The Secret Life of Fat with Dr. Sylvia Tara

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And other authorized retailers. Hey, it's JJ Virgin. And welcome to the JJ Virgin Lifestyle show where I give you the latest cutting edge intel to help you look, feel and think better. Now, today's show is all about the secret life of fat.

All right.

I still am blown away that this woman exists and I am so excited to share her with you today. She is a PhD biochemist from the University of California at San Diego and an mba, has her MBA from the Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania. And gosh, here's her story. She's going to tell it, of course in the interview, but just to give you the brief, because of her own weight loss struggles and being a biochemist, she decided, huh, I think I will figure out what's going on here since you know, the typical bank account model of weight loss wasn't working. So she spent five years deep diving and learning everything that she could about body fat, how it works, how to lose it. And that's what we are going to be talking about today. I am super, super excited to Dr. Sylvia Tara with you.

Let's do it.

Dr. Sylvia Tara, welcome to the show. I'm so glad you're here with me today.

Great, thank you. It's great to be here.

Well, first of all, like the Secret Life of Fat. Oh my gosh, that is the greatest name ever for a book. Of course I looked at that and I was so intrigued and then to, to like dig in, to learning about you and finding out that you've got this whole experience, you know, world around why people can't lose weight. What are some of the reasons that people can't lose weight? What's different for men and women? What's different if you age? I mean I get asked these questions all the time. So I'm like so excited to have the expert here to answer some of the biggest questions out there. So, but before we go into all of that, I'm just teasing everybody right now. Why this book? What made you do this?

Yeah, so I've always had problem gaining weight extraordinarily each day.

Oh no, no one likes you oh, you have trouble gaining weight or you couldn't gain weight?

No, trouble, trouble. Sorry. Trouble losing weight. If I said that incorrectly, I'm sorry.

You said you trouble gaining weight. I'm like, everyone just hung up.

They're all like, no, I've had trouble with gaining weight. I gain weight easily. So it's trouble with gaining weight so easily and then trouble losing it. Just to be clear, I pack it on. I pack it on very easily. And I watch people all around me eating whatever they want to eat, you know, not really exercising. And someh they managed to stay thin. And I feel like I eat less than people. I'm not sedentary, and yet I would gain more fat. And so I got very fed up with this. I went on a number of diets. I worked with personal trainers. I put my all into it. No matter what, it seemed like I'd be just a bit fatter than everybody. And I was about to go on one more diet, and I thought, you know what? I'm a scientist. If anyone can understand fat and why I'm having these problems, I can. And I am going to figure out fat once and for all. Why some people gain easily, some people lose easily, why my fat looks different, why I have more trouble with it. And so I spent five years researching everything there is to know about fat. I think I pulled a thousand papers out of the scientific literature. I spoke to over 50 scientists, doctors, clinicians around the world about what they were learning about fat. And what I was finding out was just so astounding, I thought, you know, I have to capture this into a book. And so the Secret Life of Fat is that it's everything I learned about fat.

I love this. And, you know, it's so funny because I know we have a mutual friend, my brother, Dave Asprey, and I'm just listening. So she's a fat hacker, right? So you're finding out all this stuff about fat, like, what's the craziest thing that you found out?

I thought the craziest thing was that fat's not just fat. So we all tend to think that fat's just sitting there collecting calories as a reserve for when we need to burn it off. And anyone who has too much fat is just eating too much, not exercising. It's like a bank account. That's how we think of it. And the more I started learning about fat, it turns out fat's an organ. It's not just sitting there. It's actually very active in our body, and it's communicating within our body, fat will send out hormones that the rest of our body depends on. All these different organs and tissues in our body depends on these hormones that are being released by fat. In a way, it's like conducting a symphony, if you will, just like your adrenal gland or your pituitary gland. There's a symphony of signals in our body, and fat's a big player in there. One of the hormones is leptin, which is written about somewhat, but I think I was really surprised to find that leptin, which is released by fat, travels through the bloodstream and binds with the hypothalamus region of the brain. The brain actually can control appetite. So when we lose fat, we end up losing leptin, because fat produces leptin. When we lose fat, we lose some of those levels and it actually drives our appetite forward. It also decreases our metabolism. And in this way and many other ways, fat is designed to come back onto us. It wants to grow back on. And it's designed with many talents in order to let it do that. And so these are the secrets of fat. And I think if we don't understand these secrets, it's hard to control fat, especially if you've had stubborn fat like I have.

I love hearing this. And you don't know this about me. So I was a personal trainer and I was training people, and I took a group away on a retreat and kept them on a very calorie controlled diet, same exercise. And I was watching, I'm like going, wow, some people are losing weight, some people are gaining weight, and some people are staying the same, right? And I was in. I was in graduate school, and I went, you know, this whole model, this bank account model, that's like, create the caloric deficit of 500 calories. This doesn't work. And so my mantra is, our body's not a bank account. It's a chemistry lab. Like, that's why I say, I was reading your stuff. I'm going, oh, my gosh. So I just love it. Now. Let's dive in because, you know, for so often we've heard we're crazy. And this whole idea of, you know, women and men, I remember being someone to go, no, women and men lose weight the same. And I'm like, what? You know what? So let's talk about women and men and why we just are fat stores much more than they are.

Yes, Women actually interact with their fat much differently than men. And it's very interesting. There's only a few researchers that I found that actually Study this. But girls are fatter than boys, really, from birth. They've studied about 5,000 babies. And they notice girls always have more fat, even when they're just born. And it's probably happening even in utero. And so what happens is that women actually store fat away much more efficiently than men do, about two to three times the rate that men do and does keep us a little fatter. But the upside is it's actually keeping women a little bit healthier, too. So instead of having triglycerides, fats, cholesterol, circulate in our blood deposit in our heart or liver, places where it's not supposed to be, our bodies are very efficient. It stores fat into subcutaneous fat tissue where it belongs, where it's safe for our body to store fat. Now, that's kind of vexing because, of course, we are trained to not want to have all this fat around us. But I think women has to take some comfort into that fat tissue is actually keeping us a little bit healthier. The other thing with fat is that women actually react to exercise differently. So when women exercise, and they say a strong bout of exercise burning off 5, 600 calories or so, we get more ghrelin. And ghrelin is a hormone produced by the stomach that drives hunger. And women after exercise like that have 33% higher ghrelin levels than men. And when they put food in front of both men and women, after that exercise, women will overcompensate. They'll eat way more because they feel really hungry. So they undo the effects of exercise. And interestingly, even after eating, women still have 25% higher ghrelin levels than men. And that lasts for a day or so. So I think women, as we introduce exercise into our regimen, we have to be more careful with it. I think we have to add a little bit slower. Don't create that hunger spike. Get really ingrained with your dieting regimen. Be really solid there, and then add exercise in slowly. And if you feel a really strong spike, just take it back a notch. But really, women and men are interacting differently, and fat's more important for women. And I have a whole chapter on the importance of f. Fat also produces estrogen. Our reproduction system is linked to fat. Our bones, especially in teenage girls, very much linked to their fat levels. And it's again, because the hormones fat is creating. So, you know, number one, love your fat, appreciate what it's doing, and realize you have to be a little bit more intelligent, you know, and how you treat your fat, it is designed to fat fight back, especially on women. And you have to be as clever as your fat in order to fight it.

I love that. Now other one that comes up all the time and that makes me crazy because I'll hear that this is not an issue. And it's like, come on, aging.

Oh yeah.

Especially. And I'll tell you this, it's so funny. When I first started as a trainer and here I was in my early 20s, I was actually one of the first personal trainers in the country. Me and Body by Jake in LA. And my clients when I started were all 35 and then all of a sudden they were 45. And what was working at 35 no longer worked. I was like, wow, right?

Yep.

Yeah.

In fact, I talk about one researcher, he did an experiment with like a thousand male runners and he had them tested over time. And what he noticed is that they gain weight no matter what. So even eating the same diet regimen, exercising, running the same amount of miles with time, they tend to gain weight. And the only way they can undo that is if they add 1.4 miles per week to their running exercise, you know, every year. So like say if they're like 30 and they're doing 10 miles a week, by the time they're 40, they have to be doing 24 miles. Miles a week.

Right.

In that 10 year span. And that's the only way their suit will still fit. So aging really does play a large role. We do have to work harder with age and a few reasons for that. We're losing some of our fat busting hormones with age. So growth hormone, which is plentiful when you're young, great fat burner. Then those decline with age, as do testosterone and estrogen and all good fat burners. And so to compensate, we have to add activity. We have to watch what we eat more. We are designed to be fatter with age, and there's some reasons for that. I think with nature, like I said, fat produces estrogen. Fat becomes a primary supplier of estrogen as women age. So it's no surprise that your body wants fat. So even though we don't value fat, we don't like it, you know, nature kind of does. And we're at opposing forces sometimes and we have to get to, you know, what is a healthy level. And I think it's not necessary to look like a bikini model when you're, you know, 55 or 60. You can have a little bit of fat and still be healthy. And that's another kind of learning.

Yeah, that's let's talk about that. Because it's like, so where should you be? I mean, it's like, you know, we've gone now from the extreme of, gosh, Kate Moss, all the way over to Kim Kardashian, you know, as far as female role models. So, like, what's the healthiest weight, body fat to be at? Like, where should we strive?

So I know that's the averages that are given in all the tables. And, like, the average is fine. I think it's around 25 to 30% for women.

It changed, by the way. It changed when I was in grad school. Actually, when I was in doctoral school school in my late 20s, the numbers were lower than they are now.

Huh. So they've added some fat on.

Yep.

Okay. And that's not a bad thing. You can be some ten pounds over what, you know the weight is. It depends on where your fat is stored. And that's the other key here, is that not all fat is equal. So we have subcutaneous fat. That's the fat right under your skin, Right? The. So, like the fat in your legs, your buttocks, your arms is subcutaneous fat. And then there's visceral fat, which is that fat nestled under the stomach wall near your internal organs. And that's the really dangerous fat. And I actually wrote some research done on sumo wrestlers, which is though, although they're really obese, believe it or not, they're metabolically healthy. And there's another very interesting thing about fat and its secret life under our skin is that it's producing another hormone called adiponectin. And adiponectin, when it's released from fat, actually helps clear the blood of fats, cholesterols, and helps store it into subcutaneous fat where it belongs. Exercise helps fat release adiponectin. So the more we exercise, the healthier our fat is. And it's producing this adiponectin, which has been clearing our blood and putting fat where it belongs. Sumo wrestlers exercise for seven hours a day, and because of that, even though they're obese, their fat's stored in their subcutaneous tissue in the safe deposit. They don't have a lot of visceral fat, which is a type of fat associated with heart disease and diabetes type 2. So they're surprisingly metabolically healthy. So even if you have a little extra fat, you can have healthier fat if you keep it away from your visceral area. And that's what's key, too. And there's other fats. There's brown fat, which is healthy fat, to have beige fat, which is newly discovered. So you do have to understand your fat fat. And, you know, the key isn't to be a stick figure. We don't all have to fit into bikinis or be on the COVID of Sports Illustrated. It's to be healthy with your fat. And part of that is being accepting of what's realistic and not letting the perfect get in the way of the, of the, of the probable or the possible.

I don't know anybody who's perfect at this point. So I like, you know, I think we all strive for that and that's what sets us up to fail. So I love, love hearing you say that. And now, now what I'd really love to get from you is someone listening to this going, okay, so I'm starting to feel a little better about this. I know I'm not crazy because anyone listening to this knows my whole take on, like, this is not a calories in, calories out issue and that you've got to work with your hormones and, you know, all of that. But what, what would you give is like someone, someone really trying to get to their healthiest body composition. And I really would love if it got out into the popular culture where we stopped talking about losing weight and we only talked about losing fat and really achieving a healthy body composition. One of the things I've always said is if you lose weight, not your waist, if you end up looking like a potato on stilts, you didn't make yourself any healthier. You made yourself a lot worse. So someone now listening, going, okay, I'd really love to drop some body fat. I know I need to, and especially, you know, around my midsection. What are some of the top tips like, top three takeaways you'd give to them?

Yeah, one thing is I just have to fess up and say that this could be harder than you think it is. And this isn't meant to be depressing to anybody or to turn anyone off, but losing fat is hard. You're remodeling your body tissue inside, essentially. And fat is designed to stay on you, not only by the hormones it secretes that make us hungrier, that lower our metabolism. It actually diverts blood supply to itself. So it's got all these veins directing to it, you know, that. That increase the amount of fat you have. And when you're saying you want to take it off, you're looking to undo all of that, all of that kind of residential, you know, wir that it's put in place to survive. And so because of the leptin effect, so when we lose fat, we lose leptin, we're hungrier, our metabolism is slower. Unfortunately, that lasts for years. It's been studied for six years. Researchers aren't sure if it goes away for everybody. And so people who've lost weight have to eat less than people who are at that weight to begin with. For example, if someone was 150 pounds naturally and then someone was 170 and they lost 20 pounds to get to 150 pounds, the person who lost those 20 pounds has to eat about 22% fewer, fewer calories than the person who was never heavy to begin with. And so there's a caloric penalty to losing weight. And that's what lasts for years. So you have to find a diet you want to be on for the long haul, because it's not a six month diet. You get on and you can get off and go back to normal. I mean, this is going to be somewhat permanent for you. And people are very individual. If you've yo yo dieted a lot, you're going to have this effect pretty hard where you're having to eat less than what other people around you.

I love you bringing that up because I still remember it was one of the things when I would look at is someone weight loss loss resistant. And I'd always look to see if they'd been on like lots of diets gained and lost. And I remember reading something saying that doesn't impact your metabolism. I'm like, come on, muscle gain fat, lose muscle, gain fat. How could this not impact your metabolism?

Yeah, yeah. So there's a lot of things that you know that are part of it. So that's one yo yo dieting, you just have to eat less. But there's also other ways we get fat. So if you've had stubborn fat, you have to be aware of it. We've talked about age, the effect on age and hormones. And then also, you know, our genetics play a role here as well as our microbiome and even viruses. So I've learned that weight loss is very individual, depending on your past, your family history, the age that you are. And I think what works the best is really keeping a very strong dialogue. Very good research coming out of Weitzman Institute, where they look at individuals and how they respond to foods and they notice that people's blood sugar doesn't respond to food the same way. So some people can eat candy or a muffin or alcohol and they don't have a blood sugar spike. Other people have just a potato chip and they're getting a spike. All our sensitivity to food is very different. And so in Secret Life of Fat, what I really promote is just individualizing your diet. Really keep a log of what are you eating at what time are you eating and when is that correlated to weight loss or gain. And some of the things I noticed for myself, and I write a chapter on myself, is that the time I ate made a big difference. So I noticed if I ate after 5 or 6, I gained weight very easily. If I cut it back to 3 or 4 o', clock, I could lose weight. Salads were a great way to lose weight. Some of that's the fiber passing through your gut and not being absorbed by your microbiome or your gut. And then, you know, I could eat some straight sugar. I know sugar is really, you know, considered terrible right now. But I found I could get away with certain things as long as they weren't combined with white flour. So, you know, find the tricks for yourself. And I do give some guidance on this in the Secret Life of Fat about how to individualize a diet to make it work for you.

I love that you brought up the Food Journal. I was. One of the things I put into all my programs is. And in fact, when I was, you know, a one on one nutritionist, I would fire clients and I had like CEOs and rock stars and they had to do this, they had to give me their daily food log. I said, I don't care how you get it to me, you're getting it to me. Because Kaiser showed that it was the single biggest determinant as to whether someone's going to be successful on a program. And you know, it's free. So here it is, the number one thing. And you just heard it again from someone who's like dug deeper into fat than anyone I've met. So I love that one because it's just, this is one everybody can do. And one of the things we always teach is that you need to go on your own personal discovery process, just like you're saying. So I again, I'm just thrilled about this.

People will be surprised at how much you might be eating and that little snacking or grazing that you're not counting. Once you start counting up everything you're taking in, you'd be surprised how much carb you're having, how much processed food or the time that you're having. It's actually quite revealing. And I agree that I talked to the person who Runs the dieting, the weight loss center at Tufts University, at Joslin Center. They say the same thing. They're demanding logs for people, and it's a really good way to monitor what you can eat to what you get away with and just how much you're eating in general.

Yeah, because we do. We underestimate it. That's why those, those food frequency reports are so ridiculous. Because, you know, you can't go back and. Or the food histories, you can't go back and recall. You have to absolutely write it down. Every time it goes in your mouth totally changes everything. And for those of you listening, if you're doing it only on the good days, that's not how that one works.

Yeah, right.

I always hear that. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. Now you've mentioned it a couple times. You have got, like, first of all, best book title ever, Secret Life of Fat. Tell us about, too. You have the website, the secret lifeofat.com. what can they find there?

Yeah, so, you know, they can find where to get the book. They can find some stories, some. Some blog articles.

Right.

But I do most of it is on Facebook is where I put recent findings or research or any comments I have. So you can find the book, you know, Barnes and Noble or at Amazon or even some airports. And then, you know, you can find me, Lilia Tarra, PhD on Twitter. Twitter, or Lilia Tara, PhD on Facebook. And then, of course, the website is www.thesecret lifeofat.com.

Excellent. So you want this book. This is one of those success library ones because, you know, this is one of those things I love that you said, you know, yes, it is hard, but it's not impossible. And the more, you know, the more you can do about it. So it's, it's very important because if your approach is just, I'm going to eat less, exercise more. You are, you know, unless you're 20 and you're totally metabolically healthy and you have 10 pounds to lose, this one's going to backfire on you.

Yes, absolutely. Knowledge is power when it comes to fat. In fact, my editor lost £15 after he read my manuscript because there's all these things going on he wasn't aware about.

And.

See, that's great. Sometimes it's so small, like, you know, I called you the fat hacker. Sometimes all it takes are some of these small tweaks that you just never knew about, like, you know, stopping eating earlier in the evening that can make such a big difference. There's this one diet guru out there that makes me crazy because he tells people to eat six times a day and one of those and you're just gonna fall off your chair. So I'm just. Hold on. Okay. But he tells people that they should have an evening snack, like chocolate covered strawberries or some graham crackers. I'm like, oh my gosh, you know, if I did that, I'd be a blimp. I could not possibly.

But you know, the thing is some people can do that and be perfectly fine and thin and like, my husband's one of them. I'm married to someone who can eat all the time. And so like I said, most of.

The people listening now I can tell.

You, yeah, so it's individual, really. And for me, no, I can't eat anything close to night. In fact, I have to stop eating at 4 o' clock if I want to be thin.

So that's what I'll say. It's like just when we talk about the people who are short sleepers, I go, there's a small, very small percentage. It's not you. Some new tricks, some new different things to look at. It's awesome. So I want to remind everybody again, go to the Secret Life of fat dot com. You'll be able to find out where to get the book. It's everywhere. And also head on over to your Facebook page there. I love that you're putting stuff on all the time. So I'm now going to go and make sure I liked you so I get that stuff in my feed. Super excited about that. And thank you again for joining me. I'd love to have you over for a Facebook live. We have to do that.

Yeah, that sounds great. It was fun to be here.

So after the break, I'm going to be answering a listener's questions. So stay with me.

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Welcome back. Now this is the time where I answer a listener's question. And today's question comes from Keenan in St. Louis. And Keenan writes in I keep hearing about intermittent fasting. I want to try it. What do you Recommend. All right, so intermittent fasting has a couple of different applications, but basically intermittent fasting is where you vary your meal times and it can be every anything from a whole day of fasting. Generally, what intermittent fasting tends to mean is more of eating within a very specific window during the day or even a mini fast, like my friend Dr. Kellyanne Petruchucci, she talks about in her programs. So for this show, we're going to talk about intermittent fasting really in terms of, of limiting the time that you eat. It's kind of your feeding window during the day. And the most research has been done on an eight hour feeding window. And there's been a lot of books about this where you, you can eat whatever you want during that eight hours and it will be fine. Well, I think that's a little bit crazy. And as much as we'd all love to believe that, I think we could all pretty much guess that doesn't work as well as figuring out your hidden food intolerances on the virgin diet, lowering your sugar impact, and finding out really how many carbs you should eat through the sugar impact diet. And then another trick or fat hack that you can use is to reduce your feeding window. And here's why this works so well. It works because you're going to have more time that you're more insulin sensitive. So when you eat, every time you eat, you raise blood sugar and you raise insulin. If insulin's up, it's basically telling the fat cells, hey, we've got stuff we can use out here. And so it locks them so that you can't use stored fat for fuel. So what you want to do is get more insulin sensitive and have insulin lower longer during the day. And that's one of the things that intermittent fasting can do. It can also help support better growth hormone response. It can be detoxifying. But the challenge is if you're working on, say if you've got adrenal exhaustion, poor blood sugar control, it can be also very problematic. So here's what I like to have people do. The first thing that I have you do is get your blood sugar balanced by eating from the trifecta of clean, lean protein, healthy fats and fiber through lots of non starchy vegetables and some slow, low impact carbs. Get that dialed, then make sure start to work on your eating window. Eat an hour or two after waking up, see how you feel, start to blow out the snacks, eat every four to six hours and stop eating three to four hours before bed. First thing I have people work on is at least a 12 hour overnight fast. That means if you had breakfast at 7, you had dinner at 7, stopped eating at 7 rather, and then you didn't eat again till the next morning at 7. And then we start to work so that it gets to be a 14 hour fast. There's actually some really good research on that 14 hour fast. So if you had breakfast at 8, you'd have dinner and be done by 6. And then depending on how you feel, you may start to be able to take breakfast even a little later, say nine, and have dinner, be done by five. So that's the way that you would experiment with it. You may find that a couple days a week you could skip dinner. I prefer having a dinner skip than a breakfast. I find that I do better that way. But see how you feel. And again, one of the things you probably got from this today was that you really have to work with your own biochemistry lab that you have. And you are always your best personal health detective. Now, if you would like to submit a question, you can head over to my Facebook page at JJ Virgin official or you can leave one on Instagram @jj virgin with the little official blue mark. We're all over the Internet also of course on Pinterest and we're always checking everything and you can also send into customer service. But we love, we love the questions. I love the questions. And then another thing that I love and I super duper appreciated are your reviews. I read each and every review on itunes. They mean so much to me. And I am going to read. Let's see this one from. This is a, this is a quickie from Jane D. 42 from Australia, an Aussie. Hi, Jane. And she says, I love your show.

Five stars.

Your show is my favorite way to start my day. I get so inspired from the amazing information that's shared from you and your guests. It's world class. Thank you. I so appreciate it. And if you'd like to leave a review and gosh, thank you. They help a bunch, so I super appreciate it. Just pop on over to itunes while you're there, share it with your pals. And again, thank you for joining me and thank you so much for your support. The big thing that I work on is helping give you action or information that you can put into immediate action so you can take control of your health. I fully believe my mission is to help us all take personal responsibility for our health. We are our own personal health detectives. We know our bodies best. And most likely, if you're listening, you're also the CEO, the healthcare CEO for your family too. So want to remind you that this information is only valuable if you do something with it. So grab a pearl or two from today, put it into action and I will see you on the next show. Bye bye.

Hello listeners. This is Anne Boeckle, author, blogger and creator of the podcast what Should I Read next? Since 2016, I've been helping readers bring more joy and delight into their reading lives. Every week, I take all things books and reading with a guest and guide them in discovering their next read. They share three books they love, one book they don't, and what they've been reading lately, and I recommend three titles they may enjoy reading next. Guests have said our conversations are like therapy, troubleshooting issues that have plagued their reading lives for years, years, and possibly the rest of their lives as well. And of course, recommending books that meet the moment. Whether they are looking for deep introspection to spur or encourage a life change or a frothy page turner to help them escape the stresses of work, school, everything, you'll learn something about yourself as a reader and you'll definitely walk away confident to choose your next read, with a whole list of new books and authors to try. So join us each Tuesday for what Should I Read Next? Subscribe now wherever you're listening to this podcast and Visit our website whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com to find out more.

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