't have any practical meaning for me, but I am a doctor.

Have you put doctor over or anything? Just as I know some people like to get the title of doctor just so they can go and say their doctor.

The only time I ever do it is if it's a. Academic terms. Yeah, if I'm talking to somebody in academic terms, I'll talk about the PhD. Anybody else? I'll talk myself a Mr. You know.

One of those who corrects people when they call you Mr. And say I'm actually Dr. Or anything like that.

No, my father doing that actually. But I would never do it. I would think it's a bit. It's putting on ears. If you're talking in a scientific professional in that environment it's normal because people have doctorates in that area. But do anybody else know? Most people wouldn't have a clue. But the interesting thing about that really was not so much that I got my PhD though I did. I went up on stage with this, with this incredible garb, bright red, with this big hat and like a medieval baron. It was quite extraordinary. In fact, we got so inspired by it that we decided to name our oldest son Richard Baron Penman. That's where it came from.

Really. That's an interesting story. So because of the. Was it because of the color? Because of what you look like? You just.

I looked like a medieval baron, Right. Really scarlet red. It was quite extraordinary.

That's a fascinating story. Do you have a Picture of it.

Probably not.

Okay.

Anyway, so. But. But the thing about it was that what made a difference to my business was the fact that I'd realized I was making so much more money selling lawn mowing rounds.

But I want to touch on this now because whilst you're doing this whole stuff, you weren't convinced you would ever make enough money to do what you want to do with your research from mowing. However, that time you started seeing maybe hang on, there's the potential to drink the money I need still.

Or. I never thought it was something that would make my fortune. I had no idea about that. But I did think it was something that would move me further ahead at the time. So. Natural fact. There was one particular. I think about February 1984 that I had one amazing month. Three things. First of all, I got my PhD. Second thing, even more important, battalion actually pay off my debts. And third thing, which is the best thing of all, I learned I was going to be a father for the first time.

And what age was that? Sorry? You were around 30.

I would have been about 32 at that age.

32. Right. My age.

Well, you're a lot better off than I was at that age. Financially speaking. You'd have to be. I was, I was just. But I mean when I say I was out of debt, I was just means I was zero. Yeah. I didn't own a house or anything extravagant like that. I just got to the stage where I was. I didn't. My debts were paid off which mean my parents were off the hook. Not that I would have let them down or anything. I. It was a moral obligation. So I actually. I actually borrowed money through their day. If you've been guaranteed, so to speak. Right. That's how I could get it. So.

So during that time as well, I thought something which was quite interesting, which I didn't know or I should have I forgot was you opened a computer shop at the time in Surry Hills.

Yes.

Which is quite forward thinking, I think you wanted to run. Teach people how to do.

Yeah. We called it computer school. C O M P U T A school. But the point was though I never saw my mowing business as going anywhere. I thought it was a temporary thing just to. Just to do something with. Until my real possibility to come along. I've been involved in all kinds of things. I had to go at Amway at one stage too and I was terrible.

Amway, really?

Amway?

Yeah.

I got no people skills. So why this guy? Mission going to Amway. But I thought it Was a road ahead. I had the computer shop. I tried running a mower shop.

Yeah, you did too. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I never really thought about. I never really saw the potential. I just couldn't see it.

How long did the computer school go for?

Oh, I don't know. A couple of years. Year or two.

Yeah. How was the business? Like itself, not very good.

Never made any money. Right.

I just.

I just. I saw these things as the wave of the future. I mean, computers were starting to be big.

This is the. Yeah, yeah.

This is in the 1980s and they were just starting to come across. And we used to sell Apple clones and all kinds of things like that. It was just that kind of business. But I was never. It was stupid thing to go into, like most of the things I go into. It's just. I didn't know much about it and I just thought, this is the way ahead.

What was Ford thinking back in the day? My dad had a. When he immigrated from overseas. He actually had a computer shop in Fitzroy at the time. I still wish he had. The building would have been worth a fortune now in Fitzroy called Exatron. And this was in 1986. They were importing Internet terminals from France.

He probably did a lot better than I did.

Long story.

I tend to jump into things I didn't know much about. I always have done that. But I mean, it was the same thing too. Like later on, I. This was. This was at the time I bought. The time I started. I was trying to start a holiday resort up at Mary's.

Yeah, yeah, I remember reading that. Yeah.

And. And once again, it was just something I didn't know anything about. I just had this dream. I always liked the idea of being a place in the country and I just wanted to do it and I just didn't have the money or the foresight or anything, which is a dumb thing to do. And it just basically, it wiped me out again, actually, financially. Not in terms of the. I'd let the business going, but in terms of property.

But the point was you kept looking to these other ventures, but whilst you had this thing sitting in front of you the whole time, you kept looking elsewhere to try and do for you.

I didn't see the potential of it. I just didn't see how you could make a big business out of it. Long time. Even after I started the franchise, I mean, even years into the franchise, you know, I almost sold the business to somebody because I just didn't see it as being something that could really amount to very much.

Yeah, you Nearly sold the national rights, didn't you? I remember reading that part.

That was later. I nearly told the national rights to my franchisors in the beginning. But even though I used to just sold the rights to. Looked at selling the rights to the whole thing to somebody just only a couple of years into the franchise, I just.

Well, good decision. You didn't.

Yeah, well, actually, interestingly enough, the thing that stopped me more than anything else was that the franchisees objected. They said, we're not happy with this, we want you to keep it on. And that kind of touched me. And I also felt a sense of responsibility to them that more than anything else, I think.

What were the comments they said to you? Because it was just. They were scared they wouldn't get the same level of support or was it.

Yeah, I was very devoted to them. I mean, it was very.

I was reading the early days, like, even with, like I was. Got other stuff in the other page about it, but even stuff with the contracts, you know, when you, when you did the contracts and you asked for their opinion on the contract and you inputted a lot of things they came back with. And that's still something to this day. You still, you still put in practice?

Yes. Yeah, well, it was because it's this customer focused thing. I just wanted the system that I want to join that I would think is fair for the other side of the table, which is not the way the lawyers think. They kept on trying to get me to write a contract that gave me all the power. I just said, but I wouldn't want to buy such a business. I wanted something that I could honestly recommend to somebody. And how could I recommend it if I didn't think it was a good deal?

It took you nine months or something. Because she kept going back and forth with this solicitor at the time and.

Two lots of solicitors to get what I wanted. And even arguing with him, like Fury. It was a tough time. But the point of it is too though, that I didn't really comprehend what I was doing in those days at all. One of the things I never could understand is people often think you're mowing your lawn, suddenly you're franchise. And that was just a brainwave. And then it all works. But in actual fact, the idea of franchising was in my mind for a long time. You could not think about it. This was the time McDonald's was coming and all the rest of it. Franchising was big. But what I couldn't figure out was why a franchisee would want to Stay with me in a franchise.

After they'd got their clients, clients I.

Thought, I can understand. I could set them up, like selling lawnmey. Why would they want us to keep on paying fees? And it was really, the great hero was Bill Viss, who came in with this thing called VIP Lawnmowering, and that was based in Adelaide. And I'd heard about him and it seemed very intimidating, but I thought, well, never come here. It's my own business. And then they came to Melbourne and that really freaked me out. I just thought they'd crush me because there were 250 franchisees, you understand. I had a business with about six subbies, and that was six dozen subbies, maybe very. No uniforms, no signs, nothing very, very low key. Building up and selling, lawmakers doing all right, you know, enough I could buy a house and stuff like that and live okay. And then I saw this system and I thought, well, you know, I can sort of see there's some benefits to this, like the fact that you could look after each other if somebody broke their leg or got sick. That seemed to me one of the major advantages. And there were things of that nature. But I thought, I reckon I could do it better than him.

Yeah, because you say it. Because it says in here. So when they were moving into Victoria, you sort of got a bit scared and you sort of, as a defense tactic, you said, I've got to franchise this.

Right. I tried to sort of combine with them, in a sense. I said, I'll just work to build up VIP and hand you all my clients on a very good basis. It's only when they said no to that.

Who said no to that?

David Mitchell.

So not Bill?

No, no. Bill didn't know. I just asked David Mitchell, the state manager. I mean. I mean, they really didn't probably need me anyway. The problem is always in franchising, was finding franchisees. Not that I knew that at the time, but he said no. And then, as the story goes, I went to the Expo and went to the stands and did a bit of espionage and that was fun.

How long did you last there? Was it an hour or a couple hours?

15 minutes?

15 minutes, it was enough.

And he gave me this brochure and stuff. Yeah, I just.

I remember you took the brochure and when you copied their brochure and waited in, you just altered a few things with the logo and stuff like that.

I didn't copy it so much. I just got an idea of what they did, right, because it was different, but even think they had A heat seal binding. I had no idea what a heat seal binding was. That's the thing. Little bit of wax in the bottom and you just put it in the machine and it heaps it and it. I didn't know what that was. That's just an example. But looked at how they set it up and what they said about it. Mine was completely different because it was a different system, but it was, it was. They taught me a lot. And, you know, I never really thought I was going to beat vip. I just thought I was going to try and survive vip. That was my goal. And as I said in more than one case, you know, when somebody asked me when I first launched how many franchisees could have and I said if it works really well, maybe 100, because that was my, my goal to survive against VIP Juggernaut who had everything. I didn't have. Uniforms and signs and nice office in South Melbourne, all this stuff. They were terrifying. Really.

Well, David Mitchell, thank you very much for knocking. Knocking Jim back. I see where we are now. So during this time as well, you came up with the concept of selling by not selling, which I think is quite. Which is quite pivotal because you had a book which was selling. The title was for Selling by Not Selling. Now it's every customer a fan, which is basically all based on transparency and honesty. And that's what you decided was going to be your approach to selling. As you admit you're not a good salesman, but you started when people call you.

But that comes. That comes much earlier than this. This is well before the franchise. This is when I was selling lawn mowing rounds.

Yeah.

And finding it very difficult to sell because I'm not a natural salesperson. I've actually tried selling. Knocking on doors, selling type of pities. I was terrible at it. I really. I don't have very good people skills. I'm very introverted. So it was extremely difficult and painful for me to sell and I was very bad at it. And I used to employed somebody to sell my businesses for me like I had in the old days when I lost all my money. That was the same thing that happened then. But then I was asking everybody, how do you learn how to sell? How do you sell? What's the principle? Nobody could really tell me what to do, except you have to do it yourself. You can't get somebody else to do it for you. I just couldn't get any answers to that. And then I went to see this guy in my church who was an advertiser in the advertising business. He was A partner in the advertising firm. Because I thought I might need an advertising agent to help me find more work efficiently. And he just sat me down in his office and for half an hour he talked to me about the advertising business, what the media to use, how to phrase it, everything about it that he knew from. He was very successful. This guy was almost certainly millionaire, multimillionaire. He was very successful and I was nothing. I was this shabby, down the hill gardening contractor. But he took the time and then he said to me, you don't really need an advertising agent at this stage. You need to do that. Now this is what I always regard as the absolute seminal day of my entire career. And this is years before the franchise. I went walking back to the car and I recognized we just parked a fair way away. And as I was walking, I recognized that if I ever wanted an advertising agent, I would go straight back to him, to this guy Peter. And I knew I would do it. It was true, actually, I did. Years later, when I wanted to go on TV after the franchise started, I did go straight back to him. But then I was thinking about, and I thought, well, what's happened? Why am I so convinced I would go back to him? Because he actually hadn't told me anything about his business. That was the really weird thing. He hadn't said anything about his business. I didn't know what he charged, I didn't know what clients he had. I knew nothing about his business, but I knew I'd use him. And as I was walking back to the car thinking about this, I was thinking, why? Why has he done this? What's happened? It's like the brush cutter problem, you know, when I had all the long grass. You're thinking about it and you see something and you think and you connect the two. So in my mind there was this problem. How do you sell? And then I realized as I was walking back to the car that the only concern he had was my welfare and the welfare of my business. Because of that, he completely sold me on his business. So I just remember reaching the car, which was unlocked, and it was a filthy old car. Nobody, you might drag it away, but nobody ever steal it. And I thought, I wonder if this can work for selling lawn mowing grounds. So the next time somebody rang me about a lawn mowing business, instead of telling about my business, I asked them a question. I remember that first question they asked, tell me, do you know what the cut of a lawn mowing round means? Now I knew a cut is each job done once if you've got 50 clients worth $60 each, that's a $3,000 cut and from that you can figure out the income and so forth extras. It's a standard formula that you use to price lawn mowing rounds. We still do it actually. But I knew that most people inquiring about a business didn't know what it meant. So I asked him if he knew and then I explained it to him and then I started talking about the business, not my business, the business. When he came to see me I did the same thing. I just described to him what you could do to be successful and including how you find clients. Nothing wasn't to do with what was good for me, just what was good for him and the end of it. I said I've got some customers in your area. This is a, that's all my total sales pitch which was about 10 seconds. This is some customers that I've got. A little while later somebody came back to me. He banged me back and he said Jim, I want your advice. He said can you tell me which is the. I've been offered a business in my area, which one is better, that one or yours? And I thought, well you know, if I'm going to do this, it has to be real, it just can't be fake. So I thought I'll give him the best advice. So I asked him the obvious questions that anybody would know to ask. I said how many customers? What's the cut? How far apart are they? How long has he had it for? What's he going to do? Why is he getting out? Just obvious questions like that. And I used that to value the business knowing for example that I would replace clients and he wouldn't and so forth, those kinds of things. But then I said to him, look, that's a better business, buy that one. And I got asked the same question three times in a row. And three times I said to go to the other business. In the third case I actually said it, look, it's a better business but he's charging a thousand dollars too much, offer him that. So I gave away three sales, every single one of them bought from me. And from that time onwards I started doing that. I never had any trouble selling Luang Mung rounds ever. So suddenly lousy, terrible salesman turned into a super gym. And that's when I started using this thing with the cards and so forth and I just did everything I possible I could to make these people raving fans but for you as well would.

Have been a lot more comfortable doing that. You're coming from a place of value or you like, almost like they're asking you advice, you're just giving advice for free, no expectation of anything back.

It is comfortable, actually. It is comfortable. It's actually a lot easier to do than being a salesman because you're actually genuinely looking for the person there is. You're the person there is.

This is the Gary Vee type of stuff. So Gary Vee, obviously is all about giving value.

My three sales, every single one of them bought from me. And from that time onwards, I started doing that. I never had any trouble selling lawnmower rounds ever. So suddenly, lousy, terrible salesman turned into a super gym. And that's when I started using this thing with the cards and so forth. And I just did everything I possibly.

Value, value, value. And then at the end, you don't have to have a sales pitch, but you might. If you like what I do, you know, you can use my services and. And that's it. But it's all about giving as much value online as possible. And then if you do want to use one of his businesses or whatever, you know where to go.

Well, we do it all the time in gyms too. It's a common practice now. Like, for example, if you can, you can look on our website, you'll see all this useful stuff. I mean, all these secrets are there. All these books will tell you all about how I did it. Exactly. The principles that I used, everything, all the videos.

Yeah, we do it every weekly. Ask Jim. Ask Jim. You can ask him anything you want, which we have.

And I ask you everything. There's nothing to make these people raving.

Fans, but for you as well, would have been a lot more comfortable doing that.

Everything gets hidden. I give the full, complete advice and you give genuine value. But actually it works incredibly well because it's by giving good value to people that they want to do with you.

Coming from a place of value or you like, almost like they're asking you advice, you're just giving advice for free, no expectation of anything back.

It is comfortable, actually. It is comfortable. It's actually a lot easier to do than being a salesman because you're actually genuinely looking for the person. There is maybe that 99 people actually go out and do it and one person actually says, well, hang on, I'd like to be part of it.

I think you're ahead of the curve because that concept now is quite common. Obviously they say always that now, but before there was never been slack formalized in a way. Now, but probably back Then let's say the late 80s, you know, that something was quite, was quite ahead of the curve.

Yes. New Year's.

This is the Gary Vee type of stuff. So Gary Vee obviously is all about giving value.

Yeah, but it was based on. It was based on a couple of things. It was based on the fact that.

I'm value, value, value. And then at the end you don't have to have a sales pitch, but you might. If you like what I do, you know, you can use my services and that's it. But it's all about giving as much value online as possible. And then if you do want to use one of his businesses or whatever, you know where to go.

Very poor salesman. So I wasn't able to do the normal sales pitch type of thing. And it's also to do with. Well, we do it all the time in gyms too. It's a common practice now, like for my sense of ethics. I mean, I really am capable of lying, mostly because I'm so socially awkward that lying requires social skills I don't have. So I had to tell the truth. So in a way I used my handicaps to adopt a way of doing things that tend to be quite good.

And as you said, it was probably the most single most significant.

It's far more significant than the decision to franchise, which was almost obvious in the sense at the time. The decision to actually look to the interest of the person I was dealing with was, was the core of the idea behind gyms. In other words, I wasn't going to sell something I didn't believe in. I had to make it a great system.

Well, there you go. That's a great bit of business advice there. Freelance. We're going to clip that up as well. So 1989 is when you officially launched. Was based on the day here as well.

For example, if you can, you can look on our website, you'll see all this useful stuff. I mean all these secrets are there, all these books will tell you all about how I did it. Exactly the principles that I used, everything, all the videos.

Yeah, we do it every week now, weekly. Ask Jim, Ask Jim. You can ask him anything you want.

Which we have, and I answer everything. There's nothing that's hidden. I give the full, complete advice and you give genuine value.

But actually time you're coming up with a logo and you put a few around the office and which one. How did that whole logo come about? Because obviously you probably didn't know at the time. But it's one of the most Recognized icons. It's definitely a cultural icon in Australia, especially for younger people now as well. But did you have any idea at the time how.

No, no, I had no comprehension about this thing. Actually, the way it rose is when I used to put leaflets out, I put my photo on the leaflet because I just found it got a better response. It works incredibly well because it's by giving good value to people that they want to do with you. It may be that 99 people actually go out and do it and one person actually says, well, hang on, I'd like to be part of this.

I think you're ahead of the curve because that concept now is quite common. Obviously they say always that now, but before there was never been like formalized in a way now, but probably back.

Then, let's say when you find a franchise, you've got to have a logo. Well, you can't. You can't put a photo on uniform. If I could have, I probably would have. But you can't. So I just got something to draw it up. It's not this version here. It's the.

Yeah, I know, I know the version you're talking about. There's another version. I know the one you're talking about. Yeah, yeah, it looks a bit different. Yeah, the light at the late 80s, you know, that's something was quite. Was quite ahead of the curve.

Yeah.

Another one you're talking. We've got on Instagram, I think.

So the older version, I just had it. It was just a photograph that was taken at the time and I wanted. And I had to put some lettering behind it and it was kind of like. So I picked a few versions of lettering that I thought were okay and just stuck them around the office to my staff who were answering phones and just said, which one do you prefer? Yeah, but it was based on. It was based on a couple of things. It was based on the fact that I'm introverted, very poor salesman, so I wasn't able to do the normal sales pitch type of thing. And it's also to do with. The reason for this one. The one that we use here is because it's. It's very, very easy to read. That's why it's upper and lowercase. People read lowercase faster. Very big lettering, very bold. So that was all there was to it. I mean, it was kind of like the amount of thought that went into it, probably like an hour or two, honestly.

How much did it cost to get it done up? Graphic person?

Oh, a few bucks.

It's not A bad investment. For what it would be worth now.

Yes, actually, my sense of ethics, I mean, I really am capable of lying. Mostly because I'm so. A few years later, a couple of my staff said, you look a bit grim in that one.

It's a bit more happy this one, isn't it? Be more cheerful.

So they took another photo and did another logo. I had almost nothing to do with it.

You're quite amazed by how much the logo is sort of, you know, it's.

Sort of socially awkward. Lying requires social skills I don't have. So I had to tell the truth. So in a way I used my handicaps to adopt a way of doing things that tend to be quite good.

And as you said, it was probably the most single, most significant. When we, when we've run competitions before, we say describe this logo in six words or three words. And it's always hard working. Australian, iconic. You know, young people love it. Are you surprised about how much it's sort of taken a life of itself?

One thing, when I started this thing, I had no comprehension about becoming a byword. I just didn't, didn't occur to me. I remember after a few months when we. It's far more significant than the decision to franchise, which was almost obvious in a sense at the time. The decision to actually look to the interest of the person I was dealing with was the core of the idea behind gyms. In other words, I wasn't going to sell something. Starting to build and it grew a lot faster than I thought. I mean, I had seen by the end of the first year, which was astonishing. I just couldn't believe how successful it was. But people started recognizing me, recognizing the logo and stuff. It's like it was a byword. This is just in Melbourne at this stage. I just. This is weird. I didn't believe in. I had to make it a great system.

Well, there you go. That's a great bit of business advice.

I had no idea, I had no, no, no idea that this would work out that way or it could be recognizable or known. I just didn't know I had the principles. I had the idea of the principles behind it, but I had no concept of how successful it would be.

You're quite proud of that now, looking back on things, how well known it is and what it's known for. It's generally associated with like, you know, six or five words. Whenever we've done surveys there, Franklin, so we're going to clip that up as well. So 1989 is when you officially launched was based on the day here as well. And at the time you were coming up with a logo and you put a few around the office and which one. How did that whole logo come about? Because obviously it's. You probably didn't know at the time but it's one of the most recognized icons. It's definitely a cultural stuff which is always hard working. Iconic.

If there's one thing I'm proud of is that my franchisors in general share my values, which is the value of service. And most of my franchisees do care.

About their clock in Australia, especially for younger people now as well. But did you have any idea at the time customers?

I think that's what I take pride in. I've never. The numbers itself is neither here nor there. It's not. I don't know. I mean, I often can't comprehend. I've done so well. I really. I mean when I look at all my stupid decisions I've made, really. I mean I just look at it and the dumb decision after dumb decision after. I had no comprehension of how. No, no, I had no comprehension about this thing. Actually the way it rose is what I have. It was just sort of stumbled into it. This is a. Because I failed academic. I mean, goodness, when I used to put leaflets out, I put my photo on the leaflet because I just found it got a better response. When you want a franchise, you've got to have a logo. Well, you can't gracious doing a job. And for a long time, took me years, like almost more than a decade to actually figure I got something really worthwhile in this stuff. I just. And then, and then, you know, trying some different venture. You can't put a photo on uniform. If I could have, I probably would have. But you can't. So I just got someone to draw it up. Shoes and things like my holiday resort, all kinds of stuff. All the dumb things I sprinted my money on. I just. I don't know, I mean I just. Sometimes it just flabbergasts me that I ever succeeded at all. But I think it's the power of basic principles. Even if you're dumb in so many ways, if your principles are right somehow you can, you can survive them.

But also you had a lot of tenacity.

Like it's not this version here, it's the. Yeah, it's not, it's not.

You kept going. You never, you never never stopped.

Yes, yes. My wife says I'm like one of those, you know those plastic things that you put a weight in the middle and you knock them over and they swing back. I'm just like that. I just don't. Nothing discourages me. No matter how much has happened. I just pick myself up and get going like that. Like when I was just married, when I started the business, I just. I just. I just did it. I just didn't. Didn't allow myself to think I'd done stupid things.

Yeah, I know the version you're talking about. There's another version. I know the one you're talking about.

Yeah, yeah.

It looks a bit different.

Yeah.

Another one you told we've got on.

Instagram, I think so the older version, I just had it. It was just a photograph that was taken at the time and I wanted. And I had to put some lettering behind it, but I'm not gonna do it anymore. I'm gonna work hard. And I just did. And I just kept on going and I wouldn't give up. I can't give up. I'm almost incapable of giving up.

One thing I have, one thing I find fascinating at that time was a.

Lot of people and it was kind of like. So I picked a few versions of lettering that I thought were okay and just stuck them around the office to my staff who were answering phones and just said, which one do you prefer? And the reason for this one, one that we use here is because it's. It's very.

These days or it would go into the trap. They always blame something else for their. For their misfortune, whether it could have been the drought, which you could have blamed. However, you didn't do it, which I found, which is quite not the normal. I would say the biggest difference between.

Those who succeed and those who don't. If you don't succeed, you'll blame something else, someone else. If you do succeed, you put it on yourself and say, what can I do better? No matter what happens, what do I need to do? It's my responsibility, I will take.

Because reading through this, you never blamed anything. And that's what I found quite. Going through again, which stood out for me. And I know you know pretty well from doing all this stuff with you, but you never blamed anyone else. It's always yourself where you've always looked.

To, well, the guy who pinched all my money and just disappeared. I mean, you could blame him if you like, but who was the real. Very, very easy to read. That's why it's upper and lowercase. People read lowercase faster. Very big lettering, very bold. So that was all there was to it. I mean, it Was kind of like the amount of thought that went into it, probably like an hour or two, honestly.

How much did it cost to get it done up? How much photographic person?

A few bucks.

It's not a bad investment for what it would be worth now.

Yes, actually for me, for letting myself in that situation of being so lazy, I allowed myself to be ripped off by.

What do you think as a society more recently we're becoming more like that? Blaming everyone else for your misfortunes or something?

I think so. I think it's, it's a, it's a trend today. I do notice it amongst my franchisees, particularly the ones that, you know, you get, you get a franchisee with a. A. A few years later a couple of my staff said, you look a bit grim in that one.

It's a bit more happy this one there, wasn't it? Be more cheerful.

So they, they, they took another photo and did another. A great franchise, you know, 4.9 star rating. You make a mistake and he'll really feel bad about it. You say, look, I shouldn't done that, I'll never do it again. And you look at it and full ownership. I mean, this is a great guy. He just makes a step up once in a year and you get somebody else who makes time after time a logo. I had almost nothing to do with it.

You're quite amazed by how much the logo is sort of, you know, it's sort of when we, when we run competitions before, we say, describe this logo in six words or three words. And it's always hard working Australia, someone.

Does the wrong thing. Oh, no, it's the clothes client's fault, it's the system's fault, it's your fault, it's my franchisor's fault. It won't change. And that's why that first person is good and that second person is poor. We have a word for them, we call them leads in gyms. People who just won't listen. They're not the stupidest. They're people who just say, blame somebody else. I'm not going to change because I'm not the problem. You're the problem. You're the problem. You're the problem. Gym is the problem. Client's the problem, Everybody else the problem. Except me.

I think it's quite an important fan. Iconic young people love it. Are you surprised about how much it's sort of taken a life of itself?

One thing, when I started this thing, I had no comprehension about becoming a bi word. I just didn't, didn't Occur to me. I remember after a few months when.

We point out, because it's not just if anyone likes reading books, let's say it's musk or these really entrepreneurs who've made it really well. I've never ever read one thing where they've blamed someone else for their misfortunes or for their struggles at time. Same the time everyone had struggles to make it where they are. It's always about starting to build.

And it grew a lot faster than I thought. I mean, I had 60 by the end of the first year, which was astonishing. I just.

I could have done this better. I should have done this better. I won't do this again. So now I want to move on as well. During that time as well, you came up with a quite. I think. I think it's quite an impressive thing, which goes understated a bit, is the trailer design. Now, the Jim's mowing trailer design is quite iconic, but the actual way it's designed, like back in the day, as you said, the trailer at the time, you put it into the main part of the body of the trailer, where you didn't want to do that. You had to go on the cage and close the table.

Well, it was because when I was mowing lawns, couldn't believe how successful it was. But people started recognizing me, recognizing the logo and stuff. It's like it was a byword. This is just in Melbourne at this stage. And I just. This is weird. And bear in mind, I had subbies and stuff, so there were trails going over the place. I wanted a better system. And if you put the. The Mara and your brush, cut it into the back of the trailer, there's not much room for rubbish. And rubbish is a big, big factor because the more rubbish you can fit.

In, lot of green waste, all that sort of stuff. Yeah, yeah.

You can make more money. You don't have to go to the tip so often. It's much better. You don't want to disentangle the trailer. So I had no idea, I had no, no, no idea that this would work out that well or it could be recognized. What I actually did was to put a little shelf originally across the drawbar of the trailer. It was a bigger trailer by the time. And I started putting sides on the tricycle or. No, I just didn't know I had the principles. I had the idea, the principles behind it, but I had no concept of how successful it would be.

You're quite proud of that now, looking back on things, how well known it is and what it's known for, it's generally associated with like, you know, six or five words whenever we've done surveys.

Oh too. So it put sights on the trailer and it put a little plate across the drawbar. And then when I found out that actually made it, when you turned the trailer, it sort of banged the edge of the plate and then you'd have to tie the moron to that. You're still bed at the back. So then I made the drawbar longer so that it wouldn't do that. And then what we, what we would.

Stuff, which is always hard working iconic.

Would do then is we would extend the, the, the plate to these width towards the trailer. So you could put two mowers in there and then instead of tying them down, I put a little rim around the outside. And more recently we put a cage round. But all this was basically to do with the way I used to mow lawns. And I wanted something also. I also had the. If there's one thing I'm proud of is that my franchisors in general share my values, which is the value of service. And most of my franchisees do care about their customers. I think that's what I take pride in. I've never. The numbers itself mesh at the front and the back. And the reason for that is because it's very hard to back a trailer if you can't see through it. And also you've got wind resistance issues. So even though from an advertising point of view it's. So it was a trailer that was really specifically designed to be a very practical way of mowing lawns. And the interesting thing about the VIP is neither here nor there. It's, it's not. I don't know, I mean, I probably was that it was the most grossly unpractical way you could possibly do because they actually meant you had to put the grass, all the mower stuff went in the back and you had to put the grass on the roof of the trailer. Now if you ever tried lifting a heavy wet load of grass and try and lift it like up, I often can't comprehend. I've done so well. I really, I mean, when I look at all my stupid decisions I've made, really, I mean, I just look at it and dumb decision after dumb decision after I had no comprehension to that height. That's horrible. So it was, it was it. And also what I had, it was just sort of stumbled into it. This is a. Because I failed academic. I mean, goodness, it's completely boxed in Front and rear. That was good for advertising. You have a big VIP sign at the back. But to my mind it was a lousy trailer to drive. So an interesting thing about it was that it was my design that was actually used by the independents. You never saw gracious doing a job. And for a long time it took me years, like almost more than a decade to actually figure I got something real and independent driving a VIP style trailer. But in fact the guy who used to make our trailers, half of them were for independence because it was the best design. It was recognized as being the best design. So that's what I always think about. Not so much marketing first, but what's my franchisees interest first.

Did you ever think about patenting like doing a painting on the design back in the day?

No, I never.

To me, I don't think you could.

Paint the thing like that.

Okay, well you could have. Maybe you could have. But I'm just trying to think that.

Said you'd be worthwhile in this stuff. I just. And then, and then, you know, trying some different ventures and things like my holiday resort, all kinds of stuff. All the dumb things I printed my money on. I just, I don't know, I mean, I just. Sometimes it just flabbergasts me that I.

Ever did used to draw these things up or how did you go and design it with the, with the bloke you made the.

No, I didn't draw it up. I just make the, make the, make the. I just described it. I said make the drawbar longer and put this, extend this thing and put a rim around it. It wasn't. It just exceeded the tool. But I think it's the power of basic principles. Even if you're done discussions with the trailer manufacturers we used.

Did you do it a couple of times or was it something over time just kept building?

No, we gradually changed it. It started off with the plate and then it started off with making the drawbar longer and then extending the plates and then putting the edges around and then putting the cage on top. I mean it was just, it was one thing after another, just gradually trying it. And later on we did things, we just after them in so many ways. If your principles are right, somehow you can survive them.

But also you had a lot of tenacity. Like you kept going, you never stopped.

Yes, yes. My wife says I'm like one of those. The franchise. We put the trailer boxes on the side. So you put the brush cutters and all the equipment in there. You know those plastic things that you put a Weight in the middle and you knock them over and they swing back. I just like they leave the back completely open for rubbish. It was just a. It was an ongoing process. But that's why we do the same thing with dogwash too. It's everything we. I just don't. Nothing discourages me. No matter how much has happened. I just pick myself up and get going. Like you do is designed. You look at something like a. Like a blue wheelers, you know, with the dog.

It's a big dog head for anyone who's watching, listening.

Yeah, it looks fantastic. It's incredibly great looking design. It's great from a marketing point of view, but it's an appalling system to actually wash dogs in. So to me the comfort, the convenience of the person doing the job is number one. Once you've got that worked out, you can. Like when I was just married, when I started the business, I just figure out the marketing and the signage and everything else. But everything else is secondary to the person who's actually doing that job. I just did it. I just didn't allow myself to think I'd done stupid things. Yeah. But I'm not going to do it anymore. And I got to work hard and I just did and I just kept on going and I wouldn't give up. So what we do with the dog wash trailer is it's a constant iteration. It's going to this and they're saying, okay, what do you need to change? And we get feedback all the time, you know, like making the hole bigger so that it drains quicker. More fur.

Yeah, the fur for all of them.

Yeah. And also. And also making it. Yeah, just the time it takes. I can't give up. I'm almost incapable of giving up.

One thing I find fascinating at that time was a lot of people drained up.

Quite important. You know, you can save yourself 30 seconds. That's 30 seconds more. You, you've got time to work. Making it easy to clean, for example. And then having. We usually had electric heat. What do you put the gas heater in. And then we put air conditioning in when they wanted it up north. So time after time we just change.

And change people these days or it would go into the trap. They always blame something else for their. For their misfortune.

Change the design so all the trailers work the same way. Constant, constant feedback from the users, what's best for you. And marketing image is always secondary.

Whether it could have been the drought, which you could have blamed. However you didn't do it, which I found, which Is quite not the normal. I would say the biggest difference between.

Those who succeed and those who don't is if you don't succeed, your first interest of the person who's doing the job.

And the recent reiteration of the. The new trailer is the solar, the solar retrofits and stuff that's happening. Yes, people can charge battery powered equipment if they're going that route with the trailer.

That's right. Because with battery powered things it's a recharging problem. You don't want to blame something else, someone else. If you do succeed, you put it on yourself and say what can I do better? No matter what happens, don't want to.

Carry 20 batteries around with you.

But this is a way of hugging it on the spot. And again what we did with this, as we do with everything else, we actually did a prototype design and then give it to somebody, go out in the field and use it all day and then trial it and see what the problems are and then get the feedback on. This is all reference. What do I need to do? It's my responsibility. I will take.

Because reading through this, you never blamed anything new.

Now of course, but it's the same principle looking to the person who's actually doing the thing.

And that's what I found quite going through again, which stood out for me. And I know you know pretty well from doing all this stuff with you, but you never blamed anyone else. It's always yourself, where you've always looked.

To the job and what's best for them. And I think that's a powerful thing. It's the same thing with Jim's Jobs which you're working on right now. And Jim's Jobs is a long, long term issue, but it's constant, constant feedback while we're developing this thing, we're getting fit. Well, the guy who pinched all my money and just disappeared, I mean you could blame him if you like, but who was the real fit all the time. And it's very easy people to get to us. So any objection, they have any bug, any problem, any anything they want done, information flows back in and we look at it and we work and we work and work to fix those and bring those in.

So I want to move on now around that time. So you franchising, you've started, you've launched the franchise officially. And around this time there was interstate.

Expense for me for letting myself in that situation of being so lazy I allowed myself to be ripped off by.

What do you think as a society more recently we're Becoming more like that. Blaming everyone else for their misfortunes or something. Ancient stuff which came up and about. I know it was South Australia and in Queensland. And around the time he met Q. Mar was owner. At the time it had been Ron, who's still involved in the business up in Queensland, him and Alana. So may you want to tell us about the interstate expansion? Did you think it would work or how did that come about?

Okay. When I first got a contract for. I think it's a trend today. I do notice it amongst my franchisees. Particular franchise from the lawyers. They had two companies, Jimmy's Mountain, Victoria, Jimmy's Mowing Australia. I said, what on earth did you put that in for? And they said, well, that's in case you want to go interstate. And I said, don't be stupid. The ones that, you know, you get a franchisee with a great franchisee like 4.9 star rating and make a mistake and he'll really feel bad about it, you say, look, this is a mowing business. That was my actual comment. I had no comprehension that would go anywhere except Melbourne. Honestly never thought about it. Never crossed my mind. You shouldn't done that. I'll never do it again and look at it and full ownership. I mean, this. But it was unexpectedly successful. And what happened is that people started coming to me to want to go in, go interstate or join Interstate. It was that kind of a great guy. He just makes a step up once in a year and you get somebody else who makes Time after time inquiries come. People were hearing about this and they wanted to join in. And so, yeah, actually the first person was really in my mind was Phil Mordaur. He was one of my. He was a franchisee in Norsecott. He's a, you know, really fine young bloke and doing very well. And then he volunteered to go to Costa South Australia. And as he said later to me, he had in mind what would Costa Time does the wrong thing. Oh, no, it's the client's fault, it's the system's fault, it's your fault. It's my franchisor's fault going to happen. But I quickly found out that people Interstate didn't do very well because there was no. It wasn't. There just wasn't the support. I could. I could give them leads and I could talk to them, but I. There was no meetings or anything like that, so they mostly seemed to fail. So I actually rang up Phil one day and I said to him, you know, would you like to take the regional franchise Rights for South Australia. He said, yeah, I'll be interested in how much. I said, 10 grand. Pay me off very cheap.

For anyone who knows how much regions are now.

Yes, it was an incredibly great deal for him. He's now multi millionaire too, which I'm very proud of, even though he's not with us any longer. They won't change. And that's why that first person is good and that second person is poor. And we have a word for them. We call them leads in gyms. People who just won't listen. They're not the stupidest. They're people who just actually used to. Found that a ryu.

I know we won't go into it, but he was. I've met him before. He's a nice man.

Yeah, he's a good guy. And actually I learned a lot from him in the early days. And then. And then Calvin and Ron Sadowski, who were the running qmowers, which is the original mower supplier, and they started to see the potential, so. So they made a deal where Ron took the Queensland rights and I think he paid more for it, though, actually.

75, wasn't it?

Say, blame somebody else. I'm not going to change because I'm not the problem. You're the problem. You're the problem. You're the problem. Jim's the problem, client's the problem. Everybody's the problem except me.

I think it's a quite an important thing to point out because it's not just whenever. If anyone likes reading books, let's say it's musk or, you know, these really.

I think it was 75,000.

Yeah, 75 grand.

75,000. What I didn't realize is that he and Phil were in cahoots and they were. She had a share in each other's business, but it doesn't matter anyway.

But he went up to entrepreneurs who've made it really well. There's never. I've never ever read one thing where they've blamed someone else.

Queensland. And he started doing well, too. And he had the rights to Queensland. And shortly after that, he sold the rights to the Gold coast for 95,000. This is insane. I just told you.

For their misfortunes or for their struggles at the time, everyone had struggles to make it where they are. It's always about, I could have done this better. I should have done this better. I won't do this again. So now I want to move on as well.

75 for the whole state. You're selling the Gold coast alone for 95,000. And I almost rang up Steve. The guy said, listen, you know, you're really paying too much for this thing.

During that time as well, you came up with a quite. I think it's quite an impressive thing. Which goes understated a bit. Is the trailer design just out of proportion.

But fortunately for his point of view, I didn't dissuade him because that business is in hell worth huge amount of money.

That's fine. Now the Jim's mowing trailer design is quite iconic but the actual way it's designed, like back in the three different.

Regions and so forth. So he made. He had beautiful lifestyle.

That'd be a fantastic one up there. Up and got, you know, he had.

A nice house on one of those. On those. One of those, you know, those canals or something. Canals, yeah. I remember I mistaken with him once I went to see.

Oh, did you? Yeah, I think they're in Brisbane still. As you said, the trail at the time, you put it into the. The main part of the body of the trout nail or they're not on the Gold coast, are they?

No. This is Ron Sadowski. This is. This is Steve who bought the Gold coast here.

Okay.

Yeah.

But it was trailer where you didn't want to do that. You had to want to have a cage.

And it was because when I was. I was mowing lawns and bear in mind I had subbies and stuff so there were trails going over the place. I. I wanted a better system it was actually. But. But then again nobody realized at the time how successful it could be. Maybe people like Ron and Phil did, I don't know. I never asked them, but they certainly were happy to jump on board. And it was kind of like. It was more that Sydney was started off by one of my franchisees in Victoria, that was Richard Selui and then he sold out too. And if you put the Mara and your brush cut into the back of the trailer, there's not much room for rubbish. And rubbish is a big. To Peter Hanson, who was actually working for me as a manager in the office. In fact the only big factor because the more rubbish you can fit in.

Lot of green waste, all that sort of stuff. Yeah, yeah.

You could make mistakes that didn't start out that way was. Was Tasmania and West Australia from the.

Outside now at the time before. So this is a concept of the franchisor was sort of born around this time.

Right.

You had state managers before that didn't do too well, was it?

No, I didn't have state managers because they're More money. You don't have to go to the tip so often it's much better. You don't want to disentangle the trailer. So what I actually did was to put a little shelf originally across the drawbar of the trailer because we weren't really outside the state in those days.

So how did this concept of a franchisor then come about? When you said state rights, what was the actual intention was that when that.

Well, it was because I recognised that it wasn't working very well when it got beyond see when it was just around me, it was really good, very personal. Everybody would come to me. We have meetings in my lounge room, just a circle of chairs and then a second circle as it got bigger. And that was great and everybody was excited. It was a bigger trailer by the time. And I started putting sides on the trout of them positive. But then the further we got from Melbourne, the less well it worked well. Even eastern Melbourne and Interstate was the worst of all. So I put sights on the trailer and I put a little plate across the drawbar. And then when I just figured out you needed somebody more local to look after them. I didn't know exactly what. I didn't really understand how important meetings were, for example. I think that was one of the main lacks. But so it just. I almost gave them away. They were so cheap in the beginning because I just didn't think that I found out that actually made it. When you turned the trailer, it sort of banged the edge of the plate and then you have to tie the mar on to that. You still bend at the back. So then I didn't see the. I just didn't see the upside, the potential in all these things. But I just figured you needed somewhere closer to hand.

And how long did it take you to sort of up the price and the regions after that? Was it after the Queensland one with Ron or.

Made the drawbar longer so that it wouldn't do that. And then what we. What we. Well, most of them already stopped by that time, you see. I mean. I mean probably Sydney, New South Wales soft would do then is we would extend the plate to these with the trailer about 60 grand. Gee Wheels. What a very good investment Multi millions of dollars now. Yes.

But saying that they, you know, at the time there was still a little bit of risk, although there would have been a bit of risk I guess for them. Had to move into stay, had to have a crack, had to back a new.

I wasn't. I wasn't. So you could put two mowers in There. And then instead of tying them down, I put a little rim around the out. I wasn't really ever focused on. On getting the most money for them. I just wanted somebody good to make it work, look after my franchisees properly. That was my biggest thing. I didn't. I want my franchisees to be cared for in the way that I did.

Ron's still there. Ron's still up there in Queensland. Ron still there. Had his 30 anniversary, 30 years strong. And pain is still there outside.

And more recently, we put a cage round. But all this was basically to do with. With the way I used to mow lawns. And I wanted something also. I also had the. The as well.

Even though he came second with that region, but he's still around.

Yeah.

Peter and Chris.

Yeah. I am taking immense pride in the people that started with me and done so well. Fresh at the front and the back. And the reason for that is because it's very hard to back a trailer if you can't see through it. Franchisors, many franchisees too. I think I probably take more pride in that than I do in the fact that I've done well, which obviously I have.

I was gonna say I was reading.

The book and sometimes also you've got wind resistance issues. So even though from an advertising point of view, it's.

That was a very Warsonola tale in the book. But sometimes. I'm not saying I get defensive for you, but some of the comments from people when I know how well they've done out of gyms, I found it quite, you know, I found it quite, you know, not saying I'm grateful, but I thought it was quite. A lot of people have done quite well out of gyms. And then you read some of the.

So it was a trailer that was really specifically designed to be a very practical way of mowing lawns. And the interesting thing about the VIP.

Things was a bit.

Look, it's natural to think that you're the person that did it all. Well, it was. That it was the grossly unpractical way you could possibly do because they actually meant you had to. It's your own effort. And the gym did nothing for me and didn't give much support, but that's quite common idea. I don't think people recognize how much we do.

Yeah, I think. And that's what kept coming back for me as well. You know, you have people who have made multi million dollar business through a lot of their effort on their own, but it's not a. It's Not a.

Obviously they do good things. Put the grass, all the mower stuff went in the back and you had to put the grass on the roof of the trailer. They wouldn't have achieved that level of success. But at the same time, sometimes people don't recognize that. But I don't really mind. I mean, I just, I don't require gratitude. I just require people to look after my franchisees. And I get very. I don't know if somebody says to me now, if you ever try lifting a heavy wet load of grass and try and lift it like up to that height, that's horrible. So it was. It was it. And also me, I, you know, you've done nothing for me and so forth. I'm not happy about it. But that's completely boxed in, front and rear. That was good for advertising. You have a big VIP sign at the back. Same time. I'm not. It doesn't devastate me. But when one of my franchisees said I'm not getting looked after and people aren't calling me back or I get very upset. It's just, it's an emotional thing, definitely.

So let's keep moving on here. So during the time as well, do you remember how you used to manage work back in the day and distribute jobs? I remember reading about margarine containers. Margarine containers. And then you had then eventually upgrade to pages, which.

But to my mind it was a lousy trolley to drive.

So you thought was cutting, which was cutting edge technology at the time and you gave pages to everyone that in 1990 you developed or you had the idea to come up with fms. Maybe you want to talk about that process of technology.

The interesting thing about it was that it was my design that was actually used by the independents. You never saw an independent driving a VIP style trailer. But in fact the guy used to make our trailers.

You transition from the margarine slips, putting your slips in here.

Well, it wasn't so much one thing, it was just a series of.

Yeah, but they're pretty close together. Like it was pretty. You went from that slip system to pages. Then you had fms.

Half of them were for independence because it was the best design. It was recognized as being the best design. So that's what. Yeah, well, yeah, but that FMS is just the name we called it. It was more of a steady process from, you know, doing things like, for example, we used to take the job and then we put it into a, into a little like a lunch basket, lunchbox with dividers. It could go Towards a certain franchise. Then we had a black book. It was actually black when you wrote up. If you always think about it, not so much marketing first, but what's my franchisees interest? First franchise would really need to say how much work they needed and have a list of what suburbs they were down for this kind of thing.

They would bring up every. Did you ever think about patterning, like doing a painting on the design back in the day?

No, it never occurred to me. I don't think you could paint the thing like that.

Okay, well you could have. Maybe you could have, but I'm just trying to think now. So you added to do that and you update the board and then we.

Ring up and we give them the jobs. Yeah, and then we got the paging system. And so originally somebody have to actually. And we actually asked the franchisees to if they wanted to get a paging system. Which is interesting because VIP actually just.

Did you used to draw these things up or how did you go and design it with the. With the bloke you made it?

No, I didn't draw it up. I just make the pose the paging system on the guys and gave them a charge and they had this massive revolt and all these problems. I actually asked my guy whether they wanted to get pages and they said yes. So it was a very different way of approaching things. And it was quite successful because then they could get jobs in the field on that day. And then we figured out that you could. I just describe it. I said make the drawbar longer and put this. Extend this thing and put a rim around it. It was just discussions with the trailer manufacturers we used.

Did you do that a couple of times or was it something over time and just kept building?

You could actually put the jobs in instead of having to ring up the paging company. You could actually. No, we gradually changed them. It started off with the plate and then it started off with making the drawbar. Put them in the computer and had them automatically packed. That was a giant leap because you might have four or five people working in the office and only one person was actually taking the calls. It was very, very costly. Longer and then extending the plates and then putting the edges around and then putting the cage on top. So gradually, bit by bit, we automated the process until we had a system now where franchises go online and they can put down for work electronically. And then. And then a job comes in and just automatically goes to the right person. But it was. It was step by step. It was. It was the.

It's quite a one off live revolutionary. Because I remember reading the process of how you did it and hearing all the terminology, like you'd update your blackboard, which is your work requirements now and you can go through there. And that was quite that process of back in the day when you did it. Then all the stuff that we have now was developed from that. Margarine containers from the slips and you basically just systemized and made into a system. It's obviously a lot more advanced than what it was now as territory rights.

I mean it was just. It was one thing after another, just gradually trying it. And later on we did things which is after the franchise. We put the trailer boxes on the side so you put the brush cutters and other equipment in there. So you leave the back completely open for rubbish. It was just a. It was an ongoing program, all that sort of stuff.

But I thought it was quite interesting seeing the manual process of the project and how it's now.

But that's why we do think we did the same thing with dog watch too. We, we.

It's everything, it's automated.

Yeah.

It's highly systemized.

Well in the beginning we actually, we actually got somebody called James, young bloke James to actually come up with his idea. He came up with. And he. And he was the one that's telling me you could do this, we could do this, could do this. Eventually I hired my own person, my own IT person which was Stuart, who's still with us.

He is still with us. Yep. How long is that? 20, 25, 26 years.

Must be something like that.

Something like that.

It's a while you do is designed. You look at something like a. Like a blue Wheelers, you know with the dog.

It's a big dog head for anyone who's watching, listening.

Yeah, it looks fantastic. It's incredibly great looking design. It's great from a marketing point of view, but it's enough. I couldn't have learned to make a redundant. I was gonna say he's with us for life.

What a character he is. Yeah.

He knows the system inside.

He absolutely does. Yeah.

Until very recently actually I had three people working for me still who were actually with me from the time appalling system to actually wash dogs in. So to me the comfort went gyms with a single not very big office.

Was that in the Bayswater one? Was that a one before that?

That was before that in East Burwood? Yeah. Two of them resigned and got into other things. But weren't fired.

No, they weren't, no, no.

And Stuart is still there. So I'm quite proud of that actually. We've got people. In fact both Val and Shirley were, were used to take calls and then they moved to other jobs. The convenience of the person doing the job is number one. Once you've got that worked out, you can figure out the marketing and the signage and everything else, but everything else is secondary to the person who's actually doing that job. As the business progressed.

But was at that time in the 1990s, was that software development at the time, was it something of the normal. Was it something that. Because it's a custom program, I thought. I think it was quite interesting how it got developed.

Well, it was in the air, computers were coming in.

But there would be nothing like that on the market. There was no existing software, was there?

Well, it's still not on the market, is it? But I suppose it's fairly advanced. But I mean I was probably a bit slow to catch up. If I, if I'd have figured out I could have done something fairly similar probably back in 1989 if I had any. If I knew what I was doing, I really didn't have a clue. I mean I made some. I mean I keep on talking about dumb mistakes, but it's true. I started off completely miscalculating the amount of cost it would take to run my system, which was actually incredibly. So what we do with the dog wash trailer is it's a constant iteration. It's going to this. And they're saying okay, what do you need to change? And we get feedback all the time, you know, like making the hole bigger so that it drains quicker.

More fur. Yeah, the furthrow.

Yeah. And also, and also making it. Yeah, just the time it takes to drain it out is quite important. You need to save yourself 30 seconds. That's 30 seconds more. You've got time to work making it easy to clean, for example. And then, and then having. We usually had electric, heat, water, labor intensive. I charged, I only charged half the ongoing fees that I needed to just to break even.

Yeah, I was going to touch on that because yeah, the pretty dine out. Dire financial times when you had a business consultant look at your business and that's some of the stuff they come up with.

Yeah, well they said, they said basically, look, you need double the number of franchisees to be able to cover your costs. But if I doubled the franchisees I'd double my cost. So it wouldn't. Wasn't really going to help at all. And that's when I realized, that's when I went I basically went back to my franchisees and said guys, I need to double your fees.

And how was that received?

Well, the first time they knocked me back which gas heater in and then we put air conditioning in when they wanted it up north. So time after time we just changed and changed the design. So all the trailers worked the same way. Constant, constant feedback from the users. Surprising. And then one of the guy, really great guy actually came to me and said Jim, you didn't present it very well. He said, come through, give it the figures, show us the full thing and do a report. And so I came back as what's best for you. And marketing image is always secondary first interest of the person who's doing the job.

And the recent reiteration of the new trailer is the sold.

And they did it again. And so I got them to agree to double it. Majority vote.

I think it was a 63% vote at the time.

If I hadn't agreed to that, the business would have gone under. I couldn't have done it.

Yeah. So that's another quite important thing was that vote, wasn't it that voting to franchisees. And when you had that guy who actually said, you know, I understand what you're doing but you need to put it in better terms so I can understand it. That's quite a very important moment.

And this guy was actually had far more business experience than me. I think that was Ian Lusted actually is his name. Yeah.

Well the solar retrofits and stuff that's happening.

Yes.

People can charge battery powered equipment if they're going that route.

Let him run a B and B down at Philip island, which we used to stay at it sometimes A great.

Great couple with the trailer.

That's right. Because, because with, with battery power things it's, it's a recharging problem, you know.

Are you still same do you or.

No, not now. Okay. But after, after he left Jim's. Yeah, but I, I'm pretty sure that was Ian who said that to me. Yeah, but it was.

Well, thank you Ian, because it will obviously who knows what would happen.

Don't want to carry 20, 20 batteries.

Around with you back around.

But this is a way of hugging on the spot. And again what we did with this, as we do with everything else, we actually did a prototype design and then given there was some, there was some, there were some great people and I didn't really know much, but I was doing them, you know, I was must have been about what, 39, 30s. So I really didn't know what I was doing a great deal and I made all these dumb mistakes and everything. But I think the thing was I did care about my franchisees and I think they recognize that. I mean, they get annoyed at me at times, but for all kinds of things they do, especially when I go on about mistakes and stuff. But I think to somebody go out in the field and use it all day and then trial it and say, see what the problems are and then get the feedback on this. Most franchisees that I have contact with recognize that I'm really concerned about their welfare. So very new now, of course, but it's the same principle looking to the person who's actually doing the. That was an extraordinary situation. But you know, they just understood the job and what's best for them. And I think that's, that's a powerful thing. It's the same thing with Jim's job. What I was doing cost money to do it properly because it wasn't the easiest way to do it. The holes which you're working on right now and children's jobs is a long, long term issue or business of giving jobs to people who needed them rather than just randomly throwing them out was expensive, but that was the best service because you see if you have five people who are down for an area potentially, but only one wants work and the others don't, you've got to know who that person is, you got to give it to them because otherwise he doesn't get the income that he needs or she these days.

And obviously now you've got fms, which is a system which does it automatically. There's a lead allocation system that looks at certain things before distributing lead.

We still work on that, but it's constant, constant feedback. While we're developing this thing, we're getting feedback all the time and it's very easy people to get to us. So any objection they have. It's a process that never ends. One of the things we're working on now, I hope to have by the end of the year. Any bug, any problem, problem, any, anything they want done, information flows back in and we look at it. It's a system whereby the franchisee can tell us when they would like to do a quote and then we can actually sit and book the job in for them instead of. So when, when the client rings up, instead of saying somebody ringing me worker. We work and work to fix those and bring those in.

So I want to move on now, around at a time. So you frame your back.

They say, well, what about drops from between 2 and 4 this afternoon and the franchisees lets us know that he has availability to quote in those times.

I think that's the next step because you can do a lot of stuff online with that and it just keeps on.

It just keeps on going. It is endless. But that, that was very important. I mean financially speaking it was really, really close run thing at the beginning but.

And around about that time as well I think it was Ron, I thought it was a quite interesting story with the number. The numbers you've started, you've launched the franchise officially and around this time there was interstate expansion stuff which came up and about. I know it was South Australia and. And in Queensland and around the time he met Quite well known 131 Jim 131546 and at the time he went with a different number. I think he went chose a Hugh Mower's owner at the time it had been Ron who's still involved in the business up in Queensland. Him in Alana 1300 or 1800 number I think Ron and his business partner at the time paid two grand. Yes mate, do you want to tell us about the interstate expansion? Did you think it would work or how'd that come about? Okay, by the 131546 year number.

Yeah, that's right.

Did you have to pay. Did you have to pay money to get off him or.

Oh, we would have been by agreement.

Right.

I would have covered his cost or something like that. Yeah, I think it was Ron's idea actually.

Yes, I was reading that and I found it quite interesting because there's always.

I think one of my main advantages in business is that I'm really very stupid in a lot of ways. But I listened when I first got a contract for the people and I don't mind listening. I don't mind being wrong and if somebody's got a better idea than me I will listen. Franchise from the lawyers. They had two companies. Jimin's Mowing Victoria, Jimmy's Mowing Australia. I said what on earth did you put that in for? And they said well that's in case you want to go interstate. And I said don't be stupid to them which is so I can learn from people who have better ideas like Ron's idea. 131546 obviously it's a better concept than what I had but he was the one that thought about it. There's so many things too like the new logo for example. It's clearly better than the old one but it wasn't my Nicht It's a mowing business. That was my actual comment. I had no comprehension that would go in and there's so many things go on. There's barely a week that goes by that we don't get something from franchisee or franchisor to change what we do. I'm always listening.

Heaps of stuff like the harness course is one and there's people coming back three years into the business to do some more business training. There's heaps of things.

Things. Yeah, I think, I think you don't have to be the smartest guy in the room you just have to listen to the smartest guys in the room.

Well there's, there's always a quote, you know if you're the smartest guy in the room you're in the wrong room. Right.

Anywhere except Melbourne. Honestly never thought about. Never crossed my mind but it was unexpectedly successful and what happened is that people started coming to me to want.

That's in your own business. So. But I was going to say it's.

It's.

Well yeah, it's quite. How do you find that though sometimes how do you. Like you're always interested in someone else's ideas. You know it doesn't matter who they are, you know, it doesn't matter where they are. Like you've got. You've got that humility where you. Where you listen to them, isn't it?

You've never ever go into state or join interstate. It was that kind of inquiries coming. People were hearing about this and they wanted to join in and so yeah actually the first person.

I've never ever heard you knock knocks down someone. Some idea. It could be an 18 year old doing work experience or something. I've never heard you knock back. Do you think that's something you've had to work on? Is that something just been more innate in you?

Was really in my mind was Phil Mordaur. He was one of my. He was a franchisee in Northcote. Now you have to work on it because sometimes the natural reaction is when somebody says something disagrees with you to actually just argue with them. You got to think about it first. I do make a conscious effort.

Is there something where you go away and think about then maybe come back later sometimes or Sometimes yeah. I've noticed that sometimes with you. Sometimes yeah. You might not agree with it but then you might go away and think of it then come back a couple of days later or something.

Yeah, I often react very quickly to things and then. And then. And then ponder around that word humility I know it's a strange word but it's actually one of your. He's a, you know, really fine young bloke and doing very well. And then he volunteered to go across to South Australia and as he said later to me, he had in mind what was going to happen. But I quickly found out that people in the state didn't do very well because. Because there was no, there just wasn't the support. I could give them leads and I could talk to them. But those cardinal business virtues, it really is. If you look at someone like Haydar, for example, Haydar Hussain, who's one of the most capable guys I know and who leaves me in awe. There was no meetings or anything like that, so they mostly seem to fail. So I actually. Ideas he comes up with and the systems that he sets in place that we actually try and imitate a lot of them too. But he's an incredibly humble guy. He would just listen and he'll take up ideas and he'll just listen to anybody. Rang up to Phil one day and I said to him, you know, would you like to take the regional franchise rights for South Australia?

I think that's what I've noticed as well about him and yourself is you guys are multi millionaires, yet you'll listen to people.

Yeah, I'd be interested in how much. I said ten grand. Pay me off very cheap.

For anyone who knows people who haven't done what you've done, you know, I think that takes a level of. Definitely takes a little of humility, but it takes a. It just takes a level of something different else. You know, a lot of people who could be the multi million. Why would I listen to this person? How much reasons are now?

Yes, it was an incredibly great deal for him.

He's not, you know, working for someone else or whatever it is, you know, it does take a level of skill.

Yeah, people have a certain ego that they have to be right now multi millionaire too, which is successful, I'm very proud of, even though he's not with us any longer. The worst thing, because then they're not.

Well, you said it here, money corrupts character. Which was in these chapters, which I didn't read it out but I think it goes back to this. Whereas, you know, you could have, you could have, you know. Well, in everyone's eyes you're highly successful and you don't have to listen to anyone really. So as you said, it's something that you actually used. I know we won't go into. But he was, I've met him before. He's a nice. Got to work on. But have you found out over the years, just. I just find it interesting, like, you don't have to listen to anyone, but you can.

Yeah, he's a good guy. And actually I learned a lot from him in the early days, and then.

I still do, if that makes sense.

Yeah. Well, I want my business to succeed, so I want to know what's being said. The hardest thing, actually, is not so much listening, but getting people and Ron Sadowski, who were the running Q mowers, which is the original mower supplier. And they tell you. We had discussion just a couple of months back. Yeah. And I said, this was a great, very good decision made by somebody else. And you said to me, well, I started to see the potential. So they made a deal where Ron took the Queenslander. Thought that I said, but you didn't tell me.

That's true. Yeah.

So I hope you learned that lesson.

I have learned that lesson. Yeah.

Very, very true. You did know. I didn't see it. You saw it, but you didn't pass it on, but somebody else did. So it's kind of like getting people to tell you. But, you know, when we used to have those sessions, Buddha and I think he. He paid more for it, though.

Actually, it was 75, wasn't it?

I thought that they said. But you didn't tell me.

That's true.

Yeah. So I hope you learned that lesson.

I have learned that lesson. Yep. Very, very true.

You did know. I didn't see it. You saw it, but you didn't pass it on, but somebody else did. So it's kind of like getting people to tell you. But, you know, when we used to have those sessions, when I used to go into insurance and you would come up with all these ideas and stuff, which is when I started to think this. I think it was 75,000.

Yeah, 75 grand.

75,000. What I didn't realize is that he and Phil were in cahoots. And I go, go into insurance. And you would come up with all these ideas and stuff, which is when I started to think that she had a share in each other's business. But it doesn't matter anyway. But he went up to, this guy's got something there. But it's because you're prepared to talk to and bring out what you knew.

Also, I think business owners have to be prepared to listen as well. And as you said, the ego. I think the ego gets in the way of so many people.

This guy's got something There but it's because you're prepared to talk to and bring out what you knew.

Also making better decisions for the business is like, you know, they could be a multi millionaire. Why do I have to listen to this person? Or they think business owners have to be prepared to listen as well. And as you said, the ego. I think the ego gets in the way of so many people. This person is just a pencil put like an assistant in the office, for example. What would they know?

There's very.

Making better decisions for the business is like, you know, they could be a multi millionaire. What if they listen to this person.

Or this Queensland and he started doing well too and shortly after he had the rights to Queensland and shortly after.

Person is just a pencil put like an assistant in the office, for example. What would they know?

There's various kinds of motivations and I think one of the most powerful one is from a social psychologist called David McLellan. He said there's three basic motivations for doing things. One is affiliation, the desire to be liked. One is power, the desire to be in control. And one is achievement, which is the desire to get something done. I'm very, very achievement oriented. Extremely. I just look at what's the best for the organization, what's the best for my people, my franchisees as a whole. Power doesn't come into it. I'm quite happy to give away power. I don't care. I make people make decisions. That he sold the rights to the gold coast for 95,000. This is insane. I've just sold you in 75 for the whole state. You're selling the Gold coast alone for 95,000. In fact, I have a conscious thing when it comes to office staff or anybody, if there's kinds of motivations and I think one of the most powerful one is from a social psychologist called David McLellan. Suggestion made if I don't have a strong reason for being against it, I'll tend to almost rang up Steve. The guy said, listen, you know, you're really paying too much for this thing. I say yes because I know that if I say no, there's three basic motivations for doing things. One is affiliation, desire to be liked. It demoralizes that person. If I say yes, it helps them. So it leans the balance. Even though there's no real way to go. It leans the balance. If I know it's something that will motivate something. One is power, the desire being in control. And one is achievement, which is the desire to get something done. I'm very, very achievement oriented. Extremely. To come up with more ideas. Now whether that idea was particularly a good one or not is another matter. If it was a really bad idea, I would say so I say this is why I think that's a bad idea. But if it's not just out of proportion but fortunately from his point of view, I didn't dissuade him because there's a lot to it. It's good to say yes to people as much as possible because at every level it motivates them. I just look at what's the best for the organization. What's the best for my people, my franchisees as a whole. If a franchisee knows that their idea is taken up and as you know, we always make a big thing about that. If a franchisee has an idea that's accepted would actually let everybody know. So it gives them power. Doesn't come into it. I'm quite happy to give away power. I don't care. I make people make decisions. Hey, this person thought of this.

Yeah. I think it's important for people to be heard as well, especially in a franchise organ.

That business is now worth huge amount of money that's been split into three different regions and so forth. So he made. He had beautiful lifestyle. In fact I have a conscious thing when it comes to office staff or anybody if there's a suggestion made if I don't have a strong reason for being against it, I'll tend to fantastic.

One up there up and got.

You know he had a nice house on one of those almost one of.

Those, you know, there's canals of civilization. It's not just one way communication coming from because that tells everybody.

It tells like. Like when Dn Hinder say yes because. Because I know that if I say no it didn't come up with that idea about. About automatically updating, taking unservice leave. He told everybody about it which is not only for his sake recognizing what he achieved. His suggestion, which was basically a throwaway suggestion just in a line in an email but also tells everybody else hey, here's someone who spoke out and was listened to.

Yeah, I don't think organizations take enough do enough of that stuff demoralizes that person.

If I say yes, it helps them so it leans the balance. Even though there's no real way to go. It leans the balance if I know it's something that'll motivate somebody to come up with more ideas. Now whether that idea was particularly a good one or not is another matter. If it was a canals. Yeah, I remember I Mistaken once I went to school.

Oh, did you? Yeah, I think they're in Brisbane still.

Really bad idea. I would say so I said this is why I think that's a bad idea.

But if it's not, they're not on the Gold coast, are they?

This is Ron Sadowski, this is Steve who bought the Gold coast. But it was actually. But then again nobody realized at the time how successful it could be. Maybe people. I think one of the things, and I often think it's very odd that I spend so much of my time talking to franchisees, often by email rather than doing CEO type stuff. But I actually find that it seems to work the best because I, I get the widest range of. I'm easily accessible to it. It's good to say yes to people as much as possible because at every level it motivates them. People like Ron and Phil did, I don't know, I never asked them, but they certainly were happy to jump on board. Because I'm not doing a lot most of the time I'm not involved in typical CEO stuff. A franchisee knows that their idea is taken up and as you know, we always make a big thing about that. If a franchisee has an idea that, that accepted would actually let everybody know. So it gives them. So I'm just listening, listening, listening all the time and adjusting and adopting and saying why status. Hey, this person thought of this.

Yeah. And I think it's important for people to be heard as well, especially in a franchise organization.

Let's change things.

Well, it goes away from the company's values, I think. Well, what you want to do if you're doing just CEO type stuff, I don't think it'd interest you too much to be honest. Would it?

Well, 4,000 people are going to have a lot better ideas than one. I do have some pretty good ideas at times too. But most of the good ideas come from other organizations.

It's not just one way of communication coming from because that tells everybody.

It tells like when they DN hinders.

People and you adjust based on feedback as well. So if you do have an idea, you do put it out there or you say what are you thinking?

It was kind of like it was more that Sydney was started off by one of my franchisees in say the.

Newsletters, which is quite common and you do votes and stuff all the time.

So advisory committee works and come up with an idea about automatically updating, taking and service very well that way too. I love the advisory committee because you just throw it to, you know, Some pretty experienced people and say what do you think? We told everybody about it which is not only from his sake recognizing what he achieved his and very commonly they'll come up with ideas you never thought of and then in Victoria that was Richard Selui and then later he sold out to Peter Hanson who was actually working for me as a manager in the office. In fact the only question which was basically a throwaway suggestion just in a line in an email but also tells everybody once you've talked it through and got something that's more reasonable then you get a vote on it and you've already got a it's been thought through and then you can present it in a more war. Hey, here's someone who spoke out and was listened to.

Yeah I don't think organisations take enough do enough of that stuff.

The states that didn't start out that way was Tasmania and West Australia that come from wide fashion I think that's one of our best innovations and that's all about listening and having things like our clauses that allow franchisors and franchisees to veto changes to their own manuals. I think that's been a very positive outcome.

Well we do run I think one.

Of the things and I often think it's very odd that I spend so much of my time talking to franchise.

All the time don't we? There's always votes in the newsletter or franchise law newsletter which goes yeah and it's always accepted it's ease off of.

My email and rather than doing CEO type stuff But I actually find that it seems to work the best because I get the widest range of I'm.

Easily accessible really changed after that is it?

Well I like it too because when somebody objects to something policy I say well that's actually a decision by the advisory committee it's in the manual if.

You want outside now at the time before so this is the concept of the franchise all sort of born around.

This time it changed your the advisory committee which is a lot easier for them to try and persuade me to change my mind. Very true Because I'm not doing a lot most of the time I'm not I'm not involved in typical CEO stuff.

I want to touch on something just before we end that one up there as well was the something you had in the time which was during the drought so we'll go back to the drought time you had an act of God clause which you had to invoke during the drought in your time.

Right.

You had state managers before that that didn't do too well, was it?

No, I didn't know State managers because we weren't really outside the state in those days.

So how did this concept of a franchise all then come about? When you said State Rock said it was one of the most horrible things in your business career that you ever had to do. Do you maybe just touch on that a little bit?

Well, that was. So I'm just listening, listening, listening all the time and adjusting and adopting and saying, why don't let's change things?

Well, it goes away from the company's values, I think. Well, what you want to do if you're doing just because of the sort.

Of the income guarantee thing.

The income guarantee, sorry. Yes.

At that time and I just had CEO type stuff.

I don't think it'd interest you too much, to be honest with you. No.

Well, 4,000 people are going to have a lot better right to. But it was. It was horrifying. I just felt so bad. It was. It was a terrible drought. There's no question it was justified in a sense, but I just thought I was betraying people. I've never done such a thing ever since. I just felt so bad about it.

But you removed it, didn't you? You removed it.

Ideas than one. I do have some pretty good ideas at times too, but most of the good ideas come from other people after that. Removed it.

Yeah, yeah.

I said I'm never going to be in a situation where I need to do that ever again.

But did you need that? But was people. And you adjust based on feedback as well. So if you do have an idea, you do put it out there or you say what do you think? In let's say the newsletters, which is quite common and you do votes and stuff all the time.

So advisory committee works. Right.

What was the actual intention was that when that.

Well, it was because I recognized that it wasn't working very well when it got beyond very well that way too. I love your advisory committee because you just throw it to, you know, some pretty experienced people and say what do you think? See, when it was just around me, it was really good, very personal. Everybody would come to me.

You needed to do that was just because of. To keep the company going. You had to.

Yeah, I wouldn't have survived otherwise.

Yeah. Okay, so we'll leave it there. Jim. So thanks for this. That was the first. That was the two chapters three and four as well. So we'll do some more as well. But some great feedback, some great business stuff. So hopefully people take that. I Want to clip up that thing about value where you said about the value of how you give all that sort of stuff. I think that's a really important message.

For people in my lounge room just a circle of chairs and then a second circle as it got bigger and that was great and everybody was excited and positive and but then the further we got from Melbourne the less and very commonly they'll come up with ideas you never thought of and then once you've talked it through and got something that's more reasonable then you get a vote on it and you've already got.

It to get to know. So if you've got any suggestions for anyone please leave them in the comments podcast as well which is the Jim's cast leave us a writing review then every Wednesday night at 7 o' clock we do ask Jim which is the concept of giving value on a live platform. So if you want to ask Jim anything which we do answer we had.

A heap it's been thought through and then you can present it in the more in a war we always get.

A heap of questions I never refuse.

To answer anything that's true even the.

Bad ones There are some wide fashion.

I think that's one of our best innovations and that's all about listening and having things like our arms layer but.

It'S always about giving value. So I think it's. I think it's quite pertinent to discuss that today with what we our clauses.

That allow franchisors and franchisees to.

Doing now moving forward the content so thanks guys for watching and listening and please make sure you leave a rating review or share if possible.

Veto changes to their own manuals. I think that's been a very positive outcome.

Well we do run well it worked.

Even east of Melbourne an interstate was the worst of all and I just figured out you needed somebody more local to look after them I didn't know exactly what I didn't really understand all.

The time don't we there's always votes in the newsletter or franchise or newsletter which go and it's always accepted it's never really changed after that, is it?

Well I like it too because when somebody. Standard how important meetings were for example I think that was one of the main lacks but so it just. I almost gave them away they were so cheap in the beginning because I just didn't think that. Objects to something policy I say well that's actually a decision by the advisory committee it's in the manual if you want. To change it go to the advisory committee which is a lot easier for them to try and persuade me to change my mind. Very true.

So I want to touch on something. Just before we end that one up there as well was the something that you had in the time which was during the drought. So we'll go back to the drought time you had an act of God clause which you had to invoke during the drought.

I didn't see the. I just didn't see the upside.

The potential said it was one of the most horrible things in your business career that you ever had to do. Do you maybe just touch on that a little bit?

Well, that was in all these things. But I just figured you needed something closer to hand.

How long did it take you to.

Because of the sort of the income guarantee thing.

The income guarantee. Sorry. Yes, at that time.

And I just had to. But it was horrifying. I just felt so bad. It was a terrible drought. There's no question that it was justified in a sense, but I just felt I was betraying people.

Sort of up the price. And the regions after that. Was it after the Queensland one with Ron or.

Well, most of them already stopped by that time, you see. I mean. I mean probably Sydney, New South Wales was sold. I've never done such a thing ever since. I just felt so bad about it.

But you removed it, didn't you? You removed it.

After that. Removed it, yeah. Yeah. I said I'm never going to be in a situation where I need to do that ever again.

But did you need that? But was. You needed to. That was just because of. To keep the company going. You had to. Yeah.

I don't. I wouldn't have survived otherwise. About 60 grand.

What a very good investment.

That was. Multi. Millions of dollars now.

Okay, so we'll leave it there. Jim. So thanks for this. That was the first. That was the two chapters three and four as well. So. Now.

Yes.

But saying that they, you know, at the time there was still a little bit of risk or there would have been a bit of risk going, I guess for them. Had to move into, stay, had to have a crack, had to back a new.

I wasn't. I wasn't. I wasn't really ever focused on. On getting the most money for them. I just wanted somebody good to. To make it work, look after my franchisees properly. That was my biggest thing. I didn't. I want my franchisees to be cared for in the way that I did.

Ron's still there. Ron. Ron's still up there in Queensland. Ron still there. Had his 30 years.

Yeah.

30 years strong. And Peter's still there as well, even though he came second with that region. But he's still around.

Yeah.

Peter and Chris.

Yeah. I am taking immense pride in the people that started with me and done so well. Franchisors, many franchisees too. I think I probably take more pride in that than I do in the fact that I've done well, which obviously I have.

I was going to say I was reading the book and sometimes, I know it was a very warson old tale in the book, but sometimes. I'm not saying I get defensive for you, but sometimes some of the comments from people when I know how well they've done out of gyms, I found it quite, you know, I found it quite, you know, not saying I'm grateful, but I thought it was quite a lot of people have done quite well out of gyms. And then you read some of the things and it was a bit.

Look, it's natural to think that you're the person that did it all. It's your own effort. And the gym did nothing for me and didn't give much support. But that's quite common idea. I don't think people recognize how much we do.

Yeah, I think that. And that's what kept coming back for me as well. You know, you have people who have made multi million dollar business through there, through a lot of their effort on their own, but it's not a, it's not a.

Obviously they do good things, they wouldn't have achieved that level of success. But at the same time, sometimes people don't recognize that. But I don't really mind. I mean, I just, I don't require gratitude, I just require people to look after my franchisees. And I get very. I don't know if somebody says to me, I, you know, you've done nothing for me and so forth. I'm not happy about it, but at the same time I'm not. It doesn't devastate me, but when one of my franchisees said I'm not getting looked after and people aren't calling me back or I get very upset. It's just, it's an emotional thing, definitely.

So let's keep moving on here. So during the time as well, do you remember how you used to manage work back in the day and distribute jobs? I remember reading about margarine containers. Margarine containers. And then you had then eventually upgraded to pages which you thought was cutting, which was cutting edge technology at the time and you gave pages to everyone. Then in 1990, you developed or you had the idea to come up with fms. Maybe you want to talk about that process of technology and you transition from the margarine slips, putting your slips in here.

Well, it wasn't so much one thing, it was just a series of.

But they're pretty close together. Like it was pretty. You went from that slip system to pages, then you had fms.

Yeah, well, yeah, but FMS is just the name we called it. It was more of a steady process from doing things like, for example, we used to take the job and then we put it into a little like a lunch basket, lunchbox with dividers. It could go towards a certain franchise. Then we had a blackboard we used actually black, where you wrote up every franchise. We really need to say how much work they needed and have a list of what suburbs they were down for this kind of thing.

And they would bring up every day to do that. And you update the board and work them out.

And then they'd ring up and we'd give them the jobs. And then we got the paging system. And so originally somebody had to actually. And we actually asked the franchisees to if they wanted to get a paging system, which is interesting because VIP actually just imposed the paging system on the guys and gave them a charge. And they had this massive revolt and all these problems. I actually asked my guy whether they wanted to get pagers and they said yes. So it was a very different way of approaching things. And it was quite successful because then they could get jobs in the field on their day. And then we figured out that you could, you could actually put the jobs in instead of having to ring up the paging company, you could actually put them in the computer and have them automatically paid. That was a giant leap because you might have four or five people working in the office and only one person was actually taking the calls. It was very, very costly. So gradually, bit by bit, we automated the process until we have a system now where franchises go online and they can put down for work electronically. And then a job comes in and just automatically goes to the right person. But it was, it was step by step. It was, it was the.

It's quite a one off live revolutionary because I remember reading the process of how you did it and then hearing all the terminology, like you'd update your blackbird, which is your work requirements now, and you can go through there. And that was quite that process of back in the day when you did it. Then all the stuff that we have now was developed from that margarine. Containers from the slips and you basically just systemized and made into a system. It's obviously a lot more advanced than what it was now it's territory rights and all that sort of stuff. But I thought it was quite interesting, seeing the manual process of the project and how now it's automated, it's highly systemised.

Well, at the beginning we actually got somebody called James, young bloke James, to actually come up with his idea. He came up with it and he was the one that's telling me, you could do this, we could do this, we could do this. Eventually I hired my own person, my own IT person, which was Stuart, who's still with us.

He is still with us, yep. How long is that? 20, 25, 26 years.

Must be something like that.

Something like that. It's a while.

Yeah, that's for sure. I couldn't ever let him make him redundant because he got fortunate. I was gonna say he's with us for life.

Yeah, but what a character he is. Yeah.

He knows the system inside.

He absolutely does, yeah.

Until very recently, actually, I had three people working for me still who were actually with. With me from the time when Jim's with a single, not very big office.

Was that in the Bayswater one or was that a one before that?

That was before that. Before that in East Burwood? Yeah. Two of them since resigned and gone to other things. But weren't fired?

No, they weren't, no, no, Stuart is.

Still there, so I'm quite proud of that, actually. We've got people. In fact, both Val and Shirley were used to take calls and they moved to other jobs as the business progressed.

But at that time, in the 1990s, was that software development at the time, was it something of the normal. Was it something that. Because it's a custom program, I thought the thing was quite interesting, how it got developed.

Well, it was in the air, computers were coming in, but there would be.

Nothing like that on the market. There was no existing software, was there?

Well, it's still not on the market, is it? But I suppose it's fairly advanced. But I mean, I was probably a bit slow to catch up. If I. If I'd have figured it out, I could have done something fairly similar, probably back in 1989, if I had any. If I knew what I was doing, I really didn't have a clue. I mean, I made some. I mean, I keep on talking about dumb mistakes, but it's true. I started off completely miscalculating the amount of cost it would take to run my System, which was actually incredibly labor intensive. I only charged half the ongoing fees that I needed to just to break even.

Yeah, I was going to touch on that because, yeah, the pretty dying out. Dire financial times when you had a business consultant look at your business and that's some of the stuff they come up with.

Yeah, well, they said basically, look, you need double the number of franchisees to be able to cover your costs. But if I doubled the franchisees, I'd double my costs. So it wasn't really going to help at all. And that's when I realized that's what I went. I basically went back to my franchisees and said, guys, I need to double your fees.

And how was that received?

Well, the first time they knocked me back, which is not surprising. And then one of the guy, really great guy, actually came to me and said, Jim, you didn't present it very well. He said, come through, give us the figures, show us the full thing and do a report. And so I came back and did it again. And so I got them to agree to double it. Majority vote.

I think it was a 63% vote at the time.

If I hadn't agreed to that, the business would have gone under. I couldn't have.

Yeah, yeah. So that's, that's another quite important thing was that vote, wasn't it, that voting to franchisees and when you had that guy who actually said, you know, I understand what you're doing, but you need to put it in better terms so they can understand it. That's quite a very important moment.

And this guy was actually had far more business experience than me. I think that was Ian Lasted, actually, is his name. Yeah. Let him run a B and B down at Philip island, which we used to stay at it sometimes. A great, great couple.

Oh, you still see him, do you or.

No, not now. Okay. But after, after he left Jim's. Yeah, but I'm pretty sure that was Ian who said that to me. Yeah, but it was.

Well, thank you, Ian. Because obviously, who knows what would have happened.

There was some, there was some. There were some great people and I didn't really know much, but I was doing them, you know, I was must have been about, what, 30s? So I really didn't know what. I was doing a great deal and I made all these dumb mistakes and everything, but I think the thing was I did care about my franchisees and I think they recognize that. I mean, they get annoyed at me at times, but all kinds of things they do, especially when I go on about mistakes and stuff. But I think most franchisees that I have contact with recognize that I'm really concerned about their welfare. So that was an extraordinary situation. But, you know, they just understood that what I was doing would cost money to do it properly because it wasn't the easiest way to do it. The whole business of giving jobs to people who needed them rather than just randomly throwing them out was expensive, but that was the best service because you see if you have five people who are down for an area potentially, but only one wants work and the others don't, you've got to know who that person is, you've got to give it to them because otherwise he doesn't get the income that he needs or she these days.

And obviously now you've got fms, which is a system which does it automatically. There's a lead allocation system. It looks at certain things before distributing a lead.

We still work on that. I mean. I mean, a process that never ends. One of the things we're working on now, I hope to have by the end of the year is a system whereby the franchisee can tell us when they would like to do a quote and then we can actually sit and book the job in for them instead of. So when the client rings up, instead of saying, somebody ring you back, they say, well, what about jobs between 2 and 4 this afternoon? And the franchisee lets us know that he has availability to quote in those times.

I think that's the next step because you can do a lot of stuff online with that and it just keeps on.

It just keeps ongoing. It is endless. But that was very important. I mean, financially speaking, it was really, really close run thing at the beginning, but.

And around about that time as well. I think it was Ron. I thought it was quite an interesting story with the number. The number's quite well known. 131 Gym, 131546. And at the time you went for a different number, I think you went chose a 1300 or 1800 number. I think Ron and his business partner at the time paid two grand to buy the 131546 gym number.

Yeah, that's right.

Did you have to pay. Did you have to pay money to get off him or.

Oh, it would have been by agreement.

Right.

I would have covered his cost or something like that. Yeah, I think it was Ron's idea, actually.

Yes, I was reading that and I found it quite interesting because there's always.

I think one of my main advantages of business is that I'm really very stupid in a lot of ways. But I listen to people and I don't mind listening, I don't mind being wrong. And if somebody's got a better idea than me, I will listen to them. Which is so I can learn from people who have better ideas. Like Ron's idea 131546. Obviously it's a better concept than what I had, but he was the one that thought about it. There's so many things too, like the new logo, for example. It's clearly better than the old one, but it wasn't my initiative and that. So many things go on. There's barely a week that goes by that we don't get something from franchisee or franchisor to change what we do. I'm always listening.

Heaps of stuff. Like the harness course is one. And there's people coming back three years into the business to do some more business training. There's heaps of things.

Yeah, I think, I think you don't have to be the smartest guy in the room, you just have to listen to the smartest guys in the room.

Well, there's always a quote, you know, if you're the smartest guy in the room, you're in the wrong room.

Right.

That's in your own business. So. But I was gonna say it's. Well, it's quite. How do you find that though, sometimes? How do you, like you're always interested in someone else's ideas, you know, it doesn't matter who they are, you know, it doesn't matter where they are. Like you've got, you've got that humility where you listen to them, isn't it? You've never ever. I've never ever heard you knock down someone. Some idea. It could be an 18 year old doing work experience or something. I've never heard you knock back. Do you think that's something you've had to work on? Is that something that's been more innate in you?

No, you have to work on it. Because sometimes the natural reaction is when somebody says something disagrees with you to actually just argue with them. You've got to think about it first. I do make a conscious effort.

Is there something where you go away and think about then maybe come back later? Sometimes or Sometimes, Yeah, I've noticed that sometimes with you, sometimes you might not agree with it, but then you might go away and think of it, then come back a couple of days later or something.

Yeah, I often react very quickly to things and then ponder around that word, humility. I know it's a strange word, but it's actually one of the most cardinal business virtues. It really is. If you look at someone like Haydar, for example, Haydar Hussein.