Overcoming Food Addiction with Dr. Susan Peirce Thompson

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Hey, it's jj. Welcome to the podcast. Today we are going to be talking to Dr. Susan Pierce Thompson. She is the founder and CEO of of Bright Line Eating and the president of the Institute for Sustainable Weight Loss and an adjunct associate professor of brain and cognitive sciences at the University of Rochester. And all I can tell you is you are about to be blown away, first of all, by her personal journey. You will never even guess what she. When she starts to tell you her personal journey, your. Your jaw is going to drop. You're gonna have to like, pick yourself up from the floor. But then how she turned this into what she's doing now, which is really taking people who are addicted to food. And you'll hear about how you can know where you are in that and turning that around, which just doesn't happen, which is one of the reasons we have such a high failure rate in diets. So I have been kind of after her for a while because I was like, I've got to have you on this podcast. She's got the New York Times bestselling book, Bright Line Eating, the Science of Living Happy, Thin and Free, and is dedicated to helping people achieve the health and vibrancy that accompany permanent weight loss. And was obese herself and has maintained her weight now for decades. So she truly, you know, is a unicorn in that she came from a very addictive place to go through this, which I'll let her tell you herself. And it is just fascinating and really great information and great strategies that will lay over whatever you're doing. So we have an incredible cheat sheet for you today from the podcast along with an amazing tool from her. She gives you her handout, her report on the three biggest mistakes that people make in weight loss. You'll be able to grab that@jjvirgin.com doctorsusan Dr. Susan. Now, before we dive in, a word about one of my favorites. All right, Susan, welcome to the show. I'm so glad you're here with me today.

Oh, thanks, jj. It's great to be Here with you.

Well, I love getting into this topic because it's so critical. You are so amazing on it, and something that we don't talk about very often. So what I'd really like to do, to kind of step into it and let people know more about you is find out, like, how did you get in to all of this? How did you really become this expert in the psychology of eating? What happened?

Oh, yeah, so by mistake, you know, I fell my way into it. So I. I just. Well, first, I just messed up my life as a teenager. I was a drug addict and learned the hard way through my teenage years that I have a very addictable brain. Oh. So, you know, and a lot of that, I do drugs to keep weight off or to manage my eating kind of, and, you know, other reasons to have fun and rebel and whatever it was that I was trying to do. But from 14 to 20, I just sank further and further into the drug world. Crystal meth, cocaine, crack cocaine. Dropped out of high school.

No, I remember this story. It's just crazy, you know?

Yeah. Prostitution. I mean, the whole nine are, like, really kind of destitute. And when I was 20, I was really lucky to get just pulled out of that world. I got clean and sober when I was 20, really, through. No, through no goodness of my own, sort of despite myself. And, you know, I took hold of recovery. I worked the 12 steps. But I got fat, like, really fast, and food addiction just took over. I mean, right where the crack left off, boom. Pints of ice cream were in there to fill the hole. And, you know, what was really noteworthy to me was how much harder food was to kick than drugs. I mean, I was addicted to some bad drugs and not minorly addicted, like, majorly addicted. And I couldn't, like, I couldn't control my cookie dough habit. Like, it was worse than my drug habit.

So don't you think in some ways it's a lot harder because, I mean, you can absolutely make a decision that you will not be anywhere near drugs. But it's not like we can just say, I'm never going to be near food again.

Yeah, it's. It's harder in that way. It's. So all the cues are around us. It's our. Our friends and family pushers. So that's. That makes it harder.

And.

And you have to eat. I mean, you don't have to. You have to eat to live. You don't have to eat donuts to live. But there is a sense of a slippery slope. Right? I mean, but what about agave and what about, you know, oat date bars and like, you know what I mean? Like, there's this slippery slope that the organic, gluten free, locally grown, you know, in my mind, if it's crack, it's crack. I don't care if it's organic, locally grown, gluten free and you know, like, if it's a cookie, it's a cookie. Exactly. Jinx, you owe me a Coke. So anyway, yeah, food is harder. Food is harder for sure. I've been addicted to just about everything on the planet, and food is the hardest. And so. But meanwhile, the other weird thing about food addiction is that you can kind of function on it. Like, not, not really well, but like, I mean, gosh, I got straight A's at UC Berkeley on food and, you know, graduated and spoke at the graduation ceremony and got into the top brain and cognitive sciences program in world and, you know, flew out to do that and finished my PhD and did a postdoc in psychology. And all the while I'm like studying, you know, how does a brain like mine go so far off the rails? You know, what is up with my brain? And I ended up being a tenured psychology professor teaching a college course on the psychology of eating. And, you know, a lot of it was out of my own fascination with what was up with my own, you know, my own self. And I did. I mean, okay, so I was overweight as a kid. I weighed more when I was 11 years old than I weigh now. And by my 20, by my mid to late 20s, I was obese. And you know, that was like, with heavy effort, I was obese. Like, heavy effort, running a marathon, trying everything to, you know, on body for life, fit for life.

Don't you think? Like, I know, I know. Doing this now for 35 plus years, this big fat lie out there is someone who's obese is sitting on the couch, you know, eating cupcakes. And what I found was they like, knew more about nutrition than most people ever would know.

Right, true.

They worked harder, they ate less, they worked harder. And like, so that's kind of what I've seen over the years.

Yeah, I think in a lot of ways that that's often true. It's, it can be very maddening. And it's, you know, it's one of the big blessings in my life is now those are the people I get to help. The ones for whom nothing else works.

Right. Well, it's a big blessing for all of them. I mean, I look at this, you know, no one would want this background on you, but, oh, my gosh, to have to be a PhD professor and brain and cognitive science is working in the psychology of eating after being a total, you know, drug addict and obese. Like, who better?

I. I think that's true, jj, because I think, like, if you don't know, if you haven't been there, you know, you just don't know, you know, if your brain isn't wired like, you know, roughly a third of the population has a brain like mine. That's just really. It's. It's susceptible to addiction. It really is. And if you're one of the two thirds of the population that just doesn't have a brain like that, you have all kinds of hypotheses about what people should do to get, you know, fit and slender and lean and all that. And it's like, yeah, you have no idea what you're talking about. Like, that might work for you. It doesn't work for someone with my kind of brain.

Yeah. Makes total sense. I actually have, like, you know, I can have ice cream in the freezer. I don't care. You know, I just. I don't have an addictive thing, and. But now I've seen it so much. But it'll never be the same as someone like you, you know, that's why I was, like, super excited to have you on the show. So I. I love this. This whole idea about the susceptibility scale. Let's, like, dive right into that. Is what is.

I mean, I was kind of just mentioning it, right? Like that one third of the people have. Of the population has a brain like mine. So here's what research shows. Research shows that addiction is not in the substance. We think it's in the substance. We talk about it, like, as if heroin is addictive to everyone that, you know, give anyone heroin for long enough, and they'll become addicted. And I tell you, no. Like you said, a lot of people home after back surgery with Vicodin pills, and they don't all become pill heads. You know, they get off it as soon as they can, as soon as the pain is manageable, you know, but some of them will become pill heads, right? So addiction. And some people can dabble with cigarettes. Some people can dabble with caffeine. Lots of people can drink alcohol sanely. And some people become alcoholic. So what research shows is that about a third of the population. This is true for humans. It's also true for rats. About a third of the population is susceptible to addiction. Highly susceptible A third of the population is kind of in between and a third of the population is just not susceptible. They're just not. And doesn't matter what the substance is. They just have no interest in using it to their detriment. So this susceptibility scale is my scale.

Like would someone, like, how would someone know? I mean, I kind of, I kind of listening could know where I fell, but where, like say my husband falls. But do you kind of just intuitively know or do you have an actual scale and you can help people figure this out? What do you do with this?

Totally, yeah. I have a quiz that people can take for sure and it tells them where they are on the food scale. Now what's interesting is that just because you have an addictable brain doesn't mean that your brain has developed an affinity for the cues for all kinds of addictions. Like me, actually. I can take or leave shopping. I can pretty much take or leave gambling. Everything else I've already developed like too much light up for the cues that lead me down that path. So all the rest of it, you know, alcohol, cigarettes, drugs, food, sex, cigarette, whatever, caffeine. So for food, the questions are around like cravings. When you eat, do you get satisfied or do you, are you left feeling kind of unsatisfied? Do you lose control of how or how much do you eat sometimes? Do you say you're going to have one piece of pizza and then you're eating your fourth, you know, and just saying, well, what the hell, I'll start again on Monday. Are you consumed by thoughts of what you've eaten or not eaten, Whether you're on your plan or off your plan, how much you've exercised, how many calories, pounds, miles, you know, are you obsessed with all that? Do you binge? Those are the kinds of questions that let you know how high you are on the food susceptibility scale. And we got just a simple five question quiz that, that walks people through that. And then once you know your score from 1 to 10, I'm a 10 plus plus plus I'd be a 45. If this not something you want to.

Be a 10 in, I would assume right?

It's, it's such a drag, JJ. It's the only perfect 10 that like is not really.

Going well. I do have a shoe issue, admittedly, however, this your book and your program though, like someone finds out there, I would assume, I would assume if you're a 6 or above, this is probably something that's showing up all over your life. There's clearly I'm looking at you now and you are amazing. This vibrant, healthy, fit woman. So there's clearly something. Clearly what you're doing is working, right?

Yeah, yeah. I've been, I've been in a right sized body for 14 years now, which, you know, coming from obesity, that puts me in the top 1/100 of 1% of successful weight loss maintainers. Like nobody does that. Nobody stays slender for over 10 years.

But yet now you're helping tens of thousands, probably hundreds of thousands of people do that. So you are truly a unicorn leading the unicorns.

Well, thank you jj. I appreciate that. And it's kind of true. Yeah. Bright line eating is a game changer and we do things very differently than other programs do because we're working with this subset of people that are higher on the susceptibility scale and need a different kind of approach.

Yeah, I love it. And it also, by the way, lays over all the other eating programs when you really think about it, because this is an approach and you know, if it's you and you've tried these things and you just can't get past it, that this is the perfect place to go. And then you'll be able to if say you wanted to eat plant based or Paleo or you can do that using tool.

Yeah, yeah. Any, any program that doesn't foresee to eat cookies pretty much will work. Yeah, Paleo is fine. Whole food plant based is fine. We've from all of those approaches in our under our fold. Yeah, totally.

So let's dig into willpower, because that's been one I've always been just I think is ridiculous. I mean if we had willpower, we wouldn't as a people group be here. You know, we weren't like hardwired to have willpower. Right. And you know, you mean if they.

Hadn'T slept with a guy in the tent next next door.

I mean, you know, found all the honey and heat and all of it. I mean, you know, willpower, it doesn't make sense. Sense to me and I think I often, you know, your trigger foods and then you stock your house with them and think you're going to be able to handle yourself. That's just mean. It's ridiculous. Don't bring the enemy into the house. So. But I still think we try to white knuckle our way through things and you have something that you talk about called the willpower gap. What is that?

Yeah, the willpower gap is exactly. That's the gap between what you're intending to follow through on and what you actually do. Right? And the willpower gap is created by just the way the brain is wired. The brain is not wired to produce a steady stream of willpower available to us on call at any moment. Like, all our languaging around willpower that we can marshal it, you know, that it's kind of there for us if we want something bad enough. It's just not true. It's just. It's just bs. That's not how the brain works. So willpower is this little. It's seated in this little. Little area of the brain called the anterior cingulate cortex. It's right behind the prefrontal cortex. And the challenge is that this little part of the brain is saddled with all kinds of responsibility. It's got to help us make decisions and regulate our emotions and regulate our task performance. And that might not sound like a lot, but let me just break that down for you. What that actually means, making decisions, that's like checking email. Are you going to respond now? Later? File it, reply all, delete it. What are you going to do with that email? Going through an email inbox is decision after decision after decision. Sitting in traffic, regulating your emotions, dealing with kids, regulating your emotions. Have a mean boss, regulating your emotions. You know, doing a presentation, entering attendance records into your Excel spreadsheet, All of that is regulating task performance. Being careful with that spreadsheet. Now, here's the thing. That part of the brain, it gives you about 15 minutes of good juice, and then it's shot. So imagine if your phone, JJ had 15 minutes of power. Like, where would you be in your life? Right? You're relying on this part of the brain for all kinds of things. And now you think that you're going to, like, wrap up the work week, check email, you know, make nice nice with the annoying co worker down the hall, pass by the vending machine and skip over it. Sit in traffic for 40 minutes and then arrive home and make yourself a salad. No. Like, you turn to your spouse and you're like, let's order pizza for dinner. It's Friday night. We deserve it. Right? And all of a sudden, you just fell into the willpower gap. Like, so the issue is that, is that getting your food right, getting your weight right, is about getting your food right. It's not about exercise. It's about your food. Let's be clear.

Yep. Let's let everybody hear that. And I'm so happy to have you hear that. When I first started out in this world, 30 plus years ago, I was a personal trainer, and people were coming to me. It was me and Body by Jake. Susan, that's, like, totally dating myself. We were the first two personal, and. And everyone's coming, going, I want to exercise to lose weight. I don't want to change my diet. And I was in grad school in exercise science, so I'm like, okay, well, within, like, a couple months, I'm like, this doesn't work. And it really clear to me that if you really want to shift your body composition, like, if you want to lose weight, you've got to start with diet. Now, if you don't want to be skinny fat, you've got to add the exercise in. But that's not the big needle mover. It's always diet.

It's diet. It's like, you know, somewhere between 80 and 98% is diet. It's just diet. If you want to be trim, if you want to be thin, you know, you want to fit into a size four, whatever size four suit, it's diet.

So.

And not to say that that needs to be everyone's goal, obviously, but just. Just saying, yeah, so. So if you want to get your food right, it's not about learning what to eat and what not to eat. Because what you said earlier is so true, jj.

Like, the people who.

Who are struggling the most with their weight, they know plenty about what to eat. They can tell you how many calories there are in half a cup of cottage cheese. Like, they know.

Yeah, it's.

It's. And it's. The issue is execution over the long term. Like, you know, eat this and don't eat that. We're pretty clear. Like, you give someone flashcards of, like, here's a food. Should you be eating it or not? Like, people. People score, like, 95% on that. Right? We know. Broccoli, yes. Donuts, no. Like, we get it. But the issue is implementation over the long term. With the willpower gap, in effect, you're basically screwed. Like, you're not going to ever be able to execute over the long term with the strategies most people are using, which are like, leave the house and have no idea what you're eating for the day, Making choices on the fly, thinking your willpower is going to show up and help you navigate that buffet at lunchtime. Like, good luck with that. It's not how it works. So there is a way around the willpower gap, but I think the first thing is just to just recognize that you've got it. And it's a big problem. The Willpower gap is going to be there for everybody. Whether you're high on the susceptibility scale or not. This is a problem for everybody.

Yeah, Yeah. I don't have, like, I don't have a sweet tooth. I can take or leave a lot of stuff. But I. But this is. This is an issue here, too. If I don't plan ahead and I get hungry, hey, you know, like, we're going to eat what's in front of us. That's just the bottom line, so.

Totally. Yeah. And our current environment's not very supportive of our healthy eating habits. Right.

Oh, well, that's. That's for. Darn, man. You think?

Totally.

Yeah. I always love moving into these, you know, staying. I stayed a lot of hotels and getting in there in those mini bars that are just insane.

God.

Yeah.

Taking up my fridge where I need to store my stuff out of here.

Try to put your avocado in there. And then they charge you for moving the coke.

They charge you. They do 25 bucks to vacate the mini bar so I can stash my vegetables. I know.

It drives me crazy. I literally, when I was on Dr. Food Phil, we decided to be super fun. We, you know, I was on for two years doing their weight loss challenge. And so what we decided to do one time because we were trying to look at, like, how do we create controversy because health stuff on TV can be a little boring. And so I said, I know we're going to go through all their room service bills. We won't tell them. And one gal literally like this. These are the things I heard. I ordered a piece of apple pie because I just wanted to look at it, and then I flushed it down the toilet, and I'm like, there's no one ever. Right. I believe that. And then the other gal, somehow she'd moved in, and there. There wasn't anything in the mini bar when she came into the room. They just. It had all been taken out, but yet they charged her for all of it. I'm like, huh, yeah.

That's funny. Yep.

Yeah. So, you know, these types of things are crazy triggers. Now I think about something I asked my community last year, and I said, okay, if you aren't where you want to be with your weight and your health, why not? And you will totally appreciate this answer. And I was kind of like, you know, I thought it was going to be, well, I can't get rid of my cheese. And it was. I don't feel worthy. Oh, yeah, yeah. So what. What do you have to say? To that. Dr. Susan.

Yeah. So here's the thing. The psychology around self worth and food is I think, the flip flop of what most people think it is. It's the, it's the reverse or the inverse or whatever so many people think. You know, it's not what you're eating, it's what's eating you. Right? Like it's, it's, you got to deal with the deep seated psychological issues and then you know you'll love yourself enough to take care of yourself the way you know you should. And I think it's, I think that's back ass words. I really do. What I think is going on is that the way our brains have been rewired to require us to eat crappy food. We haven't dived into this too much, but in, in just a couple sentences. The processed foods we're eating, sugar and flour primarily, are driving major processes like dopamine downregulation, which drives powerful cravings that you just can't. I mean, these again, worse than my cravings for crack when I was a crack addict. Worse cravings you can't say no to. And then the sugar on flour raises insulin, which blocks leptin and that's the hormone that tells you that you've had enough to eat. So your brain literally thinks you're starving. You have the biological markers of starvation on board. And, and so you're eating in this insatiable way. The kind of like I've had dinner, but now I'm sitting on the couch eating a bag of chips. Now the chips are gone. I'm going to check for ice cream in the freezer. That kind of insatiable hunger that doesn't, it's not real hunger. Like if you check your stomach, it's full. But the mouth and the brain are demanding more food. That's leptin resistance right there. That's where your brain is never going to be convinced that you've had enough food. These drivers are forcing you to eat in the same way. Your brain is so insistent that you need more food because of this rewiring, this hijacking that's happened. And I'm getting to the self worth piece, but I've got to lay this foundation first. So the issue is your brain is driving you to eat the same way it forces you to breathe. If you hold your breath like you try holding your breath for two minutes, you can't do it. Your brain will talk you into breathing, but if you listen closely to what it says when it talks you into breathing, it convinces you to breathe in your own voice. And this is the warped, weird thing about the way the brain works, is that parts of our brain that are very reptilian, biological, like really deep, they're ensuring our survival. They manipulate us, knowing us really well, as they do inside of us, inside our own head. They manipulate us in our own voice. Voice. And they spin a narrative that we will buy into. They manipulate us into eating. So this narrative of like, it's been a long week and, you know, so much has been going on, I totally deserve a break. I'm going out with friends. I need, you know, some nachos and some beer is just. It totally makes sense. It'd be cruel to deprive myself of that. I can totally start over on Monday. It'll be okay. Nobody's. What, blah, blah, blah. We watch ourselves succumb to help.

Right?

That narrative is not you. It sounds like you, but if you just pledged, you know, to yourself in your deepest, deepest, highest self soul in a contract of like, I'm getting it together this time. I'm losing this weight. I'm following this program now. It's eight days later. And you know, you're going out with friends and you're making this exception. You watch yourself do that. And jj, that's where the low self worth comes in. Because you betray yourself with food. That's what you think you're doing. You think you're betraying yourself. You're watching yourself treat yourself worse than you would treat your best friend. And over time, you come to the conclusion that you don't love yourself. You don't value yourself, you don't think much of yourself because you're watching how you treat yourself with food. But the issue is not that you don't value yourself. The issue is that your brain was hijacked in the first place. You were a sitting duck. There's no way. Just like you can't hold your breath for five minutes. I don't care how much you love yourself, you can't do it. So. So it's, it's. It's the reverse. Basically, you got to get your food straight and then your self worth fills up on its own. And this is what I teach people to do in my program. It's beautiful to watch their self esteem come back.

You know, it's. It's the, it's the almost the. You'll see it when you believe it. You'll believe it when you see it. It's the same type of thing here. Yeah, right.

Yeah, totally. Totally. Yeah.

So I'm going to throw a little curveball at you. And I. I know I could literally do this with you for hours. This is such key information, and we've never really talked about, believe it or not here. So I'm super excited to be introducing you to everyone on the podcast because wherever you are in your eating, this will help. Like, you know, even. Even me, who's probably on the lowest end of the susceptibility scale. There are. There are things in here. You're saying I'm like, huh. Yep. So I am super excited to share your book with everybody. And I know that you've got a really cool guide for everybody too, that we're going to be giving out. We're going to be giving a report out about the three huge mistakes you make. I think it's the three huge mistakes you make in weight loss is what you called it.

Yeah, totally. Yep.

So we're going to make that available in all of the show notes here. We are going to have all of this stuff@jj virgin.com forward slash Dr. Susan. Dr. Susan. But I want to throw just a little quickie curveball at you. Didn't tell you I was going to ask this, but what is the one thing you do every day, Susan, that you feel makes the biggest difference in your life?

Meditate, Without a doubt, 30 minutes of meditation every morning.

Yep. I just interviewed Layla Ali right before you. And same thing. And success always leads clues out there, but it does, you know, that is one my morning routine. And taking time to be mindful is so key in starting out your day. Right. Not letting things go sideways.

So, yeah, yeah, I gotta drop in. I mean, really, the guidance comes from within all of it, you know, And I gotta be in tune with what my deep, still small voice inside is trying to tell me. Like, all the magic happens in my meditation.

Well, you've done some such massive work and also been so open about everything that's happened to you. I know you shared everything in the mindshare at the mindshare Summit last year and just blew people away. But talk about using, you know, your biggest challenges to make a massive impact out in the world. It is so huge. And I just so dig your work and appreciate who you are.

Oh, thank you, jj. I appreciate you, too. Seriously. You create amazing community and I value that about you.

Well, thank you. And I just wanted to send big thank you out, let everyone know again. You can go to jjvirgin.com forward slash Dr. Susan. Dr. Susan. We're going to have all the show notes from today, some really great resources. And again, another resource from Dr. Susan about these three mistakes and what you can do about them. So make sure that you grab that. And thank you again for being here. And then after the break, I'll be listening or I'll be answering a listener's question. So stay with me.

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All righty. Welcome back. This is the time where I answer a listener's question. And today's question comes from Marie in Fountain Valley. She says, jj, I am perfect throughout the day. And then at night, my evil twin comes out. And the next thing you know, despite my best intentions, there I am in bed eating ice cream. What do I do? All right, Maria. Oh, it's Marie. Sorry. I am so glad that you wrote this question the way you wrote this question, because there's a couple things that I picked up on, and the first one is perfect. So what I want you to do, first of all, is use a food journal. Kaiser was very interesting. They did a study on successful weight loss, and they found that the biggest differentiator on success in a weight loss program was whether people journaled or not. People who journaled lost twice the weight to people who didn't. But I also helps things. I think what it helps us do is really see where there's challenges and pitfalls so that we don't have these things happen. I know for me that if I bring something into the house that is tempting to me, that I'm going to be fine during the day. But at night, will powers down. You're tired. You're looking for a little serotonin boost. Dr. Susan talked about your brain chemistry, and it's, you're setting yourself up for a fail there. It is nearly impossible to not head to the fridge late at night, grab what it is and get, you know, and eat it. So my big rule of thumb here is don't bring the enemy into the house. First. First of all, this is never about being perfect. It's about making the best choices under the situations you're in and planning ahead. You heard that from Susan. But also not setting yourself up, not putting yourself into a situation where you're almost assured to fail. And that is bringing the enemy into the house, bringing some that you know is a known trigger food for you, and then somehow thinking that you're going to be able to g just fine when your willpower, which we I think is non existent, is out. So that is my biggest advice, is don't bring trigger food into the house. Don't do it. Just keep it out. And if you say I've got to buy it for my family, I'm like, well, do you like your family? Like, no, you don't. When my kids were younger and they were at the house, what I did was, was I just. We occasionally would go out for a treat. We'd go out for a treat. They ate the good stuff first, they had dinner, and then occasionally we get out and get a small cold stone creamery. But it was the exception and it was seen as a treat and they learned how to put it into their life correctly. And it wasn't something sitting in the house because that is just impossible. It's too darn tempting. So make it easy on yourself. Be kind to yourself, Marie. All right, if you'd like to submit a question, just head over to my Facebook page at JJ Virgin official or at Instagram @jj virgin. We always check those out. We answer them. Of course. I respond a lot during Facebook Live. We answer them as we go. But I also love to find those ones that fit perfectly into whatever podcast I'm doing and answer them there too. So Marie, thank you for that question. And now the gratitude portion of the show. This is where we highlight the review of the week. We, the team, read each and every one of these reviews on itunes and, and honestly, we love these. This is, this is kind of like how we get the big pat on our back. And today's is from K I J o from the UK who says five stars. I love listening to JJ's podcasts. I came across them when looking for advice online as I was feeling a bit down and struggling to sleep. I'm really interested in health and fitness, so I love how knowledgeable JJ is and never condescending. Wow. How would someone be condescending on a podcast? That would be so silly. Sorry, that was my, my take in the middle, I interjected and I listened to the podcast before bed as well as listening as listing my gratitudes in my head and it helps me to sleep. Yay. I hope I don't put you to sleep, though. Please tell me I don't put you to sleep. Kijo. Thank you so much for that. And I want to remind you that if you'd like to leave a review which we love, love, love, love, love, pretty please, please, please do it. Head on over to itunes. And while you're there, since you're there leaving that review, subscribe so you don't miss any of these cool episodes. We have some of the most amazing guests and share it with your pals you care about. You know, share the wealth. All right, thank you.

Hello listeners. This is Anne Bogle, author, blogger, and creator of the podcast what Should I Read next? Since 2016, I've been helping readers bring more joy and delight into their reading lives. Every week, I take all things books and reading with a guest and guide them in discovering their next read. They share three books they love, one book they don't, and what they've been reading lately. And I recommend three titles they may enjoy reading next. Guests have said our conversations are like therapy, troubleshooting issues that have plagued their reading lives for years, and possibly the rest of their lives as well. And of course, recommending books that meet the moment. Whether they are looking for deep introspection to spur or encourage a life change or a frothy page turner to help them escape the stresses of work, school, everything, you'll learn something about yourself as a reader and you'll definitely walk away confident to choose your next read, with a whole list of new books and authors to try. So join us each Tuesday for what Should I Read Next? Subscribe now wherever you're listening to this podcast and Visit our website whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com to find out more.