Why Your Workout Isn't Working - A Revolutionary Approach to Menopause with Dr. Bill Campbell

Dr. Bill Campbell, welcome to my studio. Thrilled to have you back.

Yeah, I'm glad to be back.

Yeah, number 2 for me this time. I didn't tell you the door's locked. That's right. Well, you probably have a massive fan club you are not aware of because you are a PhD researcher scientist doing research, a dude doing research on menopausal women. Yes. This is like a landmark thing just in and of itself. Like, I can't think of any other guy out there that's decided this is gonna be his thing.

'Cause I heard you saying like, "This is it for me." Well, remind me, last time when I was here, we talked for a while off camera. How much was I talk— I know you know some of my wife's story, which I'll talk about.

Yes, which I would love to share with everybody why you're so interested in this.

Yes, but I don't, I think then I was just starting. Now we fast forward today, I've actually got, we're actually designing studies. I've got one approved. But man, whatever it is, this will be the next 30 years of my life. I am so passionate. And I'm still a fat loss researcher. So I haven't changed my skill set.

But that's what makes it even better because every woman has a big sigh of relief because we get out in the world, they say, oh, menopause doesn't cause weight gain. Maybe it doesn't cause weight gain, but it certainly causes body composition shift. You know, nothing changes with menopause. Your metabolism doesn't change till 60, all this kind of stuff. And that makes us all crazy. You as having the Only Physique Lab and being a fat loss expert. Like, it's perfect. But again, as a guy, it's kind of an interesting position for you to get all in on this. So tell everybody why you're doing that.

So I would like to say the reason is just because I'm so passionate about menopause itself. But like a lot of other people, it impacted me at home because of my wife's experience. So, my wife has been fit her whole life, lifts weights, and in her mid-40s, late 40s, she became what I have categorized as a train wreck. And by the way, she's given me permission to talk about this publicly, which my wife is not a public person at all. So, thank you, Jo, for letting me talk about this. The biggest things were a complete lack of energy. She had always worked out and liked working out. And in her words, she had to drag herself off the couch to go to the gym. Now she still went to the gym, but it was a her— you know, just a massive effort. Anxiety, night sweats, not sleeping at all. So, and a lot of weight gain relative to her starting body weight. So I would always—

which she hadn't really, I mean, she didn't have the energy she used to have to work out. So she probably wasn't working out as hard, but like there wasn't some big diet change.

No, no, no. She had always, I mean, obviously being married to me, we prioritize protein. So no, no big diet change. It was just what's going on. And she was ignorant. And the one person who was more ignorant than her about menopause was me. Like, I didn't know. Like, I think we talked before, like, we didn't know. And this is just a side note for a moment, why I'm so excited to now be researching this. There's such an opportunity to educate because I was very ignorant. And now, like I said, I cannot read enough. I noticed one of your books that which was titled Menopause. I've got tons of—

but it is fascinating. And I will tell you, I've got a friend in the health— I mean, all my friends are in the health space, let's be honest, except for a few other entrepreneurs. And one of them in the health space, I saw her last year. She looked— she's a little person and she put on 10 pounds. She's like, she looked like an entirely different person. She was anxious. She was like, I just, I think I'm just stressed out. I go, how old are you? She goes, 46. You know, she just figured it was stress because of all these things going on. I'm like, I literally had an estrogen patch that I put on her and I gave her some progesterone to go to bed that night.

She's like, "Oh my gosh!" I'm like, "I've got a doctor for you." How powerful were you though in her life to even just have that knowledge and the experience? Because again, we didn't have that. So the one thing was she gained weight and I'm like, "Well, you're married to a fat loss researcher. I can help with that." I couldn't help with that.

What did you try?

What we've always tried. We would try some type of diet, maybe adjusting exercise, reducing calories. And we, my wife has always at times dieted, but I've always been involved like, okay, let's do this. And it's always just like in my research studies, it always worked. This time we reducing and reducing and reducing. And I'm like, this is not normal. This is not working. So I'm like, I don't, I'm, I'm, I don't know what to do. Plus we had all these other problems. It wasn't just weight gain. In fact, that was probably the least of what she would prioritize, or at least what I would prioritize, like you have all this anxiety. She's just, she was not herself. So that started just a, okay, I've gotta, I cannot be a, what I believe, I'm one of the best fat loss researchers on the planet. If I can't help my wife, I'm not as good as I think I am. So that started this journey down, okay, what's going on physiologically, what's going on hormonally? And that takes me to today, and I'm still learning. I am not an expert.

We'll always be learning on this stuff, right? Yes, yes. Isn't that fun? Oh, it's so fun. It is what started so early on. I had my first clients were all in their 40s, and because they were all friends, like, so everyone was around 45. All the women around 45, all the men were around 55, which meant both were kind of getting into the messy times. Now, men, it's way easier. It's a slow drop for testosterone. Women, as you know, it's like this total, like, storm for years. And so everything I was learning in school— eat less, exercise more— didn't work. I'm like, I'm not going to get paid if you're not helping. Yeah, this is not going to work. And, and early on, I was like, you know, your body's not a bank account, it's a chemistry lab. And it's been really challenging to hear, like, everything's been, oh no, it's just, it's calories in, calories out. I go, sometimes, sometimes it is. But I think it's important that we look at your body's a bank account when everything's working well, and you still have to think of thermo— like, you, you can't— too much healthy food's unhealthy. But it's also a chemistry lab, and it's also a history book. You know, we got the toxins and the trauma and all that too. And so I started looking at what are all the reasons we could start to gain weight or just not be able to lose weight. And, you know, key in there is all of this stuff. So you're brave to take this on.

Well, yeah, I don't, I don't, I don't look at myself as brave. I just look at it as It's given me an energy that I did not— I love studying physiology and fat loss and performance, but the aspect of now changing the age demographic and let's just call it the menopause transition, it's opened up a whole world to me and I cannot get enough of it.

And you know what's very cool about this? I mean, the reality is, and back when I used to see people one-on-one, I go, I don't want some person in their 20s who wants to lose 10 pounds. That's boring. Anyone can work with them. Give me the weight loss resistant person in their 40s or 50s. That's like, give me the hard ones. So, and when you get this, I mean, the body composition is just a symptom of a whole lot of challenges that are going to affect your brain and your bone and your heart. So, you know, you fix the one thing, which is the one that they're going to want to fix, along with anxiety. Let's be honest, you know, you feel like you want to crawl out of your skin. Yes. And come back later. But you fix a whole lot of stuff. And I feel like it's exercise physiology is finally getting its due in the world of medicine because it's probably the biggest lever that we can pull as we move on.

So it's about time, right? You've been doing this, you're the pioneer, and you're finally getting your due from the medical establishment.

I finally— so, you know, starting out in exercise science and I go, oh, like, I mean, you got no respect. I feel like Rodney Dangerfield back then. And so I was like, okay, I'll do nutrition. And then I was like, okay, I'll learn all the functional medicine hormones. But now I'm like, I feel like it's full circle. I'm like, okay, let's go back to the exercise.

You're right, everything does seem to kind of cycle. Oh, I, I did want to make one— I like to think that I'm the king of context. Not all women are going to have the same experience as my wife. Some women go through the menopause transition and it is not bad. It's like they don't know what everybody else is complaining about.

And for you unicorns, feel fortunate. Yes, yes, be thankful, because I have not met many of them.

Um, and then I also want to say some women will have some problems, maybe not, or other problems than what my wife experienced. So it is one thing that I've learned to appreciate— there is no umbrella or catch-all in a one here.

I, I did see someone was just talking about menopause Symptoms, and they were— they had like categorized like 114 of them, and I was like, whoa, I know. So I'll tell you an interesting aside. I went to the dentist when I was in the middle of all this because I couldn't recover from the gym. That was my first sign. I was like, why am I poor and I can't recover? But my gums were bleeding. Okay. And I was like, what's up? And he's like, estrogen. And I go, estrogen? Yeah. So there are all these weird things.

Is that one of the 114?

That's one. Bleeding gums and ears. Itchy ears, bleeding gums.

Yeah. Wow. Yeah. I didn't know that.

I know. It's crazy. There's a whole lot of them. So, anyway. Alright. So, you decide to take this on. And so, what have you been getting into? Because I know you're doing a study of some sort right now or a survey or something, right?

Yeah. So, my approach has been I need to approach this very broadly. Again, I'm in the inform— which again, I will always be in the information gathering stage, but I need to start very broad. So what I've— one of the things I learned was we have a ton of research on menopause, thousands of studies. We actually now today have some research, more than a little bit, on female physiology or female and exercise science. When you try to merge them, there is nothing. So, I've challenged my team, my research team, I've challenged my followers. I said, find me a survey study about women who have, who live a fitness lifestyle that have gone through or are going through or are thinking about the menopause transition. Nothing. So, I, unbeknownst to me, I'm like, well, I guess we're doing the first female fitness menopause survey. So you have to be a woman who embraces the fitness, a fitness lifestyle.

And what does that mean? Because I, what I've seen is there does seem to be studies, though not menopause, more in like cycling women who are athletic, who are athletes, but that's such a small percentage of the population.

Yeah, that's true. And when you say that, every woman's going to go through menopause. So we're defining a fitness lifestyle to, to, to be in, to be eligible for our survey You have to be between 35 and 75 years old. And we're approaching this, we're like, hey, have you, what have you thought about? What are you currently going through if you're in perimenopause? Or what was your experience when you have gone through this? So that's the age range. And you have to have been resistance training for the last 6 months. So there's your ticket.

And resistance training twice a week, 3 times a week, are you defining it at all?

Yeah, we define it in the sense that it has to be not Well, let me say what— how we define it. It's barbell, dumbbell, cables, what I believe is traditional resistance training. Not bands, not certain types of Pilates movements, which I don't know Pilates that well. It has to be an external resistance that are— that's typically defined by barbells, dumbbells, cables, things like that.

Got it. Okay, and so what are you looking to what do you find from this survey?

We have different categories. So the, the main categories are demographics. So that's where we're going to categorize, are you pre, peri, or postmenopausal? And then we ask a bunch of questions about your fitness. What kind of resistance training do you do? What about your aerobic exercise? Do you do Pilates, yoga, other forms of exercise? Do you do agility and power training? So we have all of that covered. We have a nutrition section. Oh, and we also have like, hey, what, what, not really symptoms, but are you experiencing joint pain, things that would impact your motivation to train? And then we, we end with an, a hormone replacement therapy section. So let me just say, the goal of this is literally to give us data that we will then analyze, and that will guide me in the next study and the next study and the next study that will serve, because I can't serve Everybody. But I've always been a resistance training diet researcher. So I'm staying in the world that I know, and I'm now just saying, okay, formerly I studied young metabolically healthy women. Now we're studying women going through this phase of life. So it's just information gathering. It's to educate me and my team and then say, okay, where do we go next?

So you've looked at all of this research on menopause. Is there anything within all the research you looked at that stood out that could be helpful in looking at women and midlife metabolism?

Well, one, and I have not spoken publicly much about HRT. You remember last time we were here?

Oh yes, yes, yes.

That was one of the best conversations, drinking. So since then, I'm much more educated, but I'm very, I can talk about resistance training, exercise, diet, HIIT training till all day, all week, all month, all year. That's— I could— I just— that's what I've done. When I decided to say, okay, I want to start helping with hormone replacement therapy and bringing value to people, now there's not just— it's always health. Exercise is always health. Protein going from suboptimal to optimal is always going to be health-promoting. I need to— I want to be careful because hormones Not every single person should be taking HRT. Now, I do believe that most are eligible and that people do not consider that for whatever reason when they should, but I've been very slow and even slower to talk about it publicly because I want to make sure that I'm speaking from the evidence, and the evidence is vast. So I don't know if that answered the question, but I am not ashamed to say, "I don't know yet." Here's one thing I've learned. I've learned that a lot of people are scared of HRT and they don't know why, and they're not even willing to consider it. And if there's one thing that I could help people or help women is this: it's always a decision between you and your evidence-based physician to take HRT, hormone replacement therapy. But if you're not gonna take it, what are the reasons why not? And there may be great reasons that are between you and your physician. But again, I've just seen a reluctance, not always an ignorance, just a reluctance. No, I'm not doing that. And again, I'm a scientist, so I ask questions. Well, why? Well, just because. And a lot of times it's going back to the Women's Health Initiative study.

It's 99% of the time. Yes. It's going back to the Women's Health Initiative study. I had this one woman come up to me after I'd done a talk, and she goes, okay, I'm, eating my protein first. I'm eating the amount you're talking about. I'm doing resistance training like you're talking about. I'm doing HIIT like you're talking about. I'm getting sleep like you're talking about. I cannot shift this belly fat, this visceral. I cannot shift it. She goes, the only thing I'm not doing that you talked about was HRT because I want to do this naturally. I go, well, this is what naturally is getting you.

That's a great answer.

I was like, and hey, kudos to you though, real quick.

What a great educator you've been for this person. How much— where would her health be without following you, reading your books like that? I love that. So hey, 4 out of 5 is not bad.

Well, so there are some amazing doctors, and I think when someone's going to go work with their evidence-based doctor to make a decision about this, you have to make sure it's actually a doctor that knows the evidence.

Yes, in this area.

Yes, I mean, so most don't— I don't— and Really, what I thought was crazy is that we don't even have, you know, that there's a menopause society, but most of the OB-GYNs were not trained in menopause. Like, this is crazy. I had a girlfriend who was an endocrinologist who got in trouble as an endocrinologist because she was working in menopause. She's like, I'm a hormone doc, you know. She's a thyroid fellow, but they were like, oh, you can't work there. I'm like, well, who can then, you know? So I have some amazing doctors. We've had them on the podcast, like Dr. Felice Gurr, Dr. Jen Simmons. Dr. Jen Simmons is a breast cancer doc who now is working within this area so that she can help people who've had breast cancer who can be on, because it's not prohibited. And then women who— Felice is specializing in what she's calling— I go, I just hate that word— but geriatric hormone replacement therapy, starting women. Because one of the challenges with the studies is they will say, well, if you don't start it within X amount of time, you lost the window. Go, well, you didn't. You won't be able to unfry the egg of, like, some of the bone mineral density loss. And, you know, but, you still can go on.

It's not hopeless.

It's not hopeless. It's not hopeless. So I think you have to look at risk-reward of, okay, what are the things that estrogen does, which, you know, anabolic, builds muscle, great brain, it's like nature's Prozac, it's cognition, it's bones, it's heart. When I worked in— when I used to see people one-on-one, I worked one day a week out of a cosmetic surgery institute where they would come in and first thing I'd see is their labs before I saw them. The doctors send them in, and I could tell if they were on hormone replacement therapy or not. If they were 60 and they weren't on hormone replacement therapy, you'd see their cardiovascular markers, like, all just go sideways, you know. It was wild. And there's inflammation and all of it. So I do think it's something that we have to— like, there's so much emotion. It's like GLP-1. There's all these weird emotions around. I'm like, could we look at the facts here instead and then make a very smart risk risk-reward decision here with it. I mean, I think, you know, I had like doctors all around me as I was going through my own journey and I was on it from day one.

Like, I'm close. Lucky me. Yes, you were fortunate, but you were a scientist. You think like, you were asking the questions to the right people. Again, just one of the most surprising things is a reluctance and they don't know why they're reluctant. And it's like you don't have to suffer if you're eligible for this.

Well, I think that's the key thing. Now, whether or not someone's going to do hormone replacement therapy, based on what you've seen so far, what would be the things that you would be advising someone who is perimenopausal? What would you be advising them to do? Because whether they're on hormones or not, you want to make sure they're doing all the right stuff to support them.

So one, I would still say, hey, you need to speak to your evidence-based physician for these decisions. But let me tell you what I've learned through reading the research.

But the diet and lifestyle stuff, that is way more your— Yes. Your campground than their campground. Like exercise and diet, like everyone's now prescribing exercise.

Oh, you're okay.

Yeah, that's the stuff. I'm like, so take HRT out because whether they're going on it or not, these things don't change. In fact, I would argue that you want to be using the lowest doses of these things as possible. So you have to do all the supporting stuff, right?

Yeah, and that's a very key foundational principle. You want to have all of the foundational habits taken care of, the low-hanging fruit. So, are you physically active? And we'll talk about the best types. Are you prioritizing sleep? Are you getting enough protein? So, those are like, that's just the 3. So, are you, and I'll just say, are you lifting weights? If you can lift weights, please lift weights, especially when you're a younger woman, to prepare yourself for what's coming. So resistance training would be the priority type of movement. Doesn't mean you have to like it, but do some form of it. Do it one day a week. You get a lot of benefit even if it's not every day.

What would be your perfect, perfect resistance training prescription? If someone listening is like, I want to be the A student here, what should I be doing?

So I would approach that through a physique perspective. So not necessarily, hey, I'm trying to run an ultramarathon or a marathon, or I'm playing—

this audience is not in that big athlete sector. These are people who want to be healthy, they want to play full out, they want to be able to do things as they age. What do we need to do to like keep it going?

So basing this on a body part perspective, so we have quads, we have chest, we have lats, our back, rhomboids, glutes. My advice would be to stimulate each muscle group 2 times per week. So that can be done a lot of different ways, but at a minimum, lift weights 2 times per week, and each of those would be a whole body routine. Or if you can work out, let's say, up to 6 days per week— and I don't lift 6 days per week— but then you can start getting into a lot more options. So 3 days per week, you might do an upper, upper body day, a lower body day, and a whole body day. A very common split for 4 days per week is push-pull upper day, lower body day. So in general, try to make sure you're, you are training each body part twice per week, and that can be done 2 days per week up to 6 days per week.

Now for women, when we look specifically that we want to have strength and power. I have a great study. I don't know if you've seen this study. Rhonda Patrick published it in Found My Fitness, showing that, that power is like one of these big determinants of longevity. And they were looking at skinny people with low power, you know, people with higher power, and it is way worse to be thin and, you know, not have the power than to be obese and have the power. Yes. So, but when I look at like What do we need as we age where, you know, I'm thinking balance, I'm thinking agility and power, muscles, muscle mass, and also strength. What would be some specific things, some specific exercises that you think are just awesome for this age group?

Yes. And let me just say strength. So when you're lifting weights, half of the power equation is strength. So you are actually training for power even if you don't realize you are by lifting weights. But when I think of power production, and I recently— I know we talked about this before— in the last year and a half, I started— I'm almost 50 years old— I started being very specific. I need to do power training. So I look at lower body and upper body activities. So the best forms, and again, these are more advanced, but I'll just say them, would be like plyometric jumps. Can you explosively jump from the ground up onto a box, or can you explosively just jump and try to touch the ceiling even if the ceiling's 20 feet tall? So just what's ex— what can you do explosively? So jumping is an easy thing to do. Another one for the upper body that's relatively easy would be a medicine ball and just throwing it as hard as you can against the wall. So anything explosive. If you can do like push-ups, you can do like— now don't just do push-up, but try to actually push yourself and maybe clap in between. Now again, these are more advanced, but these are the things— this gives the concepts of training for power and explosive activity. And I may have mentioned this before, but when you think of— and I actually, I did this, maybe this was during one of my wife's doctor's appointments. We were at— we were next to a geriatric medical facility. And I was waiting in the car and just one thing that I noticed, everybody going into the facility was just moving slowly. They weren't well. So that really impressed me. Now I teach my university students. If you're not well, and as you age, everything about aging is slow and snail, turtle. So the opposite of that is power training, explosive. So as much as you can do that. Oh, and let me also give one more context here just about women going through the menopause transition. And I'm always thinking of my wife when I say this. You may be currently in a position or a state where you can't do any of this. Your energy, your anxiety, depression is so bad. You're like, thanks, Dr. Campbell. Yeah, I should squat. I should jump over boxes. I can't get off the couch. And to that, I want to say, these are aspirate— let's get you from here. And I emphasize with— or I have empathy for where you're at now. Let's get you to where you can do this. It might not be right now. So then I would say, well, what can you do? Let's do that. But the goal would be to get you to these high-end physical movements.

And I love that you're saying this because the side benefit, you know, I think women think a lot about bone mineral density, and to me that's a lagging indicator of, of poor quality muscle. Like, if you are doing the things that are going to build strength and power, you are going to put the stress on your bones to have good bone mineral density. Yes. So it's sort of like looking at your blood sugar, and if you just fixed your insulin sensitivity, you wouldn't have an issue with your blood sugar. You know, it's the same thing here. This is so good for bone density. And I bring it up because I was listening to a podcast and it was some guy saying, oh no, you shouldn't be doing any of that jumping because that's risky. And I'm like, no, life is risky. We do these things in controlled environments so that life is— gets less risky.

Yeah, as fitness professionals, we don't tell people do this day one. We start with very low-impact things and we build up to And again, when I say jump up on a box, that's a high end. We work up to that. This just happened today. I have a bad back ever since playing college basketball. And over the last 5 years or so, I just found myself not jumping, like not jumping over a log when I see it going for a walk with my kids. I'm like, I don't want to hurt my back. And then for the last year and a half, I've been prioritizing power movements. So today I was with my daughters. My younger daughter, who's just a bound full energy, we're getting off this bus and she jumps off the last step and she just jumps. And I'm like, that's gonna hurt my back. I'm like, actually no, I've been jumping for the last 6— I jumped and it was, it was a, it was such a good feeling for me because I would have avoided that a year ago. But because I've been training like this, I'm like, yes, I'm back. So to speak.

And that is exactly it. It's like the less you do, the less you can do.

Yes, yes. Can I steal that? Yes, you can.

All right.

And the more you do, the more you do. Oh, I just— who would have thought that jumping off the last step of a bus would have made some— I was so happy today. Like, it's, it's stuck in my head.

So you walked by my gym, and one of the things that I did, you know, blowing out my knee and then my hip and everything else, I stopped running. And then I saw— did you see the meme going on the internet about how like you know, people over the age of 30, like 5% of them will ever sprint again. And I'm thinking, oh no. Well, there was no backup for it, but I'm like going, but wait, I was looking at my own life thinking I've sprinted once in the last couple like years and it was because Bryce was playing soccer and they challenged the parents and I proceeded to pull a hamstring.

But you won though.

We did, but we all were like trashed. So I was like, you know what, I'm going to get a sprint treadmill because I can actually sprint on that treadmill. And I did it today. I hate it. It hurts. Yeah, but you know, when you do hard things—

yeah, I'm the same way. Like, I squat once a week. I don't like squatting.

I hate squatting, but I do it too.

Yes. And as soon as I'm done, I'm like, that was— it's much more of a mental win, right? And I think all these other men my age, they're not squatting, they're not putting a barbell on their back. So again, I have that. But yes, there's this fallacy, I think, that fitness people— oh, they like to exercise. I don't. I do not like to exercise.

There you have it. Well, I mean, squatting, like, literally, I work myself into it. And, you know, having a knee replacement and a hip replacement, like, I have to do this. And that is what I think of, like, you have a bad back, you have to do those things because otherwise it's going to get worse.

Yes.

I was taught— this is so ridiculous too— like, here I was getting this biomechanics degree, and we were taught, you know what, you should only do forward flexion, don't do extension if you have a back problem. And I'm like, Well, wait a minute, maybe that would cause a back problem. I think that you're going to get worse. I was like, I think I'm going to do the opposite of what you're teaching us to do.

Again, pioneering the industry.

I was like, are you working with humans or are you just doing studies in a lab? What are you doing? Okay, so we've got the first part, which is really building muscle strength and power. And then what's your take on just, you know, cardio in general? Because this is —this is the default mode for women, of course, as you know, is to do cardio. Yeah, and maybe a little Pilates or yoga.

That's the default mode. Yes, and I like all of them. I am in favor of moving your body and improving mobility, flexibility. So all of them.

Do you like yoga? No, I know, I was like—

but I have never— I don't think I've ever even done it, but I'm open to— yes, I keep thinking I'm gonna do this because I think it would help my—

I think honestly the best thing that 50-plus-year-old people can do is yoga. And I started doing it a couple years ago because I got yoga shamed. And I was like, all right, okay, so I'll do it if I made Tim come do it with me. And then he bailed out after a while. Now he's back again because getting through his hip replacements, it's, it's— and you would never do these things otherwise.

And see, that right there tells me I should, right? That's exactly it. Yes. So I need to, maybe I need to be shamed a little more to get me to the threshold. What was the question?

Okay, so the question is like in the cardio thing, is there a way to approach cardio because, you know, there's all these different types of HIIT protocols or zone 2, there's like, and then there's all this conversation about women shouldn't do zone 2 or maybe they should do zone 2 or they need to do HIIT training but they have to do HIIT training this way. Like, and I think we're kind of starting to major in some minors out there and then people don't do anything because they're confused.

Yes, yeah. So I'm literally starting, I just printed off some articles this past week. I want to have a more informed opinion on this for the menopause transition and early post-menopause female. I don't have an opinion yet because I haven't done the reading yet. In general, in terms of improving body composition, all forms of aerobic activity are an amazing fat loss stimulus. They, it breaks down fat and it burns fat. One of the concerns that I so far haven't been able to, to just to validate in the research is this long duration aerobic activity might not— it might overtax a woman going through menopause when her body is already not recovering well. So you're adding more and more stimulus when she has less and less of an ability to recover. Now I'm not saying that's fact. I'm saying that those are the arguments that I'm hearing., and I'm trying to validate that right now.

Yeah, and I think we hear, you know, well, you could, you know, because the cortisol exercise thing is always interesting because it's like, well, if you were going to talk about all the things that happen acutely during exercise, you'd never exercise because it looks like you're having a heart attack and dying. Yeah, that's true. You know, it's like, yes, cortisol comes up and then it's going to come down lower.

Yes, blood pressure comes up, but what you— if cortisol does not rise, that's a problem. That is a problem.

You're not going to get anywhere. But I think when I look at more steady-state cardio, I always think, well, I'd love you to take some of that time and put it into resistance training. And I'd also love you to take some of that and put it into HIIT training. Have you seen research showing that HIIT training is more beneficial for, for visceral adipose tissue?

I have. I have to look into that more.

I sense that I've seen a little bit on that, so I think that might be the case. Like, you look at as we start to go through menopause and estrogen's dropping and now we can't contract as well, we lose power output and become more insulin resistant and more inflamed, which, you know, you're more inflamed, like contract muscles. Yes. You'll drop the inflammation.

And one thought on the high-intensity interval training. Based on the little bit of reading I've done in this population and in talking to other experts, a common recommendation is to think of it more as sprint interval training where it's very high intensity and then for not many repetitions, and you're getting a really powerful stimulus on the body for fitness, and you're, you're not really adding a ton of fatigue onto the body that you might have more problems recovering from during this transition. So high-intensity interval training where you're doing 8, 10, and I'm gonna sprint for 60 seconds and then I'm gonna walk for a minute, and I'm gonna do 10 rounds of that. That's— that could be defined as high-intensity interval training, but that's a lot of fatigue, a lot of work on the body that— where you may already be struggling to recover from. Where if you did 2 or 3 sprint intervals, you're still hitting that top-end output and you're not just taxing the body as much. So you're getting Basically, all of— a lot of the benefit and not as much of the drawbacks. But that's what I'm actively trying to read and research right now.

I would love you to figure this one out because what I'm trying to find out is, you know, if you look at the different sprint protocols like the Wingate, 30 seconds all out, hard as you can, and then— that's brutal. Horrible. Horrible. I hated that. And like when we did in the lab and then 3 and a half minutes recover, do it again. I just did 30-second all-outs this morning and then walked it off. And did it again.

Are you sprinting? Are you— okay, sprinting.

So sprinting 30 seconds, sprint it on that thing. Yeah. But then there's the what's best for lactate production and what's best for VO2 max in that Norwegian 4x4 one where you do 4 minutes of like 80% of your max heart rate and then 3 minutes easy and repeat it 4 times. And so I'm kind of trying to make sense of, okay, well, lactate production is going to help you know, with mitogenesis, they'll help your heart and your brain and better mitochondria and better, you know, brain function. But is it too much? And would you be better off doing these really high— and when we think sprinting, it's like bigger than your max, like it's—

yeah, it's hard. Yes, it's really hard. The nice thing about sprinting, you get all of the VO2 max benefits in a very short period of time. So if time is an issue going again.

So you don't need that lactate buildup?

Well, no, you would— I mean, well, it depends on how long the sprints are. If you're— if whatever your sprint protocol is, if it's more than 15 seconds, think of a Wingate, you're getting a massive spike in lactate. If it's 30 seconds, that becomes painful.

And then if you did repetitive, you'd keep some around. And explain why lactate matters. I feel like this is kind of a new emerging thing for people.

Yeah, and I think —And I have not studied this. This is— I think Peter Attia has very much popularized this. And it's funny, since he's been talking about this, it's really generated interest in our lab where we offer this type of testing.

So you do lactate testing?

JONATHAN HUNSAKER] Well, my lab does. I don't. When I say my lab, my university, our exercise science. We do VO2 max testing, Wingate testing. We do these. So I believe his standpoint is for the same reasons earlier. You're getting all of the physiological benefits. Benefits relative to VO2 max that traditionally people thought, I have to run for 2 hours or 3 hours to do this. No, you just have to work. You have to get the intensity level up. When you get lactate levels up, just generally speaking, that is great for mitochondrial health. And mitochondrial health is essentially metabolic health, insulin sensitivity being the, the main output of this.

And I still hear it out there, you know, people still talking about lactic acid. So explain lactic acid versus lactate, why lactate's important, and then why VO2 max matters.

Yes, and again, I'm a little outside my expertise here, so I'm just going to try to summarize what I think I know on this. So lactic acid— technically, our bodies aren't generating lactic acid, they're generating lactate. I, I, I don't think it's—

I don't think it matters. So, well, it's that whole thing we always used to say, oh, you're burning up, it's lactic acid. It's not. Yes, it's lactate.

It's the difference of a hydrogen ion. I don't get upset if people use one word.

Oh, people get like, you get really blown out in the exercise.

Yeah, yeah, they do. I'm like, okay, I won't say it. Yeah, I'm not in this area, but lactate is the correct term. And by the way, when you're exercising, if you ever feel that burning sensation in your muscles, you're generating lactate. It's good, that's good. Very good. And essentially, again, that's because your muscles are having to work at a level where the oxygen that you're getting in from the atmosphere, you're not be able to get enough in. And your body says, okay, you're not giving me enough oxygen. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to, if I'm going to continue exercising at this level, this intensity, I need to generate a byproduct, which essentially buys me some time. And that byproduct is lactate. So when you are generating lactate, that's just an indication that your body is not getting enough oxygen that you, that you need to sustain that power output. And we know that you can't do this for 5 minutes, 10 minutes. When you start to build up lactate, you aren't going to exercise much longer. And again, just think of that as improving metabolic health.

And then this lactate can be a fuel source for your heart and your brain. So it's amazing. It's something we want to push. Yeah. And isn't— did you know George Brooks? Didn't know him because I didn't go to Cal. Okay. Yeah. But in summer school.

But I mean, I know who he is. Yeah. Because he— we used to think, and again, this is even before I was in grad school, but we used to think that lactate was just kind of a waste.

And we're like, oh, it's good. That lactate shuttle that he—

Yes. So he showed us no, lactate The heart uses lactate for energy. Your muscles use lactate. And we used to think, "Nah, it just goes to the liver and gets converted to glucose." So that's only been in the last 30 years that we have found out how useful lactate is just in energy production. Again, it's not just a metabolic waste product. It's the body oxidizes it or uses it for energy.

Yeah, so this is why we want to feel that, that burn is a good thing. It's like rejuvenating and regenerating. Yes, mitochondria. Okay, so that's, that's that piece of it. I think what's really interesting, like, when you look at overall metabolic health and longevity, like, the single biggest marker that, that we should be really testing for that we're not is VO2 max.

Yeah, I've, I've heard that there are many associations or correlations with one's VO2 max level, and we can define what that is.

Yeah, let's define what it is 'cause I haven't done that.

So VO2 max, other words that scientists use are aerobic capacity or maximal aerobic uptake, maximal oxygen uptake. So essentially what that is, it's your body's ability to take in oxygen and utilize it. So the more oxygen you can breathe in from the atmosphere and utilize to produce energy, the more fit you are. And again, what we've learned recently is the higher your VO2 max, or the more fit you are, the greater healthspan you have. I don't know about lifespan, but let me just focus on health— the, just the greater amount of quality life you will have as you age. That's, that's what the, the association research would tell us. And again, yeah, we used to think, oh, you're either fit or you're not, and it doesn't have much of an impact. It seems to have a lot of impact.

It's wild right now when you look at the research coming out, just that power output research that, that I just was reading, and then the grip strength and push-ups and jump height and VO2 max, and all of them they're starting to do, okay, well, here's a correlation between these and all-cause mortality, you know, waist circumference, all-cause mortality, grip strength, you're like, wow. So just being fit—

oh, and by the way, resistance training does not help VO2 max at all. So resistance training is important. Again, we both prioritize resistance training, but you're not going to improve your aerobic capacity, your VO2 max, with resistance training. That is interval training, sprint interval training, aerobic exercise, being aerobically fit.

So if you did resistance training in kind of a high-intensity functional training way, where let's say you did a set of squats and then maybe in between you did like some up and then you did— could you do resistance training in a way that could help with VO2 max?

I would suggest, yeah, if you're— are you— I would ask the question, are you out of breath? Are you gasping for air during this routine? And what you just described, you would be out of breath when I do squats, aren't you? I, for a little bit, but I take long rests in between, so I'm always, I'm always fully recovered.

I think one of the challenges with resistance training, and where I like to to do more supersetting types of things is if you really want to hit strength, you'd take longer rests. Yes. Yep. And so, but if you take longer rests, then you lose any of that potential.

You're getting— not— yes, traditional resistance training, do a set, take 2 or 3 minutes, that is not, that is not facilitating improvements in VO2 max. But what you described is more what I would call like cross-training, functional training, It's more conditioning almost. You're getting some benefits of resistance training and some benefits of VO2 max.

So what I've been doing is going to the gym and doing really hard. Like, I'll do that. Like, I would lift weights every single day and just do that. I can't stand HIIT training and all the rest, but I don't let myself do that. I like— I would just default to resistance training. I make myself do yoga once a week. Yeah, I'm going to continue to harass you about that.

Shame me. I will. Is Tim still doing it or is he out?

So he was out and I was really bummed about that, but then he had that hip replacement. And when I had my knee and hip replacement, I did my own PT because I used to work in physical therapy. And I really, I remember going back into the doctor, he goes, "Okay, now you're cleared to go to the gym." And I was like, "Thanks, 2 months ago." Thank you, but you told me there was nothing I could do to hurt it. So I just went and did what I wanted to do. And yoga was a huge thing for it because you have to push range of motion. You know, and so he's been back in now for a couple weeks, and what a difference already. So, you know, but he did— he at one point, he looked at me, goes, I'm out, I'm done, I'm not coming back. And I'm like, okay, you big baby.

Yeah, I just could see that being me as well.

I could see that. It is. But you know what, these are the things we have to do. We have to do the things that we wouldn't do on our own. Yes. Yep. And so when I really focus on doing high-intensity interval training, because it's not my— it's not my love language, man. Like, resistance training is. But one of the things that I've been doing once a week is I do high-intensity functional training. So like today, I'm doing box jumps, and then I get— I do power plate mountain climbers, then I do up-downs. I did some sprints on the, the treadmill. I did kettlebell swings. Yep. So I'll do all of that kind of stuff, and it's hard, and I'm out of breath. And it's— I'm not going to get like, you know, PRs on my resistance training, but it does— it is hard.

Oh yeah, very hard. Yes.

So that's how I throw it in there. Okay, so we've got resistance training key, doing some kind of high-intensity interval training. You're going to be doing some research so that we can know exactly the best type.

Yeah, so that I feel— yes, in this population. Yes, we need you to do that.

So just kind of throwing out the wish list of what we need here. We need that. Then what are your diet recommendations?

So I embrace a protein-anchored diet. So I know we're in agreement.

Protein anchored.

That's good. And I've literally— this came to me yesterday doing some research on protein. I'm going to designate protein as the menopause nutrient. Yes. And why would I do that? Well, because everything that the menopause transition introduces our bodies to, protein helps with. So let's just, let's just mention them. First of all, globally, as we age, our bodies do not utilize protein as efficiently as we did when we were younger. So what does that mean? It simply means we need more as we age.

And is this purely a function of aging or is it aging plus sedentary? I'm assuming that would compound it.

No, I'm under the impression it's aging alone and it's males, females. What happens is, it's really intriguing, if you, when you're younger and you eat protein, let's just say, I'll just give a, you eat 100 grams of protein just to make the numbers easy. 80 grams of that will go through the digestive system and out into the, what we call peripheral circulation, which means the muscles have access to it and they'll take it and they'll use it use it for muscle protein synthesis. As we age, less of that protein that we're consuming gets into the peripheral and it stays in the digestive system. Splanknik sequestration is what scientists call this. So the protein, 100 grams when we're 55, instead of 80 of it being available to the muscles— I'm just giving arbitrary units here— maybe only 50 go out to the muscles. So the way that we essentially treat this is we need more protein. We need to eat 130 grams to get 80 available.

Well, and then what happens if the type of protein you're eating is not as digestible? Yeah, and that's, that's interesting.

Soy protein, even when we're young, soy protein stays in the digestive system more than animal-based proteins. Now again, soy protein is a high-quality plant-based protein, but it's more sequestered in the digestive system. So if it's not as bioavailable, it's exactly what happens. It doesn't become available to the muscles to be able to use to build muscle. So there's the first thing, just an aging thing. The second thing is what happens to our— to a female's body during menopause, which is two things. It's kind of reverse body recomposition. The female body will gain body fat and start to lose lean mass. And when you optimize protein intake, that gets flipped on its head. Optimizing protein intake builds lean mass even without a resistance training stimulus, which surprises me. And it can cause fat—

or it has— but it's probably not building muscle, is it? It is. It is.

It is building lean mass. And, and we know that because we can look at two different, two different research evidences. One, we are building lean mass as evidenced by DEXA or ultrasound, and then we can look at the cellular level and we see that muscle protein synthesis levels are significantly increased.

What about, is there any change in muscle qual— like if someone was exercising or not, like can we tell, like grip strength, would there be an improvement in grip strength independent of any working out if they—

I don't think that research exists, but I don't think you're going to have a training effect without a training stimulus. But we are building real muscle, which again, I didn't think you can build muscle without— with just protein. But multiple studies—

what you just said is important because while you may build lean mass, that you are not building quality muscle. So don't think you can sit on the couch and eat protein and get away with it.

No. But if—

yes, please exercise. PSA on that.

But if you're eating 50, 60 60, 70 grams of protein today, and you can get that if you can double that depending on your body weight.

And you can. Yes. You can. Like this, this whole thing of like, I can't eat that much protein. Yes, you can. Just eat it first. Yeah, prioritize it. You can eat it first. So, so the difference then between, say, animal-based protein and plant-based protein, if someone was doing more plant-based, they definitely would have to be eating more of it.

Yeah, just get more. And that's fine. Like, if, if you prefer plant-based protein Great. My advice would be just eat more of it so that you're getting more— one of the— leucine is a very important or anabolic amino acid. Just eat more so you get more of the important anabolic amino acids.

I have been really digging into the research on essential amino acids because to me it just makes logical sense that if you added that in, especially maybe in the morning with breakfast,— or even better, breakfast and dinner, especially for the light protein eaters— that it's like an insurance policy to make sure you're getting what you need and getting the leucine that you need. Thoughts on that?

So my dissertation was on branched-chain amino acid supplementation, so this rings home.

You did not know this? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

So if you are getting optimal protein in your diet, adding extra branched branch chain amino acids or even essential amino acids will not add an added benefit. But if you are, if you're somebody who doesn't eat optimal protein, adding in essential amino acids is a great decision. It's awesome. A little less so with branch chain amino acids, but still a better if you're not gonna get optimal amount. I always like to say, hey, just aim for an optimal amount, which is between 0.75 grams per pound of ideal body weight and ideally 1 gram per pound of ideal body weight because one, we need more as we get older, and two, if you don't hit that goal, you're definitely going to be above the 0.75 grams per pound.

Right, but that, and then plant-based, you definitely have to be at the higher. But you look at what most women are getting, like 60 grams of protein in a day or something.

I just, I just, just looked this up through multiple nutrition records in the SWAN. It's called the Study of Women's Health Across the Nation. Awesome. It's all about women's menopause research. 70 grams of protein per day is the average. 70. And it's about their— what that is relative to the average body weight is 0.45 grams. So essentially we can say half. They're getting half of the protein they need. And I'll tell you, if you're eating that, which if your average woman in her 40s and 50s is eating only that, if you just increase that to optimal levels, Research says you will build muscle and you will lose body fat.

That alone. There you go. And I love situations where you can add. You don't have to focus about taking away, you just add that in. Yes.

And again, when I was a grad student, I wouldn't have believed this. Like, you can't just increase protein and build muscle and lose fat. Where's the stimulus? But multiple studies have shown this.

Multiple. Now, I know this is one that there's like, the research is sketchy on at this point, but I would love your thoughts on this because I know that there's not a lot of research yet. But you know, the idea of when you need to eat this protein, how should it be timed? Should it be timed around your workout? Like, do you need to evenly distribute it? I know there was the recent one about the 100 grams all at once.

Yes, like, like, that was a really good—

like, oh my gosh. So how should someone be consuming this do you think right now with the information at hand? Like, how important is it to eat before or after a workout? You know, so let's break into fasted workouts, non-fasted, and distribution.

So I got it. This is my research career right here. The most important thing— I'm going to give 3 different levels: most important, next most important, and then least important. Most important is that you get the optimal amount of protein over the course of a day. So if I weigh 200 pounds, my number one goal is to get 200 grams of protein by the end of the day. That is, that if you do, if you just focus on that, you're doing the best thing. The next most important thing to optimize this protein to help us build lean mass is to approximately get an equal dosage of this protein across 3 to 5 protein feedings per day. So I just like to base that on lifestyle. 3 and as many as 5. And again, it's not ideal to— let's just say I need 200 grams. It's not ideal that I get all 200 grams in one meal. It would be better if I had 50 grams breakfast, lunch, dinner, and then maybe 50 grams post-workout. And why would that be? Because research has shown us, and this is relying on 2, maybe possibly 3, if I think of another one, studies in humans that have adjusted the, the distribution. And when it wasn't approximately equally distributed, the subjects were not gaining as much lean mass. So this is a lean mass outcome decision. Now the least important thing of these is eating this around the workouts. You do not have to prioritize protein around the workouts. We just published a paper on this in resistance-trained males.

What about— because the, the buzz out there is that it's different for women, but I, yeah, I don't know, you know, it's like it— because that's what, you know, back, back in the day, everything was about that anabolic window. Yes. And what you needed to eat, and you better have—

I do have a statement on that. When it's— well, first of all, I don't— I'm not aware of any studies on protein timing in women, but I don't think it would matter because you would now have to convince me that a female's physiology is different than a male's in terms of how it responds to resistance training, which it doesn't respond differently, and that their body responds differently to protein, which I don't— I'm not aware of that happening either. Now, when I say the most important thing is total amount and then trying to break that up into equal portions throughout the day, and then the least important variable is around the workout, I still prioritize— I still get protein after my workout. So why do I do that if I say it's not important? Well, one, I need to eat pro— I'm gonna eat protein anyway, so why not make one of them after my workout? And the research, it's never harmful. It's just that it hasn't been shown to increase the amount of muscle when we're getting an optimal daily amount. So there's all of that. In terms of, you said it's different in women, I haven't seen that research, and And let me say, there's no harm. I get— I prioritize protein after my workout. That's what I have, a whey protein shake or a Fairlife milk after a workout. That's what I personally do. But you know what, if I forgot to or I don't have protein, I, based on the research, I don't feel like, oh man, that workout was wasted. Far from it. If I got my— if I was— as long as I hit my daily protein goal.

The thing around fasted workouts, fasted. And specifically, like, someone's working out before they've, you know, sometime in the morning and they haven't eaten anything since the night before.

Yeah, I'm not aware of— well, the research I have read on this is it's not giving you a fat loss benefit. Now, what I want to do next, and I haven't done this yet, so I'm going to plead ignorance, is fasted workouts— is it harmful for women going through the menopause transition or that are postmenopausal. Is it harmful? I don't know. But I know that that opinion is out there. I just don't know if that is based on the evidence or not.

Yeah, I think the opinion, and I can't find the research on it, but it was like, okay, but if you do that, now you've got cortisol up. And I'm like, yeah, but you want cortisol up. And then it won't come down afterwards 'cause you didn't. And I'm like, I just know, N of 1, that when I work out, 'When I eat before I work out, I work out harder.' I was like, 'And then you are getting a lot better.' And I was like, 'Well, if I feel better and I could work out harder, then I can get, you know, more muscle. So that's a better thing.' Let me talk to the, the cortisol. Yes, please. Because this whole thing with cortisol out there, and, and, you know, there's the same thing with the blood sugar spike and the insulin spike. I think we get confused between chronic elevations that are damaging. Yes. And acute elevations which are normal and desired.

Yes, yes. With cortisol, I've had many— and again, these are all women for whatever reason— they'll, they will contact me and say, hey, my cortisol is high, or I shouldn't do this because I— it's, it's just, it's spiking my cortisol. And my question— and, and maybe it is, but I'm— every time I say, well, what are your cortisol levels? Give me the blood. Well, They don't. They've never got it measured. So somewhere they're getting a message that their cortisol levels are high, and then this is causing all these problems. And again, maybe it is. I don't like the, the trend that they're believing this without documenting it, right? Because it's giving them a fear of something which may be true, but it may not be true either. So there's a— whatever, again, and this has happened a lot over the last year, a message of My cortisol levels are so high, but yet they haven't measured them to validate that.

Well, and the reality is, if you had chronically high cortisol levels, the best thing that you could do would be to do some HIIT training because it's going to help your body bring those down. Like, you would do HIIT training and it would bring it down, or you just do a quick cold plunge, you know, like, what are the things that could do an acute and then your body would adapt and bring it down? Yeah.

I need to remember that so I can— if they're high.

Well, I love HIIT training for training your nervous system to be able to go stress, recover, stress, recover, right? You don't want to stay in this chronically I'm running away from a tiger. You want to run from the tiger and then chill, hopefully, or get eaten. I don't know. But reality is, if you're running from the tiger, yeah, if you chill, you got eaten. But no, I mean, in the old days, chronic stress, you did not have chronic. You had acute stress. Chronic stress would probably have killed you. Yes. Yeah. You know, it would be chronically being starving or frozen or whatever.

Yes. So next time, if you invite me again, I will, I will have read, I will have done the work on all of this aerobic cardiovascular stuff, which I haven't done the, the reading yet. So I, I want to have, I will have a more informed opinion on a lot of this.

I I am worried out there that people are— the information that gets pushed out online, it does more harm than good because I feel like people start to hear, oh, don't— women shouldn't do Zone 2. And I'm like, you know, Zone 2 for me, I throw on a rucking vest and go for a walk and, you know, I'm a little breathy. I think this is a great thing that we can be doing and do some HIIT training and do some resistance training. And don't, you know, it's like you're so worried about raising your cortisol, you're sitting on the couch.

Yes, you know, and, and to this, if you are healthy and you enjoy an activity and you are recovering from it and adapting to it, I would never say don't do that. Now, there may be instances where people shouldn't do certain forms of activity because they are not in a health— not in a good situation, or they are overtrained, or they all have inflammation. Does that make sense? But that's a blanket statement to say you should never Everything should be taken within context of that person's current situation.

And I just find for most people, they're not overtraining. You know, it's— and I will tell you, you know, full disclosure, when all of the stuff first started coming about cardio, I was like, stop all this crazy cardio. But it was because women, that was what everyone gravitated towards because it was a comfortable place to be. Yes. You know, I'm like, take some time, go put it, go in the weight room. Room and then take that cardio and add some HIIT. Yeah, and you got it, you know. But like, I think we're kind of making people scared to start to do these things. Back over to protein real quick before we wrap up.

The menopause nutrient. That is my opinion. I'm a protein researcher, so I guess I'm biased, but it does everything to help counter the negative physiological adapt— morphological adaptations that happen.

Well, and I love that because it people to understand that it's got to be the priority. Yes. Because, you know, the biggest thing I hear up there is, how do you eat that much protein? I'm like, I eat more protein than my body weight. Like, I eat a lot of protein. I eat more than that. I default over to probably 200 grams a day most times. I look at my little chronometer, I went, oops. You know, it's like Christmas Eve, we were at the Brazilian steakhouse. I would say they lose money when my family walks in because we're like, no salad bar for us. We're just going in, bring us the pecana. So I don't have any issues with that. But for someone, there's a lot of protein fear, just like there's fear of cardio for, you know, for cortisol. There's fear of protein. And, you know, from everything that I can tell, like, it would be really hard to overdo it on protein. Like, you're gonna get really full. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

I'm not aware of any research And again, I prioritize protein. I educate on protein. The last thing I want to do is tell somebody to do something that is not healthy or that's harmful. I don't want to tell my children eat high protein if it's unhealthy. I've never been able to find one study, one intervention study. Now, if we're going to talk about correlations and associations, you probably could find a study, but you can make them— you can make any argument with correlation. And again, correlation does not mean causation. I've never found a research study that has reported that high levels of protein intake are harmful to the body. Now, if it's really high carbs and you're sedentary, I think that you, you would put yourself on a path to prediabetes and diabetes. If you are eating very high fat for a long period of time, I think we can, we have some data that would suggest that's probably not ideal for your health. But protein? And like you said, good luck trying to overeat on protein. You get full pretty quick. And if you're training, it's the— well, even if you're not training, if— let me just say, if you are starting with a suboptimal amount of protein and you increase it to optimal amounts, that is a stimulus for body recomposition in a good direction. Research has reported you will build muscle and you will lose fat going from very low levels, just getting them to optimal.

Optimal level. All right, so do not fear the protein.

Do not fear it. Prioritize it.

Yes. My biggest thing is, honestly, for women, eat it first.

Yeah, I like that.

That's because otherwise they eat all the other stuff and then they're full.

I'm like, no. Yes. Or some people in the population, they'll eat that other stuff and they'll keep eating and keep eating. That goes back to leverage. Yes, yes. Which I mean, that is a fascinating hypothesis. Is that basically, real quick?

I don't think it's a hypothesis anymore, is it? It's just called that now.

Yeah, it's probably— yeah, they call it the protein leverage hypothesis. But real quick, a— the, the hypothesis, although I, I think we have— well, the human research is, is very good supporting this. You will be hungry and you'll have a drive to eat until you eat a given threshold of protein each day. So once you eat that protein, if once you reach this threshold of protein each day, you are now satiated and full. Until you do, you will keep, you will keep being hungry, and the research says you go for high-fat, highly processed foods.

I always think it's the nacho cheese Dorito diet because it's the umami that they fake, make it taste like protein. Oh yeah, yeah. So I never thought of that. I didn't think of it. I read it. No, I was like, oh, that makes a ton of sense where that Food companies then would play on this to create things that would dupe you into thinking you're getting something, but you're not.

So that hypothesis is more of a preventing weight gain than it is weight fat loss.

The easiest thing, you know, I have this little Eat Protein First 7-Day Challenge, and I did it to prove a point. I always love things that give you a quick win. And literally, when people do this where they have to find out how much protein is right for them, right? We have a little calculator. So, I do 0.7 to 1 gram, and then they eat that first for a week, and they're all their meals. And it was like, people are like, oh, I don't have the cravings anymore. Oh, I'm not hungry anymore. Oh, I have more energy. Oh, I lost weight. Oh, my belly fat.

I was gonna say, I bet you have some body composition changes.

Quickly, quickly. Like, it's such an easy win. So, the menopause nutrient is really a great way to think of it because That's where it should be. Like, this should be your key focus and design your diet around this. Yes, yes. Design your, your exercise program around resistance training and design your diet around protein. And then of course, go to sleep.

Yes. And again, why do we do those things? Because we know what happens to the body during the menopause transition. Those things prevent or will mitigate what happens— what the negative things that will happen during this transition. Yeah.

So, whether or not you're doing HRT, you're going to do this anyway. Yes. Perfect. So, for people who want to learn more, are you still taking people into your survey thing or is that closed off?

Oh, no, no, no. We haven't even released it yet. We've been working on this for about 4 months. Right now, we are at the point where we're piloting it. So, my team is going through it to make sure there are no mistakes. Then we're going to send it out for beta testing to actual women that would take this for real. But I think we'll have this out probably in about a month and then it will be live. So no, no, no, research moves slow, very slow, but we have vetted this. And what's the best, what's so awesome about this, I ask my followers, I give updates on this and just a perfect example, I never would've thought to ask about joint pain and menopause because my wife didn't have joint pain, so I didn't know. I had so many women say, make sure you ask about joint pain. I'm like, I didn't know.

Oh, think about Dr. Vonda. Yes. Finding the musculoskeletal thing. And I started to think about my clients. I remember having clients with frozen shoulder and I was like, where is this coming from? And it's like, oh, where was Vonda when I needed her back then?

Yeah. And we have frozen shoulder in there. We have joint pain in there. Yeah. So it's not— yes, it is not even available yet, but it will be soon. We don't have bleeding gums in there.

It's like, now that you know there's 114 Well, I hope you have a write-in place for other weird stuff. We do. Now you might have like 150 symptoms.

I made it a point to have, and there are many open-ended questions. Like when you do, like we ask a bunch of resistance training questions. Hey, tell us if we didn't ask it, what would you like to tell us about this? So yes, plenty of open-ended.

Nice. So if someone wants to connect up, are you best on Instagram?

Yes. Yes. Bill Campbell, PhD.. And I'm constantly giving updates on this, on the menopause survey, which again won't be too far out from being released. And your IG is great.

And then what's your website for them if they want to jump into your research reviews?

Oh, thank you. Website is BillPhD.com. And I offer— He's so predictable. Very consistent and boring. I'm not the most exciting person in the world. I find this very exciting. Yeah, me too. Me too. Two nerds nerding out on fitness and nutrition. My research review, BillCampbellPhD.com, it's, I would say it's designed for people who are serious about their fitness and nutrition to optimize muscle mass and burn body fat. And if you're a fitness professional and you have weight loss clients, I would say you have to have this because it brings the research to you at your fingertips. And I bring in fitness professionals, nutritionists, physicians, so that they can give their application of the research. So they take my research or how I'm summarizing the research, and they say— I ask them, how would you apply this to the lives of your weight loss clients? Yeah, that's— it's hugely valuable.

Like, having— reading research is one thing, but having the application, it's gold. It's fantastic. Well, thank you very much. I'm so excited that this is now part 2 of an ongoing series.

Yes, yes, I can't wait till next time. Cardio, and we'll do more HRT stuff as I start to crack that nut a little more.

Crack the menopause metabolism code, please.

I will try. It won't be from a lack of effort.