Fight Dandruff From the Inside Out with Jennifer Fugo

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Hey it's JJ and welcome to Ask the Health Expert. But this isn't just any old Ask the Health Expert Expert session. This is your bonus session. Yes, it's the weekend and because it's the weekend, we are going to take some time with an amazing expert. So be on the lookout for these Saturday Ask the Health Expert bonus sessions where we're going to go deep into an amazing subject with an incredible expert to give you actionable items that you can put into your life. Hey, it's J.J. and we are tackling a subject I have never talked about on this show before but comes up periodically in social media, people asking about it. So you know what, it's time and I'm talking about dandruff. I'm going to be talking about dandruff with my buddy Jennifer Fugo. Now she's been on the show before and we will be sure to link to her last show where we talked about eczema. She started out as an expert in gluten and she created a gluten free school and then she started to really dig into skin conditions because she started to see first of all what pulling out gluten did in terms of helping with these skin conditions. Then with her own battle with eczema, she started to look at how she could go deeper. Similar story with dandruff. I'll let her tell you about this herself. You'll hear it next on the show. But she is really tackling things that we've never really focused on before and getting to the root cause of why they happen so they can finally beat their chronic skin rash conditions. She's an integrative clinical nutritionist. She's the director of her virtual private practice and works with clients, by the way, all over the world. And she's the host of the Healthy Skin show podcast and again, we've had her on before. You will be able to link to that episode and get the awesome download. She has her skin rash root cause testing E guide and@jjvirgin.com dandruff now, before we dive into this episode, I want to do a shout out to Ashley Titus who put up this podcast review. She said thank you JJ five stars. JJ hosts an incredible podcast. Her episodes are the perfect link, just right for a commute to work. I've learned so much in the car since subscribing and tuning into her show. I highly recommend all of her episodes. Thank you JJ for your sharing your love of health and nutrition with us. Thank you Ashley. Love to do a shout out for you too. So if you haven't done it yet, pop on over, leave a review, and if there's something you'd love to hear more about, please let me know that too. I like I build these shows based on what you're looking for. All right, I'm going to share a favorite with you and then we'll be diving into this week's podcast. Stay with me.

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Jennifer Figo, welcome back to the show. I am super excited to be talking to you and talking to you about a subject that we've never talked about before.

Well, thank you so much for having me. And I'm glad to talk about it because I know that it affects a lot of men and women, but it also can be, aside from uncomfortable, feeling uncomfortable and looking not your best. It can really disrupt your ability to wear certain clothes, specifically colors of clothes, because flakes do not. They don't make your wardrobe and your appearance exude a sense of confidence, that's for sure. So I'm happy to talk about it very.

So I will tell everybody prior to us going live. I said, all right, Jennifer, so can I ask you, like, how you got so interested in dandruff or is that like a taboo subject? So since we are talking about dandruff, I've never talked about it before on the show and yes, it has come up on my lives. People going, what do I do about this? I'm like, I. I don't know. So I was really excited. You the queen of combating and dealing with skin rashes at the root cause to take this one on. So let's talk about how you got into it, how you got into skin rashes in general, this specifically, and then we'll talk about what the heck to do about it.

The general reason that I got into skin rash issues is simply because I had dyseedritic eczema on my hands. And I was able to resolve that over the course of about a year using functional nutrition principles to be able to identify the reasons why I had the rashes and then address those specific areas. But at the same time. So my husband has had dandruff for a very long time, pretty much. Goodness. We started dating in 2005. So he had dandruff before that and it had gotten worse and worse over the years. So it was at the front of his scalp, in his beard, in his eyebrows and in his mouth.

Wow. Was he like, was he bugged by.

It or was he kind of oblivious or what's the deal?

It bugged him because it would be so itchy and then things would burn where you could clearly see the area of the skin looked almost like it was burned by something because of how red it was. And then he'd have these ginormous flakes that would fall out of his beard, off the eyebrows, off the front of the scalp, onto his clothes. So he couldn't wear navy, gray, black, any of the dark colors. All of a sudden, it's like you look like a snow globe. And he was really embarrassed by it, but didn't know what else to do. So we constantly used head and should shoulders as a way to somewhat manage it. But it wasn't foolproof by any means.

Well, what. I mean, what causes this?

Basically, and this is not anything that's entirely shocking. It really has to do with a fungal organism that lives on your skin in the more oily regions. It's called Malassezia, and it is a normal commensal organism. So it's supposed to be there. And I think people get freaked out by the idea that fungus is on their skin, but it's not a big deal. It's not something that necessarily will cause a problem. And I'll ask, I just want to share, too, that it can affect your face, both sides of the nose, as I said. Yes, the eyebrows, the ears, your eyelids, and even your chest. And like I said, for men, it can really affect the face and the area where the beard and the mustache is, as I did my husband. And so basically, while we focus on this little fungal organism that's hanging out in these areas, and that's what a lot of the shampoos and products are geared around, is managing that population. We really miss. We should be asking a different question. It's like, well, why are we experiencing this issue? Because if that type of fungus should be there already, then why is it causing all of these issues with the skin flaking apart, redness, itching, et cetera?

Yes, why is it, Jennifer, now that you ask, it's definitely not a head and shoulders deficiency, is it?

No, no, it's not. And in fact, I just want to point out that for some people, they're actually using products that, yes, it has, you know, natural chemicals like salicylic acid and selenium sulfide in them, but some use coal tar. So people are putting coal tar products on their skin, which I don't know about you, but I'm not really comfortable putting coal tar on my skin. And so this can happen as a result of a number of different reasons. At least this is what Western medicine believes. It's like seasonal changes, hormonal changes, stress detergents, chemicals that are in your body care products and shampoos. And actually, what's most surprising to me is some medications can actually trigger and exacerbate psoriasis, things like interferon and lithium for those who may have some issues with mood disorders. And the real reason that this happens is that there's actually an imbalance that starts in the gut, of all places. It seems like everything pretty much starts in the gut. And so what's most interesting, and I'm saying this from a more clinical perspective with my experience, is that oftentimes these folks that I've worked with, including my husband, have too much Candida living in their gut. And one theory that I've had the opportunity to explore is that your immune system, due to leaky gut, familiarizes itself with these fungal organisms that are inside the gut region. Right. So we have this permeability happening, and the immune system really shouldn't be interacting with this amount of Candida. And as a result, it sort of goes haywire and starts. Starts to seek it out in other areas. And so one of the areas that it will go after is these fungal organisms living on the surface of the skin. And so it's actually almost instead of us thinking that it's the Malassezia that's causing the issue, it's actually your immune system that is attacking the yeast, causing the redness and the flaking and whatnot. So it is really an inside out.

Oh, my gosh. And we are so going around about this the wrong way then. Like, this is ridiculous. And I have never heard anyone talk about it. Well, first of all, people just don't talk about it. You see, like, TV commercials and then head and shoulders or something like that, but never talked about this way, which is why obviously those things don't ever. I mean, it's great for the shampoos because you can never not use them. Like, it seems like you need them forever, you know, right now. Because it didn't fix anything.

Exactly. And it treats a symptom. It doesn't actually stop whatever is driving the symptom underneath. And with Candida, you know, Candida should be in the gut. I do want to be clear about that, because I think sometimes we get fixated on this idea of, like, ugh, I want no fungus in or on me. That's gross and disgusting. Candida is also a commensal organism in the gut. It just depends on the amount. That's.

Well, explain what you mean by a commensal organism in the gut.

That's a good question. There are, I like to call them bugs. There's different type of bugs that live in these microbes, microbiomes or These community of bacteria, fungal organisms, there may be even on the skin, for example, be mites that should naturally live there. I know it sounds awful, but that's actually the case. And they have this little ecosystem that helps us sustain a level of health in that particular area. And they are, by the way, connected. So the gut microbiome does communicate with the skin microbiome, and there are other microbiomes like in your eye, in your bladder. So you shouldn't think that it's just this one spot. But one of the big issues that I found with yeast is that there are also a lot of toxic byproducts that the yeast or Candida release into your gut, and that can also increase the burden by which your liver has to deal with these chemicals that it's being exposed to. And I would also share too, if people have find that they have an increased risk of kidney stones, so they're crazy with their diet about, like, avoiding those oxalate rich foods, things like strawberries or spinach, because, like, oh, I don't want kidney stones. Chocolate's another good one. That's always a red flag to me to say, ooh, maybe we need to look for Candida. So a lot of times there's different things that we don't talk a lot about, but can be signs of this underlying issue that there's just too much yeast.

Got it. So there's these signs of this. And again, I think it's really important because I remember 25 years ago, like, Candida was the, like, disease du jour, and like, everybody had Candida overgrowth, and it was like, it was absolutely ridiculous, you know, and so I think it's great to. It's like anything else, you need a balance. But when this is out of balance, what the heck do you do?

One thing that I would say, and I think I've gotten this from a lot of my, my physician mentors as I've gone on my journey of becoming a clinical nutritionist, like Dr. Kara Fitzgerald and Dr. Joe Carnahan, is that you really need to test. It's best not to guess. I know a lot of people think, like, they could do the spit test. They read about that online. I don't find that that's particularly helpful. And frankly, it's confusing. So one of the easiest ways to figure this out of how much Candida you have in your system is actually using a functional lab that tests for organic acids that are in the urine. So it's a ur and test really easy. You can typically do them at Home. And we're looking for a very specific substance called D. Arabonitol, and that is a very specific byproduct of Candida albicons. There are other things to test for, but I think that's one of the main ones. And then from there, I know that people are thinking, okay, I have Candida, or maybe I have Candida, I should do an anti candida diet. I'm not a big fan of those. I was taught to recommend them to clients when they had too much Candida. But to be honest with you, people don't actually get better. It manages their symptoms, but as soon as they start eating sugar or anything else, all the problems come back. And since your system, your immune system is sensitized to the yeast, the idea is that you really need to remove any additional yeast that's coming into the system. So it means that I know people love ferments, but this is the time and the place to not do ferments or pickled foods. So you would have to really reduce or remove, like your sauerkrauts, kimchis, kombuchas, coconut aminos and vinegars. You could substitute, by the way, if you love having salads, you could always substitute your vinegar with lemon, fresh lemon juice. That's always a great option. And really healthy and fresh. You'd have to reduce or remove all alcoholic beverages, condiments that have vinegar in them, all forms of yeast, including nutritional yeast. I know a lot of my vegan folks love nutritional, nutritional yeast, but that is a yeast as well. So that would need to be removed. Removed along with, like, refined sugars and flours. And I would also add gluten in there simply because gluten increases gut permeability. And the last thing you want is to have more interaction with what's going on in your gut. So gluten is definitely something that's got to go as well.

Yeah. I haven't really seen anyone that eats gluten and feels better. No, I mean, it just. And I know you started in this world, in the world of gluten and teaching how to live gluten free. So, you know, it's just kind of one of those things, like people pull out gluten and it can help them feel better, but in this situation, that is only going to be one step in the process. So pulling out those things. And I would think maybe one of the signs that this could be an issue, although I really feel this is one where you want to look. And we'll put this in the show notes. Jjvirgin.com dandruff how's that for show notes? We'll put in the name of that darabenitol test so that you know how to get that. But I would think that if you are doing nutritional yeast or if you do fermented foods and you start to get worse, could that be a sign?

Absolutely. Or you have flares, like, say you go out on a Friday night for girls night out, and you have some wine, and then you notice the next day that your scalp is even worse right there. That's a pretty good correlation with the fact that a lot of times we think like, oh, it was the sulfites, it was everything else, because we don't.

Want to think it was the actual. Right. That's very sad, Jennifer.

I know, I know. But it's not forever. That's why I'm not poo pooing. The anti Candida diet. I do think it has a time and a place, but it's not going to fully solve the problem. And that's where you really need to look toward antimicrobials and doing some sort of gut protocol to really clean up the gut instead of just leaning really hard on food, hoping that it's going to do the trick and you're going to just starve everything out of your gut, which isn't likely.

So that's not enough. So let's talk about nutrients that can be helpful here.

I would say vitamin D, vitamin A, which, by the way, vitamin A can be found in liver if you like eating liver, which most people like myself do not.

It's that texture. Oh, my gosh. I, I, you know, I've only really ever had it. I went to, I was in London. I still remember this. I was 14. Okay. So I'm 14 in London, and I was with, you know, my friend and her parents, and I was going to have a bite of her, like, it was like a liver and kidney pie. And she said she was going to give me a bite of, like, the crust, but she tricked me. So I was like, it was like, ew. And I've never, It's just the texture is disgusting.

So it's, yeah, it's not everybody's piece of pie, so to speak.

Yes, there you go. Ha ha. Yes.

I would also say vitamin E is another good option as well, magnesium. I would also make sure to increase protein intake. That way you're not leaning on carbs. So try to crowd out some of the starchy carbs that you like with more protein in your d Vitamin C is also really important because that tends to get depleted when you have too much candida in your system. Another really helpful mineral is zinc, which you can find in oysters, if you like that.

Here we go. Oysters and liver. Like, you've named two of the. Like to me, the yuckiest foods out there, and they're really good. But here is one thing. With liver, do, do please make sure you're getting, like, high quality, clean liver. If you're eating, gonna eat the liver, which we hope you would, but, you.

Know, correct, like, I'm not gonna eat either of those options. They're not my favorite food. So for me, it'd be more important to supplement with them. And then, last but not least, I always like to support your liver, especially when you're doing any sort of gut rebalancing, to not forget about your own detoxification system in your liver, because a lot of times that can become overwhelmed. So looking toward potential supports like glutathione and glycine, which is an amino acid, can also be helpful.

All right, we'll put all of that in the show notes because I'm sure you're like, first of all, most people are driving or hopefully at the gym going, oh, my gosh, so you want to be using those. But you also mentioned antimicrobials.

Absolutely. And it's funny, people will ask me all the time about antimicrobials, and in this particular case, I would say something that's a bit on the more antifungal side.

Okay.

Yeah, I don't like to do one ingredient formulas. So people go, I'll just use oil of oregano now I'll just use garlic. And I'm like, okay, but what happens if you have other type of fungal organisms aside from Candida albicons in your gut, which you can. So using a more broad spectrum where it has a number of different antifungals in it tends to be more effective. The same goes for just antimicrobials in general. It just helps more effectively. At least I found to address the microbiome as a whole, rather than just like, like, I'm just going to do.

This one thing and hopefully, what are some of the key ones that they'd want to look for? We'll put all of this again in the show notes. But some of the key things you'd want to look for in terms of an antifungal antimicrobial, I would say, as.

I said, combo product that's got a bunch of different things in it. I love oil of oregano. That's great. Berberine can also be helpful. Caprylic acid is this actually does come from. I believe it is coconut derived. I could be incorrect in that, but it may be. But that can also be helpful. And sometimes it's bound to calcium and magnesium. Grapefruit seed extract can be really great and olive leaf extract are great options.

All right, cool. Just so they know when they're looking at a formula, does it have some of the powerhouses in there that they should be looking for anything. Is there anything that would be. And I'll share with you. My son had cradle cap. I called it cradle crap at the time when he was a baby. And so I thought it would be awesome to use tea tree oil on his head and then have him drink it. Or no, I think I had him drink oil of oregano, not knowing how powerful it was and that, you know, the dropper full I put in his water. He was like, mom, you know, but are there any topical things that can be helpful here too?

Or.

And is it really more fixing the gut and doing everything internal where most of your.

You're going to get most of the bang for your buck by working on the inside. Although I have had some clients see improvements by doing apple cider vinegar washes in the shower. So you put it in a squeeze bottle and after you shampoo your hair, you squeeze the mixture, obviously leaning the head back because you don't want to get it on your face or in your eyes and then rinsing it off. And I swear, from at least what I've been told by every client that's done this, that your hair will not smell like apple cider vinegar.

Yeah. It's better than oil of oregano on.

Your head, you know?

Yes. Yes. Or like a tea tree oil.

Yes.

And you know, the other thing too is I know a lot of people like to look for antimicrobials to put on their skin. I'm not an essential oils expert. My understanding has been especially too and having talked extensively with Dr. Marisa Snyder, is like, you got to be really careful putting essential oils directly on the skin especially too, because as you scratch, the skin can already be incredibly irritated if not cracked open. And I'm not a big fan of putting coconut oil on the skin either because it further disrupts the microbiome as opposed to helping soothe and calm it. So you may want to look for other oils, if that's the case, that are a little bit less harsh, like jojoba oil for Example is close to the human sebum that's produced. So that may be like if your for your face might be a better option than putting something that really isn't well absorbed, like coconut oil.

Well, I love what you're doing because I feel like you're disrupting all of the way that we look at skin rashes with how you're doing this, which is, you know, it's not again, dandruff is not because we haven't been using our head and shoulders regularly. Right. It's like, what's really going on. It's a different way of looking at things that can actually, by getting to the root cause, solve the problem once and for all. So I just love how you're looking at this in all of the different areas that you're treating. And I know that you're giving everybody a skin rash root cause testing eguide. Tell us about what that is.

Well, there's a bunch of different tests that you can utilize, like things that are conventional medicine that you can get from your primary care doctor and sometimes are covered by your insurance, which is always great. And then there's also functional testing that can be really helpful in looking deeper and looking at the problem from a different perspective. And so combining those two gives us a really powerful puzzle piece, so to speak. We lay out all those pieces and then we say, okay, how do they fit together? Do we have nutritional deficiencies? Are you digesting your protein? Do you have. It may be Candida, but you may also have other gut infections. It's not always uncommon. So I don't want people to think it's just Candida. That typically is a main trigger. But sometimes there's other bugs in the gut that also need to be cleaned up and other issues that may need to be balanced. So. So we look at a person from a full perspective and say, okay, where do we need to go that's going to get us to the end goal most effectively and efficiently. And so that testing guide is really helpful because you can go to your doctor, your practitioner and say, hey, can we run these?

Perfect. That's fantastic. Because that's always the question. Or you'll run one test, but you really need to have a couple of them and you don't have enough information. But I would think even while you're, before you even get to the doctor, is there any reason not to just dive in and do some dietary shifts and add some nutrients because that might just solve the problem?

No, I don't think there's typically any problem the only one I would be careful of is just vitamin A simply because you don't want to take too much vitamin A. And I think that's one of the fat soluble vitamins where typically I find it to be low in clients. But you never know. You could be the one oddball person that has high vitamin A and taking more may exacerbate it. But vitamin A and vitamin D are commonly covered by insurance. And there is a justification because vitamin A is vital for your eyesight, for your thyroid as well as healthy skin formation. So those are reasons you could give your doctor.

Perfect. That's fantastic. All right. You can grab this again@jburgin.com dandruff there will be no dandruff on my watch. And thank you so much for coming back in and talking about this. I'm also going to love link to your other episode where we talked about eczema and your story with that and what you can do about it. And we also had another really cool what was the one we gave eczema soothing smoothies on that one. So yes, more goodness with Jennifer Abound. So you'll be able to get that too. And thank you so much for taking your time out with us today. So appreciate you.

Thank you for having me.

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Welcome back. So this is where I share some action steps and some top takeaways. And I think there's really one key concept here as a top takeaway from the show. And it is that if you're struggling with a skin condition, if you're struggling with dandruff, it's time to figure out what's really causing it. And you know, when you look at most of the treatments out there for these things, it's a band aid approach. It's like use this shampoo, put on this lotion. It's not what what's really going on, why do I have this challenge and what do we need to do to fix it? So the big action step is to make sure that you go to jjvirgin.com dandruff and grab Jennifer's guide because that's going to help you get there. And that guide again is the skin rash root cause testing e guide but then also start to connect the dots. You know, one of the big things that I do, both the Virgin diet and the Sugar Impact diet is help you connect the dots between what you're eating and how you feel. And so if you notice that again, just like what Jennifer was talking about, you know, you go out and drink alcohol and you feel worse the next day or you have some nutrition, additional yeast and it makes you feel rotten, then start to question why that would be so. Again, that's my biggest takeaway is let's start connecting those dots and then if you are struggling with any of these things, it's time to do some testing. Topical is a band aid. Let's figure out what's really going on there. Super important. All right, grab the download. I will see you next week if you haven't left a review yet and subscribe.

Subscribed.

Be sure you subscribe so you don't miss any of the goodness and leave a review because I'd love to shout you out. Thanks. Bye.

Hello listeners. This is Anne Bogle, author, blogger, and creator of the podcast what Should I Read next? Since 2016, I've been helping readers bring more joy and delight into their reading lives. Every week, I take all things books and reading with a guest and guide them in discovering their next read. They share three books they love, one book they don't, and what they've been reading lately, and I recommend three titles they may enjoy reading next. Guests have said our conversations are like therapy, troubleshooting issues that have plagued their reading lives for years and possibly the rest of their lives as well. And of course, recommending books that meet the moment. Whether they are looking for deep introspection to spur or encourage a life change, or a frothy page turner to help them escape the stresses of work, school, everything, you'll learn something about yourself as a reader and you'll definitely walk away confident to choose your next read, with a whole list of new books and authors to try. So join us each Tuesday for what Should I Read Next? Subscribe now wherever you're listening to this podcast and Visit our website whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com to find out more.