The End of Anxiety with Joan Rosenberg

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Hey, it's JJ Virgin and welcome to the JJ Virgin Lifestyle show where I talk nutrition, exercise, mindset and lifestyle with some of the coolest people in the world. Plus I give you tips that you can put into fast action to up level your health so that you can go out there and live the big life you're meant to live. Now today's show is about emotional strength and emotional mastery and the woman I have on to talk to you about it is super near and dear to me because when my son Grant was in the hospital in a coma and then in the hospital for four and a half months, Dr. Joan Rosenberg was one of those people who showed up and I didn't even really know her that well. I'd put an SOS out to my whole community and there she was and she was just so calming and so helpful during that time and you know, going through some stuff with her today. She's a member of one of my groups and she's shared with me this concept that we're going to share with you today that has been so powerful for me because I got to a point in my life after Grant's accident where the technique I'd used for years of dealing with things which is put them all away in a closet and lock the door, was no longer working. And I don't know if it was post Traumatic stress disorder or just a pile up of too much emotion tucked away, but I just got to a point of really not being able to feel anymore. So I'm using a technique she's going to share with you today that just takes 90 seconds and I'm super excited to share that with you. So let me tell you a little bit about Dr. Jones. She's a best selling author, consultant, media host and master clinician and she is a cutting edge psychologist who is known as an innovative thinker and acclaimed speaker and trainer. She's a member of the association of Transformational Leaders and she hosts the Mindstream podcast Awesome Podcast, by the way, which is an impactful, practical and thought provoking itunes podcast. She's the author of the number one Amazon bestseller, ease your anxiety, how to gain confidence, emotional strength and inner peace. Oh, I cannot wait for you to hear what she has to say on anxiety. You've never heard this before, especially not from a psychologist. And her book coming up, 90 seconds to a life you love. She's also done a ton of great articles. She's a popular blogger and then co author of Mean Girls, Meaner, Understanding why Women Backstab, Betray and Trash Talk each Other and how to Heal. She's also been featured in a bunch of documentaries including I am pursuing Happiness and the hidden epidemic with Dr. Daniel Amen. She's been on CNN's American Morning, the OWN Network, and PBS, and she's appeared on a ton of TV and radio interviews all over the place. Plus she works a bunch with Bo Eason and John Asraf. She's just awesome. She's all over. She's someone. When I first met her, I was immediately drawn towards her because she's just got such this presence about her. She's an Air Force veteran too. I didn't even know that about her. And she is currently the professor of graduate psychology at Pepperdine University. So I am excited to have her on the show today. All right, so let's do it. Dr. Joan Rosenberg, welcome to the show. I am so glad you're here with me today.

I'm excited to be here, J.J. so.

Let'S dive in, because this is a term most people would never think of, and it is this idea of emotional mastery. What the heck is it, Joan?

It actually has a lot of different elements to it. Think of it as being responsive in situations as opposed to being. Being reactive. So rather than losing your temper, you'll be able to keep your cool in stressful situations and you won't get so flooded that you withdraw and isolate and pull back from others. That's one way to think about it. You can also think about it as being kind of having a calm or peaceful inner state, or that you're able to be resilient and persevere through frustration and embarrassment and mistakes and all that sort of stuff.

Well, who doesn't want all of that?

We all want some of that.

Okay, and what about emotional strength? How do you get some of that, you know, emotional.

I think emotional strength is really confusing to people, and I think of it as having two different aspects. One is this idea of feeling and believing that you're capable in the world. Except what I've realized is that a person does not feel capable in the world until they can handle their unpleasant feeling states. So you got to be able to handle, like, the upsets and the frustrations and the things that make you angry or sad to actually be able to feel capable of pursuing things. That's one element of emotional strength. The second has to do with being resourceful. And so it's not one or it's not one or both of these. It's. I mean, it's not one or the other. It's both. And being resourceful has to do with being able to handle being dependent and independent. Most people think of asking for help as a weakness, but being resourceful means that you actually feel okay about experiencing need or recognizing your own limitations, and then that means you can ask for help. And then asking for help falls into being emotionally strong.

Really? Yeah. Wow. You know my story, and I know some of the community does, and they'll hear a lot more about it, but when my son was hit by the car, you were one of the people who came and hung out with me, and I had sent out the big sos for help. And that was the first time I've ever really asked for help in my life, because I always saw it as this weakness. But when your son's, you know, on his deathbed, like, you don't care.

Exactly.

You get over a lot of stuff pretty quick. But I still admit that, up until you just said that, I didn't really see it as a sign of strength.

You know, again, I think we're put in situations in life where if we're super independent, then we get bonked on the head to have an experience that makes us deal with our experience of dependence. And the same is true going the other direction. If we're really dependent, then we're put in situations that we have to learn independence. So in life, I think it's both. And that part of it is acknowledging our own needs and limitations. And then if we can do that, then we can ask for help. But all of this is under strength. Hmm.

That is so fascinating. Well, that helps me because I've really been focusing on staying in that more. It's not. I don't naturally go into the dependent ask for help state. And I'm sure we kind of naturally have one side or the other. And the key really is to be able to do both. One of the things that I hear a lot in my community, of course, is that they get started on A program either to lose weight or have better health. And then something happens and they go off. And what is that? That happens. Like what gets in the way of people going out there and whether that dream or goal is to lose weight or have a bigger career, find their life partner, what the heck is going on there that's getting in the way of people going after that?

You know, I think of four different elements to tackle when I'm working with somebody. And you know, I'm a people know I'm a psychologist. And the first has to do with what people think. So some people think they expect the worst or they're only looking for the bad things to happen, or they're lost in a lot of negative self talk, like I'm so stupid or I'm so dumb. So I'm listening first of all to what people are thinking. So that's one area that people can change is what they think. A second is how they think it. And that's again, a little bit unique because it's actually patterns of thinking. So if I'm always looking for the bad, then that's a pattern and that's getting in my way and I have to at least consider the possibility that things can turn out well as a way to kind of push back against that pattern of thinking. The third that I look for is how people experience and express their feelings. So a lot, again, this gets us back to unpleasant feelings. And so much of my work is centered around helping people handle their unpleasant feelings. So again, that's a core area that will make a difference for people is to, is to be able to handle anger, to handle the frustration. So if they're, if they fall down in pursuing the goal, they get right back up and they understand that the feelings are temporary, that they're not permanent. And then the last is the actions people are taking. So people are either going to act or they're not going to act. They're going to take. So that's another area that people can tackle. So there's really four big areas that I look at when I'm looking at something getting in the way of somebody moving towards goal as opposed to pulling back from it.

But I look at, you know, most of us are going to do whatever we can to avoid, you know, feeling bad. Right. Or feeling we're not going to lean into that at all. Oh, but yes.

That'S true. Most of us want to avoid the unpleasant.

Right? Yeah. I put, I always say, and you know, this, you know, it's like I took all of those I put them in the closet and shut the door. It's like, why not just do it that way, Joan?

Exactly. And people took. Went beyond the door and put it in multiple boxes within boxes within boxes.

Yeah.

It will never get out. It's fine. It's over there.

Yeah.

The hard part about that is actually that that really not only does it decrease our own sense of aliveness and vitality, what it also does is we don't actually. It dampens our experience of good feelings as well. So it's super important to be able to handle unpleasant feelings and not avoid them. And the real key or trick to this one is that we actually know what our unpleasant feelings are by the bodily sensations that we experience. So if you stop and think about it, if you feel sad, maybe there's like a heaviness in the chest or I've had people who've gotten angry and they'll experience heat at the back of their neck or heat in their arms or again, some people discuss anxiety, and they often talk about butterflies in the stomach. So we actually know what we're feeling by bodily sensations. And, jj, what I figured out is that it's the bodily sensations that people really don't want to feel that lets them know what they're feeling. It's actually, I think people, if they knew that it was okay to. To just feel unpleasant feelings, they want to do it. What they don't want to do is experience the bodily sensation that lets them know what they're feeling.

Well, I mean, when you look at it, too, like, there's all these medications all set up now so that we won't ever feel any of it. Like, that's going to fix it. Isn't that, like. As you're talking about this, I'm thinking, how crazy are so many of these things out there that are taught to, like that we're using a pill to help with our. Now, I'm not talking about someone who's suicidal, but I mean, like, you know, everyday anxiety or depression or like, that. We're not letting ourselves roll through that. Right, right.

That's true. It's numbing it. And it's actually what I call helping people try not to know what they know as opposed to knowing what they know.

Oh, that's a good one.

Well, that's that whole avoid thing, and that's really our one choice in life. We're either going to stay present, aware, and in touch with what we know and what we feel, or we're gonna try to avoid it. And that's really our first choice.

Well, and I had to learn firsthand that you actually can't just put that all in a box in the closet and it goes away. It doesn't actually work.

So.

Yeah, you won't feel that, but you actually don't feel anything. So there's no bad stuff, but there's no good stuff. So there's just kind of a flatliner.

Which is absolutely true.

Which is, unfortunately, the way a lot of those medications do, too. You know, we live color. It's kind of a gray. So very sad. Now I know that, you know, it's for so many of us, hey, we have fear and we have anxiety, and it just becomes this thing that just has a grip on us, that holds us back. So, you know, what do you do about that, Joan?

Well, again, same thing. Interestingly enough, as much as I know that anxiety exists, I don't really believe in it, so.

Really?

Yeah, really. So what psychologist is going to be goofy enough to say that? I actually think of anxiety as unexperienced and unexpressed feeling. You gotta stop and think about that. So, again, think about. If I ask people to think about what. Think about what they're experiencing. If I took all the words that related to anxiety away from them, they start to come up with other feelings, like sadness, like anger, like disappointment, maybe embarrassment. And rather than be in touch with those feelings, they just describe it as anxiety.

So it's just anxiety is the response?

Yeah, well, you could look at it that way, but it's like the avoidance response.

But it's not the feeling, it's not the response. It's just that you're not letting. You're not going to the. Like, in functional medicine, we all want to get to the root cause. All right, so I'm looking at this. Okay.

You know, what's the cause, then? I would call the root cause kind of unexperienced and unexpressed feeling. And I think it's misused so much that if we step back from it, you could also, when somebody says, I'm really anxious about something, they're actually feeling vulnerable about something.

Okay, so if someone's feeling vulnerable about something or angry or scared, then what do you do about that?

Then they have to stay present to whatever's going on. Because when they're able to, what I call kind of riding the wave of feelings, then they're actually able to tolerate what's going on. And the beauty of it is when they can stay present to what the feeling is, then they often insights come and when you cut away or push away a void feeling, then you don't get the insight that comes when you stay present to what's going on. So what I want people to do is to learn how to ride waves of feelings.

Well, what does that look like? Because that sounds awful to me.

Oh, but it's not.

I'm going to play devil's advocate over here and go, well, who wants to ride that awful feeling of that thing?

Well, again, so let's come back to the idea that you know your feelings by bodily sensation, right? And think about it. We never talk about feelings coming down. We only talk about feelings coming up. So the body actually does inform what our mind knows or what our brain learns. And so you've walked along the ocean shore, and if you've ever. So as listeners, listen to this part of it. You walk along the ocean shore and you watch the waves come up. They can be of varying intensity. They can be moderate, they can be super strong, they can be calm. But if you look at the shoreline, it looks like the wave just lingers for a moment and then it subsides. And the same is true for our feelings. Again, bodily sensation, they come up with varying intensity. They linger. Sometimes they feel like they linger for minutes or hours or something. They really don't. The way the bodily sensation lingers when a feeling is experienced in the body lasts roughly 90 seconds.

You say this, and when you told me this the first time, I thought, and I think it actually took a couple times for you saying it, for me to hear it, I went, this is the most powerful thing ever. Because I look at our entire society and we've done everything possible to not lean into the wave, to not ride the wave, to medicate ourselves, numb ourselves, run away from it, whatever it is, to avoid the feeling. And when you explain it this way, it's like 90 seconds versus this low grade. Ugh, you know, 90 seconds and you're done. And I'm sure it's just like surfing. The more you ride the waves, the better you get at it, because no big deal. And you can ride a bigger wave and it's no big deal, right?

Absolutely. And the thing that I want to stress here is that it's not necessarily just one wave. Think of any given wave as roughly 90 seconds. And you may have multiple waves. So it's one or more waves of unpleasant feelings, but each one of those is not going to last more than roughly 90 seconds. And it's something that you make the choice to lean into every moment that you're aware of it across the rest of your life.

And what's the payoff if you do?

The payoff is insight. The payoff is emotional strength. The payoff is confidence. It's perseverance, it's resilience. And I could go on and on. It's self esteem, ultimately the ability to handle unpleasant feelings. And which is again, the core of my work is centered around the ability to do that leads to all these other phenomenal possibilities which you don't get access to until you can lean into it.

90 seconds.

90 seconds.

Alrighty. So we are up against the clock. I just, I love this whole 92nd thing. And again, having gone through the avoidance technique, I can really confirm that that does not work. So this has been a flip for me of like, okay, like, you know, feel that. It's that whole feel the fear. Right. Feel it. I've just been feeling it. And I was someone who went through chronic shortness of breath and kind of was getting into a flatline state. So I so appreciate it and I'm thrilled that I'm able to share you with the audience. And for everybody now wants to go deeper. Where should they go, Joan? Where do they get more information from you?

Two primary places. One is drjoanrosenberg.com and they can get a free download there of how to handle your worry about what others think of you. And then the Mindstream podcast, which is a second place that they can go for a lot of my work.

Oh yeah, grab the Mindstream podcast. I'm so glad you are doing that and thank you so much for joining me today. Now, after the break, I'm going to be answering a listener's question, so stay with me.

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Welcome back. This is the time where I answer a listener's question. And today's question comes from Karen in Austin. I actually hear this one a lot and here it is. She says, JJ I'm on your program and I'm having a challenge with my spouse because he is complaining about the meals that I'm cooking and every Saturday night he likes to go out to ice cream and he is upset if I won't eat it. What do I do? I hear a lot about, hey, I have to cook for my family, I have to go to parties. What do I do? So here's the first part of it. There's two different ways you can go with this. The first way is to involve them and let them know why you're doing it and what's in it for them, right? Mommy's gonna have more energy or daddy's gonna have more energy, better focus, better moods, or I'm doing this because of my health and I need your help. Enlist their support. I find especially, you know, like me, I have a 19 and 20 year old son. They always want to help. So enlist their help as to what they need to do to help you. Now, that's one side of it. The other side of it is to say nothing. And one of the things you'll find is, especially with Karen because she had a longer letter that I read initially, is you can make the food that they're used to in a healthy fashion, like just make steak and vegetables and if they like, are used to always having pasta, have a side dish of pasta for them and don't eat it yourself. You know, if they like chicken with barbecue sauce, make chicken and put barbecue sauce in theirs and not yours. So it's simple enough to make healthy stuff and just modify theirs a little bit if there's something specifically they want. So it won't hurt you. But the bigger conversation is them wanting you to go out to ice cream and eat it too, otherwise they're upset. And that's where you do need to enlist their help and explain that for the next couple of weeks you need to do this. Give them the reasons why it's so important and how much you need their help and then enlist them to help you. And I found that when you ask for help, and again, we just talked about this, you know, asking for help is a sign of strength, not weakness. You will find that it can, it can really just change things around. Now, if you'd like to submit a question, just go to jjvirgin.com ask and you can leave a voicemail for me. I can't wait to hear from you. And one more way, I'd love to hear from you. I would so appreciate it if you could jump on Stitcher. Or itunes and leave a review for me. It helps a bunch and be sure to subscribe and share the show with your friends. This is JJ Virgin signing off and reminding you that you are worthy. Dare to live a life that matters.

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