[Bonus Episode] The Thyroid-Histamine Link with Dr. Becky Campbell

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Hey, it's JJ and welcome to Ask the Health Expert. But this isn't just any old Ask the Health Expert session.

This, this is your bonus session.

Yes, it's the weekend.

And because it's the weekend, we are.

Gonna take some time with an amazing expert. So be on the lookout for these.

Saturday Ask the Health Expert bonus sessions.

Where we're gonna go deep into an amazing subject with an incredible expert to give you actionable items that you can.

Put into your life.

Hey, hey, hey. I am excited today. I'm always excited, excited about these shows. I totally love doing this and I'm super grateful that you're here because if you weren't here, I wouldn't be able to keep doing this. I'd be really lonely. So one of the greatest pleasures in my life is going to events and conferences and meeting amazingly brilliant people because now I can bring them on over to you. So that's one of the great values of having this show, is that I have a great place to share all this incredible information with these brilliant people I meet. And a lot of us on this, on this show, in this community, struggle with a thyroid. I personally had Hashimoto's and worked with my buddy, Dr. Alan Christensen with my thyroid issues. And so we've had a lot of thyroid experts on the show. Dr. Isabella Wentz, Dr. Alan Christensen, Dr. Amy Myers, to name a few. And I was talking to Dr. Becky Campbell, it's hard to say that three times fast, who's a board certified doctor of natural medicine. And she started telling me a connection, a thyroid connection with some foods that I had never heard before. Now, you know, I'm obsessed with food intolerance and gluten and all those things that can get in the way of you losing weight cause you gain weight, mess you up. And so when I heard this one, I'm like, this is going to be good. You guys are going to be super excited to hear this information that she has a lot of it is in her 30 day thyroid reset plan and she is releasing her next book and this will give you a little hint of where we're going. 4 phase histamine reset plan. So we're actually going to talk today about thyroid and she's going to give you some different ways to look at thyroid, including a way to look at a test that uncovered her own thyroid issues when nothing else they weren't showing up anywhere else. But then we're also going to make this connection with thyroid and histamine that is absolutely fascinating. If you are struggling, if you are.

Not getting where you need to be.

With your thyroid disease, this could be why.

So listen, listen up or you gotta.

Flip a friend who's got it. Etc. So also Becky has given her thyroid guide out which you can get at jjvirgin.com forward/thyroidguide. We're also going to be including in an infographic and some more issue information on histamine as well. So lots of goodness in the show notes as always. So again, jjvirgin.com forward/thyroidguide to grab all of that. Now, before we dive into the show, I wanted to do a shout out to Sefco from Canada. Love my Canadians. Love them, love them. Going to Toronto again in a couple of weeks and I cannot wait. I absolutely, I love Canada.

I love Montreal.

I love, love Montreal. By the way. Love Toronto. I love Niagara on the lake. I mean there's just so many awesome places in Toronto. Oh, and Vancouver. And then of course my buddy Dave over on in British Columbia. So anyway, I digress. Let me share this from Sefco. Fantastic, fascinating show is the title. 5 stars. JJ is so direct and to the point, but also fun. Her enthusiasm is contagious and I love how she explains different concepts in such an easy to grasp way. The interviews are always great. I recommend this podcast to anyone with even a passing interest in health or diet.

You'll be hooked.

All right. I love that because you know what I really strive to do? Okay, yes, I am direct. I like to think of myself as tough love with love. But what I really do strive to do is take concepts, make them simple, easy to grasp, but also super actionable. So you go, okay, I heard that.

Now what do I need to do?

So I love that you said that. I super appreciate it. And if you've not jumped on over and left a review, by the way, any review that three star, four star, whatever, like whatever you're feeling, I would love to get these reviews. This is how we decide where we go with the show what's working, what's not working. If there's something you'd like to hear more about, let me know. So that would be awesome because I am always looking for other subjects and stuff based on what you tell me you want. You see, that's how it works. All right, and another thing I want to share with you, another favorite before we dive into the interview. So listen in and I'll be right back.

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Dr. Becky Campbell, welcome to the show. Excited to have you with me.

Thanks. I'm so excited to be here.

Well, we are digging into thyroid today and if, if you're listening, you know that this is a very popular subject in my podcast, but we're going to take a different route today because we're going to talk about some triggers and some foods. There's some really cool information. But I know we've had a chance to talk offline, and I think your story of how you got into this is super fascinating. So let's start there with how you got so interested in thyroid disease.

So I was in college and I was under a large amount of stress, and I never had a weight issue before, but I suddenly gained about 30 pounds. And it seemed like it was overnight and. And then I was just really, really tired. I ended up getting strep throat six times in one year. And my hair was falling out in clumps. And I knew something was wrong. And, you know, I went to a bunch of doctors. Nobody had any answers for me. They, you know, use the conventional lab ranges to test thyroid. So my TSH was right at the top of that range. So they told me I was normal. And it wasn't until I found more of a holistic type of doctor that was willing to do more thorough testing on me that I really realized I did have hypothyroidism. And that's where a lot of this was coming from. And then more. So they were looking into kind of, well, why do I have hypothyroidism? And then I, you know, completely just changed the way I felt. I dropped the weight. I was, you know, not tired. I wasn't losing my hair. And I just knew, you know, I had to help other people with this because I knew there had to be tons of people suffering with the same issue.

So what do you. What did cause this?

Well, I had, you know, the biggest cause of hypothyroidism is Hashimoto's disease. And that's where your body is attacking itself at the thyroid gland and that's causing destruction of the tissue which depletes the thyroid hormones. And I actually was testing negative for this. So there's these autoimmune markers that you can run to see if you have Hashimoto's. And for a really long time, I mean, maybe 10 years, I tested negative. And it was they elevated at all or were. They were within the range. So they were like, one of them is the 0 to 34 range. It was about 10. So it was not. And, you know, even functional medicine practitioners usually typically stay within that range as far as waiting until you go out of the range to diagnose you. And so, you know, I, I definitely know that, you know, gut issues were causing my problem. And cortisol Issues were causing it in viruses and heavy metals. All this stuff was definitely triggering my body to do this. But I was just didn't understand how I couldn't have Hashimoto's, since about 90% of people with thyroid issues do have Hashimoto's. And it wasn't until I had. And I had a few ultrasounds, you know, I had lots of nodules, but no one ever diagnosed me with Hashimoto's on there. And it wasn't until I actually learned how to read the results myself and then actually teamed up with some other endocrinologists who helped me find out that via, you know, ultrasound is how we discovered that I had Hashimoto's. And So it's about 20% of people with Hashimoto's won't have those antibodies present, but then you can see it on the ultrasound. So you know that. Wait a minute.

You could see it on an ultrasound, but you're telling me, like, you had to go learn how to read ultrasounds because it still was being missed that way, too.

Yeah, yeah.

That's crazy.

And I see it in patients now, too. You know, they'll.

They're.

Their doctors will even say, you can't tell if you have Hashimoto's on your ultrasound, and you definitely can. And then some radiologists will write on their report that they have Hashimoto's that was found on the ultrasound. I mean, you absolutely can find out, and it's the only way you can find out for some people. So, you know, if there's ever someone who is coming up with those negative antibodies, you know, it's really important to know if it's an immune system issue. That's what Hashimoto's is. It's an immune system issue causing the thyroid to do what it's doing. So I always tell them, go get an ultrasound, and then I'll read it because it's missed so much. It's crazy.

That should just be standard of care.

Yeah, it should. It definitely should. There's a lot of things that should be that aren't.

Yeah, that's true. That's true. It would seem like if you walk in with symptoms, you should be tested, and that should include an ultrasound. So let's kind of walk through that whole process just for people listening. We have talked about these things before, but this is a different take. And you are the first person I've ever heard say that you should get an ultrasound and that some people won't show up with the titers and will show up with it on an ultrasound. So this is like, groundbreaking stuff. So for people listening, what would be some of the signs that they could have an issue either. Either hypo or hyperthyroid?

So looking at symptoms for hypothyroid, you know, you would. It's usually weight gain is one of the biggest things you see first. It doesn't always have to be, but it's a pretty big sign. Hair loss, fatigue, feeling, you know, cold all the time. You know, usually especially your hands and feet, just. You can't warm up sometimes, you know, you feel a little bit depressed or constipated. It's, you know, it's your metabolism. So everything's slowing down when you have hypothyroidism, which is the under function of the thyroid. And then with hyperthyroidism, it's the opposite. So everything's speeding up. So you're losing weight, you're anxious, you're hot all the time. You know, those types of symptoms, you know, which are just. They're kind of pretty much the opposite. But some people can go in and out of hyper and hypo, actually. So if you then go to a doctor, what happens a lot of the times is they're not even testing the markers for Hashimoto's. They're just doing a tsh.

Yeah.

Which is. Shoot.

They're not even looking at free T3. They're just doing.

Or they're doing a free T4, which is ridiculous because it's. That's the inactive form of thyroid hormone. So it's. You know, and I've seen people who have like, a pituitary suppression pattern where their pituitary is not telling their body. It's not raising their TSH in. In response to low thyroid hormone levels, which is what normally happens. And so their TSH will be like, regular. It'll be about a one, let's say. But then their T3 and T4 are really low. So that's actually a whole nother issue. That's a pituitary suppression pattern. So testing TSH alone is. Is a terrible idea. You're really, really missing out when you do that. So. So anyways, you would want them to run a full thyroid panel. And I'll actually give you guys a download that has my full thyroid panel. What to ask your doctor to run what everything breaks down to, what each marker means, what. What range it should be in, and. And then.

Awesome.

Yeah. Thank you.

Yeah, we'll put this for everybody. We'll put that@jjvirgin.com ThyroidGuide, make it easy. There you go. Thyroid guide. So that's fantastic, because now you have something that you can go armed into your doctor. And by the way, if you go armed into your doctor with this, with stuff, expected symptoms, you go armed saying, this is what I want. They refuse to do it. It's time to find another doctor.

Yeah, fire them. You should fire them. Because honestly, I can't tell you how many people do go in with this guide. And the doctor themselves don't even know what these markers are. They are. They don't even know what is. Reverse T3. Why am I testing it? Why am I testing free T3, which is really. They should know that. And so then they'll refer you to an endocrinologist, but they won't even refer you to an endocrinologist unless your TSH is really high out of the range. So it's. The whole process is not done right, in my opinion, at all.

So it's so common that I'm hoping this will start to shift. And why. I mean, you started mentioning some of the triggers for you.

Yeah.

But I know you treat a lot of this now like what? You know, it's getting really a. Why is it so common? And what are a lot of these triggers? And I would assume that a lot of these triggers that are. That are out there, that are making it so common.

Yeah. So I think that there's a lot of talk about, you know, Epstein Barr going on right now. And for me, I know I did have Epstein Barr and that whole cascade of the strep throat. And then I had an Epstein Barr at that time. And, you know, I didn't realize it, but I literally could not get out of bed, and I would sleep for 12 hours. So now looking back, I know that, that I had that and. And then, you know, when I had the. All of the. The different times I had strep throat, they would give me an antibiotic and they would give me the shot of penicillin. And I remember that day, I would literally, that day get a yeast infection. That's how strong this stuff is at wiping out all the good bacteria. And since I said that Hashimoto's is the biggest cause of hypothyroidism, and that is an autoimmune disease. The immune system is primarily located in the gut. So if you're wiping out all the good bacteria in your gut with antibiotics, you're going to start to develop candida and bacterial issues. And I even had parasites. So I think that that is A root cause of most autoimmune disease. And I really do see, I mean, I would say 98% of my. The people who come to me with hypothyroidism and Hashimoto's have a gut infection. Whether it's a small intestine, bacteria overgrowth or candida or bacterial imbalance in the large intestine or parasites, they have something, and almost all of them have leaky gut. So, you know, first and foremost, I look at the gut and then, you know, again, I look at viruses because a lot of people have had these viruses and they can lie dormant and they can settle into the different organs in the body. And the thyroid is a good place for that to happen. So I see that being a lot of people's story of what kind of drove this in them. And I think, you know, if you're 35 or older and you've had a cavity, you've had mercury put in your mouth, or, you know, any different dental work, they used mercury. And so the same thing can happen with mercury where it gets into the soft tissue of your body and all over your body. And the thyroid is another place that can happen. So I think that. That those are the main reasons that. And then all the stress we have, I mean, there's so much stress. You know, everyone's getting busier and busier and taking on more and more and, you know, having a family and doing all this stuff, it's. It's a lot of pressure and a lot of stress. And that affects our adrenal glands, which secrete cortisol, which is our stress hormone. And the adrenal glands and the thyroid gland run on the same axis. So one affects the other, you know, greatly. So I think that these are really the main reasons I'm seeing. I think we're seeing so much hypothyroidism and hyperthyroidism these days, and especially in women, you know, and I think it's mostly in women due to the. The different hormonal changes we go through in life, you know, with our medicine and having kids and menopause and all that.

And we also handle stress differently, so. Or. Or not. I think we also have a different approach with that as well. So are you seeing when you start to heal the gut and deal with stress? And I'm going to bring up another thing here too, but are you seeing that you can start to turn this around?

Oh, yeah, big time. I mean, I see the main thing, I think that's the most important is, you know, everyone says I want to get off my meds, and I think that that is not the really the best way to look at this, because overall, thyroid medication is one of the most benign medications you can take. And I try to make it very clear to people not to feel bad about having to take it if you do. But I think what you want is to stop the progression of the disease in its tracks, and you want to get to where you feel good again. And so for some people, that looks like getting off their meds and feeling great. And for some people, they stay on their meds, but they don't have to keep increasing because that's what usually happens if you do nothing. And then they can start to lose weight and have that energy and, you know, have no more brain fog. And that's what we're really striving for.

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So I know one of the things that you do, and I always love, I always love when food's involved, is that you have very specific food foods that you tell people to eat, and then once you tell people not to eat and then some discoveries around that. So let's dig into that.

So typically, you know, when you have just, if we're thinking thyroid issue, you're going to start eating a lot of, you know, healthy fats, which would include avocados and, you know, fish, you know, low mercury fish and that type of stuff. And you're going to be doing fermented foods, especially if you've been told you have leaky gut. People pile on the fermented foods. And that can be really great. And it is how I work with thyroid patients, but something that happened with me, and this is how I learned about it and now that I see in other people is, you know, they start a whole 30 or they start keto or they start Paleo, and they're eating a lot of avocados and, like I said, fermented foods, and, you know, even apple cider vinegar, which is a fermented food, but, you know, using that as their salad dressing every day, and lemons and limes and tomatoes and spinach, and they're Getting worse. So what I really started to discover was something called histamine intolerance. And what it is, is that those foods are high in histamine. Even though they're. They're high in nutritional value for some people, they're. They're really not good. And so you can tell if someone's eating a lot of fermented foods and they're starting to feel bad that this is kind of my next step with people is then we start looking into this. And this was me. I. I was eating all these fermented foods because I love them and because I was told they were great for my gut. And I was getting, you know, rashes on my face and in my scalp, and I was getting crawling and tingling sensations on my body and feeling really weird and getting migraines and all these weird symptoms. And this is how I really started to discover histamine intolerance and started. You know, whenever I see this in a patient, I think this right away. So not everybody has an issue with those foods, but some people are lacking the correct enzyme to break down histamine. And so histamine builds up to an intolerable level for them, and it causes a lot of symptoms. And there is a histamine and thyroid connection. And I do talk about that a lot. And I do notice that people who come to me with hypothyroidism can have an issue with reducing the histamine. What, you know, that they're eating and getting through their food. And then in response, also his, you know, increased mast cells, which are the cells that produce histamine and release histamine, that can also lead to autoimmune disease. So they kind of can. Can run off of each other. One can cause the other. So it's. It's a different way that I talk about thyroid than a lot of other people do. And it's something that I really work with a lot of people, and I'm seeing it more and more and more these days. Is this histamine intolerance?

And so do you think that is the histamine? Because you just said the thyroid problem could cause the histamine intolerance, but the histamine intolerance could cause a thyroid problem.

Right.

So first off, are there any tests that you could do to find out if you have a histamine intolerance? Or is the best test it sounds like symptoms, like eating it? And connecting the dots? How do you know?

So the best test is to eat high histamine foods. And I've Written about this on my website, you guys can see, even on my Instagram.

Definitely put that in the show notes to how to follow you because I've seen some great infographics and stuff you have on it.

Yeah. So take that infographic and eat those foods for a couple days and see if you either get any new symptoms or if the symptoms you already have increase. And then get off of those foods for seven days and see if you feel better. And if you feel better, you most likely have histamine intolerance. And the biggest thing here connecting these two is that the cause of both of them can be the same. It can both be very gut related. So the enzyme I was talking about that breaks down histamine is called DAO enzyme. And that is a lot of the times if you have an issue with your gut, you're going to have a reduction in that enzyme. And then back when we talked about autoimmune disorders, if you have the infections in the gut, you're going to have a decrease in the function of the immune system. So it's, it all kind of ties together and they all play off of each other. And it's really, you know, looking at the gut is how I work with most people, but I have to, to alter the diet based on what you have going on.

Now, if someone's histamine intolerant, can this be fixed or are they always histamine intolerant?

If they just have histamine intolerance caused by something like a gut issue or vitamin deficiencies, you know, there's different causes, gluten intolerance, different things like that, which again are the same underlying causes of thyroid disease. You can get rid of histamine intolerance. Most people, I find have histamine intolerance from having something called mast cell activation SYND syndrome, where the mast cells that produce histamine, they're triggered by. There's over 200 triggers to cause the mast cells to release too much histamine. And so your body just can't keep up with that overload of histamine. And then if you're lacking that enzyme to break it down, you just have this, this overload of histamine. You just start having all these symptoms. So if you have that, that's something you would know if you've probably kind of always had issues, you know, even as a kid, you can remember, you know, you got hives or you got headaches as a kid, or you were dizzy a lot, then it's, it's maybe not Something you'll completely get rid of. But it's very, very manageable. It's, I mean, to the point where you don't feel like you have anything going on.

And again, the foods high in histamine. Give us the list of those again.

So fermented foods are really high. Avocados, spinach, tomatoes, eggplant, citrus fruits, dried fruits, aged anything aged, aged cheeses, aged meats. So, like salami, like a charcuterie board, is the. Just a histamine nightmare. It's like the best tasting food. But that's, if you think of that, everything in their olives, you know, anything made in vinegar, that type of stuff. And, and then leftovers can be a problem too, because the longer food sits, the more histamine it produces. And also, people who have leaky gut are also told to do bone broth, which can be great for some people. But the long, you know, when you put. Make bone broth in the slow cooker for 24 to 48 hours, that can be a nightmare for someone with histamine intolerance. So, you know, it's. It's hard. You have to really pay attention to, to how long things are cooking and how long they've been sitting. And, you know, it can be kind of cumbersome at first when you first realize you have a histamine issue because you have to freeze a lot of stuff. And, you know, some people can handle leftovers, some people can't. But a lot of times you have to make what you're going to eat and you have to freeze the rest. And, you know, it. It's not forever. It's really just more in the acute phases. And, you know, I do teach people in phases how to go through all of this, but those are the typical biggest triggers for histamine intolerance.

I think the big takeaway here that is so, so critical is that, you know, we hear about all these healthy foods and we tend to get, you know, when kale was. Everyone was eating kale. And then it's avocados and then it's coconuts. Like, maybe, maybe not. And that's, I mean, that's the bigger overarching is, you know, as we start to get more and more and more into personalized nutrition, we'll realize that, you know, there is no, there's no one thing that's great for everybody.

There isn't.

No.

And I tell everybody that. I say, like, people will be like, what do you think of keto? And I'll say, I think it's good for some people. For some people I think it's terrible. It really depends on the person, you know, and, and everybody's different and everyone's going to respond differently to foods. I mean, I think that there's some universal foods that are just going to cause tons of inflammation in the body that everyone should never eat. But you know, I can't say that everyone should eat every, you know, quote unquote healthy food because it's going to react differently for to different people in their bodies.

Yeah.

Yeah. I think we're probably in line on the gluten and sugar story. So I want to remind everybody jjvirgin.com thyroidguides you're going to get and I'll also put links to Becky's Instagram and Facebook because she has great infographics on this. And I know you probably I'd never heard the the connection between thyroid and histamine before. So really interesting stuff. And if you're still struggling and frustrated, this is a great next rock to turn over. So that guide will start helping you get going along with all her social stuff because you put a lot of great info out there. So thank you for that and thank you for today. It was awesome. Super appreciated.

Yeah, thanks for having me.

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