EP 207: AI Will Allow Us All to Make Music We Enjoy

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We talk all the time about different generative AI, you know, text to text or text to photo. But there's something I think, and a product that I really personally love that I think we should all listen to, and that's text to music. And today's story, today's episode I think is going to be a special one. I think you're going to love it. All right, welcome. Thank you for joining us and welcome to Everyday AI. My name is Jordan Wilson and I am the host and Everyday AI is for you. It is a daily livestream podcast and free daily newsletter helping everyday people like you and me not just learn what's going on in the world of generative AI, but how we can all actually leverage it.

Right?

That's important because we can hear about all these different tools and techniques and tactics, but it doesn't really mean much if we can't use it to grow our companies and to grow our careers. So that is what Everyday AI is all about. And I hope that you know whether you're listening on the podcast, this one's going to be a fun one, I guarantee you. But if you're listening on the podcast, make sure as always, to check out the show notes, look in the podcast description. We have links so you can go join our daily newsletter, other related shows, etc and if you are joining us live on the live stream, thank you for all, all of you joining us. So let's get in. And before we talk about how AI can allow us all to make music that we enjoy, let's first go over the AI news. All right, so first piece of news actually dropped right after our live show yesterday. We got it in the newsletter, but we got to talk about it. So Nvidia has unveiled its Chat with rtx. So Nvidia just launched Chat with rtx. It's a local AI chatbot app. The tool utilizes retrieval augmented generation, so RAG and Nvidia's Tensor RT LLM software. So the Chat with RTX helps users analyze. It can help users analyze videos, documents on their local machine, but it does require a PC with an Nvidia RTX 30 or 40 series GPU. So keep that in mind. And also the chatbot leverages or can leverage AI models like Mistral or Llama 2 to provide near instant responses, making it a promising tool for data analysis and research. So users can integrate different tools in local files, different file formats such as text, PDF documents, etc, and even pull in information from YouTube videos and playlists into the RTX chatbot for contextual queries. All right, next piece of AI news. It's been a busy 24 hours if you follow the space. So renowned AI researcher Andre Karthi has departed OpenAI for what he said were personal projects. So Karthi is a founding member of OpenAI and, and has left and he announced this on his Twitter or X page, that he was leaving to focus on personal projects. So the departure was amicable as he did announce it himself and he said there is no issues at OpenAI and he did praise the team and talked about its exciting roadmap ahead. So he is widely regarded as one of the most brilliant minds in AI and he had previously actually kind of second stint at OpenAI. So he worked originally at OpenAI and then he went to Tesla and kind of headed their AI for five years and then just came back to OpenAI. So there's going to be a lot of talk around this. We do know that he was working on a project that he was calling Jarvis, presumably with agents or assistants. So I'm guessing, you know, I know this is the new section, but I'm guessing maybe there was something happening in the agents or assistant space that, you know, maybe caused them to leave for personal reasons. We'll see. All right, and then last but not least, Chat GPT is getting a more personalized memory. So OpenAI's chatbot application, Chat GPT is introducing a new feature called Persistent Memory, which this new memory feature will save users time by avoiding the need to repeat information in multiple chat sessions. So right now it is being tested in small groups for free and plus users, but will eventually be available to all subscribers. Well, we don't know if it will eventually be available for free. And plus subscribers right now they're at least testing it with both. So if you do get this feature, you should receive a pop up or you can just check in your Chat GPT settings for a new personalization tab. Also, some users who received early access are also reporting the memory feature can be toggled on and off in the custom GPT section as well. All right, so you didn't tune in. Well, maybe you did. You didn't tune in today to talk about the AI news. You probably tuned in to talk about how we can use AI to make music we all enjoy. So thank you for joining us live. This one, I think is going to be a treat. So to all of our live stream audience. Thank you as always for joining us. Tara from Nashville, Brian from Minnesota, second Brian from Mississippi. Golf Gulf Coast. You know, Monica is saying, yeah, so much impactful AI news today. Yeah, there's always more. So make sure you go to your everyday AI.com and sign up for that free daily newsletter. But I'm excited now we're going to bring on our guest for today, so please help me welcome to the show. There we go. All right, so we have Mikey Shman, who is the CEO of suno. Mikey, thank you for joining the show.

Great to be here. Thanks for having me.

All right, so tell us, tell us a little bit about what SUNO is.

So we think of ourselves as a music company and I guess most of us listen to music only. So kind of you have Spotify or Apple Music or one of those other services and you passively stream music all day long. Some of the time you're paying attention, the rest of the time, maybe you're not even paying attention. And there's just so much more to music that we can experience. And so that's what we try to bring to people. You know, I usually point out to people that the gaming industry is like 30 or 50 times bigger, bigger than the music industry. And it's because games are really, really active. And so I think of the company's mission as kind of uncovering the other 49/50 of all of the ways that we're trying to experience music. Creating music yourself is one of them. But there's a lot more that comes after that. So that's what we do in a nutshell. It's also a lot of fun if you're a music lover. Making music all day and letting people make music all day and letting people smile with the music they make, it's a pretty cool job.

So I do have to get a full disclosure out here. So I've used, and I'm not exaggerating when I say this, obviously I review a lot of gen software. We have people reaching out all the time to get on the show. I say no to most of them. I reached out to Mikey because the first time I used suno, I was like, wait, what? I actually remember running upstairs and showing it to my wife because I'm like, I couldn't believe this. You know, what, what has the reaction been so far to the product? Because I would say it's a fairly unique offering in the new generative AI space.

Yeah, I think, you know, by and large, people like it and, you know, Maybe in some sense it's surprising, but in another sense it's not really all that surprising. You know, humans are really wired to want to make music and somehow as we grow older, we kind of get acculturated to not think to make music. I don't know how many people, you know, when you ask them like, do you play an instrument? And they'll say, oh, you know, I played a lot of piano growing up, I haven't touched it in 10 years. So I don't really make music. And I think that's, that's really too bad. I think all you need to do is, is find a 2 year old and see how that 2 year old thinks about music and rocking out and just to know how wired we are to do it. So I think by and large people love it. The other amazing thing is to see people sharing the music that they make and sometimes it is really whimsical. I'll just give you a funny anecdote. You know, one of the, one of the first things that is stuck in my head of when we realized how cool this is is still when it was an internal tool. I went to Starbucks with one of my co founders and he puts in, his name is Martin and his coffee comes out with the name Margot. And we make a song about it and like this moment now is just stuck in our brains and it's light and it's funny and there's levity and it's just, it's just we get a laugh out of it and now we re listen to this song and then there's like this totally other end of the spectrum of people just pouring themselves into music and it's like, yeah, I don't make music, but I write well and I can, I can write you a song and, and it's going to come out and it's going to be me inside of that song, even though I'm not a musician. And so there's just so much that we are able to bring to people that, that makes them smile and gives them an outlet and yeah, it's, it's amazing.

So Mikey, I'm curious, you know, what led to the creation, right? Is it with, you know, your own musical background, is it, you know, maybe you were trying other tools and you really wanted something better. Like what, what led you, you know, and I'm sure you have a very talented team you're working with, but what led you all to say, hey, let's create something that brings music to everyone with something as simple as text. What what led to that decision?

You know, I, I'll say, I'll say a couple of things there. I, I, I am a very mediocre musician and so it's cool to, to build myself tools that make me into, you know, a slightly better music maker. But I'll just tell you, like, my co founder Martin literally met his wife at a jam session and like, this is, this is amazing music. Music brings people together and there was just this realization that we do not experience all of the ways that we are meant to experience music. And if we can build technologies to give people that, then, then we can do it. And so I think the, the biggest realization is that music, more than any other kind of media is, has this massive gap between people's abilities, let's say the average person's ability to make music versus people's tastes. Most people do not really have the ability to make music. They don't play an instrument, they don't know some complicated production software, but they know exactly what they like. You know, you stop some random person in the street. What kind of music do you like? Oh, I really like rock, but like, I also really like reggae. And I know those things don't really work together, like whatever it is, right? Everybody's like that. And so I think, take text for example. Most people can write and most people don't really have developed tastes in text. And so it's that gap between what's in people's heads and what's in people's fingers, let's say that we are able to fill. But then the last thing I'll say is I, I, we try very hard not to think about this as text to music in the sense that we're trying to bring this to everybody, not just professional musicians. And so I think the average person does not think I want to write some text and out will come music. And I don't know all of the ways in which people want to interact with this, but this is just like, how can we let the average person make music? And we're starting with, you know, text descriptions now, but I think we have bigger appetites than that in the future.

Let's, well, let's, let's talk about that. You know, what, what does the future look like, you know, and whether you want to, you know, talk us through, from, from Suno side or just, you know, the industry, like what does the future of, of AI and music even look like? Right? Because when I, I mean when I use the product, I've personally used it, I've enjoyed It. But I can't even like, fathom maybe because I was so blown away, I can't really fathom like, what's next either for the product or, or, or for the industry. Like, where else can this go?

Yeah, we've got a lot of stuff coming. You know, I'll say, I'll say a couple of things. We want to let people really pour themselves into the music that they're making. And so maybe you're a singer and maybe, like me, you're a poor singer, but we can let you kind of sing as inspiration into, into the machine and out will come the right stuff. Maybe you want to just like, tap your fingers on your desk and, and use that as inspiration and cues. So, so there's lots of different things. More than just kind of the descriptions and the lyrics that, that, that people can do right now. I think of this really as like, the ability to soundtrack your life. You know, you're just walking down the street, all of the noises you're going to hear, all of the things that you're going to see, these are inspiration. And, you know, songwriters today are walking down the street and using that as inspiration. And so why can't I, do you think that?

You know, because one thing I always think about is how different generative AI technologies may eventually impact professional industries. And I think that's been very cut and dry for, you know, as an example, large language models, right? We've already seen, you know, unlimited use cases on, on how you can use a large language model to, to help grow your company, to help grow your career. What about AI in, in the music industry? You, you know, I'm, I'm sure there's other, you know, softwares and small use cases that have been around for, for a long time, but is this something, do you see whether it's, it's your platform or just, you know, something else? Is this kind of the future of music production where maybe it's more generative AI and maybe it's less kind of, you know, human voices or, you know, people making, you know, actual, you know, music on, on a board or in a software program? How, how impactful do you think AI will be to this industry?

I think AI will be fairly impactful to kind of all parts of the music industry. You already start to see this. This is not new. You know, things like Cher doing the first auto tune on a hit record. Like that's kind of AI. We really don't focus on that. We are focused on making, you know, the next random person you bump into in the street, how do we give them more access to music? And so we are focused on the workflows that that person can use, not that a professional can use, and just an opinion. I don't think we're ever really going to lose our connection to artists. And so there's a lot that AI can do to help artists make music faster, get the ideas in their heads into. Into charting songs. It's just not what we focus on. So I know that that will be a big industry. I just think the mission for us is to. Is to change how the average person is interacting with music. And I really don't think that destroys the relationship you have with artists. And I think just. Just as a. As an example, the. There's a lot of stuff out there of people doing covers. So it's like, let me make a new Taylor Swift song or let me let Taylor Swift cover Enter Sandman by Metallica. And while those tend to go viral, they are a little kitschy. And it's because, you know, Taylor Swift didn't do it. And so you don't have the same connection with her. You know, you have a connection with Taylor Swift because her music speaks to you for various reasons. And so, uh, yeah, I just don't think that that is so interesting, to be honest.

So, you know, I'm curious because certain things I can wrap my heads around or I can wrap my head around. Right. Like a large language model. Right. A large language model is essentially trained on, you know, the. The open Internet and it's ingested all of this information. So, you know, maybe dipping one technical toe in the water here. How does it work for AI music? Because, you know, it not only creates the.

The.

The actual, you know, I guess the beat or the. The melody, but it also creates the. The words, the lyrics, and the actual voice. How does that actually work, like, you know, without getting super technical? But how do you train, you know, a model to be able to create great music, great vocals, and to put it all together?

Yeah, it's funny. It actually works very similarly to a large language model. There are kind of two main techniques people will use for music. There's diffusion, and there's Transformers.

There's.

We are fans of Transformers, given some of our background doing text before this adventure. But I would say the cool thing about audio and music in particular is that it's kind of behind the wonderful worlds of images and text. And so we have the good fortune to kind of look at those domains and figure out what's working and figure out what's not? And basically what we're able to do is focus really hard on how do we represent audio in the right way so that you can basically discretize it and turn it into like little words or little tokens. And we spend all day and all night thinking about that problem and then borrowing from the wonderful open source community, all of the great things that have made LLMs work pretty well in text and that's been really good for us. It's made us not have to reinvent the wheel. So it actually does work like an LLM. It's just like a lot of next token prediction. Just these tokens don't necessarily correspond to anything. Super intuitive.

Yeah, no, yeah, that, that, that makes sense. Yeah. Thanks for breaking that down. So, hey, if you're joining us live, we are going to do a little demo here in a minute, but if you do have a question for Mikey, make sure to get it in a couple, couple quick ones here. So two from Tara. So she's asking, are the audio down marks water or. Sorry, are the audio downloads watermarked? And then also can the downloads be used for commercial. Commercial purposes? We'll, we'll give you two at once.

Those are, those are great questions. So in taking those in order, we do have the ability to figure out if a song is ours. You can't hear that, but we definitely do. The legal landscape around AI and copyright is like kind of complex and rapidly changing. So I'll tell you the way it stands right now, which is that if you're a paying user, it's $10 a month. You can use your music for whatever purposes you want. You own it, you can put it on Spotify. If you get a billion streams and make a lot of money. We don't ask for any of it. You can. Yeah, I mean, assume, assuming you're doing something legal with it, you can do whatever you want.

Have, have there been people that have maybe launched a little, you know, music career so far?

Absolutely.

Using your platform. Yeah.

Okay. Absolutely. And the cool, the cool thing is, you know, we're seeing things that it's, it's, it's, we're seeing people put together like tiny concept albums. Like here are 10 little songs, here are 10 one minute songs that tell a story. And like, I think that's so cool. I think that's like not something that I've really experienced before with music.

All right, well, let's, let's do something cool. Let's, let's maybe experience some, some music here, Mikey. So let's Go ahead. So hopefully everyone can hear this. If you're on the live stream, let us know. We. We normally don't share. Share live audio, but maybe walk us a little bit through what we have right here. So we have an AI Love song. So. So tell us. Tell us about what this is, Mikey.

Yeah. So Happy Valentine's Day. It's Valentine's Day and it's such a good opportunity for people to experience more than just listening to music. And so a great chance to make a song for someone. So I actually made you a song, Jordan, in honor of today. And. And so we can. We can go through it together. But I'll show you this. We have a little experience where you can just enter a few things about your valentine and out will pop a lovely song. So I entered a few things that I love about your podcast, your live stream, and about you, and I made you a song. So hopefully this plays. Let's. Let's give it a try.

I met you at the everyday you caught my eye your voice so sweet it made me wanna fly. Oh, yeah. Your knowledge of I do my mind, it's true. But what really got me was that incredible head.

Oh, man, I love it. I love it working in the hair dude too, you know, I know. You know, Mike, Forgy might. Might be jealous of that one. One of our other listeners and former guests that I got a comment on. My hair. Hey, and let us know if. If you're listening on the live stream. Normally we don't share audio. Let us know if you heard that. But so that's. It seems so like, realistic. Right. And that's what I was blown away with. Mikey, the first time I used your platform is I wasn't expecting something that sounded so polished and professional. I mean, how is this even done?

Yeah, it's. You know, when we set out to do this, we said we were going to do audio the right way, which is kind of honestly building something that looks like GPT. And it was a lot of hard work at the beginning. And at the beginning, the audio did not sound good. You know, we're a little over six months after releasing our first model, and if you go back and you listen to those clips, you would not say that it sounds polished or even maybe interesting. So, yeah, it's. I don't know. It's been really fulfilling to see some of the progress. I. I wonder how you feel about making a song live together.

Let's do it. Let's do it. We. Yeah, we plan this, you know, because I want people to see, you know, the process. Because sometimes working with, you know, large language model or generative AI, you know, sometimes you don't always see what happens in the little black box. And, you know, sometimes it takes a lot of work. So, yeah, let's, let's do it live, Mikey. Let's, let's go ahead and make, make.

Some music live, make a valentine. And we can, if there's time, we can make a song. On our regular platforms just for those listening, we have this little kind of form that lets you make a song for your valentine. You can go to vdaysong.com and it'll bring you here. So, Jordan, I guess I'm gonna drive for you. Who, who is your valentine?

It's definitely Monica.

Okay, and tell me, where did you and Monica meet?

So we met in Springfield, Illinois. All right, and let me. I'm gonna, I'm gonna, like, give, give everyone. So if you're listening on the podcast, very cool interface. Each time, you know, Mikey's being prompted with a question and the, you know, the art is really cool, by the way. So, yeah, he's just. We're going through this, this kind of prompt process. It's very easy. It does it for you. All right, so we got, we got Springfield, Illinois.

Any, any more color where in Springfield?

We could say, I mean, we can make it fun. We could say second and fourth. It's kind of, kind of like streets that, that we held held true to our hearts. You could say.

Amazing. I love that. And what makes Monica so special?

Oh, she's, she's an amazing, amazing woman. I'd say the, the number one, like, supporter of any and everything. Not just I do, but anyone in our, our friends, families. She's literally the biggest cheerleader that anyone could ask for in their life.

All right, let's see how we do. From Jordan.

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All right, this was. This was easy. So literally, Mikey's just doing this live. He's asking me questions, typing in something, something. It seems so easy, right? It's not even confusing. So now we're getting some. Some prompts from the. The Suno Valentine machine that it's processing, and it's done. My gosh. That was like 10 seconds.

Let's. Let's hear it.

Let's hear it.

Honestly, in the town we first cross paths, Springfield, Illinois. Second four. In a crowded place my eyes locked me yours and I knew right then you were something more. Monica, you're an amazing woman. The number one support always stay day after death your guiding angel sp.

So we'll actually make you three if you want to hear another one.

Oh, let's. Let's hear version two. My gosh. This is. This is fun. This is so fun for me.

All right, we're gonna hear that one in Spanish. I don't know.

Let's go. Let's. Let's do the Spanish one, because I think her family might appreciate that one.

Okay, great. It skipped, Huh? Well, that's embarrassing. Let's go to number three.

You're smiling up the street the laughter caught my soul in that moment I knew you were my missing role, Monica, My inspiration, my guiding light. You're the reason I wake up. Stolen my life the love you give to others extract like no other.

Oh, man. So good. And like, if you're listening on the podcast. All right, I'm. Admittedly, I'm a softy, but that, especially that first one you, like, you got me in my feels, Mikey. Like, I was like, man, like, it felt. Even though we just went through a quick, like, 10 to 20 second prompt, there was something that said, like, you know, in a crowded room, our eyes meet, right? Like, who knew that generative AI could, like, make a piece of music so quickly, so personalized? And it, like, I felt that, right? I'm like, man, that was so good.

You know, I think, right? You. You clearly know Monica really well. You clearly know what is so special about her. Why shouldn't you be able to do something creative like this and pour yourself into it, even if you don't play an instrument. And one way to think about generative AI is it gives you the ability to do that, man. You know what?

Something I've never talked about before is actually on our wedding day, you know, she had all these great surprises for me. I tried to do something where, you know, I got some friends and, you know, we kind of sang a song and, you know, I produce something, but I'm like, man, it probably would have been better if I would have had something like this. Maybe would have sounded better. So. All right, we have a lot of questions here, so great ones too. So Tanya is asking, can you prompt certain styles when using the platform?

You sure can. I don't know how we're doing on time. I can. We can do a song together if you want to.

Oh, hey, let's go, you know, let's do it this show. You know, hey, we. We normally cap it on the guest, but we can do another one.

Let's. Let's just create a song real fast. So like, I. I want to make a. I don't know, funk song about. About AI how about a happy AI?

Cool. And so, and so now we're. We're outside of the kind of special Valentine interface. So this is the normal. The normal SUNO interface. So you're able to just type in a simple description and it's. I mean, it's already done with like two of them. The speed of this still just boggles my mind. So it generates four at a time, is that right?

It generates two. I actually just hit it twice to kind of tease some. Some new capabilities we have coming out. A new model we'll have coming out. So I'll just use the. The new Model 1. So let's see how, how we do new model.

Well, I got a focus circuit running through my code. I'm a digital machine with a boogie in my soul. So I'm an AI, baby. Yeah, one of a kind. Got that groove in my algorithms. Go your mind.

And maybe I'll just show one. One quick thing. I'm going to hit this remix button, which is going to let you kind of start to change things in the song. And so let's say I heard that and I'm like, ah, it's not exactly what I want. I really wanted like, more 1960s funk. And. And then I'll just. And then I'll just. I can just redo it and, and, and change things. Or I could change some of the lyrics that I didn't like or something like that. And the idea is to get People actually involved in the minutiae of making music, but not in the minutia of. Of how, let's say, a professional musician might do it. So here's the 1960s funk version.

Blow your mind.

So a lot of fun here.

So, so good. So good. All right, we have a couple other questions. I want to make sure we can get to some of these big ones. So Rolando is asking, what languages does Suno support.

A lot. I can't rattle them off for you, but. But pretty. Probably at least 25 with varying degrees of success. So English is pretty good, Spanish is pretty good. German is pretty good. And then. And then Hindi is pretty good. Mandarin is okay. And then I think Japanese is pretty good. And then I'm gonna. I'm gonna tail off in my ability to list them all off.

All right, and then Michael joining us on YouTube. What's up, Michael? So he's asking, can you change beats per minute? So we saw you go in and quickly change, you know, the genre and, you know, the decade, but can you change, like specific down to, like, beats per minute?

So the answer is sort of, you know, right now we are working on, like, more fine grain control like that, because I think that is a really good way to try to do stuff. But right now you can kind of do like fast or slow or up tempo as kind of the descriptive words here. Right now you can't really say 142 beats per minute.

Yeah, okay. All right. So. So Woozy hears that he stopped listening for a second and hopped over to Suno to try. Try it. Very cool. So right now, and correct me if I'm wrong there, you. You guys have like a pretty good, like, free plan as well, right? Like, anyone listening can go sign up. And it's, it's, it's. Tell us a little bit about the free plan. And you said, you know, with the, the paid plan, you can, you know, commercialize, you know, if you want to. But can you just tell people, you know, a little bit about the two different plans?

Totally. Actually, the first thing I'll say is this Valentine's experience, vdaysong.com is just unpaywalled. So go, go, go have fun. Go nuts. Our free plan will give you five songs a day. And so, you know, the idea here is to give this to people and really let them experience the joys of making music. GPUs aren't free for us. And so after that, it gets. It gets a little bit painful. And so there's, there's two paid Tiers that give you different access to just how many generations you can do. But there's a $10 a month plan, there's a $30 a month plan, gives you a lot more than five a day, gives you access to all sorts of other things, top up credits, et cetera, et cetera. So, yeah, I mean, people are sometimes actually surprised at how generous the free, the free tier is. And it's amazing to make people smile. So we're happy to do it.

Yeah, I love this. I love this. You know, Mike, we could, we could do this all day. So if you are listening on the podcast, don't worry, we're going to have all of these URLs and a little bit more about Suno in the show notes, so make sure to check that out. But you can, you know, as we wrap it up and I'm so glad we got to do this live, we got to talk about, you know, big picture of where the industry is going. Maybe what's, what's your one either, you know, piece of advice for people who want to kind of live at this, you know, intersection of AI and music and bring some creativity to their lives, or maybe just where you think, you know, the industry is going with, with AI and music, maybe. Mikey, what are your kind of parting words for the Everyday AI guests?

I think, yeah, just thinking about how there are different ways to experience music from how you probably normally do and to keep an open mind because we don't know all of the ways that people want to do that. And so I think just going through your normal everyday life and trying to think that through is, is important for the companies like us trying to do it, but also important for everybody who's using it to, to find their inspiration. I think, yeah, I'm really excited about the future of AI and music. It's going to touch so many parts of the industry, from consumers to professionals to listeners to hobbyists. It's really, really early innings. It's really, really exciting.

Oh, same. And you know, I think you mentioned one thing, you know, kind of being the soundtrack to people's lives and bringing a smile to my face because this one definitely, you know, brought, brought a smile to my face. One of my favorite episodes so much. Mikey, thank you so much for joining the Everyday AI show. We really appreciate your time.

So great to be here. Thank you.

All right, and hey, as a reminder, go to your everyday AI.com Sign up for the free daily newsletter. We're going to be recapping and highlighting all of the things we did. Probably we'll be able to, you know, maybe even share share one of the downloads that we did live here on the show. So make sure you go sign up for the daily newsletter and make sure you join us tomorrow and every day for more Everyday AI. Thanks, y'.

All.

And that's a wrap for today's edition of Everyday AI. Thanks for joining us. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and leave us a rating. It helps keep us going for a little more AI magic. Visit your everydayai.com and sign up to our daily newsletter so you don't get left behind. Go break some barriers and we'll see you next time.