The Ketotarian (Keto / Vegetarian) Diet with Dr. Will Cole

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Welcome to the JJ Virgin Lifestyle show with celebrity nutrition expert, fitness hall of famer and four time New York Times best selling author, JJ Virgin. JJ is a warrior mom whose knowledge and expertise have helped change hundreds of thousands of lives. With over 3.5 million podcast downloads and appearances on Dr. Phil, Dr. Oz, the Today Show, Rachel Ray, Larry King, love.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. This show is about you, not about me. I want to help you find practical, real world ways to dial in your health and mindset so you can finally lose that weight and feel strong and energized. Stop settling for less than your personal best. It's time to find out how to look and feel better than ever. And I'll be right here with you the whole way. Hello and welcome. We're doing something interesting today. We are going to take two of the most popular diets right now and we are going to combine them together with my super cool expert, Dr. Will Cole. He is actually one of the top 50 functional medicine and integrative doctors in the nation per Mind Body Green Green. And he's also a health expert for Mind bodygreen and for goop. He wrote this book and it came out of his practice. He's a functional medicine expert. He has people, he consults all over the world via his practice, lives out in Pennsylvania and he specializes does a lot of work in autoimmune and chronic disease. And out of that he was playing around with a lot of different diets and came up with what someone said was, you'll see this is actually I'm not going to spo spoiled a little surprise on that. Anyway, came up with this book Ketotarian, which is basically merging in the benefits of a plant based diet with the benefits of a ketogenic diet. And what I like here is that he uses the ketogenic diet cyclically to really help with metabolic flexibility. You're going to be hearing a lot more about this. I know in the Sugar impact diet I talk about really being identifying where your carbs and sugar are coming from, tapering them down and then really identifying what works well for you. But it is to create this metabolic flexibility where you can shift from burning fat to burning sugar. And with the latest research that's come out with Dr. David Ludwig with his carbohydrate insulin model. We're going to be hearing more and more and more about this and how where your calories come from matters, what you want to do with carbohydrate, with lowering your carbohydrates. And the question will be, do you need to be in ketosis or not? And what you'll hear today is that this is something you can really cycle in and out of. And we actually naturally do as long as we're metabolically healthy. So I know that was a long intro. It will be an interesting. I just, I just interviewed him so I can tell you it's a very interesting interview and we have a really cool gift from him for you. You're going to want to grab@jj virgin.com Dr. JJ virgin.com Cole forward/Cole c o L E. That's for his last name. He's Dr. Will Cole. So again, JJ virgin.com forward/cole c o l e. Now before I dive into this podcast, which you are just going to love, I want to do a big shout out to Sore sky from the Philippines and she says no bs. Truthful and helpful information. Five stars. And this was a Apple podcast review. Thank you so much Sari. She says JJ provides truthful and helpful information, no bs and she's very inspiring and motivating. I found myself getting excited once she puts up a new episode because I know it's going to be a great one. Thank you. I've actually been doing more. I used to do one per week and then I decided I was going to go up to two per week. So I love hearing all these because for a while there I was like, am I crazy? Did I lose my mind here? You know, it's a lot of sitting in a chair recording, but totally worth it. And thank you so much for jumping on leaving a review. I super appreciate it. If you haven't left a review yet, I would really love if you did. And while you're there, if you subscribed and shared with your friends. I have this like crazy goal, this crazy mission, but I know it's possible to help a billion people get healthy. Obviously I cannot do that myself, but one of my big ways of doing that is to provide as much easy, actionable information out there and with a variety of different experts, with a variety of different information. All science based but you can pick the stuff that works best for you. Plus I'm also doing some of my own where I'm interviewing myself haha as well. So you can grab what works and that is what I really focus on is creating easy, easy, actionable information that you can easily put into your life. All right, Dr. Will Cole, welcome to the show. I'm super excited about this.

Yeah, thanks for having me.

Well, you have combined like two of the most popular things into one, plant based eating and the ketogenic diet. I am like fired up to kind of dig into both because I love that you talk both about what's good and what's not so good about all of these things. But before we go there, what I want to know, know, because here you are, a functional medicine doc, big practice. How did you get into like, where did you come up with this diet? How'd this happen?

Ketotarian, which is my, you know, I had some patient tell me, you know, it was someone, a podcast, I think, that told me you made up a celebrity couple name with your book. That's like Brangelina, but hopefully Keto Terry and lasts longer than that. But the basically it's this amalgamation of being, as you said, the best of being plant based, the best of being keto. And it was born out of my own health journey, really. I was a vegan for 10 years. And you know, over that decade, my energy started becoming lower. I had more digestive problems, more inflammatory symptoms. And my diet evolved from being this conventional plant based diet, which is still real foods, but it was depended on more carbohydrates for energy. So it was more whole grains, more sprouted grains, more legumes, more fruits, more smoothies for fuel. And then it kind of evolved naturally to this keto Terry and this plant based ketogenic approach. And then that also was paralleled with my functional medicine practice and seeing thousands of patients around the world and what works and what doesn't. And that further fueled the evolution of ketotarian into what it's, what it looks like today is in book form. So that's really the genesis of it.

So let's dive into the ketogenic diet. One of the things I get asked about like every single week when I do social media lives, what are some of the benefits? And then also is it for everybody? Are there some issues with it?

So the ketogenic diet, it is, if you break that word down, ketogenic. It's getting fat ketones for fuel. And we have two main forms of fuel for energy and getting food for fuel. We can burn sugar for fuel or burn fat for fuel. And most of us in the west are in various forms of sugar burning. And it's akin to sort of kindling on A fire, right? Kindling will create flame, it'll create light, but it's short lived, it's not sustainable. So you have to keep putting more kindling on the fire. And that's what a lot of people are finding themselves on, is that they are going from one meal to the next. They're having to snack in between meals because it's the kindling on the fire. And you have the, you know, dirty kindling of the standard American diet, which you refined carbohydrates and sugar. And no one's going to say that's good. But then you have the cleaner kindling, which is real foods, but things that break down into sugar or sugar, the natural sugars and things like that. And that's better than the standard western diet. But is it optimal? And that's kind of the conversation that we talk about in ketotarian. And the other option, metabolically speaking, is burning fat for fuel. And that's what the ketogenic diet diets all about. So it's getting off of that sort of volatile blood sugar. Roller coaster hangry isn't really a thing in keto terrian land. And they are able to burn a log on the fire, so to speak. It's more sustainable, you have to refuel less often. And that's what, that's what being fat adapted or keto adapted all about. And that doesn't mean you can't have sugar and you can create this metabolic flexibility that you can ebb and flow from one to the other. And that's really one major option that I give in keto Terry, and to answer your question, does everybody, should everybody do this or is the ketogenic diet right for everybody? I think that they should build the metabolic flexibility to become a fat burner, which is where humans would have been at for the majority of human history. But then depending on your preference or your, your genetics or your biochemistry, you can go and increase your carbs someday and do sort of a cyclical ketogenic approach, which I, I really love that. So four to five days I'll be in ketosis and then I'll moderate my carbs from real healthy foods like sweet potatoes or fruits. And then I can go back into ketosis and having that metabolic flexibility. You have to have that, and to build that, you have to become a fat burner in the first place. So that's what the ketogenic diet is all about.

I love that you're talking about sugar burners and fat burners. That's what I was big on in My book, Sugar Impact Diets. Like all this snacking stuff makes me crazy.

So it's a thing. People love their snacks.

It's because urban legend, my goodness, it's because they can't. You know, I love the latest research that finally came out. I've, I've been talking about this because like finally the whole all calories are not created equal. Like, like we didn't know this already. I mean we knew it but you know, took David Ludwig to show it. But it's just people need to understand that if you're eating a high carb diet, you're basically locking the doors to your fat cells. You will not be able to burn stored fat. You're hungry all the time, you have to snack and snacking is not, not a good thing. You should not have to snack. That's the biggest sign that something's up. If you can't go four to six hours between a meal without losing your mind.

Yeah, no fun.

No fun. And I mean that's, that's crazy. You shouldn't be like governed by this. You know, it's, it's 10:00am I need to have my biscotti and skinn, you know, and they're fine because they're fat free. Anyway, let's, let's look then at the other side of this which is then integrating in a plant based diet. So let's talk, let's talk pros and pitfalls there.

Yeah, the pros of the plant based diet or a plant based diet is it's antioxidant rich, has lots of great polyphenols, antioxidants, good stuff for body. And there's a lot of a big body of evidence showing a healthy, well rounded plant based diet is having lower disease rates, longer lifespan. All good stuff for wellness. And it's fiber rich too, which is good for our microbiome. All the good bacteria in our gut love plant fiber from vegetables. So a diverse, healthy microbiome. It's 75% of our immune system. It helps with detox pathways, all that good stuff. That's the benefits of being plant based. And then the pitfalls of it is that many people find themselves not really plant based in a good way. There are more carbitarians more than anything.

I call those the french fry. The french fry Itarians.

Yeah, it's like okay, exactly where they're depending on sugar and anything, you know, carbs and starches. And that works for some people, but many people it doesn't work sustainably for long term health. When you look at you know, 50% of the United States is insulin resistant. I mean, this is very common that getting the main amount of your calories from starches and carbs. Carbs doesn't work for many people. It's messing with their hormones, it's messing with their gut, it's messing with their energy levels. Let's leverage the best of both worlds, which is what keto Terrian really is all about. You don't have to have one or the other. And these insane food wars where, you know, one side's fighting against the other side. This is ridiculous. There's. You can really have both. And we should not be fighting about foods. Let's feel great using food as medicine. And that's really what we're all about anyways. And let's just realize what we have in common. And that's really what I wanted to try to convey in the book.

There's some pretty clear things going on right now finally in nutrition, and one of them is we know we need to be lowering our carbohydrates and we know we need to be eating more plants. I mean, it's like you almost could put everybody in a room and I don't know, I always laugh. You put a bunch of nutritionists and doctors in a room, there'd be like a war. But everyone would at least say, hey, you can eat your vegetables. But. Right. You know, and even. But then of course, Gundry's book came out. I'm like, well, now we just, just flat out everyone's gonna fight. But I think the majority of us would agree that the more non starchy vegetables you eat and the, you know, lower carbs. I love the fact you're talking about the fact that, hey, natural sugar is sugar. You know, I hear this all the time, but it's all natural. I'm like, it's sugar. It's still sugar to your body. So, you know, lowering your carbohydrates and increasing your non starchy vegetables is always going to be a good thing, which is a big part of this program. So let's talk staple foods, because I think this is so key and for everybody listening, you are going to be able to get a list of the staple foods that you will want to be eating. And that's whether you're full on, because I like that you've got flexibility here with ketotarian, I would think whether they're full on, plant based or not, these are going to be the optimal foods to be including in the diet.

Yeah, absolutely.

So what are some of these so.

The base of this ketotarian triangle is healthy fats. So that's plant based fats like avocados and avocado oil and olives and olive oil and nuts and seeds and coconut and all the good things that come from coconut. And then some vegetarian keto options too like pasture raised organic eggs and grass fed ghee. So those are the healthy fats that are kind of the base of this ketotarian triangle. And then the next above that is clean protein and greens. So that's going to be good. The nuts and seeds again would be. And I also allow some vegan keto protein options like from organic non GMO soy like tempeh and natto and pescatarian ketogenic options like wild caught fish as well. And then above that is going to be sulfur rich vegetables that are good for enhancing detox pathways and methylation pathways. So that's going to be like cabbage and broccoli and cauliflower and asparagus, all of that stuff. And then above at the top of the keto terrarian triangle are is low fructose fruit. So it's berries and citrus, so lemons, limes, grapefruit, things like that.

I am like so excited. You just said low fructose fruits. You have no idea. Like that is one of the things I've been on a rampage about is looking at fruit and looking at the fructose and fruits. You know, obviously the biggest risk of where we're getting this is and when we're doing adding processed sugars to foods. But still we've got to consider this. And this is why things like apple juice are just a disaster, you know?

Absolutely. I mean there's so many people trying to do a well intentioned thing because they're, they think oh that juice, that smoothie is, is better than the Coca Cola. And yeah, something it's better. But again better doesn't necessarily equate with optimal.

Right.

And having downing all of that fructose in a Gl or too much of anything when it comes to sugar. And we all have different tolerances to sugar. Certainly there are some people that can handle more than others. But again, going back to the statistics of the people that we see, we've seen in our career, they do not have much wiggle room when it comes to sugar, even the natural kind.

And long term, even if you're fine for a while, maybe you're more athletic, it's long term a gonna create problems. But yeah, as far as I'm concerned, to me juice is like A soda. And yes, you can say, okay, it's got some vitamins you wouldn't have had in juice in soda.

True.

But like, look at, look at an apple juice compared to a Coke. It's actually got more fructose. So very problematic. Let's shift gears over to something you talk about in your book, which is the autoimmune inflammation spectrum.

It's the people that I spend the most of my time with consulting. I have a heart for it. It's my passion. And it's, there's over 50 million Americans have an autoimmune condition. There's millions more that are on this autoimmune inflammation spectrum where they're not bad enough to be diagnosed, but they are, they're having symptoms.

And those are the ones that the doctors say we'll watch, we'll just watch this.

Yeah, I love that.

What are we watching it do? You know?

They're watching until your body's destroyed enough of it to give you a steroid or immunosuppressant. That's what they're waiting for.

So, so just for anyone listening, when you do any kind of, of lab tests and you see your autoimmune titers raised, this is not something you want to watch, correct?

Absolutely. And, and look, that's not to say that everybody with autoimmune reactivity, which is the stage two that precedes auto autoimmune disease, it's not to say that every single one of them is going to have an autoimmune disease, but they may be in this autoimmune reactivity, this autoimmune purgatory for the rest of their life, but anyone in that phase is going to tell you this is no walk in the park. They're having similar symptoms, maybe slightly less than the full blown autoimmune disease, but their, their health is in the gutter and they're really left to fend for themselves. They're told they're just depressed, they're sent to all these specialists. They really have no home. And that's what I'm trying to educate people on. Give functional medicine, have functional medicine be their home, to give them solutions in their life to do everything they can to improve their health as much as their body will allow. And, and there's so much you can do. You don't have to wait till your body's destroyed enough of itself to then, to then do something about it. What can you do today to improve your health? And that's this autoimmune inflammation continuum. That a lot of people are finding themselves on.

So what are some of the key things then that they can do? I would imagine follow the diet, but a couple other key things that they can do to help shift this.

Yeah, I think food is primary as you had stated and getting that right and using food to calm inflammation and balance the immune system. And that's one of the reasons why I love the ketogenic diet done in a plant based, whole food clean way and not vats of bacon and dairy, all in the name of being keto, but actually doing it in a clean way because it increases these really cool inflammatory but pathways, anti inflammatory pathways. So it lowers inflammatory molecules, it increases antioxidant pathways. So that's one way to leverage food to lower inflammation. Beyond that, I think that if you look at the low hanging fruits, you know, no pun intended, the low hanging, low fructose fruits is that it is. Stress is a major component and the research has shown that people with autoimmune conditions have increased levels of stress compared to control groups. So dealing with stress in a real way, in a concrete, actionable way, and not just the, you know, nice sounding Instagram talking points, but really dealing with how you handle stress and lowering stress levels in a meaningful way. And humans are resilient. We've meant to handle a certain amount of stress, but some people can't handle as much stress as other people. We know that. But then regardless it's how do you manage it? What's your relationship with stress? And I find that people a lot of times people with autoimmunity and people with these autoimmune inflammation spectrum issues is that they are riddled with stress. They're riddled with a lot of mind, body, emotional components to it. And what is autoimmunity? It's when the immune system turns against itself. And I find that a lot of people, especially women, you that are going through autoimmunity, they are, they have turned against themselves in many way and they hate their body in many ways. And you can't heal a body you hate. And part of you have to deal with the physical stuff. I don't want to make light of this. There's physiological things you have to deal with, but your mind and your emotions impacts your physiology. So dealing with that too is powerful. So it's looking at all these components that are creating dysfunction in the body is really what my job is to do.

I'm going to do a shout out. I just did a podcast with my buddy John Assaraf and he talked about this very thing because he was talking about the exercises that he does. He healed himself of ulcerative colitis with doing some very specific brain training. So I'm going to shout out to that and I'll also put that in the show notes because it's a great combination with your plan and which he eats very similar to how you describe, by the way. And his inner size work. It's like this perfect one, two punch. And I think it's important for people to realize because there's no. I love that up the Instagram little quotes. It's like, okay, that's, that's not going to do it. They always have some. Someone sitting on a rock with their hands and like, like, it's like, who does that? Who goes and sits on a rock on a hill somewhere and puts her hands out like that? Yeah, not me. In fact, that stresses me out even to think about. So, you know, you got to find that thing that when, when life is stressful. I know when my son was in the hospital, I had all sorts of techniques that I already had in my toolbox. And that's important because these things will come up and if you're not ready for them, they will take you down. So I'm glad that that piece, it's like sounds like you've put together a very well rounded plan here. And I want to remind everybody that you have put together the staple foods list. And I always love to give food lists because it makes it so easy and actionable to get started. So we're going to put that in the show notes and then also we'll link over to your book as well. And we're going to put all of that@jjvirgin.com forward slash Cole. C O L E for Dr. Will Cole. And I'd love to just wrap it up with a success story. I'd love to hear someone who came into the office or you coached. I know you do a lot of consulting all over the world from your office. Love to hear about a store, a turnaround story using your ketotarian technique.

Sure. I think one powerful story that comes to mind is as somebody that's not our main patient base, which has many exciting stories there, but the reason why I'm mentioning this one lady is because she was in her 90s. And a lot of times, especially in our culture, we like to count people out when they're of a certain age. And, you know, you're just old, you know, just go home and live with what you're going through. But the reality is this lady could barely talk when she met us. She was in a wheelchair. Her husband of many, many decades wheeled her in and he wanted his, his sweetheart to live and not be going through this. And we ran labs on her and her cholesterol was in the gutter. And you, your brain needs cholesterol 25%.

Of all your body to hear this. This is one of the things that drives me crazy, this whole idea that we should be driving down cholesterol with statins as a. If it's not, there's something important here with it. So.

Right. Bringing that up.

And how many people are just doing what their doctor's telling them to do, Especially people of a certain age, where if someone with a white coat gave it to you, you just take it. And that was her. And her brain was being starved by the nutrient that it needed to thrive. And we contacted her doctor because the prescribing doctor, we wanted to loop them in at where they had her numbers shoved really low. And we, we put her on a healthy, high fat plant based ketogenic, keto Terry and way of eating. And over the next, the subsequent months after that, she was walking, she had energy levels. It was a different person. It was uncanny how quick her body wanted to bounce back, how resilient she was. And she said something to me and the reason why I thought of her was this sentence that she said. She said, I was planning my funeral when I met you. Now I'm planning vacation with my grandkids. And to me I'm like, how many people in our lives, they are just counted out and settled for feeling like crap. But what can you do today to take back your health and someone like her, her story, that speaks to me. And this was years ago, but I still remember it now because of that sentence. And I think of how many loved ones that have settled for poor health just be thinking it's normal. Just because something's common doesn't make it normal. Just be. You know, chronic health problems are ubiquitous. They're not things that we need to settle for in most cases.

Right. They're not normal. They're not normal. So that's fantastic. I'll leave with that. So thank you so much for being with us today. I really appreciate you taking the time.

Thanks for having me.

After the break, we'll be answering a listener's questions, so stay with me.

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Welcome back. This is the time where I answer a listener's question. If you want me to feature yours, pop on over to Facebook @jj virgin official or Instagram jj virgin. You can DM me or jump on one of my lives and shout it out there because I love to grab questions that just fit and this one from Pam is perfect and she DM'd me. How do I know if I'm a sugar burner or a fat burner? And first of all, I love that this is getting out there. I wrote about this in the Sugar Impact diet years ago and I am excited to see that this is starting to become vernacular because here's first of all how you know, but here's the bigger concept behind it. So how do you know if you are able to access stored fat, body fat for fuel, right? Which is what you really want to have happen. And the latest research from Dr. David Ludwig really explains it. Well, he talks about if you are insulin resistant, basically your body can't hear insulin, it's up higher than it should be. Your body can't access stored fat for fuel. And if your insulin's higher every time you eat, your body goes and stores that energy away in your fat cells. So you never have the readily available fuel you need from your fat. You have to get it solely from what you're eating. Which means that you could just, just have eaten an hour or two ago and all of a sudden you're hungry again. You're like, what the heck I just ate. Well, that's because your body can't use stored fat for fuel. And, and so it's, it's just shuffled all that stuff that you just ate away into your fat and you got nothing. You got nothing. You're hangry. So how do you know if you're a sugar burner or a fat burner? First off, you want to be able to flip back and forth between different fuel sources from, you know, protein, fat, ketones and sugar. Realistically, the majority of your energy is going to come from either fat or sugar, but you want it to be coming from fat with a little bit of sugar because you're going to use sugar when you work out, you're doing more intense stuff stuff. So, and your brain is going to be using sugar for the most part. So what you want to do, how you know is if you can go four to six hours in between meals, if you can do that 12 to 14 to 16 hour overnight fast, if you can't go more than a couple hours in between meals, and if you're losing weight but not losing your waste, you're still a sugar burner, not a fat burner. And fortunately, all the stuff that we talk about that you heard about today in the show and you hear about on all of these shows helps you increase your insulin sensitivity sensitivity from getting a good night's sleep, to managing your stress, to doing high intensity interval training to lower your carbohydrates, to optimizing vitamin D, to, to taking fish oil. All these things are gonna help. And then make sure you eat the protein, fat and fiber trifecta, eat each meal. Cause that will help with satiety, controlling appetite and blood sugar control. And then you'll be able to stretch your meals further and further and you know you've won when all of a sudden you go, oh my gosh, I forgot to eat. When you forget to eat. That means that hunger didn't drive you because your cells actually, you know, can hear insulin again. And you can access stored fat for fuel. So 4 to 6 hours between meals easily do a 12 hour overnight fast. You can also do some easy intermittent fasting of 14 to 16 hours. You skip a meal without losing your mind, and if you need to lose weight, you easily drop it off your waist. There it is. That's the easy ones. All right, one more big reminder. Make sure you don't miss an episode, so hit the subscribe button and I'll see you next time.

That's all for this episode of the JJ Virgin Lifestyle show, which marks another step towards a healthier body in mind. Don't forget to rate, review and subscribe to the show and we'll talk to you next week.

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