EP 219: Rebuilding The Staffing Industry: How to get more women in AI roles

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How can we get more women in AI roles? I think it's probably easier said than done. I think we need to, you know, break some old stereotypes. But I also think we need to have these conversations on how we can, you know, really just change the way that that tech and IT roles just, just work here, especially in the U.S. so I'm excited to talk about that today. Don't worry, it's not, it's not just me. We have a great guest that I'm excited to bring on the show. So welcome to Everyday AI. This is your daily live stream podcast and free daily newsletter helping everyday people like you and me not just learn generative AI, but how we can all leverage it to grow our companies and to grow our careers. Right? But hey, we got to make sure that the right people are in the right roles. And that's what today's episode is all about. So normally we do this coming to you live every day at 7:30am Central Standard Time, but that time doesn't always work out for everyone. So although we are debuting this show live, it's technically pre recorded. But don't worry, I'll be in the comments as always. So ask your questions, I'll do my best to answer. But don't worry, you still can get your daily dose of AI news. So make sure you go to your everyday AI dot com. Sign up for the free daily newsletter. We'll be recapping today's show as well as everything that's going on in the world of artificial intelligence. Don't worry, we don't miss a beat, so you won't either. All right? And I tell people, I mean on our website, your everyday AI dot com. Let me say that again slower. Your everydayai dot com. Right. When I say it 50 times a day, it just starts to all become one word. But hey, that website is literally, I think, probably the best single source of unbiased information on generative AI out there, period. More than 200 plus episodes where we dive into anything. So no matter what you want to learn, if you want to go back and read our old newsletters, if you want to read about, you know, know, AI in career, AI in sales, AI and entrepreneurship, it's all there. So go check that out. But let's talk about how we can rebuild the staffing industry and how we can get more women in AI roles. I'M excited for today's conversation. So let's go ahead get, get my big head off the screen and bring on, bring on an actual expert in the field. So here we go. Donna Fenera is the VP of Women Impact Tech. Donna, thank you so much for joining the Everyday AI show.

Thank you, Jordan. Thank you for having me.

Oh, absolutely. And let's start a. Hi. Just can, like, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do in your role at Women Impact Tech?

Sure. So I'm a vice president for corporate, corporate partnerships. So at Women Impact Tech, we are a full staffing company, full talent solution company. In addition to that, we hold. So sorry. Typical. No, I'm sorry about. We hold several events, three regional events in the country. It'll be Chicago, San Francisco and New York this year. In addition to virtual events, we also have private events that we hold at corporations. We have a membership program and we have a job board as well.

Okay. I love it. So, so even, I mean, let's just get straight to the details of this, of this episode and of our talk. But you know, we called this episode rebuilding. Right. So to me that means there's things broken. I think there's obviously a lot of things broken when it comes to elevating women into roles. But, but Donna, I mean, can you give us a little bit, you know, from your experience, right. Like why is, is, is, you know, AI roles or tech roles, why are they so skewed toward men?

There's a lot of bias for some reason or another. And this is part of our mission is something that we want to change. Our purpose for doing this is 75% of men hold these technical roles in the United States. It's even less when you go global. Believe it or not, only 20% globally of women, 23 point. I think 8% of women hold them in the US and it has a lot to do with bias. It has a lot to do with, I believe men not thinking that women could really hold these roles for a lot of different reasons. There's some major biases that are going on and stereotyping as well.

Hey, hey. I'm going to go ahead and speak for all men. Men, can we stop sucking please and let, let women take on these roles because I think we'll be surprised there. You know, I think some of my favorite shows on Everyday AI are from women because, you know, I think to come out and speak about AI and Donna, I'd love to hear, you know, your take on this. I think for whatever reason, you have to be courageous. I mean, Donna, what's your take on this? You've probably worked with closely with a lot of women, kind of breaking this barrier down to take on big roles in AI and tech. What are some maybe traits or characteristics that you think really help women succeed into getting into these roles?

Yeah, I've been very lucky to meet a lot of high level women that are in the tech space and I could see that they're risk takers, they have a lot of confidence and you know, they're willing to take a chance. I think that has a lot to do with it. Oh, I have my doggie here, my Luca. So sorry about that. But yeah, they're willing to take a chance without a doubt and they have a sense of confidence. So that's a good recommendation for a lot of women out there. Do not give up. If you find a role that you're not really that happy in, change, there's no problem with that whatsoever. And then really have, you know, try as much confidence through a lot of networking, through finding a mentor possibly to help you with that confidence that that will help as well.

So, so how long have these, you know, even the in person events, how long have these been going on?

We were doing these in person events for the last five years. We have them at the convene conference centers in those locations in Chicago, San Francisco and New York this year. And we yielded about 1200 women technologists that join us at these events. We have keynote speakers in Fortune 500 companies, we have panel discussions and info sessions. So we're filled with great topics that help women in technology. Also the networking events. So the sponsors come in and they're expecting to network. There's half of the women that are actively looking for positions and maybe the other half aren't. But we provide a full database to all the sponsors that do come in and it's a great opportunity to get insight and knowledge in the tech field along with, you know, hopefully finding a career spot that, you know, is a higher level than the one that they have already, you know.

So I'm curious, has the conversation around, you know, women in AI roles, has it changed at all? You know, in the five years? Have you seen it like, is there positive momentum happening or is it still just an extremely uphill battle?

You know, I'm seeing that about 16% of the women are actually leaving the industry for one reason or another, which is unfortunate. So our mission is really to keep it and to increase it and just even the playing field with men and women within the field. Have I seen a change? You know, there's a lot of people that are women that are very excited about being in the field and, you know, actively looking for leadership roles within the field as well. And then there's women that are, you know, very disappointed. And I hear a lot of those sad stories about how they're being treated within their organizations. But I think a lot of corporations are making a change to change the culture for women in technology today. So that is a good thing.

You know, maybe to someone, you know, someone in, you know, in their last couple of, you know, years or last couple of semesters of college and they want to break into tech, they want to break into AI. You know, given your experience and working with, you know, hundreds of women breaking into AI roles, what's some advice that you would give to a young woman trying to break into this field right now?

Yeah, I would say start to network, try to find some membership programs, if that's a possibility. Go onto LinkedIn, increase your network there and try to find a mentor. There are plenty of people. We have them at our events. We have a mentor mentee session. That's fantastic. It's one of those sessions that you can't get them apart. So we have a mentor that will give great advice to mentees. So we do like five in one and it's impossible to get them apart, you know, for the next session where you have to, you know, get on the microphone and say, hey, listen, you have to break this up now. So I would suggest that especially at that age, find a mentor in the field. If anybody wants to get in touch with me, I could try to help do that. But really increase your network and begin to network, branch out and start making connections.

You know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna come in here with, with a hot take. This isn't planned, but I was just thinking this, Donna, as you were saying that. You know what I, I think with so many AI roles now, especially, you know, when we're talking about generative AI roles, when we're talking about, you know, maybe roles, you know, working with or working at companies that produce large language models, I think one of the most important and maybe under, like underutilized or under marketed skill sets for working in a AI right now is communication. Right. Even when it comes to things like prompting, when it comes to things like, you know, building or tuning, you know, large language models, like good, solid communication is so important. And it's no secret men suck at communication. I think women are much better, you know, across The Board of Communication. Maybe, you know, with that in mind, Donna, maybe what are some specific skill sets, right, that maybe you've seen that certain companies value or just skill sets, you know, aside from, you know, networking, maybe what are some skill sets specific to AI or tech roles that you can really encourage women to either, you know, hey, if you have those, make sure you're, you're marketing those or to, to build them.

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In terms of skill sets. Oh my God, that, that's kind of a tough one for me. What do you mean by skill sets that their, their job title or their skills in terms of, you know, personal skills that they have? Give me an idea.

Sure.

Yeah, so, so either, yeah, we're talking, you know, maybe soft skills. Like as an example, you know, you're networking, you're communicating communication, or it could be just, you know, specific skill sets related to, you know, AI roles, tech roles. I mean, you know, what are some, I guess, examples of those skill sets that can really help, you know, women elevate their position or elevate kind of their, you know, eligibility for more AI roles?

I'm thinking in terms of even communication being more detailed oriented. I think that could be a good skill set that they could develop better communication. There's a lot of women in tech that are introverts. If they could find skills that they can make them a little bit more extroverted, that would help. Without a doubt. We hear that a lot, that a lot of women in tech are quiet, they're more reserved, they're more introverted, they. I think a skill set to develop a little bit better communication would definitely help within the field.

I love that. And, and you know, so I feel there's always, you know, multiple entities, you know, involved. Right. When you are looking at, you know, a, a problem like this. You know, Donna, you mentioned that there's biases and it's hard for women to get into tech and AI roles. And it's even maybe just as hard to stay in there because of some of these, you know, ongoing biases. Right, right. That women have to face. You know, maybe what, what roles are, you know, larger companies in corporations? Like, are you seeing, you know, corporations step up and to create, you know, good programs and support systems? Do you think larger corporations need to be doing more? What are your thoughts on that? And maybe if you do have an example or two of. I'm sure you're working with a lot of big, big businesses, big corporations, but maybe just walk us through what roles businesses and corporations should be playing.

There's so many AI roles within organizations. They're developing every single day. This is a market that's really going to explode, without a doubt. So the ML and the AR roles are definitely increasing. I'm finding that with a lot of different companies, every company that I'm speaking with, they're going to bringing on a lot of AI roles within their organizations. For the Fortune 500 and even the startups, I mean, there's so many startups, I wrote down a couple of them like you and Zenny and Euro Unit one built. There's so many of these smaller companies that are bringing on these individuals as well. There's a lot of different ways that women could really fall into these AI and ML roles within organizations. It's not only the Fortune 1000s or Fortune 500s companies all over the place, we're noticing that so many are increasing the AR roles within their organizations right now.

So you, you dropped a stat earlier and I want to go back to that and dig in a little deeper. So there's obviously, you know, problems, you know, probably going against women and, you know, having them get their, you know, maybe first big role in AI or first big role in tech, but you know, staying there. Right. As well. Could you tell us that stat one more time? Just about the percentage of women leaving these roles and then maybe let's dive in a little bit deeper on, on why that that might be. So what was that stat again? And let's, let's talk through that.

Yeah, so I mentioned that 16 are actually leaving because of the biases that they're finding within organizations. So, yeah, 16. That's a big percentage.

It is. And is that, like, after a certain, you know, onboarding period, like. Like, what does that 16% kind of entail? And then. And then, yeah, let's. Let's dive in and see why.

Yeah, yeah. I would say the first couple of years of joining a position, they're finding maybe about five years in that they're not happy and they want to find a different type of career. So I think, you know, everything that they expected, everything that they thought that they would learn and be promoted into, it's not really happening for them. That, you know, 16% are deciding, you know, this is just not for me, and finding other careers. A lot of it has to do with bias. You know, I was on the phone today with a company, it was really interesting, that has over 20 business units in it alone, and a woman vice president actually spoke up and says, you know what? There's too much bias here, and I'm not happy. So they're creating ERG groups to help the culture within that company, which I think is fantastic. So that's a start of it. But there are a lot of women that are finding that there is a tremendous amount of bias within these organizations and deciding to leave.

And, you know, let's even talk a little bit more about these, you know, employee resource groups that. That you just mentioned there. Do you think, you know, there should be more of these, you know, especially at tech companies? Because, yeah, like, I have to under, you know, I have to understand, you know, kind of like my privilege. Right. Like, it's very, you know, I think, much easier for me as a guy to be able to walk into a room and, you know, to be able to talk tech and for people to be like, okay, yeah, let's give this person a platform. But I know it's not as easy for women, and we need to change that. So, like, even with these, you know, employee resource groups, would you encourage more and more corporations to, you know, create these specifically around, you know, getting more women in AI and tech roles?

Yeah, absolutely, without a doubt. I think it was fantastic when I spoke to this company this morning that they are creating the CRG group that is really helping with the culture. They're finding out the issues, and they're developing ways on the culture could change. So I was very happy to hear that, without a doubt. And, you know, it's an ongoing process, but I think it's something that The CIO decided that he needed to do. It's also going to affect their bonuses. So all the men that are in charge, and unfortunately, there are all men in charge of these 20 business units within this company. But now they're set to a standard that they have to make a little bit of a change before they even could get some bonus. So I think the ergs are very, very important for the organizations because it'll help them develop a new culture within the organization.

So. So I want to talk about that a little bit more. So maybe not that specific, you know, company there, but you said, hey, there's. There's 20 groups and it's 20 men in charge of all of these. Right? So.

Right.

Let's say you were a different company because I don't want you to have to, you know, talk about a client or, you know, someone that you're working with. But, you know, if you were in charge, you know, at a, you know, large, you know, company, and let's say they had 50 groups and all 50 of them were, were men, like, what would you do? Or what are the steps that if, if someone's hearing this and, and they're like, wow, what Donna's saying, like, that's literally what's happening, you know, with. With within my organization. Right. What would you do or what specific advice would you give for. Give to people to kind of rebuild what that looks like?

Well, I Think Women in Pactech is a great organization that has 250,000 women technologists on our database looking to increase women or underrepresented groups within their organization. They go. Could go to a diverse staffing company where women zoned and LGBT owned as well and certified and really partner with some companies like that to get more women within their organization. It's an easy and fast way to start to do that. So I think that would be good advice for sure.

That's. Yeah, I think that's always good to have, you know, a resource kind of like, like what you said, you know, that's, that's a, a source that, that, that you all provide. But I mean, do you have any other, you know, just good, practical, you know, tips for people? Like, is it something that, you know, does it start from the ground up? Is it something that you need to talk about first with, you know, an advisory board, like committees? You know, you kind of did, you know, mention these, like, ergs, you know, you know, for ongoing, like, support and resources. But it is a big problem, right? It's, it's. It's a problem with the system, it's a problem with society. And I know there's no easy answer for this. Right. But I mean, what else could, you know, would you do in this, you know, situation or what else can others do? Right. Aside from tapping into a group like yours?

Well, I think that HR should pay attention and find out what's happening within their organizations, which is a great idea. They also have DE and I folks that are within their organizations that primarily focus on developing ERG groups and making sure that there's a diverse amount of people within the organization. So that's always helpful too. So I think between hr, the specific business units and then also DE and I, I think there's some nice changes that are starting to happen within organizations. They're really recognizing that there's an issue and I think things are beginning to change, which is a fantastic thing.

No, that's good. Yeah, and I think that's, yeah, that's a great, a great call out right there, you know. Yeah, like hr, like HR departments I think need to, need to take a look at this and be cognizant of, of, you know, representation across the board. You know, I'm so, I'm, I'm also wondering, Donna, like where, where do you see this? Right, so you just said that, you know, you're starting to see some positive change. Right. And I'm sure it's something that, you know, is on your mind, you know, a lot of. But where do you see this going, you know, in the coming months and in coming years when it comes to, you know, women being more represented and, and better highlighted in these visible roles within AI, you know, capacities. Where do you see this going or where do you hope that it goes?

Yeah, I see a lot of non profit groups really bringing this to light. So they're talking to a lot of high school students. They're really encouraging girls to get into tech and IT and engineering, which is fantastic. I also see a lot of other groups like Latina in tech, a lot of groups like us women in tech. There's so many right now. But I think as it goes on and it develops and grows more and more and more, we'll see some type of evening in the playing field between women and men. So I think it does start from the school, you know, the school age kids that people to go volunteer and talk to them over there. As long as we could get more of them involved, involved in this space, I think it'll be fantastic for them to join, I think.

Yeah, that's a great point. You know, you can't necessarily just change it, you know, at the, you know, early career or mid career level. You know, that's, that's a great call out there, Donna, that, you know, continued support for, you know, these earlier, you know, earlier life programs, you know. Yeah. Middle school, high school, etc. I think that's a great idea. So as like, so we've talked about a lot here, Donna, and as we wrap up the show, you know, maybe what's, what's one takeaway that you hope people hear specifically as it pertains to getting more women involved in AI roles? What is it that you know, the one message that you hope people take away from today's conversation or maybe what they can do to build or to be a part in rebuilding this industry.

I think the main thing is that we have amazing, amazing women in the IT side of the business and as long as they stay with it, don't get discouraged, stay confident. Don't be in a fear of losing anything. Don't be afraid to move on if you're not enjoying something that you're doing, you know, today. I think that those are the little bit of takeaways that I could suggest. Stay strong again, develop your network, find a mentor and I think that things will go in the absolute right direction.

Love that. Such, such great advice. Just bullet pointing and recapping it all for us at the end. This is so good. Donna, thank you so much for joining the Everyday AI show. We really appreciate you coming on and sharing your insights.

Thank you, Jordan. I appreciate it so much. Thank you.

And hey, as a reminder, a lot of great information out there. Make sure if you haven't already. If you want to know more about how we can get more women in AI roles, make sure you go subscribe to our newsletter@your everydayai.com we're going to be recapping today's conversation as well as putting some other resources that Donna talked about as well as probably some others that we're going to find some other great resources. So make sure you do go do that. If you do have questions, don't worry, I'll be here in the comments. Maybe Donna will as well. So get your questions in if you have them. Thank you for joining us and hope to see you back for more Everyday AI. Thanks y'. All.

And that's a wrap for today's edition of Everyday AI. Thanks for joining us. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and leave us a rating. It helps keep us going for a little more AI magic. Visit youreverydayai.com and sign up to our daily newsletter so you don't get left behind. Go break some barriers and we'll see you next time.