Dr. Ramani Interview on Narcissism, Healing, Cults, Therapy, Relationships, Money & Abuse!

The thing that throws people off about narcissistic folks is they're looking for almost a psychopathic lack of empathy. Narcissistic people understand this idea of empathy. They understand emotion. They can show up with what feels like empathy.

What are they actually seeking?

You know why the narcissist chose you? Not because you're the broken gazelle, not because you're damaged, not because you look like an easy mark. They chose you because you're attractive. They chose you because you're good supply.

Dr. Ramody Drvosla so awesome to be sitting here.

Always good to talk with you, Joe.

What I have to say about you is there are tens of thousands of people, you can read comments online that swear you saved their life, helped them in so many tremendous ways, finally brought healing, helping them going through currently insanely struggling situations. And you're, from my perspective, the world's leading expert on narcissism. And so I'm just going to start with. We've done interviews before, but I want to go right into like, let's have you define it just for the framework of our inter interview we'll do today and then we'll go into some questions about it.

Yeah, I mean, and it's important to define it because there's so much confusion. And I think every day there's more confusion because more people are making confusing content about it. Right. So narcissism's a personality style. Let's break out of the idea that it's a disorder, it's a personality style. And this personality style is characterized by lack of empathy or I would even say variable empathy, entitlement, grandiosity, arrogance, an excessive need for admiration or validation, pathological selfishness. It is a. And again, I would say really entitlement and lack of empathy are sort of the core pillars of narcissism. And then that narcissistic personality style shows up in a whole host of behaviors like manipulation, gaslighting, dismissiveness, blame shifting, not taking responsibility, a lack of self awareness, rage, withholding, withdrawing, betrayal. So you can imagine these are incredibly unhealthy relationships. When we go deep, when we really go deep, deep, deep into the core of narcissism, we're talking about someone who is deeply insecure and riddled with shame. The challenge is, is that you are not going to get there. Even the most skilled therapist has trouble getting there. And when a regular person's in a relationship with a narcissist, they that shame is constantly getting activated in the narcissistic person. And heaven knows what is setting it up. And that shame, as soon as that shame gets hit in the narcissistic person, boom, it's an explosion of rage. So a person who's in a narcissistic relationship feels like they're living in this unpredictable landscape of not knowing what's going to set this person off, what's going to lead them to give them the silent treatment or withhold, and then what's going to look like a normal day. And because there are normal days sprinkled in there, and many times the narcissistic person is grandiose and socially skilled, people will say, we have these days. And I really like them and I really love them. And then this other day comes. So people are incredibly confused. And it's this intermittent kind of good day, bad day, bad day, worst day that keeps people stuck and confused. That, though, is narcissism.

Gotcha. Okay, great. So. And you've pointed out in, in your books, in your latest book, which is it's not you, which is awesome, by the way, if you've not read it, uh, that it's like the buzzword of the decade or the last, maybe this century. Right? Narcissism. So there's. How are people misusing it? Or. Because I'll often see a lot of comments like, now everyone's called a narcissist. Or now. Or someone's like, my narcissistic partner is calling me a narcissist. What the heck? You know? And they start hating the word narcissism. And so, like, love to get your perspective on that.

This is a huge problem, Joe. Everyone using the term. And I think once upon a time, even before we really started talking about this on a public stage, a lot of people took narcissism to be someone who liked looking in the mirror a lot, and it was very vain. That was sort of the old school.

Because that's the origin of narcissist Narcissus.

Right? The myth of Narcissus, and even the myth of Narcissus has gotten twisted over time, because when we really go back to the original myth and what Ovid wrote about in the original mythology of it was Narcissus was the beautiful boy who sort of spurned the advances of one of the nymphs and then got punished for his arrogance of pushing her away and was doomed, Joe doomed to only be able to love his reflection. And so sad did he become that his reflection would not return his love, that he killed himself. So Narcissus is actually A tragic story. Narcissistic people, in their fashion, are tragic people. And so the overuse of this term is there are. People have always been frustrated in relationships. Right. This is the nature of relationships. Right. But the tricky piece is that a person who is very vain or who is on Instagram all the time, it's not. They're not necessarily a narcissistic person. A person who cheats on someone in a relationship may not necessarily be a narcissistic person. A person who lies to you may not necessarily be a narcissistic person. A person who is not a very nice boss or a demanding boss may not be a narcissistic person. You got to have all the pieces. If you give me a bag of flour, I'm not saying you gave me a cake.

Right.

You know what I'm saying? So it's, it's. It's a. It's a. People will. Will pick out the one component of it that might be hurting them, like selfishness. Selfishness by itself does not a narcissist make. And I think people are focusing on singular strands or they're using it as an insult. So actually, when I trained therapists, I really pivot to the use of the term antagonism, because in the world of psychology and psychiatry, that term takes in a. It's like a broader construct that takes in manipulativeness and arrogance and hostility. And it applies to a variety of things, not just narcissism, but also near neighbors like sociopathy and psychopathy. Right, right.

Okay. So in your latest book, you know, one of the. One of the emphasis and focuses on helping the person heal. Not so much emphasis on the narcissist itself, although the first beginning part lays the foundation and the groundwork. So for people that are out there, let's play a game. How do you spot a narcissist in a crowd?

You know, you know, it's funny, that's. This is the question everyone grapples with. How quickly can I find them? What are the red flags? How can I pick them out in a crowd? I mean, listen, it's a probability game, right? It's like picking a horse in a race. You're going to. If you pick the odds on favorite, it's probably a good bet. But they still may not win the race in a crowd. If somebody said, all right, I'll give you ten bucks. Tell me who's most likely to most narcissistic person here. I'm probably going to gravitate to either the most charming, charismatic attention Seeking person in the room or the most aggrieved, angry person in the room. Those are my two bets, right? They're different people. Sometimes that aggrieved, angry person isn't as socially skilled. They might be sort of victimized and sullen and petulant and whereas that grandiose, charismatic, charming person is smooth as can be and is pulling all the, you know, pulling chairs out for ladies to sit at the table, like all the manners and all of that. So you'll see these two different kinds of portrayals, but those are the two people I'd be looking for in a room. Unfortunately, we're drawn to that charming, charismatic person.

Yeah, no, totally, totally. So do narcissists usually develop relationships with non narcissists or do they often find each other together?

So you find you're asking such an interesting question. And I've really been doing a deeper dive into this issue, so I'm so glad you asked it. One of the things that people struggle with is they say, am I a narcissist magnet? And one thing I tell everyone who's ever gotten into a narcissistic relationship, I say to them, you know why the narcissist chose you? Not because you're the broken gazelle, not because you're damaged, not because you look like an easy mark. They chose you because you were attractive. They chose you because you're good supply and whatever. For every narcissist, supply is a little different, right? Narcissistic folks are heat seeking status missiles. They want status. Right now, status means different things to different people. For some people, it's looks and appearance. For another person it may be money. For another person it might be position. For another person it might be contacts. It depends on everyone, right? And for some people, it might be that they're absolutely beautiful, but like very malleable, right? But that supply is going to be different. So they chose you because you're a fantastic supply.

And.

And a narcissistic person isn't going to choose someone who makes them look bad. So I always say, folks, if they chose you, you got it going on. So let's not get into this place of you're somehow broken. And so for that reason, a narcissistic person could end up with any number of people in a relationship, including another narcissistic person, because another narcissistic person could be quite charming and charismatic and grandiose and attractive themselves. And you can imagine that's an extraordinarily volatile relationship. And we're talking a lot about intimate relationships in a way, sort of how we're framing it. This can happen in families, this can happen in business relationships. You and I have talked about that a lot. You can imagine if you're in business and you're looking for someone to be like this great business partner, someone who's really visionary and charming and energetic and charismatic, that might be who you're drawn to. And then before you know it, the whole business goes poof because you've got this narcissistic business partner.

Okay? So that's really great. I want to have you go elaborate a little more on narcissistic supply because in your book you just define. Because that's what they want. They want supply. Like what is that actually mean? And let me frame it from this standpoint. So we all go into relationships because we want something, right? I always say this all the time. You know, it's like, what do people want? We're going to want to eat lunch later, right? Everybody wants something. People are coming to this event today because they want to do trauma healing. So everyone wants something. People go into relationships because they want companionship, maybe they want intimacy, they want sex, they want whatever. So the narcissist, what are they actually seeking? Because I think it's. You really help people understand what they're looking for. And if they don't get it, they can get really ugly, they can get very violent. They can destroy their. Your life.

Right. And I'm going to, I'm going to push back on you a little. Joe here is that it's that everyone's wanting something in a relationship. Because I also think that even more primal to us is an attachment seeking element. And that's less of a want, but a drive and a need. Right. Human beings are wired for attachment. And when a human being is not attachment oriented, it's actually a bit pathologic. Right. We're a tribal species. We live in small social groups. We need each other. We have babies that take a long time to get to maturity. So that means you need multiple people on the job. Right. So evolutionarily, we are attachment seeking creatures. Right. So it means that most people are seeking attachment, connection, reciprocity, mutuality, compassion. They want to, you know, there's caring and being cared for. Right? Right. The narcissistic person though, isn't coming at that from a different angle. Not saying the narcissistic people don't want attachment, though. They tend to be more anxiously and avoidantly attached. So they're either not. There's a lack of capacity for intimacy or there's like a lot of a push, pull in, out, in, out kind of thing. But that supply seeking is almost a higher order motivation for them, right? Because that feeds that insecurity. There's an empty beast in them that's always needing more, more and more and more. And so that supply is something that not only makes the transaction of the relationship make sense to them. Right? Because a relationship isn't for that, just that attachment need for them. It's. They're getting something from this. Right. Whatever getting something means. And it's usually some form of social status, right? But supply gets stale, right? At some point that very attractive partner gets older and is not as attractive, or they're not a novelty anymore. And narcissistic folks are very reward sensitive. That's why we see a high overlap with narcissism and addiction. That same kind of dopaminergic orientation of reward, reward, reward, whatever that looks like gambling, drugs, alcohol, sex, pick your poison, shopping. You know, there is also that kind of compulsion we see. So that supply is really kind of an offset to the insecurity and the shame. And it bolsters those external defenses like entitlement that allows the narcissistic person to sort of feel anodyne, in control and able to dominate. So that it's a constant sort of feeding the energy to do that.

Gotcha.

Does that make sense?

Totally. No. And the other flip side, which I didn't finish on, like we all want something. I tend to look at it from the standpoint of if you want something from somebody, make sure that your give is equal to a greater want. So you're not a taker. And narcissists seem to be the ultimate takers. Yeah, they just take like it's not a give. And if it is a give, it's like fake.

Well, it's a performative give at that point. The give is still also a source of supply. That's where we talk about communal narcissism. Those narcissistic folks who they sort of trick people because unlike the grandiose narcissist who's very extroverted and sort of look at me and sort of shiny and handsome and all this other stuff. Or the vulnerable narcissist who plays victim and everyone gives them supply by trying to like save them or give them supply in some other way, the communal narcissist gets their supply by playing at humanitarian and rescuer. And I'm the great savior. And so that's why at the most Extreme end of the communal continuum, we would see a cult leader, but at the more mild ends, we'd see the person who, who seems to be organizing things to save every vulnerable group in the world. But behind closed doors they're screaming at their spouse, they're screaming at their staff. So they're a terrible person. But to the world they seem like a humanitarian. You know what I'm talking about?

I absolutely. You're the. We knew. I first. You first shared that term with me about, I don't know, four years ago. We were talking and won't name names. Very famous person. Men and women that give to charity let the whole world know they're doing it. Social media, posts, television, you name it. And they're donating to everything, they're contributing everything. But absolutely, it's all a status seeking. Look at me, I'm so wonderful, I'm so great.

And Joe, the wellness world is also fraught with this too. I mean, I have worked with many people in yoga communities, things like that. They'll say, I went in with my heart open, wanting to learn from this teacher, from this healer. And by the time time they were done in, in this space, I went into vulnerable. A very narcissistic person was at the top of that food chain and advantaging people and sort of is quite extortionate. It was humiliating. And, and that to me is heartbreaking because it's hard enough for a person to get to vulnerability, but then to get pulled into a community where once again they're caught in a toxic transaction. That. That's communal narcissism.

Totally. What is the. I've got a few questions I've written down I wanted to ask you. So what's the single most surprising thing narcissists do that people never expect until it's too late?

I think the thing that throws people off about narcissistic folks is they're looking for almost a psychopathic lack of empathy. Does that make sense? So we keep hearing lack of empathy, lack of empathy. So they're expecting to meet someone cold and remote and distant who doesn't cry at movies and who doesn't like babies and doesn't like puppies and all of that stuff. Right. So when they meet a narcissist person who actually can seem quite gregarious and warm and cry at the movie and be emotional at times, that's what throws people off. And I think this is why we've got to get away from this idea of the narcissistic person having like a Forked tongue and, you know, like horns on their. On their head. That's not that people fall in love with these folks because there's a moment in time, in many moments in time, when they can show up when. With what feels like empathy, but it's often what we call cognitive empathy. Narcissistic people understand this idea of empathy. They understand emotion. They could say, I understand why you feel that way. It feels very analytic. But that's not emotional empathy, which is somebody's entire demeanor changing. Somebody not screaming at you on a bad day because it's inconvenient. Right. But that cognitive empathy, I have to say, is the thing that throws a lot of people off because they'll see someone who looks. And it like, looks empathic. And so they're saying, well, maybe they're not narcissistic because they were really nice to my aunt when she came to visit or they really cried at that person's funeral. Like, they seem to show this emotion. And I think that the key is to sort of understand this idea of cognitive empathy, but also consistency and how they show up on your bad days.

Hey, I hope you're enjoying this video. And I want to let you know that I have a new book that's come out, and if you'd like to get it absolutely free, there's a link below in the description. Or you can wait till the end of this video, or you can Simply go to joe'sfreebook.com and you can get a copy there. Gotcha. No, Great. Great. So why do so many people stay emotionally trauma bonded even when they know the narcissist is. Is toxic?

So there's. There's a couple ways I want to go with this is. One is the con. The. The. The idea of trauma bonding is really based on a. On a. What feels like, almost like a physiologically unbreakable connection you have with someone that's created by that alternation between good and bad or not so bad and better or whatever it may be. But it's an alternation, right? If we think of it in its most primal way for how a trauma bonded relationship is created for a child, the child needs the caregiver. There's no alternative here. So the child has to go through all of these mental accommodations to maintain that relationship. Narratives they create, blaming themselves, anything to make it so they can maintain that relationship. And there's a lot of justifications, there's a lot of excuses, There's a lot of almost metaphysical thinking about the relationship to keep it in place, place because the idea of losing that relationship for a child is a complete attachment fracture that the child simply couldn't tolerate and survive. Now fast forward to adulthood where we don't have those same survival needs, but still that alternation with someone we feel attached to, connected to, that we love, because there are some good days. Again, that pattern of rationalization and justification and having the same arguments and never quite resolving them and making excuses for the relationship. And one of the things that also happens is people become isolated in these relationships so they don't get that sort of alternate point of view, right? And that's, there's something almost deliberate about that. People won't be able to articulate in an adult manner what they like about this person. Again, I always call it my trauma bond hack when I'm working with a client is they'll say, I love them, I love them. It's clearly a dysfunctional relationship. I'll say, what do you love about them? And the client will always pause and they'll say, okay, Dr. Ramani, I, well, okay, so I love, I, I, I can't put it into work. That's what I know. I'm like, this is trauma bonding. Because when you really love someone and it's healthy, you'll say, this is my friend, my companion. I love being with them. I look forward to seeing, seeing them. I, we share so much like they're, they're articulating a coherent model of the relationship versus a trauma bonded relationship. There's no coherent schema because it's all based on this sort of physiological panic model. Does that make sense? Totally. And so the idea, and the person will say, the idea of ending this relationship fills them with panic even as they intellectually at a, at almost like a cerebral cortex level, they know this is not a healthy relationship. Like, I know they cheat on me, I know they lie. I know, I know. But what's happening is much more, it's much more primal, right? It's much more attachment oriented where there is a sense of panic, of what if I'm always alone? What if they find someone better? What if it's me? That's not enough. And that panicky system is what sort of kicks in for someone. And undoing that is no small task. Therapeutically. A lot of folks really benefit from trauma oriented work. And where did this, where did the schema, where did this model come from? So a schema is a mental model, right? And we can think of this in terms of again what I was using the term a coherent narrative, a coherent narrative. Is being able to look at something holistically. Great example would be a childhood, right? A childhood where a person could say, I was abused by one parent or I was abandoned by the parent. And since then, I keep looking for people who reject me, but when a kind person comes along, I reject them. The person is able to see everything in a very coherent, consistent, stable way. So the more stable the schema usually, the healthier it is because it almost becomes like a little mental gps. I know how to navigate the situation. And schemas are driven by experience, they're driven by temperament, they're driven by culture, and they're driven by personality. Right? So and having that model, when it's coherent and healthy, then a person's also even able to say, oh, I see what I'm doing here in this relationship. But I often see in the more trauma bonded relationships, there's no coherence in that schema and that narrative.

No, super helpful. So how, how do we set ourselves up for being able to develop healthy, connected relationships? Because you've heard this thousand times where someone's like, why they keep picking this bad person? What's wrong with me? Like, there's something their pickers messed up. And maybe it is, maybe the. And when I say it, I mean they've been in damaging relationships and they're scared, they're gunshot, they don't know what to do. They're, you know, they've, they've been burned, they don't want to get hurt again. So therefore they don't play to win. They play not to lose. And if you play not to lose, you tend to lose.

So I want, I want to connect this back to our trauma bond. Our trauma bond question too. When we think of this narcissistic relationships, we often make the knee jerk assumption that this is a trauma bonded relationship. Not necessarily. So too. There are plenty of people in narcissistic relationships who aren't trauma bonded but can't get out. So it's very. And I work with a lot of folks who are in narcissistic relationships and not trauma bonded. They're like, if this fool walked out the door tomorrow, as long as I could keep my kids or keep the house, I would be fine. So there's external structures, practical issues, minor children, finances, family court, a whole host of other things, family traditions, whatever it may be. So those folks are like, I see this 100% clearly, but there's no clear path out for me right now. To your point about how do we talk with people and create these Healthier models of relationships. First of all, we need to create healthier models of relationships. We don't talk to people about this, Right. For all the things we talk about, we don't really have those straight up informed by psychological science conversations of what makes a healthy relationship. And I keep using these terms, mutuality, reciprocity, respect, compassion, and above all else, Joe, psychological safety. That a person feels like they can come into a relationship and show up as they are, farts and all, and not feel that they are going to be rejected on that. And, and I say that jokingly, but I always say, like, there's the fart test in the relationship. That first time you pass gas in front of someone, you're like, oh my God. I'm like, what did you, did you really think you were going to be married to someone in 50 years and not pass gas in front of them? And I'm like, and look, they're still here. Maybe they'll, they'll laugh a little. And I'm like, if they get up and leave because you had beans for dinner, I don't know that this was the keeper. But I think that that kind of model of I have to be perfect, I have to show up as this idealized version of myself. I can't be authentic. And I do think it takes us to that conversation about authenticity, another really overused word these days. But that has so much power in creating healthy relationships because that requires us, even before the relationship, to do a deep dive in who am I? What do I stand for? How do I show up? And people are afraid of that because they were told, maybe in childhood, I show up as my true self, I'm going to be raged at, I'm going to be told I'm sad, selfish, I'm going to be told I'm ungrateful. They go into a relationship, the first time they show up as a true self, they're rejected. And so that can really squelch that authentic self. Right? But that's what a healthy relationship is, that capacity to feel like you're in something that's not only psychologically safe, but balance. We are very much so still. And I think social media made this worse in the era of the check, the check mark relationship, you know, if for I think we still have very gendered anticipations around that, whether it's around money or appearance or youth or whatever it may be, intelligence, anything. And instead of these very, very sorts of healthy barometers. And I don't know about you, Joe, but I have a handful of Friends who are in fantastic long term relationships and marriages. And when I look at all of their relationships, and these are people you can, of every age, ethnicity. These are straight couples, These are queer couples. These are couples with money, without money. And you feel that you're in the presence of two people who get each other, who, who have each other's backs. It doesn't feel lovey dovey. I don't feel like I'm in some sort of, you know, sort of fairy tale. I feel like I'm with two people where it's just like a big cozy blanket and I just want to stay in their house for forever. And that, and that kind of alchemy. There was often two healthy people that entered that relationship.

That's really great. Yeah. And that, that feels really good. And there are. And I'll tell you, I think it's important to have models.

Yeah.

Of relationships because if everyone you hang around with is completely dysfunctional and talking about each other, you know, it's just. Yeah. It doesn't help you at all. We need and look, I think in a lot of ways you are providing models. Like I take. Like we have one interview that we did that has over a million views and I have at least 100 times when someone has sent me a message because I have genius recovery. So I'm talking to people that are struggling with addiction all the time. It's just kind of weird how I've. My own recovery has led to all these other things I do. And I will utilize your interviews. I will say you need to watch this. And so it's not just an interview. It's. It's literally a toolkit. It's helping people watch work through their, their lives. So what is if you could wave a magic wand. There's so much you've learned. You've had so many of these conversations. You ever get sick of talking about this stuff?

I don't. Because, Joe, one of the beauties of being sort of a former academic is you never stop the work. Like it's all. Your head's in the journal articles. You're always reading the new science. You're again, even. Here we are today at this beautiful seminar on trauma. I get to learn from Gabor all day. I get to learn from Kimberly all day. I get to learn from folks like you about addiction. So it's, it's not just getting your head in the clouds with all the minutiae of the science, but talking to people who have walked the walk. And so every day as a teacher and it's like this gigantic sculpture. You're always adding more clay to it. You're always flexible and willing to sort of see things in a new way. So I never get tired of it because I have the real privilege of always getting to learn, pushing myself to learn, always reading books and always talking to survivors.

Yeah, yeah. And so, so you've learned so much that, like, what have you discovered over the last year or so that you're like, oh, this is really valuable, that I think people need to be aware of this. And I'd love to have you share some of those things because you're, you're always on the cutting edge of all of this. I mean, you, you, you in. I mean, I really admire just how much work and what you deal with is pretty heavy. I mean, you deal with some very difficult situations that I don't know very many people that could unravel some of the stuff that you, you, you, you work with.

Well, I really appreciate that, but again, it feels like a real privilege. You know, I've lived experience in all of this, so I get it. I feel it, and I know how important it is for people to feel seen and not shamed. But I think that the piece that. In this year, that has really been illuminating for me, and it's such, it's such a. I was reading in all these sort of complex models, but the simple part of it is anyone who's in a narcissistic relationship, I don't care how mild or severe it is, it is a relational trauma, and it is a betrayal trauma. And the only way to treat relational trauma is in relationship that we. That you are now, basically, you are fixing that broken schema of a relationship. And even whether it's in the therapeutic room where you're teaching someone, people show up, people care, that this can be a healthy space, that the therapist can show up authentically. And. And then it's about helping that person heal in community. And we have a monthly membership. And what I've seen now, we've had it for over two years, and you need that much time to sort of see changes in trend. What's been remarkable watching that healing community is watching people who all came in, not everyone didn't come at the same time. Like some people come, drop out, whatever. But is watching people evolve from feeling that they couldn't even get out of bed to becoming the healers themselves. They healed relationally. You see this in the addiction community all the time. We heal relationally. Right. That idea that somebody can go off with a book or a podcast and do this themselves is never going to happen. Or even, I still don't even think therapy is sufficient. There has to be community. We heal in community. And I think that helping people understand that they're not alone. And I have, you know, listen, I have worked with folks who've been in 30, 40, 50 year marriages with narcissistic folks, right? So raise kids in it, the whole nine yards. And they said, you know what, Dr. Ramany? If I had five years, eight years into this marriage, even before we had kids, one or two years in, had I read this, I would have gotten out. There was just simply no framework. We had no language. Right. And so, and that applies in the world of addiction. Think of how long there was no language. We didn't understand this as a disease. We didn't understand how people heal. We didn't understand the intersection of trauma and addiction. Right. When those, each of those layers of the onion got peel, healed away, we have had more compassionate conversations. People are getting better treatment. Well, narcissism is about 20 years behind that right now in terms of understanding how that shows up in relationships. And now that people are getting these schemas, they're willing to clock these patterns earlier. And that plus the relational understanding, I think we're actually going to start seeing people being more discerning in their relationships, maybe sort of capture these things as patterns and start disengaging earlier. You giving themselves even permission, not just in intimate relationships, but even in workplace relationships, family relationships, saying, no, this, this isn't okay. This is, this is one sided, this is asymmetric, this doesn't make sense. So, but it, I think the needle is moving. But as all arcs are, they move quite slowly. And so those are the things I've really learned in the last year. So I really am focusing on the community piece of this.

Yeah, no, so, so critical. And I, I always go back to this saying, you're sick of your secrets. And so having people to talk to, silent battles, the hardest battles to fight, to try to do this on your own is so difficult. So I absolutely agree. I mean I, I would have never had recovery with addiction without.

I don't think anyone would.

Yeah, yeah. And I always say to people, you know, like even when they talk about 12 steps, it's not an attendance program. No, it's a step program. You go, you go meet other people, you do the steps, that sort of thing. I've read comments where, and I'm so curious because I've never asked you this, where someone would probably a narcissist on the other side where you, you know, you are really describing someone. They'll say like she's a narcissist. They call you a narcissist. Yeah. So how do like what, what is, what is, what is that about? How do you interpret it?

I, I mean listen, if somebody sees themselves in the content, first of all I applaud them for willing to do that. I think that's an incredibly vulnerable thing to do. However, that vulnerability activated the shame, activated the rage and they're going to Joe, I'm going to be very, I'm, I'm, I am willing to be completely self effacing in that they see a person who makes her living putting herself in a public forum to teach people about this and in some level it's paying the bills. Right. You know, I'll give them that. Right. And, and many. I get that and it hurts my feelings. I'll be, I'm very, I do not ruin my, my comments. I would be in a psychiatric hospital if I read my comments. I'm still a very, very sort of. I have my like, I understand my own neurotic personality structure and my fearfulness and all the things right. And so I really would dig in and my own therapy say do I have empathy? And she's like why, why are we having this conversation? You have deep empathy, you know. And so it's like I'm thinking I will even stand in a line when I don't need to stand in line because I don't want anyone to think like she ever taking advantage. So I know I'm not those I'm very. Because entitlement is sort of the trunk of the tree. And so I don't, I never and so I'm pretty confident that I'm not In fact I think if I was narcissistic my business would have been so much better and so much bigger. But I, I, but you do come against that. And I do think that more than anything is that people are being made uncomfortable about this conversation and so it's activating shame in them. I, I also think that it's the nature of, of online spaces and so people around the attack. I'm sure you get all this stuff all the time and so any of us in this space too. Yeah.

No, you, you, you just like what Just hearing you say that makes me realize why the heck are we so sensitive? Where I could read like a book review where you know there's like one, there was one that I read recently that was negative review. And right before and right after is like, this is the best book I've ever read. And I'm like, how is it, you know, but why do I get so bothered by that? Why do we get so. Why are we so sensitive to it and how do we not be bothered by it? Or maybe that's part of just being a really cool human. Like, yeah, you're sensitive. You, you, you know, you want, you don't want people to call you something that you don't, that you're not, or you don't feel that you're not. I mean, I, you know, how. I guess. How do we become less bothered by it?

I don't know that we do become less bothered by it. In fact, maybe we don't. I don't know that we do. I think that part of the burden of empathy is that that also would, would sensitize us to that kind of discourse. And it will. And I'm going to be frank with you. I think that anyone who's had a history of trauma and anyone who's had. Or a history of these kinds of narcissistic betraying relationships, there is such, again, a core schema of what's wrong with me? What did I do wrong? Do I deserve this? Am I the bad one? Right. Since that's such a central schema, that kind of constantly commentary is going to bounce off of that. And instead of like, I'm absolutely not. That is that there's a, there's a plausibility to it. And then it causes this sort of grappling. And I don't think grappling is ever a bad thing. That, that creates the core of accountability, which is another core element of a healthy relationship. But I don't need to be sitting there all day. And I'm very much. I, again, one of the things, the way I opened up this book was a story of me as a child and, you know, with a purple dress and not willing to, you know, sort of put myself out there with more than anything. Cause I didn't want to be made fun of. That was the driver that day is I did not want people to see me and make fun of me. And even to this day I still think, what the hell are you doing? But I, because there was no way to do this anonymously, right? I could have tried. And then people are like, what the heck is this? So I, I do. In academia, in some ways you can be very anonymous. So for decades of my career, you really are. You sort of, in fact, the way our work is reviewed in academia is it's done, it is done anonymously. They remove our names from the manuscript. So there's no bias in the peer review process. So there's almost a built in anonymity in the scholarly process. And so if people say it, they say it. And I'm thinking if they, again, I'm not reading the comments, so I'm not seeing it. But, but if they, if it did lead the person to grapple with, well, maybe I am the narcissistic one. Maybe then the content was worth it.

Yeah, well, look, I mean, for every, for every person that ever says that there are, you have so many, I mean, literally, you have millions of glowing comments about you. If you were to look at every video that has been put out. And the thing I admire about you is not, you're not like this marketing person trying to get views and follows or get people. I mean, you know, because I've known you long enough to, you're just out there trying to help people and.

Yeah, yeah. And it's funny because I know a lot of folks who, they, they algorithmically generate content. They see which videos do you know well or content does well, and they shape it. And for me, actually, Joe, because I am such a reader and a listener and talking to other people or if you will, my content is very much driven by something that hit me hard. And I'm thinking this hit me hard, it might hit someone else harder. Maybe it'll mean one more person is understood. So listen, if I can keep the lights on and the kids in college, I'm fine.

No, and for, and you, you truly are a person that's in the transformation business, not the transaction business.

Yeah, no, we're definitely in the transformation business. Trying at least.

I, I, I've not told you. I, I recently acquired the website transformation.com.

Good for you.

Don't know what I'm going to do with it yet.

Well, you'll do something.

I've wanted it for 20 years. It's directed to genius recovery at the moment. And I've been, But since I, I've gotten that, I got it from a friend who's had it for a long time, refused to even sell it to like Oprah and stuff.

Didn't want anything weird done with it.

And so I acquired this site and I've been thinking about the term transformation. Like, what does that actually mean? And that's really kind of what you help people do. How would you define transformation? Like, what does that even mean? Because there's you know, there could be the. The fluffy spiritual ways that we can look at it, but, you know, there's. What does that mean?

So to me, transformation is not like a. A wholesale 180, but it's actually an orientation of a person back to themselves and seeing themselves accurately. That's what transformation is to me.

So is it possible to heal from narcissistic abuse without constantly focusing on the narcissist? And if so, how do you do that?

The only way to heal from narcissistic abuse is to not focus on the narcissist. Right. The understanding the narcissist pieces to me is like the module one. It's like the first grade of it. All right? You need to understand what you're up against. You need. That helps inform the dynamics and the. Really the. It's not you of it all, but from there on in, it's all you, you. It's about you. That was the thing that happened that tripped you up, that shaped your identity, that basically the only way the relationship works is if we quit ourselves and become what they want us to become. So that's why the COVID of the book is always these layers.

Right?

Right. Because it's really meant to be an excavation. You're going back and finding the little shards of pottery that made you.

There's so many more questions I could ask you. We could. We could do this for a long time. What did. What did I not ask you that I should have.

I'm gonna ask you a question. How about we do it that way?

Love it.

Right. Because you work in the addiction space. And this is. This is something. Interestingly, in the last year and a half, I've been asked to talk to you about what are your feelings about what we find in the science about. About the overlaps between narcissism and addiction.

Well, I think we find people whose dents match our dents. And so if we heal ourselves, the relationships that are no longer expanding or contracting us tend to go away. I approach everything from is this person, is this situation, is this feeling expanding me, or is it contracting me? When I was in active addiction, I was not responding to life, meaning not being responsible. Because what is responsibility? It's. It's responding with ability. And so I was reacting to life all the time. And if you are around a reactive narcissist, because my. My view of narcissists is they're setting off bombs, they leave a lot of shot constantly. Right. And so to remind move some games in life, the only way you win is you don't play and you have to get out of these games that you're not winning. And like Gabor Mate, who we're going to be with here in a few minutes, you know, he has that, that term. The question is not why the addiction, but why the pain? So I view addiction from the lens of it is a solution. It's not a very good solution. It's a solution, but if you're lonely, if you're hurting, if you're anxiety ridden, if you're depressed, depressed, you're going to look for a way to scratch the itch. And the narcissistic supply is very similar. You know, like, why was Al Anon created? Or you know, codependence. Anonymous Right. Who? I, you know, I know Ken Richardson, who's created, you know, Coda, because you become addicted to the person, to the, to the crazy making. And so I think the link between addiction and narcissist in a lot of ways, if you feel broken, if you feel hurt, it's, it's, it's, it's kind of like cotton candy doesn't have real nutrition, but it gives you that hit.

Does.

And it's, there's a narcissistic hit. And so I don't know if I'm answering the question very well. The, the way that I look at it though is like, man, it's kind of like the whole purpose of your latest book, it's not you, is to heal yourself. And if you heal yourself, you can, you can't fully remove yourself off of times from it, but you can definitely put up better boundaries. And I think, I believe everyone can find peace and healing if they stick with it long enough. And it may not have to always be super long. I mean, you can, you know, every passing moment is another chance to turn it all around. I think that was from the really wacky movie Vanilla sky years ago. So I think we could have that. But ultimately it's, it's heal yourself and remove yourself from those relationships and be aware of it. Last thing I'll say is that I never noticed. I ignored red flags and you helped me a lot with this. I ignored a lot of red flags because I always, I, I felt I'm an empathetic person. Let's give people a chance, right?

Yeah.

And. But they were there. But what I didn't notice at all with the yellow flags.

Yeah.

Didn't even occur to me. And so as, as I build up my awareness, as I, I built up my awareness, I've gotten a lot Healthier relationships. And guess what? I have the longest stretch of addiction recovery that I've ever had. Right.

And so, yeah, and then last question, because this is Genius Network, and it's for entrepreneurs. My last question to you is, do you feel a person can be a successful entrepreneur without narcissism?

Absolutely. I mean, I've asked you many times, am I a narcissist? Like, are there parts of me that are quote, unquote, narcissistic, that sort of thing? And yes, not only do I think you. Well, it depends how you define success. Because if we look at financial success, there's tons of very financially successful narcissists and world leaders right now that are, in my opinion, awful humans, causing not only damage emotionally to people, but murder. I mean, they're literally hurting people that are very wealthy, that have high status. And I think that's the hardest thing for people that are good carrying people to see. Why is this? Why do I work so hard? I raise kids, I raise my family. I do so much work. And you see this out here getting rewarded. But is that really success? You know, success is, to me is, you know, you. Like you said, if you're in a home with a healthy relationship, you just want to stay there all day. It, like, hugs you. You know, to be able to go to bed and feel like, you know, I can hug myself, I can love myself because I didn't leave, I didn't go and hurt people. Outdated. I don't have a bunch of people hating me because of my behavior. I'm a contributor. I mean, to me, that is far more successful than anything else.

I totally agree. And I think one of the big challenges in entrepreneurship is because it is. I mean, there is. I admire entrepreneurs. Some entrepreneurs scare me. I consider myself an entrepreneur. I've learned so much from you is that I think we often conflate that the success. The success, the competitiveness, the capacity to market, all of that requires that narcissism. I firmly believe it doesn't. But I do think in some ways it might slow a person down to a growth that's more organic. Right. Because they're not just doing anything and everything to get to the top and saying, well, I'll clean up the messes later. So I think to be an ethical, heartfelt, compassionate entrepreneur is not only possible. I see it happen all the time. And it's an extraordinary thing to witness. It may not be as Sassy and Forbes 500e, but it's super. Certainly can be something that changes the world the way Like I always say, planting an orchard always takes a minute, but it's going to yield a lot of fruit for a long time.

Love that saying. Love that. And look, there's a lot of successful people that live in prisons with golden bars.

Absolutely.

And you've seen it. You see it all the time. And unfortunately, you know, I always say this to young people. If I would have known that being successful was this much work, I would have stuck with being a loser. Right. And I say it jokingly because, you know, you have no idea how. I mean, if people went behind the scenes, I mean, I know that's one of the reasons I say complimentary things about you. You have worked your ass off. I mean, you wake up every day and you go to battle with things that most people won't. And that's admirable.

It is battle. Yeah, yeah. For both you and I. Yeah, totally.

But you know what? That is such meaningful stuff. It makes a difference. And with all these narcissists that have a bunch of people that hate them, that leave a bunch of scorched earth, that don't encourage people, I mean, I like if there's any karma, if there's any sort of thing, which I believe there is, and there's, There's a source of, of, of ethical energy, I think life gives to the giver and takes from the taker. It may not happen right away, you may not see it, but if you, you know, you go long term, you know, be nice to the people you meet on the way up, they're going to be the same, the same people you meet on the way down. And I've seen a lot of narcissists that have had, you know, lots of, you know, external validation success and they. Boy, but they hit a point, they end up in prison, they end up with cancer, they end up with all kinds of sort of thing. And. Yeah, and so final thing, how so? You're always a domino. I mean, people will hear our conversations. It will, it will trigger something where. What do you give out some resources that you have for people that are looking for help, where they can go that would be most helpful because you are. You are the one.

Well, I mean, you always go to my website, drromini.com and you'll sort of find the clearinghouse of everything. We've got stuff ranging from free to stuff that's sort of a, you know, mild monthly cost. So we have YouTube, which every single day there's new content. We have the new Dr. Romany network that's powered by The Fireside platform, which is sort of an interactive network, which is a new thing we're doing, which is. I actually been really quite fascinating and wonderful. We have a monthly membership for people who are healing from narcissistic relationships. I have multiple books on the topic, taking narcissism and healing from these relationships from a bunch of different angles. If you're a therapist, I have a 36 hour asynchronous training program that culminates in a certification in working with clients experiencing narcissistic abuse. And we even have cohort models where you. You can come together and not only do the asynchronous training, but also have an opportunity to meet in groups so we can talk about cases and that sort of thing. So there's all sorts of things we have going on and we sort of try, try to share those pearls of wisdom as often as we can. But there's a lot out there that people can learn from what I'm doing. What we're doing. Yeah.

Awesome. Well, you're amazing as always.

Thank you so much.

Thank you for. We have a busy day ahead of.

Us, but taking the time here, it's my pleasure. Thank you so much.

And all of you watching, wish you the best. And if someone in your life that you feel could benefit from watching this, please share it and wish you the very best. Thank you.

Okay.

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