The Dangers of Hidden Toxicity with Dr. Jill Carnahan

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Welcome to the JJ Virgin Lifestyle show with celebrity nutrition expert, Fitness hall of Famer and four time New York Times best selling author JJ Virgin. JJ is a warrior mom whose knowledge and expertise have helped change hundreds of thousands of lives with over 3.5 million podcast downloads and appearances on Dr. Phil, Dr. Oz, the Today Show, Rachael Ray, Larry King Love Whoa whoa whoa.

This show is about you, not about me. I want to help you find practical, real world ways to dial in your health and mindset so you can finally lose that weight and feel strong and energized. Stop settling for less than your personal best. It's time to find out how to look and feel better than ever. And I'll be right here with you the whole way. Welcome to the podcast. I got someone on today that literally I've been waiting for months and months and months. We had to reschedule. I was like oh my gosh. And I finally have Dr. Jill Carnahan on. I've known her for years. She is amazing and brilliant and we are going to be talking about hidden toxicity, how it's keeping you from losing weight but the bigger implications it has for your health. She's put together a great tip sheet for you too. You can get that@jjvirgin.com Dr. Jill Let.

Me tell you a little bit about Dr. Jill Carnahan.

She completed her residency at the University of Illinois Program in Family Medicine at Methodist Medical center and in 2006 she was voted by faculty to receive the Resident Teacher of the Year Award and elected the Central Illinois's 40 leaders under 40. She received her medical degree from Loyola University Stritch School of Medicine in Chicago and her Bachelor of Science degree in Bioengineering at the University of Illinois in Champaign, Urbana. She's duly board certified in Family Medicine and she is absolutely amazing in functional medicine. She's also certified in Integrative Holistic Medicine. She is one of the first hundred plus healthcare practitioners to be certified in functional medicine through IFM and following her residency, her vision for health and healing resulted in the creation of Methodist center for Integrated medicine in Peoria, Illinois where she served as a medical director for four years. And then 2010 she founded the Flatiron Functional Medicine Clinic in Boulder, Colorado. And she has a big waiting list at this point. I think her clinic's closed. She's got people flying in from all over the place because of what she does with the most complicated, challenging patients. Also has an incredible blog. I'll put a link to that in the show. Notes She's a great resource and a lot of that came from her own journey, which she's going to be sharing. She's a 17 year survivor of Breast cancer and Crohn's disease. She got breast cancer in medical school. That kind of changed, didn't really change her direction. Helped her really go deep into root cause and trying to figure out why people get sick and what you need to do with it. She's just an amazing, gracious, brilliant woman and I'm really excited to share her with you today. Before I dive into that though, I want to do a big shout out to Preston, 55, who said this is one of my go to podcasts for health and wellness. Five stars in Apple Podcast reviews says I love the JJ Virgin podcast. One of the very best and one of the ones I always follow. I started following JJ in 2011 and as my first exposure to functional health, wellness and a different approach to diet, JJ's courses and podcasts changed my life. They put me on a path to recovering my health and sparked a passion for wellness study and human optimization. The guests on our show are fascinating and the content is amazing. Thanks. Wow, you've been here from the beginning, Preston. Thank you. And diving in to leave a review which by the way we appreciate so much. You know, we sit here and I do some of these podcasts on my own, as you know, and then some with guests and you kind of like in a little hole, little dark cave doing these podcasts going, is anyone out there? So I so appreciate the reviews and I love to know what else you'd like to know more about. So if there's a topic you'd like to me dive into, deep in I know today after I did this, this interview with Jill, the first thing I was like when are we getting you back on? So there's someone you'd like me to interview? If there's topic you'd like me to talk about, be sure to jump on in, leave a review and then let me know in the review what you'd like more about. Dr. Jill Carnahan. I finally have you on the show, it's been, what, like six months of waiting? I am patient. I am patient when I decide I have to have someone on. So welcome. I'm so happ happy you're here.

Thank you so much for having me, jj.

And I know this will be worth the wait for everybody listening, because this is going to be an amazing, amazing interview. We are going to be talking about toxicity. We're going to talk about toxicity and weight. But first of all, how the heck did you get interested in all of this?

Oh, gosh. Well, I'm going to be brief because my story is long, but at 25 years old, I was diagnosed with breast cancer. And not in a million years would I have guessed that I would have such a deadly disease at that age. I was in the middle of medical school, and I really. I had always wanted to do wellness and try to find root cause of disease, but when I was faced with my own mortality, it took on a whole different level of meaning. And so I began to search for answers. As far as my question always has been with myself and now with my patients is why? And today, we're going to dive into the why behind some of the things that our patients struggle with and some of your listeners struggle with. But for me, realizing that I had breast cancer, the big issue was, why did I get this at 25? What is going on? And what were the preceding factors that led to this disease? So I dove really, really deep and looked at environmental toxicity. I grew up on a farm in central Illinois where there was lots of chemicals and some of the things we talk about today, I got the double whammy of having a really poor detoxification profile genetically. So I was basically born at a disadvantage of eliminating those toxins. And as we know, toxins can not only cause weight gain and fat, but they can also cause cancer and damage to DNA.

Yeah, the. The weight gain and the fat's kind of the least of the problems of what toxicity does for us. Really, Those are just the ones we don't. The cosmetic ones we can't stand, but they're. They're a sign of some really much worse things going on. So. Wow. So, okay, so you grew up on a farm. You had all this Texas city you had, and back then, this was, what, 17 years ago, they weren't really looking at genetic profiles to see if you were a good detoxifier.

Not at all. And I think we had drank from well water, so I think our well was probably contaminated. And if I look back and I'm really clear about my exposure. I actually believe I probably got exposure in utero from my mother while I was in the womb. And that's actually. We're now seeing cord blood levels of babies that are being born should have no exposure. And they're having testing of over 200 chemicals in the cord blood, which is mind blowing.

Yeah. And they don't have the detoxification system set up to deal with this. So it's just awful. All right. But, you know, out of. Out of the ashes, we all win, because you have been just an amazing pioneer in this field. So let's dive into toxins because you found out so much about it. And let's just get started with why is this a problem? I mean, we have these detoxification systems. Some are better than others. But why? Why is this such a huge problem?

Yeah. So people don't realize that we're swimming in toxic soup. So our air, the air we breathe, the water that we drink and bathe in, and then the food that we eat, our whole entire system is highly contaminated with chemicals and pesticides and plasticizers and endocrine disruptors, which is a fancy word for saying it messes with your hormones. And all of these things really affect us and we don't even know it. And I always think of the example. You know, I started functional medicine about 20 years ago, a little less. When people first came into the office, they might have had a thyroid disorder or menopausal hot flashes. Pretty simple, straightforward things that we looked at root cause and fixed them. And nowadays, gosh, I would die for a patient that simple. Everything that I get is way, way, way more complex. And there's so many different layers. And I really feel like the elephant in the room is this toxic load. Now, when we talk about toxic load, the real key there is it's about accumulation of different toxins in our system. And it's about the system's overwh. So our bodies are actually created to detoxify. Even those of us like me with poor genetic detoxification pathways, we still should be able to get rid of these chemicals. Our bodies are created to get rid of them. But what has happened is the overload, it's kind of overloaded our body's ability to get rid of them in a timely manner. So they start to accumulate. And that toxic load is really, like I said, the elephant in the room underlying so many chronic things. Not only weight gain and obesity, but cancer, neurodegenerative things like Parkinson's and Alzheimer's and Dementia and then autoimmunity, which is in a massive epidemic right now.

So I would assume, I mean, here's the thing. Like, we obviously don't ever want to get to a point where we have a high toxic load. How can you tell if you're starting to accumulate these toxins? How would one know?

Yeah, so, you know, it's really common symptoms like fatigue because our mitochondria, the things that make energy in every cell in our body, they start to get tired and they get worn down by this load. A lot of times, pain syndrome is muscle and joint pain. Gut is typically affected pretty dramatically. So people have constipation or diarrhea or gas or bloating or heartburn. We mentioned weight gain. Weight loss is possible, but weight gain is much more common. And then the skin is a detox organ. So patients may notice psoriasis or eczema or rashes or itching or changes in their skin. Even things like acne hormones are disrupted. So women may notice more PMS symptoms, more heavy painful periods or breast tenderness. Men may notice more symptoms of low testosterone, so lack of libido drive central weight gain around their middle, and development of man boobs. So they can have all these kinds of things that are from the disruption of their hormones.

And then you, you, you know, you think about this and, and everyone we know who hasn't been actively taking care of their health has some of these symptoms and they go to the doctor for a specific symptom and get something. They've got insulin resistance, so maybe they get metformin, but. But the problem wasn't that they were a metformin deficient person, obviously, or they're going through menopause or they're having, you know, poor estrogen detoxification. The big challenge I see here with all of this is that that most of the traditionally trained doctors out there aren't taught this and aren't taught to look at toxins as a cause for all of these different things.

Yes. And it's also, I mean, you have to know about it and then be aware and you see it everywhere. But typically, we don't have a lot of simple tests to test for toxic load. So just the history alone, when you ask someone if they're really sensitive to chemicals, say they go through the aisle at the grocery store where the detergents and things are, and they get a headache. That alone is a sign of chemical overload because we become very sensitive. It's like our capacity. I always think of the example of a bucket that Gets full and overflows. The water level goes to the top and overflows. That's when we have disease and symptoms. What we need in that bucket is margin. It doesn't matter if we have some toxins because we're all going to have toxic exposures to some extent. What matters is that we always maintain a margin so that our load doesn't overwhelm us and start to spill over the top again.

The best way right now for someone to really evaluate if they have a high load is much more just looking at the. At symptoms, I would assume. Because there's no one test that's going to look at all the different toxins without spending what I think it's like 10 grand to look at it. You know, it's like this insane amount they'll have the newscasters did. I'm like, well that's great. But you know, the average person's not going to go spend 10 grand and it's taking a snapshot. I mean granted this, these are storing up, but it's a snapshot in time. So that's the other side. So I would think a big part of this is understanding your genetic detoxification ability and then making sure you've got a lot of things in place to help you detoxify. Do you test all your patients to see how well they detoxify?

Yeah, so I, because I get these patients who've been everywhere and done everything and they want answers. I do a lot of testing and one thing I do, like you said, it's not necessarily for the average person with the financial burden and stuff, but there is urinary tests that can get, like you said, a snapshot in time of their toxic load of the different chemicals. And then mold, which we haven't even mentioned is another.

Oh yes, I know we're going to have to go there too.

But super toxic one and we can test the mycotoxins in the urine for that as well. There are also. So the problem is different toxins store in different tissues and a lot of the toxins are fat soluble. So they store in the fat, the adipose tissue. So it's hard to measure unless you take a fat biopsy and no one wants to do that. But I do typically test a screening, a few screening tests that aren't super expensive to kind of just determine again it's load. I don't actually have to determine every single toxin. I just have to know there's a high load. And the beautiful thing, and I'm sure we'll get to talk about it is a lot of the basic detox principles will work for almost all of the toxins. So if you know a few simple things that you can do and put into place, it doesn't really matter if you identify every single last toxin. It's just a matter of reducing the load.

So let's talk a little bit because you mentioned toxin storing in the fat and I've talked a lot on the podcast about toxic fat and, and this, I'd love to have you talk about it too because I just think it's something we can't hear enough about is the role of toxicity with weight gain. And even though said, okay, cancer, diabetes, these are bigger risks. Let's face it, if you've got excess body fat, this is a risk factor for cancer and some of these other things because of the toxins stored in the fat, right?

Yes. So I want to talk about three different categories and I'll, I'll be brief on each. But there is. And I'll just introduce them and then I'll go into the details on each one. The first one is just general fat soluble toxins that create a toxic load. And the principle here is dilution is the solution to pollution, which means if your body is toxic, it will naturally try to dilute that toxic load by creating more fat cells to dilute the toxic effect. So that's how you gain weight with a generalized toxic load. The second one is mold in particular, super toxin, very toxic. And it actually creates something called leptin resistance where it's like the trapdoors to the fat burning parts of the cells are shut, clamp shut, and you cannot burn fat and you cannot lose weight no matter how hard you try. Those patients, they may actually stop eating, which no one does for long term. But they couldn't lose weight if they, if even if they cut calories to 500 calories a day, it wouldn't work because of that leptin resistance. And then the third category we didn't touch on but internal toxins, there's something called endotoxemia or endotoxins, and these come from the gut and they're the bacterial coatings that are on all of our bacteria in our gut. And in the presence of a leaky gut, these bacterial coatings will cross over into the immune system, create an inflammatory response and lead to obesity as well. So those are just three of the really big ways that the toxins can create difficult weight loss, weight gain or obesity.

And then you've got the other side of it that I think we have to consider is if you do have toxins stored in your fat, then if you don't set about losing fat correctly, you could actually create a bigger problem for yourself. Right?

That is exactly right. And you and I have both seen those patients who lose 20, 30, even £50 and they get so sick. And the problem is if you aren't really, you almost have to do some detox work first because the fat loss will number one, it'll be very resistant. It's very hard to lose fat if you're tired, toxic and if you do, you'll get sick because again, because dilution is a solution to pollution, you've lost the delusional effect as you lose weight. So then all of a sudden you have a much more concentrated toxic load after the weight loss and people literally get very ill and they gain the weight right back.

Yeah, I really believe that, that. And if I was going to write all my books all over again, I'm actually reworking this whole roadmap that the very first place you must start is by putting detox strategies in place before you ever think about losing any body. So that as you start to free up the fat and free up the toxins, your body's able to get rid of them. To me that makes so much sense because we're all going to be releasing toxins. I mean just. And we just got to assume it at this point with so many toxins being released into the environment. So what are things that we can do to reduce our toxic load? What do we need to do?

Yeah, so what we have to do is, you know, 21 day, 30 day detoxes are amazing. I mean they do a lot of powerful work. I went to Switzerland and spent two weeks on a Liberty detox and one of the best experiences of my life. However, if you rely solely on a 21 detox day detox every year and that's it, you probably are missing the boat. You have to incorporate daily practices as well. And the things that I believe strongly in our infrared sauna is so powerful because the sweat is one of our best ways to release some of these fat soluble toxins like parabens and phthalates and PCBs and things. Binders are incredibly effective and there are so many different ones. I'll mention a few activated charcoal, bentonite, clay zeolite, citrus pectin, glycomanins and then there's some prescription binders for stronger issues like mold, but even just basic fiber like psyllium fiber and things can be a binder in your gut. And what happens is the liver goes through phase one, phase two, and throws out these toxic metabolites into the bile acids which are stored in the gallbladder. And those bile acids have to be released into the gut. And if they're eliminated through the stool, they go out of our body and we're done with them. We get rid of that toxic load. But there's a process called enterohepatic recirculation, which is a big word just for a miracle round that happens inside our gut where the toxins in the bile are reabsorbed. So if you're not actively doing some sort of binder to grab those toxins and pull them out through the bile in the stool, then you'll just reabsorb them and it will do no good at all. So I'm a huge fan of infrared sauna, of binders. Glutathione, which is something you can do IV or orally, liposomally, there's all kinds of forms. That's one of your master detoxifiers. And so often we will either give patients nutrients that are precursors of glutathione or glutathione itself. And then basic things like your. Your intake is really a big part of it. So I always say something super simple when I'm teaching physicians, and it's clean air, clean water, clean food. Now that sounds so simple, it's almost unbelievable. But clean air, 80% of our toxic load is from the air supply. So getting air filters in your home and workplace and making sure that you're getting clean air is absolutely critical. Clean water, drinking clean water, bathing in clean water, getting water filtration systems also really critical, because that's way more important than the food that we eat. And then finally, clean food. If you aren't eating clean food, you don't so huge. Right. You're laughing because we realize what a big problem it is.

Fortunately, I think most of the people listening to this show are big, clean food advocates. I see a big challenge in water because here we're drinking bottled water, but it's in plastic.

Yeah, exactly.

Talk a little bit about that because you know, that's not fixing the problem. Yeah.

So, yeah, we really need to get rid of the habit of plastic water bottles. I know sometimes when people are traveling that even now you can get those portable, refillable aluminum or other ceramic kinds of water bottles, but plastic, even the ones that are technically safe now with the less PCBs and things, the bisphenol A was a very toxic endocrine disruptor. So that was one of the things in water bottles that messes with your hormones, and they make, like, even baby bottles out of this. So how sad that our infants are out of these plastic. And of course, they go in these hot dishwashers releasing that stuff, and where.

They microwave them with formula. Then you just. Oh, my gosh.

So, yeah, getting rid of the plastic and even heating your foods, cooling your foods, you should not be using plastic in your kitchen at all. And if you cover foods, you can cover them with, like, some sort of a wrap that's not plastic or not aluminum. All of these things tend to be toxic. So clean water is huge, but you need to get it from a source that is not in a place. Plastic water bottle, bottom line.

Now, I'm going to bring one other thing up because we sort of. We sort of talked about. Then we went around it. But let's talk about mold and how someone would know if mold's an issue. Like what, what you do with someone moving into a house. How would they test? And then what do they do if mold is an issue?

Okay, I love that you talk about this, because this is another issue, probably even more than environmental toxicity.

I think this is the scariest thing going on, honestly. I remember listening to a lecture about mold and just. I mean, it is absolutely frightening.

It is. And so many people. So one of the things, like I said, obesity and autoimmune diseases are all triggered by mold. So a lot of people are walking around with sickness or neurodegenerative stuff like Parkinson's, dementia or Alzheimer's, and they have no idea. I think Dr. Dale Bredesen estimates that 30% or one in three of his Alzheimer's cases are from mold or environmental toxicity. Is that not like 1 in 3? So that affects the brain, too. But back to the toxic effects. So first of all, how would you know? Well, one of the things. History is key without any testing at all. And one of the things I ask about is how do you feel in the environment? And is anyone else in your environment also sick? So, for example, if there's a family in a home that has toxic mold, usually more than one of them will have some sort of symptoms. So that's a dead giveaway. The other dead giveaway is if they go on vacation or travel. Travel, and all of a sudden they feel like a million bucks and their stomach issues go away and their headaches go away and their joint pain goes away. Well, you know, there's something in their environment that's toxic. And then they'll notice it when they come back from vacation. Oh, I felt really bad when I came back again. So that's a big clue as far as your environment. And if you're not sure, you can actually, you know, take a trip away, go stay in a hotel and see if some of your symptoms start to abate. It may not be perfect, but if you get out of that environment, you will start feeling better. I'll tell you a perfect example. So I was in Houston teaching last weekend, and, you know, Houston had the big hurricane.

Yeah.

And I'm actually pretty sensitive to mold. I'm much more resilient than I used to be, so I can stay in places that have a little mold and I'm fine. But I woke up after teaching on Friday morning, and I had the most. I could barely get out of bed. I could barely get showered. And I'm a really optimistic, happy person. Like, I fortunately don't deal with depression, but now I know what it feels like to have that because I felt so, so unmotivated and exhausted and tired and sad. And then at noon, I got out for lunch. I finally got up, showered, got out for lunch. I felt perfectly normal. And I realized immediately, yeah, that hotel room was so toxic, and it was affecting my energy and my mood dramatically. So it's all the time. And people would never. They would just think, oh, I didn't sleep well. I'm tired. They wouldn't think about mold. Fortunately, I'm aware of it. So I knew immediately and I changed my rooms and I was fine the following night. But other times, you don't realize it's affecting you. And some people are kind of these chemically sensitive people. They kind of like, for me, I can sometimes get a little sinus pressure or tension. We talked about symptoms. Typically, people will have rashes, red, itchy eyes. They might have respiratory congestion, cough or breathing difficulties. The gut's usually affected, so they might have heartburn or stomach pain. Neurologically, people will have numbness, tingling, sharp shooting pains they call ice pick pains or headaches. And it can really affect the brain. So probably the number one thing we see is foggy thinking, like lack of concentration or focus or difficulty with problem solving. And one of the kind of unique things is word finding, so you'll substitute the wrong word for one that you're trying to say, like dog instead of cat. And these things are all common symptoms of mold in your environment.

Well, I've had the same situation with, like, EMFs, and I remember going to one conference where they did this crazy orange and blue lighting for the stage and I was like, I can't be in this room, I have to leave.

Well, don't you think as we get more and more like I'm a super studier of my own environment and my own health and I know you are as well. So because I want to optimize my performance and because of that, I think that those of us who are aware of it, it we're actually hyper aware and we can actually tell the more our patients become clean eaters and breathing clean air and drinking clean water and losing weight, the more they actually become sensitive when there is a problem in their environment.

Yes.

Which you might be listening, thinking, but I don't want to be sensitive. Yes you do. It's the difference between feeling low grade horrible all the time to feeling amazing and then being aware when there's a shift so you can get the heck out of there. So it's actually fantastic to be sensitive. So don't you know, I know over the years people said I don't want to be sensitive to foods. I go, yes you do. Yes you do. You know, then you'll know it worked or it didn't work for you. Now I know you've got a great freebie gift for everyone. Your tips to reduce your toxic load. And you'll be able to grab that@jjvirgin.com Dr. Jill I super appreciate that because I think the most important thing here is you can hear all this stuff and it can be scary when you first start to hear it. But once you really understand how to work with it, number one, to reduce your toxic load and then number two, to do things first to avoid the exposure wherever possible, obviously, but then things you can do on a daily basis. And I'm glad you brought that up because you know, a 21 day cleanse is great. That's 21 days. You've still got another what, 330, 35 or 31 out there or 34. So we've got to be doing things on a daily, daily basis. I love detoxes and cleanses because it makes you focus. Yes. And then I think you've got to take that information and, and put it into everyday life so that every day we're getting bombarded no matter how much we try not to. So every day we've got to be focusing. So I love that you put this together again. It's jjvirgin.com Dr. Jill and I just want to thank you so much for your time and I want to get you back on. In fact, I'd love to get you back on and really do a deep dive on mold. So hopefully it won't take six months. All right, thank you. Now, after the break, I'll be answering a listener's question, so stay with me.

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Welcome back. This is the time where I answer listeners question hey, if you are not hanging out yet with me on Facebook and Instagram, come join me. This is where I grab a lot of my questions. So on Instagram it's JJ Virgin on Facebook it's JJ Virgin official. I like to pop in there and do lives a couple times a week. And this one came from Jenny who said I'm thinking about doing a detox. Is this something good to do? And of course, it depends on the detox. And is it something good to do? I actually lead live detox cleanses with my community at least twice a year. And then I have one that you can jump in and do anytime on your own. But I think this is something that you should do a focused cleanse at least two times a year, probably every quarter with the intent when you do that cleanse to then take the habits that you get in that cleanse. And I'm going to talk about some of those right now and put them into your everyday life. The reason I like to do a focus cleanse a couple times a year is sometimes these things stick and sometimes they don't. So really important things that you want to do on a regular basis. I do a Epsom salts bath every single night, except when I'm traveling. It's kind of hard to travel with big hunks of Epsom salts, but every night I'm home, I take an Epsom salts bath. I have a sunlight and sauna. I'll put a link in the show notes for this. And I do this three times a week at least. I'm trying to do it is even more than that now. I'm in the process of moving right now, so I've got a little downtime. But fortunately my buddy, the Betty Rocker, has a sauna right down the street so I can pop into hers. But this is such a key thing to do because it's one of the few ways that you can start to release those toxins out of your fat. And that is one of the key things you want to think of with toxins is better out than in. Next is lots and lots of spring water. My buddy Dr. Dan Kalish, who I had on a podcast, said you should be drinking enough water so your urine is clear. If it's not clear, you haven't been drinking enough. So that's another key one. I love that Dr. Jill mentioned binders. I use fiber every single day in my smoothie and eat a lot of fiber. And then I also use my buddy Dr. Dr. Dave Brother Dave Asprey's activated charcoal. And we'll put a link in the show notes for that as well. And there's also a great one called Cyto. I think it's called Cyto Detox. My buddy Warren Phillips, Cyto Detox with Zeolite. I'll put a link in the show notes for that, too. So those are some great binders. You want to be doing a lot of fiber. You want to make sure that you are getting this out. Fiber is going to help give bulk to your stools and get them out. So lots of water, good binders, lots of deep green leafy vegetables, of course, super important as well. And these are just things you want to make sure that you're putting into place on a regular basis. So yes, I love cleanses if you happen to see one coming up. In my world, we generally do them the beginning of the year and in the fall, jump on in with us and do it all together. It's super fun to do in a group, but again, I like to do focus cleanses so that you take those good habits and you start to put them into your everyday life. So if I mentioned one. Oh, one other one. Dry brushing, using a dry brush to help improve your circulation and do some lymphatic drainage. If any of these ones I mentioned are not things you're doing on a regular basis right now, grab one of those and make the commitment right now to put that into your life. Alrighty, if you have not yet subscribed to the show, what the heck are you waiting for? Jump on over there, subscribe, and while you're there, leave a review so I can shout you out next time and I will see you next time.

That's all for this episode of the JJ Virgin Lifestyle show, which marks another step towards a healthier body and mind. Don't forget to rate, review and subscribe to the show and we'll talk to you next week.

Hello listeners, this is Anne Bogle, author, blogger and creator of the podcast what Should I Read next? Since 2016, I've been helping readers bring more joy and delight into their reading lives. Every week, I take all things books and reading with a guest and guide them in discovering their next read. They share three books they love, one book they don't, and what they've been reading lately. And I recommend three titles they may enjoy reading next. Guests have said our conversations are like therapy, troubleshooting issues that have plagued their reading lives for years, and possibly the rest of their lives as well. And of course, recommending books that meet the moment. Whether they are looking for deep introspection to spur or encourage a life change, or a frothy page turner to help them escape the stresses of work, school, everything, you'll learn something about yourself as a reader and you'll definitely walk away confident to choose your next read with a whole list of new books and authors to trust. So join us each Tuesday for what should I read next? Subscribe now, wherever you're listening to this podcast and Visit our website, whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com to find out more.