EP 22: Using AI in Medical Education

This is the Everyday AI show, the everyday podcast where we simplify AI and bring its power to your fingertips. Listen daily for practical advice to boost your career, business, and everyday life. How different will healthcare look once AI has cracked its way inside? That's one of the things that we're going to be talking about today on Everyday AI. This is your daily livestream, podcast and newsletter helping everyday people like you and me keep up with everything that's happening in the world of AI. Very excited. Today we have Ryan Martin as our guest. Ryan is the doctor of Physical therapy at the Advanced Musculoskeletal Ultrasound Center. Ryan, thank you so much for joining us.

Jordan, thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it.

All right, so I know that we already have some comments coming in, which is great. As a reminder, if you're watching this live, feel free to ask Ryan a comment. If you're listening this on the podcast or reading about in the newsletter, make sure to tune in live next time. I think it's much, much more fun to learn about AI together. So, Ryan, before we answer that question on what healthcare is going to look like once AI has just fully infiltrated, or if it will. Right, let's go over the news in AI and before I do this, a warning to everyone. There's a lot going on, so I'm going to take a quick sip, I'm going to go through this very fast, and then me and Ryan are going to chat about it. So here we go. Deep breath, here we go. Okay, so Google yesterday launched AI power ads and images in Bard, their ChatGPT competitor. Speaking of ChatGPT, ChatGPT announced that they are now browsing, allowing browsing inside ChatGPT with Microsoft Bing. So a much more powerful engine. And also that will be coming to all free users as well as paid users. And another one, ChatGPT and Bing AI plugins will all be working together. So speaking of Microsoft and Bing, so this is probably the biggest news of all. Microsoft announced that they're bringing AI to their entire Windows operating system when they announced at their Microsoft Build conference, Copilot. So essentially, Copilot is bringing smart AI into your actual computer, into your Windows machine. That was a little easier than I thought, Ryan. That's a lot to dissect in the news. What's like, what's your what. What's your take on all these Updates from. From OpenAI, from. From Google, from Microsoft?

That is a lot of information. I think some of the takeaways in there, I mean, first thing wow. But the fact that you said that Windows is going to integrate it right into your system, that. Unbelievable. Beyond that, ChatGPT and Bing really partnering and having that as your browser, I mean, think about all the possibilities that you could do with that.

I've always been a Mac person and when I saw this, I'm like, I want this. This looks like it's going to have a smart AI assistant on your actual computer that can help you with task that you're doing. To me, it's like, oh, gosh, I, I need this. I don't, I don't know. Do you like, do you want that? Are, are you a Mac person, Windows person? Each.

I'm a. Yeah, I'm a Windows person. I want it.

Yeah. I can't wait. Okay, so let's, let's talk a little bit about some, some things that are going on in the health in medical space when it comes to AI. And like I mentioned, feel free to drop Ryan a comment. I know we already have a couple here that I'll put on the screen. So a piece of news, Ryan, that I want to get your take on. So the World Health Organization recently issued a statement warning against the potential risk of using kind of these large language models like ChatGPT in the healthcare setting. What's, what's your reaction to that? It seems like two different things are going on. It seems like there's all these great developments being made with these large language models that can be used in the healthcare setting. But then you have one of the biggest governing bodies in WHO coming out and saying, hey, maybe not. How do you think this is going to shake out?

Well, I think on one of your previous shows somebody said the train has already left the station. Right. So, yeah, the governance and the regulation is obviously going to be there. Stopping it all together might be something difficult. We use, I mean, we use AI already. We've been using AI or at least that, you know, idea for a little while, but stopping it altogether and the WHO coming out and making that statement, I mean, that's a powerful statement. I guess it depends on the context of what are they going to stop, right? At what level are they going to stop, you know, AI. So I think that's my take on that is what do they mean by that? I'd have to go through and dissect, you know, what they said. But to me, at what level are they trying to stop it all together or certain applications of it, or they just don't want full automation? It depends on what I think, what they're trying to get at it. Right?

Yeah, it's, yeah, the train's left the station.

Right.

And we kind of talked about this pre show. But you know, I've, I've been in talking to my doctor before and I've seen my doctor use Google and I'm sure that's very common. So what's the difference? Right. Do you see a difference in those two things? I mean, maybe there is.

Well, if you start talking about like what's the difference between a search engine, which you may have said is dying before. I might have heard you said that.

Before, calling me out. I love it.

Right. I'm calling you out. No, I mean now you're talking the difference between a search engine and a language model. Right. And something that's intuitive, that has been known to have maybe hallucinations and some error factors in it to where of course search engines have plenty of errors too. Right. But I think because in the mainstream media so many people are talking about like all these, you know, hallucinations and, or issues and this deep fake and everything. And I think there's this, this FUD or this, you know, this, this fear that's kind of going on with all of this or, you know, and I think they're putting their statement out first. And again, I can't speak for them, I have no idea. But maybe they're putting the statement out to kind of just say, hey, let's back it up until we learn more and have more governance. Because we know that's coming.

Sure. So let's actually back it up. Let's talk a little bit about kind of what your day to day role looks like and just briefly how have you, or how might you be using AI kind of in your day to day role. So just explain to everyone a little bit about what that looks like.

So my role. Okay, so I, I am a physical therapist and an ultrasound specialist in muscle skeletal ultrasound. Meaning I don't look at kidneys or, or thyroids or anything like that. I don't look at babies. People always say, hey, you know, do you look at babies? No, I, I have no idea. I look at like shoulders, knees, hips, hands, wrists, those kind of things. So that's my specialty. And so I teach that. So I, I work in a couple clinics that I partner with and what we do is we, we teach this within our clinics. And so I'm kind of the educator role in that position there. And then I also have a, an education program where I teach, you know, MSK or Muscle Skull to Ultrasound. So then I guess your next question was how do I use AI? Well, how do I not use it? No, no, I have a couple tools, but you know, even. And again. Oh, I guess. Here we go. We're going to open the box here. Let's do it. Unlike the who is, I don't really use AI in the medical field. Like so when I'm in clinic, there's, there's nothing that I'm really using that we're calling generative. Generative language. You know, there's probably tools that we're all using anyway, you know, undercover tools that we, you know, just kind of use and it's using automated systems that we interact with. But in the clinic I'm not going into, you know, generative languages and utilizing that for patient data or anything like that. I don't do that. But when it comes to day to day tasks and things like that, I'm using all sorts. I mean, we could list a myriad of different tools that I use, but the things that I see are different than what I'm using right now. Now, does that mean I'm not going to try and implement them? As I learn more about some of the tools, they're going to be integrated into the clinic setting. Now the education setting is completely different. There's a lot of tools that I can see are going to be implemented in the, the education side of my job that are going to make my life so much easier. So. And again, a whole list of those.

Sure. So definitely outside tools like you bring up. But I think Tristan, who just just left a comment here, watching Live, great question. So he's saying, you know, what's the likelihood that Epic Systems, the health care software giant, begins to implement or work on AI additions to their software if they haven't already? First of all, Tristan, thank you for also asking that in a way that everyone outside of health care can understand. But you know, Rya, like, yeah, I think most people have, have heard of epic. Are these big, you know, I think that's an EMR system. Are these big companies going to be working AI into their EMRs? Are you still running in circles trying to figure out how to actually grow your business with AI? Maybe your company has been tinkering with large language models for a year or more, but can't really get traction to find ROI on gen AI? Hey, this is Jordan Wilson, host of this very podcast. Companies like Adobe, Microsoft and Nvidia have partnered with us because they trust our expertise in educating the masses around generative AI to get ahead and Some of the most innovative companies in the country hire us to help with their AI strategy and to train hundreds of their employees on how to use Gen AI. So whether you're looking for ChatGPT training for thousands or just need help building your front end AI strategy, you can partner with us too. Just like some of the biggest companies in the world do. Go to your everyday AI.com partner to get in contact with our team or you can just click on the partner section of our website. We'll help you stop running in those AI circles and help get your team ahead and build a straight path to ROI on gen.

Yeah, I mean, again, you're talking these big systems that have to face bureaucratic, you know, regulations and government and policies and just like, you know, and so because they're dealing with patient data, things that are going to deal with Medicare, Medicaid, government affiliations, things like that. Yeah, they're going to, most definitely, probably. I'm not speaking for epic, I have no idea. But I already know that there's EMR systems coming out, you know, specific to my field, that are using generative language and algorithm models to make documentation and patient plan of care systems easier. So the big, big systems, maybe not for a little bit, maybe they are using some at a small level, but there are some smaller EMRs that are already out there implementing AI. So I've been talking to someone about this, trying to set up, you know, maybe how can we implement this into our clinics. And like I said, we're not using it like right now, but with this AI system with emr, EZPT is the name of the company. They're already doing it. So.

Wow, okay. I just, I just learned a lot. I just learned a lot from that. From your response to Tristan's question. Also learned a lot just from, from Harvey's comment here. So Harvey just dropped a comment and said Microsoft and OpenAI and Epic are working on adding AI to the EMR and it'll be released in six months. Wow, Harvey, Ryan, everyone's breaking news, at least to me. But I guess, are people aware, maybe even. Let's talk on, on the patient side, Ryan, should patients know? You know, because I think there's an ethical piece to this as well. Like should we know if, if our doctor or healthcare organization is using AI or it's. I know AI has been used for decades for imaging and to help detect signs of cancer and other symptoms of other diseases. So from an ethical side, from the patients, should we know?

My opinion. So in my opinion, communication is key. So what we teach in our clinics, what I teach people that come in are learners, the people that we hire, the people that we teach, students that we take in for clinical rotations. One of my big keys is communication with patients and transparency. You know, you don't want to have that, that underlying like, hey, I'm doing something nefarious, you know, because if they ask you, yeah, absolutely, be 100 honest, be clear. Are you going to divulge like every little thing that you're doing to automate your system to every patient? I mean, imagine how long that's going to take. Right. But yeah, I think there needs to be transparency with patient care.

Yeah. So you obviously have an interest in AI in your field and you're following the news and the advancements. I know it's hard to look into the crystal ball, but I'm going to ask you to anyways. How do you see your day to day changing in the coming years in regards to AI integrating more and more into the field?

So when we're talking about AI into the healthcare field is one kind of topic and we're talking about AI into the education system is kind of another thing. So then you have to hybrid and blend those in the healthcare. Obviously I see these tools growing, expanding, improving and, and making what I say is the B word, okay, Burnout is helping reduce some of that burnout. I mean anybody in here that is in healthcare, any field really, to be honest, healthcare, education, business, anything, there's burnout rate. And I see the future of this as growing all these tools to help reduce some of that in the education side. I see, oh gosh, there's so many things on the education side that you can talk about with adaptive learning. So I was talking to Dr. Armia Abdo, he's, he's in the medical field and AI strong, strong leader in the AI field. And he was saying using AR and VR, so augmented reality and virtual reality with the backbone of AI running those systems, you know, so having adaptive learning within there. So what is adaptive learning? Right. So you think about like intelligent tutoring. So you have a student, right? So you have this student that is either excelling here and not so much over here. AI can then take an adaptive approach and say, okay, here's your weak points, let's go ahead and retrain or find a new way to teach, you know, a new approach. I mean, because it's, it's, it's a generative language, it can actually think about different models on how to teach. And then from that point it can tailor to that specific student. So I see in the healthcare having AI work into VR or augmented reality. And some people get those confused. I got it confused. And just real briefly is what Armia Abdo told me is, Dr. Abdo, I should say is augmented is meaning that you're already seeing everything that's in front of you. You put something, you know, like glasses in front of you or something, and then there's a superimposed layer of things that you can interact with versus virtual reality, where everything's virtual. And so I see the healthcare or the education program maybe utilizing that for distance learning and integrative learning and collaborative learning in the future. I know I'm talking a lot here, but something, yeah, but I think it's something really interesting because imagine having AI run the backbone and having this adaptive learning system while you're in an immersive program. So instead of looking at a 2D screen and looking at like professor so and so or whatever, you have this 3D rendering of whatever is you're learning. So I'll put it into perspective of what I do. So if I do MSK ultrasound, muscle skeletal ultrasound, and I have these glasses on and I have a 3D rendering model of something in front of me and yeah, think about that. And as I interact with that system, it can tell me kind of what's going on. Right. So this is what I envision. And then having, think about this, a multidisciplinary team, so a collaborative unit of people. So you have a nurse on there, you have ancillary staff in there, you have doctors, you have physical therapist, and you can all interact on that same case, you know, through distance learning. So I, that's kind of where I see some of that going there. And again, that was really generated from Dr. Abdo and so. And it's just more, I don't know, there's more gamification to it, I would say. Does that make sense?

Yeah, I was, it sounded like Ryan. It reminded me of, you know, a game, you know, quote unquote, that many of us played as a child. Operation. Right. But real, but for learning. Right. Like you put on the glasses. You put on the glasses. So it's, it's augmented reality, virtual reality. But you're, you're learning and there's a 3D subject and AI models are telling you if you're doing it right or wrong. But that's a, that's a realistic outcome for education in the future. You're saying something like that.

I, I think that's something that we can definitely work toward. We already have augmented and virtual reality, right? What, what's stopping us from using an AI backbone to create learning models and using gamification? So if people don't really know what that is, is using an interactive way that you can do that and it will help you learn and stay engaged. And so we know if we're engaged in something, more likely we're probably going to learn more.

Yeah. Okay. I have so many follow up questions because I want to know more, but we have, we have a ton of comments and I want to get to them as quickly as we can. So Jonathan with a great question here. So asking Ryan, what do you think or believe will be the impact of the clinician patient relationship as AI becomes more deeply integrated into the healthcare systems? Will it enhance communication and trust? Or could it create a more impersonal, impersonal, transactional dynamic? And how can we mitigate the latter scenario? What a great question. Hold on here, I'll actually put that back on the screen. So you can just fully.

Yes, I can test it.

Yeah, that's. This, this, this sounds like the last, you know, question of a test to see if you can, you know, become a doctor.

Right. Okay, well, let's, oh gosh, let's see if I can pass. Well, so, okay, do. How do I think it's going to impact clinician patient? I think it comes down to transparency, right. I think it comes down to how you communicate it, how you're educated on it. The more you learn about the integrative systems in AI, the more that you can explain it. You know, it's the fear of the unknown. Right. And so if you can explain that to the patients, that hopefully you're building trust because that's, you know, a patient's not going to follow you into whatever treatment plans or algorithms that you have if they don't trust you. Right. They're not going to blindly say, well, his title says, you know, I bet I should probably do. No, you have to build that trust. And I think with AI, as long as we're open about it and we can discuss it with our patients, I truly believe that it will help with that communication. I think it'll help, you know, develop bonds with, with the patients. Do I think that there's going to be impersonal transactional dynamics to it? Yeah, absolutely. Anything that is new is going to have gaps, right? Everything that's going to be new is going to have gaps. And I think the more that we learn and we educate, educate ourselves and be transparent about it is the more we can bridge those gaps.

Yeah, great, that's. That's a great point. And I think what you said there is so true. Like transparency and communication in the age of AI is so important. Especially, you know, like what Jonathan brings up when, when these doctor patient relationships historically have been so personal. And then when you interject AI in there, you need to, I think, communicate it so, so both sides are aware. Ryan, I hope, I hope we're still good. I know you have five clinics to run, but we have a couple more questions if, if, if you have a minute.

I do. I have plenty of time. I just wore this to make me look cool. No, I am going to work after this, but no, I have time.

All right, let's do it. So, real quick here. So we have another great question. So what app currently is more popular, or maybe most popular in the AI field for clinicians during daily practice? This is great. I have no clue. Are clinicians using anything? If so what?

Well, as I stated in the beginning, I'm. I'm not using anything within the clinic myself. So what's popular in the clinic? I would imagine people are using things, you know, like the GPT, Bing's Bards, you know, to kind of understand what's going on. But like I said, there is a integrative AI EMR platform that I, I hope to see things like that building out, which helps cut down on time, which again, we talked about a little bit and helps with tedious tasks. So to me, I think some of the EMR, or at least some of the applications in the documentation is probably the most popular or going to be the most popular to begin with.

Yeah, um, that makes sense. So, Harvey, with another, you know, kind of just comment here, you know, physicians being able to spend time with patients without looking away to type, that's. That's big, right? Like just being able. Because sometimes it's almost like in the clinical setting, you're. You're talking to the doctors back. Right. So that's something I didn't really think about. But that's a big piece, right? Yeah, exactly. This would not be a good interview. If you're listening to the podcast, Ryan turned his back. This would be a terrible interview. But that's, That's a good point that Harvey brings up, is maybe it allows people to be a little more personal.

Right. Hi, Harvey. Thank you.

Great. So. Oh, gosh, so many questions. I don't think we're going to be able to get to them. All right. Because you would be here Literally all day and then some. So I have one more here since we haven't had anything yet from, from Christopher. So Christopher's asking how might the integration of AI into the medical education influence the roles and responsibilities of medical educators and what steps should be taken to prepare for these changes. Another great question, and we'll end with that question. Ryan, what, what, what's your thoughts on kind of what Christopher said?

There's, well. Hi, Christopher. Integration into medical education, how is it going to change the responsibilities and roles immensely? Well, again, I don't think that brick and mortar schools or, you know, those kind of education systems are going, you know, to be changed dramatically. I think this is going to help augment those systems that we have in place. But I do believe that the roles are going to have to change because you're going to have to adapt to these new learning modules. Instead of a student, you know, you know, having a hard time and going to get a tutor, your education system is going to be intuitive enough to change with the student. Right. And so the, the educators themselves are going to have to be ready to, you know, move with that kind of flow. So I think the responsibility of the medical educators is to, well, educate themselves and be smart in this system. So, yeah, I think that there's going to be, you know, obviously there's going to be steps to this. Can I tell you what those steps are? Probably not in detail, but there's going to be steps to build. You know, you can't just, you know, what is it? Open the fire hose and try and drink out of it. You know, I think especially with a lot of educators, you're going to have to kind of drip feed them, you know, until we're ready.

Yeah, So I lied. I'm going to end with one more question, but from me. So here we go. So what would you say, maybe advice to your former self or just anyone out there, whether they're in the medical field or not, what advice would you give them to help them just handle with what's going on with AI? So maybe it's a lesson that you've learned or just kind of your kind of approach. But what's maybe one thing you can share with people as we're all starting to handle all of this new AI technology come at us pretty quickly, all at once. What's your, what's your one kind of, you know, takeaway or, or lesson that can really help people?

I would say one of my biggest lessons would come from my biggest mentor, my father, is don't go into this apprehensive, don't go into this full bore, don't be pessimistic about it. What my father used to tell me about a lot of things like this was be a guarded optimist. And what he meant was be, be open about it. You know, have good expectations about things. But always remember that there, there's this part of it that you should always be aware that anything can happen and be careful. Right. And so I think I posted this the other day. You know, this is a new shiny toy. And I said, you know, sometimes shiny toys have sharp edges. So just be aware that you have to be safe with new technology. So if somebody's up and to learn all this, say, hey, you know what, be hopeful, be open minded. But, you know, don't take it for granted.

Wow. Shiny toys have sharp edges. Such great advice. Such great advice, right? Because, yeah, as we're getting all these new shiny toys on almost a daily basis, I think that's so important to keep in mind because, yeah, we want to play with them. We want to, you know, make something, you know, beautiful or creative or efficient with all these toys. But yeah, they have sharp edges sometimes. So. Thank you. Thank you everyone. So many comments. Like I said, we're not going to be able to get into them all, but I'm at least going to be jumping back into the comments later today if you are watching this on the live stream. But if you're listening on the podcast, you know, check us out as well. You know, at least I'm going to be in there, you know, continuing to keep this conversation going. I'm sure Ryan will drop by. He's super active on LinkedIn, so make sure that you check him out and give him a follow as well. So, Ryan, thank you so much for joining us and for giving us your experience and expertise in this subject.

Thank you so much. So much for this. I want to give one shout out really quick.

Absolutely.

Yes. Connor grinning out there. He's the dean of the NYU Business School. He's the one who got me all into this. His post on LinkedIn was really, just really got me immersed in this. So I just wanted to say thanks to him on that and thanks for everybody else listening here. Thanks for the awesome questions and I appreciate your time and effort.

All right, well, yeah, I'll have to check that post out, by the way. So thank you everyone for tuning in, bringing these great questions for Ryan. And as a reminder, we do this every Single Day Live, 7:30am Central Standard Time. Also, please go to your everydayai.com sign up for the newsletter. Check out other podcasts. We've had about 20, so we try to bring a different expert in every day to talk about how AI is affecting all of our everyday lives. So thank you for tuning in and we hope to see you tomorrow and every day on Everyday AI. Thank you. And that's a wrap for today's edition of Everyday AI. Thanks for joining us. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and leave us a rating. It helps keep us going for a little more AI magic. Visit your everydayai.com and sign up to our daily newsletter so you don't get left behind. Go break some barriers and we'll see you next time.