EP 229: Exploring the Positive Impact of Neurodiversity and AI

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I've literally gotten dozens of messages from people talking about how much ChatGPT is helping them and I was kind of surprised. A lot of people said, hey, I am neurodivergent and something as simple as ChatGPT has completely changed the way that I work and has changed my relationship with coworkers. So it's something that I'm excited to explore a little bit more today on Everyday AI. So welcome. If you're new here, thanks for joining. My name is Jordan Wilson and I am the host of Everyday AI. We're a daily live stream podcast and free daily newsletter help helping everyday people like you and me not just learn generative AI, but how we can all actually leverage it to grow our companies and to grow our careers. So I'm extremely excited for today's episode. But as a reminder, if you are joining us, go to your everydayai.com and sign up for the free daily newsletter. Well, here's why.

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Hey, thank you. Great to be here, Jordan.

All right, so hey, could you just tell everyone a little bit about the work that you do because I know you hold a lot of roles, you know, you speak, speak all over the world really on this topic. So yeah, could you just give everyone a little bit of a background about yourself?

Absolutely. So I, yeah, I've been working in the field for over 20 years. A lot has changed since then. So it's been kind of, it's been really fascinating and I've, I've worked in a number of different roles. I've helped start some social impact funds investing in neurodiversity. I did my PhD in this space at Oxford University when I was studying as a Rhodes scholar, you know, so, and I, and I've most recently completed my first book called the Neur Diversity Edge.

So I mean, tell us, tell us a little bit about, you know, your experience. So you said you've been in the field for, you know, more than, more than two decades. You know, even for me personally, I feel like I've started to hear a lot more about neurodiversity in the past year or two. Am I imagining that or has it just become a bigger topic of conversation now recently?

No, it's, yeah, for sure. I think we're finally at this point where it's becoming more of a mainstream conversation which was really not happening before and there's a lot of reasons for that. But I think there's been a lot more public awareness. There's a lot more people that are being diagnosed, even like late diagnosis, you know, diagnoses. And it's just, I think the field has evolved a lot over time and there's been just more awareness of just how large of a population the neurodivergent group is. I mean we're looking at, you know, at minimum 15 to 20% of the global population. Wow.

And could you just help us better understand, you know, what does it even mean to be neurodivergent?

Sure, absolutely. So, so there, so the neurodiversity term was coined in the late 1990s by an Australian sociologist named Judy Singer. And you know, obviously autism, dyslexia, adhd, dyspraxia, a lot, a lot of these typologies have existed, you know, for a long time. Much, you know, for far longer than, than that. But yeah, the, in the, you know, Starting the late 1990s, there started to be more of this, you know, these conversations around looking at neurodiversity and you know, people that autistic people, adhders, dyslexia from a more strength based perspective. But the, the really important idea and where things started when the coin, the term was coined was just to thinking about neurodiversity as being part of the natural spectrum of what it means to be human rather than just this pure medical deficit model where there's, you know, we're separating humanity into people that are normal and people that are deficient, that it's, it's actually a lot more complex and nuanced than that and that there's this rich diversity of ways of thinking and ways of perceiving the world that are, should be, should be valued and that it's. That fits within the normal spectrum of what it means to be human.

So, so maybe even before we jump into AI and how AI can have a positive impact, can you just, you know, for those of us that, you know, don't fully understand, could you just help us, you know, walk us through maybe, you know, the average, you know, person working. Right. Maybe even here in the U.S. what are some, you know, common, you know, challenges that people, you know, with neurodiversities can face? I know it's different depending on, you know, if it's ADHD versus autism, et cetera. But, you know, in general, what are some of those common threads that neurodivergent people face in today's workplace?

Sure, absolutely. So, so start out with the sort of deeper problem that I see, and then I'll talk a little bit about some specifics of things that I think could be done. So one of the deeper issues I found in my experience is just. And. And this sort of goes for everyone, all of us neurodiversion people and neurotypical like. But there's. We're just. The way our brains are, are wired. We are prone to a lot, taking a lot of sort of like mental shortcuts, right? These like, cognitive biases. And sometimes, actually pretty often, if we're not, you know, careful to be, to try to be more aware of them, they do influence our judgments. And so in my book, I talk a lot, the neuro talk a lot about some of the different types of cognitive biases that could get in the way of genuine inclusion. One of them is the confirmation bias. And I bring this up because it's well known the neurodivergent community is. There's a huge, huge disproportionality in terms of the potential to contribute and the economic opportunities that are actually available. And the unemployment rate is still, you know, unacceptably high. There's, you know, 30 to 40% neurodivergent people across all the typologies that are unemployed or underemployed. If you look at the autistic population particular, you know, there's some stats that even as high as 85% and that includes college graduates. Okay. So there's. There's a lot of challenges, I think, in just our biases too, about how to do interviews and how to evaluate talent. And, you know, it's often the case that there's just a sort of standard script of how to do interviews, how we're, you know, you know, evaluating, you know, you people that are applying for jobs. And often it's the case that some of those scripts really aren't related to what's required for that job. And that could naturally disadvantage some neurodivergent people. And then also I think it's important if someone discloses and says they're neurodivergent, whether it's adhd, dyslexia, autism, it's really important to remind yourself that everything's case by case, I think. So again, going back to the cognitive biases, we're wired in a way where there's these mental shortcuts. So I think people like, they'll hear autism and then they immediately assume like, okay, there's no way this person is going to be a good, you know, good at certain types of jobs or. But yet I've known actually some pretty amazing autistic leaders that have even been in marketing and like all sorts, all sorts of jobs that you wouldn't think, you know, at first glance would make sense. Right. And so I think just the deeper issue is, is for all of us to just become aware of the cognitive biases, you know, the unconscious cognitive biases. We all come, that all come into play, you know, like into our communication and assessment of candidates and then to be actively, you know, integrating into our talent assessment process, processes and systems, different strategies and ways so that there's not. So these biases are not preventing the kind of talent that you really want to be recruiting at your company. And that could be things such as, you know, being just being more flexible overall, but like offering non traditional interview processes where there's a lot of thoughtfulness going into the design of that process and allowing, you know, people to submit evidence of what they can do, you know, so it's not so subjective. Right. A lot of interview processes tend to be really about, you know, your subjective impression of a person. In fact, I talked to, I had an interview the other day and they said, yeah, you know, I know no CEO who said, yeah, he mostly hires, you know, his main criteria is if he can hang with the person. Well, you know, that's not probably the best criteria to hire someone if you actually want your business to excel. Especially in the paradigm that we're looking at in the future where things are going to be changing really fast.

Yeah, and speaking of changing really fast, this is kind of what I started the show with is I've, you know, personally gotten dozens of messages from neurodivergent people saying that AI has changed the way they work. It's, you know, people are saying it's helping them communicate faster, helping them, you know, be more productive. Helping them, you know, learn, you know, in, in a more personalized way. Maureen, what's, what's been your response so far? I know you're very tapped into the neurodivergent community. What's been your response so far? What would you say people, you know, with different, you know, neurodivergencies are saying about generative AI and the impact it's had?

Yeah, sure. So, and the, you know, I've been in general sort of more focused on some of the limitations of AI and understanding types of cognition and modes of thought that actually complement AI really well, like non linear thinking, lateral thinking, and we could talk about that later. But I have also heard from a lot of neurodivergent people I know about the kinds, you know, the ways in which it has been improving their productivity and, and helping. And one example is, and I haven't tested this out myself, but I, I know, I know someone who told me that, you know, it's that he's had in the past, he's kind of had anxiety about like just responding to communication with emails, you know, and making sure there's, if they're really polite or. And so, and so, and so this generative AI, I guess, has helped him like come up with, you know, different types of, of, you know, he'll, he'll, he'll know his bullet points, right, in terms of like what he wants to communicate. But it just is, it helps speed up the process and reduce anxiety to have these sort of templates, right, to make sure that he's getting back to people really quickly, that you know, that communication is seamless and faster than what it would normally be. And then I've also, I know people that have been, you know, using it just for, you know, research purposes. And I've heard from a number of neurodivergent people that have some challenges like, in terms of like organization especially like organizing information even. I have a few friends that have said, you know, that, that sometimes struggle to like, just get all the documents they need in time for like filing their taxes, for instance, and are kind of excited about, you know, the potential of generative AI where like the stuffs that they struggle with will actually be really easy because then they could just, you know, ask this, the system to kind of pull up different documents from their emails, you know, and gather all that information at Some point soon. And, and then, you know, that those, those type of tasks which maybe are difficult for people to have some like what we call executive functioning challenges are, you know, it frees up a lot of time then for creativity, for innovation, for the types of things that a lot of neurodivergent people I know, especially entrepreneurs, are exceptional at.

Yeah, and I, and I do want to focus on that side as well. But, you know, first, you know, you, you mentioned a couple of things there that I think are important. You know, you mentioned things as simple as, you know, not spending as much time, you know, replying to an email, you know, decreasing anxiety around, like, oh, you know, is, is this maybe going to come off a certain way? Do you think that there's kind of this maybe outlook or this idea that right now generative AI and even something as simple as using ChatGPT can almost serve as, you know, an assistant or a sounding board for someone with neurodiversity to either help them learn something faster or in a different way, communicate in a different way with their peers. Do you think that's kind of, you know, one of the biggest positive impacts that generative AI can have at least, you know, topically?

Yeah, yeah, possibly. I think there's that potential. You know, there is something called the double empathy problem, which we won't have time to get into today. And I, and I talk about this in my book. But for, for like, you know, I think that there's a lot we can do to share, you know, sort of close the gaps on some shared experiences and communication and empathy gaps between different neurotypes. And I think ChatGPT could potentially be a really great resource for that. And then I think not just, you know, in beyond neurodivergent people, like again, just freeing up some productivity. Right. Filling up time where we could all be focused on solving some deeper problems. Right. We have so many problems in the world and I think there's a lot of potential for neurodivergent people to, and neurotypical people to complement each other in terms of their strengths and challenges and work alongside machines and generative AI in a way where we really could be making a positive difference.

Yeah, And I think that's, you know, even looking at the future of work is probably important because the, the general school of thought is, you know, generative AI systems are going to be taking over, you know, some sort of that knowledge work or cognitive work that we talk about. So, you know, what should neurodivergent people be following when it comes to future implementations of AI in the workplace. If we're hearing that, hey, it's going to take a lot of, you know, potentially take a lot or help automate a lot of this cognitive work. So what does that mean for, you know, neurodivergent people?

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Yeah, well, obviously, you know, means a lot for everyone, right? Not just neurodivergent people. It's going to change how, you know, I mean, how we, how all of you know, how all of humanity is working. This is, you know, the first time in history where this level of cognitive work, as you mentioned, is being could, is going to be taken over by machines. And so that will just be this huge, huge, huge adjustment. And I think, I think we're all going to adapt to this new world and it's, you know, going to increasingly accelerate. Having said that, I think that, you know, a lot of the skill sets that you know, and, and it's important not to generalize, right, because the neurodiversity community and neurodivergence in general is like, is an extremely broad spectrum of different strengths and weaknesses that we all have. But I think that there are, it is, you know, I think that it's an exciting time also because there's certain types of skill sets, I think that historically have been undervalued, at least in the economy. You know, like we've had a lot of innovators that happen to still make their mark, you know, in, in the world. But you know, if you look at Just, just in terms of, just more numbers like the unemployment rates. You know, right now we're well under 4% in the, in the, in terms of average unemployment in the United States. And if you look at the neurodivergent community, you know, if it's across all typologies, 30 to 40%, yet there are a lot of unique talents and skill sets. And again, you know, I'm not going to generalize across everyone, but the types, there's types of skill sets that maybe have been undervalued in the past that I think are going to increasingly be, be important as, you know, in the future. Right. And so, you know, people that can connect dots between different fields and you know, naturally think in a way where there's these intuitive leaps of creative insight. And it's not, there's not a real obvious way in which they're solving problems that are going beyond sort of traditional linear thinking. But there's nonlinear approaches to problem solving, a lot of lateral thinking, a lot of reverse engineering associative thinking. A lot of these skill sets, you know, I think are increasingly become more important. And they, there, there is documented overlap with neurodivergence.

So it, you know, just so I make sure I'm understanding this correctly, so you're kind of saying that there's maybe these undervalued or, you know, unique skill sets that neurodivergent people. People have and can bring to the table that maybe AI can help leverage these skill sets where before maybe some of these, you know, unique skill sets were being underutilized. Is that, is that kind of what you're saying and what AI could maybe help with?

Yeah, and, and you know, I think, I think it's obviously, you know, every human being is valuable and we, I think there's important to find a place for everyone in our economy. But just from a cognitive science test perspective, like, I think a lot of even like interdisciplinary thinking or systems thinking, like we had become in the past such a specialist, like there's been such a focus on specialization and that sometimes, you know, we've undervalued the people that are really thinking outside of those boundaries. Right. And, and I think that, you know, for some neurodivergent people that's, that naturally fall into that type of thinking style, it's going to be much harder to automate those modes of thinking. Right. And you know, maybe far, far in the future that that'll, you know, be, be easier. But I do think we're entering this period of time where I Think we're all going to be really surprised and have already been surprised at what even ChatGPT can do, right, in terms of. But there's still sort of mashups of existing human expressions. And so what I think is going to increasingly be more valuable is these types of skill sets that fall outside of those maps or those boundaries.

And, you know, I'd love for. Whether our audience tuning in live or those of you on the podcast, you know, I'd love to hear from you, like, what are ways that you think AI is already or could maybe in the future, you know, better. Better leverage, you know, your unique skill sets. You know, we'd love to feature some of those in the newsletter today, Maureen. But so, so your new book, the Neurodiversity Edge, I'd love to hear. You know, I know it tackles, you know, neurodiversity from all different angles, but, you know, specifically, you know, what did you find or what were some of your takeaways? Just as it comes to neurodiversity and AI, what are. Or, you know, neurodiversity and future technologies. What, what, what can you tell us a little bit about some of your findings there?

Yeah, so I, There's a chapter where I go into, you know, strengths that neurodiversion people bring to the table. But all. But also the final chapter is called Neurodiversity in the Age of Transformation. And I think that chapter in particular will be interesting to leaders who are looking to future proof their organization. And, you know, it talks in more detail. I've got, actually, I've got talk about a story of, of a mentor I had when I was at Oxford, Knox for Don, who was dyslexic, that, you know, really, you know, put me through some interesting thought experience for my benefit. And, you know, looking at just how accelerated change happens, you know, in terms of like, just, we're entering this period now where things are going to move a lot faster and accelerate a lot faster in terms of computational power than we've maybe ever seen ever, right, in history. And how, you know, cognitive diversity, you know, is important, right? It's hugely important. Um, it's. We're entering this very uncertain period and there, there is going to be a lot of change. And, you know, AI systems, what they do really, really well is they're going to be able to, you know, crunch data and, and take over a lot of linear thinking tasks, you know, far, much faster, much better than most humans. But then we need to focus on whether we're neurodivergent or neurotypical, we need to focus on what, what we're really good at as human beings. And I think that it does. You know, my research suggests that there is this special place that perhaps has been underappreciated for human neurodivergence in particular, especially with regards to, you know, some of the cognitive approaches and atypical problem solving approaches, and also just coming and perceiving at problems from a very different lens than neurotypical typical people are, which in itself is incredibly valuable, you know, just even as a hedge against groupthink, as you want people, whether it's, you know, in the boardroom or in your C suite or throughout your organization, you want people who are going to be able to detect some blind spots that others may not.

I think that's such an important, you know, aspect right there. You know, detecting blind spots that others can. It's hugely, hugely important. So, I mean, Maureen, we've, we've covered a lot in today's episode, you know, from, you know, going into what neurodivergence means and, you know, some of the special or untapped, you know, skill sets that AI can actually, you know, help better leverage or better bring to light. But, you know, as we wrap up, what is the one takeaway that you hope people can, can kind of gather from today's conversation specifically on the positive impact of AI and neurodiversity?

Yeah, I mean, I would say that there's this concept called complementary cognition. And I think that organizations of all kinds will be most competitive if they are not just preparing to, for how their organizations might change in terms of, like, how do we integrate AI, how do we integrate, you know, these emerging technologies. But thinking about it from a human resources perspective, and there's a concept I call neurodiversification over cultural fit and sort of taking that seriously and understanding in the context of the age of AI and the paradigm we're entering now, how it's more important than ever that we really take the time as leaders to understand neurodiversity, understand cognitive diversity, understand how to leverage our human resources in a way where we're complementing each other as humans and also working alongside AI to be the most productive and innovative that we can.

Thank you so much. I think this conversation is one of those that is going to be extremely helpful for all of us, just creating more inclusive and better understanding workplaces, especially as our workplaces are changing so much, you know, with AI. So, Dr. Marine Dunn, thank you so much for joining the everyday AI show. We really appreciate your time and your insights.

Okay, thank you, Jordan. I appreciate it. I enjoyed it.

And hey, as a reminder, everyone, there's going to be a lot more. As always, we're going to be breaking down today's conversation in the newsletter. We'll make sure to drop more information about Maureen's new book, as well as additional resources and insights that maybe we didn't even get time to cover today. So make sure if you haven't already, please go to your everydayai.com, sign up for that free daily newsletter and we'll see you back tomorrow and every day for more Everyday AI. Thanks y'.

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