How to Combat Shameflammation with Will Cole

Hey, J.J. here.

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Hey, I'm J.J. virgin, Ph.D. dropout. Sorry mom turned four time New York Times best selling author.

You?

Yes, I'm a Certified Nutrition Specialist, Fitness hall of Famer and I speak at health conferences and trainings around the globe. But I'm driven by my insatiable curiosity and love of science to keep asking questions, digging for answers, and sharing the information I uncover with as many people as I can. And that's why I created the Ask the Health Expert podcast to synthesize and simplify the science of health into actionable strategies to help you thrive. In each episode we'll talk about what's working in the world of wellness, from personalized nutrition and healing your metabolism to healthy aging and prescriptive fitness. Join me on the journey to BetterHelp so you can love how you look and feel right now and have the energy to play full out at 100. I have my buddy Dr. Will Kolbach and he just first of all, he's the most creative with his book titles of anyone ever. So we've had him on the show to talk about Ketotarian and then he also did his New York Times bestseller Intuitive Fasting and he also wrote the Inflammation Spectrum. He's back. This time we're going to be talking gut feelings healing the shame fueled relationship between what you eat and how you feel yet again. Another amazing title. Dr. Will Cole is a functional medicine expert. He has a huge telehealth practice way before everybody else was doing it. He is focused on functional medicine, approach to thyroid autoimmune, hormonal imbalances, digestive disorders and more. He also has the Art of Being well podcast and is featured. Oliver Goop and what's very interesting about him is a he again does the best book titles and just the way he explains things. But it all has come up with how he works in his practice and how he's explaining things to patients and you're going to hear about how his books come out of that, which I think is just genius. We're going to have some cool stuff that you will get by going to jjvirgin.com forward/gut feelings. You're going to get some awesome recipes. We always love those. Sneak peek of the book and some and invited to a three week event that he's doing with our buddy Dr. Daniel. Amen. And also another podcast guest, Dr. Carolyn Leaf. So you'll want to go and get that. And again, that's@jjvirgin.com gut feelings and now I'm going to introduce my buddy, Dr. Will Cole to you. If you haven't heard him before, you may want to go back and listen to some of the other podcasts. He is a fantastic guests and we're doing a little different today. Again we're going to really talk about the gut brain connection and how you have to work from both the dietary side and the nervous system side to get truly healthy. So I'll be right back.

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Okay, so Will, I just. I gotta know because you've done keto. You did that intuitive fasting book which I think people didn't really understand when I saw the title. Oh, funny. Which we have to. I know we talked about that a Little bit before. But I love the play on intuitive eating that you did there. You did your inflammation book. This feels like you just did this, like, I don't know, detour to the left here with this Gut feelings book. So I would love to go with. Start here with. You're now digging into connecting how you feel when you eat. Shame, trauma, like, where did this come from?

Yeah. And thank you, jj, as always. Just your years of support and friendship and it does not go unnoticed. So thank you. All of the books that I've written, like, all the things you mentioned, like with ketotarian, sort of a Mediterranean ketogenic way of eating or intuitive fasting and having that conversation around sort of a mindful way of fasting and so of the minds. The mindset behind fasting as well and food and the inflammation spectrum. Talking about inflammation and how it exists on a continuum. All of these conversations that I have in book form are conversations that I have on an hourly basis running the telehealth Center. So they're all just when do I want to have that conversation with people that aren't my patients? Is really the question is. So this book concept of gut feelings is something that I wanted to have for a long time. It's just a matter was the timing of what, when did it come out? I guess so, because it's so integral to my work with patients. It's the. The reality that in the west we like to separate mental health from physical health. But really empowering people to realize that mental health is physical health and really showing them the both the physiological and. And the psychological component to why we feel the way that we do specifically around brain fog, fatigue, anxiety, depression, neurological issues. So gut feelings, the physiological and the psychological, like the physical issues of underlying gut problems and chronic infections and mold, toxins and Lyme disease and nutrient deficiencies. The things that I measure on patients labs will impact how our mood is, will impact things like anxiety and depression and irritability and things like that. But then conversely, the feeling side of it, the research around stress, chronic stress and shame and trauma and intergenerational trauma, these mental, emotional, spiritual things, how do they impact our physical body? And how they impact and can be dysregulating our nervous system, driving inflammation, impacting our gut brain axis and literally be stored in our cells, impacting methylation, expression. These are two sides of the conversation that need to be had. Certainly I have to have them with my patients, but I want the convers around mental health. And I think you and I probably both agree that it's great that people are talking about mental health and destigmatizing it and allowing people space to go get help. That's great. But I think in many ways it's an incomplete conversation that the world is having around mental health because they're not connecting the fact that mental health is physical health. They're just saying, well, go get mental health care. Well, that's great. But really getting sustainable care for many, many people involves dealing with the physiological side of mental health issues. So that's what I'm trying to do with the book.

I love it. I also think, you know, just this idea that you've been having these conversations with your patients and you go, okay, when is it time to put this into a book to reach more people? That's so smart. And the way you name your books too, like, are you coming up with those names? Because if you are, like I'm, I am just, wow, bowing to you like this one. Gut feelings. He I love marketing. So healing the shame fueled relationship between what you eat and how you feel. Like, this is, it's so good. And you know, I love the fact that you're connecting the dots between food and mental health as well. And I remember my kids were in kindergarten and I get a call from school and they called me and they said, hey, come pick up your son Grant. And I go, why? And they go, he's climbing the walls. And I go, he's climbing the walls? What are you talking about? And they go, well, he won the Christmas wrapping paper contest for both sales. So he got a pound bag of M M's and we gave him the pound bag of M M's and now he's climbing the wall. And I'm thinking, I'm not coming to get you. I'm like, you, you're stuck with him for a while. But you know, that's a, that's a really obvious situation of how food impacts our mood. But what I love to look at, like as we start to unpack this, I'd love to talk, really start to connect those dots because I know with just sugar alone, you know, people think of sugar and go, oh, sugar, you're going to gain weight. But like, that's one little piece of sugar. Like probably the, the least of the problems, right?

Oh yeah, 100%. And yeah, that's a massive problem. Like you mentioned your son in school, like how many kids today right there left to really be at the whim of a system that isn't really set up for their health and their, their Talent and the skills that they have lying dormant in their body when they're fed with nutrient less foods. And there are probably pockets of changes that are in the right direction. Maybe, but maybe, maybe. I don't know. I'm sure there's some good people trying to do good things.

I think a couple of the little private schools. But the challenge is like, you know, we actually tried to affect some change, but there's government contracts with schools. Right.

I remember my high school had a sponsorship, sponsorship deal with Pepsi. So it was like Pepsi machines throughout, it was like everywhere was advertised to high school students. Pepsi, we don't need to be advertised. Pepsi high school students.

That's like, yeah, yeah. It's like putting meth, meth things around.

You know, it's like meth dealers around. I know, it's really, it's wild. It's very wild. You can still have a conversation around. But I get, in a way, it's like so much money around it. Schools need money and they're going to take the money from these junk food industries.

Why not cigarettes?

Yeah.

I mean, you know, if you accept. I love what Dr. Mark Hyman says, that sugars are our number one recreational drug of choice. Yeah, like it is. So, you know, it's like, do you really want to be giving your kids the Skittles and juice packs and all that stuff?

You know, I know, but, and, and the foods we eat impact our mood. I mean, whether you're talking about school age kids or whoever you are, you have to realize every meal that you eat is either feeding health or feeding health problems. And it's the foods we eat. Candy, if we give it the chance to do so. When you're looking at nutrient density and the bioavailability of those nutrients, we can provide our body the raw materials it needs to make neurotransmitters, literally. So when the old saying, you are what you eat now science substantiates that, that the foods we eat actually helps to make the tissues that make up things like serotonin and dopamine and acetylcholine for focus or hormone health. So yeah, it's a fast, really important facet. And what we eat, we, we aren't just what we eat. That is true, that's part of it. But we are ultimately what we absorb back to gut health. And our gut is also home to 95% of where serotonin is made and stored. 95% of serotonin is made and stored in the gut. 50% of dopamine is made in the gut, stored in the gut. So these sort of pleasure, joy, focus, happiness, neurotransmitters largely are made in the second brain in the gut. And I know you know this, but people that are newer to this conversation, your gut and brain are actually formed from the same fetal tiss. So when babies are growing in their mother's womb, the gut and brain are formed from that same fetal tissue and are inextricably linked for the rest of our lives through what's known as the gut brain axis, or the connection between the two. So our food that we eat is not only influencing from a raw material nutrient standpoint to make neurotransmitters, but the foods we eat can also really do a number on our gut health, which is where most of neurotransmitters are made and stored. Or, or it can really feed a healthy gut garden, a healthy microbiome to be supportive of all these pathways. And then on top of that, this barring mood, directly, indirectly, 75% of the immune system is made in the gut. So when you're talking about inflammation, which will hurt anybody's mood, I mean, if you're struggling with inflammation of the brain or systemic inflammation, you're not going to feel good, you're going to feel irritable, anxious, wired and tired, as how people explain it. And most of that is originating in the gut. So we have to realize that this is the power that we wield with every meal.

How are you looking for when patients come in? Because we talk so much about inflammation. You wrote a whole book on it, and someone comes in and we know inflammation is underlying a lot of these problems, but how would you go about showing them? What tests are you looking at? How can you tell them and show them that inflammation is a key driver?

So both subjectively and objectively, subjectively, we go off of first how you feel. Right. And I think that's one of the areas that I have in gut feelings is kind of showing people the connection between how they feel and inflammation and showing them. And a concept that I talk in the book is called shameflammation. It's sort of that intersection between mental emotional issues like stress and shame and how that impacts our physical body. So looking at the physiological and the psychological impact of inflammation, that's really the conversation I'm having in gut feelings. So things like fatigue, brain fog, trouble falling asleep, staying asleep, my irritable, am I anxious, Am I tired? These are things that are signs, they're pointers that there's some dysregulation going on in the nervous system. And part of that nervous system dysregulation is an inflammatory component for many people. And their immune system is in that hyperactive state. And we can quantify that. So off of how you feel, and going off of how you feel is a good pointer. Labs are the gold standard still to really see data and see that data improve. And that's what we run for our telehealth patients. High sensitivity C reactive protein is number one. We want HSCRP to be under one. And the American Heart association, the cdc, will have, when you look at the conventional lab reports, they'll have similar reference ranges. They want it to be under one. And so we do the same in functional medicine. Homocysteine is another one. Homocysteine is an inflammatory protein. It's a part of something called methylation, which I talk a lot about in the book, because methylation is needed for making neurotransmitters. And even slightly elevated homocysteine levels is associated with an increased in blood brain barrier permeability, or what they call leaky brain syndrome. As someone.

And what do you consider a slightly elevated homocysteine since above 7? Yeah, I was going to say I'm assuming that the levels we're seeing in the tests are not what we want to go by, so.

Yeah, true. Well said. Yeah. We want to look at optimal, not average. That labs reference range, to your point, is based off of a statistical bell curve. Average of people who go to labs. People that go to labs aren't the healthiest bunch of people, sadly. So we're looking at the functional range and not the. We're looking optimal, not average. We're looking at where does the body function the best. So the functional range for homocysteine is under 7. And there's a lot of things like the mental, emotional, spiritual component of it, like stress and shame and trauma, but also underlying gut problems. Mold, toxins, chronic Lymes can deplete what are called methyl donors, these carbon hydrogen groups that really impact the way that methylation is functioning and that can cause an accumulation of this inflammatory marker called homocysteine. Ferritin is another one that I measure on labs. You always want to put ferritin in context with the other markers around it, like the full iron panel of iron and iron saturation and total iron binding capacity, all of those markers. But ferritin can, for many of our patients, act as an acute phase reactant. So basically in states of inflammation, you'll see ferritin spike, but Iron will be normal. Sometimes you'll even see low iron. Oftentimes a lot of our fatigue and brain fog patients, but you'll see high ferritin but low iron. And that's sort of this brain fog fatigue pattern that you can see for many people because there's nutrient deficiencies, that is iron and things like vitamin C and B vitamins, but they're in a state of inflammation, and that's artificially spiking ferritin. So those are some easy, more mainstream labs that we look at for patients with inflammation.

So I think there's something really interesting to explore here. And I haven't really heard people talk about this, and it is what happens. And it's so. It's like your book is so perfect right now, coming off of a couple years of, like, insane stress. Because no matter what was going on, just that whole state of, like, what the heck is going on and what are they going to do to us next? You know, like, what's happening next? The state of uncertainty and lack of control is going to make anyone stressed. And I'll give you a little interesting thing that happened to me. And then what I'd love to do is explore, you know, how this happens so people can understand the role of stress. Is while the pandemic was going on, I also got, like, had a really weird thing happen in business where I got kicked out of one of the companies. So it was like, not a bueno thing and super high stress. And I step on the scale, my weight's up five pounds. And I think to myself, all right, well, you know, stress. I know what stress does. Blah, blah, blah. Okay, fine. Except now it starts going up a pound a day. That's not fine. So I ran over, like, called all my doc friends. Everyone's like, it's this, it's that, it's this. One of my friends was like, oh, you know, you just kicked up this autoimmune disease again. It was Dr. Alan Christensen and run over, get all the tests. Yep, sure enough, autoimmune gastritis. I'm like, darn it. But it was interesting because I resolved that. And then I started doing Dr. Joe Dispenza's meditation work, which I wish you'd been at Mind share this year. We had Dr. Joe there. It was like, it was insane. Anyway, aside, I was telling him, I go, you know, it's interesting because I've started meditating every single day. I never used to do it. It was kind of a gift of the pandemic. And just from meditating. It's the only thing I changed. Didn't change anything else. Didn't change the way I eat, didn't exercise any more or less. Didn't change sleep. Purely purely added in, sitting down and meditating. Five pounds gone. And he of course says that's the do thing diet. Because he tells everyone you're going to become nowhere. No thing, nothing. Right. But I think it's important for people to understand what stress can do to your gut, how it disrupts and how important this is to your overall health. I don't really know how someone can get healthy with, with unless they're addressing their chronic stress. And especially, you know, how does chronic stress set you up for more gut problems? I know I throw a lot out there, so I'm.

That's important.

There you go.

I love it. I mean, that's brilliant and amazing, right? That you could have that and talk about something that's completely free meditation and breath work. And these are what I call in the book and to my patients, I call them metaphysical meals. Like they are like breakfast, lunch and dinner, right?

I love your. I love all your meta like shame flammation, metaphysical meals like holy smokes, Will.

I'm telling you, jj, it's just because I talk to patients all day long and like so much of my job is educating in words and being as pithy and succinct and connecting with people where they're at. So I do appreciate that. But yeah, I mean, this, these metaphysical meals, it's easy for us to be in nutrition and wellness functional medicine for us to be prescriptive, right? And say, like what? These foods, like you wrote the book on it, like, these are the foods that are most likely to drive inflammation levels up. And they are very helpful where we're changing lives and people know this stuff, that every meal they have is an opportunity to, to modulate their health in a positive direction. It is a lot more to unpacked in a bigger, less prescriptive conversation to say shame and stress and trauma. Like, you can't tell someone to just don't stress and don't have trauma and don't have shame.

Let that go. Let it go.

I just don't have it.

It's like even quantifying it. And even as I started to go through meditation, which I went through, like I went to four of his workshops in a year and I'm like, am I doing it? You know, overachievers, Am I doing it right? Nothing's happening here. Everyone else is having an experience I'm not like all that stuff. Like it's, it's not as quantifiable as like eat 6 ounces of wild salmon. Easy to achieve, right?

Yeah, right. You know when you did it and when you don't and it's a lot more obvious. But cumulatively these metaphors metaphysical meals are important and it is something showing up like you do for breakfast, lunch and dinner like every day. Even like micro moments of consistency can be a needle mover for people. And I feel like if you be, if you can be consistent with the micro moments then as you're. You get comfortable with it as it becomes a habit, as you start feeling better and noticing differences, then you have typically more resilience and bandwidth to do more of it. So looking at the research, just getting to explore as I wrote the book of what meditation can do to regulate the nervous system. What breath work can do in the different types of breath work like holotropic breathwork and different breathwork meditation combinations of how these things are shown in science. It's not just some woo woo fringe thing. How can actually modulate our nervous system, inflammation levels and endocrine system our hormones in a positive degree because we're shifting our body into more of a parasympathetic state that resting, digesting, I. E. Hormone balanced better gut brain access health. So it's powerful. So in the book I did a 21 day protocol for people to just learn about themselves. And every day there's a gut and a feeling action item. There's a gut like physical health, how to nourish their gut health or supporting on a physical level with nutrition and protocols that I use for patients. And then on the feeling side it's the mental, emotional, spiritual stuff that we implement into patients. Protocols like breath work and meditation and the research around forest bathing and using nature as a meditation and a medicine. There's so many cool things that are being explored in the journals but I wanted to share with people in the book how to really implement these things because consistency is key both for food and the non food stuff. But certainly with the non prescriptive things consistency is important.

So forest bathing, whenever I hear that like you know, it's I. My brain goes to something entirely different. Like you think of people naked in the forest.

Yeah, but they could do that too.

Not really what it is. I mean, I guess they could.

I mean, yeah.

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You know, with all of these things, what, what is the impact? Because again, this has been a stressful time. But I think, you know, when you really look at life, it's really a matter of learning how to handle stress. And you know, I had a mentor telling me early on in business, she goes, it doesn't get easier, there's just more zeros. Meaning you're just handling higher levels of stuff. You think, you know, when you're a kid, things are challenging, then all of a sudden you're in college, it's challenging, then all of a sudden you're out of college. It's more like it just continues to go up, right? And so it really comes down to how do we learn how to manage the stress and if we don't know how to do that or we have unresolved trauma, what is this doing to us?

Well, most of our patients, when they meet us and most people, I would say in the world today are in varying degrees of that sympathetic hyperactivation, right? They're autonomic.

And explain what that means to, to a human who goes, what's sympathetic? What's autonomic? What is all that?

Let's, let's, we should all be sympathetic.

From people that are stuck in the sympathetic. You know, the autonomic nervous system, our nervous system have, has two main branches of activity or function in the body. Both are important. Not one's not better than the other. But it's about balance, right? It's about homeostasis, it's about regulation of the nervous system. And the sympathetic is the adage that goes along with it. Sort of the rhyming name for it is the fight or flight response. The fight, flight, stressed, inflamed response. And then the parasympathetic is the rest digest hormone balance state. Both are important, but most people are in that, I'm under threat to varying degrees. And what does that look like on a physiological level? Their hormones are all dysregulated because their body's in that fight or flight stress state. They're not safe. Their body physiologically doesn't feel safe. So the physiology is responding to that nervous system state. So hormones, what we typically will see and for patients on labs, we typically will See the hypothalamic pituitary adrenal axis, the brain. Brain adrenal axis. You'll see cortisol high when it should be low or low and it should be high, or it's always high or it's always low, depending on where they're at, at their journey and how long they've been struggling with it.

But you'll probably don't see a lot of them with high cortisol because they feel great at that point. Right?

Yeah, you know, that's a great point.

Right.

I know many people will tell me why I feel like my cortisol should be high because they're struggling with that fatigue, the anxious anxiety, that wired and tired. But you're right, it's like, well, you're not typically coming that early on.

You don't.

Yeah, you, you feel great at that time. I mean, that was always. When I used to do a lot of adrenal evals, I was like, when they're under that first part of stress, they're like, we can conquer the world.

Right.

And society rewards us for that, doesn't it?

Yeah, it's truly. It's seen as a badge of honor. Burnout is like a. Yeah. Something to be applauded. But you'll see a lot of HPA axis dysregulation and then invariably part of that, I mean, blood sugar is thrown off when, when cortisol's off, Bl blood sugar is going to be thrown off, thyroid is going to be impacted negatively. We see a lot of under conversion of T4 to T3, like lower total T3, lower, lower free T3. And obviously estrogen and progesterone are impacted, testosterone is impacted, but these hormones are kind of just like biochemical emails. We have to go upstream and ask, well, why, to your point, when you're going through that stressful time and your hormones may have been impacted, but because of the stress that was going on in the autoimmune flare up, that was happening. So that's sort of the upstream downstream context that we always want to put into play whenever we're looking at labs and doing a patient workup. But that's what's happening. This is why people should care. Because it's not a matter of just like, you know, we're just talking about dieting. This is not about just dieting and losing weight, like you said. This is the impact of people's, how they feel from a mental health standpoint and overall health standpoint, but also the impact that it has on their Relationships. I just was talking to a patient the other day and she said, like, I was having so much such marriage problems when I met you. And I thought it was just him, like, he was like this like, buffoon that was like always irritating me. But then when I realized, oh, when I was dealt with the gut and the feelings, the physiological and the psychological and I didn't have this anymore and my nervous system was regulated, then I realized, well, it was just my irritability and resilience. And not that he didn't have things to work on, but it was when you have more resilience, you're not as irritable and you can work on things a lot more effortlessly.

Yeah. I notice when I've pushed myself out of balance a bit that people's noises when they chew irritate, like, I just go, oh, I'm over the. I'm across the line.

Please stop that right now.

Stop it. Like my little puppies crunching or kibble. And I'm like, I can't deal with it, you know, so it is interesting and it's good to have these little things that you're aware of because I think that's the bigger challenge on the trauma, trauma stress side is it's easy to quantify. Oh, like, you know, that's why I was saying, how are you looking at inflammation? How would you look at gut health where you can see a lab test and go see, there's an issue, you know, and unstressed. Yes, you can look at a cortisol rhythm, but some of this stuff like, you know, how do you tell someone's got deep, unresolved trauma that's, you know, impacting their health. How would you unpack that?

Yeah, well, for patients, that's where health history and sitting proverbially sitting with them via telehealth, like I'm doing right now. I. We ask a lot of detailed questions and we get real, real fast as far as having. And they fill out something called an adverse childhood experience score, which we. I explained in the book what it is. But basically it's looking at things like sexual trauma, physical, mental, emotional abuse. Growing up. Was there substance abuse in the home? Was there mental illness in the home? Like, what were these really formidable formative years that can be very formidable for many people that are really can the early years of our lives does a major role in how our gut brain axis is expressed. And on top of that, that's on a mental emotional level and how it impacts our physical health. But then you think of the Foods that people are eating. So I ask, what was your diet like growing up? Were you on antibiotics a lot? I mean, how were you born? Vaginally versus C section. These things determine the microbiome, which is where most neurotransmitters are made and stored anyways. So both a gut and a feelings from early health history. Every console I have to have. And then maybe people will think that, well, man, I'm screwed. Like, I had a horrible childhood, but the body's amazingly resilient. I just, we have to know what we're dealing with to do something about it and to look at the areas that are maybe the dark corners that we don't look very often, but are really oftentimes. They hold the key to overcoming that plateau that people are stuck at. And then on top of that, it's beyond childhood. Like, what relationships and your career, like, all of these things over time, from adolescence on, can be cumulatively impacting your health today. And then on top of that, we even get into more obscure science. But I hope with time, it's less obscure of intergenerational trauma, of really going back even generations, and how the lives of our great grandparents can be impacting our health today.

And the good news is, because I'm listening to this going, who didn't have some stuff happen in childhood? Like, who didn't have some adverse childhood events? Like, I'm trying to think of who I know in my life who hasn't. Like, I think of all the patients, like, you know, we're gonna have those. And then. And then you just get layered and layered. But the reality is with an approach, because you're taking a very clear approach of, you know, what you're putting into your body and. And helping with nervous. It's like, to me, nervous system goes to the gym, so nervous system helps gut health. Putting it all together, which I haven't seen anyone do, you're the first imagine that.

And people that are talking to me about the book, they're just like, wow, like, that is a weird topic. Why are you doing that right now? I just, to me, I feel like it's an important topic to have because I see it on an hourly basis, not just with my patients, but I see it on social media. Like, the amount of people want to know about this stuff. I just think that mental health conversation in sort of the mainstream world is just an incomplete conversation, which, fine, I'm glad they're having at least a conversation about mental health. But I think us in functional medicine and nutrition and our world can have a great conversation about it because it's things that we see all the time and we love the people that we get to help. So let's, let's have that conversation for everybody else.

Yes. And shine a light on it and take it out of the darkness. I was raised in a family with a son. We're both adopted. My brother was. Is schizophrenic and we had to keep it as a secret.

Secret.

You know what I'm like? Yeah, I don't know. I think people might have a suspicion something's up, you know, so I'm glad that this is out in the light of day. I really appreciate our buddy Dr. Daniel Amen's whole work on the fact that mental illness is a brain illness. And anything that's, you know, and your brain is in your gut, you've tied those two together. And when you take that mental illness is a brain illness and there's a, you know, a gut brain axis, it just makes perfect sense to put this all together like you have. So thank you. I appreciate that. It's so fantastic. And the book is Gut Feelings.

Gut Feelings.

All right. Thank you.

Thank you, my friend.

Be sure to join me next time for more tools, tips and techniques you can incorporate into everyday life to ensure you look and feel great and more importantly, that you're built to last.

Last.

And check me out on Instagram, Facebook.

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Hello listeners, this is Ann Bogle, author, blogger, and creator of the podcast what Should I read? Since 2016, I've been helping readers bring more joy and delight into their reading lives. Every week, I tag all things books and reading with a guest and guide them in discovering their next read. They share three books they love, one book they don't, and what they've been reading lately. And I recommend three titles they may enjoy reading next. Guests have said our conversations are like therapy. Troubleshooting issues that have plagued their reading lives for years and possibly the rest of their lives as well. And of course, recommending books that meet the moment. Whether they are looking for deep introspection to spur or encourage a life change or a frothy page turner to help them escape the stresses of work, school, everything, you'll learn something about yourself as a reader and you'll definitely walk away confident to choose your next read. With a whole list of new books and authors to try. So Join us each Tuesday for what should I Read next? Subscribe now wherever you're listening to this podcast and Visit our website, whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com to find out more.