Audio Podcasts vs. Video Podcasts! Who Wins?

If you take anything away from this, just like take away, like start with a controversial and or bold claim and then share exactly how you're going to deliver that you know, in the video and like the first 10, 15 seconds. It doesn't need to. You don't need to spend three weeks on a video.

Podcast has changed dramatically over the last five years, but especially in the last, I would say six months with YouTube. So I brought in my friend and podcast growth expert Louis Diaz, who's The founder of top10podcast.com. This guy works with some of the biggest health and finance podcasts and also.

Him and I have this mastermind where monthly we talk about the latest and.

Greatest of what's working for growth in terms of podcasting, but also video and other types of content.

I'm just going to say if you.

Are leveraging podcast as a medium and video or even other types of content, you're going to want to listen to.

This episode because you are going to.

Get the framework of what's working best right now organically and with paid traffic. Leveraging podcasts to grow everything you're doing.

With the intention that this is going.

To get more of your target audience.

So you can lead them down the path to your business, help it grow your marketing and your brand and all that.

So enjoy this episode with Louis.

You're going to get a lot, you're.

Going to get some templates as well. So make sure you follow the links and check out in the description, show.

Notes of this episode to grab everything that we mentioned. All right, enjoy.

Hey, do you have more to do's, less time and an infinite number of.

Tools to keep track of.

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All right, Louis, we're back.

It's been round two.

I think it was what we were looking at it maybe four years ago. Three. Four years ago. Yeah, crazy. Time flies, bro.

It does, it does. It feels like a lifetime ago almost, because the way the landscape has changed too, man. It's like I wish I could go back and, you know, slap the other Lewis on the head and say, do this, not that, anything like.

And for all y', all, we're talking about podcasting. We're talking about, you know, the ways we approach media and stuff. But like, what comes to mind when. If you look at previous Lewis, because I do this all the time with myself, it's like, how do I mentor my previous self? Because like usually your best customer, your best, you know, audience around you. Yeah. Like, what would you tell yourself? Maybe some top things.

I think I would just start investing more in video creation and just really studying YouTube, realizing that's the future. Now you realize it's the future. It's a little too late now, but yeah, doubling down. If you, if I went back 20, 21, 2020, I doubled down on like YouTube, probably spend like three to five dollars a day on just ads, on just like promoting a video and looking at like, probably spending more time on like how to tutorials. Because if you had like a really hot tutorial back then or even further back, right. Like how to launch a podcast in my scenario or how to grow a podcast and like a make it like a 45 minute hour long training. I think if I did, if I could go back and like, If I did three videos that year, let's just say 20, 21, and they were just like, I spent a thousand dollars on the production on each of them that cost me a total of $3,000. And they were good videos. Those videos probably would have did great, you know what I mean? And they would have been, it had been like a really worthwhile investment. So it's like, I try to think of it now like, you know, If I did six videos for the rest of 2024 and one of them popped off, just one, and I spent maybe six grand or five grand on total editing these videos and producing them. You just need one. Like, I look at Sean Cannell and like Think Media, they have videos that make money for them, like from years ago, but they're still driving traffic. And all the clients. This is funny. This is a funny tip too. Like, or just a tidbit. I learned the clients that we've worked with, it's like now I look at their channels, we do like audits every other week or every. Every two weeks or every week. And the videos that they produce, they were just like really good SEO driven videos. They're getting most of their traffic from search or suggested videos and they're all from like four or five years ago. So it's like really? Yeah, it's like, it's hard. They have a couple of ones that popped off nowadays too. If we get things, we get things right we got one client right now. It's like she just. She's doing great because we kind of cracked the code on what her audience really likes and what the algorithm is responding to. But, man, like, I just think less is more nowadays and like, spending money on good content versus. Versus volume.

I think you're right, man. And that's where, you know, like, I was. I was hinting at. Oh, I'm not hinting. I was telling you. And it might. We might have already restarted at this point when this episode goes live. But we. We took a proactive pause to. On our second episode that we released this week, you know, we do 2A. So we have like this Friday episode. We're like, what if we paused and made that the YouTube focused content.

Yeah.

Like the interview podcasts or episodes I do are more audio focused because we were driven primarily by an audio. As an audio platform before YouTube, you know, made kind of. I mean, let's be honest. It was around the whole time we just weren't thinking of you.

We just. Yeah, we were just like, oh, it sounds like a lot of money. It seems like a lot of work. People already crushing it over there.

Yeah.

Yeah. It was like, oh, you're a creator, you're a YouTuber, you're not a podcaster. But it's like the lines are blurred. So, like, I would tell myself that too. And, you know, Matt and I, back in the day, when we last interviewed, he was two of us. We were trying to crack that code. And it's tough with an interview, you know, type show. Yeah. So that's why, like, we're. We're proactively going like, okay. And this is with Sean Campbell's advice as well. Just at the time of this recording here, it was a week ago, I chatted with him and he was like, yeah, you. When you put intention into a video and actually make it quality and focus on the engagement throughout, you know, you're very specific with what you're putting in the video. With that last edit, you're reflecting on what you're doing. You know, he was saying there's still a quantity approach, but at the same time it's with intention. And I think he was saying it's like the first 50 videos you do probably going to suck, but at the same time, you're putting that muscle out there. And then to your point, like, well, they could be evergreen, so they could still pop off, you know, a couple years from now and be your best drivers.

Yeah. And that's just so weird. Like, I see so many people in like the health space or the finance space and their best videos from like five, six years ago and they're still getting like the last 28 days. If you like tighten up the analytics to like look at your last 28 day analytics, there's still sometimes the top one, two or three, you know, drivers of traffic. And it's like, my goodness, this video is from like five years ago. And it's like, I don't see any podcast doing that or I don't have any podcast episodes that do that anymore.

Yeah, like not the audio driven stuff that won't do it, but SEO. Like there's a couple. The only way I know is because the affiliate promotions, they'll still actually pay out commissions from new sales from, well, SEO'd show notes pages. Right. That's something, you know, done that for, for a good six, I mean, shoot, ever since the beginning, almost eight years now for this podcast. So yeah, it's like, that's why I've always touted the, the merits of like, hey, have something written that is well SEO'd, so at least Google can point people your way.

Do you still think that's like for a new show, do you still think that's like worth doing like having like a pod pages if they don't have. Let's just say they have like a website that's more like a services website. It's like there's nothing really on there. Like, do you think it's worth the value of putting up like a, like a, like a podcast focused website and then you know, doing the, obviously the show notes really well.

I would tie it to your main domain like if you have it. Because I mean, we're both kind of similar where we work with people who have a business behind their show and you know, they use their show as their marketing, their branding, the cultivating the right audience, all that stuff.

Yep.

So I would definitely put it on the same domain so you have a place where that content to live. Maybe it's even like a blog category of your main website, but it's just called podcasts.

Got it.

Or you mentioned pod pages or pod page. Like I've never personally used it, but I know you can put a custom domain to it and I don't know the intricacies, but like this is where the SEO you just got to look into. Like does that pass over, you know, if you publish over there? Yeah, because that's the. I've had what, Gert Malik, who did some episodes with an SEO expert. If people Want to are curious, go to gert malik on hustleandfluechart.com just search for his name, G E R T and he goes down the rabbit hole when it comes to SEO and kind of some of the best practices. And yeah, it's, I think it's still Matt for a new show. The reason I'd suggest is because there's tools like Cast Magic or Descript that you might already be using that are like 20, 30 bucks a month and it's like, yeah, it'll, it'll create that content for you. Might as well publish it. You know, Whereas back in the day we were spending like a good 150 bucks per episode just to write that and make it all done up and published. And yeah, yeah, dude, times have changed and this is where it's like videos even easier too, right? True, true.

Yeah, we've got a few clients now that has spend. They, their, their blogs do hundreds of thousands of views per month, like unique views and they spend, they're the few people that I see spending the money on. It's because they have, they have affiliate links in there and they have, you know, making money through those sites, those pages where they're interlinking stuff, they're hyperlinking different episodes or different blogs they've done inside of the copy that we've written for them. And it's like most people, I don't think that's really the right move if you're a services business. I think if you're like a product focused info expert and you make a lot of money through affiliate links, then that's probably a good way to do it. Like probably spend the money doing that or yeah, they invest the time and energy in doing that. So yeah, I think that's definitely one reason. But for most people, I would say coaches, consultants, course creators, service providers, like YouTube, podcast and then having just a really, really clean, value driven opt in, whether it's a cheat sheet.

It'S some kind of calculator or something that's actually really good, not just something you saw that used to work five years ago, I think is really the main pieces I would, I would focus on. If you don't have those already.

That's the thing. It's like if you're doing this, just think of what's your end result. That's how I'm always thinking of in general, it's like, okay, why would you have a podcast of your own? And also why would you guest on other shows? Because that's, you know, having A call to action or having some intention rather than just showing up to. To blabber, which is. Which is all good. But at the same time. Yeah, use that as an opportunity to self select the audience you want.

Yeah. And then on intentionality, that's a great point you brought up there. So on YouTube, I think everything's about intentionality. Like the idea, you pick, how you structure the video, the titles, the thumbnails. And I thought the most valuable thing for this episode I could do for. For you and the audience, Joe, is like, go through just like a case I'm doing. I'm calling it an episode brief. But it's basically like, before I even hit record, like, I'm pulling all of these resources together and just like structuring them. So I know the title, the thumbnail, the keywords, the common beliefs. I'm gonna use the scripting all the top performing videos in that section that have like. Of like. Like similar videos that have performed really well from big creators, all of that. And it's actually helped me a lot, and I think mostly it's helped me in this area. It's. It's how you. The first, like 20 seconds, like what you actually say that gets the audience.

To stay, like the hook right at the beginning.

Exactly. The hook. Yeah. And just after what I did was. And I'll show it to you a second, I actually, like, looked at, like, probably like five or six, like the best performing videos in the space. And I actually, word for word, just wrote down what they were saying, like, typed it out, like, listen to it, stop, hit pause, type it out just so you can kind of understand and see it. And it's like, you know, a cult copywriting trick was like, forget who said this, but it was a really good, famous copywriter. He was like, you know, if you want to learn how to write copy, just copy sales pages, write them down word for word. And I used to do that in Starbucks, like 2016. That's how I learned copy. And it works for hooks too, I think.

I think the hooks are the biggest things. You know, Matt Wolf, you know, he was on the show and he broke down kind of how he's been going on on YouTub. The three things he talks about is thumbnails, title, and hook. And the hook's the thing you can't change once the video gets published. You know, you change the other two. So, yeah, I would say that's probably the most important thing is to, yeah, analyze what's working now and. And make it your own.

No, it Just it makes it easier to think like a, think like a good hook writer. If you actually just copy down the really good ones. Like take five or six videos and just write them down or type them out and your brain starts to see the patterns and then you see it on the screen instead of hearing it, you're like, oh, like, ah, I get it.

Yeah. Because so this episode brief, I'm really curious because it sounds like this is like what the brainstorming part before you ever create anything. Like even the whole concept of the video I'm imagining.

Yeah. Like this has taken me three weeks to do. I haven't worked on it every day for like three hours. But like every. Probably like you know, four hours, five hours a week, every week without even. This is like, you know, just before even pressing record. Yeah.

Before you get into that, I. I just want to. Because it's been what, 4ish years or something since. Since had yawn. And some people might know who you are, but just very briefly tell people what your company is, like what who you're serving right now and kind of like the big value prop that you give them.

Yeah.

And then so we're kind of laying the stage for exactly what the strategy can help help out with.

That's a good point. Good point. So I'm so company's name. We're called Top 10 Podcasts. We now focus mainly on video podcasts for health and finance. Health and finance experts, really that's kind of main focus and finance is kind of a looser term where it's like business gurus or experts as well as like real estate experts. So that kind of gets lumped into the finance category. But mainly we help those people go from existing podcasts, whether they have a show, we'll help them grow it on both YouTube and the audio side and manage the production. Or if it's new, we'll help them with the concept and kind of create all those channels. And it's kind of a full end to end thing. So they just need to record it and then that's it. And yeah, the thing I think we've been talking about more so Joe is like nerding out on just how to grow these things and through different strategies just are actually working now because a lot's changed.

Oh yeah, things have changed all the time. Well, sweet. Well, I'm sure we'll get into some more of the strategies or maybe some best practices, you know, of like growth. But I'm definitely curious about this whole episode brief this process because I feel like that's like a nice foundational thing that we can all at least put in our brains, you know, and then implement however that works best.

Yeah, and I'll actually send you this example of one when I'm done too. So you guys can put it in the show notes or however we want it.

You can share your screen if that's easier for you as well. Get some visuals going.

This is, this is a whole bunch of ideas, but this is just kind of everything inside of these boxes of what we're talking about. So I'll kind of walk through it here. The first thing I need to know if I'm planning a video, like, what's the main idea of the video? Like, what should they get out of it once they're done. And I kind of, because I wasn't really sure where I wanted to take this video, I gave myself like three options of how I wanted to produce this. It's a little bit more, a little bit tighter now. I need to clean it up. That's one, that's one key part. The second is the keywords. So one of the things I've realized, like a lot of the people we work with, the reason why their videos are still ranking and still getting views, because they have the right keywords in there and it's got such good watch time that YouTube knows that like this video actually provides value when people click on it. So they keep it up there. So I was looking at, I just typed in like different. This video in particular is about podcast intros and how to make a great hook. So I was just typing in different ideas of like what would people type in if I'm my ideal avatar, what are they going to type in to find out how to write or record a great podcast hook. So I just had a couple different ideas based on what YouTube gave me for these. Because what we're going to do with this is we're going to work this into the title, we're going to work this into the chapter marks, we're going to work this into the description. I'm also going to try and say this a bunch of times because YouTube's looking at what, what you're saying as well. So this is the first two pieces, main idea and keywords that like we found on Google and stopped me at any time. Joe, if there's any questions you want to dive in, something else we'll do. I suppose I say combos, but next is like my favorite part which is like episode and title thumbnail combos. So just like Searching those keywords. These are all like the different videos that came up that were in my niche talking about how to write a good hook or how to write a good intro. And these are kind of like podcast focused or non podcast focused ones. These are more like just talking about YouTube videos. So I did a couple different variations, but this gave me an idea of like and also gives my team an idea of like, what kind of intro. What kind of thumbnail should this be? Like, what should the copy look like on the video? I really like this visual here. I don't know if you can see it, but I'll zoom in.

Can't quite make it. Oh, okay. So it's like a whole timeline edit.

It looks. Yeah. And I think she does really good with this. It names April Aprilan Alter. She does really well with these. And she's just, she's had like two videos that have literally probably driven like the lion. The main. Most of her 49,000 subscribers. So it's, it's just interesting stuff, right? Like, you know what works and what doesn't. Like, you got Riverside FM here, which we're using. They had a video that had 1.8 thousand view when it gave use. So all these things I give to my editors. So I'm like, hey guys, like, look at these and like give me some like three or four different thumbnail looks and then we can switch them out.

And the beautiful thing I'll pause here is thumbnails. What you have the ab tester now that YouTube rolled out. I think you'd split test what, three thumbnails you can. So yeah, load, load multiple thumbnails from day one.

Exactly. Yeah. So just looking at these, you can kind of see this is a little small to see, but we can tell what views, what's getting used, what's not and just gives us some different ideas. So I love having that there for just for like idea sake. Next is like title idea. So as you're creating this, like, you're building this, all this gathering all this data, you're going to naturally come up with different titles for your own episode. So I just threw them all into this box and just gave me some ideas. Next, thumbnail copy. I think this is actually sometimes more important than the actual title because people read it more.

It's like, it's like Netflix, right? Like, you just see like this big image and you're, you're looking at images for the most part.

Right, right. So one thing I learned about thumbnail copy is like less is more. Like you don't want a lot of copy on your thumbnails. And the rule of three comes into play where it's like there needs to be three key like objects, right? Like if you look at a lot of these, they have three, one, two, three or three maximum, right. So it's like one or two. This one has two, this one has 3K key like focal points. So we try to keep it to three focal points maximum. So I try to keep the copy pretty minimal. And then this is like, I don't even know if this is useful. Again, this is like my 1.0 version of this, so I'll probably take this part out. But I, I figured as you're going through all these videos, a lot of times you figure out what are the common myths that a market has. So like back in the old days of podcast we would know that an intro, we would usually have a pre recorded intro that would have like be like 20 or 30 or 40 seconds long where it's like welcome to the blah blah blah podcast. This is your number one stop and shop for blah blah blah. It's like on YouTube, you don't need that. Right?

Right.

And so it's a common myth that we think people, we still think, some people still think you need that.

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This is kind of like my opening hook after like looking at all these videos and figuring out all this other stuff. But going back to kind of like the, the part I mentioned before around other hooks. So this is all just, just copy from like listening to the channels to these videos on YouTube and then just writing down what they're saying from like.

Literally listening there and just like verbatim or at least best you can.

It's a pain in the ass. It's.

So that's how you learn, like you said.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I, I liked it because at the end, like there are some videos here that crushed it and I could see some patterns of like, their language. I could see the patterns of like, what is like, pretty much all the videos that crushed it. The number one thing they had in common was they always started with a bold or controversial claim.

All of them.

Whether it was like, I'm going to show you how to make a million views. Whether that's ethical or not, we're not going to get into that. But like they, they all. It was either controversial, like very in, in your face of like, I don't know if I agree with that or that's it flies in the face of normal, normal common knowledge or a very bold claim about what they're going to show you. I only learned that or saw that after like looking at all these videos and actually writing them down and saying like, oh, like there's a very common thread between these. And you can say tons of, tons of typos. Cause I was trying to type fast.

I love how messy it is because it's real. And if you're not looking at visuals here, definitely go to YouTube and, and Louis, like I said, you'll. You'll share this doc or a template?

Yeah, I'll share the template doc and I'll kind of leave myself in here. And then once I was done, I was like, all right, let me come up with my hook. And then, you know, I'm linking videos Here just for research and also like my editor is probably going to pull from all this, all these clips, right?

So yeah, like this has been super helpful. You see I've got comments on the side here of like, hey, like let's add a little graphic like this into the actual video because I think this would be really cool.

You know, it's a lot of work but it actually really helps when you get to the edit. Now do I think this is practical for a business owner who content is like their fifth job? Probably not, right? If you take anything away from this, just like take away like start with a controversial and, or, or bold claim and then share exactly how you're going to deliver that, you know, in the video and like the first 10, 15 seconds it doesn't need to, you don't need to spend three weeks on a video.

Kind of like what Sean was saying because we talked about that being right. Hey, like not everyone has time like a full time job to dedicate and create this content. But if you get the structure right and you kind of do it in a way where you're, you're working that muscle and I think that was the big takeaway. It's just like put the content out there, it's a quantity kind of game. But at the same time like just get yourself in that rhythm of learning because I would assume this process gets faster and faster. You know, now you figured out that flow for the hook which is probably like you know, 80% of the game because you're trying to get them engaged in the video and then you got them, you know.

And the cool thing is once I have this, I could probably hand this off to a copywriter or a team member and say here's the idea of the video. Go and find 20 other videos and link them like I did here. Like you can actually get outsourced some of this pre work. It doesn't mean you can outsource the idea creation. Like I still think you have to come up with the idea of the video. Right? Like I didn't outsource the like the video idea. I came up with it and then I could get all this work. But you could outsource the kind of the research part of this, which is nice. So, so yeah, like I don't know. And my thing is my thinking is like I do 6 videos rest of this year. If one of them takes off and gets 4,40,000 views, I'll probably get more subscribers in that than I had. I did a consistent weekly episode that got 500 views oh, yeah, 100%, you.

Know, and so that's the case, I think, for like YouTuber or, sorry, a Podcasters. And this is where. Why we did this pause and like, why we're actually doing this is because in using a process similar to this, we don't have like a perfect structure yet, but it's kind of following. You know, Sean Cannell has a whole big structure of. Of how. What he recommends. I like yours. This is. This kind of gets like the ideation phase and you go deep into it.

Yeah.

Because. Yeah. Like, let's be honest with. When we're doing podcasts, it's. It's tough to get this specific. You can maybe engineer the hook of an episode, but.

Right, right.

Yeah. I mean, in terms of like a longer episode, because it's all about watch time. That's. That's really what Sean came. And that's how your. Your channel, your videos will get pushed out to a wider audience is if you're proven to YouTube their algorithm that, like, all right, you're retaining people on content. It's tough with that interview, just as is.

It definitely is tough with the interview. I think solos are kind of like the hero. Like, you can do this with solo. I can't do this really well with an interview because I don't know what the guy's gonna say. So with. With the interviews, I think the best advice I would give is just like, focus on that first minute and how you. And then just with the guest, like, probably a good idea to sit down and have a. Have an idea of what you're going to talk about. One central idea. Right. That way it's just easier to package it, you know? Like, I had Alaric Heck on my show a couple months. A couple. About a month ago, and it was all about, like, I texted him, I was like, hey, I just want to talk about YouTube and feed ads. I don't care about. I don't care about sales conversions. I don't care about anything else. Is like, let's just break down how you can grow your channel with YouTube. And he's like, let's do it. So I think, like, just having a central idea, like that helps.

That's good. Alex coming on the show pretty soon here too. I was just talking with him as well. Yeah. And guy's a baller with the YouTube stuff. He is. The paid ads.

Oh, yeah.

And that's the thing like. Well, you know, you talked about. Because we did mention ads before. You know, the paid stuff. And you know, when Sean, when I Had him on Cannell, he was talking about organic, you know, and obviously you gotta work both. I mean, I guess you don't have to. But at the same time it still comes down to engagement in the video. Like if you want people to actually start engaging in the video and you want YouTube to help you out too, so you're not maybe always reliant on the paid stuff, but I guess what's your mindset going to that like thinking organic versus paid, how they play together?

That's a great question. So we've run paid ads somewhat successful. When I say somewhat successful, like I think we've driven like 5, 000 new subscribers for, for one of our channels through paid, which is, which is awesome. Granted that channel is big successful already. It's like 5,000 is probably like I want to say 5% of their.

Less like 2% of their like total channel. Right. So it's, it's a big channel already. However, it's like it's growing faster than it was before. So I think you have to find the winners. Like if you have a really good video that's on, that's doing good on organic. I, I, it's just funny, Alex told me this. He's like, don't run like, don't run it as like an in stream ad like those skippable ones at the beginning of a video. Because then if it's like 2 seconds watch time and your video starts getting 2 seconds watch time versus like 2 minutes, it's gonna tank the retention and it's actually gonna destroy it. Um, he did say that in feed ads, running them as ads running like a really good video as an infeed ad is okay as long as like the, the retention or the, the watch time doesn't go like drastically down. So that's what we're doing. Like we find the winners of these, of the YouTube channel and then we can, we will go ahead and just run ads to it and test it. Like we'll test it with a very small audience. Right. And that's been working quite well. Like I think I was looking at this morning, we have one of our videos running to like $5 a day cold traffic on YouTube infeed ads getting like 19% of the people who watch it stick to the end.

Whoa. That's really it.

Like it's insane. Yeah. And it's, it's a very specific video about a very specific topic that if people are going down that rabbit hole, like it's a great video for them. So it, it's done really well in organic and we're like let's just throw some money behind it. And the yeah, the amount of viewers and subscribers who've gotten from that is pretty impressive. So.

And you're targeting the type of people too? Yeah, you can be very specific and at least like and yeah, and I'm just thinking of like if you already have cause Google Analytics, I mean that's also a massive benefit from like the podcast side. Anyone who has a podcast knows like analytics there have lacked forever. But YouTube is like a whole different beast.

The last thing I'll say is so the thing that's working for us on the targeting so you can target by keywords or you can target by like similar videos. So what I did is I it's a very specific topic about a certain in the health space I wouldn't looked at all the top performing videos from other channels on those. So now it's like when you click on a video about that topic, my video is going to show up on the right hand side as a suggested search as a suggested video. And that seems to be getting higher watch time. So for context we have like two different SKUs. The one that's running for keywords actually gets more subscribers but we're the one that we said hey target like show this video to people who are watching a similar video. So I forget what it's called but it's like rel. Like it's a relatively similar video that actually has better watch time and less subscribers but the watch time is insanely higher. So I keep both of them because like I want, I want both.

Right.

But it's interesting how depending on the targeting you do keywords versus like related videos it I'm getting the name wrong so it's definitely not the technical term. It'll perform very differently because the audience you're showing it to.

This is the thing. There's so much to play with on YouTube and I genuinely think like that's the platform where like as a creator and I would, I think I would like define that as someone who just wants to put their thoughts out to the world. So yeah, I don't think it really matters what type of business you have. Obviously there's different strategies and intention but like if you're out there sharing your ideas and you want to genuinely give to more and maybe the intentions to get leads and the right prospects, well you don't need you know, the hundreds of thousands of viewers or even subscribers that is but just like it's the right people who are engaging big time. And YouTube's gonna help you find those people. You know, as long as you're treating YouTube and their algorithms correctly, which, yeah, watch time, I think is. Sounds like it's the biggest mechanism or the biggest KPI that they're looking at. Timeline, site, one platform.

Yeah, it's definitely hard. It's definitely hard to get people to stick. I mean, yeah, it's, it's. I think it comes down to obviously the audience, like, who that's being shown to, because you can have the best video, but it was shown to the wrong audience. It's not going to make, not going to do well. But then also just like the intentionality and like the, I think the, the better you show that you know their problems. Like if you're a, if you're a course creator or service provider, like, if you can really show that you're, you know, their problems, even if you only get 100 views, if the watch time is really good, it's like, that's great. Like, you may just have a small, total accessible market, but like, we're really serving the crap out of them. So. So I think it is, it's, it's a fun game. I get. I'm interested in it. And yeah, I think this keeps me, keeps me going, man. Like, it's just interesting. Nut to crack.

Yeah. And that's the thing. It's like. And I don't think it's too late for anybody, you know, and even podcasters who've been, you know, you could see some of these video podcasts have been starting to blow up. Like Diary of a CEO. Yeah, it's like. And, and I think some people are a little delusion because, like, wow, look at that beautiful setup, the studio and all this stuff. And you know, it's in, in person. But I don't think that's the thing. It's. It's more like what we're talking about here, the hooks, you know, and being very intentional. Even in an interview podcast, it could always be set up with you prior to, you know, maybe even the guest. If you didn't record perfectly, you know, with some setup hook, you can come back and do that. But speaking to that individual and then like really opening some loops, solving the things, you know, like I said, being bold, being controversial, like that applies here. Whereas a lot of podcasters aren't really thinking that way.

No, no. And they're the perfect one. If you look at their strategy, like Diary CEO, Modern wisdom, their strategy is like, we want to go broad, mass market. So like they're if I think Pally. No, Patty Galloway. Patty Galloway, yeah, He's a genius at this. But he worked with Noah Kagan and if you look at Noah Kagan's channel, it's blown up. And the reason why is because like you have like this market of like, here's like entrepreneurs, but then like this market of like people who are interested in business stuff but they're not necessarily entrepreneurs, is way bigger. And the way they changed their videos, they went from like talking to like very niche stuff like how to hire or how to like onboard somebody to like, I asked a billionaire how he made his money or how do you face made his first million? Still business related. But a lot more people are interested in that one versus like how to onboard another employee.

And it's bingeable too. Like, you're going to want to watch like five of them. Not like five tutorials necessarily in a row, but maybe five. Like, oh, yeah, this is cool. And it's shareable, it's clippable, it's like all of these things.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So, yeah, that mass market approach is very interesting because I think it's different from like, yeah, you need both, like, you need strategy, like very specific niche content to prove that you're an expert and why people want to work with you. But also if you want to get more views and more traffic, you need to go broader and mass market and broaden up the content topics a little bit more.

Yeah, yeah, it's widening the net. And let's be honest, it's like once you have them in that ecosystem, then I mean, the idea is to send them to the next path. If that's lead capture community where, you know, now you have them engaging on a different level. Yeah, cool, man. Well, that's, I mean, that's a big one because I know the focus on YouTube when we've been chatting, our little kind of mastermind we do every month, little virtual thing. YouTube's always a thing before we wrap. Like, are there any other big, you know, like trends or things you're noticing from the people that you're auditing? You say you do these audits for everyone's accounts. But like any other things that stand out, maybe even on the audio side?

I wouldn't sleep on audio because I still think audio is super important. You know, talking to a client yesterday and they're like, yeah, we make Most of our 80% of our leads, like on the four applications, like a high ticket business owner, he was like 80% of like our closes come from people who have said yes that I listen to the podcast and that's why I'm here. So audio and this is like a high ticket business as well. They've had their podcast probably like seven or eight years, but again, don't sleep on it. I think the biggest thing I've that I've seen grow podcasts this year is podcast pod swap. So using chartable they're smart promos feature where you can track like you can put an ad. I can put an ad in your podcast, Joe, for my show and I'll do the same for you. We can trade traffic on like saying like you put it in for four episodes or a thousand, however many impressions. That's really worked well now it's not gangbusters. It's not like I'm getting tons of new traffic, but I'm getting real people who are interested in podcasting and they're flowing in for free. So like we've gotten people like anywhere from I would want to say high end, like 10,000 new downloads over the course, like six months, additional downloads to like the low end. Like we had like some campaigns aren't always going to pop off. They'll get like maybe like 100, 200, 300 new downloads.

But in your self selecting, I feel like that again it comes back down to who are the core type of listeners and if you can gain an extra hundred people or so on listening to your show consistently and having them subscribe. I always think of the, what was it? Not the dream 100, but thousand true fans concept.

Kelly talked about it. It's like you have that and it's a thousand people who are tight into your message, into whatever you're putting out there. Exactly. And you know, everybody can grow and scale a thousand people listening per episode. I mean, right. Not everyone will get there. But consistency and doing these types of swaps and a few other, you know, guesting on other shows, I know we've talked about it. It's like it's just a consistency game. It's kind of like YouTube, you know, and then over time it's like you get these poor people that will follow for years. And yeah, I mean I've seen that. That's where it's like my prime community for this show is still an audio and like even more so than email or other communities. I want to change that a little bit to have more of a community element. Like we used to have that Facebook. I might switch it up to more like circle or something. But the point is like have a destination and from YouTube it'll be the same thing. It's like, hey, what's the next step look like? People sometimes take them to Patreon, for instance, or their own community. But it's like send them somewhere where you can now have that deeper conversation.

That's, that's phase two for me. I haven't got that far yet, but yeah, just trying to crack the YouTube thing.

We're working on it, man. Yeah, Yeah.

I love it, man.

Sweet. Well, tell folks where, you know we mentioned top 10 podcast.com is your go to place. I mean if any of this interested you, if you have a show that wants some scaling, I mean Louis is the man. His, his video on the page, it's like only a four minute video, but it's like super engaging. I'm like, dang, if I had a testimonial reel like that, I would be feeling pretty good about myself.

Thank you.

Yeah, man.

Like any, any last final words here before we wrap and I know we'll be doing it again.

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I'll have you back on my show and then we're going to talk about a swap or doing like an ad swap. And doing like a live, live example would be fun.

I want to do it, man. Let's do it.

So I have 673 sponsors, contact info if you want that for like podcast modules. These are all like my team spent like 40 plus hours scraping the Internet.

Sweet.

I'm like, let's just like get a bunch of people, put them in a spreadsheet and give it for free. So it's 673. I think we've probably added a few more since then. Maybe, maybe not. But if you want that, go to. Best place to go to is revenue per download.com and I'll make sure the site's there. Revenueper download.com. there is a calculator there that'll help you like fill out your stuff. But you fill it out, the ne. The first email that comes through has a link to that spreadsheet on those. For those, all those subscribers or for all those contacts. So if you want that we have like itemized like different categories so depending on what your, your show's about, you can get some sponsors hopefully and reach out to them.

Yeah, yeah. Revenue per download.com. that's the calculator. I remember using this too. It's a cool calculator. And the fact that you've already identified who's spending money with podcasters as an advertiser yes. Like, I know most people aren't making a cent from their podcasting efforts and. Right. You know, sponsors aren't always the thing. You know, it depends on a lot of factors, but shoot, at least, like, this is a great way to start, so.

Right.

Thank you for that. Yeah, yeah, welcome. Crack that nut. So RevenuePerDownload.com and you can learn a little bit more about Lewis and what he's doing there, too, brother. Appreciate you, man. And yeah, let's do it before another four year gap, because I'm sure podcast will be radically different. Probably won't even be called podcast cast anymore. Who knows? No.

Medic. Meta cast or something. Yeah.

Metacast. No, don't take us. Suck. All right, man, have a good one. Appreciate you.

Thanks, brother.