Midlife Love Story: Dating, Marriage & Intimacy After 40 | Expert Guide with James & Claire Davis

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But I'm driven by my insatiable curiosity and love of science to keep asking questions, digging for answers, and sharing the information I uncover with as many people as I can. And that's why I created the well Beyond 40 podcast to synthesize and simplify the science of health into actionable strategies to help you thrive. In each episode, we'll talk about what's working in the world of wellness, from personalized nutrition and healing your metabolism to healthy aging and prescriptive fitness. Join me on the journey to better health so you can love how you look and feel right now and have the energy to play full out at 100 midlife relationships are complex, they're challenging and they're often misunderstood. But today we're pulling back the curtain on what really happens to our partnerships, friendships and even our relationship with ourselves as we navigate our 40s, 50s and beyond. I'm thrilled to introduce you to Claire and James Davis, the husband and wife duo behind the award winning fitness brand 38 Degrees north and their coaching business, the Midlife Mentors. As certified menopause practitioners and regular health commentators, they've made it their mission to revolutionize how we approach midlife wellness. In this episode, we're diving deep into the often overlooked aspects of relationships. At this time in our lives, we'll explore how our values shift as we age, why friendships evolve or sometimes dissolve, and the unexpected challenges and opportunities that come up in long term partnerships. Claire and James have a unique perspective as both experts and a couple who met and fell in love later in life. They have extensive backgrounds in psychology, coaching, hormone health, nutrition, personal training and stress management. And so in our conversation, you'll get a refreshing science based approach to midlife wellness. 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All right, so, James and Claire, I am so excited to have you here and to talk about something that we've never talked about on this show, which is relationships and really, relationships at midlife. And I'll full disclosure, I met my husband at 52, and so I get a lot of friends going. How did you find him? How did that happen? And I know that you. How old were you guys when you met each other?

Oh, my goodness.

I was in my late 40s, I think.

Eight years ago. And I was in my. No, so I was in my late 30s. My late 30s.

Okay. A little chicken. You are a spring chicken. Yeah, Tim and I met eight years ago, too, and so. And now we're working together, so I'd love to hear about how you guys met. And now you're ending up working together. So we definitely need to talk a little bit about working with your spouses and how that works. But first, the first fun, juicy part Is how the heck did you guys meet?

So we met in Ibiza in Spain, probably around 2011 for the first time. And James was married and I was married, and we all had the same friendship group. And I was a. James was running retreats over there, like wellness, luxury wellness retreats. And I was doing a lot of coaching. So I was going over there and working for some of the retreat companies over there. And I saw his blue eyes across. Across the room, and I thought, oh, he's married and I'm married, damn it. So it transpired that a couple of years after that, I found out that James's marriage had broken up and my marriage had broken up in exactly the same time. And I popped over, I had mutual friends. I popped over to Ibiza, and they said, james wants to see you. James wants to take you out on a date. And I was like, that's really inappropriate.

Why is that inappropriate?

But then I bumped into you in a bar and it kind of went from there.

Yeah, okay. All right. Well, I met my husband on Match, so. Yeah. So you've been in the wellness space doing wellness retreats, James, and you've been coaching, and now you've put together this business, which I was like, this is intriguing because it's so needed. And I don't see anyone doing it where you're helping. Helping people navigate midlife. And so did you. How soon after getting together did you start working together?

It was pretty much straight away. So obviously Claire was living in London, I was in Ibiza. And we're like, we don't want a long distance relationship. So Claire came over and started working in my retreat company, which I think was very brave of her to do. But then after a while, we kind of figured out, like, how to make it more equitable. And then we launched the Midlife Mentors, which was a joint thing between us. And we thought it was so needed because it really came from our own experience. So many of our clients come on. The retreats were kind of 35 plus, and we were seeing lots of similar things present. But more than that, it was our time of life. Like, I was in my late 40s, so many of our friends were like, oh, you know, this is it. It's the beginning of the end. You just have to put up with low energy levels, expanding waistline. That's it. No, it doesn't have to be this way. It doesn't. So we started a podcast, first of all, just talking about, you know, what you could be doing for yourself physically, emotionally, psychologically. And it Grew from there. When Covid hit, obviously we couldn't run retreats anymore. And we'd always been saying, oh, we should probably do more of this online, online stuff. So we're like, okay, what about if we designed a program specifically for midlifers that looked at things like understanding your hormones and how to work with them, your emotional resilience, you know, how to build a positive mindset. Because we know that at midlife, you know, there's psychological pressures, an evidence back way to move, and a sensible nutrition approach. We put all that together, ran a little beta, was really successful. People got great results, loved it, refined it, and we just kind of went from there, really.

You said that you had people coming to your retreats in their 40s and 50s and that they were having the same issues and struggles. And so what are like, what do you see as these core issues and struggles that seem to happen at midlife?

I think the core ones are from the physical perspective. It's, I'm piling on the pounds and I am doing exactly what I used to do. I'm doing exactly what I used to do, and nothing's working. And I'm doing loads more cardio to try and make this work. I'm doing all the diets and nothing's working. So that's one of the things and you know, that's super frustrating for people and especially with the hormone changes. For women, we know scientifically that our fat distributes. Actually when we go through the perimenopause and menopause, it goes from our hips and thighs and starts moving around to our belly.

So women, my mom called it shifting sand. She said, your butt goes to your gut.

Exactly. So they're like, what's, what's this, what's this pouch? And honestly, like, the other thing is just the enormous amount of pressure that we're on with, you know, young children or teenage children, aging parents. We're juggling societal stuff that's going on, which is very stressful and very fear based. We're trying to climb the career ladder still. We're worried about money, cost of living. But I think really a lot of the time it's that awful, awful saying that midlife crisis that we like to rename as a midlife opportunity or midlife reinvention. But people reach that point and they're asking themselves really big questions. You know, they're, they're like, I've been waiting for this time when I was going to be happy when I got to this moment in time. And we've Been having that in our entire life. You know, when you go to secondary school, you get these grades, you're going to be happy, and then when you get your job, you'll be happy. So we've been constantly waiting for that. That switch of happiness to go on, and we're realizing that it doesn't actually exist. This is really. It's. It is an inside job. And. But it's very, very sobering when people get to that point. They're like, I've spent all this time gathering stuff around me, all the material possessions, but also all the stuff for my ego, and I'm not fulfilled. I'm not sustained by it. So that's a really big thing, because that can feel. People don't want to look at that. They're like, oh, I can do the diet and I can do all the ex. I can do that stuff. But that inner work can feel very, very overwhelming for people, and they don't always want to look at it.

And yet we know. And I fortunately found out about this research, like, right before I was turning 60, and I went, ooh, okay, I'm taking this on. And it was that people who are positive about aging live seven and a half years longer than people who don't. And I'm like, all right, well, so this is just to choose. Let's choose to be excited about this. And I think, honestly, we all know that I had a great mentor who said, what are you pretending not to know? This whole naggy thing back here that you're like, you know, didn't do what you wanted to do, and you're not really happy in your relationship, you're not really happy in your work, and you know it. So why not just pull the band aid off on it? What do you see, you know, in this time period in terms of relationships and both romantic relationships, and then I'd love to talk friend relationships, because I think we also don't talk about that, but just a romantic relationship where all of a sudden you're looking, you know, you're questioning what you want to do. And my part of that might be questioning if you want to be with the person that you've been with all this time, too. So, like, what happens with that?

Yeah, that's a really good question. It's something we see a lot of with clients, actually, because I think there's this kind of natural questioning, what do I want from life? Where do I want to go? Is this the person? Do I want to carry on hitching my wagon to this person? Or Not. I think the other thing that plays into that is obviously the hormonal changes that both men and women are undergoing at this time in life. You know, for women going through the perimenopause and menopause, men might have low testosterone. They can start to feel and experience changes not just in their bodies, but in their psychology as well. And what we hear a lot is, like, I felt like a stranger in my own body. And, of course, that can create distance if they're not communicating about it. And the big one that no one talks about is obviously libido. That's obviously driven by our hormones. If they become mismatched, and again, they're not communicating about that. We know rejection is one of the most powerful human fears. So that can lead to big schisms. I think if you're in a romantic relationship, it's really important to be brave enough to be vulnerable and explore with your partner about how you're feeling on all levels, because that's the way you actually bring yourselves closer to. And then you can make a fair assessment of whether, you know, this is someone I do want to continue down this path with, or maybe we go our own way. But you've at least had the conversations, rather than having things happening in isolation to each of you and not really understanding what's going on for yourself, let alone what's going on for your partner, and then going in different directions.

Right. And I would assume, because for women, you know, a lot of this is really starting to hit around mid-40s and a little later, men. And nowadays it's different because of all the stress, but it used to be it was the late 50s, so, you know, there is that mismatch there, too. And for women especially, where you literally feel like a different person there for a while and, you know, you're. And alongside that are some of those just physical changes, too. And I hear it more because this show is more women, and women will be. What can you do about my husband? Can you have your husband talk to my husband? Because my husband went through. He's always been athletic and fit, but when we met, he went through a total body transformation. But what do you do about that side of it, too? And I'll never forget it. I remember working with one client, a surgeon out in California. He said, hey, will you. You know, I. I want you to come over to the house to train us, and I want you to fix my fat wife. And I thought, I think I. Your fat wife should divorce. You're your fat wife. No prize either Dude, I was like, oh, my gosh.

I think, I think with this, I, I, I really feel like the whole point body changes thing, when we have one, one side of a couple come and join our program, it's a really beautiful thing. Sometimes they'll, they'll get so into it that their husband. It's normally the women that start with us, because us women are kind of like, I'm unhappy. Let me do something about it. And then they bring their, their husbands or their partners on board. That's a really beautiful thing. I love to, we love to see that. But on the flip side of that, whether it's the man or the woman, sometimes if you're unhappy with your physical self, it's in your power and your responsibility to change that. And people start on that path and they have that transformation. And sometimes their partner and their friends and their family don't want to see that because it really highlights to them what they're not having the courage to change in themselves. So I think sometimes that's a, that's a really sad thing to see. But it does happen quite frequently is when you take back your power and you start to change. You've got to be really, really careful that those people around you don't want to. Aren't trying to drag you down, take you off course and not try. And try not to take it personally. Of course, it's very easy to. It's hot. Easier said than done not to take it personally. But actually, it's not about you. It's more about the version they have of you in their head, whatever that looks like. And the fact that you're changing and transforming really starts to shift what they need to look at you like, but also themselves. Like, who am I in relation to this new version of the person that I'm in a relationship with. So that can be a massive challenge as well, don't you think?

Part of that. Because I'll tell you two stories quickly where that happened. When I was working with husbands. One, I was working with a husband and wife. When I was working with the wife wife and with the one with the wife, we were working together. She was getting super fit and super strong, and her husband insisted she quit because he was so threatened. And then a similar thing happened with the husband and wife where the husband was really working on his heart health. He had some bad cardiovascular markers, so we had him on a very specific dietary approach and exercise. And she was bringing him pie in bed.

Yeah.

And I'm like, what, what's up with this and so you'll start to look and go, is part of this. That fear that this person's going to get, you know, physically more attractive, healthier, stronger, and leave them?

Yeah, yeah. It's sabotage, isn't it? Yeah, it's, you know, and here's the thing. It might not be. They might not be conscious that they are doing that. It might not even cut, but they're doing it nonetheless. And it's kind of sabotaging, like you said it is. It's absolutely threatened. And what's our basic human need? And it's. It's to be wanted, it's to feel, it's not to be left, it's not to be rejected. So if they think further down the line, oh, it's just a piece of pie. But actually, what's that? What belief is that covering up? What fear is that covering up? What are you doing there?

So how would you help them? Because literally, I don't think either of those people really was doing it to be mean. I don't think they had any clue why they were doing it. Right. How would you coach someone through that? Like, if. If the person can't stop, does this person have to leave or what. What do you do in a situation like that?

I think if it's, you know, if you're coaching the person that's making the. Making the changes and their partner's not being so supportive, I think, you know, you can coach the person you're coaching to actually have the conversation with the partner about, look, you know, this is what I'm trying to achieve. I still. I still love you. It's not going to change that. I just want to be a better version of myself. For me, for you, and for the relationship. But here are some of the behaviors I'm observing that are kind of derailing me a bit and not being helpful to where I want to go. I really appreciate it if you come on side. It's a hard conversation to have. I think it's about getting the person, as Claire said, they might not be consciously aware that they're sabotaging. It might be the subconscious is driving that. But once they become aware of it and if they're willing to take a hard look at it, go, okay, yeah, I can see what I'm doing there. And if they are even willing to look deeper and go, what is the fear there? Because once we confront our fears, we can deal with them, but if we just keep pushing them away, they're going to keep nagging at us. So it's about really confronting what that deep fear is, which is probably, you know, that partner is going to leave me if they suddenly become, you know, ripped and great and, you know, feel brilliant about themselves. And I'm still sat on the couch eating pie.

Well, speaking of sitting on the couch eating pie, what would you do then? That's the other side. Not only is the person who's trying to make that progress feeling kind of sabotaged and held back, but they're also frustrated because I feel so fortunate that my husband likes to eat the way I eat. We both are very focused on getting good sleep, on exercising, all of that stuff. So he's always a yes, right? You know, let's go. Let's not take a. We were in Miami, going to dinner with a bunch of people down in south beach, and it was like a 2 to 3 mile walk back to the hotel at 11 o' clock at night. And he was, yes. You know, I was like, why would we take a. I don't want to Uber, let's walk it.

Right?

Take advantage of this. So what do you do with the people who now are. Have such different lifestyle goals and the way they want to live their, their life? Is it possible to navigate that or is it, you know, is that one of those ones that you would have to say need to split?

Yeah, I mean, it depends how you communicate with that person. I think as well. I don't think it's impossible. I think it's very hard for you to. That's the thing, isn't it? If your values change, and we always say at midlife, our values really do deeply change. From our 20s and our 30s, even our early 40s, our values start to change. And if they're misaligned, that can cause a real, a real problem. But what I would say is having a bit of patience with that person. It's not a definite no. I've got to go. Having a bit of patience for that person to catch up with you, to catch up with that new version of you. It's a big change. That's a huge change actually, for a lot of people. Not only to the part partner, but to that person as well. So just give it a bit of time, have a bit of patience. And a lot of the time, you know, you would be surprised just by osmosis. That person might, we don't know, but might start picking up some of your healthy behaviors and your healthy thought patterns. And again, I've seen that happen so many times with mainly female clients and they've had exactly that situation. They're like, he's, he's just. We don't like the same things anymore. I feel like we're going in completely opposite directions. And I'm like, just be patient, keep communicating, stay in your own lane, stay on focus. Don't nag, don't nag. This is the thing, don't nag. Your expression of yourself and what you're doing is enough. You don't need to. If you keep pummeling home what they should and shouldn't be doing, they're going to reject what you're doing even more. So just take it patiently, be calm with them. And then by osmosis they might stop picking up some of your healthy behaviors. And you just don't know that. And if they don't, if they don't, and it's been like a little bit of time, then reconsider the situation.

But you said midlife, your values change from your 20s, 30s, 40s. What do you see those, like the big shifts in.

I think the biggest one, I summarise it is, you know, when we're young, we play to win, but as we get old, we play not to lose. We start to think about all the things that we could lose, opportunity, cost of doing things. We become more risk averse and then that manifests in a kind of more insular thinking. We move away from a growth mindset. So I think that's one thing to really recognize. And we're not like going like, go out and take crazy risks. But just think, where am I limiting myself currently that the younger me wouldn't have? I think that's a really big one.

Yeah. And I think the values piece, I think it's quite a beautiful thing that happens if we allow it. So if we're not fighting against it, a quite beautiful thing happens. And actually I've been going through a huge transition in the last 18 months where my values have changed enormously. I feel like someone's redesigned my DNA in a way, but like the, the values of my life have changed so much from wanting. It sounds terrible, I don't mean it quite in this way, but kind of take, take, take, you know, what can I get? What can I get? What can I get from, you know, really striving for more, more, more and actually moving more into a place of simplicity, actually of allowing myself instead of just being a human doing, I've allowed myself to become more of a human being and actually give more from a place of, I think, authenticity, vulnerability. So my value, you know, our values do tend to change from that kind of take, take striving. What can I get into more of? Okay. What really fulfills me? What is the truth truly important for my life? Where do I. Where do I see it? What can I give back? So that's a. That's a big shift.

I was going to say, I think the big thing Jung talked about the exhaustion of the ego by the time we reach midlife in terms of, you know, things we think we should be doing. And it's all about, you know, how we want to appear. It's like, oh, actually, what do I. What do I want to do? It's funny, that inner peace more so I think that's how our values shift.

I love that. I will tell you that I went through what I would call a lot of work on ego death in my 50s, you know, a lot of it. Like, and Tim and I were both working on things, and as he's working on them, it's like sunshine, butterflies, puppy dogs. And I'm over here going, you know, screaming at my ego. Okay. It's like, wow. But it is. All of a sudden, you do make that shift. And that is just. It's like the greatest shift ever. It's just too bad it couldn't have started been done earlier, where you just kind of go, oh, those things that were so important, now they don't even matter.

Yeah, it's true.

And it's wild. I wish I tell people, I tell women this. I go, for me, it happened right at 50. It was like a switch got flipped. And I figure it's a 50 thing. I just was like, why couldn't we fly flip that switch at 30 or 40, where you just don't care if someone says something, which is good, since we're online, something mean about us. Because, you know, if you're gonna put podcasts out or you're going to be social, you're like a target for just unhappy troll humans.

Totally. I think it's a really. It's a big relief when actually you're like, I just don't give up what other people are gonna say. It's about. It's really about those relationships I have, those special relationships. It's about really doing what I think I'm meant to do whilst I'm here. The ego death is a. Is a really good phrase to explain it.

Yeah.

I always think, like, a nice way to look at midlife transition is to think of it as like a reverse adolescence. You know, when you're a child, you're really kind of Carefree. You do what you want, you see your passions. Then you become an adolescent. Your hormones are bubbling over something. It's like, oh, what does everyone think of me? I want to fit in with the crowd. And then you, you hit midlife, and something like, those hormones are bubbling again. But it's kind of like, oh, I don't really care what anyone else thinks now.

That's very funny. Yeah. Reverse. I had someone called it something like your third, you know, or your second adolescence. But I think reverse adolescence is a way better way to describe it because, you know, I literally remember being in high school and spending an hour every morning to get my hair to look. Look perfect like Farrah Fawcett. And I'm like, going. And now I walk out of the house. I go, I did not even brush my hair.

Like, I didn't even.

I ran my hands through it. I was like. I realized I was at the gym. I know nothing. I had. Didn't even have sunscreen on. I'm like, what am I doing? Like, taking it too far.

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So beyond just the couples, you know, because your values are changing. You know, you talked about how to navig romantic relationship. I'd like to talk a little bit more on the libido side, but what about friend relationships? Because I noticed that the friends that I have now are very different than the friends that I had in my 20s and 30s.

Yes. Well, I have had this quite a lot, actually, of a falling away of certain friendships that I've had for a while that actually didn't serve me. Didn't maybe serve that other person either. So kind of mutually, they've just fallen away. I think I have a very new set, like a lovely set of new friendships that are all very, very different and all give me something very different that my friendships before didn't. But I do, I do think it's aligned with that when we step into, I suppose, really acknowledging who we are, our boundaries, our level of kind of putting people on pedestals, perhaps, or, you know, what we're actually getting from friendships. I think that happens a lot around midlife where some of those ones just naturally might fall away or there's something that might happen that breaks up those friendships. I've had that quite a lot in recent years. And when it comes to guys, what we see, us midlife women, we might gather new friendships around us and they're quite beautiful and empowering and lovely. For men, what we seem to find is that actually their friendships drop away and they start to isolate themselves quite a lot. So midlife men here in the uk, male suicide is like the high highest cohort of middle is midlife men.

Wow.

Like looking into that, you can kind of understand why, because they're getting towards their, the end of their career path, which absolutely is their self identity. You know, their career is so determined by their career, I would say more so than us women because we might have children, we've got those other friendships, we've got got other stuff going on. So when you take that away from them, they feel very isolated, they feel very alone. And their friendship groups were those people at work. It was the lads at work. So I think we have to be very, very careful with midlife men, encouraging them really to keep connected and in community with their fellow midlife men. I think it's very, very important.

I am so glad you brought this up. I will tell you, having, you know, being married to a midlife man, what I have noticed is, and I'd love you to comment on this, James, you guys do relationships very different than we do. And you know, and I was, as you were talking about this, Claire, I was thinking, well, is part of it because they're not doing now their sports anymore. And you know, so you have a guy who is maybe winding down on his career, he's not doing sports like he used to. Where would he meet guy friends?

Yeah, it's a massive issue. Like Claire said, like so many men, their identity gets wrapped up in their, in their career or maybe their sports as well. And then as that tails away, they're like, well, who am I? And their, their social world becomes smaller and smaller because we know from all the research, men are less good than women at maintaining social networks. They reach out to their friends as often they're less likely to ask for help. So I think for midlife men, my message and why I'm banging home all the time is like, keep expanding your network. You know, how would they do that? What lights you up? What's a hobby? Maybe it still is sports. Maybe it's something else. You know, one of the beauties of social media, it's Got lots of negatives. Is that we can find groups of people with similarly aligned interests and see how we fit in. So we can start in a virtual space, but we can find people in real life as well. And then I think it's important about not just the quantity of connections, but the quality of connection. So where men have a problem as well is opening up to other men. It's this whole thing of, you know, the stoic warrior. I will hold it all inside. I'll be strong myself. You know what?

When did they get over that? I mean, that's.

It's hard to get over because we're so conditioned to it.

But especially the British men.

Yeah, the. The braver things.

No, I don't think it's just British.

I mean, it's not the braver things do is actually be open and speak to your friends. Like, you know, oh, this is how I'm feeling at the moment. This is what's going on for me. And you'll be surprised when you start that conversation. The other guy will be like, oh, I'm so glad you said that. You know what? I thought I was the only one feeling this. So it's about encouraging men to have those conversations. And in the uk, we've seen a growth of, like, more men's mental health groups where guys can meet, like, around garden sheds and stuff, or hobbies where they literally go and discuss, like, what's going on in their lives and how they're feeling. And that's having a really positive impact on people. So I think for men, it's about finding those connections and then having the courage to kind of open up and explore things. It's not weakness to show your vulnerability. It's a form of strength.

So someone's been in a relationship for years, and now they're starting to make all these shifts. You know, what are some of the things that they could do kind of to revive? Like, let's say they've gotten a total rut in their libidos out the window. So that's one thing. Right. And, you know, and you also have a time where you're starting to get freed up from some of your other responsibilities. So that might be a positive. But what would you say in terms of just the more intimate side of a relationship? How does. How does someone navigate that through menopause, Especially with a woman feeling like the least sexy human on the planet at some points? Like, let's be real.

Right, Exactly. Well, listen, I think. I think that communication piece, I know we bang on about this all the time. But actually, the fact that we are speaking more about this stuff, even on this podcast, the fact that we talk about it all the time on ours, the fact that there is more understanding, thank goodness, of the menopause, what's going on. And actually, companies here in the UK are asking men like James, who's a menopause practitioner, to go in and talk to men, men about the menopause. So there are. There are some great shifts that are happening to help people understand, help men understand, help women understand what's going on for men. And corporate organizations here are quite open to that. But that communication even starting to even just say, you know, how was your day? How often do we even allow five minutes maybe in the morning, five. Five minutes in the evening to look our partner in the eyes? Like, we don't even. It's a crazy thing, but we don't actually even take the time to look at our partners in the eyes and just say, here's our five minutes. How was your day? Give them the airspace to answer. Actually use your listening skills without thinking of what you want to say. Let them speak to you and then reply. You know, ask that when that person's spoken, then say, and this is how my mind has gone. Like, actually just sitting there listening and communicating whilst looking in each other's eyes. That's even really uncomfortable for certain people. Honestly, it's craziness, isn't it? The eyes are the windows to the soul. And yet it's almost like we. We want to hide ourselves even in our relationships. But even doing that can massively improve. You know, at the end of the day, just sitting down for five minutes with a glass of wine or whatever, and just saying, how was your day? And actually listening and responding and giving your full attention. Not sitting there on your phone, not sitting there scrolling through social media with the TV on in the background, your undivided attention. That brings intimacy. Intimacy isn't just about a physical act that brings actual spiritual intimacy back into your marriage. And also when it comes to sex, sex isn't just about, like, intercourse either. It's about touch. So if that feels really uncomfortable for, for you right now, you know, start with that eye contact, start with that intimacy, and then move a little bit towards, okay, we're going to set this time aside and we're not gonna. We're not gonna have intercourse. We're just gonna touch. We're just gonna feel. We're just gonna see how that goes and, and see how, you know, comfortable we feel. Taking it in certain Direction. One of the other things I would say, and one of the things that we really are so honest and vulnerable about is James and I have been to marriage counsel hustling, and that has bought so because we've worked together non stop for eight years. We've had so many ups and downs, you know, outside our control. So many, you know, it's. It was really, really important for us to invest. You do. People do not invest enough in their relationships. This is me coming from two divorces before Jane. So I know what it, you know about that whole investing and not investing. But we need having. If you do work together sometimes that completely takes over your life. We've never had a time where we weren't working together. And we were both like, there is a third entity in this and it's called our relationship. And we are not spending enough time prioritizing and focusing on it. As soon as we made that decision to even go to see someone, it already changed because we could see in each other that we were very, very willing to invest in our marriage. And that even bought a sense of intimacy and having that other person to ask us questions. It was amazing. So there's lots of things that we can do there. I've kind of blurted lots of bits and pieces out there, but I do.

It was great blurting. You know, Tim and I worked together too. We didn't start that way. And in a way it's easier now that we're working together because he had a corporate job and he worked about four, four hours a day and I had two of my own companies and I worked about 100 hours a day. Right. And, and, and I tried to explain this to him as we, when we first met, I was like, you know, when you have your own businesses, you're always thinking about it. Like you're never not thinking about it. And now that he's on the same page as me, he like two in the morning, he'll wake up with something and I'm like, okay, I knew you were an entrepreneur, but it also strikes me that whether you're working together or not, you're still working together because you have like the place, you live together, you probably have kids together. And especially once the pandemic hit and we all ended up working, you know, I've always worked from home, but a lot of people now are working from home. Like all of that is now happening together. So how do you have people navigate it? I know one of the things we've made a rule about is, and we stick to it about 80% of the times, like do not talk about business in bed, do not do it. You know, every once in a while it pops up. But what are some of those guidelines that we can bring in?

Yeah, I think it's about, about two things. I think the first one, as Claire said, is recognizing a relationship isn't two people. There's the two people and there's the relationship itself. And you have to put energy and investment into the that. So first of all, be honest, like how much energy investment are you putting into the relationship itself? And that could look like going to therapy, counseling, like keeping things fresh, arranging date nights. I'd say the other thing that you need to do is know your boundaries in your relationship. So yeah, whether you're running a business together, running a household, whatever, you know, what, what are the non negotiables? When, when are you having, is it like, you know, 6pm Then we're off. We're not going to talk about work, we're not going to talk about the kids. This is our time, is it that we're not going to take our phones to the bedroom with us. All these things are really, really important. And then you can gently like pick each other up on it. When you're going, oh, you know, it's not about chastising other person but going oh hey, you know, remember we were saying no phones in bed. Do you want to put that away maybe? I think looking after a relationship as an entity in itself and having clear boundaries that you both respect are really key.

And also one of the things I learned with, with James is just to really acknowledge each other's differences actually. And I suppose that happens over time. But what I realize about James and myself, we're very, very different about how we decompress. Like how we, how, how we need to decompress is very, very different. I love to be on my own, but for long, for fairly long periods of time. I've just done like a 10 day retreat on my own. Completely. Like I didn't have anyone taking me through a retreat. I did a self guided retreat and I wasn't lonely. I absolutely had the most amazing time. That would be James's idea of hell, absolute hell. So actually understanding how, how we reconnect with what's your way, what's James's way of reconnecting with himself? What's important? How does he, how does he like to do his downtime? How do I like to do my downtime? And I think at the beginning because I felt really bad saying ta da I just want to leave you for days on end. I never. I didn't say that right at the beginning of our relationship. It's only been in the last few years. I felt really empowered to say that. So, yeah, it's about. No, really giving grace to the other person about how they manage their stress levels, how they need to decompress and all that kind of stuff.

Have you ever looked at Alison Armstrong's work?

No.

She. She has a. It's called PAX program. Celebrating Men. Satisfying Women was like her signature course, and they called it the, you know, men 101. But one of the things she talked about in that course was that a man would come home from work. This was back when people actually left the house to go places, to work. But in those, in the old days when that happened, the man would come back home and they had to have this transition time where they had to do whatever, flop on the couch, have a drink, do something. Whereas women would walk in the house and the house was the second job, and they didn't have any transition time, and there was no flopping on the couch. And I remember I was dating a guy and he came in from work and he sat down on the couch and I'm making dinner and I'm making the kids lunches for the next day, day. Now I've worked all day and run around with the kids who are, you know, in their, like, I don't know, 8 and 9. So did that. And I'm wiped, right? But I still have other work I have to get done. And I'm cleaning the kitchen. And meanwhile, I remember he looked up from the couch, he goes, I'd unload the dishwasher, but I don't know where they go. And I'm thinking, okay, you've been here for six months. This is not rocket science. You know, I was like, I'm like, I'm going to not come over and say stab you. Fortunately, I learned this from. I go, this. It's just a different need, you know, where, you know, where we. Where I don't have that need to go do this whole thing. I'm going to buzz around till I get all my stuff done. Otherwise it's going to create so much anxiety and stress that I couldn't possibly sit on the couch, right? So I think it's. Recognizing what we need is such a key thing. And then kind of knowing that some people need that transition time from when they're done working to, okay, now I'm shifting gears into. I'm relaxing now.

Well, I've got a funny story. I've got a funny story to tell. Because actually, it's been through the counseling. I think I knew this anyway, but it's been through our counseling where if I was emotional about something, you know, something was really bothering me, I'd just be like, right, I need to speak about it now. I guess we need to speak about it, like, right now.

Emptying that bucket.

Yes. Yeah. Let it all blow out. And poor James would look up. Because he was working at the time. I had absolutely no concept of where he was at at all. Laptop. Like a frightened bunny. Like a frightened rabbit. Like, oh, my goodness. I don't even know. I'm in the middle of something. I don't want to tell her to bugger off, but I don't. I just know. So he just would look blank. And then that wasn't satisfying to me either. So now I actually say to him, because it's about respecting the other person's time, I say to him, james, is it okay if I can talk to you right now? If it's not, just let me know when I can speak to you. And there's that. Yeah, there's that mutual respect, and I can hold it back and have a proper conversation.

I've learned how to hold it in for a moment, for two minutes.

You've got two minutes. We've also.

We've also learned, guys, that women just sometimes need to just dump the bucket. And you don't have to fix it. You just have to go, oh, wow, I am so sorry that happened. We don't want you to fix it. We just want you to know that it happened. And, yeah, you feel bad about it.

Too hardwired to give the solution. We're like, oh, you're giving me problems. I'll give you the solution. But, like, I'll fix it. Guys, women don't want the solution. I just want you to go, oh, okay.

Yeah.

Sincerely, though, yes.

Yeah. Yes. Because we can tell, especially if we're perimenopausal. We have extra spidey senses, and we're going to take you out. Otherwise. So I was on dating apps for years. I always laughed that my husband was on a dating app for, like, five seconds. Maybe. I think maybe he was on for a couple weeks, literally. And I was on for over a decade. And finally I realized towards the end of this dating app situation that I was approaching it all wrong, and I shifted my approach, and that's how. And then I had friends help me because I was also a Bad picker. And they found Tim. But what I would love to know from you is like dating app, what your thoughts are on dating apps. Because I never would have. Tim is my perfect human. Like he is the, my perfect partner and there's zero chance I ever would have met him. So what's your thoughts and on dating apps and then if you are a fan, like what would you, how would you.

Yeah, I'm probably the wrong person to ask. After my divorce, I went, I went. First of all, I couldn't believe it came very out of the blue for me. So my confidence was shot and I was just completely out, out of dating for months. But then I kind of dipped my toe in. Then I got very excited about it all. I got on all the apps, but it was terrible. I was living in Ibiza at the time, it's not a big island, but I got so lazy on it. You know, you'd like match with someone, they'd be like, come meet me in Ibiza, like 15 kilometers away. And you'd be like, you were lazy.

You were lazy.

Wow.

I'm old fashioned. I mean, I just like meeting people out, out and about. So I didn't have a great experience on dating apps. But you did like Internet dating and dating apps for a while?

Yes, I had. Good and bad. Here's the thing, I. We know lots and lots and lots of people. You know, clients have actually coached, you know, have gone on to, during our coaching time together, have had the courage to go on dating apps. I've looked over their profile and we've kind of considered it and we're like, yeah, that looks good. And then they've met amazing men and they're still dating those amazing men. So I've seen the success stories over and over again of dating apps. I think Bumble is a really popular one. That's one that's been quite successful because that's the one that women are in control of, who can like them and all that kind of stuff.

But yeah, I think you said something important there. You said, I looked over there, her profile. So, you know, I finally realized that my profile was my best. Like, you know, I'm in marketing, I'm like, I'm going to write a sales letter. So I find that, and I remember hearing this about men versus women in job interviews is that men will, you know, present themselves in a job interview as like the greatest thing ever and they'll ask for more money and they'll slow up their accomplishments and women will downplay and they'll Ask for less money and they'll do these things. And I have a feeling since some of that shows up in dating apps as well.

100%.

Yeah, I know it certainly does. In physical appearance, there was one dating app where it said, are you like, you know, athletic and toned? And you know, do you like, think of yourself as average, good looking, very good looking, or hot? And it's like every guy said they were hot. And I'm like going. And I'd meet guys who said they were athletic and toned and I'm like, best not athletic and tone. I'm sorry, have you done any physical activity in the last decade? It doesn't look like it.

This is the thing with the apps, right? You can, you can present Persona and have all like the, the touched up images, but don't forget you're gonna have to meet in real life.

Exactly.

I have to tell you this. I was doing a coaching call with a group of women this morning. We were talking about this exact thing about. It was actually about body confidence and body dysmorphia, actually. And women. It was around kind of like self love. And women are given pictures of all different shapes and sizes of pictures of women. So from, you know, like a size 6 all the way up to, you know, like a size 24. And the women are asked, like, where do you, what do you think your body is most like represented in these photos? And pretty much every single woman, this is a body, a body of research that's been done again, recently. Pretty much every woman pointed to two or three dress sizes bigger than they actually are. Men. They were exactly as they were. Or they said that they were hotter, that they were so slimmer and fitter and hotter. And then we were talking about how that translates into the working world. It does. It's kind of like, oh, you know, oh, I shouldn't ask for that. Oh, my experience doesn't really relate to that. So I won't say that I could do that job. Whereas men are just like, yeah, I can do it all and I want to be paid double what I'm being paid right now.

Exactly. So how would you. Because you said you looked at the profile, profile look good. What would you recommend? And I especially like to hear from, from James too, because you're a guy, you know, what would you recommend for someone listening who wants to go out and start doing some online dating? What would be appealing on it?

So I'd say do think, right? Do think about how you want to portray yourself, but don't portray a false version of yourself because you're going to get caught out. Right. So, yeah, you know, make sure your photos do look good, obviously, but you don't need to go and have a professional shoot and then have them touched up. That's just going to lead to trouble down the line. But make sure they look decent. I think. Be honest in your profile. Make sure you are sounding like someone would want to speak to you. I think the main thing is, in my experience, dating apps don't go in with hard and fast rules. Like, we know what we like, what we don't like. But I think so many times people have a checklist as they're going through someone and they're like, I think it's come so disposable dating. It's almost like, oh, well, there's two things on that checklist that don't sound right. So no, next one. Next one, you. You could be missing out on something. You know, when you meet that person, you might actually have more chemistry with them than it might appear from the app. So I'd say it's great to know what you want, but don't be too rigid on those checklists when you're looking for a partner.

So for the lady that actually, I've done it for two ladies looked at, I mean, it's not in my remit. I don't know how I ended up looking at people's profiles. It's very nice that they trusted me with it, but I think it was actually, it's about having someone that, you know. This is. Is a really, really good thing to do. Having someone that you know. I think this is why they chose me. They knew me in a working capacity. They knew me. I knew them deeply. You know, we've been coaching. I've been coaching them for a long time, but I'm not their friend at the same time. So show it to someone if you can, that knows you but doesn't almost like is going to be biased, Knows you too well and just go, oh, yeah, that's good.

A.

A great profile. Yeah. Of course they're gonna love you and not give you a real honest, you know, download of what they think should go on there or not. But if you can get someone to look at it and just say, you know, be vulnerable and say, is that a good representation of. Of the person that you think I am? Is there anything that I could change? I think having that outside influence is really handy. So for the two that I saw, I was like, you're not being. You're funny. You're a funny person, you've got a great sense of humor. Like, just add some little twinkles of that in there as well.

So.

And then they both started dating.

Nice.

Yeah.

All right, well, you guys have a Midlife Reset audit that you're going to be gifting to everybody, and I'm going to put it@jjvirgin.com midlife reset. What is it exactly?

So it's just a really short quiz, effectively, that you can take, and it's going to just highlight kind of where you are in your midlife and your understanding of your psychology, what your hormones are doing, how you should be nourishing your body, how you should be moving your body. So you'll get a personalized report at the end basically saying, okay, these are the areas where it's great. These are areas where maybe you could be doing some more work or looking for support. It's just a really useful tool for getting a snapshot where you are at midlife at the moment so that you.

Can then look at where you want to be.

Exactly.

My friend Mary Morphy says, what would you love? Because we get to design this, right?

Exactly.

We do.

Fantastic. Okay, so again, that'll be@jjburgin.com midlifereset and James and Claire, thank you so much for taking time out and hanging with me today. And hopefully we'll get to. To hang out in Spain.

Yeah, that would be great.

Let's do that.

Thank you so much, jj. It's been great.

It's been a real pleasure. Thanks for having us.

Be sure to join me next time for more tools, tips, and techniques you can incorporate into everyday life to ensure you look and feel great and are built to last. Check me out on Instagram, Facebook and my website website jjvirgin.com and make sure to follow my podcast@subscribetoj.com so you don't miss a single episode. And hey, if you're loving what you hear, don't forget to leave a review. Your reviews make a big difference in helping me reach more incredible women just like you to spread the word about aging powerfully after 40. Thanks for tuning in and I'll catch you on the next episode. Episode. Hey, JJ. Here. And just a reminder that the well Beyond 40 podcast offers health, wellness, fitness, and nutritional information that's designed for educational and entertainment purposes only. You should not rely on this information as a substitute for, nor does it replace professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. If you have any concerns or questions about your health, you should always consult with a physician or other healthcare professional make sure that you do not disregard, avoid or delay obtaining medical or health related advice from your healthcare professional because of something you may have heard on the show or read in our show notes. The use of any information provided on the show is solely at your own risk.

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