Wine, Fasting & Protein: Melanie Avalon's Longevity Blueprint

Melanie, it has been a long time.

Welcome back. Thank you so much for having me, JJ Virgin. I was just reflecting, I first came on your show almost a decade ago, I think. And, um, honestly, it was probably one of my first podcasts at the time. So, wow. Thank you for— things have changed so much since then. I've met you in person multiple times now. And yeah, so thank you for having me.

Yeah, I think because we have the same liter— literary agent.

Yes.

Celeste. And that was— was that for What When Wine?

Yes, yes, that was it.

The best title ever.

Yes, thank you. And we had you on the Intermittent Fasting Podcast at the time. I think we did like a swap thing.

I think so. Well, let's actually, um, there's so much to talk about. For What When Wine, I loved that book. It was like paleo eating and drinking wine, and wine's such an interesting subject right now. Where, what is your stance now with alcohol and all of that? Let's dig into that a little.

Yeah, this is one of my favorite topics to talk about for obvious reasons. And you're right, I feel like right now there's a really big sober curious movement. So people are kind of really hesitant about drinking alcohol. Um, but I have so many thoughts about alcohol. Do you drink?

So I grew up outside of, of, um, Napa. I grew up in Berkeley, and literally when I was growing up, you could go to the wine country and no one carded you. Wow. Yeah, and they didn't charge either. So I went off to UCLA, and we'd been drinking like Opus One and Caymus and all these great things. And of course you go off to college and they've got like wine in a box. I'm like, what is that? But I grew up you know, totally a wine snob. And then, and I've, so I've always had drank wine. And then I got introduced to Todd from Dry Farm Wines and I got the lecture on wine and what to drink. And then I switched over to entirely only drinking European wines. But I will tell you, I think it was 'cause last year I drank so much wine in one year. We went on this whole like European tour trip with— in Spanish wine tasting. And I finally, by the end of the year, I was like, I just got overwined. Um, and I've really been barely drinking since then, which is a first for me. So I love wine. It will always be a part of my life. It probably won't be as much as it has been in the past. I did a little Damp January, and I'm just kind of drinking occasionally.

I like it. I hadn't heard that term, Damp January. So it's like toning down but not dry.

Yeah, it's like, well, because you hear that and I go, I'm not interested in that. Like, if I go out to a great restaurant and I'm going to have a great dinner, I want a great glass of wine with it. And so I think sometimes the all or nothing has never been for— I'm a very rebellious person who doesn't like rules, and if you tell me I can't do something, I immediately want to do it. So I just went, oh, okay, I'll just have a Damp January, and that was fine. I think had 4 glasses of wine maybe, and I probably had 2 in February. And but that doesn't mean I'm not gonna go to a great, you know, restaurant and have a glass of wine or a bottle of wine, but it also doesn't mean I'm having it every night, which is what I was doing last year, right? So we switched off of that. So yeah, tell me, tell me all about your stance on wine, etc.

Yeah, no, I love this so much. So It's really interesting because I think it's pretty well known or understood that, correlationally at least, um, wine and alcohol is correlated to health and longevity beneficially. I know there's debates around that, but it's pretty consistent, and the longest-lived populations drink alcohol and all of that. My thing that I think is really important that I feel like nobody is talking about is all of these studies that they do on alcohol and health, they they're not doing dry farm wines in those studies. They're— and they're using really broad categories. So it'll be like alcohol or no alcohol, or it'll be like wine, beer, you know, but it's not taking into account the type. And like, you're really familiar with Todd and Dry Farm Wines and the concept of what's actually in our wine. So I think like there needs to be more literature and studies on low alcohol, low sugar, organic wine compared to this conventional stuff. Like you talked about, you came back and you had like wine in a box. Like who knows what all's in that? It's high alcohol, it's high sugar. So I think there's so much to the type of alcohol people are drinking to start. And I know for me, if I were to drink conventional wine or alcohol, it would just like wreck me. But I have like a glass of Dry Farm wines every night. When I go to restaurants, I have my whole, it's really intense, but my whole protocol to find like the wine. Like I'm pretty good. I can usually find wines that will work for me. If I go through my whole checklist and make sure that— Well, what's your checklist? Yeah, yeah, okay. So I love doing this. Basically when you go to a restaurant, well, depends where you are. So I like to find, you know, nicer restaurants, steakhouses, French restaurants, Italian restaurants. They're gonna have a better selection typically.

Right, we're not going to a sports bar and having their wine on tap.

Right, and if I'm, I probably shouldn't be saying this, but if I—

Now I totally want you to say this, whatever this is.

If I know I'm going somewhere like a sports bar because of the event and I have to have my drink, I'm very good at like taking care of myself, you know, sneaking in my dry farm wines if I have to. But then I will still order a wine for the restaurant because I want to support the establishment. And then I'll just like dump it and refill it with my dry farm wines. And nobody knows.

That sounds like what we used to do at Chuck E. Cheese when we were kids.

Oh my gosh.

That was like all the parents. Brought our little things in.

Oh, I love it, I love it. I know, um, it's funny, one time I was actually— it's funny because I'm sneaking this like wine into places not to like sneak in alcohol illegally or anything, it's just because I want to drink what will make me feel good and what's healthy. So I'm— I have good intentions. But, um, it's funny, one time I was trying to do this at a concert or something and I actually dropped like my— I have my ways of sneaking in and it dropped out at security. Um, it fell on the floor, like, in, like, a juice container. And the security guy was like, what is that? And I also am, like, really big on honesty and not lying, so I literally just told him. I was like, I'm so sorry. I was like, I can only drink organic wine, like, I react to wine in there. And he was like, just don't tell anybody, you can bring it in.

I was like, okay, so, like, high maintenance check.

Yeah. Um, but anyway, on the checklist, the checklist. So, like I said, finding a restaurant that is going to have, like, European Italian wines and decent wine list is a good place to start. And then going from there, I think a lot of people think that the wine will have to say organic on the, like, on the menu. Um, that's not the case. And that's what I really learned ordering dry farm wines, is that there's a lot of wineries, especially in Europe, that practice organic practices, but they're not going to— it's not going to be labeled that on the bottle or in the name. So I, I look at the wines, I center in on the European ones, preferably France or Italian, and then I just go to Google, I put in the name of the winery and I write the word organic after in Google and it'll usually come up pretty quickly if that winery practices organic practices. So that's step one.

Have you used the Vivino app?

I do. I love Vivino. Yes, I am. I wish it had a feature for like organic. I actually wanna make this app. Like I think there should be a Vivino app that is kind of like Dry Farm Wines where it talks about if it's organic or not.

Yeah, because you can read about the winery, but yeah, that would be fantastic is to have the, it's kind of like the Seed Oil app.

Exactly. I know, maybe we should think about doing this.

Problem solved.

I know, I know. Actually, that would, it would do so, so well. I just, it would just take off. I need to do this. But so in any case, you are just sitting around doing nothing. I know, I know. So yeah, so figuring out if the winery is organic or not. And then from there, that usually narrows it down to a couple. So then I have a couple, then I go on Vivino, I read the tasting notes, I see how far they have it on the dry side, and I see if people are saying that it's a drier wine. Um, and then from there I get really intense. I usually ask the bartender or the server to tell me the ABV, the alcohol percentage, on the wine. And I try to find one. It's hard at restaurants, but I try to find one not quite dry per wine standards, but 13% or less at restaurants. And, um, and then if I still have options from there, I'll taste them and I'll see which one tastes like the lightest. And, um, but variety, like varietals-wise, I find that like Cab Francs from France, Gamays, Pinot Noirs, those tend to be low, lower alcohol, um, and, you know, potentially better ones to go for. And then Italian wines as well. But like cabs and things like that can be a little heavy on the alcohol.

So, yeah.

Yeah.

Which is what I grew up drinking.

Yes. Yeah, California cabs.

California cabs. And Todd White totally saved me on that. But you bring up an interesting point and, you know, it's very difficult to pull apart the alcohol from everything else that goes along with the alcohol. And so you're like, well, is it the alcohol or was it what you were eating, you know, or was it the other habits that you have? The one thing that I do notice, and I don't notice it with having the glass Dry Farm wines, but you get into a big, a big Cabernet or something like that and your sleep's just destroyed. It's just destroyed. So, and this will hit you more as you get older. Sadly. I bet. It's the sleep piece of the things. But I will say that a glass of lower alcohol Dry Farm wine doesn't seem to do it. So that's the exciting piece.

Yeah. I also, things I add on to make it more Dry Farm wines-esque. Have you used those wine wands?

Like the Pure Wine? Mm-hmm.

I use those. They're supposed to remove sulfites and histamine. I recently found ZBiotics. I'm obsessed.

I don't know if you know them. Oh, so does that work?

I love it, yeah. And when I ask my audience about it, everybody's like, yeah, it works. They're a little pricey is the problem. But I had the founder on my show. If you, I don't know if you would like to interview him, I could introduce you. Interesting.

Yeah, so how does it work?

Yeah, so they made the world's first genetically engineered probiotic. And it was a really great conversation because he thinks there's a whole like confusion surrounding GMOs and everybody thinks there's, automatically bad, but he talks about how genetic engineering can actually be beneficial, like in this case. So they actually genetically engineered a probiotic to break down acetaldehyde in your stomach because most of it's processed by your liver, but all of it that's in your stomach really doesn't get processed and creates a lot of the negative effects of alcohol. So you take it before drinking and the probiotic breaks down that acetaldehyde.

I love it. Wow. So do you notice a difference taking it?

I do, yeah.

Now, do you take that every night?

Okay, so like I said, it's a little bit pricey, so I was just taking it when I go out, but I became so obsessed with it now I have like a half bottle of it every night to like make it more affordable. But yeah, I use it a lot. It's great. I stocked up.

Okay, good to know.

Mm-hmm.

Good to know. Interesting. Okay, so we've gotten into that. When you wrote the book What When Wine, it was wine and intermittent fasting. Now talk to me about intermittent fasting, because I think the last time I talked to you, you were doing one meal a day. Are you still doing that?

I am, yeah. I've been doing it almost a decade now, which is crazy. I do one meal a day in the evening. It's like a massive feast every night, and I, I love it. Even when I travel, like when I've met you at conferences, I still, I still do it there.

Um, how do you manage to get in enough protein eating one meal a day?

It's so funny, our mutual friend Cynthia, she calls me the unicorn because, um, I, I do think a lot of people, especially women, would struggle to get enough protein in one eating window. I am a protein just obsessive lover, so the majority of my meal is protein. And I do eat for about 4 hours, and I just eat like pounds of meat and fish. I just love it.

Like, how much, how much? I could easily— I'm, I'm a I eat about 200 grams of protein a day. Like, I just, I love protein. I'd eat it over, and I've always been that way. The two things I like the most are drinking, like, loads of fluids and protein. Um, but how much are you getting in a day? Like, how much you get in in that meal?

It's, it's almost embarrassing. I mean, I probably, I mean, I have pounds, probably like maybe like a pound and a half of— I have like, I love scallops, so I'll have like a pound and a half of like scallops, and then I'll usually have like half a pound or so of fish or meat to go with that. I don't really like count, but it's, I don't, it's probably like 300 grams of protein a day. It's a lot. I eat a lot. Yeah.

Wow. Well, that study that just came out, which kind of blew everybody's hair off was, you know, 'cause I remember getting a DM from someone going, "I heard you could only digest 27 grams of protein." I'm like, well, couldn't she just think that through and think that sounds ridiculous? But, you know, then that study came out that showed that 100 grams of protein— now we don't know the upper limit because all it did was extend muscle protein synthesis. So, you know, seems to be working fine. And are you checking your, you know, monitoring your skeletal muscle mass?

Yeah, so, well, first of all, I'm sure you are. Well, to talk about that study really quickly, because we talked about it with Vanessa Sabina on the Intermittent Fasting Podcast, that was so interesting. Basically I think— is that the one where basically they said that— basically they weren't really measuring after a certain amount of time what happened after that. So everybody was assuming that it stopped, but it's because they didn't keep measuring.

Right. I mean, it's just like the big question on the leucine threshold is, from what I've heard, it's not sensitive enough to understand if maybe less leucine— like, we couldn't really test for muscle protein synthesis. We think that it requires 2.5 or 3 grams of leucine to get it started, but does it? Because we can't tell. So, you know, a lot of this stuff you're like, eh, how much do we really know? So yeah, that one, we don't really know what the upper limit is. And it doesn't really make sense that there would really be an upper limit. Maybe it just would take a whole day for you to, and that's probably what it is with you. You've got a whole day of digesting and assimilating this. You're like a snake.

Exactly. Oh my gosh. Yeah. So with the muscle mass, I don't do— I should more frequently. Do you do like DEXA scans and stuff frequently or?

Yes. So I do DEXA usually every 6 months. And then I have a, like a Bioimpedance, very similar to the InBody. I have a Tanita, the professional one at home. Oh, wow. But I'm pretty stable. I would be doing a DEXA once a year, except my husband had a total hip replacement and then he really blew him up. And so we went back in because I wanted him to be able to monitor his skeletal muscle mass again because it's way better the DEXA saying it to him than me saying it to him, right? So that way I'm not, you know, the meanie over here going, hey, you're losing muscle. The DEXA told him. But I think, you know, If you're fairly stable, once a year and then just doing your bioimpedance at home is a good thing.

You're inspiring me. I need to, because I don't think I've got— I haven't had a DEXA in a while.

Well, you're how old?

34.

Yes. So, I mean, this is that really important time because we start to lose muscle around age 30. So you just want to make sure that, like, I think we should be packing on as much muscle as possible.

I agree so much. It's funny, whenever I interview— I'm— because I'm haunted by this protein longevity question. So whenever I have anybody on my show who's even remotely knowledgeable on this, and especially if they're in the other camp, like, like a lot of the vegan people, like Dr. Greger—

do what?

Yes, Dr. Greger, Dr. Valter Longo, Dr. Neal Barnard. I'm like, protein? Because I like hearing the opposite, you know, the opposite opinion. Which is a very opposite opinion. I'm haunted by this question.

I think— but I think one of the most important things we can do is be critically open-minded and hear all sides of the story. Here's my take, and I'd love to hear your take on it, because I think— so for the listeners, there are two sides to the longevity story. There are the people that think that you need to keep mTOR low and eat low protein so that you don't trigger mTOR. And then there's people that want to eat higher protein to trigger mTOR, to trigger muscle protein synthesis. My take on it is very similar to insulin or cortisol or any of these other things. You want them high and you want them low, and you wouldn't want to have mTOR high all the time. You wouldn't want to have it low all the time. And so that's my confusion with them, is because if you look at the most important thing with longevity is muscle mass. And if you've got mTOR low all the time, you're going to become sarcopenic, and that's not going to help you with longevity. So what are their arguments, and how does it make sense for you?

Yeah, no, well, I agree. I agree with you so much about all the things. I agree about listening to all the opinions. Um, so it's interesting because like when I had on Dr. Michael Greger recently, and, um, he made the statement that the nutrient, vitamin, compound, whatever, element of our diet, element in general, most correlated to longevity was low protein intake.

And I was like, and based on what, what was he citing?

Well, he, he cites like a lot of stuff. He kind of like says, you know, he has like his list of all of his studies, um, which cherry-pick them. I, okay, so I will say reading his book, okay, I will say he's a very kind person and I think he's doing a lot of amazing things for for showing the awareness of the health benefits of food. Like, he does a lot of amazing work. I do— and his book is heavily referenced— I do, when I read his book, check the references, and sometimes it is a little bit misleading, which is frustrating. Um, but, um, it's interesting because I agree with you. I think with the, the mTOR and the IGF-1, it seems like the best of both worlds will be having it low, like you said, and then high. And so that's why I love like my one meal a day situation, 'cause I'm low during the day and then high at night. And I had Dr. Valter Longo on a few times actually, and I asked him if what he thought about the approach I do. And he was like, "Well, we basically just don't know." He was like, "It could, that could be the case that your fasting is mitigating the negative effects." He's like, "Well, we just don't know, so like why do it?" And I was like, well, I don't know. Like, to me it seems to make sense mechanistically from the studies, from what I experience health-wise. Um, oh, this was helpful. Okay, this is helpful. I'm so— I forgot about this. Um, I recently had on, um, Dr. Matthew Dawson, and he runs True Diagnostic, and they have an epigenetic health test that looks at your epigenetic age through 3 different tests, one done with Harvard, one with Duke and one with another, um, college. But, um, he told me my results were some of the best he's ever seen for a low epigenetic age. So I was like, okay, my high protein diet is clearly not making me age faster epigenetically. This is like data.

Yeah, it's exciting. I mean, if you look at longevity, one of the biggest risk factors is grip strength, VO2 max, low muscle mass. If you're eating low protein and as we age, we have anabolic resistance. I mean, maybe you could counteract a lot of that with resistance training, but you still have to have the amino acids to make the muscle. So I don't understand, you know, it doesn't make sense to me.

What I think a big part of it too is, is that if we're looking at like high in studies correlationally, high protein diets. Most people eating a high protein diet, if they're eating, if they're just like a normal person, that means they're probably eating a high calorie diet because there's not a lot of people eating like a low calorie or even maintenance calorie high protein diet. If you're— so it could be, look, there could be, it could be like convoluted there because a lot of the studies on high protein diets and negative health effects might just be high calorie diets.

And you bring up an important point that goes back to even the alcohol conversation too, is nutrition is so hard to study because usually you're looking at one thing. Oh, they eat a high protein diet, but it's sort of like the red meat argument. Well, are they eating hot dogs?

Right.

Or are they eating a grass-fed, grass-finished steak? Because those are two different foods, right? And it's like, are you having margaritas and wings? Or are you having a glass of really good red wine, low alcohol content, you know, and some wild salmon? So it's hard to pull these things apart. But, and it's been my argument with the Blue Zones too, 'cause they'll go, "Oh, the Blue Zones are vegetarian or vegan." I go, "No, they're not. I'm sorry, Italy or Greece? Don't think so." You know? I've been to both those places. I haven't seen vegans there. They eat cured meats and cheese and fish.

Exactly.

And they drink wine every day with lunch.

Yes, yes. Yeah, what's ironic about that is, and you know, that the 7, or the Blue Zone countries that they picked are probably pretty, they could be a little bit cherry-picked anyways. But if we were to look at the longest-lived populations, and find the commonalities, the commonalities would be that they include animal products. It wouldn't be that they don't. Like, Loma Linda is the only one that is vegan. So making— I don't know why people make that jump to like removing animal products. It just doesn't make sense. And then you have places like Tokyo and Japan where it's very high animal products and high longevity.

So yeah, a lot of fish. I heard that it was an editorial decision because it would sell more books. But that's totally a rumor. But, you know, I don't know, it's not that far-fetched. Um, so you're a, you're, you're a youngster totally into longevity. How did that happen? And biohacking, where did all this come from?

Um, I've been haunted by aging since I remember when I was first haunted by aging, probably I think when I was like 12, um, because I wanted to do acting. I was like always pursuing acting growing up, and I would— I'm like very goals-driven. So when— even when I was like 12, I would look at like kid actors who had made it by the time they were like 14. I was like, okay, I have until I'm 14 to like have made it. Um, so I was always haunted by this idea of like time speeding up and needing to have accomplished a lot by certain benchmarks. So I think that's what made me haunted by aging originally. And then, um, the whole— I went to— you said you went to UCLA. I went to USC.

Oh yeah, well, I actually went there for doctoral school.

Okay, nice, nice. So we were— yeah, um, but I studied film and theater there, and, um, I had some health issues when I graduated from college and kind of just like stumbled into the whole biohacking world. I found Dave Asprey's stuff, not surprisingly. And I was kind of doing like all the biohacking stuff before. I mean, I guess Dave was calling it biohacking back then, but it wasn't really like a thing as much. And then by the time I launched my podcast and had become an influencer and had a book, I kind of realized, I was like, oh, what I'm doing is biohacking. And I would find things that would so, like whenever I find something that so makes my life better, I just want everybody to know about it so they can experience it. So that's why I love like the biohacking influencer type world, because I get to try all this stuff and then just like tell the people, and I want people to find what works for them.

What have been some of the biggest discoveries that you've found that have made the biggest difference?

Probably— so you touched on it, um, sleep. Like just supporting sleep the best you can is so important. Um, so like the blue light blocking glasses, those are one of the things I was doing, you know, way before those were popular. Um, blue light blocking glasses, blackout curtains, cooling mattress, monitoring with my Oura Ring, like anything I can do to support sleep is so important to me. Um, and then red light therapy, cryotherapy. Do you do like cold therapy and cryotherapy?

So we have, um, we turned, we have a big gym in our house and then a recovery room. And in the recovery room, we have a big sunlight and sauna. Then we have a small relax heat up fast heat sauna. Then we have an HBOT, we have Juve red lights, and we have a cold plunge.

Love it. Yeah.

Now the one that I just need to be more consistent on, but I just can't tell if it's doing anything. So I'd love to hear from you. 'Cause sauna, I'm all over the sauna. I love the sauna. I'm always cold, so I love the sauna. Um, I do not love the cold plunge, but I do it. So that's that. And I do a contrast. And then usually what I like to do is sauna, cold plunge, and then red lights. The red lights are the thing that get blown off, mainly because I really want a red light bed that I can get in. I would use it way more often. I couldn't convince my husband that I was like, this was a really smart idea and we should spend 100 grand on this. And I found one, I'm like, it's on sale for $60,000. He's like, absolutely, you've lost your mind. You know. But talk to me about the red lights and what you notice from them because that's the biggest challenge. I'm like, is this doing anything? I can't tell.

Yeah, so, okay, I love that you have that whole setup. That's amazing. And I love sunlight in. I literally can't, I can't imagine my life not doing a sauna session every night. It's like mind-blowing to me that there was a time before this. 'cause it, you, it just gets all the stuff out and it like helps your sleep. And yeah, so moment for sunlight. Um, the red light, I also love Joovv. I, I love it. So I've been using it. I'm trying, it's funny, I first started using red light, experimenting with it again before, like probably like a decade ago, 'cause I heard it was good for your thyroid and I heard it was good for your hair. And I was literally like ordering red light bulbs on Amazon and trying to make my own devices. And it was Yeah, it was a whole self-project. Wow. I, yeah, I don't know if that stuff was, if that was a good idea or not, but then I found Joove and I love them and actually have it on my desk right here. So it's funny, my favorite benefit is not the main benefit people use it for. I love using the red light to regulate my circadian rhythm and to counteract blue light and to create, like, I basically run it all day, like, as ambient lighting and it makes me feel Good. Like, into— yeah.

Um, and then at night, you have it on. I mean, obviously you don't have it on right now because you'd look red, right? But the rest of the day, you just have it on in front of you?

Yeah, so I have it on, and I find that during the day, like, when there's so much bright light anyways, it, it just kind of adds— it adds a nice, like, vibe. It makes me feel good. Um, at night, I light my apartment with Joovv. So I just— everything's like red. It's like the red light zone.

Um, wow. It's like, uh, it's— I've seen Amsterdam and the red light district.

It's funny. So it's funny because I'm on a door, people will be knocking on it. It's really funny because I'm in an apartment and I've been here for like years, and I probably— it was probably wasn't until a few years of living here that I went outside when my lights were on and I saw what my apartment looked like. I was like, whoa.

Red light.

People must feel like, girl, doing— what is happening? Um, so yeah, but oh well. Wow. So it was—

what do you notice from it? Is it more circadian rhythm type of—

is that— yeah, so like I said, that's kind of a unique butterfly thing for me because most people don't go to it for that. I do, just how I feel and like energy-wise and circadian rhythm. I really, really feel it using it that way. The other benefits I do, like I do do like skin treatments and I definitely notice an effect with that. And the studies on it are, I keep pointing like you can see it. The studies on it are pretty supportive for how it really helps our mitochondria in our cells. And when our mitochondria are functioning better, everything's functioning better. I will say, I love also the brand Kineon. They have a targeted, red light LED laser device, and it make— they're like small little module modules, um, that you can hold and you can put like targeted treatment. That's amazing. Like if I ever have, um, like dental work and dental pain, or if I just have like any weird pains, or I don't normally get headaches, but any sort of like tension, if I put it on that, it just, it goes away. It's, it's profound. Oh, and TMJ pain. I get like jaw pain ever since I had my wisdom teeth out, the red light is amazing for that.

So, all right, good to know. I need to get back, back at it. The sauna is just so gratifying. I know, I know. Now, you had black mold exposure at some point along the line. Was that what, what happened and how did you figure it out?

Yeah, so that's because basically I graduated college, I moved into an apartment. And I just started feeling not well, like, but I was so high on adrenaline that I was really combating all of it. I was like, I basically like I could keep on keeping on, but I just felt inside like something was very wrong. And as far as combating and finding it out, I didn't realize that the mold was there until I moved out, which was 2 years later. And I moved my, I was looking behind my bed and there was just black mold everywhere. And I was like, oh, that's great. And then, um, also right before we moved out, I realized that my oven had been leaking carbon monoxide every time I was using it. So that was fun. Um, but that's when I, I moved, actually moved for the first time to Atlanta for a little bit, and that's when I really got into just trying to aggressively find things to help myself feel better. And I didn't ever do like a specific mold protocol, but I just did a ton of detoxing and you know, overall holistic health things that I think really, really helped. I think doing the sauna helps a lot.

The sauna. I mean, if you think about it, we are bombarded by stuff like, you know, I was just out in LA to speak at this event, Luminescence, and the fires had just happened and it was just— and I think, God, these poor people that are living here, it's just a couple of days. And both Tim and I are like, you know, and I mean, but you're always being bombarded. By stuff. And we're in hotels all the time. Like, we were in a hotel last weekend for a medical conference. I'm walking down the hallway and I go, this place smells so bad, you know. There's no way that we're not just breathing in all— and they use chemicals to cover it, you know. So, you know, we all need to be saunering. And those little home units, Tim— we travel with a lot of stuff— and he's like, we should start to travel with our sauna. I go, at some point we gotta— like, this is ridiculous. Like, how many suitcases can we carry? But this little home unit is like $1,000. And that personal unit one.

The Solo?

Yeah, they're amazing. That's what I love. They fast heat. I mean, they're 180 degrees in under a minute.

The Solo unit, it's what I use every night. And what I love that your head is not in it because then you stay cooler. And I have mine set up. So I have like an arm that holds my iPhone above my head. So then I just like do work in the sauna. It's my favorite thing every night.

I love it. My husband wears— so we have the Fast Heat and the other one. I get up and get in the other one. He gets in the Fast Heat. I don't want to go in the Fast Heat after him because he sweats too much. But because he puts a thing around his neck and he puts a thing on his head. And I'm like, honey, I got blowouts. It's not happening here.

Well, I know, I know, right?

I know. But I'm in the other one with my computer, which is probably not the smartest thing, but you know, it is what it is. So let's talk EMFs because you just mentioned you're making an EMF EMF blocking headset, which is amazing because that's one I haven't figured out how to solve. But let's talk first about EMFs and the issues with them.

Yeah, no, I obviously love this topic. Um, so EMFs, they are classified by the IARC as a Group 2B carcinogen, and the studies on them are just not good. Basically, they affect the calcium channels of our cells. They've been linked to headaches and migraines. There's studies on them especially for fertility, like with men carrying their cell phones in the nether regions and affecting sperm quality. And we're just bombarded by them today in a way we weren't, you know, in the past, um, from our, our phones, our computers, our— people wear the, you know, the AirPods in their, in their ears. I shudder every time I like think about that. And, um, the thing I find most convincing for me and other people is if you actually, if you have an iPhone and you go into the, there's a legal section in the phone. So you go to like legal and then there's like an RF exposure button. This is in your iPhone and you click on RF exposure. It talks about the RF exposure, the EMFs from your phone, and it says they've been tested for safety, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then it literally says it, it recommends that you use it on speakerphone. So like to reduce exposure. So if iPhone is putting in their phone that to reduce RF exposure you should use speakerphone, I just feel like, I don't know, I feel like that's pretty telling. Like they didn't have to put that in there and they did.

Um, how did you find that out?

Um, so my partner that I'm— so I'm launching an EMF blocking product line and his name is R Blank and he has a company called Shield Your Body. And, um, is he— I'm pretty sure he's the one who told me. He's He's brilliant. And what I love about him is he's very much about just the science of the problems with EMF. He's not— I'm not saying the other things don't work, like the stones and like the different, you know, energy devices, but he's very much just about like the science and literally just blocking these waves. Because you can block them. The way they work, they don't like go through if you have things that block the, the waves. So, um, he's the one who told me, and it's Yeah, when people hear that, they're like, oh, okay. Because I think a lot of people think it sounds really woo-woo that it's a problem. But yeah, so I find that convincing. And by the time this show comes out, I should have launched the line. Fingers crossed.

Very exciting. So what all will you have?

So we're just launching with— well, there's a lot that— there's a lot I want to make, but we're launching with EMF Free Air Tubes. So it's what I'm wearing right now. Um, so basically, well, for starters, people can really drastically affect their EMF exposure with their iPhone by not wearing Bluetooth AirPods. Like, step one, like, don't use those. Um, and then never, never putting the phone to their head. Um, I have such muscle memory about that. Like, if I ever have to put the phone to my head, I my body, like it's hard for me to do it 'cause I'm so used to not doing it. But, and then using wired ones is way better, wired headphones, but even wired ones, they're digital. So they can transmit the EMS from the phone to your head still. So what we're making is they're digital from the phone up until like, if people can see the video or not, it's like there's a little bead that's like a, I don't know, 6 or 7 inches below your mouth. And after that point, it switches to all analog. So there's no, it's no digital. It's just transmitting the sound via air, like in the old school days. And, but it sounds good still. So we're launching these in black and rose gold because I have found that there's the EMF blocking world is a little bit masculine. So I'm trying to change that.

Most of this stuff is much more masculine.

Do what?

Most of this stuff is much more masculine. I know when Dave first came out with his glasses, I'm like, okay, and those are ugly.

Yeah, I know. Like, what do we do? So we need to girlify some things a little bit.

Yes, yes. Nice. Okay, so you also have, um, you have how many podcasts do you do?

Uh, 3.

3. Wow. And one's intermittent fasting, right?

So the Intermittent Fasting Podcast, the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast— that's where I interview guests, and that's the one you're coming on, um, I think in a few— in a month or so. So that's exciting. And, um, and I recently-ish launched the Mind Blown Podcast just for fun. It's a non-health related— we just talk about mind-blowing topics.

So like what?

Like the first 2 episodes was about the Mandela effect. I don't know if you're—

What is that?

Familiar with it. It's like my favorite thing. It's all of these memories people have. It's a lot of like logos and things. I can ask you some of them. People swear on their deathbed that things used to be a different way, but now it's different. So for example, okay, let me think of a good one. Like Chick-fil-A. Did you have Chick-fil-A growing up? You were in California, so—

I was in California. We did not have Chick-fil-A.

Okay, so you probably don't remember how, like, how it's spelled.

Um, well, no, I know how it's spelled.

How is it spelled?

C-H-I-K-A-F-I-L-A.

Okay, so that's what everybody says. Oh, or they'll say C-H-I-C. They think it's like not spelled out, that it's like C-H-I-K or C-H-I-C. I swear it was CHIC in the past. Regardless, now, now it's CHICK. It's like all, it's all there.

Huh.

Or, um, yeah. Um, well, that's the debate. I don't know.

I remember the ad of eat more chicken and it was CHIKEN or something like that.

Yeah. Yeah.

Right.

So if you, but if you like look up right now, like in our world, um, it's, it was never a different way. According to right now. Um, like, here, another one would be like, do you know Berenstain Bears?

Yeah.

Do you know how that was spelled, or how that's spelled?

No.

Okay, so I gotta find one that lands with you. So people remember that being spelled like Berenstain, like E-I-N, but now it's—

okay, so but what's the point? Same.

Um, basically there's all these things that people think something happened, um, with reality where something switched and we have these memories that are different. Like, um, do you know the Pikachu, um, guy? Do you know what like his tail looks like? Like what color? He's all yellow. Yellow. Okay. He has— people remember having like a black tail, but now it's like all yellow. Um, Captain Crunch, people remember it being Captain Crunch, now it's Cap'n Crunch cereal. There's a lot. And the reason it's called the Mandela Effect is people remember Mandela, Nelson Mandela, dying in prison in the 1980s, but he didn't. So that's crazy.

So is the Mandela Effect that people create their own reality? What's the man— the actual thing?

Yeah. So what they'll say it is now is that it's a false memory. It's just a false memory. It's a— it's like a collective false memory that society has. Um, but I interviewed Rizwan Burke. He wrote The Simulation Hypothesis. He's one of the main people behind that, that whole world. And he has a book on the Mandela Effect as well. And, um, a lot of people think it has to do with like, like, uh, quantum physics, a change in the timeline, parallel universes. My theory is that involves when CERN did— CERN, which is like a government international organization that did experiments with particle physics. They did experiments in 2009 where they— and they said that these experiments could create like gaps in the quantum realm and they don't know what would happen from that. And when they did that in 2009, people started noticing these effects. So I don't know. It's really interesting.

All right. When I first read about that you were doing this, I'm like, is this like UFOs.

Yeah, um, it's all different topics though. So like the podcast, so we also do like, uh, like the one we did last week, we did the Donner Party two nights— two weeks ago. Last week we did like the most expensive foods in the world. That was mind-blowing.

Wow.

Yeah, so just fun stuff.

Expensive foods, do what? Caviar and alcohol?

Um, actually none of them were alcohol on the list, but maybe it's because we were looking at foods. Um, the— okay, Some of them were mind-blowing. There's like a $25,000 taco at some restaurant.

What about that? I know that when I was in Istanbul, that Nurse Et restaurant that has the 24-karat gold cheeseburger.

I think we might have done that one. Yeah. A lot of the stuff was like had gold on it. There's one of the most expensive coffee bean is ridiculous. Do you know about it?

Oh, is it the one in? I've had it. We actually have it here at the house. Oh my God. It is, so when we were in Bali, I was like, insisted on going to this place. It's where the little animals poop out the coffee beans. Yes. And you don't touch them because they can eat your hands.

Oh my gosh.

The little animals that look really cute. I'm trying to remember. They look like a lemur. But yes, no, we were gonna do something else. We were on a tour with Mary Morrissey And I was like, I really want to go to the pooping coffee bean place. Cause I was like, this is the great, great presents to bring home. But people did not appreciate it the way I guess you had to experience it to think it was so super cool. And truthfully, the coffee doesn't taste any different.

Does it not?

Yeah.

Because they, they basically it's these cat-like animal, lemur animal things. They eat the coffee bean and then it ferments in their digestive tract. Poop it out, then they take it, they clean it, and then they make coffee from it. Yep.

And it's so expensive.

I've got some at home.

It's super expensive.

And meh. Yeah. Wow.

It's like, yeah, not that exciting. But, you know, it was kind of one of those things I'm going, I'm here. I want to taste the poopy coffee.

Oh my gosh. Yeah. That's amazing.

Well, you're always such a glam, like you're always glam. What's— and since you're very into biohacking and health, like, are there some beauty things that you have as secrets or special products or things that— because that's also a source of like major toxins, obviously.

Yeah, no, I am so passionate about this as well. The, the role of endocrine disruptors in our skincare makeup is just so shocking that there's a shocking lack of regulation and what they can put into our products. And, um, I actually have a theory that, because women, women tend to live longer than men, um, we know they have like longer longevity in general. So in theory, I think that would indicate they're— we're aging slower. So I think women should in theory look younger than men for longer. Yet the opposite is true. Men look— tend to look younger longer.

And well, and also older looking men are considered to be sexier than older looking women in our society. However, I think that should change.

This is so true.

We need to fix that.

This is so true. Um, but in any case, I wonder if part of the reason women might age faster seemingly with their skin is because of all this stuff we're putting on our face all the time. Um, because there's basically no regulation and there's things like, like products will often say that they have fragrance in them, and that's basically a legal loophole from the 1960s that allows companies to put whatever they want in products. Oh, mm-hmm. Yeah, so if it says fragrance, that can contain anything and they can't check what's in it. So if they want to sneak something in, they can just put it in the fragrance.

Wow. Well, so what brands do you use?

I love— well, it's right now, right now it's not up, but Beautycounter I love. I love Crunchy. I love Purity Woods. I love OneSkin. Probably those 4 brands are the ones I go to. It's just so important to know what you're, you wanna find brands that are formulated for safety for your skin first and foremost.

Yeah, it's hard to find ones that are natural, organic, and actually do things.

Yeah. And, and also to that point, so natural, um, like that could be another word that means nothing. Yeah. Yeah. It could be like a greenwashing word. And then, you know, some, some synthetic ingredients are actually completely safe. So for me, it's more like, for me it's more about like safety and is it tested for toxicity and its effect on our skin? So like finding a company that has that mission. So like outta the companies I just mentioned, um, I think Purity Woods is the only one that's certified organic. But I feel so good about the other companies because of their testing for safety and pesticides and toxins and endocrine disruptors.

Well, the OneSkin gals, I met them at Eudaimonia.

Oh, that was so fun. I loved that conference.

That was such a great event. I am super excited it's happening again.

It is coming back.

It is next year, November. I think it's 14th through the 16th.

I had so much fun.

That was fabulous. I mean, what an amazing event. I am actually working on a product right now because I got so obsessed with creatine and found out that it also is good for your skin. So I'm working on something right now. I'm dabbling in that world again.

Exciting.

I always like to hear what everybody else, what about like makeup specifically? Is that Beautycounter is the one that you use?

Yeah, all of those brands I just mentioned, I do. Like a combination.

I know One Skin doesn't have makeup. I don't think Purdy Woods does either.

They don't, no. Just Beauty Counter and Crunchy.

Okay, so Crunchy I've never heard of.

Oh, I— okay, so Beauty Counter went away. They're, they're coming back, but it's been a whole thing.

Um, what happened to them?

Um, so basically they— the founder, Greg— Greg Renfrew, who's amazing, she had the company And then it got bought out by another company that kind of got it into debt because they just made a lot of bad decisions. So then Greg actually came back and had to rebuy the company. She like rebought the company, like she bought basically the name and the assets, and now she's relaunching it, um, which was really sad because I was obsessed. I mean, it's happy— I'm happy it's going back, but it was sad it went away because those products are just Amazing. So that's when I found Crunchy 'cause I wanted to find a company that was very similar to Beautycounter that had like all of very similar products and a big catalog and high standards. And honestly, their standards are maybe a little bit better than Beautycounter. They're amazing.

All right. I've never heard of that.

Yeah, I love them. They're great.

Very exciting.

Their mascara is a game changer.

You just have your finger on the pulse. You're fantastic. And you've got a supplement line too. Tell us about that.

Yes. So it's called AvalonX, and I don't think I mentioned— so the EMF blocking product line is also going to be AvalonX. So that one, it will be at avalonxemf.us is the website. Um, but my AvalonX supplement line I created because I am a sensitive butterfly and I am neurotic about what I put in my body, and I couldn't find— especially for some of my favorite products, I couldn't find versions that I felt good about. So I was like, I'm just gonna make my own version. Um, so we started with serrapeptase. Have you, have you used serrapeptase by chance?

But tell everybody about serrapeptase. Yes. And especially now with all the residual clotting situations going on.

Yes. So serrapeptase, it's a proteolytic enzyme, meaning it breaks down proteins. Originally it's found in the Japanese silkworm, but we, it's, we make it now in a lab. So it's, it's vegan. But its purpose, I love this, is to break down the silkworm's cocoon without actually injuring the silkworm. So what that means is it selectively breaks down dead tissue rather than living tissue. So when we take it in the fasted state, it goes into our bloodstream and then it goes all throughout our body and it breaks down all of these problematic, you know, dead dysfunctional proteins. So many issues with health in general are from this buildup of dysfunctional proteins and our body reacting to them. So it'll help so many things. I take it, I took it originally for allergies. It'll clear your sinuses, clear your brain fog. It's been shown in studies to break down amyloid plaque, to reduce cholesterol, support wound healing, reduce inflammation, and then like blood clotting and stuff. It would really help for, for that. It's amazing. I'm obsessed with it. And I couldn't find a version that didn't have problematic ingredients in it. So I just made my own.

Nice. That's usually why we have to do things. It doesn't exist. The entrepreneur solves the problem. Always. Yeah. That one, I know anytime, like surgeries and stuff, but especially when all the vaccine stuff was coming out, it was like a, a great, great one to have alongside it.

So yeah, they actually— yeah, they were doing studies on it, especially during COVID and stuff, and on natokinase as well. Yes, yes. So I, I absolutely love it. It's amazing.

Yeah, I will put, um, because I know you have a whole line, so in the show notes— I know you're giving us a code for people to get a discount too. The code will be JJ, easy peasy. And we'll put all of this in the show notes along with the EMF. I want, as soon as those are available, like I definitely want to know.

I'm sending you some.

Yes. Definitely need some. I'll send you some chiatine.

Oh, perfect. I know. We should have like a goodies Christmas party and like—

We should.

Oh man. Like a biohacking white elephant thing.

I love white elephant parties. That's one of my, like, I love throwing events and parties, but When we do our mastermind retreats, everybody who does— we have these things called mic drops where people share what's working best, and everyone gets to pick as their prize white elephants. And we have this whole exchange that gets very, very fun as people steal everybody else's stuff. So I'm a big— love the white elephant. The problem with that one is no one would want to— like, all the white elephant gifts would be amazing.

Oh, I know. I'm having flashback. I'm like you, I love— I was always like the party thrower and everything, and I'd always do a white elephant party. And one time my friend brought a fish, like a live fish. Oh my God.

The last white elephant we did, someone brought a— this is one that just sticks in my head because I was like, what the heck? It was a candle warmer so that you could get the aroma of a candle without having to light it. I go, help me understand why you would ever need to have this thing. And someone goes, oh, for my cat, because we can't put candles on because the cat will— might get— I was like, okay, that's really funny.

That's interesting.

I was like, really? I'm like, talk about the gift you would never need.

Oh my gosh, so specific.

Cannot make it up. All right, well, I will make sure that we put all of the stuff— the show notes are going to be at— wait for it, I'm looking for where I'm supposed to put this— uh, jjvirgin.com/avalon. Easy enough. And we'll put links to all your podcasts, our last podcast episode, the episode with Todd where we talk all about dry farm wine, so everybody gets that piece, and the links to your two different companies and the codes so that everyone can get themselves some goodies. And what a wealth of knowledge.

Oh, thank you, JJ. As, as are you. I, I love that, like, everything— I don't know, I just, I could talk to you for about so many things for so long. We should actually seriously consider making that, that wine app. Like the—

no kidding.

I'm not kidding.

I'm kind of amazed because the, you know, they have the seed oils app, and I'm like, why? I think people don't realize yet again, just like you said, and it's important to distinguish that they look at at, you know, lumping everything into the same category. It's always my frustration with meat. And, you know, it's the same with alcohol. It's like, I'm sorry, there is a big difference between, like, you know, someone drinking a piña colada or someone drinking a box wine or someone drinking a low-sugar, you know, organic glass of wine. There's a big difference. You cannot lump them all together.

It is. It's so different. And, um, I'm knee-deep right now. I'm developing a dating app that will take into account people's dietary choices and also like drink choices and stuff. So point being is, people, stay tuned for that. And I'm like deep in the app, so if you want to make a wine app together, I'm like doing one.

You know what's so funny? I, I still think about back in my days because I met my husband on Match, but it was always so funny because they would ask you, you know, the guys would rate, and I have theory on dating apps that, that a guy would rate himself athletic and toned. And I'm like, if you're athletic and toned, I'm freaking Miss Olympia. You know, you're not athletic and toned, dude. But I think that men— and then there was one app I was on, it was Millionaire Match, where they could say they're hot, they're good-looking, you know, they're hot, they're very good-looking, they're good-looking. No guy ever said he was like average. They're all hot or very good-looking. And I think most women would go, "Oh yeah, I'm, you know, I'm good looking," or "I'm average." Women will downplay themselves and men will be like, "Yeah, I'm, you know, this athletic hot." Well, we'll see. I might be talking completely out of turn, but it'd be interesting to see.

I love that. That's true. I hadn't thought about that before.

Yeah, but I had many dates with men that claimed they were athletic and toned.

That, and I think people will fudge on the height thing as well.

Yes, the, uh, fudge on the height. And it was always amazing, like, you're fudging on these things, you don't think that we'd notice?

Yeah, it's, it's not in your favor to do that.

I'm pretty sure I can tell if you're fudging on your height and you walk in and you're really 5'9". I'm pretty sure I know. You know, I literally put in my dating app I put, I am 6 feet tall and I like to wear high shoes. And no, I don't want to go out on a date with you if you're 5'5". We can be pals, but I'm not like— no, I don't want to. I want to wear high shoes and I don't— I want to look up to you.

How tall is your husband?

He is 6'2½".

Nice.

Now he said he was 6'3". I'm like, you're not 6'3". But I think at one point maybe he was, and he is sticking with it, you know. Yeah, yeah, like, okay, honey. But yeah, he's a— he's definitely a keeper. I'm a big fan of dating apps.

Oh, I— well, I will have to talk more about it when we— when we're watching it.

A whole nother subject that's completely— but it is related to health because relationships are a very important part of health.

Yeah, and like I said, there's no dating app right now that lets people filter by their dietary— like, all the dietary choices.

Here's the thing, it's not just dietary habits, cuz think, like, Tim and I eat the same, like, thank God. Um, but also sleeping habits, exercise habits, like all that stuff, you know. If you were with someone, it would be really hard for me if I, I wouldn't be with someone who didn't have the same healthy lifestyle stuff. It would be weird.

That's so true. Even circadian rhythm, because like I'm a night person. I don't think I would do well with—

oh, I'm a morning person.

Oh, see. We could not date.

You can't date. I'm sorry, but I'm taken.

I know.

And I think that you bat for the, the, the other team too. So, um, yeah, but all that stuff does matter.

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Right. We both wake up around the same time each morning and so do our doggies.

That's so funny. Yeah. I gotta have my, my night owl, man.

Yeah. Well, put that in there. I mean, these, these are the things that are super important for compatibility. So there you go. All right, and then let me know when you're ready for the wine app.

I know, no, I'm serious. Like, I'm yesterday.

All right, and if you're listening, you just let us know if you want the wine app and we'll get on it. All right, well, thank you so much, Melanie. I look forward to coming back and connecting with you on your show too. And I'll put everything in the show notes at jjvirgin.com/avalon.

Awesome, thank you, JJ. This is awesome.