The Sneaky Symptoms of Lyme Disease & How to Heal with Dr. Darin Ingels

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There's incredible variability in how lime affects each person. So I always say, you know, your lime is your lime. You know the typical story of what I see in my practice are people that were probably exposed many years ago, it didn't get diagnosed and now they're suffering from some of the long term consequences of it.

Here's jj, Virgin triple board certified nutrition and fitness expert and four time New York Times best selling author. It's time to reignite wellness.

Hey, it's jj. If you've been in my community for a while, you know that I wrote Warrior mom to share how I got through the biggest challenge of my life which was when my 16 year old son was a victim of a hit and run and literally left for dead in the street. In that book I also talked about his long standing psych disorder. He got diagnosed with bipolar disease when he was young but it really never looked like bipolar disease and I was never really really dialed into that. I did so much testing along the lines to try to figure out what else was going on because it just never made sense to me. Fast forward to last year. Dr. Sarah Gottfried introduced me to an amazing psychiatrist who's part of the Mindshare community, Dr. Kat Tupes and Cat, in listening to me describe what was going on said have you ever tested Grant for Lyme disease or Bartonella? And I know no, sure didn't. Anyway, we sent these special tests off to Germany and she was spot on. He showed up with both of these and as we've started to treat him first he started to get a weird die off that happens when you do have these things. But the biggest thing I noticed from the beginning of treating him is that he a lot of these things that he'd have of unstable personality which of course got exacerbated by his severe traumatic brain injury just started to go away and like overnight. And so I have been very obsessed with learning more about Lyme disease and those types of infections. So I'm very thrilled to be bringing Dr. Darren Ingalls on today. Darren Ingalls is a naturopathic doctor I've met through Mindshare who is absolutely brilliant and also absolutely courageous because as you're going to hear, Lyme disease is still just not widely recognized, although it is hugely, it's a huge, huge issue in this country. So Dr. Darren Ingalls is a licensed naturopathic doctor. He's a fellow of the American Academy of Environmental Medicine. He also wrote the Lyme Solution, a five part plan to fight the inflammatory autoimmune response and beat Lyme disease, which is really like the book on how to beat Lyme disease. And we will link to that one in the show notes if you're listening, going well, I don't have Lyme disease. You may and that's what's really interesting here. And if you're one of those people who doesn't just feels like low grade tired or you have any kind of neurological stuff going on, moody, depressed, along with arthritis, you're struggling as you're going through menopause, there's a lot of things here that actually Lyme disease can exacerbate and it's not tested routinely. So and even if you do get tested quite often the tests don't show. So we're going to talk about all of that but more importantly, what the heck you can do about it here in today's show. Now before I jump into that, I wanted to do a little shout out to Christina who gave me a five star review and said thank you for the encouragement. Jj I had a rainy Saturday so I caught up on several of your shows. I'm so motivated to start feeling better. These tips and hints are so helpful and easy to get. Two things I'm taking away today is to start journaling and to focus on one thing at a time. Don't try to be perfect at everything at once. Thank you for sharing and encouraging and I just want to a say thank you so much Christina for that. If you have not left a review yet, hey big ask because I'd love to shout you out and all you need to do is go to subscribe to jj. I'll put that link on the show notes too. And you're going to want to grab these show notes again. It is jjvirgin.com forward/lime and that's L Y M E for Lyme disease. Now before I dive into the interview, I want to share this with you. See you in a bit hey, jj, Virgin here.

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Dr. Darren Ingalls, welcome to the show.

Oh, thanks, JJ.

This is going to be really interesting because we've actually never discussed this before and I think we're going to blow some people's minds. So we're going to be diving into Lyme disease and people might be like listening going, oh, well, I don't have that. But we're going to uncover, you may just have it and I'll share one of my personal stories. But before we go into that, where I'd love to start is how you got interested in this because you're now a renowned expert in Lyme disease and so there must be a story behind this, Darren.

Of course. Well, you know, like a lot of people that become experts, you become an expert because you have the problem yourself. And I developed Lyme disease back in 2002 while living in Connecticut. And for people who don't know, Lyme is actually named after Lyme, Connecticut. That's where they first discovered it back in the late 70s. And I got infected about two weeks before I was set to open my own practice. So the timing was wonderful. And I had all the classic symptoms. I had 105 fever and headache and a big bullseye rash on my leg and swollen lymph nodes and numbness and ting. And if you read through a medical textbook on every symptom of Lyme disease, you know, I pretty much had it and, you know, I found it right away. I was fortunate. I treated it immediately, and within four or five days of treatment, I felt fine. Unfortunately, you know, being a new business owner, I was, you know, doing everything. I was the doctor, I was the bookkeeper, the receptionist. So I was working very long days. And after about eight months of keeping up that schedule, I started to relapse and having symptoms again. So I said, no problem. You know, I treated this before and it was fine. So I started treatment again, and I didn't get better. I started changing treatments, I didn't get better. And I went through really about nine months of antibiotic therapy and got worse. So I started losing weight. My gut was an absolute wreck from all the antibiotics, even with taking probiotics, and I realized that I had to start looking at something different. So I was fortunate to have known of a doctor in New York City who's a Chinese medical doctor and acupuncturist who had treated some other patients I had seen with Lyme disease. And I saw him, and he started me on a regimen of Chinese herbal medicine and some acupuncture. And after following that protocol for about three weeks, I was 85% improved. So that was really my wake up call that I needed to come back to my roots as a naturopathic physician and really evaluate the way I was living my life, what I was eating, how I was sleeping. And even with doing all of that, it still took about two years to feel like I got my life back. But eventually I got to a point where I was symptom free.

So couple big questions. I mean, how many people walk around with this, do you think that never got diagnosed with it and have some of these symptoms going on?

Well, from the data that we get from the CDC, we know there's upwards of about 400,000 new cases each year that get reported. We know this is a condition that is grossly under reported. So our guess is, at least in the United States, we're talking literally millions of people that are walking around with these vague symptoms that, that they're just the walking wounded. They don't feel well, they're not sure why, they've been to their doctor, they've done every test under the sun. Everything comes back looking normal. And we find often, you know, many years after the fact of when people start having these symptoms that, you know, they've got Lyme or some other kind of, kind of tick borne illness.

And what are these symptoms?

So classic symptom for Lyme is, of course, the bullseye rash is the telltale sign. It literally looks like a target on your skin where you've got these concentric rings of, you know, dark, light, dark, light.

You know, how big are these and how long are they there? Because what if someone just misses them?

It starts off generally fairly small. It can be just a matter of an inch or so. But the characteristic of this rash is that it spreads over the course of several weeks up to actually several months. I know my particular rash took about three months to go away, and it started out about the size of a quarter and eventually got to be about 13 or 14 inches by the time it was done spreading.

Okay, so there's no way someone could miss the rash.

Well, if you have it, probably not. The problem with the Lyme rash is that upwards of maybe 40% of the people who get infected actually develop the rash. So it's one of these things that if you get it, hands down, you know that you've been infected. But if you don't get the rash, that doesn't exclude the possibility of still having Lyme disease.

And only 40% of people get the rash.

Yeah. And what's really scary is that the CDC, if you read their website, they say upwards of 80% of the people get the rash. But when you look at the medical literature, the research, it does not corroborate that at all and actually suggests it's 40% or less. In my practice, I guesstimate, it's probably somewhere about 20 to 25%.

Wow. Okay, so beyond the rash, then, what are some of these symptoms?

So headache, fever, chills, swollen lymph nodes, particularly in the neck, the groin, or under your armpits. You can get a condition called Bell's palsy, where one side of your face starts to droop. You can get numbness and tingling. We Call it neuropathy in your hands, your feet, and your skin. Fatigue, of course, is dominant and just other kind of weird arthritic symptoms. One of the things that's also very characteristic is what we call migratory joint pain, where one day it's my right shoulder, the next day it's my left knee, and then it's my right ankle. So when you've got this joint pain that wanders from joint to joint, as far as we know, there's no other condition out there that causes that kind of arthritis. So arthritis is really a big characteristic of Lyme. You know, there's actually upwards of about 100 symptoms associated with Lyme disease, and we call it the great imitator or the great mimic, just because a lot of these symptoms are very vague and they look like a lot of other conditions. So this is part of what contributes to the controversy of Lyme is that because it looks like so many other conditions, people often mistake it for something else, or they just go flat out undiagnosed completely.

And why is this not getting tested for? And how does someone get diagnosed with this?

Well, there is a blood test that's available, and unlike other types of infectious diseases that we can do testing for, the Lyme test just isn't very sensitive. You know, again, we know from the literature that the sensitivity of the test is somewhere about 43 to 50%, which means it literally misses half of the people that actually have the condition. And the testing that's available was actually not ever designed to be diagnostic. It was designed to monitor people that had known Lyme disease. So for the people that had all the classic symptoms, they wanted this blood test to be able to see how they were doing with treatment. And it was never really designed to be a diagnostic test. So to this day, Lyme disease is still what we call a clinical diagnosis. It really is based on reflection of signs and symptoms. So, again, you know, if your test comes back positive, false positives for this test are actually pretty rare, where false negatives are extremely common. So if you have a positive test and you have the symptoms, there's a pretty good chance you have Lyme disease. But if you've got the symptoms and your test comes back negative, you know, again, it doesn't exclude that possibility. So there are labs out there that are, I think, better equipped to test for Lyme disease. So for those of us in this world, we will use those specialty labs that have better sensitivity with their testing, and we feel like we get better results. But, you know, if some someone is really Suspicious that they might have Lyme. You really want to get in the hands of somebody who understands this because your regular primary care doctor is going to run the test through your local lab, and if it comes back positive, I mean, that's great. Then, you know. But if it comes back negative, you know, you might want to work with someone who's going to dig a little bit deeper and get that proper testing done.

And that pro, like I know, for my son, we had to send this off to Germany. Is that.

That's one of the labs? Yeah, that's called Armen labs. And their testing's a little bit different because it's not an antibody test. It's actually what's called a cytokine test. So it's looking at your immun. Immune response to the organism that's independent of antibodies. You know, the problem with antibody tests is that if you have a poor immune system and you don't really make antibodies, these tests really lose their value. So that particular test that your son had done is really helpful because it doesn't really matter how your antibody system responds. This is looking at a different part of the immune system, and that can be really valuable depending on where you are in your exposure. But we have other labs here in the US that do, I think, very good testing. We've got Igenex in Palo Alto, California. We've got medical diagnostics labs in Hamilton, New Jersey. So we've got a few labs out there, I think, that do much better testing.

Cool. And we'll get those and put them in the resources. What about. So if someone has gotten infected, do their symptoms go down over time? Like what you know? Or is this like you get infected and you're going to have these constant symptoms? Like what's.

Yeah, there's. There's incredible variability in how Lyme affects each person. So I always say, you know, your Lyme is your Lyme, and it's different than how it affects. Affects other people. So it's very hard to compare notes from person to person because it can affect them in very different ways. I had one patient years ago where her only symptom is she had a size of about a quarter on her cheek that went numb. And she had no other symptoms. Just because we lived in Connecticut. I tested her for Lyme, she came back positive. We treated her, and that little spot on her cheek went away. I have other people that. They've got terrible arthritis and nerve pain, and they're debilitated, they're in wheelchairs. So there really is a Wide variation in how Lyme affects you person. And, you know, it's really just a function of, you know, where you got exposed, how long it takes you to get the diagnosis. And I think, you know, the typical story of what I see in my practice are people that were probably exposed many years ago, it didn't get diagnosed, and now they're suffering from some of the long term consequences of it.

And so someone, you know, at some point whenever they get diagnosed. Is this something that you can fully recover from? Is it something that will always be there and you'll always have to do things? What's happening, you know, what's the deal with that?

Yeah, you know, recovery is possible. I think it's not a common theme in the Lyme community. I think a lot of people feel like once they get it, you know, they're hosed the rest of their life. But, I mean, I recovered. I've seen several patients who've recovered. It's a long process. And I think, you know, we've got a lot of differences of opinion in the Lyme community about the best way to approach it. I think, you know, the concept of, you know, look, this is an infection. We just need to treat the infection and everything's going to be fine. Again, this is not a sinus infection or bronchitis. You know, we have to treat it a little bit different. And we know that Lyme in particular has the capacity to trigger this sort of autoimmune reaction. So I realized, with my own personal experience and then having treated thousands of patients over the last 20 years, that, you know, if we start really approaching it as an autoimmune disease more than just an infection, we get much better results. So, you know, like a lot of other chronic conditions out there, it really is about the terrain, and we need to fix the terrain. So this is about what you're putting in your mouth, what you're eating, how are you taking care of yourself? Are you sleeping enough? So it's, you know, we've got this part of the protocol where we're addressing the Lyme organism directly, but, you know, we need to take care of the rest of the body to really get people over that hump. And if we can do that, you know, most of our patients do get to a point where they recover. The big question that everyone asks, though, is that, you know, do you ever get rid of Lyme completely? And unfortunately, we don't have the testing available to measure Lyme directly in your body. So I'm of the opinion that I don't think you do. I think it's kind of like when you get Chickenpox as a 5 year old, you can get shingles as a 55 year old and it's the same virus that's been in your body for 50 years. I think it's really about, about the way your body interacts with the organism. And we need to train your body and the organism to interact with each other so that you essentially don't bother each other. But I've seen cases of people who, you know, were symptom free from Lyme, some trauma came up in their life, you know, the death of a family member or whatever. And then, you know, the stress starts to provoke their symptoms again and they start to react. So I think, you know, Lyme does that have, has that capacity to be opportunistic?

Yeah. So makes so much sense. So beyond then just the things that we would think are kind of obvious, like sleep and stress and diet and exercise, I would assume that everything that you can do to be healthy are gonna be key in keeping it kind of Lyme at bay. But what specific stuff can someone do?

Well, you know, what I outlined in my book is really a five step plan that kind of walks people through that process. And we always start with the gut. The gut really is the cornerstone of health. And certainly for your immune, you know, we know that, you know, your gut for accounts for up to 80% of your immune system. So if your gut's not functioning well, it's going to be really hard for the rest of your immune system to do what you want it to do. So this is going through and making sure that you're eliminating properly. You've got good healthy bowel movements and stooling. So, you know, we start with that process of, you know, do you go to the bathroom every day? And if you're not, you know, there are very specific things, you know, we can do to help facilitate that. You know, are you magnesium deficient? Do we need to replenish that? Are you drinking enough water? Are you getting enough fiber in your diet? Do you have any food allergies that are creating some sort of low level inflammation in the gut? So I think it's really important that people start there, start with how their gut's functioning and then beyond that, diet I think is really very important. And there's again, a lot of differing opinions on which diet is optimal. And again, having worked with this for a long time, I really promote what's called an alkaline diet. And it's really a Mostly plant based diet with relatively limited animal protein, you know, about 20, 25% of your intake for the week. And eliminating of course, all the junk food and processed foods that just don't do anything good for your body. You know, we want to make sure that we're packing your, your diet with nutrient dense foods that provide you with all the vitamins and minerals that you need for your cells to repair themselves, for your enzymes to work the way they should. And again, I've got a whole chapter in the book that, that walks people through what that looks like very specifically so.

But it sounds like it's not about like you can't go and I mean, this isn't like you've got a bacterial infection, you're going off and killing it. It's really about calming it, I think.

So, you know, I think, you know, there's a lot of doctors that treat Lyme that really feel like, you know, if we can just kill it 100%, people will be fine. Again, we have no evidence that that happens. We have better evidence that there is a percentage of these Lyme organisms that are completely resistant to antibiotic therapy. We've got a lot of studies, particularly out of Johns Hopkins University, they've been looking at this, they call them persister cells. So for whatever reason these organisms are and they just don't react to those treatments. So do we ever get to a point where we killed 100% again because we can't measure it? We don't know for sure. But I've just seen so many people over the years that do really well and then they start to relapse later in life. And is it possible they just got another infection? Again, it's possible, but it just seems a little too coincidental that the timing of it happens with some life stressor. And it makes more sense to me that it probably is just a reactivation of something that's been dormant and then starts to come out as, again as an opportunistic infection.

And I just wonder, let's say you have someone who didn't test positive, but now we know that that doesn't necessarily mean anything. And then they went on some of the treatments that are supposed to get rid of some of this and they started to have some of that die off, does that signify that they did in fact have the issue?

Yeah, I think, you know, when you've got, if you're not sure and we do this sometimes and we'll do therapeutic trials of treatment with people that have questionable tests, but they've Got the clinical symptoms. And if you get that die off react, we call it a Herxheimer reaction. You basically feel flu, like tired, achy. That's a pretty good indication that you're hitting something. And so if you're instituting any kind of treatment and you get that die off reaction, there's a good chance that you're actually addressing the problem that you think the person has.

Okay, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So as I was telling you offline, my son, we are working with a new psychiatrist who's part of our Mindshare community, Dr. Kat Tupes, who in just listening to his history says, have you tested him for Lyme or Bartonella? And I'm like, no. You know, and believe me, we've taken my son everywhere, starting at the age of 5 and in never has been brought up. And we sent it off to Germany to Armand Labs and he showed up with both of those whatever, however that test shows these things. And then she started treating him. And at one point we actually had to back down on that because, you know, you titrate up the treatment. He started getting the Herxheimer reaction.

Yeah.

So I took it as yay, this is great. So, you know, I just looking at what are other ways, it's always challenging with these things because these symptoms could be so many different things. But it sounds like to me that if you've got low grade symptoms, if you've got all American immunity disease or maybe fibromyalgia or any of these things that just don't have a good explanation for why they're happening, that this is a place you should and you're not getting better, that this absolutely should be part of. The. Part of what you look for.

Yeah. And I think, you know, we see this a lot in these diagnoses that are really descriptions and very vague. You know, I mean, what is chronic fatigue syndrome? What is fibroid? What is, you know, Mississippi. You know, my own personal experience, you know, again, I had Lyme disease and you know, many years later really developed into Ms. So, you know, that's my latest thing I've been dealing with and I've had a lot of conversations with Terry Walls about this, you know, who's an Ms. Expert and also part of our mindshare community. And I spoke at her conference and it was amazing how many people were really unaware that Lyme and a lot of other microbes have been associated with, you know, multiple sclerosis. And we've got evidence in the literature to show this. So again, I Think it's something that's out of a lot of doctors minds. They don't really think about it. But if they dig a little deeper into the research, you know, we know that this is part of what happens. And it's funny because, you know, I've argued with neurologists about this and they said, well, no, they have Ms. I'm like, well, you can have both. I mean, it could be that Lyme is a cause of Ms. I certainly don't believe it's the only cause. But I think there is a percentage of people where that is their underlying issue. And I find, you know, for people who come into my practice who've been given these vague diagnoses, again, whether it's fibromyalgia or chronic fatigue, you know, when we start addressing, you know, this underlying infection or autoimmune problem, their symptoms improve. So that tells us that, you know, this diagnosis they've been given is really just the explanation of, you know, this underlying condition. And it's really, I think, something that we've been trying to educate other practitioners on, being aware of it with their patients. But you know, there's been resistance in the conventional medical community unfortunately. And for whatever reason, they're really just not reading this kind of research. Research.

I just don't, you know, I think that if, if the medical community could live by the critically open minded philosophy, you know, be, be critically open minded. Look at their research question because again, like, why is someone getting ms? Why is someone having a psych disorder? Why? Why? Why? Like, you know, and we have to, we talk about getting to the root cause, but the root cause is not, you know, that I'm pretty sure, you know, that you're just, just have a curcumin deficiency or whatever. You know, it's like, come on. So.

Well, you know, again, we were, we were talking offline beforehand about, you know, again, I've been working with a lot of women who are, you know, getting to that stage of life, you know, where their, their hormones are changing, maybe they're perimenopausal and you know, they think they chalk everything up that they're experiencing that. You know, I'm going through the change and my hormone levels are dropping and they go on hormone replacement and their symptoms don't get really any better. And this goes on for years in many cases. And then we come to find out that that hormone sometimes be a precipitating factor for these underlying infections really to kind of rear their ugly head. And so, you know, once we test Them, we find out they've had exposure to Lyme or Bartonella or Babesia or whatever it is and we address that. Oh yeah, now my hot flushes went away. My brain's working much better, My energy's much better. So I think, you know, when you've got these long standing symptoms that particularly if it's neurological and arthritic, that combination to me always makes me very concerned that there's whether it's Lyme or some other infection. Infection, but some sort of infectious agent that might be triggering those, you know, inflammatory processes that's affecting, you know, these different tissues. So, you know, again, if we can just do a simple blood test and, you know, try and rule it out, it makes such a big difference for people.

Awesome. Well, I'm going to be putting all of this into the show notes. So along with the link to your book, link to your website, if we can get the tests that you recommend, I know you're also going to give us some immune boosting recipes. Everyone, my community loves recipes.

Absolutely.

Super appreciate that as well. And we'll put all of that@jjvirgin.com forward/lime, which is spelled L Y M E for everybody. Lime. That would be super, super helpful. I just find all of this so fascinating. And it's. What's most fascinating with it is how it's being ignored, you know?

Yeah.

Like, so thank you for being out there, being such an advocate, being an expert, really on the cutting edge. You're one of the top experts out there on this. I know it's always challenging when you're bringing something that's kind of should be in the forefront, to the forefront could be a little challenging. So thank you for being out there doing this as we need you and many more of you. So hopefully you'll also start teaching, teaching other doctors too, because absolutely needs to happen. All right, thank you so much, Darren. Super appreciate your time today.

Great. Thanks for having me, jj. I appreciate it.

Sure. Now, after the break, I'm going to be giving you an action step. So stay with me. Me.

Some people think nature is like this, but actually it's like this. That's why Columbia engineers everything we make for anything nature can throw at you. Columbia engineered for whatever.

Hey, welcome back. All right, so this is where I give you that top takeaway. What should you do with this information you just heard? And I think this is like, this is like life saving information. So my big advice to you is if you've got low grade symptoms that nothing seemed to have worked for, it's your chance. It's your opportunity to go and get tested. And so we will have the tests in the show notes I also would highly recommend getting Darren's book. We'll have all the links again at jjvirgin.com line time but I rule this out. If this has been an issue for you, rule it out in one of the easiest ways. Obviously. Step one get the test. But if the test shows up negative and you still have these these symptoms, then you can go through the book or work directly with a doctor specializing in this like Dr. Darren and see how you feel as you start to do some of the stuff that causes the die off. Because like with my son, boom, first of all, he did show a positive, but when we did start doing the die off stuff, he noticed it as we started to elevate the amount because you titrated up over time. As we started to lift up the dose, he started to notice it and which made me super happy because it means we're making a difference. So again, use this as something in your toolbox here. If you or someone in your family is struggling and you don't know why, this is definitely one of the rocks to turn out over and again. JJ virgin.com lime L Y M E and one more big ask if you've not subscribed to the show yet, remember, we have three shows a week now. We have our guest interviews, we have our solos, and we have our Q and A Friday. So you do not want to miss out. Subscribe to jj. We'll let you know when a new show drops. And while you're there, love it. If you could leave a review, let me know what you think and let me know if there's something you'd like to know more about. And I'd love to give you a shout out too. All right, bye.

Hello listeners. This is Anne Bogle, author, blogger, and creator of the podcast what Should I Read next? Since 2016, I've been helping readers bring more joy and delight into their reading lives. Every week I check all things books and reading with a guest and guide them in discovering their next read. They share three books they love, one book they don't, and what they've been reading lately. And I recommend three titles they may enjoy reading next. Guests have said our conversations are like therapy, troubleshooting issues that have plagued their reading lives for years, years, and possibly the rest of their lives as well. And of course, recommending books that meet the moment, whether they are looking for deep introspection to spur or encourage a life change or a frothy page turner to help them escape the stresses of work, school, everything. You'll learn something about yourself as a reader, and you'll definitely walk away confident to choose your next read, with a whole list of new books and authors to try. So join us each Tuesday for what Should I Read Next? Subscribe now wherever you're listening to this podcast and Visit our website whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com to find out more.