The Hidden Link Between Stress, Gut Health, and Your Nervous System with Dr. Will Cole

Hey, J.J. here. Can you believe how fast the holidays are knocking at the door this year? One minute it's pumpkin spice season, the next you're getting your guest room ready and wondering where their wrapping paper went. And that's when I turned to Wayfair. From bedding and towels to holiday decor and last minute stocking stuffers, Wayfair has everything you need to get your home and holidays together fast. And for way less. With Wayfair, I know I can refresh my guest room in no time. Maybe I'll add a soft new comforter or a few holiday throw pillows. With Wayfair, it's so easy and everything arrives super fast. Plus, there's free shipping for any order over $35 easy and total peace of mind. So whether you're hosting, gifting, or just adding those final festive touches, Wayfair has your back. And when the holidays wind down, Wayfair has everything you need to tuck it all neatly away. Smart storage solutions for every room from the kitchen to the closet. Get organized, refreshed and ready for the holidays. For way less head to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home. Wayfair Every style, every home. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I R.com hey, it's JJ here. You know, I've been talking about environmental toxins forever, and laundry detergent is a sneaky one. A lot of them contain harsh chemicals like dyes, preservatives, and even UV brighteners. Those brighteners don't actually clean anything. They just coat fabric so your eyes think things look whiter or brighter. That's more chemicals I don't want on my family's sheets or skin. And if you've got sensitive skin or allergies around the house, this can be a big problem. That's what got my attention about Earth Breeze. It looks like a dryer sheet, but it's actually laundry detergent. You toss one in the washer and that's it. No pouring, no mess, and no heavy plastic jug. Their packaging is lightweight cardboard, which helps reduce plastic waste. And if you choose the fragrance free option, it's gentle, hypoallergenic, non irritating and non sensitizing. I really like how simple it is and how fresh and clean everything comes out without those unnecessary chemicals. Right now you can try Earth Breeze for up to 40% off with free gifts@earthbreeze.com virgin that's earthbreeze.com virgin for up to 40% off plus free gifts on your first order. Close your eyes, exhale, feel your body relax and let go of whatever you're carrying today. Well, I'm letting go of the worry that I wouldn't get my new contacts in time for this class. I got them delivered free from 1-800-contacts. Oh my gosh, they're so fast.

And breathe.

Sorry.

I almost couldn't breathe when I saw the discount they gave me on my first order. Oh, sorry. Namaste.

Visit 1-800-contacts.com today to save on your first order.

1-800-Contacts.

I'm JJ Virgin, PhD dropout. Sorry, mom turned four time New York Times best selling author. I'm a certified nutrition specialist, fitness hall.

Of famer, and I speak at health.

Conferences and trainings around the globe. But I'm driven most of all by my insatiable curiosity and love of science to keep asking questions, digging for answers, and sharing the information that I uncover with as many people as I can. And that's where you come in. That's why I created the well Beyond 40 podcast to synthesize and simplify the science of health and into actionable strategies.

To help you thrive.

In each episode, we'll talk about what's working in the world of wellness, from personalized nutrition and healing your metabolism to powerful aging and prescriptive fitness. Join me on the journey to better health so you can love how you look and feel right now and have the energy to play full out at 100. Don't miss an episode. Subscribe now at subscribe subscribetoj.com to start unlocking your healthiest, most energetic self. Want to listen to the show ad free? Head over to subscribetoj.com and start your ad free experience today. Welcome back to well beyond 40. Today's episode is going to challenge the way you think about food, health and what's really in the products that we trust. Well, maybe not trust much anymore. We're sitting down today with Dr. Will Cole, a leading functional medicine expert and someone I have deep respect for. He's been on the front lines of the health revolution, advocating for cleaner food, better nutrition, and a more conscious approach to wellness. Dr. Will just got back from taking on Kellogg's over artificial food dyes, which have been banned in other countries, but strangely enough, they're still being pushed on our kids here in the US I.

Said that a little facetiously, I admit it.

So he's gonna be in studio with me and he's gonna pull back the curtain on what's really happening in the food industry and why it matters. For your hormones, your brain health, and your overall vitality and longevity. We're also gonna dive into how stress and emotional health impact gut health, the dangers of ultra processed foods, and why setting boundaries might just be the best medicine for your nervous system. I will tell you that when I think of Dr. Will Cole, I think of Jomo and you're going to hear.

Why and what that is in this episode.

Plus, we're unpacking the shocking truth about food policies in the US Why thousands of additives are approved here but banned in other countries, how the SNAP program is fueling chronic disease, and why the health of our most vulnerable communities is at risk. And if you've ever wondered why big food execs won't even feed their kids the products they sell, you're about to find out. So get ready for an eye opening conversation that might just change the way you look at what's on your plate. Let's get started. Hey jj, Virgin here. Okay, real talk. So often the holidays sneak up on me, travel, gifts, hosting, you know, all the things and suddenly it's like, wait, who spent what and where? And I know I'm not the only one who's looked at a bill in January and thought, wow, that escalated quickly. If you want to keep your finances under control this holiday season, you need to be using Monarch. It's rated the Wall Street Journal's best budgeting app of 2025. Monarch is the all in one personal finance tool that brings your entire financial life together in one clean interface on your laptop or on your phone. Monarch lets you link everything and gives you real time visibility so you're not shocked later. Right now, I've been checking the holiday spending category so I don't accidentally start the new year with that dreaded debt hangover. And honestly, just seeing everything laid out is already helping me stay more aware. This season, Monarch does the heavy lifting. It links your accounts in minutes, gives you smart categorization and super clear visuals. Yes, that end of your reset could be a real goal this time. Don't let financial opportunities slip through the cracks. Use the code virginonarch.com in your browser for half off your first year. That's 50% off your first year@monarch.com with the code Virgin Ray Ban.

Meta glasses come with open ear audio.

So you can listen to your favorite music without blocking out the world around you.

Hey Meta, play Gorgeous.

Here's Gorgeous by Doja Cat.

You can also ask Meta AI questions.

Hey Meta, when's Doja Cat's next concert?

Doja Cat is playing at the Los.

Angeles theater next Tuesday.

Sweet Ray Ban Meta glasses available at Ray Ban stores and other authorized retailers.

Dr. Will Cole, I could not be.

Happier to be sitting here with you.

Thank you so much. Thanks for joining me. And like, coming out when I was in town.

I know.

Well, I actually changed a bunch of things because I'm like, will Cole is in my neighborhood. I'm here.

Thank you so much. It means a lot. Thank you.

Well, especially since you just came back from Washington, D.C. you went to the MAHA inaugural ball. So you got five hours of sleep last night. Because I was like, going, oh, my gosh. But you were at the MAHA inaugural ball. You just came back from D.C. you were in D.C. just a little while ago, too.

Yeah.

Which I'd love to talk about because you were there taking on Kellogg's.

Yeah, well, we actually flew out to kept for Kellogg. We flew out to Battle Creek, Michigan. We went to Kellogg's headquarters.

Oh, you did?

Yes.

Tell me about it.

So that was really surreal. So Vani Hari, food babe. Do you know Vani? Yeah, she's great. I mean, she's been in our space for a long time and been a food activist for years. And she and Jason Karp, he was another food activist, head of Human company, now major owner at True Food Kitchen. And Hugh Chocolate, for people that don't know me, he's a great guy. So these are people that I've known for a long time, and Callie Means and Josh. So anyways, they said, come out. So I went to Battle Creek, Michigan, and we were really raising awareness around artificial food dyes in Froot Loops, which they said in, I think it was 2018 or something like that, that they were going to remove it by a certain date years ago. The date came and went, no such removal. So we gave them hundreds of thousands. It was the largest food petition in American food history saying, these are parents, people around the country that said, we demand follow through with your word. You said, you're going to remove this. These artificial food dyes are highly regulated, outlawed, require warning labels in other countries, in the eu, in Canada, in Australia, New Zealand, India. And they didn't accept the food petitions. They did. They kind of ignored us. Some one of the employees put a sign out the window and said, get off our lawn. This is all highly publicized. The media was all there. And it was, you know, I thought of the 18th century, like parallels of the Marie Antoinette and Louis XVI of, you know, let them eat their toxic food. It was kind of like that.

Wow.

The American elite Monarchs, basically, you know, these large leads people. Because some of these people probably are. I see a lot of people in mainstream industries like that as telehealth patients. Them personally don't eat these foods. They don't feed the family Fruit Loops.

The people that are working, I don't understand the hypocrisy of that. Like, I couldn't imagine working, you know, for Coca Cola and not allowing my kids to have Coca Cola.

Yeah, yeah, well. And that's what really the mission was, at least for me, is to a raise awareness. And I thought, okay, we're in this little bubble, this little health bubble. But there were people when I did that, friends of ours, friends of ours that know what I do, told my wife, they said, I didn't know about artificial food dyes. I didn't know that these cereals had red dye 40 and different artificial food dyes. We're gonna make our household artificial food dye free. So these are just. And these are people that you think tangentially, they know what I do. They would have heard me talk, but it was their aha moment. So there's a lot of people that don't know in middle America that aren't wellness aficionados, that that needs to be informed, to have informed consent about this. And the second reason that I think this is so important is that this disproportionately hurts poor people and people of color because a lot of kids aren't fed well at home and they depend on the public school system for their food. And these are the foods that are completely humans should not be consuming them, but yet they're being fed to these foods in school. So it was really about that and saying, well, look, there's always going to be customers for Kellogg's, there's always going to be customers for junk food industries. But can we make it at least equal playing field as other countries? And instead of artificial food dyes like it is here, in other countries, they color the cereals with fruit and vegetable extracts. So yeah, that's.

Is it just a lot more expensive to do it?

That's what it is.

Right way.

I don't know if it's a lot more expensive, but it hurts the bottom line. That's why it's not done. Is that because Kellogg's in those other countries do with the fruit and vegetable extract?

Because they don't have a choice, right?

Yeah, they don't have a choice. And that is their position, is that until it's the law of the land, which recently with red dye 3 which isn't fruit loops, but red dye 3 is another junk food, packaged food. Now that it's the law, the land with red dye three companies are going to have to shift in a few years. Right. As this rules out. But with Red Dye 40, Kellogg's position is until it's the law of the land for these artificial food dyes, we're going to follow the law of the land. And in these other countries it is so we follow the rule. But in America, the reason is profits. And kids, they said from a color testing standpoint, the bright colors of the artificial food dyes tests better and they prefer it, you know, so that making.

Forever kids would prefer, like my nickname growing up was Poppy. Not because I lived in California and it was the flower, it was because that was my favorite food. I mean if you did this based on what kids prefer.

Right.

Could you imagine?

Right. Well. And it's like it doesn't actually change the taste. It's not like that. It's a purely marketing. But we know it causes behavioral problems in kids. I mean you look at a significant number of kids have a diagnosable mental, emotional behavioral problem, mental health issues. And behavioral issues are about epidemic proportions. So this is criminal. Really. What we know, and this isn't a woo woo person on the fringe. This is the FDA's equivalence in the EU, Australia and Canada. This is their position. And we're just saying, yeah, let's take that cautionary position that even in these small doses, because that's the argument I thought, well, food dyes would bring people together. Right. Because who's going to argue for food dies? There are people that will die on the artificial food die hill because they just are contrarians by nature. And they, if we say it, they have to be against it. And there's people that say, well the dose makes the poison and it's a small amount and just have it. And I say to that, well, why did the FDA at this point, why are they outlawing red dye 3 if you know they are not doing this off of woo woo, they're doing this off of the science that's there. And when you look at the epidemic rates of these chronic diseases and behavioral problems, there's a reason for it and it's multifaceted. It's not just the food dyes. Yeah. So that's what happened in Battle Creek, Michigan. And then we celebrated, we celebrated at the Maha Inauguration Ball in D.C. just with where our community has gone and you know, tbd time will tell, but who would have thought that People in our community and now are going to be in key positions in determining food policy for the United States.

What do you hope is going to happen in the next couple of years with this?

I talked to Marty, who's incoming.

That is so exciting that I can't.

I mean he's in functional medicine. I mean Marty is in functional medicine. He's the incoming potential candidate for the FDA at the time of recording this has to be nominated and all of that with Congress. But they are hopeful. They are hopeful that if they can get even half because they know there's some dark, disturbing, corrupt systems at play that really don't want this to happen. But they are hopeful and they there on the inside. I'm not. But I'm hearing from them that they are very hopeful of what they can achieve. So if they're helpful, I'm hopeful from all signals that I'm hearing what can we get done in four years? And as you and I said before we started recording this, this isn't political. It shouldn't be political.

It shouldn't be. It's been made political.

This is a bipartisan human thing.

Yeah.

And people on the right and left are coming together on this. Bernie Sanders recently had a forum about these conversations the chronic disease epidemic and agrees with all of these things that's talking, being talked about with Bobby and.

Marty and well, I mean Bobby Kennedy is a longstanding Democrat from a long standing Democratic family who's now.

And I would assume most of the people in the MAHA community are, are independent, center left, libertarian. We're not ideologue Republicans. We're not. Or conservatives. I should say we're not super conservative people. At least socially. Right. I'd say most of us are probably socially liberal, fiscally maybe responsible and conservative. But I think we're most of America that we just want. We want health, we want prosperity, we want, we want freedom. We want diversity of thought and opinion. These things are essential to human health.

So if you were the benevolent dictator of the world.

Yeah.

And you could change three things about the way we approach health.

What would they be from a policy standpoint?

It can be anything. It could be anything.

Yeah. Well, I think that grass laws generally recognized as safe is problematic when it comes to. There's thousands of ingredients. I've seen some statistics like 10,000 additives in the American food food supply versus in the EU it's 400 different additives. So we have a significant amount, thousands of thousands of additives that are generally recognized as safe. That are, we are seeing the that's why we have such an epidemic rise of autism, autoimmune problems.

How do those get through those grass? You know, something being considered as grass.

It'S a, it's a loophole in, in the law. So hopefully these are things that these politicians, these doctors that are now in politics and politicians and food lawyers and I talked to a lot of them last night. Food lawyers and food policy experts that are really going to close these loopholes and make our food safer for our families.

Yeah. Wow. They need to go revisit every single one of those.

Yeah, yeah. 10,000. Let's go through all of it.

Yeah.

And make a tighter thing for new ones coming in.

Yeah, exactly. So I would say really reform grass. I would say, I mean if we're talking pure policy, I think that we should quit, start reform, reforming the subsidies towards these monocrops like the wheat and the, the sort of soy and these genetically modified glyphosate sprayed crops. I think that removing subsidies for these crops would do tremendous good for the American food supply. I think that looking at the food stamp program, they don't call it the stamp program.

Yeah, whatever it is.

Snap, sorry, the SNAP program is sort of the rebranded version of it, but the food assistance program, I think that taking junk food processed foods out of that, I mean, you are preying on people that there's no informed consent to go for these foods that we feed, feed chronic disease for these people and then we pay for their chronic disease management. So this is some big policy things that if I would, I don't know if I would say if I was a dictator, but if I was, I.

Say oisy, benevolent, benevolent.

If I was a benevolent dictator that could just wave a magic wand and change American food policy, those are some ways that we would start. But then look, I think that getting special interests, this is a major, major one is getting special interest out of health research, food research, pharmaceutical research, and really having diversity of thought as far as the research is concerned. Having an ability for innovative, out of the box ideas to come forward and not subjugate or suppress information when it's inconvenient. So things like peptides and alternative therapies and psychedelics and nutrient density when it comes to food really can run wild and free and people can have true informed consent. Because to have true informed consent when it comes to somebody's health, we need to know the real evidence based benefits. What are the relative side effects? If you talk about pharmaceuticals, for example, and the choice to make what's right for you but we don't have any of that right now. We have cherry picked data, we have propaganda, we have suppressed information. And then how are we supposed to make good information as a citizen on our food and drugs and choices that we make in our life? So those are some things, big things, but I think important things, big things.

Let's cross our fingers. So last night, I will say when I was not out at the Maha Inagaro ball, I was suffering a little bit from fomo. But literally the person who represents the other side of that and having great boundaries and the whole Jomo joy of missing out movement is you.

Yeah, I talk a lot about it.

Yes. So just I've always had big mad respect for you on that. I. A lot of your Instagram posts do that. And I'm like, okay, reminder jj, reminder. Because it's been a little bit of a internal struggle with like, oh, hey.

Jomo comes easy for someone like me. Cause I'm more of an introverted homebody type of guy where I have to check myself and push myself out there a little bit. Cause it was very much easy for like I was telling my wife as I was ready to fly to dc, I really just want to stay home. I don't really want to go. And I pushed myself to go.

But.

But you're right, most of the culture is not like me, where we're hyper connected, we're super involved and we're struggling with burnout and it's that hyper connectivity on social media and it's always go, go, go and I, yeah. All in our own way, cultivating some joy of missing out. The antithesis, the antidote of FOMO is good for our nervous system. Right. It's supportive of that parasympathetic we, which I can tell you clinically and you know this, but like a lot of people are dealing with dysregulation of their neuroimmunoendocrinaxis, their nervous system, their immune system, their hormones, their endocrine system. So Jomo is a. I call it a metaphysical meal. Like we do look at food as medicine. We look at biohacks and supplementation on like the physiological side. But that psychological side, these mind body meals, if you will, these, that bringing some acts of stillness, some healthy boundaries with ourselves is sometimes the best medicine. Like saying no and making no your multivitamin is some of the best thing you can do. So I applaud you. Cause you're busy and you're between two trips and you're like, I'm gonna make this Maha ball work. But you're like, no, I'm gonna rest and sleep cause I have a trip coming up. I applaud you. And you know what? Social media always makes things look.

That's why I wasn't even going to look at it because I was like, this will just make you more upset. I ordered an extra gown just in case I changed my mind.

I love that you came that far, but I did.

I was.

You went that far to see.

And then, and then. But it's funny, I was in preparing for this, I saw a statement, you said, boundaries are medicine. And I was like, calm down. And here's the, here's the irony. This mastermind retreat that I was putting on with all of these amazing practitioners this past weekend, it was a release ceremony. What do you need to say no to? It was all of that. I'm like, listen.

Yeah, that's good. Yeah. I mean social media, it's a blessing, but it's a double edged sword and it's a highlight reel. So you were missed. You were missed. We wish you were there. But no, I'm glad that you had some self care instead.

Well, you talked about the nervous system.

And I think I've interviewed you for most of your books. I don't know if I did all four.

I think that you did maybe all four.

Wow.

So thank you so much for that. Honestly, your years of support. I thought about this as on my drive over here, I'm like, it does not go unnoticed. So thank you. Because as you know, having a book isn't easy. So when I do have a book coming out, I don't have a book out right now. I'm just here for fun and to talk. But it's your support meant a lot over the years.

It's fun when you don't have a book because then I can like totally dial into my ADHD and go all over the place.

Yeah.

There's no agenda. But I would love to go back over to Gut feelings because you just mentioned things, the nervous system and parasympathetic. And how would someone know that they.

Are sitting in that place of being.

You know, of anxiety, of nervous system dysregulation. What would it look like? And then, you know, what should they do?

Yeah, the sort of cliche, but it's deeply true is that feeling wired and tired, anxious and exhausted. So I would check in with your whole body. I think that a lot of times it is that the mental symptoms of anxiety, exhaustion, trouble falling asleep, trouble staying asleep, it could be digestive problems through the gut brain axis. And the vagus nerve is the largest cranial nerve in the body. It's responsible for that resting, digesting. So both the anxiety, calming, resting, but also your gut health. So a lot of people that have this dysregulation of the nervous system, the immune system, the endocrine system have digestive problems, chronic constipation, bloating, irritable bowel syndrome, ibs. So those are some problems. But because when the body's under that sort of frenetic fight or flight freeze state, and the sympathetic tone is overactive, that can manifest in many different ways. There is a cascade, a ripple effect, and that can happen. So then it could be hair thinning, hair loss. The thyroid's highly sensitive to stress. Thyroid issues can happen, which can cause a whole host of different problems. I mean, weak nails, the outer third of your eyebrows, thinning, fertility issues can happen here because you're talking about a cornerstone system, connection, highway of the body. That everything, when that's dysregulated, it's gonna cause a lot of cascades throughout the body. So that neuroaminoendocrine axis is really what I'm talking about, the gut brain, brain, hormonal axis. So those are some telltale signs that your body's giving you some proverbial check engine lights. And our job in functional medicine is to figure out, hey, well, what is it? And then why is it going on? So we can start to bring function back.

So someone listening, because so much of what you described is kind of every person everywhere right now.

What are some things you could bring.

Into your everyday life to start to shift that, to start to regulate your nervous system? What are your favorites?

Well, and that's why I called that book Gut Feelings, because it was both a both and not either or approach. So a gut and a feelings, a physical and then a mento, emotional, spiritual. So there's a protocol in that book that each day there's a gut and a feelings tool. So for on the gut side, it could be bringing in more soups and stews like broths, something that is like a proverbial siesta for your gut, where you're not working on digesting lots of raw things like salads or something like that, which have their place. Even you can have a salad. It could be a steamed salad or something that is little bit when you're using sort of traditional Chinese medicine, Ayurvedic principles of when the body's stressed out like this, you want to have these hearty nourishing, grounding, easy to digest things. So think soups and stews and broths. So that's definitely something that I would predominantly make your food as medicine in those sort of forms and do some brothing and souping. And then on the feeling side, it could be cultivating Jomo into your life. Bring some joy of missing out. And what do you do? It's not just about not going to that inaugural ball. It's about what are you doing in that time. So maybe it's some breath work, releasing ceremony. It's how do you kind of nourish that parasympathetic. But some of my favorites are like breathwork meditation. I talk about the Scandinavian practice of hygge, which is like getting cozy and curling under that weighted blanket, which is also great for the parasympathetic. Lighting that non toxic candle, you know, just sipping some, you know, green tea or whatever you want to have there. Some cozy thing. Because not enough people do that.

I love the. I got this cozy weighted blanket from Sunday Citizen that's got crystals in it.

Wow.

It is the greatest.

That sounds fun.

And the dogs love it too.

I want to meet your dogs.

Yeah. Tim does not love it. The dogs are like, yeah, well, next time you come, you have to come over for dinner with the dog.

What's the name of the brand?

It's called Sunday Citizen. They have a meditation pillow that's got the crystals in it. They've got the weighted. It's funny, I got one for Dr. Joe Dispenza and he always makes fun of all the crystals. So I got him a crystal weighted blanket.

He'll like it. I like it.

So I love that.

So does it ever feel like you're a marketing professional just speaking into the void? But with LinkedIn ads, you can know you're reaching the right decision makers. A network of 130 million of them. In fact, you can even target buyers by job title, industry, company seniority, skills and. Did I say job title? See how you can avoid the void and reach the right buyers with LinkedIn ads. Spend $250 on your first campaign and get a free $250 credit for the next one. Get started at LinkedIn.com campaign terms and conditions apply.

You've talked about orthorexia. Let's kind of get into that a little bit.

Yeah. So there are, I mean, for people that don't know it's disordered, eating around healthy foods and it's a complex topic. Right. It's. I'll say this There is, it's human nature, especially in our culture, with social media and tribalism and all of that, to overcorrect. So we have history as a culture to focus on purely on the outward, on vanity, on thinness and the conversation. The context can be lost there where it could be just about that, just the superficial looks and not about true health and your outer looks being a ripple effect of that. So when that context is lost and it's just sort of the vapid superficial vanity, it can create a lot of problems. And diet culture has hurt a lot of people over the years. It's messed up a lot of people's relationship with their bodies, messed up a lot of people's relationship with food. So we as society can overcorrect and really it can look at different ways, right? It can look like the body positivity movement, it could look like the health at every size. There's no such thing as brain bad food. And we have this sort of toxic tribalism, as we do in many different spaces within our world, where it's this either or, right? It's like we have our culture today. I think a lot of the conversations you look at body positivity, health at every size, they will say, any food change, you'll say, they'll call it toxic diet culture. And that context and nuance is lost, right? And we know the truth is oftentimes somewhere in the middle. Yes, toxic diet cultures messed people up, but it's also hurting people to say there's no such thing as a bad food. Like a food that doesn't love your body back isn't good, it doesn't make you a bad person, but it doesn't make you healthy either if you eat it on a daily basis. So orthorexia is in this sort of conversation because health and wellness, the people in our community, it's the best of intentions, but sometimes the context and nuance is lost there when we're talking about protein and intermittent fasting. And you have very real things like autoimmune problems and gut health issues because of our environment. And we have 24, 7 health information on podcasts and books and all these amazing things. But sometimes the vessel, the person, the consumer can't contain the amount of information that they have at their fingertips in this weird world that we live in. And it can create this sort of hyper focus obsession around health and stressing and having shame and obsession around health isn't good for your health. And it can become sort of that sort of toxic diet culture. But within Health and wellness. So I think there's that aspect of it. So a lot of my job with telehealth patients is checking that is like, yeah, you can't ignore the fact that yeah, there's some things that don't love the human body back. Yes, there is such things as environmental toxins and things that we need to have conversations about. But how can we have healthy boundaries within this information in the most real sense? Like is it, is it bringing you, is it actually improving your health and edifying you or is it just really stressing and already stressed out person? So sometimes doing less is way more effective if something do, if doing less is more sustainable and practical for you. So sometimes it's about simplifying your life. But then there's another aspect of orthorexia that I see within martella health patients that have autoimmunity because there are real and not just autoimmunity. Let me say this, digestive problems, food sensitivity issues. I see this among this population a lot. But because food has created flare ups in them, digestive problems, food sensitivities, autoimmune flares, where their relationship with food and their bodies becomes very fearful and anxiety ridden. Cause they never wanna have that flare up again. So I get that. So that's a little bit different because it's not just diet culture within wellness creating this disordered eating around healthy foods or orthorexia. This is like, yeah, I do have flare ups from food now I have fear around foods and it's orthorexia that way. Because yes, it's real symptoms, but the stress and anxiety around the food will also be a contributing factor to these flare ups around food. So we need to heal not just their body so they can improve resilience, but heal their actual relationship with food again as their gut improves, as their bodies improve resilience. Because I will find that that sort of orthorexic mindset around the food will make reintroduction once the gut is healthier, once the body is healthier, it will make reintroduction nearly impossible. Because there's such this sort of negativity and inner resistance around the food. So it's complex, but it's something that when I post about on social media, it's because I see it clinically with telehealth patients on, on both camps, you know, people that listen to all the podcasts and they're just becoming obsessive or people have food issues and that trauma around the food flare ups really creating a problem. They're eating five Foods. And they're afraid of all the other ones.

Yeah. I don't know if you know, I was a co host of a show called Freaky Eaters.

I did. I didn't know that.

Just another, yet another weird one.

You have. I know you have a colorful life that's. Sure.

It was kind of Hoarders meets My Strange Addiction. It was me and a therapist, a psychotherapist, Dr. Mike Dow. And it was people who were addicted to one food. And that was basically, for a lot of them, that's the only food they would eat. And it was at the expense of their health, their life, everything else. A common one was french fries. Um, we had the cheesy potatoes girl. We had the person who had to put tartar sauce on everything. The person had to put maple syrup on everything. A couple of them would only eat french fries. And literally if they tried to eat anything else, they would get stick sick. They would have that exact response.

Yeah. Well that's interesting because that's almost.

You should have been on that with me.

I know I could have told his stories. Yeah, I would have been. But yeah, it's not pretty when someone's in that state because look, food sensitivities, digestive problems, autoimmunities, autoimmune conditions are very real. And so the trauma around that food, never wanting to have that flare up again is very real. But at certain point, especially when we're in functional medicine and we're improving gut health, we're decreasing the frequency and the intensity of the flare ups and the goal is to put these things in remission and the body can recover from these physiological flare ups. But the mind is still in the past and on this sort of loop, ruminating loop where it's keeping their body stuck. So we have to deal with the feeling side of that, gut feelings crosstalk because it so things like breathwork, meditation, EMDR, DNRs, I mean there's different things that we can do to start to metabolize that stored trauma, to let the body know it's safe now. And we can reintroduce those foods that maybe flared you up in the past. But we can explore appropriately, we're not talking about every thing under the sun, but whatever makes sense on that person's health history, what is possible for their body. And I don't want them, nor should they want for themselves. And they don't. Most people don't. They want to have variety and flexibility and not this sort of constant hyper focus. So let's get them there. But Then we need to allow the nervous system to know, yeah, you are there. Now we can work on reintroduction.

You have been doing telehealth. We were talking about this. I think you're like, you're definitely one of the early adopters, if not one of the first pioneers in telehealth. How long have you been doing it?

16 plus years. That's what I mean. When I was at the MAHA ball, I'm normally in this one room talking to people online. So it was. Yeah, I don't get out much. I. I don't get out much. So, yeah, it's been a long time.

But when you go out, get out, you go big. Yeah, it's like I'm either in my little room or I'm at a big ball.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Nowhere in between. What have you seen over the last 10 years? Have you seen like an increase? Are you getting more people coming in with, say, autoimmune disease? What have you been seeing shift in health?

Yeah, a few things. One is over 16 years, and I'm sure you've seen this too, is that our community has expanded a lot and there's more awareness, I think, on health information. And I honestly be honest with you, I think it's one of the reasons why the whole MAHA thing has happened the way that it did, because there is this growing informed populace that voting with their dollars when it comes to the foods and the products that they want. You think of, I mean, you've been. I think I've seen you there. But Expo west, every year at the Anaheim convention.

I remember Expo West 20 years ago.

Yeah, it's massive now. And these sort of massive conglomerate, like, you know, massive.

By the way, Expo west is like now to me, fake health food.

Well, yeah, well, there's a lot of greenwashing.

Yeah.

But there's a lot of good brands too. Right.

You just have to find it.

But it's not have discerning eyes, you.

Know, it's just like going to Whole Foods.

Yeah. So it's a large natural health food expo in the world. And the point saying this is that that is as big as it is. The health and wellness industry is as big as it is, is because people have voted with their dollars. They so but. And people also voted in the election because in large part, I think if you look at the percentage of people that are voting for health in this country, it's because people are waking up that what we're doing is unsustainable. So I see that there's a Larger, diverse coalition of people that maybe have a lot of differences in other areas, but this health area is one way that we can come together. So I think that I see that also clinically is that people of all different backgrounds are really wanting agency on their health and the old age of. Because a guy said it in a white coat, take this pill, see you in six months isn't going to fly anymore. That people really want to be educated. They want to have informed consent when it comes to all health choices in their life and food choices. Um, so I think that's a big shift over the past 16 years. But specifically types of cases, I would say something since 2020 is a specific type of autoimmune condition called POTS, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome. So this is sort of a dysregulation of that neuroimmunoendocrine axis that I talked about earlier. So some signs, common symptoms of POTS are things like vertigo, dizziness, heart palpitations, anxiety, brain fog, fatigue. Now, just because you have those symptoms doesn't mean it's for sure pots, but there has to be tests and health history and context determine what it is. But there's research now that show, like a lot of these long haul or long Covid symptom, people that don't recover from COVID The COVID virus triggers POTS in a certain percentage of people and other inflammatory problems. So that's something that I would say over the past five years, I've seen more of. Now, you and I both know that other viruses can trigger autoimmune problems. It's no news to us. Like, we've been looking at this for a long time. 16 years of things like Epstein Barr virus triggering chronic fatigue syndrome. Nothing new. So the mechanism of action actually wasn't surprising when it started happening in 2020. But obviously at the time, it was a novel virus. So it was, how is this going to treat? How is this going to impact people long term? What we're seeing is that there's a certain percentage of people that it does trigger some sort of inflammatory problem impacting their nervous system, their heart and their brain. So we have great success in addressing these issues and calming down that inflammatory response. And both the virus and the vaccine, not to get a little controversial, both.

Okay, we're coming out of the closet of being controversial at this point.

Very good. So both the virus and the vaccine can trigger it. So people and you talk about. When we talk about this on social media, the comment section goes, you know, ablaze. Because People that didn't get the vaccine, they just had Covid, and that triggered the autoimmune issue. And then people that didn't get Covid, but the vaccine triggered this. It's a both and not either or. So I have no doubt that there will be studies that show the vaccine exponentially is more likely to trigger it over the virus. Time will tell on more studies when it comes to that, but I think the early data, anecdotally, I will say that I would agree to that as well, but it doesn't really matter because they both have inherent risk. Getting a virus has inherent risk. Getting a vaccine is inherent risk. The problem that I had from 2020 and on those early days of COVID 19, 20, 21, really, 2022, is the mandates. Because that was the real problem, is like, okay, they didn't have a choice if you're going to lose your job or you can't go into a building because you don't have a card, and you have an autoimmune condition, and you're just afraid and you want to do the right thing. And then that triggered pots. That's the problem. But you can't control if you get a virus or not. You didn't choose that, but you have to, like, you are being forced to have something that could cause problems. So I think that was criminal. The mandates are criminal. But those are some things that I've seen over the past five years. Is this rate of autoimmunity. Now, it's not just one thing. Right. It's environmental toxins, it's poor gut health, it's trauma. It's a confluence of different factors that are at play. So it's never just one thing. But what do we have choice on and what don't we have choice on? And let's start emptying the bucket as much as we can.

Yeah. And as far as, like, environmental toxins, I was listening to a podcast you were on. I think it was with the Skinny, Confidential with Michael and Lauren, and you were talking about something that I was like, oh, I didn't think it was that way. Where I was figuring, especially being here in Florida, that the old houses would be the moley houses and that the new houses would not be. And you actually said the opposite. And I was like, no. Yes, you did.

I know. I'm glad I said that, because I don't remember saying that in front of the world. But that's what I see clinically, because a lot of our patients have new homes. Right. Especially in Florida, where it Says a lot of new builds, a lot of new developments here. And they think, well, my home was just built, that's not an issue. But it's in their H Vac system, it's in their air conditioning system, or it's behind the walls and it was damp lumber when they built the house and it never fully dried out. And these are microscopic mycotoxins that can easily be circulated around the house. Yeah. So it's not just the old buildings. If anything, I've had people in the construction and the remediation space tell me that a lot of the older homes, this is generalizing, but a lot of the older homes are built, they were built better where the home could breathe and actually could limit the amount of mold because there was more oxygen going through versus these new homes. That sort of maybe craftsmanship or design or techniques are different. Where there's. The home is not breathing and it can fester. A lot of these mold toxins and other environmental toxins too.

Yikes. So looking at metabolic health again, because you do a lot of labs at your clinic, if someone wanted to go just look at the most important markers for metabolic health, which would they be and which numbers are the ideal ranges that you love?

So you and I were talking about this before, but they're A lot of this is pre pandemic data. But I think it's a UNC report study that cited around only 93% of participants. Let me say it this other way. Only 7% of participants hit the criteria for optimal metabolic health. 93% of the sort of 93% of people don't have good metabolic health. And I think when you look at the conventional standards, they're a little bit loose. They're looking at statistical bell curve averages of just general population. So they're not even the. The functional ranges, the optimal. They're just average ranges. So I would have even tighter, more optimal ranges.

It's probably you'd have like 3%.

Yeah, we probably 3% of people would check all the boxes for optimal metabolic health. So this is where I want the numbers to be. Glucose, your fasting blood sugar to be under 90. HDL or good cholesterol to be above 59. Triglycerides are circulated.

Men and women. Doesn't matter.

Doesn't matter.

Why do they always have the men and women different on that?

Yeah, I don't know. I want it to be the 60s and 70s for both men and women. Yeah. So there probably there could be different reasons between men and women, but as long as we're above 59, I see great outcomes and people feel great. Yeah. So I don't have to have it significantly different. So HDL above 59. Triglycerides under 100. The A1C to be under 5.6. You could say 5.7. That's your three month average of your blood sugar.

Where would you really love that to be?

5.4 would be beautiful. That'd be beautiful. I mean you could run, you could we do this. But when it's needed. Wearing like a continuous glucose monitor for a month and looking at their glucose spikes and dips throughout the month and seeing how food, stress and sleep impact their blood sugar. But having optimal body blood balance throughout the blood sugar balance throughout the month and inflammation markers, high sensitivity C reactive protein to be under one, homocysteine to be under seven. We would run what's called a nuclear magnetic resonance test. NMR test. We'd want small dense LDL particles which are specific. They're the particles that carry LDL around. They're the oxidized sort of inflamed particles that carry cholesterol around which we want this to be under 950. We want to be in pattern A which is the fluffy, buoyant, large buoyant LDL particles. And yeah, so those are, when you look at that, the NMR test, the cardiometabolic testing and the comprehensive metabolic tests. LabCorp will also assess insulin resistance score. So if I can get that test with LabCorp, if they're not going through quest, I could look at their IR score as well. I want that to be as low as possible. So when you're looking at just metabolic health, those are what I would pick. There'll be a few other ones. APOB would be one lp, little A would be another one. And these are all conventional tests. None of these are like functional medicine fringe tests. They're just not typically all ran. Some of them Iran obviously, but not all together. And if they could be super picky, like looking at magnesium, vitamin D would be super helpful for metabolic health.

Still blows my mind that we do not regularly do vitamin D. Yeah, it's.

Difficult for coverage for some people with their insurance. It shouldn't stop them. I mean we'll find a way to get it for them because this should be paramount that everybody's running a magnesium RBC and a vitamin D. And the.

Critical thing here is those numbers you just said, like if you look at the labs, the ranges are not that.

Yeah.

And so that's the biggest challenge with this whole Metabolic health thing is the ranges are too high. And so if you get to this because it's a process over time, like you don't wake up with poor metabolic health. Right? It's a process.

Yeah. Well, yeah. By the time somebody's diagnosed, it's about four to 10 years prior to that diagnosis that things are brewing on that sort of dysregulation continuum.

Now if I was benevolent dictator. Yeah.

What would you do? I'm going to numb.

I would add in a grip strength test and a VO2 max test.

Yeah.

And a balance test. Like I would look like, like, you know, if a VO2 exercise fixes a lot of stuff, they used to always say you can't out exercise a bad diet. I go, well, it can actually make a big dent.

Yeah, well, yeah. And with food is not going to be directly correlated to grip strength. I mean there's going to be some things that exercise is going to move the needle for longevity and health.

So I mean it would be fabulous if you went to your healthcare provider, they did a DEXA scan, they did a grip strength, they did like a jump test, they did a VO2 max. Then they did all of those ones as well. Then you'd really have some direction to go.

Should be standard. I mean, hey, you should be part of these incoming initiatives.

Should have gone to that ball. Well, let's talk. Let's. Before we wrap up, since it is well beyond 40, I do want to jump into the aging conversation a bit. And what I would love to do is I want to connect the dots between inflammation and aging. But I also want to connect the dots in this whole controversy out there of low protein versus optimal protein with aging. Because there is still a whole camp out there that thinks that you should not eat much protein, that it will age you.

Yeah, well, I mean, that's centered around a lot of mtor. Right. It's MTOR and the research around MTOR and longevity. Yeah. So I just think we lose the context of real life. We become so hyper focused on the pathway and don't look at the larger context of it. So I think it's oftentimes a both and approach. Even there, there's a time when we want MTOR to be low. Right. I think that there's cyclical times of fasting to upregulate these deep mitochondrial mitophagy pathways and decrease MTOR to allow stem cells to be activated and AMPK to be upregulated and all these amazing pro antioxidant pro healthspan pathways. But it's human nature to say, well you. If it's cyclical, times is good to clean house. Right. Time for cellular renewal. Let's always be in that state and we're going to have diminishing returns of that. And then you have these people that just look completely translucent and pale and feeble. It's like they don't look like a picture of health at all. And they've kind of lost sight on it because they sort of worship the pathway versus looking at the larger context of how to be a vibrant human. And yeah, so I think that we have to be mindful of protein optimization. But yes, have times of fasting as well. So I think that's the art part of science, or science isn't art. Right. But we become, you know, more is better and it's just one thing. But I think diversity is the spice of life, if you will, when it comes to so many different things, but specifically health, that I think finding times of seasonal pulsed fasting could be hugely beneficial to clean out dead dysfunctional cells and do protein sparing protocols and limit protein for a time. But long term, I think the data is clear that one of the best things you can do for longevity is maintaining lean muscle mass and making sure we have adequate protein. It's a significant part of that. Not the only part of that, but it's a significant part of it. So yeah, I think that. I don't know what are people saying? What are people saying? I know that when you look at the Vulture, Longo's research and the fasting mimicking approach and especially a lot of vegans out there, they don't really like, they have a. They think we go overboard on protein.

Well, I think it's the. Oh yeah, there's. There's definitely two schools of thought and I think it follows the whole orthorexia thing. It's like, it's like hardcore that way, hardcore this way. It's like, what if both are right? Both are right.

Yeah.

You know, I think what it was a Sasha and Panda that said we were actually eating now like 15 hours a day. Like we just literally wake up and eat until we pass out.

Yeah.

So that's not the right way to go. But it's also, if you go on this Omad, one meal a day for an extended period of time, that's not the right. So it's really. What. How do you, how do you use all of this? It. To me it looks like Western medicine and say combining Chinese medicine, Ayurvedic, they all have great things in them. We don't. If I threw out western medicine, I would not have. My son would be dead. So how do you take the best of all of these things and use the right tool for what you're doing?

Yeah.

And so yes, sometimes we want mtor low and sometimes we want it high. And it's not, it's not either or it's all of this. But if for some reason I remember back when I was in exercise science, the resistance trainers had to fight with the yoga people. I'm like, what if we need both of these?

Yeah.

So I was like, let's all get along. We need all of it to run and lift weights and do some yoga.

I mean, look at the people that, this is a generality, but the people that are the most vibrant, the most healthy and I would say also be great if we could have their labs too. But because of the brilliance of social media, many people will share their labs of what they're doing. I think that it's easy to get on a soapbox and say, well, this is the way and there's everybody should do this. But when everybody, when somebody is so myopic that they kind of lose sight of real life, I think that we create the overcorrection like we were talking about earlier. You're absolutely right. This sort of hyper focus overcorrection and it becomes sort of a cult of this idea versus the sort of art of life.

Okay, so you said showing labs on social media. So Brian Johnson.

That's kind of what I was thinking about. I was actually thinking of him.

I'm fascinated by Brian Johnson. Yeah, me too. Right. And I just like thank you Brian for sharing everything you're doing and, and the way you live your life does not seem fun whatsoever to me. But for those of you who don't know who he is, he is the guy who wants, who's running the don't die movement. And if you heard his daily lifestyle.

I've seen, I don't know if it's changed over the years, but yes, I've seen him talk about it. It's very complex. Tons of supplements. Right?

Plant based. Completely plant based.

Plant based. So I know he was kind of in that camp with protein.

Like goes to bed I think at like eight every night, gets up at five or four, eats within a very small window, goes. Stops eating at 2.

Yeah. Like, yeah, but he gets a lot of attention, right? He gets a lot of attention. It's very. People are curious about it because it is so unrealistic. You know, I think that I don't know him. I. We've talked a little bit. I want to have him on my podcast. I want to want to talk to him about this, but I could. Look, people do these things with good intentions, and I know he wants to help people. Right.

I just wonder, doesn't he want to break out every once in a while? And, like, maybe he does.

That'd be one of the dance on.

The beach at midnight.

I was last night when I was at the ball, Paul Saladino was behind me, and we were actually talking about him because apparently they were going at it on X. Oh, boy.

And what is it with X and the guys fighting the DIA wars and stuff On X?

Well, see, that's what I mean. When you told me you asked me that question, I'm like, I don't even know all the things that are at play here, because I'm not really paying attention to it. I'm just seeing patients, but I'm just.

In my little box.

I am really in a bubble, man. But someone else brought it up, and I was like, paul, what did you say to him? What did you say? And he was going to get, that's funny that you asked that question, because that's what it was centered around was protein and these sort of high protein and no protein wars on. On X. But it's like, yeah, well, first is like, all the debating on social media isn't good for our health either. So how about we just.

They throw. It's like, Paul, Dave, they love to. They love to drop one in, like, oatmeal with the peasant food and then the broccoli. And you're like, oh, here we go. Here we go.

The smart guys that are just like, it's a pissing contest. But it's. It's not for me.

All right, well, so you said something on a podcast. Something or someone I think was introducing you, saying he was biohacking in his teens.

Oh, yeah. Well, yeah, well, the story behind that was I didn't call it biohacking. My first job was at the finish line at the mall. I was like 16 years old.

But mine was at Swenson's ice cream parlor.

Oh, okay.

Same but different.

Yeah, same totally. Because mine was probably filled with forever chemicals and pfas, all those tennis shoes and breathing in those fumes. But I'd use my paycheck to go to the health food store and buy raw milk and the latest herbs and botanicals, and I really just loved human optimization and studying the science that was available at the time. So, yeah. I was tinkering with my health at a young age.

Yeah. Isn't that funny? So this tinkering, like, you know that. That was me saving my allowance to go to the health food store is considered PIO hacking. I'm like, isn't. Isn't. I like the health optimization.

Yeah.

Thing.

No, no.

Yeah.

I don't. I don't call myself. I don't even think of myself like a biohacking. I was. If I said that on a podcast, it was just me trying to give.

I think they were introducing you that way.

That's what they said.

That's interesting because I don't see you as a shortcut guy.

No, I'm not. No, no, no. Human optimization. Feeling good. Which a lot of the biohackers want to. Right. It's like that.

Well, that's ultimately their goal.

Exactly.

I'm just like. When I hear it, I'm like, no, don't try to shortcut your exercise.

No. Yeah. So even when I say that word, I'm not even thinking of the shortcut. But you're right. That's how Dave uses it historically. Right. No, I just mean like tools to optimize.

Yes.

That makes sense with what I know about you.

Yeah.

So for people listening who would love to follow you, maybe come to your telehealth clinic, et cetera, we'll put this all@jjvirgin.com willcole, but where all can they find you?

Thank you. Drwillcole.com, rwillcole on all the handles, all the.

Where's your one that you're most active?

Instagram.

That's what I thought.

Yeah. Instagram is where I'm at the most, but we do stuff on X. We do TikTok when it's available, but mainly Instagram. And my podcast is called the Art of Being well. So, yeah, those are all the places.

Awesome. So, JJ, virgin.com forward slash, will Cole. And I'm excited to have you over for dinner with the doggies. So you just let me know when you're going to be around.

Yes. I'll be back.

Hook it up.

I'd love that. All right, thanks for having me.

Thank you.

Be sure to join me next time for more tools, tips, and. And techniques you can incorporate into everyday life to ensure you look and feel great and are built to last. Check me out on Instagram, Facebook and my website, jjvirgin.com and make sure to follow my podcast@subscribetoj.com so you don't miss a single episode. And hey, if you're loving what you hear, don't forget to leave a review. Your reviews make a big difference in helping me reach more incredible women just like you to spread the word about aging powerfully after 40. Thanks for tuning in and I'll catch you on the next episode. Want to listen to this show ad free? Head over to subscribetoj.com and start your ad free experience today. Hey JJ here. And just a reminder that the well Beyond 40 podcast offers health, wellness, fitness and nutritional information that's designed for educational and entertainment purposes only. You should not rely on this information as a substitute for, nor does it replace professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. If you have any concerns or questions about your health, you should always consult with a physician or other healthcare professional. Make sure that you do not disregard, avoid or delay obtaining medical or health related advice from your healthcare professional because of something you may have heard on the show or read in our show notes. The use of any information provided on the show is solely at your own risk.

This episode is brought to you by Athletic Brewing Co. No matter how you do game day on the couch, in the crowd, or manning the snack table, Athletic Brewing fits right in with a full lineup of non alcoholic beer styles you can enjoy bold flavors all game long. No hangovers, no buzz, no subbing out for water in the fourth quarter. Stock the fridge for kickoff with a variety of non alcoholic craft styles available at your local grocery store or online at athleticbrewing.com near Beer Fit for All Times.

Hello listeners, this is Anne Bogle, author, blogger and creator of the podcast what Should I Read next? Since 2016, I've been helping readers bring more joy and delight into their reading lives. Every week I take all things books and reading with a guest and guide them in discovering their next read. They share three books they love, one book they don't, and what they've been reading lately. And I recommend three titles they may enjoy reading Next. Guests have said our conversations are like therapy troubleshooting issues that have plagued their reading lives for years and possibly the rest of their lives as well. And of course, recommending books that meet the moment. Whether they are looking for deep introspection to spur or encourage a life change, or a frothy page turner to help them escape the stresses of work, school, everything, you'll learn something about yourself as a reader and you'll definitely walk away confident to choose your next read with a whole list of new books and authors to try. So join us each Tuesday for What Should I Read Next? Subscribe now wherever you're listening to this podcast and visit our website. What Should I Read next? Podcast. Com to find out more.