The Sleep Advantage with Devin Burke

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The energy to play full out at 100. All right now, if you've been around my podcast and my community, you know that I am absolutely fanatical about getting a good night's sleep. Holy smokes. And I tell the story on this podcast about when I first met my husband and his sleep habits and what we had to shift there. And I, I track my sleep. I do it a couple different ways. My but I'm always looking for new information because it is a topic that has a lot of difference of opinion here. But the thing I know about sleep that's most important is if you are working on getting healthy and as we know, you have to get healthy to lose weight and have a have, you know, a great body composition. You don't lose weight to get healthy. And so you have to heal your metabolism. And the first place that you start healing your metabolism is, is with sleep. Now I have a great guest today and I'm super excited about him because he brought in some new concepts that I had never heard before that are gonna give you permission to incorporate something into your day that will be a game changer. I'm not telling you anything else. That was a provocative tease. So you'll go, oh my gosh, I have to. I have to Listen, so in a couple new techniques that you can employ that are gonna have a dramatic impact on your sleep and health. So let me tell you about Devin Burke, who is our guest. He's an international TEDx speaker, the best selling author of the Sleep Advantage, the founder of the Sleep Science Academy, and one of the top health and sleep coaches in the world. And I was like, devin, like, how'd you get into this? You'll hear that too. Anyway, he has books, keynotes, programs and videos that have inspired thousands of people to improve their sleep, their energy, and their life. He literally, like, this is his life's work. And he has got some new information, different takes, and great explanations on why you need to get a good night's sleep. And then things that you can do that I'd never heard before that can make a big impact. So I will be right back with Devin. Stay with me. Hey, jj, Virgin here.

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All right, I am always one to wanna talk about sleep and see if we can get some, first of all, compelling information, get people to realize how much they have to prioritize it, but then also some new information to help people do it better. So, Devin, I'm super excited to have you with us.

I'm excited to be here. Thanks for having me.

Well, why did you get so into sleep?

Well, to be honest, it was kind of. It's kind of an interesting story. I sleep great.

I'm so happy for you.

Yes, yes, I know, yes. I'm one of the lucky ones. Applause yeah, actually I sleep so well that my family used to call me narco as my like narcoleptic.

Wow.

Yes. So it wasn't out of my own struggle that got me into this jj. It was actually somebody else's struggle. So it's a long story, but the short version is I was working with a lot of high performing entrepreneurs, coaching them. More like a life coach.

Well, none of them sleep well.

None of them sleep well. And I didn't know anything about sleep and they kept asking me, hey, this is a huge issue, can you help me with it? So I looked into what was available. I found two things, sleeping pills. And I found what's called cbti, which stands for Cognitive Behavioral Therapy for Insomnia. So I mean, first and foremost, when I looked at what was available, I was like, ah, I'm not, you know, the sleeping pills, that's not a solution. That's. That's a band aid. Right, the cbti.

Well, and here's the thing with sleeping pills, I think it's important for people to understand is they actually don't fix the problem.

Exactly, exactly.

You don't get quality sleep from them. Right. And they don't fix whatever is the reason you weren't getting sleep in the first place. So, like, there really isn't any reason for them that I can see.

Well, they're dangerous, actually. Most of them are addictive, they're habit forming and they're linked to the major diseases, Alzheimer's, dementia. I mean, it's bad. And actually on the inserts, funny enough of it's not really funny, but of Ambien, which is the most popular one, insomnia is listed as a side effect.

Go figure.

I mean, it's like, wow. So I.

Head scratcher.

Yes. So total head scratcher. But I was. So I looked, I started to look into what was available. I was like shocked at what I couldn't find. And then I started to study it myself. I started to get very, very interested. And the more I learned about it, the more interested I got. So I started to read all the books, take certifications, and I had a sort of a.

What are certifications for sleep?

Good questions. So sleep. I'm a certified sleep science coach, a certified sleep sleep specialist. So there's all different types of certifications, right? You could go to, you know, there's. There's a ton of them out there. But really most of my experience was self just learning myself through reading the books, experimenting and then getting. Starting to get results for the people that I was working with and learning what worked from. Working with, from that with them. So it was really interesting. Sort of starting to notice, okay, what works and what doesn't work. And taking all of my education, which was at holistic health, which is in psychology as well, learning about mindset and mindfulness and awareness and sort of taking all these different things and really applying them to, specifically to sleep. And that's what we do at Sleep Science Academy. It's really helping people holistically look at their sleep and understand how to really address the root cause, which in most cases is stress.

So you must have had a field day over the last couple of years. You must be a very busy person.

Oh my gosh, super busy. Yes. It's been interesting the last couple of years. Literally, our business has doubled in the last.

Oh boy. I will share something interesting. So when I first met my husband seven years ago, he slept five and a half to six hours a night. I'm like, this will not do. You know, this will not do. We have to fix this. But then, you know, he was a corporate guy, so he's never been with an entrepreneur who, when things are going sideways or stressful stuff, bing. You know, I'm up in the middle of night because everything's coming out of my head and I have to sit down and. And you know, I know I'm not supposed to do that. So like, we know, but it's kind of one of those entrepreneurial curses when you're under a lot of stress. It's like the middle of the night, your eyes are wide awake thing. And he's like, what the heck is that?

Yeah. And then it can become a pattern, and then it can become a pattern. And this is where it becomes really dangerous for a lot of people. A lot of these psychological patterns then become physiological and the body gets in these rhythms where it starts to then release adrenaline and cortisol in the middle of the night because you're kind of training your body to do that by not having the mental rest and restoration throughout the day. And so it's, that's where this actually becomes a real issue for so many people, especially high performers.

Well, let's, let's start first with. Because I think you can never hear this enough. And again, I, you know, thinking of my husband when he was like, okay, well I can just get by with this so I can get more things done. And then I was recently speaking in an event and one of the speakers was like, you know, all the research, you know, meta analysis shows that six and a half hours is the optimal amount. And I'm like, I don't think, like everything I'm seeing does not say that. And moreover, I just know personally that if I don't get my good 8 to 9, where it's like, I know I'm getting in bed at 8, so I'm not getting eight hours of sleep.

Cause obviously like fall over in bed.

And then wake straight up. But I know what I need in terms of that to feel great. So I'm like going, I don't know if you know, is that research just based on. They are in bed for eight hours and actually six and a half of that was actually sleep. But what's the actual, like, you know, what's. So why is sleep so important? I work a lot in weight loss and I know there are huge, huge issues if you're not getting sleep for weight loss. But let's, let's go through that so we can convince people that this is the, I think I would say like the number one thing that impacts your health is sleep.

Thank you for saying that and I'm glad that's where we're starting. Because there's not an area of your life that, that isn't either negatively impacted or positively impacted when you focus on the foundation of health, which is sleep. So literally from a, from a physiological standpoint, we can talk about weight loss. You know, you're, you're gonna, you could have the perfect diet, you could be exercising, but if you're not sleeping, your body's not recovering, you're gonna, your cortisol levels go up, your body starts storing belly flat. And that's the worst place to have it, right? That's where, so you're not getting into the, the, the restoration. So there's so many things that happen that people have no idea during the night. It's Insane. There's certain stages of sleep where our, our body is, is, seems like it's sleep, but it's, it's not. There's so much going on. The glymph system, which is like the lymph system for the brain, that's when the beta amyloid, the plaque that builds up that creates Alzheimer's and dementia, that's when that gets cleared out, that's get flushed out. It's like, you know, the cells in our brain sort of shrink in. This fluid washes over our brain, removing that plaque. We all have cancer in our, in our bodies. Everybody has cancer in their bodies, Right. It's during the night when the immune system is most active in clearing out those damaged cells. So when you're sacrificing that your body, you're putting yourself in there. And this, the studies show this higher risk of heart disease, higher risk of cancer, diabetes, dementia, anything that you could see that you want to like, stay away from that. When you sacrifice sleep, you're heading straight towards that direction from a longevity standpoint.

Well, also, you know, let's stop one second because it's just interesting when you look at intermittent fasting and why people want to do it now and they want to do it for autophagy. So your body can do that self cleaning.

Yes.

So when I heard that, I'm like, all right, well, could you undo the positives of intermittent fasting if you weren't sleeping well? Because you know, your body needs to be able to go through the process of self cleaning, through rest and restore.

Right.

So that is interesting. I haven't, I hadn't heard that part before. So underscore there. All right. Mental health.

Okay. This is, this is a huge one. Now there's a lot of studies again, that show relational studies when you are not sleeping, you're irritable, you're on edge. When. Which leads to what? Conflict in your relationship. Think about the last time you had a fight with your husband. Probably you were a little bit tired, right? It's so emotionally we're not able to read people's emotions. So you might be walking down the road, somebody looks at you and you think that they're looking at you in a weird way. Just because you're under slept, you're not able to emotionally regulate that become. That creates a lot of issues, especially in relationships. And everyone's kind of experienced this. You know, you're at a party late at night or whatever it is, and the next day you just feel off. Emotionally, you feel, you feel off. And then you start making bad decisions because cognitively, you know, the prefrontal cortex, that's important to make decisions, that also isn't working optimally when we're under slept. So it's sort of a cascading effects. And then our bodies crave sugar and fat like crazy because that's the source of energy. Right. So we're. And ghrelin and leptin, those hunger and full hormones, they get dysregulated. So we're just. You become a hot mess when you don't.

I would say you're hungrier. You're better at storing fat and you're hungrier. And you're not hungrier for salmon.

Yeah, exactly.

Like, no one's really slept crappy and said, gosh, is there some broccoli around? No, that happens.

That's 100%. You go for the quick, easy, sugary foods and it's. The willpower is just not there because you're fatigued.

Okay. So mental stuff. Any other things to hit on?

I would say memory. There's a lot of studies now that show when you're not sleeping during the night, that's when short term memory gets shuttled to long term storage. So there's a lot of. Especially for kids and for young adults and for college students, there's a lot of studies that show mentally we're just not able to remember things as well or learn things. So if, learn. If you're a lifelong learner, if you're engaged with life and you want to retain information so that you can improve, sleep's pretty darn important.

And getting enough, you know, it just shows you how your moms are always right. So I hope my kids are aware of that. But, you know, it's always that cramming for a test and you're going, you're better off getting a good night's sleep. And you're like, no, I need to stay up all night and do this. And it's like, it never worked. So there's the reason why, because your short term memory is not going into your long term storage area. So big question here, because it is such a hot debate, you know, especially in the biohacking world where it's like, you know, can we shortcut things? And I always feel like you can't shortcut exercise, you can't shortcut your diet and you can't shortcut sleep. No, you can't shortcut them. But is that the case or can you shortcut your sleep?

There are certain people that have genetic mutations. Let's say on certain genes that sort of can. So there are these lucky people that have, you know, for whatever reason, God gave them the gift of being able to get away with less sleep.

And how many people is that? I heard it's like point of like a half a percent of the population.

That's. I mean, how do they really know that? Who knows? But it's a very small.

Have you. All my year. Yeah. In all my years of seeing clients, I had one client who needed four hours of sleep a night. Literally, like, because I would do the test of okay, like we're on vacation, go to sleep whenever you. Nope, that was it.

Four hours.

She's done it since she was a little kid. I was like, wow, imagine your life if you only had to sleep four hours a night. Yeah, that's the. But that is it. One client now almost 40 years.

There you go. I mean it's, it's. Most people wish they had this and it's unfortunately, I mean it's like literally a superpower. So for most people listening to this, like I would say probably 98% you don't have this superhuman ability. You need to get sleep, you need to get rest. And if you're not prioritizing, protecting. It's not just about the, you know, the quantity of sleep, it's also about the quality. And this is where it got really interesting for me because I thought I was such a great sleeper until I really started to measure and track my sleep over several months and years and see. Okay, well, you know, no, these devices are not 100% accurate. Of course not.

But I was just going to ask you. So which thing I will tell you. I don't know if you remember the sleep. The very first sleep tracker, home use one that came out, it was called a Neo something and you wore it on your forehead. And I actually went to the launch of it in New York. The problem was that we were supposed to wear it that night and come in the morning with it and give our report, report our data. And they were going to. Well, I was coming in from California and you know, we're supposed to be down there at, you know, eight in the morning. Well, that's five in the morning my time. Which means now I'm getting up at 4 and I'm not sleepy. And you know, so now I'm sitting there and then you start to get stressed out. You know, that whole like if I go to sleep now, I'll get this many hours of sleep and then I finally fall asleep and throw the thing off my forehead in the middle of the night, I was like, but I tend to sleep with an aura ring and an Apple watch, mainly because I've gone through eight freaking Oura rings now. Aura because they keep breaking. And I'm like, you know, it's ridiculous, but it feels like the Oura ring reports better than the Apple Watch. And the Apple watch seems to give me, like, better scores. And I'm like, yeah, I don't believe you.

So.

But sometimes I just want to take the Apple Watch's scores just to. Because I feel better about myself.

But you sleep better taking those scores.

So what would you. So, first of all, what are we looking for? What really designates a quality night's sleep? And what's the best way to track.

Yeah, so right now, the Oura ring is the most accurate.

I just have one every couple months. I'm like, it broke again. It's ridiculous.

You just have to have backups. But out of all the devices, that one is the best one for tracking sleep. And the algorithm is getting better, their hardware is getting better, and especially now that they had a huge influx of money, things are even getting more better. So, anyway, so the OURA ring for tracking sleep. And when you're looking at. Here's the thing is the Oura ring. The Oura ring is not 100% accurate, but this is. It doesn't matter, because what you're looking for is you're never looking at one night or one week of sleep. You're looking at your sleep over several months or even several weeks to several months to really make any decision to see, like, hey, I did this, and it affected the quality of my sleep. And when we look at quality of sleep, we're looking at delta deep sleep, which happens mostly in the first half of the night, and REM sleep, which is. Which is usually happening in the fourth quarter, like, right before you wake up. I said, like, the first quarter and the fourth quarter, if it was a football game. But these, you want about 20% of your total sleep time in deep sleep and about 20 to 25% in REM sleep. And your sleep architecture is going to depend on so many factors. It's unique to everyone. It's as unique as, you know, your finger, your, you know, your fingerprint. It really is. So this is where you have to be open to experimenting and trying different things to see, okay, I did this. This is how it affected my sleep, and this is how I felt as a result of my sleep being affected. So there is. There is a really important thing to, for everyone to understand. You have to be open to experimentation here. There's not a one size fits all for sleep. Just like there's not a one size fits all for exercise or nutrition.

Really well, so for experimenting, because you just said something and I realized I'd been doing something really stupid where I'll go, I'll try something and I'll watch it for a night and I'll go, oh, okay. But you just, what you said was you have to watch it over weeks, over months, which I'll, I'll like, try. Okay, I'm going to try a sauna before bed. Let's see what happens. And then I just assume that that information is like, that's the information.

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So if you are experimenting before we get into next, I want to know, like, what are the absolute, like, don't do this before bed and don't do this early in the day and don't do this instead. Like, how long do you need to watch something to really get a clue?

So it depends.

Come on.

I know, I know. So here's the thing. I would say give something at least a week before you say, hey, this is definitely either improving my sleep or really destroying my sleep. Give it at least a week and be consistent with whatever it is. So if you're going to do a sauna two hours before bed so your body temperature starts to drop, do that consistently as much as you can and then look at the data and look at how you felt. Most importantly, because our body is the most intelligent machine, you know, that's what you, you need to always tune into. How am I feeling? Not just the, the data on your.

No, but, but you could do. And I'll tell you one thing, and I was laughing. I was like, when I saw this, I'm really careful about not eating right before bed. Like, I cannot stand eating and going to sleep. And you know, every once while you end up somewhere and you're like, oh my gosh, like it's we haven't eaten dinner.

It's nine.

And I remember something happened. I ended eating up dinner at like 9 and going to bed at 10. And my order aura ring literally the next morning was like, looks like you ate late last night. And I'm like, are you kidding me?

Oura ring.

But you know, it just, it was a, you know, an n of 1. But it was so clear cut. I mean you, you see those things, you know that's good data, right? 100%. I don't need to test that one out again. It's just like, you know, drink a bottle of wine, go to bed, wake up in the middle of night. Don't need to test that one again.

Exactly. I mean those are, that's the lowest hanging. The low hanging fruit is caffeine, alcohol in food. But meal timing is. If you eat too late, it's absolutely without a doubt going to disturb the quality of your sleep. Without a doubt.

What do you think? What time do you think people should be like having their last meal before?

Like what's the span?

I'm not going to say it depends, but it does on your metabolism. I would give it at least.

I need that. Like.

I know, I know we need it. So three hours. I would say three. Three, three hours. Some people actually is, is for most people. So we're just going to say most people. Some people. It's actually longer than you. Four hours. Some people can get away with a little bit less if they have a really quick system and they're eating certain foods that are able to metabolize quick.

Yeah, I would imagine if you ate. We were in Italy this summer. We went to some restaurant and got, we wanted to get a steak Florentine and it was like, it was like a cow they brought out to us and we, we ate that and then we were like both looked at each other and I was like, I need to go lie down, like I need to cook. Curl up in a fetal position. And we just went. And we walked and we walked and we, because we were like, there's no way we can go to sleep after eating that amount of. But you know, something that is so slow to digest, like protein with fat. I would think, you know, versus I'm not advocating ever to have like non fat milk and cereal before bed. But that type of thing I would think wouldn't be as much except you'd have a hijacked blood sugar. So don't do that even either.

Very important.

Very important.

So food, alcohol, caffeine, let's Dive into those a little bit more because I just want to reiterate those ones as to why they're so challenging for people in sleep, what they do.

Yeah, so. Well, caffeine is, you know, the half life of caffeine is about six hours. So it's in our system for 12. And there's something called sleep pressure and it's this, this chemical called adenosine that builds up, that creates the sleepiness. And, and caffeine unfortunately blocks adenosine. So it's sort of, that's why you feel alert and we don't want to block that. And so if you block it too late, and again, this depends on how fast you metabolize caffeine. And you know, people can get away with a cup of coffee in the morning and that's, that's fine. But if you have caffeine too late, it's good. Again, it's going to be in your system and it's not going to allow that adenosine to really build up and then you're going to have sleep debt. So caffeine timing. If you can wait an hour after you wake up to let your cortisol start to come down and then have your cup of coffee, that would be like the right time.

Really?

Yes. Because your cortisol's highest in the morning. So you don't want. Caffeine is like dumping gasoline on a fire.

That is so good. So we get up in the morning now and meditate and we don't have coffee for an hour. So you're doing it right solution. We didn't used to do that though. It used to be like, roll out of bed, you know, I was like, how do we get the Bluetooth and then like a Roomba or something to bring us the coffee, you know, but so that's interesting. Okay. Wait an hour to have your coffee.

And if you can have it with a little L theanine, that would also help buffer the caffeine and the, the sort of the effects on the adrenal glands because it is stress inducing. You know, caffeine creates adrenaline and noradrenaline and hyper alertness. So if you can use that with L theanine, that's a great little hack, if you will.

Wow. Is there a coffee with L theanine? Someone needs to make one.

You know what? I think there is. If you go into Sprouts or Whole Foods, I don't know the name Mind boost maybe, but there is somebody that does that. That's great. But if there's not yeah. Hello. Hello.

Someone make it for us? Tell us.

Ding, ding, ding. Um, that's. That's a million dollar idea. Uh, yeah, so. So the other thing it's important to mention here, jj, is we lose a liter of water throughout the night through sweat and respiration. Some people lose even more if you're having really good sex.

Wow.

Yeah.

Wait, some people lose even more of.

What you're having really good sex.

Wow.

How much do you lose then?

You lose up to 2 liters. You can lose up to. So. So.

Holy smokes.

Yeah, so you're, you know, if you're really breathing hard and you're. You're. It's sweaty in there, you're gonna. You need to hydrate. So first thing in the morning, get some. Some water to hydrate to get with some. Maybe some electrolytes in it to. To really replenish and start to build up the hydration bank so that you're not drinking so much toward the end of the day. And then you have to wake up and go to the restroom.

Yep.

Simple. It's so easy.

Wow, that's great. It's a good one. Okay.

All right.

So there's the caffeine. What about alcohol?

Yes. Alcohol is unfortunately something that can make us sleepy and fall asleep, but it raises our body temperature. And alcohol is a toxin. So depending on the quality of alcohol, this is really important because I've experimented with this. You can drink biodynamic, organic, low alcohol wine like Dry Farm, like our friends at Dry Farm.

Like Todd. We love you, Todd.

Like Todd and David. And so here. So it's really important to understand that quality matters. But yes, it's going to heat your body up. You're going to wake up. It's also diuretic, so you're going to. Unfortunately, it's going to do the opposite of what you want to be hydrated while you're sleeping, because you're already losing, like I said, a liter of water. And some people more. So if you can have quality alcohol at dinner, not before you go to bed, like, not a nightcap, which is unfortunately what a lot of people end up doing, because that's how people manage their stress. They're like, I just need a drink. I need a beer or a whiskey or whatever it is. And that's really the last thing you want to be doing if you're using alcohol to manage your stress, which is where most people. Because it's so easy, because it works really well and it, you know, you feel good.

I know what happened to Todd's business during the pandemic. So I mean it was like they couldn't keep up with the demand. Yeah, you know, it's funny. Not funny, but you know, you do that is that is again another band aid.

It is, it is. So, you know, and so it's important for people to understand that there are other ways of releasing stress and that needs to be happen all throughout the day. Because if it doesn't happen all throughout the day, you're building up this tension and pressure in your mind, body system. You can't expect for that just to be discharged and then, oh, I'm able to sleep. That's not how it works. It's not. And this is so important for understand if people are not resting throughout the day, even micro rests, you're going to have issues with your sleep.

What is a micro rest?

It could look like a walk, it could look like doing 10 deep belly breaths, it could look like dancing, listening to music. That is a form of active rest, but it's resting. It could look like anything that's going to allow your mind sort of to stop trying to solve the problems.

Got it.

And that needs to happen literally throughout your day because your mind is just revving up and that's revving up your body and then you're going to have to have a lot more space at the end of the day to allow that body and mind to simmer down so that sleep can happen. Because sleep is a result. It's never the problem. Sleep is a result and people treat it like it's a problem. It's not, it's just a result. That's it. Your body knows how to sleep.

Okay. So if you are having challenge sleeping and you've dealt with the caffeine, alcohol, food, food situation, then what the heck do you do?

Then you hire me? No.

So, and your phone number is.

I'm not giving you my phone number. But the truth is, if you're doing all the sleep hygiene things and you're still having issues with your sleep number one, you definitely want to get. If you haven't got blood work done, if you haven't seen a doctor, please go do that. Just to rule out anything physiological that might be going on in most of the cases though, honestly, it's between the ears. It's stress related.

I would think that it's probably either stress related. What I've seen with a lot of people is they just don't realize it's a big deal. So they don't make the priority a priority. Right. So that's, they don't protect it. I've seen. They just go, oh, I, you know, you know this statement, I'm sure you hate this statement. I sleep when I'm dead. You know that statement like I'm like, well yeah, you're going to die faster. You will be sleeping.

You snooze, you lose. That's another one I hate.

Oh my gosh. You hear that all the time. So you know, assuming that that's like they're prioritizing, there's that. What I've always seen is, yeah, stress is the biggest, biggest culprit. So any ideas there?

Yeah, I do. I have lots of ideas. So one of the things you mentioned earlier is what you do in the morning is, you know, having a mindfulness practice. Massive, massive, massive, massive. Having. Training your, your mind to see that you're not your thoughts, to un, to create some emotional intelligence and self intelligence to understand the thoughts that create the stress, the stories, all the, all the psychology. If you can master your psychology, you can master your stress. And so a mindfulness practice is sort of, I think, foundational for people to step back and really understand that a, they're not their thoughts and also to understand the thoughts that create stress and how to kind of process and deal with those thoughts. So that, that's one thing foundational.

Could you imagine if, you know, if in elementary school this was one of the foundational things that was taught, like how different things would be.

It would literally the world would be a different place. It's like it blows my mind how it's not, it's that it's that important. It's like it's as important as brushing your teeth as, you know, it's, it's, it's so important and it people just until you actually experience it and consistently practice it and make time to do it, it's just kind of one of these things like oh, meditation. It's not for me. I don't know how to do that. It's like some esoteric yoga thing that, you know, it's just not for me. You, you have to find a way to connect to some sort of practice that creates mindfulness, that creates this awareness that you can understand that you're not your thoughts and learn how to process your emotions and understand what emotions you're having. Most people, and I've worked with thousands of people at this point that I work with, they never had training in any of this. They don't understand how their mind works. They don't understand how to deal with emotions. They don't even know what emotions they're experiencing. It's like, it blows my mind. And it creates so much suffering and stress that then leads to the sleep issues. So that's foundational. Having space. I mean, this is a big one. And jj, I know you're high performer, entrepreneur. It's hard when you're a go getter and you're running businesses, you're running families, but if you don't have 10 minutes in between whatever it is you're doing, you don't have a life, literally. So it's like you need to create the space. People go from one thing to the next, and they're just nexting all day long. And that is a form of stress. Even if you're nexting with things that you love, that you enjoy, that you're excited about, that's still a form of stress. And there needs to be space. And it's so interesting when people actually honor rest and rhythm and create the space throughout their day and they do these little practices and they're able to get to sleep. Sleep doesn't become an issue.

I, you know, it is very funny. I was on another interview today, and they were asking me something around, like, you're sitting next to someone on a plane. What's the advice you give them, you know, for their life? I'm like, white space. And you've said something that I've never heard anyone say before, and it is like, it's so profound. So you said micro rests. And, you know, people think of taking little naps or doing a little quick meditation, but I think of it, and as you said that, I went, oh, that's like, I just. We just got the cutest little puppy ever. And I think the little bit of time that I'll stop and, like, goof off with the puppy. There's a micro rest, right? And it's funny because you need them, like, and you're not being less productive. You're being more productive when you schedule in a burst of work and then.

You go goof off 100%.

But, like, I can't tell you the joy that I have watching these two dogs now playing together. It's so good. And that is it. Those are my micro rests. And I think that's like the coolest thing to build in to your day so that you don't get to the end of the day. And now all of a sudden you're trying to unwind and you're wound up so tight. It's too late, that there's no way. You can't unwind that.

That's 100% right. And it's interesting you said that because my micro rests are with my mini bernadoodle. Tully.

Oh, wait a minute. Mini bernadoodle. Tule.

Yes.

Oh, the name's Tule.

Her name's Tuli. Yes.

She's kidding.

And this dog is, you know, you say you have the cutest dog. I'm going to disagree. I have the cutest dog. And she.

How much does she weigh?

She's about 28 pounds.

Oh, she's big. A minor five and six pounds.

Oh, yeah. So those, those are little ones. But yeah, so it just, you know, those micro arrests, it's game changing. It really is. And that's, that's a great example of something that could be a micro arrest first. That's a great example. And there are actually real studies in science that show that when you pet an animal, even if it's just for a couple of minutes, it helps release certain chemicals to relax to.

Yes, it is the best. Like holding on to a little. I mean, it's the best, you know?

Yes.

One more thing about my dogs and then, and then we're going to talk about this great ebook you're giving everyone just because I can talk about this. So one of the fun things about Chihuahuas is they were bred to be water bottles, hot water bottles. And so they sleep next to you under the covers. Wow. They absolutely burrow in there and do. It's so cute. Can get a little hot sometimes, but you know, it's very cute. Anyway, you have an ebook because I know we've just scratched the surface. My big goal today with this interview was to help people. Just if you have still not fully committed to getting quality sleep, to finally go, I'm doing it already. I'm gonna do it. And I now I know you have the tool to have them do it with your ebook. So we are going to give everyone the sleep Sleep advantage ebook. And that will be@jjvirgin.com sleepadvantage now that you know what you must do if you don't feel 100% with your sleep. And, and I think too tell me if I'm wrong. I really feel like if you're not tracking it, you don't, you know, you can judge it by how, how you feel. But I really feel like you need to tie that with tracking, don't you?

Yeah. You can't, you can't manage what you don't measure. You can't master what you don't measure. So you know, if you're, if you're wanting to improve something, you have to measure it. So, so absolutely, I'm in agreement with that.

And is there an ideal number of hours? Because, boy, there's a debate all over the place on ideal number of hours. And I would think it would depend on the REM and deep as well. But is there an ideal quantity in there too? Or is it all dependent on the REM and deep?

Yeah, I mean, so they say between seven and eight hours, some people need more than that, some people can get a little bit less than that. And that, that's going to change with the seasons, that's going to change with your age, with how much you train, going to change your sleep architecture over. Your life is going to change. So the key is if you wake up refreshed, if you're waking up and you feel fatigued and tired and groggy and it's just, you're just dragging all day long, you're not getting enough sleep or you're not getting enough quality sleep. Got it. So always check in with how are you feeling? That's a great question to ask when you wake up. Like, how am I feeling right now? Do I feel rested? Do I feel like, you know, do I feel rested? That's a great question to ask. Even, even throughout the day, do I feel rested? And if you don't, if the answer is no, then do something. Do a micro rest. Do something that's going to allow your you to get what you need so that you then you can sleep.

Yes, do those micro rests. That's the other, the biggest takeaway from here. Again, I want to remind you to grab the ebook@jjvirgin.com SleepAdvantage incorporate in some of those micro rests. I've been doing it, but I've been feeling guilty. So now I'm having guilt free micro rest. Thank you so much, Devin.

You're so welcome. Happy to help.

All right, thank you so much for everything you've done today. I really appreciate it. And again, everybody make sure you grab the ebook@jjvirgin.com SleepAdvantage. Okay, so it is all about, about the micro rest. Micro rest micro rest. And for me that is petting the doggy is my biggest micro rest. That that like makes me so ridiculously happy to, to hear that. That's like a health hack. It's like holy smokes. And so a couple things I really loved here was waiting to drink your coffee in the morning. Now I've been doing meditation with Dr. Joe Dispenza. We'll put that in the show Notes how to get started with Dr. Jo Joe so I've been doing that first thing in the morning and then having coffee so it's naturally been happening. So that's great news. And then also starting instead with some electrolytes. And remember, I have electro replenish so you can start your day with a little electro replenish. Bam. And then do your meditation with Dr. Joe. We'll put the link in for that and then have your coffee. And I gotta find out this coffee l thean singing thing that's like super cool. And then just remember you're going to build those micro rests in throughout the day. That could be a little workout. That could be a little quickie, quickie med. That could be a little like laughter, deep breath work, whatever. Micro rests. It's all about the micro rests. All right, I will see you next time. If you've not yet subscribed to the show, so you never miss any awesomeness, it's subscribetoj.com See you next time.

Hello listeners, this is Anne Boeckle, author, blogger, and creator of the podcast what Should I Read next? Since 2016, I've been helping readers bring more joy and delight into their reading lives. Every week, I take all things books and reading with a guest and guide them in discovering their next reading. They share three books they love, one book they don't, and what they've been reading lately, and I recommend three titles they may enjoy reading next. Guests have said our conversations are like therapy, troubleshooting issues that have plagued their reading lives for years and possibly the rest of their lives as well. And of course, recommending books that meet the moment, whether they are looking for deep introspection to spur or encourage a life change or a frothy page turner to help them escape the stresses of work, school, everything. You'll learn something about yourself as a reader and you'll definitely walk away confident to choose your next read with a whole list of new books and authors to try. So join us each Tuesday for what Should I Read Next? Subscribe now wherever you're listening to this podcast and Visit our website whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com to find out more.