Fast Tract Digestion with Dr. Norm Robillard

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Welcome to the JJ Virgin Lifestyle show with celebrity nutrition expert, Fitness hall of Famer and four time New York Times best selling author JJ Virginia. JJ is a warrior mom whose knowledge and expertise have helped change hundreds of thousands of lives. With over 3.5 million podcast downloads and appearances on Dr. Phil, Dr. Oz, the Today Show, Rachael Ray, Larry King Love Whoa, whoa, whoa.

This show is about you, not about me. I want to help you find practical, real world ways to dial in your health and mindset so you can finally lose that weight and feel strong and energized. Stop settling for less than your personal best. It's time to find out how to look and feel better than ever. And I'll be right here with you the whole way. Welcome to today's show. I have a treat today. You know how much I love everything gi and today we are going to be talking kind of like talking about some things that are always huge blog posts when we talk about them. We're going to talk about acid reflux, what's really behind it. We're going to get into SIBO symptoms, what it looks like, how to test for it, what you should do about.

It.

And some different ideas about fiber. Might even have a little debate back and forth on fiber. So it's an it interesting day here on the show with a super interesting guest. His name is Dr. Norm Robille. He instructed me on that because you know the Californian ones say norm Robillard. It's Dr. Norm and he's founder of the Digestive Health Institute and he's a microbiologist and he is going to tell you the coolest story about how he came to propose a new theory for the underlying cause of acid reflux. He now has his drug and antibiotic free fast track diet approach for SIBO related conditions. He's really fascinating with some of the different ways that he looks at things. And in the show notes we will give you the information on his Fast Track Diet mobile app. You are going to have access to his fast Track diet. He is super cool. And you know, we make the best cheat sheets. So we will have incredible cheat sheet and all of those resources available to you@jj virgin.com Norm welcome to the show, Dr. Norm. Let's see if I can do this right. Robillard.

Ah, that's correct. Thanks for having me, jj.

I've been practicing this because I wanted to say Robillard. Anyway, I am so glad you're here with me today. Welcome.

Thank you very much. Glad to be here.

So I'm not going to say your last name again. That was it. But I'm glad my practicing worked. So I love to get started, Norm, with how the heck you got into this. And I love GI stuff. So I'm really excited about everything we're talking about today. But let's just talk about how you got into what you are doing now, especially the field of acid reflux. All that. So what happened?

Sure. And you know, I've been in this area now of study, functional GI disorders, IBS, SIBO, GERD, reflux for over 10 years now. But I used to be a research microbiologist in the biotech industry. But during most of that time I was suffering with chronic acid reflux myself. I had no idea what caused it, but my own constant heartburn regurgitation symptoms, I mean, they were really interfering with my work, my sleep, I mean, I was miserable. And the medicines my own industry had, proton pump inhibitors and so forth, weren't helping at all. But over 10 years ago, I just happened to go on a low carbohydrate diet to lose some weight. But before I lost any weight, my reflux symptoms went away. And that made me really curious. And other people online were saying the same thing, you know, cut my carbs, my reflux is better. So I really wanted to know why, if reducing carbohydrates stopped heartburn, did that mean that carbohydrates somehow caused heartburn? And it was very different. You know, as I started to research this a little bit, it was very different from the theory that had stood for 60 years that acid reflux is caused by these group of muscles called the lower esophageal sphincter or les, on top of the stomach becoming weakened or relaxed. That's what allows reflux to occur according to this theory. 60 years, nobody challenged it. But all of a sudden I had this dilemma. That theory didn't make any sense in terms of why would stopping carbs help heartburn? And so I started reading about digestion wasn't my field. But I wanted to understand how each of these food groups, fats, proteins and carbohydrates, were digested to see I could learn anything. You know, I read all about the digestive process, the chewing, the salivary amylase, you know, for starch, the stomach acid and pepsin for proteins, lipases for fats. I was reading all about digestion. But when I got to the small intestine, the food, as soon as it leaves our stomach, enters the duodenum, the first part of the small intestine. A light bulb went off in my head, and it involved gut bacteria. Because as a microbiologist, I had grown and studied a wide variety of bacteria for years in grad school and also when I was a postdoc doctoral fellow at Tufts University. I was specifically studying gut bacteria. And even though my focus was on genetics, we needed to grow lots of bacteria to work with. And I recall two important traits of these bacteria. They get the bulk of their energy from carbohydrates, and most of them produce a lot of gas. And right then, it was that fast. Boom. This new theory hit me, basically that consuming more carbohydrates than our bodies can digest and absorb results in some level of malabsorption of these excess carbohydrates into the intestines. And gas producing bacteria normally present in the intestines overgrow, feeding on all of these carbohydrates. They produce a lot of this intestinal gas, which creates pressure in the intestines, which translates into the stomach and literally drives acid reflux, like dropping a Mentos candy into a bottle of Coke. So the theory was that simple. But there is a tremendous amount of evidence in favor for this theory over this antiquated idea about, you know, relaxation of the lower esophageal sphincter. So I was so amazed by that. I wrote one quick book. I was still working in biotech. I just wrote it late at night just to get the theory out there. That was in 2005. 06. But since then, I realized that there's a similar situation occurring with irritable bowel syndrome, ibs, and a whole variety of functional gastrointestinal disorders involving imbalances in these gut bacteria. Things like dysbiosis, that's the imbalanced growth of intestinal bacteria, and this thing called sibo, small intestinal bacterial overgrowth. So that's how I get into it. Boom. With a new theory. And this is 10 years later, written three books and we have a mobile, mobile app on this.

Yeah, you're on the front line of, like, the most coolest, exciting stuff, like sibo and the whole gut bacteria, everything is just super exciting.

It's wicked fun.

Yes. We love it. We love it over here. Threw Sibo out there. So we've talked a lot about Sibo on the show, but I'd love to get your take on just what it is and also how someone. You know, this is one of those challenges I'll never forget, Norm. It was like 20 years ago, and everyone thought they had Candida. It became like that, you know, the disease of the moment. Disease de jure. I'm concerned sibo might become the same.

Yeah, well, it's interesting. There are some new theories challenging sibo, too. But let's talk about sibo for a moment. You know, in a little bit of a primer. I mean, most of our gut microbes normally reside in the large intestine, not the small intestine. And that's where they turn fiber and other complex carbs into fats. You know, you've heard of butyrate and lactate, acetate. Well, those fats, they are fats, and they nourish us. And so during our evolution, you know, throughout our evolution, this ability to have these bacteria processing carbohydrates that we don't digest, fibers, and us getting calories from that, I mean, it's contributed to our survival. And that's why, like all animals on the planet, we've evolved with these bacteria in our gut. Of course, they do a lot of other really cool great things, but that's probably the most important one, helping us get more calories from these. These, you know, from vegetative matter. So here's where the problem comes in, though. You know, in the small intestine, there should be almost no bacteria in the early part of the small intestine, because that there's a lot of critical machinery there. Villi and microvilli, hairs on top of hairs, you know, for all the surface area. And at the tips of these microvilli, we produce disaccharidease enzymes like sucrase and maltase and lactase. But when bacteria get up in there and some of these bacteria, they're migrating from the large intestine and they're overgrowing. In the small intestine, they produce things like protease. People talk about the toxins they produce, and, yes, they produce those too. But the proteases, I think, are really important because these bacteria, they're also trying to break down protein for their own nitrogen needs. And when they Break, they're out. Send these enzyme out to look and break down proteins. Some of those proteins are these enzymes. And so they can damage these villi and microvilli and damage these enzymes. And then guess what happens? More malabsorption. We're even less able to absorb carbohydrates. More of the carbohydrates flood the small intestine. More bacteria grow, more proteases. It's this vicious cycle, a term that was coined by Elaine Gottschall, who wrote Breaking the Vicious cycle in the 90s. So it's a fascinating story, and that's basically what's happening. And so we could talk just briefly about the symptoms of sibo, because those overlap with these functional GI disorders. Right? People are familiar with abdominal pain and cramps, even diarrhea and constipation, gas and bloating, acid reflux. My own theory is adding that to the list. Flatulence, nausea, dehydration, fatigue. You know, those should be familiar to people. But longer term, if the SIBO goes unchecked, you know, there can be more severe symptoms, especially in the elderly, weight loss. Actually, in the very young, they can have failure to thrive. They're not growing according to the growth charts. You can get steatorrhea, which is the body's failure to digest fats properly because these bacteria can also deconjugate the bile acids. You can get anemia, bleeding, bruising, all kinds of different things, and even leaky gut syndrome. Right. So that's an increase in intestinal permeability. And guess what? That brings you into autoimmune reactions. So that's what's going on. So what causes this? Right. That's another good question. And, you know, many of these have been studied, and some are very new. It's an active area of research. We know about motility problems, how well food moves through the intestines. Things get slowed down too much, that can promote sibo. But recent research actually identified low eleocecal valve pressure, that valve between small intestine and large. That should prevent these bacteria from coming back. So if that valve pressure is low, bacteria can more easily get back into the small intestine. You've heard of low stomach acid. That's a big one on the Internet. But that can play a problem, create a problem that leads to sibo, immune deficiencies, whether it's drugs or HIV infection or celiac or Crohn's. Another big one is antibiotic use and even other drugs. Nonsteroidal anti inflammatories, PPIs. You know that list you could keep adding to that. Preservatives, anti nutrients, things that disrupt the microbiota. GI Infections is now a new IBS check test out to see if some pathogens cause the problem. And of course, pancreas and liver problems are big on the list. But one of the big ones, I think, that escapes most people's radar is simply carbohydrate malabsorption and intolerance to carbohydrates. You know, as we get older, our digestive machinery may not work quite as well as it did when we were 18, when we could eat anything. And too many carbohydrates can be a problem.

So how would someone know if they had it? And how would someone know if they had, you know, issues with absorbing carbohydrates?

Sure. Well, first of all, if you have the types of symptoms I just described, chances are you do either have SIBO or you have some kind of maybe excess fermentation even in the early part of your large bowel. We know that can be a problem too, with people that have IBS or an imbalance in microbes, but just the symptoms, I think for most people that's enough to know, you know, what? I have the symptoms of carbohydrate intolerance and bacterial overgrowth, and I better go on a diet like the fast track diet that limits these types of carbs that drive those reactions. But some people, of course, you know, some people want to know the details. And so back in the day, they used to literally sample the small intestine through endoscopy. They take an aspirate, and they would try to grow bacteria in the laboratory. That method is very invasive, and actually it's not very. A very good method anyway, because most intestinal bacteria don't grow in culture. And that's why they use molecular techniques these days. So they should switch over to those. But it's invasive. Those having an endoscopy is not without risk. The common method used now is breath testing. So they do something called lactulose, hydrogen, methane breath testing. And to do that is you're trying to look for two gases, hydrogen and methane, produced in the intestines. And the reason you can find these by breath testing is because a certain amount of the gas produced in your intestines will be absorbed into your bloodstream and exhaled when you breathe out. And so when you breathe into the tubes, those gases, if they're in your intestines, will show up in your breath. That's what breath testing is all about and what they do is they have you breathe into one tube and put a cap on it, put it back in the box, and then you drink a sugar solution. And they use, most commonly use lactulose, which is like lactose, but it's not digestible at all by anybody, by humans. So it stays in your intestines. And if you have a lot of bacteria there, they will ferment that lactulose and they'll produce a lot of hydrogen. And that will show up in these tubes over time. So every 15 to 20 minutes, you blow in a new tube after drinking the sugar solution. And so over time, they can see like a plot and look, increasing hydrogen before 90 minutes. That's characteristic of SIBO. Now, what about methane? Methane is a gas produced not by bacteria, but rather these archaea, organisms that live in our intestines. And, and they produce this methane by consuming hydrogen. So the bacteria make the hydrogen from fermenting carbs. The archaea take the hydrogen and produce methane. And that methane will also show up in a breath test, although it may not necessarily be produced in the small intestine. A lot of people getting this test that have high methane levels will have high methane even in the zero time point before they drank the sugar solution. So a lot of people with methane just have high methane. These things are always just cranking out methane even after a fast for the evening, in the morning, you're still making methane, but here's why it's important. Hydrogen gas, both of these gases can lead to bloating and reflux, and all of these gas symptoms. But there's two other properties of these gases. Hydrogen tends to promote diarrhea or soft stools, whereas methane is more indicative of constipation. So people with IBS, c, constipation predominant, IBS almost always produce a lot of methane, and people with ibs, diarrhea predominant, often produce a lot of hydrogen. So I think that's where the testing can be be helpful.

So let's talk a little bit. I know we're up against the clock and you're going to be giving everybody. We always have great, great gifts from our guests and everyone today you're going to be getting the fast track diet. So that will be coming to you through our link. We're going to do the link@jjvirgin.com forward slash norm. I'm skipping the last name, but one of the things that I just have to bring up here is fiber, because one of the things that you limit on the fast track diet is fiber. So let's dig in a little bit about fiber. It seems like a double edged sword here.

Yes, that was well put actually. And you know, by the way, even though we differ a little bit on some of our viewpoints of fiber, I read your blog on fiber and the very last sentence in your blog I couldn't agree with more. So maybe we can at least.

What did I say?

You said, and I made a note somewhere. Yeah. You said, remember to increase your fiber intake gradually to avoid intestinal distress.

I'm thinking as I listen to you, that actually for a lot of people, because you know, one of the ways that I can tell if someone has some issues with their gut microbiome is what happens when they take pre and probiotics and fiber would fit right in there is if these are creating a lot of distress. Sounds like you need to back off.

Right? You know, I think a good rule of thumb is when you're having symptoms, back off. If you're not having symptoms, go for it.

Exactly. So that's, that is an interesting one because with anything that we have in our diet, there's there some of the healthiest foods can create symptoms for various reasons. So let's talk about fiber and what you recommend here and why it's limited on the.

Sure. So you know, what is fiber? Fiber are chains of carbohydrate molecules all strung together, some of which are quite complex. There's over 10 different types of fiber in our diet and they vary in complexity and which is relevant to this discussion. They vary in their fermentability, how easy it is for bacteria to break those down. And sometimes that breaking down of these fibers is a collaborative effort between many, many different types of strains. They work together because these things are so complex. So where do they come from? All plants contain fiber, but some foods, and let's list these in order. Of the ones that have the most fiber, some have more fiber. So starting with the most legumes, grains, nuts, seeds, something like avocado fruits and berries. So that was kind of from high fiber to low fiber. Right. And we know humans can't digest fiber. We depend on bacteria to do this. We know we get a survival advantage. Right. If times are lean and we have to eat fibrous foods to survive. The these bacteria give us a survival advantage. But in this modern age, seven elevens on every corner and we have so much food available, you know, that like a lot of food types, I think we overdo it. We keep thinking we need more of things. But I think for People with these GI disorders, they're having too much of a good thing. You know, when I first was writing the Fast Track digestion books, Heartburn and ibs, there's a chapter on these hard to digest carbohydrates. One of those groups is fiber. And I had a dilemma because I always thought fiber was healthy. That's how I was raised, right? I used to read these reports. It reduces constipation, it helps with weight loss, it's better cardio health and might even prevent colon cancer. So I had to re examine these claims because was fiber a superfood or was it something that could be making us sick if we were prone to these conditions, like sibo? Luckily, at the time I was writing this, I happened to be in touch with Gary Taubes, right? He's the author of Good Calories, Bad Calories, and he just wrote a new book, the Case Against Sugar. But he's also an expert in the limitations of observational studies. And he actually wrote a very good piece in the New York Times on this subject. And so when I was looking at these reports, you know, I found some of these older reports on the benefits based on these older observational studies. And Gary was the first to point out to me that he said, you know, these studies that cannot prove con causation. And there's a number of reasons about that. And you should read, you know, have your readers look at that New York Times piece for all the details. So, and then the other thing was, as I looked at a lot of these studies, some of the newer and larger studies were debunk, debunking the claims made in the earliest studies. And I capture those in the references in an article on Digestive HealthInstitute.org, the article is called the Dark side of Fiber. I capture those articles and basically debunk a lot of these ideas that fiber is going to prevent colon cancer. It doesn't. So I look at each one of those and look at the studies. Another good one is constipation. This is a study that came out in 2012 that showed that actually reducing or eliminating fiber, not increasing it, was effective in relieving constipation. Of course, we need to study these things even more and look at different types of studies. But all I'm saying is that it's not cut and dry. Another study in 2005 out of the UK showed that eliminating fiber was just as effective for people with IBS and as the powerful antibiotic metronidazole. So there are certainly enough Counterexamples to really make us reexamine this. But, you know, I would say in a nutshell, if you're healthy and have no trouble with more fiber in your diet, that's fine. But if you have ibs, reflux, bloating, diarrhea, all of these functional GI issues, you might really want to watch how much fiber you consume because it could make your symptoms worse. In fact, that's, you know, it's one of the types of carbs we limit in the fast track diet approach in the books and the mobile app. But there's a quote from a textbook, the textbook of primary and acute care medicine on the chapter on intestinal gases that exactly supports the fast track diet approach. And it tells you to limit intestinal gas. You should restrict lactose, fructose resistant starch fibers and sugar alcohols. And that is the exact 5 carbohydrates that we focus on in the fast track diet. So, you know, I'm not alone here. Even though I know this, you know, there's, there's a little bit of a debate about fiber and resistant starch. The other ones, I think you'd agree with me on, you know, lactose. I know in your book you don't, you don't like lactose, you know, fructose.

I don't. Yeah, I tend to go. And I, I think that the paleo community and the primal community go, but wait a minute, I can already hear like Lauren Cardain. But wait a minute. You know, we used to get a lot higher fiber dose in our diet. And the big takeaway that it seems like to me, because, you know, again, we always want to unprocess our diet, eat as clean as possible. We're all going to agree on that. But one of the big takeaways is that if you've got GI issues, you don't want to go throwing a bunch of fiber on top of it right now because it's probably going to make things worse, not better, that you need to start healing and balancing your gut microbiome. And kind of one of the tests is, how do you feel when you eat something? Well put, which is one that I've always been keen on, is how do you feel when you eat that? I think that we, the better we can get at connecting the dots between what we're eating and how we feel, the better off we'll be. And that then you can start to look at this food as information. You go, oh, okay, you know, what if I have problems when I eat fiber, perhaps I have an issue with my gut microbiome. I might want to dig deeper and look at something like sibo. So I look at all these things as great information that we need to then, you know, act upon.

So.

Yeah, well, well, I want to remind everybody you've got.

Thank you.

You've got your, your Fast Track Diet available for everybody. We're going to put that@jjvirgin.com forward slash norm. And I know we're a little over time, but you want to tell everybody really quick what, what they can get with the Fast Track Diet.

Sure. Well, the Fast Track Diet. So this, this free ebook you mentioned is kind of a primer on the diet. It's pretty extensive in terms of exactly how it works and so forth. So it's, it's not the full book, but it's about 18 pages or so, I think of, you know, everything you want to know about the diet. So. Yeah. So what is the Fast Track Diet? I mean, it's. There's three elements in the diet, so I mentioned it limits these five types of carbohydrates and it does it quantitatively using this FP calculation that stands for fermentation potential, which is a calculation based on the glycemic index in nutritional facts. The same way the glycemic index tells you how quickly carbohydrates go into your bloodstream. I manipulated the equation to tell you how many of these carbohydrates are staying behind in your intestines. So for any food, you can calculate this. For instance, in the, in the Fast Track Diet mobile app, it lists 1800 different foods in the app and all these tables. And as voice recognition, you can be in the store and just say brussels sprouts. It will bring them up and you can see how many points they are. So that's important. So, and there's a calculator and so forth in there. For any kind of wacky food you have that I didn't think of, you can do the calculation. That's. The first element is the FP points in the diet. The second element is a guide to identify and address a variety of potential underlying contributing causes. And we talked a little bit about those. And so ruling those in or out is really important. And there's a chapter on that. And in my consultation program, I focus on that heavily. The third element, also really important. And unfortunately, it's just almost nobody really focuses on this area and that is employing behaviors and practices along with specific dietary supplements to ensure optimal digestion and minimize malabsorption. So Something as simple as eating slowly and chewing well, makes a lot of sense because it gives the amylase enzyme in your saliva more time to digest starches. Simple things.

That is, that is the biggest. You know, they did this study on slow and fast chewers and Those who chewed 40 or more times per bite. Now I'm thinking, well, of course they lost weight that like it took them all day to eat a meal, you know, but, you know, I'm being facetious.

I would love to, to read that. If you, if you can send me something that's fascinating.

Yeah, I've got a fine for it. When I read that, I'm like, oh, my gosh. Like, just as simple as taking time to chew. You know, back when I was a personal trainer, I would run from house to house to house, and I like mastered the ability to eat like a snake, you know, to just almost not something you'd want to master. So these simple things, and I know these are all in the ebook that everyone will be able to download, are such, it's like, it's such crazy strategies that can make such a massive difference just for when you eat.

So don't refrigerate your starches after you cook them because refrigeration increases resistant starch. So it's like a fiber. So if you eat, if you're having, if you're not having symptoms, do what you want. If you're having these symptoms, eat your rice fresh because there's a lot less resistant starch. And choose jasmine something like jasmine rice or sushi rice over basmati or Uncle Ben's because those have more of a more resistant type of starch. So, yeah, simple things.

All right, well, thank you so much for that and thank you for joining me today. Jumping on and just you've got some really interesting different information. I always love bringing that to everybody. So again, I'm going to remind everyone grab that ebook. And you have a lot of resources. I've been checking them all out@jjvirgin.com forward slash norm. So thank you are welcome. Now, after the break, I'll be answering a listener's questions. So stay with me.

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Welcome back. This is the time where I answer a listener's question. Now we grab these questions off of our social media accounts. Facebook @jj virgin, official Instagram @jj virgin. And we're always looking for questions that are super relevant to the show show at hand. And today's question comes from Maria in Stanford and she writes, jj, I'm just so constipated, Chronically constipated. What are some tips that I can do? I hate this feeling. Yeah, that is one rotten feeling. So here's a little checklist of things you want to think about if constipation is an issue for you. The first one that you have to always clear up the pink elephant in the room and that is thyroid function because one of the symptoms of low thyroid function is constipation. So that's one. Especially if this has changed for you. I'm going to tell you to look at your thyroid function and remember this is not looking at normal. This is looking at optimal, which is very different. So you want to look at your TSH and free T3 and T4 and ideally a TSH there is 0.5 to 1. I started getting symptoms as soon as my TSH went over 2. So just be aware of that and work with your favorite local or not local. Even now we can do everything by Skype. Functional medicine doc. Next up, check out your diet and make sure that if you did just do a big diet shift, you heard Norm talk about this. Like the last thing you want to do is go from low fiber to high fiber overnight. That if you are increasing your fiber in your diet. And I'm still a fan of fiber, I must say, but I do believe 100% you want to do this over time, not overnight. If you've been eating the typical low fiber diet, bring it up gradually. And I prefer fiber from things like avocados, nuts and seeds, non starchy vegetables. So you increase it over time along with a lot of water in between meals. And if you start to feel gassy, back it down and back it down. You've upped your fiber too fast or you might be feeding the bacteria in your gut and that is creating all that gas that you and bloating and all of that. So increase fiber over time, not overnight. That's the next one. Next one after that, microbiome balance. I've got a product that's got both probiotics and something called bacteria phages that can act like the fertilizer for your gut microbiome to help everything in there flourish that you want flourished. And that can also help here as well. And then vitamin C and magnesium and the way that you use these magnesium, especially Epsom salts bath transdermal, that's magnesium cream and magnesium supplements can help tremendously. And you basically magnesium and vitamin C, take them up your dose again. What I do is have you take magnesium and vitamin C before bed and it may be that you take 2 grams of vitamin C and 1,000 milligrams of magnesium, see how you feel in the morning. Everything moves well. You're good. If it moves too well, back it down. If it doesn't move, bring it up a little bit more. And so that's how you titrate it up to right where you need. But so many of us are magnesium deficient. And of course vitamin C gets blown out by stress. It's the number one vitamin used by the adrenal glands. So that can make a big issue there too. So those are all the things that can help. And again, see how you feel. Remember, one of the key concepts that came up during this interview today was that you want to make sure that you're connecting dots between what you're eating and how you feel. And if you start to eat more fiber and you start to feel rotten, back it down, drink more water, improve your gut and then see about taking it up again. Alrighty. Thank you so much for that question and I now going into the big thank you part of the show and that's thanking you for leaving a review on itunes. If you've loved what you've heard today and on the other shows, here's a couple big asks for you. Number one, share it with anybody else you know who can benefit from science based actionable information. Number two, leave a review. It helps a bunch. Social proof is so key and critical. So if you're loving what you're hearing, leave a review. I'm going to highlight the review of the week. We do this each week and this one is from Cordelia M. From Canada and she gave us five stars and said love this podcast. As a holistic nutritionist, business owner and woman, I absolutely love the approach JJ has with their podcasts. Easily digestible, relatable and fun. The way that health should be approached, in my opinion, makes my drives more awesome. Thank you so much. So super appreciate the whole team appreciates every review we get and I know that helps us get the word out to other people. Because this, my friends, this podcast is a labor of love for us, but I totally dig it and I'm always so impressed by the cool guests that we find on the show. So I'm glad that you're loving it too and make it an awesome week. Bye Bye.

Hello listeners. This is Anne Bogle, author, blogger and creator of the podcast what Should I Read next? Since 2016, I've been helping readers bring more joy and delight into their reading lives. Every week I tag all things books and reading with a guest and guide them in discovering their next read. They share three books they love, one book they don't, and what they've been reading lately, and I recommend three titles they may enjoy reading next. Guests have said our conversations are like therapy, troubleshooting issues that have plagued their reading lives for years and possibly the rest of their lives as well. And of course, recommending books that meet the moment. Whether they are looking for deep introspection to spur or encourage a life change or a froth page turner to help them escape the stresses of work, school, everything, you'll learn something about yourself as a reader and you'll definitely walk away confident to choose your next read with a whole list of new books and authors to try. So join us each Tuesday for what Should I Read Next? Subscribe now wherever you're listening to this podcast and Visit our website whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com to find out more.