A Diet & Lifestyle Protocol to Reverse Autoimmunity with Dr. Terry Wahls

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Whoa, whoa, whoa. This show is about you, not about me. I want to help you find practical, real world ways to dial in your health and mindset so you can finally lose that weight and feel strong and energized. Stop settling for less than your personal best. It's time to find out how to look and feel better than ever. And I'll be right here with you the whole way. And she's back by popular demand. So I was doing a podcast with Dr. Terry Wahls who has over 3 million views on her TED talk, showing how she basically reversed her got out of the wheelchair, reversed her Ms. And we did this podcast. It was so good. That was like you have to just come back. You have to come back. So here's the deal. You're going to want to listen to her first podcast because it tells her whole story of getting out of her wheelchair and how she did it. And then the second podcast today we are going to walk through the Wahls protocol, her Wahls diet. What you should be eating, what you shouldn't be eating, what a typical day looks like. And you're also going to get a copy of a one pager of it for free. And all you need to do to grab that is jjvirgin.com forward/walls diet. You spell that W A H L S Diet. All right, let me tell you a little bit about Dr. Terry Walls before we dive into it. She is a clinical professor at the University of Iowa where she conducts clinical trials testing the efficacy of therapeutic lifestyle to treat multiple sclerosis related symptoms. And now remember, I want you to remember that this is really about, you know this, this is for autoimmune. So if you've got autoimmune, if you're concerned about autoimmune, anyone in your family's got autoimmune.

This is. Listen up.

Because what she has done is so groundbreaking. She's the author of the Wahls Protocol, How I Beat Progressive Ms. Using Paleo Principles and Functional Medicine, and the cookbook the Wahls Protocol Cooking for Life, the revolutionary modern Paleo plan to treat all chronic autoimmune conditions. She hosts the Walls Protocol seminar every summer where people can learn how to implement the protocol with ease and success. I'm also going to put up here her Instagram and Facebook and Twitter handles because she has. She does the greatest posts. And I'm not going to tell you what came up in this talk. It was crazy in this interview. Something amazing about what she travels with, which she puts carries on the airplane. It's advanced level. So I'm not telling you. You're gonna have to listen to it. It's hilarious. And she's my new hero. That's all I have to say. Now before we dive into the podcast, I want to do a shout out to my name isn't Amber. I'm sure there's a story there on my name is an Amber says great quick info. 5 stars. I've been a follower JJ since the Virgin Diet, which changed my life. That was in all caps. That's why I yelled. I only listened to a few podcasts, so the fact that I subscribe and actually listen to every one of JJ says a lot about her. I love that they are all roughly 20 to 30 minutes and have so many different topics that I somehow always relate to. I hope to run into JJ sometime at my local Whole Foods or Sprout stores. Hey, cool. So when you run into me, I want to know what your name really is since your name isn't Amber. And by the way, thanks for the five star review. And yeah, I'm, I'm like a Tampa ite now. So what they're called. I know it's not a tampon. Please tell me it's not. And so at Whole Foods, I'm kind of hooked on this, this Fresh Kitchen. And so Fresh Kitchen, they're two different ones. I'm just loving it there. And if you're there too, hopefully we can, we should have a meetup or something. So if you guys are keen on doing that, you know, like let let me know on my Instagram or Facebook page. Okay, awesome. I'm going to dive in to this amazing interview. But before I do want to share this favorite with you.

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Dr. Terry Walls, welcome back. I am super excited to keep digging into your diet with you today.

Great. Thank you so much for having me.

Yes. Now for everybody listening, so here's the deal. We did an interview and it was so good. And then I was looking at the time going, oh, my gosh. Like, like, I need way more time with this brilliant mind. And so we immediately set up a time to do another podcast. So what we're going to do today, first of all, in the show notes, I will put down the list, the link to the first podcast so that you can listen to both of them because you'll definitely want to do that. And also in the show notes, you are going to get access to what we're going to really walk through today, which is the Wahls Diet. You'll get a one pager on that as well, so you know exactly what to do do. What I'm going to do is I'll put the show notes@jjvirchon.com Wahls Diet. You spell that W A H L S Diet. So Wahls Diet That'll make it easy. And what I think would be a great place to start because I know last time we talked heavily about your story of how you got for people don't know your story, how you got out of a, you know, a ms, that you were going downhill, you were in a wheelchair and how you turned all of that around. Like here you are, medical doctor turning the whole like idea of autoimmune and Ms. And something that you can't turn around, that whole idea turn around on its head. Like you have changed, like changed thinking worldwide. It's amazing. And doing that with this Wahl's diet. But we didn't really have time to get into the key part of this, which is the Wahl's diet. So that's what we're going to do today, right?

Yes, absolutely.

Okay, cool. All right. So again, I'll put into the show notes the first episode so you can kind of go through Terri's story because it's mind blowing. And then today we're going to dive into this. So let's dive into the Wahls diet. And I know we'll also talk about some of the latest research which is coming out too. But let's just walk through the diet itself.

So there are two components. The first one are the foods you exclude. And I exclude gluten containing grains and severely restrict even the gluten free grains. So you could have two servings of that a week. So just a little bit. We also remove all dairy protein, so that's milk, yogurt, cheeses, even goat and other animals. And we remove eggs, remove those foods because they can be very inflammatory and cause abnormal immune response in genetically vulnerable individuals with a leaky gut and a leaky brain. Then we ramp up the vegetables. And I do it in a very particular way because I'm going after key nutrients. We have three cups of green leafy vegetables because they're great sources of vitamin K and great sources of magnesium, carotenoids, nutrients that are really critical for making myelin, critical for eye health and critical for stem cells. Then the next category are the sulfur rich cabbage family onion family mushroom family vegetables because these induced enzymes are involved in making neurotransmitters. Enzymes are involved in detoxifying and processing the trash out of your cells. And then the third category is deeply colored pigmented vegetables and berries. So beets, carrots, berries. Study after study shows that these colors are associated with lower risk of cancers, of heart attacks, obesity, but most importantly, improved thinking ability, better cognitive performance. In studies of folks with early cognitive decline, you can reverse, improve cognition, improve thinking. In 24 weeks with a cup of blueberries, that's an immeasurable one cup of blueberries. One cup of blueberries, and it's measurable in just 16 to 24 weeks.

Wow. And that's not even like, it's not like you're saying, hey, you know what? You have to eat some steamed Brussels sprouts every day. This is not like a painful situation. Right?

So easy. This is so easy. So that. And then we ask people, get rid of the shelf stable processed foods, because most of these foods are loaded with food additives that add to your leaky gut. They are high glycemic index.

Well, they're not food. I mean, I think that's the key. You know, it was so crazy, Terry. I had to. I was doing a TV show in Tampa and I had to go get what I call food porn. And so I went to a grocery store, a regular one. I hadn't been to a regular grocery store in years. And I, as I'm walking around pulling out these items that I needed to have for food porn, it struck me that most of the food, most of the things in the supermarket are not food. Like these processed foods. They're not like, this is ridiculous. They're not food. It's just garbage food.

Like chemicals.

Yes, that's a good way of chemicals. And I also want to shout out, I love the way that you just categorized these vegetables as deep green leafies and then sulfur rich and then pigmented, highly pigmented. That's a great, great way to categorize them. That's fantastic.

You know, and as I, you know, implemented this for myself, I first started out with these long lists of foods I needed to eat. And then when I started using this in my clinics, I had to come up with a way of teaching people these foods to add to their diet in a way that they could easily remember and I could convey, you know, in a 20 minute visit. And so that's how I came up with the greens, the sulfur rich cabbage, onion, mushroom family, and things that are colored all the way through when you cut it down the middle. So an apple, red on the outside, white on the inside, isn't part of that colored category so good? Yeah. And so this gives you maximal nutrition for those vegetables. We have slightly different instructions for people who are committed to being vegetarian or vegan because of their spiritual beliefs. And then I have plans for people who are ketogenic because there are some great research on the benefits of being Ketogenic, but you have to do that carefully and it's certainly not for everyone. And I also want to make clear I love the paleo diet, but I went paleo two years into my illness, but I continue to decline for the next five years. So for me, a paleo diet wasn't nourishing enough. I had to get be much more specific in order for me to recover.

Well, what you're saying here, too, is something I really want to underscore because I think it is the most key, important thing that is coming out nutrition that we've got. Because people go, well, I tried that diet and it didn't work. Here's the thing, you know, there is no one diet for everybody. There's going to be elements that will work and elements that you might need to shift, just like you said, you know, Paleo took me so far, and then I needed into some, add some more things in. Some people might do well on keto, some people don't. So this is where you've really got to go through. And what you started to do first was connect those dots, right? You went first, got to one level and then went, all right, what do I need to do next? And you can get close and then you'll have to do some of your individuality. So we've got some key, I mean, some key things. I think that, you know, most people, like, I don't know anyone who's, who's not going to feel better by taking out a bunch of processed crap and containing grains, right?

Like, I mean, you're certainly going to improve. We may need to tweak this further. You know, depending on your genetics, you might have to have a lower dose of sulfur or you might need a slightly lower dose of greens. But this is, you know, the basic diet where I start everyone in my clinics and my clinical trials here. And then depending on their response and their unique clinical issues, I may make further adjustments. But this is a great place for everyone to start.

It's fantastic. And, you know, I think one of the first things we have to really move to is everyone wants that. It's like going to, to buy a car. And you go to buy the car and you're concerned about the color of the paint and what kind of wheels you're going to get instead of looking at the engine and I look at a lot of the stuff we do in diet, and everyone's like, okay, well, is this keto or is this pale? And go, well, isn't that first about the quality of the food? Because if the first thing we really started to do was like, let's get, let's unprocess your diet and start to really elevate the, the food quality and add more, add more vegetables and a lot of stuff gets better. And then we start to just refine and refine and refine. So I know one of the big things here you pulled out gluten containing grains, which I just love, and then really restricted any other types of grains because I think that's one of the big rebound things that starts to happen as people go gluten free. They think all of a sudden they can have all this other garbage, you know, which is like crazy.

Absolutely. They still have 6 to 10 servings of grain per day, very high glycemic index, way too many carbs. And having 10 servings of gluten free grains is pretty terrible for you as well.

Well, I also used to see, not so much anymore, but you know, people all of a sudden would come in, I found these great gluten free cookies and gluten free muffins and gluten free cupcakes. I go, whoa, whoa. You know, you weren't eating. Here's, here's what you want to look at for gluten free. Something that doesn't need a label to say. It is like just. Yes, like avocados don't need to say gluten free on the label. That's what you want to look for. So you have been using this in your clinic and I know now you're starting to do research and I'll tell you something, because I'd love to, I know you've done some research on, you know, when you pull these foods out, what happens with nutrients. Because one of the things that happened to me early on, and I actually never, never look at social media late at night. Right, we know that. But early on I had an RD tweet at me and when I was, I think it was when I was doing public television talking about pulling out gluten, dairy, eggs, soy, corn, peanuts. And she attacked me and said I was going to create nutrient deficiencies.

Yes. Oh, yeah. You know, the RDs in the institution, the hospital at the university and the VA were very concerned about this and they really pushed back. When we did our very first trial, I was required to do a pre trial and where we analyzed my diet to show that I wasn't causing nutritional problems. And so we did that. I kept a three day weight food record and the nutritionist who analyzed that came back and said, you know, this is the most nutrient dense diet I've ever analyzed in the 30 years that she's been doing dietary assessment research. So we had permission to do the study. And when we analyzed again the nutrient intake of that first group of 10 patients, the nutrient density went up remarkably, just from the foods, the vitamins, the minerals, the essential fats. Vitamin K went up, of course, quite dramatically because of all those screens. We're going back and we'll have a bigger analysis of some of this data. But we most recently analyzed the menus from the Wahl's diet study that we're doing right now and the Swank diet in the study that we're doing now. And we went through this very, very comprehensive analysis of the menus. Then we modeled the diets, both diets, again with a very comprehensive analysis. And you and I are not surprised. There was no evidence for serious nutritional deficiencies. There was potential for inadequate amounts of calcium, but their theory was that by eliminating grains, you don't have enough B vitamins. Quite wrong. We had plenty of B vitamins, we had plenty of folate, we had plenty of B12. We had a terrific amount of minerals. We had a great amount of magnesium. We have a great amount of vitamin K, vitamin A. We had a terrific amount of carotenoids, these very important antioxidants for your retinal health, for your brain. And so you can acknowledge that when you eliminate these whole food groups, if the diet is designed particularly with stressing, lots of greens, because greens are the most nutritionally dense parts of the plant, that you'll still have a high quality diet.

You know, it's interesting too, when you look at it, what you've pulled out are a lot of what, you know, it's always been called empty calories. But when you look at a lot of these calories, they're high caloric, low nutrient density. I mean, look at the most nutrient dense foods out there. They're deep green leafies, they're not grains.

Yes. And when they said they're worried that people won't have enough B vitamins to pull out grains, that's because they add in synthetic vitamins.

Yeah, just add in some synthetic folic acid. That would just be awesome. Could we talk about the problem there? Because that would be.

Yeah, let's talk about synthetic folic acid. So synthetic folic acid has been associated with higher risk of adverse health outcomes. Not folate, that's in our green leaves or methylfolate that your functional medicine doc may talk with you about. But synthetic Folic acid is a problem.

And they add that to your cereals and stuff. Right?

Add that to your cereals. When you're having lots of cereals, lots of breads, the folic acid intake is very high. And if you're taking cheap B vitamins, they may also be adding more synthetic folic acid. That. That is a huge problem. The. These synthetic forms of vitamins are a problem. Our bodies expect the forms of the vitamins that were actually in food and in food where the. The animal was eating the food that it expects to eat. So cows were expecting to eat grass. They weren't expecting to eat grain. Our dairy cows that eat grass, you know, live 15 years. The dairy cows that are in the barn all day being given BCG and corn live two years.

Wow, that is crazy.

And that. So is the product from animals that are being fed an artificial diet, that have a shortened lifespan, that have their own metabolic diseases. Diabetes, fatty liver disease, terrible arthritis. Are those meats good for us? That's a really big question.

That always drives me crazy. Here's the other thing that drives me crazy, Terry, is that they'll go, red meat's bad for you. And I'm like, well, which red meat? You know, it's just. You cannot. You cannot possibly compare those two cows as the same thing. You cannot possibly say that's the same red meat. It's a completely different food source.

You know what? I'm really simplistic in my thinking. If red meat was really bad for us over the hundreds of thousands of years that humans evolved, when we quit eating so many plants developed a gut that allowed us to eat meat and grow larger brains. If meat was bad for us, our ancestral mothers and fathers would not have had reproductive success.

There you go.

So the current meat may be bad for us. And is it bad for us because we're feeding those animals the wrong kinds of food? Maybe. Is it bad for us because we're feeding ourselves and a lot of sugar and processed food? So we've changed our microbiome. So we've changed our ability of our gut bacteria to digest and properly assimilate that food. Well, that might be the other problem.

Yeah, I never even thought about that. Because it's not just that we're eating something that's entirely different, but we're entirely different eating it.

Correct. And we've changed our microbiome hugely. You know, 300 years ago, we had a teaspoon of sugar a day, you know, so maybe a couple pounds in a year. Now we're having £153 in a year. So we have radically changed the makeup of the microbes in our gut.

Yeah.

Which radically changes the metabolites that get into our bloodstream and the impact of the food that we eat.

I want to bring up one other thing too, because it's another one that kept coming up for me and coming up for me. And I just love that you did the research to show this all to disprove this. But, you know, when I started talking in the virgin diet about pulling out gluten and pulling out dairy, well, the first thing that happens is I said pull out dairy. You know the question I got asked?

Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

What about my bones? So you said that the one thing they noticed was a little bit of lower calcium. But I just wonder if you're not eating as a acidic of a diet.

Well, in America, we keep increasing the amount of calcium that we're supposed to eat in our diet because of the epidemics of osteoporosis. But the big driver of how much calcium I absorb is my vitamin D level. And so we're all inside, we're terrified of the sun, we put on sunscreen. So we have an epidemic of low vitamin D. On top of that, we have an epidemic of low vitamin K2. And K2 is what controls. So vitamin D controls how much calcium I absorb. Vitamin K2 controls whether the calcium will go to my blood vessels or my bones. If my vitamin K2 is very low, all that calcium goes into my blood vessels, causing hardening of the arteries and ectopic calcium. But if my K2 is high because I eat so many greens and so much grass fed meat, then the calcium goes to my teeth and bones.

And again, don't you think it's just that we've been. We're so simplistic. Like I look at when people talk about osteoporosis, they go, I need to take my calcium. And I go, you need to lift weights, manage your stress, take, make sure you got vitamin D with K. You know, it's like there's so many things here. And we go, I need to take my calcium.

And if you take your calcium, all you gotta do is make hardening of the arteries and put a lot of calcium on your blood vessels and your heart valves.

So in fact, the way your diet's designed with the levels it has is probably exactly where it should be.

Yes, yes, I think it's where it should be because we're asking people to monitor their D. Get plenty of K, eat grass Fed meats will get more K2 in D. And in my program I have people deal with lifting weights and if they can afford it, vibration therapy as well.

Excellent.

So again, I want to reiterate, we're going to give you the the handout of a day of the diet, of the Wahls diet. And you're going to be able to get that@jjvirgin.com Wahlsdiet that's W A H L S diet. But before we wrap up, I'd love you just to walk through like a typical day of eating just so everyone sees how simple this really is to do. And you can also, by the way, we'll put it in the show notes because you do gorgeous posts on social of your food. I love them.

So there are a couple ways of doing this. I typically eat one meal a day. So I'll have tea in the morning and then the evening I'll come home, I'll have a huge green salad. I'll have whatever meat that we're having that day. And then I'll have fermented vegetables on top and some beets, carrots. I will have a chia seed pudding that I've made in the morning and and let sort of ferment all day, have that. And berries in the evening when I'm with friends because I'll eat socially with my friends. I'll have when I was traveling, go have sauteed vegetables in the morning with a side of meat, perhaps breakfast steak or breakfast sausage and tea. And then if I'm with friends going out, I'll have again a huge salad with a protein source. I was in Florida, so we had grouper and we had salmon. And then in the evening again salad, grilled vegetables and meat on the side. And my dessert is berries.

Yeah.

So easy.

Like this is easy. You can do this anywhere. And that's the other takeaway like you talked about when you did it at home, when you did it traveling. Not hard, right?

Not hard at all. Not hard at all. The other thing I do to make it easy, travel. I carry a head of cabbage in my luggage. I slice it up. And so because I eat a lot of vegetables, it's hard to get the amount of vegetables that I eat on the road. So I take a head of cabbage on the plane and another one in my luggage.

Okay, that is really, really funny. Do you ever post that on social media? I just wonder what, what do these, what does the TSA guy say when he sees this head of cabbage in your carry on?

It always gets Pulled out. And they open it up, they're like.

And they're laughing in that cabbage, young lady.

Like, the ASMR folks love it because I'll periodically make videos of myself eating my cabbage in the airport. And, you know, I'll get like 40,000 views on those posts when I'm just eating my cabbage.

That is hilarious. That's so good. That is so good. You are my hero with the cabbage.

I.

That's it. All right, so I want to remind everyone again, jj virgin.com forward/walls diet and again, W A H L S Diet. We'll also put the link to the other podcast. You can hear the whole story and that also will put the link to your 3 million plus views, TED Talk and your book, the Walls Protocol. So we got you all hooked up. And again, Terri, thank you for coming back and walking us through this. It's so awesome and your work is amazing. Amazing. So thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. This is the time where I answer a listener's question and remember, pop on over to Instagram and Facebook, JJ Virgin and JJ Virgin official Instagram and Facebook and join me live. That's where I pull my questions out of. And I think I was on one of my veggie rants the other day and got this one. It was jj. I travel all the time. How do I make sure that I get my vegetables in? And here's the deal with that. First off, like, I'm sorry, but Dr. Terry Walls is my new hero with putting cabbage in her luggage. Like, that's a whole, whole nother level. I bow down to her. One of the things that I always do is I love to go to vet, I love to go to vegetables, I love to go to the restaurant and get a salad and then I'll get extra sides of vegetables. And quite often, like, you know, if they've got crappy meat, I'm not eating it. So that might be that I'm doing a plant, a plant meal because I got to make sure I'm either having grass fed beef or wild salmon or pasture chicken. If it's not, skip it. Just go and eat some veggies and legumes. And so I'm always looking for, on the, on the menu how I can increase the vegetables and blow out some of those processed carbs. So, you know, I might have some blow out the rice, add in more vegetables, a little bit of black beans. But that's the first thing I would tell you. Now the second thing is, what if you're just like on an airplane all day traveling. What the heck are you going to do, you know? Well, you can put a cabbage in your carry on. Now, we know that. But if you're going international, they're not like, there's no cabbage going with you. So one of the other things that you can do is carry some greens with you. I'm going to do a shout out to a couple I like. I like my girlfriend, Dr. Anna Kabeca. You've heard her on the podcast. She's got Mighty Maca, put a link for that. And then Designs for Health has their paleo greens, lemon lime. So we can put a green. A link to that. And that's what I would say is those are the situations. I don't really love green drinks.

Admit it.

I admit it. I admit it. Okay? But there's times that you need to use these things, and if you love them, awesome, add them in. But if you don't carry them with you when you travel as your veggie insurance policy, because that's when it's. It's much easier to do. And then look at what you can stash into your purse, stash into your carry on. And also get. When you get to wherever you're going. So I'm always looking for that great place where I can get a lot more vegetables in and always, you know, look at a menu and go, how can I get more sides of vegetables? How can I add more salad? How can I look at. I love how Dr. Mark Hyman calls it condominium. Right? How can I do order more that way? And what can I replace in the starchy carbs unless they are not processed. Processed. How can I replace some of those with more vegetables? And honestly, it's just a way of, like, thinking. And it gets super easy to do because I travel all the time. It's just my biggest challenge is when I'm on, like, a plane for an extended period of time. And so that's where the green drinks come in handy. Or cabbage in your suitcase. Okay, Terry. Terry's not gonna like. I am now thinking of all the places that I get to see Terry, and I'm gonna start bringing her cabbage with, like, bows on it. It's just too much. All right, if you have not subscribed yet, you don't want to miss a show. Come on. So go on over there and subscribe. And while you're there, I would love to be able to shout you out on the next podcast. So leave a review, tell me what you're thinking, and if there's something we can do to serve you better here. Like a guest you'd like to hear or a topic you want me to go deep on, let us know. All right? This show is built for all of us, by all of us, so I'd love to respond to what you're most interested in. All right, see you next time. Bye.

That's all for this episode of the JJ Virgin Lifestyle show, which marks another step towards a healthier body and mind. Don't forget to rate, review and subscribe to the show, and we'll talk to you next week.

Hello listeners, this is Anne Boeckle, author, blogger and creator of the podcast what Should I Read next? Since 2016, I've been helping readers bring more joy and delight into their reading lives. Every week, I take all things books and reading with a guest and guide them in discovering their next read. They share three books they love, one book they don't, and what they've been reading lately, and I recommend three titles they may enjoy reading next. Guests have said our conversations are like therapy, troubleshooting issues that have plagued their reading lives for years, and possibly the rest of their lives as well. And of course, recommending books that meet the moment. Whether they are looking for deep introspection to spur or encourage a life change or a frothy page turner to help them escape the stresses of work, school, everything, you'll learn something about yourself as a reader and you'll definitely walk away confident to choose your next read, with a whole list of new books and authors to try. So join us each Tuesday for what Should I Read Next? Subscribe now wherever you're listening to this podcast and Visit our website whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com to find out more.