How a NARCISSIST is CREATED? The Roots Explained Feat. Dr. Ramani
Dr. Ramani explains how narcissism develops from childhood neglect, inconsistency, trauma, or overindulgence. She describes how narcissists need constant supply, use gaslighting to control people, and often struggle with addiction. The practical advice: don't engage, set boundaries, and prioritize your own healing.
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All the work that I. It's interesting that I built one of the, you know, this wonderful connection network of people when I grew up feeling so disconnected and feeling abandonment and abuse and sexual and physical and everything in between. And there's a guy years ago that he's a 70 year old gay man. I never met him in person, but I talked with him on the phone and he gave me a definition of intimacy. And he spends his time sponsoring people with sexual addictions.
And.
And he said intimacy is a mutual exploration of a shared safe place. Abuse is anything that takes away the safe place. And addictions are what we do to make ourselves feel good when we don't have a safe place. And I thought about that a lot, saying, okay, you know, because I never felt safe when I was growing up. Especially if you had any sort of abuse. If you don't hear the words I love you, if you don't have anyone to go to for help if you're getting abused, it's very scary. And. And with narcissists or like even psychopaths who you're saying. So that definition I just gave. Addictions are what we do to make ourselves feel good when we don't have a safe place. Is narcissism a coping mechanism or is it. How would you describe it in terms of. Because I don't know if they feel safe or unsafe or how did it. Because I'd like to almost ask you about connection and intimacy from the experience of the narcissist.
In some ways it's. And again and Tucker made also I had ate lunch with him. That's why he's featuring this conversation. But a lot of it does go back to early experience. Narcissism is made. And it's made by circumstances.
People are not born this way.
Okay.
It's made by circumstances, it's made by circumstance. Now, may a child be born with a temperament that makes them more likely to become narcissistic? Yes, they tend to be a little bit intense. Probably like the colicky baby can become a colicky adult kind of thing. There is sort of an intensity. They're not an easygoing sort of a kid by any stretch. And some people are.
They're just more easygoing.
Even if terrible things happen to them. I would say 85%, 80% of my clinical population has experienced sexual trauma before the age of 16. It's pretty normative, men and women. And so obviously that does something to boundaries and trust. However, the bulk of them go through the world. I mean they're wonderful Parents, I mean, it's not like this is a guarantee.
That you, that you've all.
But this person's all but doomed to a terrible future, they've found their way through it. What they tend to do is be much more self denigrating. But for many narcissistic individuals, there are early histories characterized by neglect, frank trauma, inconsistency, chaos. But there are also early histories characterized by being spoiled, like too much material indulgence without feeding the emotional needs of the child. Listen, a person of means may want to be able to give their kids a really nice bike and a trip to Disney World and all that, but if at the same time that child is also not being given a rich emotional vocabulary, an opportunity to share feelings in an appropriate way. And parents that are present psychologically more often than not, when you have that indulgence, the overindulgence of the material with the under indulgence of the emotional, that's actually the classical way we create narcissism. And then again, and then the people who experience some trauma, neglect. Neglect is a parent who may actually put them in a beautiful home with lots of things and the best schools, but the parents are nowhere to be found. This is a huge problem in Los Angeles. I see it on my kids peers. I'm like these, listen, I worked from the day my oldest Maya was six weeks old forward. It was required. I did the best I could. But I am shocked at people who are like, we're going off for three weeks and we're leaving you with top flight nannies. Well, Fast forward that 35 years and they're in my office and they're dealing with that trauma of abandonment. They were left with the best caregivers possible. They just weren't their parents. And so this is not something that is just a child that's abused and neglected because they're impoverished. This happens across the spectrum. And so I think that that narrative often fuels narcissism. Why the world isn't safe. So that lack of safety fuels insecurity, that insecurity, that unempathic lashing out. And in this way, my goal, and it's a tough one to create, is to say, please be compassionate to narcissistic people because they've often had a rough start. And then get the hell out of dodge and don't engage them because you can't win at that game. So I'm saying you do not need to be cruel. You do not need to call them out in a cruel way. You don't have to do A smear campaign, but you're not going to make this work. So it's. You're almost telling two stories at the same because the narcissist is saying, why doesn't anyone want anything to do with me? I'm like, because you're not a nice person to them, you know, and I understand why you're not a nice person, but that's the balancing act here.
People that are here or will be watching this, that are in a relationship with a narcissist currently or are tethered to one because of exes or relatives or things like that. What suggestion? I mean, you cover this in the book, but I'd love to have you touch on some of this because I think you just really understand it.
Well, I say things like, I hate to say it, and it's going to sound very dismissive. Don't engage with them. A lot of people, once you start engaging, you find yourself defending yourself. You find yourself over explaining things. There's a classical behavior in narcissistic personality styles called gaslighting. And when a person gaslights you, they deny your reality. The most classical manifestation of gaslighting is when somebody says, you're being too sensitive or that never happened. You know you're being gaslighted when you start recording conversations with your phone surreptitiously in your pocket for no other reason that you can play it back later and say, I'm not crazy. They really did say that. The number of times people in these relationships will put the text up and say, you see, you said it. To which the narcissist will say, you're a vengeful bitch. You know that? So they'll still turn your evidentiary base into a scathing analysis of your character.
Okay, you know what's interesting? I have an individual that I'm dealing with, currently dealing with in my life that I've recorded conversations for that exact reason. Because I know that if it wasn't, this person would say a reality that's not at all reality, and I needed evidence of that.
So. So the gaslighting sets this tone in a relationship where you feel chronically invalidated, chronically devalued, and frankly, sometimes downright crazy. You know, again, to the point where you're recording conversations and your house looks like the Pentagon for all the cameras, and they don't care about the reality. Because I will tell you, I've worked with couples, one narcissist, one not in my office. And they will show video. You say, you didn't do this and they'll play the video. Clearly they said it. And then the narcissist gets up and walks out of the office, you see? So they're not going to engage in it. So the engagement is where people get hurt. So I tell people, don't engage. You're saying, how the heck are you supposed to talk to someone if I don't engage with them? So let's say he and I are sharing custody of a child and he's narcissistic. I'm not going to get into. How's work going? How you doing? Like five o'. Clock. I'll be there to get the kids. We're done. We're good. He's got all the information he needs.
Okay.
What's wrong with you? Why aren't you talking to me more? Come on, say, I know you know. We're good. We have our pickup time. Now. Your heart's racing as this is happening. This is taking a physiological toll on you. If you're dealing with a narcissist, sorry, but you know, but you know, it's the.
He's a lawyer.
He kind of says, yeah, right, exactly.
So I'm not engaging him. Then the other mistake people do is they start explaining, no, no, what really happened was this.
But you misheard.
And then I'm like, oh, man, you're screwed now. Like, you're not coming out of this one.
Right.
Maybe there's a reason why sometimes narcissists are drawn to professions where arguing works, like being a lawyer. Because they argue better than anyone, because they're able to lift a lot of the emotion out of situations, because they don't bring it in. So where we're often arguing from heart, they're arguing from logic, which anyone who's ever been in a relationship knows that that doesn't work. Okay, so it's. Though I would say don't engage, don't defend, don't explain and don't personalize. This is them. This is their madness. Leave it housed in them. So while they're like this, you just stay. I always say. In fact, somebody, one of my clients put it beautifully. He said, I have a cone of protection I now have. So he literally, like, I imagine a cone on me and it keeps me perfectly still. So while they're going off, I'm completely serene. And I really say, find that inner serenity, meditate. Find some sort of mantra you can use while you're dealing with them. You're not even listening to them now.
They're ah.
And you're like, you know what? It's time to go. It was so good to see you. And you use calm voice. I call it a hostage negotiator voice. You know, it's very easy to inflame them. So you really have to keep evenly toned. And so there's that piece of it, too. And also, don't make excuses for them. The reason so many narcissistic individuals get so deep into our hearts and get so deep into our careers is we give them a second chance, a fifth chance, a 55th chance. We make excuses. He had a tough start in life. I say those are two separate conversations. He had a tough start in life, and he's treating you like shit.
Right.
Okay. You don't need to be mean to him. He did have a tough start in life. He is treating you like shit. You need to get out of this relationship.
Yeah.
So it's about self preservation.
Exactly. It's about self preservation.
The beauty of this, though, is, man, I've become so more aware of noticing this behavior in subtle ways that I never did before. It's almost like when you get really stung by one, then you start to.
See, you know, you do start to see it. And you also start to become, especially if you've really been hurt, you know, anyone who's been through a relationship or a really bad business dealing. And I've had it happen in three interesting spaces. In the family space, in a professional space. And it turned my career around permanently. Like, it was. Like it was literally where my career should have gone. Left and ended up going right, much to my toll. And then it ended up exactly where I wanted it, and then once in a personal space. And I think that what does happen, though, is what you have to be able to endure.
And I don't know if you've run.
Into this, Jo, is that once you become the person who identifies that narcissistic individual, whether as colleague, whether as potential partner, friend, whatever, the first play is to distance and to distance quickly. You know, I hate to say it, and I've been criticized for this, but I'm just going to put it out there. I called narcissism the secondhand smoke of mental illness. Because you're just being near them is probably going to make you sick over time. And there was a recent situation I'd been in professionally. I'm part of an advisory board that convenes regularly in Washington, D.C. around mental health issues. There was one guy. I mean, like, if narcissism had a smell, it was coming off this guy. Very arrogant. Lots of swagger. People who are charming and charismatic terrify me. Like, when I meet a charismatic person, I'm like, I gotta go. You know, all my friends felt like when I was trying to date, they were kind of like, he's charismatic. I'm like, oh, no, absolutely not.
And so I was looking, let's find.
Someone awkward who's sitting in the corner, doesn't have friends. That's my guy.
And so.
But you know what got interesting is.
That you should be a spokesperson for every non charismatic person that wants to date.
Oh, absolutely. Because the non charismatic people are where the magic happens. I mean, they're so sweet and kind and loving.
I think I understood what you said, that psychopath and sociopath, there may be a CNS or a genetic component with psychopath and then a environmentally created with sociopath. Do I understand that you're saying there may be. With narcissism, there could be a neuroplastic rewiring. Is it something that we can reverse?
You mean in terms of treatment?
Yep.
And have you seen any connection with sensory integration disorder and narcissistic tendencies?
That's a great question. So to your first point, if you look at the research by Elsa Roningstam, and she's at Harvard Medical School, she has written some really neat, really great things, theoretical and empirically based stuff on narcissism. The biggest problem with narcissism research is it's based on very small sample sizes. So the generalizability of the findings is not so great because there's not a lot of good treatment work done. Because they don't come into treatment, they're 80% more likely to drop out of treatment. So it's hard to do that work. She does believe, though, that there's a potential with a narcissistic individual of what we call a corrective emotional experience, that they have an experience that engages in exactly the kind of rewiring you're talking about. Now here's where my role in this whole world gets interesting. Because I work more with survivors of narcissistic abuse than I work with the actual narcissist. A lot of people out there with stars in their eyes, with Mr. Charisma that they met at the cocktail party, want to believe that they're going to be the corrective emotional experience. The odds of you being the corrective emotional experience is. Is the odds of you winning your sort of your March Madness ticket. Like, it's not gonna happen. You're not gonna win in Vegas. You're not gonna be the Corrective emotional experience. The corrective emotional experience is actually something we as therapists can watch unfold. But even during my lunch period Today, I spent 15 minutes talking a narcissist off the ledge because he's 48, the girlfriend's 22, and he can't get his head around why she doesn't like spending time with him. And I was like, give you a couple reasons, but I'm sorry you're hurt, you know, and so it's that entire, you know, I don't think. And this is the fourth time I've watched him through this rodeo with four different inappropriately young women. And so he's not getting it now. I hate to say it, but sadly sometimes the corrective emotional experience can be a tragedy. It can be losing someone significant to you. We don't want to program that for. Well, once your kid dies, I'm sure everything's going to turn around for you. Like, we don't want that as an intervention. So it's the question of, does that happen every so often the stars line up. Going to prison can sometimes be that corrective emotional experience. I'd say for about 2 out of 10 narcissists that go to jail or prison, it ends up being a wake up call. Like, I don't want to do that again. And I've let everyone down. So I think that in a very small subset, because of the lack of self reflective capacity in narcissists, because they don't have the ability, empathy is equal parts out and in. The out part is me caring. Joe, are you okay? Did you eat enough lunch? Is he bored right now? Like, I'm worried about Joe. I'm worried about all of you. But the in part is, am I reflecting on my contribution to this? Like, am I aware of how I'm reacting? Am I aware of my stuff? They can't do either. They can't do the out, they can't do the in. But so there is some possibility for that. In terms of sex, sensory integration stuff, we could even argue this and extend it to people on the spectrum, right? There is a lot of argument, like people say to me, what's the difference between autism spectrum and narcissism? There's a big difference, okay? People on the spectrum have a processing issue. They cannot uptake and process social interaction and other environmental stimuli the same way because of a central nervous system issue that we're still trying to fully unravel. That said, in a child or an adult with autism spectrum, when the empathic miss is pointed out to them. They do not become defensive, they do not become angry. They very quickly said, I say I didn't know and sometimes will express very authentic emotion at the thought that they may have hurt someone. We see this all through the age span and immediately that's when we know. Because I have a lot of folks who come in, women who will say, I don't know if my husband's on the spectrum, I don't know if he's narcissistic. So we'll try some stuff. I'll give him questions to try with him the next week and we're pretty much able to unplug it. So that processing issue means that they can integrate new information and say, I'm so sorry I hurt you, I just didn't know. And so that's. And I think that would also go to other sensory integration experience experiences.
Yeah, that would be my guess.
That's what I'm wondering about because I've seen that the retraining of sensory integration disorder. But it's a minimum, kind of a two year. You're really on the spectrum. And that survival mentality is number one. It's a two year rewiring process. Before you kind of go, okay, we can hang out together a little.
And it's the same in narcissism. Any published research shows people have been in therapy for 18 months to 24 months. Good luck finding an insurer that's going to pay for that and that. So you've got almost two years of multi time a week therapy and still only a subset of those clients improve. No one's got that kind of access. So on a population level, I'm not clear on how we're going to improve this.
Hey, I hope you're enjoying this video and I want to let you know that I have a new book that's come out and if you'd like to get it absolutely free, there's a link below the description. Or you can wait till the end of this video or you can Simply go to joe'sfreebook.com and you can get a copy there. What's the link between narcissism and addiction?
Oh, so strong. Think about it. This is a person at the core of it. Narcissism is about emptiness. I always say it's like a bucket with holes in the bottom. No matter how much water, no matter how much validation you put in it, it's always coming. There's not enough times I can tell you you're wonderful and, and you're beautiful and you're smart and you're successful, there's not enough anything to keep it full, right? So when someone feels empty, what do they do? They fill the hole. And there ain't nothing that fills that hole like drugs. And so it is so common. And here's what I find when I work with.
Or behaviors. Right.
Or behaviors. And I find this when I work with rehab centers, addiction centers. And in fact, Tim, you'll be able to speak to this, too, is I work with families who now are having a family member go into rehab, right? And their hope is, well, now they're clean, they're sober, they're home. This is gonna be great. Everything's gonna be great. And they come home, and they're still an asshole. I'm like, oh, yeah, they couldn't get rid of the narcissism, sweetie. Now he's just not using coke anymore. Now he's a grumpy narcissist because he's not using coke anymore. So it's a. You know, I think that the two go together. And what happens is we do know that narcissistic traits make maintaining sobriety a thousand times more difficult. I would imagine. Again, I will defer to you that people who are narcissistic are much more likely to relapse because the first time they come up against a disappointment, it feels like the bottom has fallen out. Right? So the easiest way to get back, you know, to get that soothing, is to turn to drugs and alcohol. So I really do think that they're highly, highly, highly correlated. I mean, I would say well over 50% of the narcissistic personalities I've worked with in therapy had comorbid or past addictions.
Wow. So in your latest book, you know, one of the. One of the emphasis and focuses on helping the person heal. Not so much emphasis on the narcissist itself, Although the first beginning part lays the foundation and the groundwork. So for people that are out there, let's play a game. How do you spot a narcissist in a crowd? You know?
You know, it's funny. That's. This is the question everyone grapples with. How quickly can I find them? What are the red flags? How can I pick them out in a crowd? I mean, listen, it's a probability game, right? It's like picking a horse in a race. You're going to. If you pick the odds on favorite, it's probably a good bet, but they still may not win the race in a crowd. If somebody said, all right, I'll give you 10 bucks. Tell me who's most likely the most narcissistic person here. I'm probably going to gravitate to either the most charming, charismatic, attention seeking person in the room or the most aggrieved, angry person in the room. Those are my two bets, right? They're different people. Sometimes that aggrieved angry person isn't as socially skilled. They might be sort of victimized and sullen and petulant and er, whereas that grandiose, charismatic, charming person is smooth as can be and as pulling old, you know, pulling chairs out for ladies to sit at the table, like all the manners and all of that. So you'll see these two different kinds of portrayals, but those are the two people I'd be looking for in a room. Unfortunately, we're drawn to that charming, charismatic person.
Yeah, no, totally, totally. So do narcissists usually develop relationships with non narcissists or do they often find each other together?
So you find you're asking such an interesting question and I've really been doing a deeper dive into this issue, so I'm so glad you asked it. One of the things that people struggle with is they say, am I a narcissist magnet? And one thing I tell everyone who's ever gotten into a narcissistic relationship, I say to them, you know why the narcissist chose you? Not because you're the broken gazelle, not because you're damaged, not because you look like an easy mark. They chose you cause you were attractive. They chose you because you're good supply and whatever. For every narcissist supplies a little different, right? Narcissistic folks are heat seeking status missiles. They want status. Right now status means different things to different people. For some people it's looks and appearance. For another person it might be money. For another person it might be position. For another person it might be contacts. It depends on everyone, right? And for some people it might be that they're absolutely beautiful but like very malleable, right? But that supply is going to be different. So they chose you because you're a fantastic supply. And a narcissistic person isn't going to choose someone who makes them look bad. So I always say folks, if they chose you, you got it going on. So let's not get into this place of you're somehow broken. And so for that reason a narcissistic person could end up with any number of people in a relationship, including another narcissistic person. Because another narcissistic person could Be quite charming and charismatic and grandiose and attractive themselves. And you can imagine that's an extraordinarily volatile relationship. And we're talking a lot about intimate relationships in a way, in sort of how we're framing it. This can happen in families, this can happen in business relationships. You and I have talked about that a lot. You can imagine if you're in business and you're looking for someone to be like this great business partner, someone who's really visionary and charming and energetic and charismatic, that might be who you're drawn to. And then before you know it, the whole business goes poof. Because. Because you've got this narcissistic business partner.
Okay, so that's really great. I want to have you go elaborate a little more on narcissistic supply because in your book you just define because that's what they want. Like, what is that actually mean? And let me frame it from this standpoint. So we all go into relationships because we want something, right? I always say this all the time. You know, it's like, what do people want? We're going to want to eat lunch later, right? Everybody wants something. Something. People are coming to this event today because they want to do trauma healing. So everyone wants something. People go into relationships because they want companionship, maybe they want intimacy, they want sex, they want whatever. So the narcissist, what are they actually seeking? Because I think it's. You really help people understand what they're looking for. And if they don't get it, they can get really ugly, they can get very violent, they can destroy their. Your life.
Right. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna push back on you a little. Joe here is that. That everyone's wanting something in a relationship. Because I also think that even more primal to us is an attachment seeking element. And that's less of a want, but a drive and a need. Right. Human beings are wired for attachment. And when a human being is not attachment oriented, it's actually a bit pathologic. Right. We're a tribal species. We live in small social groups. We need each other. We have babies that take a long time to get to maturity. So that means you need multiple people on the job. Right. So evolutionarily, we are attachment seeking creatures. Right. So it means that most people are seeking attachment, connection, reciprocity, mutuality, compassion. They want to, you know, there's caring and being cared for. Right?
Right.
The narcissistic person though, isn't coming at that from a different angle. Not saying the narcissistic people don't want attachment, though. They tend to be more anxiously and avoidantly attached. So they, they're either not. There's a lack of capacity for intimacy or there's like a lot of a push, pull in, out, in, out kind of thing. But that supply seeking is almost a higher order motivation for them, right? Because that feeds that insecurity. There's an empty beast in them that's always needing more, more and more and more. And so that supply is something that not only makes the transaction of the relationship make sense to them. Right? Because a relationship isn't for that, just that attachment need for them. It's. They're getting something from this. Right. Whatever getting something means. And it's usually some form of social status, right? But supply gets stale, right? At some point that very attractive partner gets older and is not as attractive, or they're not a novelty anymore. And narcissistic folks are very reward sensitive. That's why we see a high overlap with narcissism and addiction. That same kind of dopaminergic orientation of reward, reward, reward, whatever that looks like. Gambling, drugs, alcohol, sex, pill, pick your, pick your poison, shopping. You know, there is also that kind of compulsion we see. So that supply is really kind of an offset to the insecurity and the shame. And it bolsters those external defenses like entitlement that allows the narcissistic person to sort of feel anodyne, in control and able to dominate. So that it's a constant sort of feeding the energy to do that.
Gotcha.
Does that make sense?
Totally. No. And the other flip side, which I didn't finish finish on like we all want something. I, I tend to look at it from the standpoint of if you want something from somebody, make sure that your give is equal to or greater. So you're not a taker. And narcissists seem to be the ultimate takers. Yeah, they just take like every, it's not, it's not a given. If it is a give. It's, it's like fake.
Well, it's a performative give.
At that point, the give is still also a source of supply. That's where we talk about communal narcissism. Those narcissistic folks, folks who it's, it's there, they sort of trick people. Because unlike the grandiose narcissist who's very extroverted and sort of look at me and sort of shiny and handsome and all this other stuff, or the vulnerable narcissist who plays victim and everyone gives them Supply by trying to like, save them or give them supply in some other way. The communal narcissist gets their supply by playing at humanitarian and rescuer. And I'm the great savior. And so that's why at the most extreme, extreme end of the communal continuum, we would see a cult leader, but at the more mild ends, we'd see the person who seems to be organizing things to save every vulnerable group in the world. But behind closed doors, they're screaming at their spouse, they're screaming at their staff. So they're a terrible person. But to the world they seem like a humanitarian. You know what I'm talking about?
I absolutely. You're the. When I first, you first shared that term with me about, I don't know, four years ago, we were talking and won't name names. Very thin famous person. Men and women that give to charity let the whole world know they're doing it. Social media, posts, television, you name it. And they're donating to everything, they're contributing everything. But absolutely, it's all a status seeking. Look at me, I'm so wonderful, I'm so great.
And Joe, the wellness world is also fraught with this too. I mean, I have worked with many people in yoga communities, things like that. They'll say I went in with my heart open, wanting to learn from this teacher, from this healer. And by the time they were done in this space, I went into vulnerable. A very narcissistic person was at the top of that food chain and advantaging people and sort of is quite extortionate. It was humiliating. And that to me is heartbreaking because it's hard enough for a person to get to vulnerability, but then to get pulled into a community where once again they're caught in a toxic transaction, that. That's communal narcissism.
Totally.
What is the. I've got a few questions I've written down I wanted to ask you. So what's the single most surprising thing narcissists do that people never expect until it's too late?
I think the thing that throws people off about narcissistic folks is they're looking for almost a psychopathic lack of empathy. Does that make sense? So we keep hearing lack of empathy, lack of empathy. So they're expecting to meet someone cold and remote and distant who doesn't cry at movies and who doesn't like, like babies and doesn't like puppies and all of that stuff. Right. So when they meet a narcissistic person who actually can seem quite gregarious, and warm and cry at the movie and be emotional at times. That's what throws people off. And I think this is why we've got to get away from this idea of the narcissistic person having like a forked tongue and, you know, like horns on their. On their head. That's not that people fall in love with these folks because there's a moment in time, in many moments in time when they can show up with what feels like empathy, but it's often what we call cognitive empathy. Narcissistic people understand this idea of empathy. They understand emotion. They could say, I understand why you feel that way. It feels very analytic. But that's not emotional empathy, which is somebody's entire demeanor changing. Somebody not screaming at you on a bad day because it's inconvenient. Right. But that cognitive empathy, I have to say, is the thing that throws a lot of people off because they'll see someone who looks and it like, looks empathic. And so they're saying, well, maybe they're not narcissistic because they were really nice to my aunt when she came to visit or they really cried at that person's funeral. They like, they seem to show this emotion. And I think that the key is to sort of understand this idea of cognitive empathy, but also consistency and how they show up on your bad days.
Hey, I hope you're enjoying this video. And I want to let you know that I have a new book that's come out and if you'd like to get it absolutely free, there's a link below in the description. Or you can wait till the end of this video or you can Simply go to joesfreebook.com and you can get a copy there. Gotcha. No, Great, Great. So why do so many people stay emotionally trauma bonded even when they know the narcissist is toxic?
So there's.
There's a couple ways I want to go with this is. One is the con. The. The idea of trauma bonding is really based on a. What feels like almost like a physiologically unbreakable connection you have with someone that's created by that alternation between good and bad or not so bad and better or whatever it may be, but it's an alternation, right. If we think of it in its most primal way. For how a trauma bonded relationship is created for a child, the child needs the caregiver. There's no alternative here. So the child has to go through all of these mental accommodations to maintain that relationship. Narratives they create blaming themselves, anything to make it so they can maintain that relationship. And there's a lot of justifications, there's a lot of excuses. Excuses. There's a lot of almost metaphysical thinking about the relationship to keep it in place. Because the idea of losing that relationship for a child is a complete attachment fracture that the child simply couldn't tolerate and survive. Now fast forward to adulthood where we don't have those same survival needs, but still that alternation with someone we feel attached to, connected to, that we love because there are some good days. Again, that pattern of rationalization and justification and having the same arguments and never quite resolving them and making excuses for the relationship. And one of the things that also happens is people become isolated in these relationships so they don't get that sort of alternate point of view, right? And that's, there's something almost deliberate about that. People won't be able to articulate in an adult manner what they like about this person. Again, I always call it my trauma bond hack when I'm working with a client is they'll say I love them, I love them. It's clearly a dysfunctional relationship. I'll say, what do you love about them? And the client will always pause and they'll say okay, Dr. Ramani, I, well, okay, so I love, I can't put it into work. That's when I know I'm like, this is trauma bonding. Because when you really love someone and it's healthy, you'll say, this is my friend, my companion. I love being with them. I look forward to see, seeing them. I, we share so much like they're, they're articulating a coherent model of the relationship versus a trauma bonded relationship. There's no coherent schema because it's all based on this sort of physiological panic model. Does that make sense? Totally. And so the idea, and the person will say the idea of ending this relationship fills them with panic. Even as they intellectually at a, at almost like a, a cerebral cortex level. They know the, this is not a healthy relationship. Like, I know they cheat on me, I know they lie. I know, I know. But what's happening is much more, it's much more primal, right? It's much more an attachment oriented where there is a sense of panic, of what if I'm always alone? What if they find someone better? What if it's me? That's not enough. And that panicky system is what sort of kicks in for someone. And undoing that is no small task therapeutically. I, A lot of folks really benefit from trauma oriented work. And where did this where did the schema, where did this model come from?
Define schema.
So a schema is a mental model, Right? And we can think of this in terms of again, what I was using the term a coherent narrative. A coherent narrative is being able to look at something holistically. Great example would be a childhood, right? A childhood where a person could say, I was abused by one parent or I was abandoned by the parent. And since then I, I keep looking for people who reject me, but when a kind person comes along, I reject them. The person is able to see everything in a very coherent, consistent, stable way. So the more stable the schema, usually the healthier it is because it almost becomes like a little mental gps. I know how to navigate the situation. And schemas are driven by experience, they're driven by temperament, they're driven by culture, and they're driven by personality. Right? So, and having that model, when it's coherent and healthy, then a person's also even able to say, oh, I see what I'm doing here in this relationship. But I often see in the more trauma bonded relationships. There's no coherence in that schema, in that narrative.
No. Super helpful. So how, how do we set ourselves up for being able to develop healthy, connected relationships? Because you've heard this thousand times where someone's like, why they keep picking this bad person? What's wrong with me? Like, there's something their pickers messed up. And maybe it is, maybe the. And when I say it, I mean they've been in damaging relationships and they're scared, they're gunshot, they don't know what to do. They're, you know, they've, they've been burned, they don't want to get hurt again. So therefore they don't play to win. They play not to lose. And if you play not to lose, you, you tend to lose.
So I want, I want to connect this back to our trauma bond. Our trauma bond question too. When we think of this narcissistic relationships, we often make the knee jerk assumption that this is a trauma bonded relationship. Not necessarily so too. There are plenty of people in narcissistic relationships who aren't trauma bonded but can't get out. So it's very, and I work with a lot of folks who are in narcissistic relationships and not trauma bonded. They're like, if this fool walked out the door tomorrow, as long as I could keep my kids or keep the house, I would be fine. So there's external structures, practical issues, minor children, finances, family court, a whole Host of other things, family traditions, whatever it may be. So those folks are like, I see this 100% clearly, but there's no clear path out for me right now. To your point about how do we talk with people and create these healthier models of relationships? First of all, we need to create healthier models of relationships. We don't talk to people about this. Right. For all the things we talk about, we don't really have those straight up informed by psychological science conversations of what makes a healthy relationship. And I keep using these terms, mutuality, reciprocity, respect, compassion, and above all else, Jo, psychological safety. That a person feels like they can come into a relationship and show up as they are falling farts and all, and not feel that they are going to be rejected on that. And, and I say that jokingly, but I always say like there's the fart test in the relationship that first time you pass gas in front of someone, you're like, oh my God. I'm like, what did you, did you really think you were going to be married to someone in 50 years and not pass gas in front of them? And, and I'm like, and look, they're still here. Maybe they'll, they'll laugh a little. And I'm like, if they get up and leave because you had beans for.
Dinner, I don't know that this was the keeper.
But I think that that kind of model of I have to be perfect, I have to show up as this idealized version of myself. I can't be authentic. And I do think it takes us to that conversation about authenticity. Another really overused word these days. But that has so much power in creating healthy relationships because that requires us, even before the relationship to do a deep dive in who am I? What do I stand for? How do I show up? And people are afraid of that because they were told, maybe in childhood I, I show up as my true self. I'm going to be raged at, I'm going to be told I'm selfish, I'm going to be told I'm ungrateful. They go into a relationship, the first time they show up as a true self, they're rejected. And so that can really squelch that authentic self. Right? But that's what a healthy relationship is, that capacity to feel like you're in something that's not only psychologically safe, but balanced. We are very much though still, and I think social media made this worse in the era of the church, the check mark relationship, you know, if for I think we still have very gendered anticipations around that. Whether it's around money or appearance or youth or whatever it may be, intelligence, anything. And instead of these very, very sorts of healthy barometers. And I don't know about you, Joe, but I have a handful of friends who are in fantastic long term relationships and marriages. And when I look at all of their relationships, and these are people you can, of every age, ethnicity. These are straight couples, These are queer couples. These are couples with money, without money. And you feel that you're in the presence of two people who get each other, who. Who have each other's backs. It doesn't feel lovey dovey. I don't feel like I'm in some sort of, you know, sort of fairy tale. I feel like I'm with two people where it's just like a big cozy blanket and I just want to stay in their house forever. And that, and that kind of alchemy. There was often two healthy people that entered that relationship.
That's really great. Yeah. And that. That feels really good. And there are. And I'll tell you, I think it's important to have models.
Yeah.
Of relationships. Because if everyone you hang around with is completely dysfunctional and talking about each other, you know, it's just. Yeah. It doesn't help you at all. We need. And look, I think in a lot of ways you are providing models. We have one interview that we did that has over a million views and I have at least 100 times when someone has sent me a message because I have genius recovery. So I'm talking to people that are struggling with addiction all the time. It's just kind of weird how my own recovery has led to all these other things I do. And I will utilize your interviews. I will say you need to watch this. And so it's not just an interview. It's literally a toolkit. It's helping people work through their lives. So what is if you could wave a magic wand. There's so much you've learned. You've had so many of these conversations. You ever get sick of talking about this stuff?
I don't. Because, Joe, one of the beauties of being sort of a former academic is you never stop the work. Like it's all your head's in the journal articles. You're always reading the new science again. Even here we are today, day at this beautiful seminar on trauma. I get to learn from Gabor all day. I get to learn from Kimberly all day. I get to learn from folks like you about addiction. So it's. It's not Just getting your head in the clouds with all the minutiae of the science, but talking to people who've walked the walk. And so every day as a teacher and it's like this gigantic sculpture. You're always adding more clay to it. You're always flexible and willing to sort of see things in a new way. So I never get tired of it because I have the real privilege of always getting, getting to learn, pushing myself to learn, always reading books and always talking to survivors.
Yeah, yeah. And so, so you've learned so much that, like, what have you discovered over the last year or so that you're like, oh, this is really valuable, that I think people need to be aware of this. They need to. I'd love to have you share some of those things because you're, you're always on the cutting edge of all of this. I mean, you, you, you in. I mean, I really admire just how much work and, and what you deal with is pretty heavy. I mean, you deal with some very difficult situations that I don't know very many people that could unravel. Some of the stuff that you, you, you, you work with.
Well, I really appreciate that, but again, it feels like a real privilege. You know, I've lived experience in all of this, so I, I, I get it, I feel it. And I know how important it is for people to feel seen and not shamed. I think that the piece that, in this year that has really been illuminating for me and it's such, it's such a, I was reading in all these sort of comments, complex models. But the simple part of it is anyone who's in a narcissistic relationship, I don't care how mild or severe it is, it is a relational trauma and it is a betrayal trauma. And the only way to treat relational trauma is in relationship that we, that you are now, basically you are fixing that broken schema of a relationship. And even whether it's in the therapeutic room where you're teaching someone, people show up, people care that this can be a healthy space, that the therapist can show up authentically. And then it's about helping that person heal in community. And we have a monthly membership and what I've seen now, we've had it for over two years and that you need that much time to sort of see changes and trend. What's been remarkable, watching that healing community, is watching people who all came in, not everyone didn't come at the same time. Like some people come, drop out, whatever, but it's is watching people evolve from feeling that they couldn't even get out of bed to becoming the healers themselves. They healed relationally. You see this in the addiction community all the time. We heal relationally. Right. That idea that somebody can go off with a book or a podcast and do this themselves is never going to happen. Or even. I still don't even think therapy is sufficient. There has to be community. We heal in community. And I think that helping people understand that, that they're not alone. And I have, you know, listen, I have worked with folks who've been in 30, 40, 50 year marriages with narcissistic folks, right? So that raised kids in, at the whole nine yards. And they said, you know what, Dr. Ramany? If I had five years, eight years into this marriage, even before we had kids, one or two years in, had I read this, I would have gotten out. There was just simply no framework. We had no language. Right. And so, and that applies in the world of addiction. Think of how long there was no language. We didn't understand this as a disease. We didn't understand how people heal. We didn't understand the intersection of trauma and addiction. Right. When those, each of those layers of the onion got peeled away, we have had more compassionate conversations. People are getting better treatment. While narcissism is about 20 years behind that right now in terms of understanding how that shows up in relationships. And now that people are getting these schemas, they're willing to clock these patterns earlier. And that plus the relational understanding, I think we're actually going to start seeing people being more discerning in their relationships, maybe sort of capture these things as patterns and start disengaging earlier, giving themselves even permission, not just in intimate relationships, but even in workplace relationships, family relationships, saying, no, this, this isn't okay. This is, this is one sided. This is asymmetric. This doesn't make sense. So, but it, I think the needle's moving, but as all arcs are, they move quite slow, slowly. And so those are the things I've really learned in the last year. So I really am focusing on the community piece of this.
Yeah, no, so, so critical. And I, I always go back to the saying, you're sick of your secrets. And so having people to talk to, silent battles, the hardest battles to fight, to try to do this on your own is so difficult. So I absolutely agree. I mean, I, I would have never had recovery with addiction without.
I don't think anyone would.
Yeah, yeah. And I always say to people, you know, like, even when they talk about 12 steps, steps, it's not an attendance program? No, it's a step program. You go, you go meet other people, you do the steps, that sort of thing. I've read comments where I'm so curious because I've never asked you this. Where someone, probably a narcissist on the other side, where you know, you are really describing someone, they'll say like, she's a narcissist. They call you and all the, yeah. So how do, like what, what, what is, what is that about? How do you interpret it?
I, I mean, listen, if somebody sees themselves in the content, first of all, I applaud them for willing to do that. I think that's an incredibly vulnerable thing to do. However, that vulnerability activated the shame, activated the rage. And they're gonna. Joe, I'm gonna be very, I'm, I'm, I am willing to be completely self effacing in that they see a person who makes her living putting herself in a public forum to teach people about this. And in some level it's paying the bills. Right. You know, I'll give them that. Right. And, and many. I get that and it hurts my feelings. I'll be very, I'm very. I do not read my comments. I would be in a psychiatric hospital if I read my comments. I'm still a very, very sort of. I have my, like, I understand my own neurotic personality structure and my fearfulness and all the things. Right. And so I really would dig in and my own therapy say, do I have empathy? And she's like, why, why are we having this conversation? You have deep empathy, you know, and so it's like I'm thinking I will even stand in the line when I don't need to stand in line because I don't want anyone to think like she's ever taking advantage. So I know I'm not those. I'm very. Because entitlement is the, the, the, the, the sort of the trunk of the tree. And so I don't, I'm, I never. And so I'm pretty confident that I'm not. In fact, I think if I was narcissistic, my business would have been so much better and so much bigger. But I, but you do come against that. And I do think that more than anything is that people are being made uncomfortable about this conversation and so it's activating shame in them. I also think that it's the nature of online spaces and so people are on the attack. I'm sure you get all this stuff all the time. And so any of us in this space Too.
Yeah.
No, you just, like, just hearing you say that makes me realize, why the heck are we so sensitive? Where I could read, like, a book review where, you know, there's, like, one. There was one that I read recently that was negative review. And right before and right after is like, this is the best book I've ever read. And I'm like, how is it, you know, but why do I get so bothered by that? Why do we get so. But why are we so sensitive to it and how do we not be bothered by it? Or maybe that's part of just being a really cool human. Like, yeah, you're sensitive. You know, you. You don't want people to call you something that you don't. That you're not, or you don't feel that you're not. I mean, I, you know, how. I guess. How do we become less bothered by it?
I don't know that we do become less bothered by. In fact, maybe we don't. I don't know that we do. I, I think that part of the burden of empathy is that that also would. Would sensitize us to that kind of discourse, and it will. And, and I'm going to be frank with you. I think that anyone who's had a history of trauma and anyone who's had. Or a history of. Of these kinds of narcissistic, betraying relationships, there is such, again, a core schema of, what's wrong with me? What did I do wrong? Do I deserve this? Am I the bad one? Right. Since that's such a central schema, that kind of commentary is going to bounce off of that. And instead of like, I'm absolutely not. That is that there's a. There's a plausibility to it. And then it causes this sort of grappling. And I don't think grappling is ever a bad thing.
That.
That creates the core of accountability, which is another core element of a healthy relationship. But I don't need to be sitting there all day. And I'm very much. I. Again, one of the things, the way I opened up this book was a story of me as a child, you know, with a purple dress and not willing to, you know, sort of put myself out there more than anything. Cause I didn't want to be made fun of that was the driver that day is I did not want people to see me and make fun of me. And even to this day, I still think, what the hell are you doing? But, but I, I. Because there was no way to do this anonymously, right? I could have tried. And then people like, what the heck is this? So I, I do, in academia, in some ways you can be very anonymous. So for decades of my career, you really are. You sort of. In fact, the way our, our work is reviewed in academia is it's done, it is done anonymously. They, they remove our names from the manuscripts. So there's no bias in the peer review process. So there's almost a built in anonymity in the scholarly process. And so if people say it, they say it. And I'm thinking if they. Again, I'm not reading the comments, so I'm not seeing it. But, but if they, if it did lead the person to grapple with, well, maybe I am the narcissistic one. Maybe then the content was worth it.
Yeah, well, look, I mean for every, for every person that ever says that there are. You have so many, I mean literally you have millions of glowing comments about you. If you were to look at every video that is been put out. And the thing I admire about you is not, you're not like this marketing person trying to get views and follows or get, I mean, you know, because I've known you long enough to. You're just out there trying to help people and.
Yeah, yeah. And it's funny because I know a lot of folks who they, they algorithmically generate content. They see which videos do you know well or what content does well and they shape it. And for me actually Joe, because I am such a reader and a listener and talking to other people or if you will, my content is very much driven by something that hit me hard. And I'm thinking this hit me hard, it might hit someone else harder. Maybe it'll mean one more person is understood. So listen, if I can keep the lights on and the kids in college, I'm fine.
No, and you truly are a person that's in the transformation business, not the transaction business.
Yeah, no, definitely in the transformation business. Trying at least.
I've not told you I recently acquired the website transformation.com.
Good for you.
Know what I'm going to do with it it yet.
Well, you'll do something.
I've wanted it for 20 years. It's directed to genius recovery at the moment and I've been. But since I've gotten that, I got it from a friend who's had it for a long time. Refused to even sell it to like Oprah and stuff. Didn't want anything weird done with it. And so I acquired this site and I've been thinking about the term transformation. Like what does that actually mean? And that's really kind of what you help people do. How would you define divine transformation? Like, what does that even mean? Because there's, you know, there could be the. The fluffy spiritual ways that we can look at it, but, you know, there's. What does that mean?
So to me, transformation is not like a. A wholesale 180, but it's actually an orientation of a person back to themselves and seeing themselves accurately. That's what transformation is to me.
So is it possible to heal from narcissistic abuse without constantly focusing on the narcissist? And if so, how do you do that?
The only way to heal from narcissistic abuse is to not focus on the narcissist. Right? The understanding the narcissist pieces to me is like the module one. It's like the first grade of it, all, right? You need to understand what you're up against. You need. That helps inform the dynamics and the. Really the. It's not you of it all, but from there on in, it's all you, you. It's about you. That was the thing that happened that tripped you up, that shape your identity, that basically the only way the relationship works is if we quit ourselves and become what they want us to become. So that's why the COVID of the book is always these layers, right? Because it's really meant to be an excavation. You're going back and finding the little shards of pottery that made you.
There's so many more questions I could ask you. We could. We could do this for a long time. What did. What did I not ask you that I should have.
I'm going to ask you a question. How about we do it that way?
Love it, right?
Because you work in the addiction space. And this is. This is something. Interestingly, in the last year and a half, I've been asked to talk to you about what are your feelings about what we find in the science about the overlaps between narcissism and addiction?
Well, I think we find people whose dents match our dents. And so if we heal ourselves, the relationships that are no longer expanding or contracting us tend to go away. I approach everything from is this person, is this situation, is this feeling expanding me, or is it contracting me? When I was in active addiction, I was not responding to life, meaning not being responsible. Because what is responsibility? It's. It's responding with ability. And so I was reacting to life all the time. And if you are around a reactive narcissist because my. My view of narcissists is they're setting off bombs, they leave a lot of shot constantly. Right. And so to remove some games in life, the only way you win is you don't play. And you have to get out of these games that you're not winning. And like Gabor Mate, who we're going to be with here in a few minutes, you know, he has that, that term. The question is not why the addiction, but why the pain? So I view addiction from, from the lens of. It is a solution. It's not a very good solution. It's a solution, but if you're lonely, if you're hurting, if you're anxiety ridden, if you're depressed, you're going to look for a way to scratch the itch. And the narcissistic supply is very similar. You know, like, why was Al Anon created? Or, you know, codependence. Anonymous. Right. Who? I, you know, I know Ken Richardson, who's created, you know, coda, because you become addicted to the person, to the, to the crazy making. And so I think the link between addiction and narcissism in a lot of ways, if you feel broken, if you feel hurt, it's, it's, it's, it's kind of like cotton candy doesn't have real nutrition, but it gives you that hit.
It does.
And it's numbing.
There's a narcissistic hit. And so I don't know if I'm answering the question very well. The, the way that I look at it, though, is like, man, it's kind of like the whole purpose of your latest book, it's not you, is to heal yourself. And if you heal yourself, you can, you can't fully remove yourself oftentimes from it, but you can definitely put up better boundaries. And I think, I believe everyone can find peace and healing if they stick with it long enough. And it may not have to always be super long. I mean, you can, you know, every passing moment is another chance to turn it all around. Yeah, I think, I think that was from the really wacky movie Vanilla sky years ago. So I think we could have that. But ultimately it's, it's heal yourself and remove yourself from those relationships and be aware of it. Last thing I'll say is that I never noticed. I ignored red flags and you helped me a lot with this. I ignored a lot of red flags because I always, I, I felt I'm an empathetic person. Let's give people a chance, right?
Yep.
And. But they were there. But what I didn't notice at all with the yellow flags didn't even occur to me. And so as I build up my awareness, as I built up my awareness, I've gotten a lot healthier relationships. And guess what? I have the longest stretch of addiction recovery that I've ever had. Right.
And so, yeah, and then last question, because this is Genius Network, and it's for entrepreneurs. My last question to you is, do you feel a person can be a successful entrepreneur without narcissism?
Absolutely. I mean, I've asked you many times, am I a narcissist? Like, are there parts of me that are, quote unquote, narcissistic, that sort of thing? And yes, not only do I think you. Well, it depends how you define success. Because if we look at financial success, there's tons of very financially successful narcissists and world leaders right now that are, in my opinion, awful humans, causing not only damage emotionally to people, but murder. I mean, they're literally hurting people that are very wealthy, that have high stat. And I think that's the hardest thing for people that are good, caring people to see. Why is this? Why do I work so hard? I raise kids, I raise my family. I do so much work. And you see this out here getting rewarded. But is that really success? You know, success is, to me is, you know, you, like you said, if you're in a home with a healthy relationship, you just want to stay there all day. It, like, hugs you. You know, to be able to go to bed and feel like, you know, I can hug myself, I can love myself, because I do. I didn't leave. I didn't go and hurt people all day. To me, I don't have a bunch of people hating me because of my behavior. I'm a contributor. I mean, to me, that is far more successful than anything else.
I totally agree. And I think one of the big challenges in entrepreneurship is because it is. I mean, there is. I admire entrepreneurs. Some entrepreneurs scare me. I consider myself an entrepreneur. I've learned so much from you, is that I think we often conflate that the success. Success, the success, the competitiveness, the capacity to market, all of that requires that narcissism. I firmly believe it doesn't. But I do think in some ways it might slow a person down to a growth that's more organic. Right, right. Because they're not just doing anything and everything to get to the top and saying, well, I'll clean up the messes later. So I think to be an ethical, heartfelt, compassionate entrepreneur is not only possible. I see it Happen all the time. And it's an extraordinary thing to witness. It may not be as sassy in Forbes 500e, but it certainly can be something that changes the world. The way, like I always say, planting an orchard always takes a minute, but it's going to yield a lot of fruit for a long time.
Love that saying. Love that. And look, there's a lot of successful people that live in prisons with golden bars.
Absolutely.
And you've seen it. You see it all the time. And unfortunately, you know, I always say this to young people. If I would have known that being successful was this much work, I would have stuck with being a loser.
Right.
And I say it jokingly because, you know, you have no idea how. I mean, if people went behind the scenes, the. I mean, I know that's one of the reasons I say complimentary things about you. You have worked your ass off. I mean, you wake up every day and you go to battle with things that most people won't. And that's admirable.
It is battle. Yeah, yeah. For both you and I. Yeah, totally.
But you know what? That is such meaningful stuff. It makes a difference. And with all these narcissists that have a bunch of people that hate them, that leave a bunch of scorched earth, that don't encourage people, I mean, I will like, if there's any karma, if there's any sort of thing, which I believe there is, and there's. There's a source of, of ethical energy. I think life gives to the giver and takes from the taker. It may not happen right away, you may not see it, but if you, you know, you go long term, you know, be nice to the people you meet on the way up.
They're going to be the.
The same people you meet on the way down. And I've seen a lot of narcissists that have had, you know, lots of, you know, external validation, success. And they would. But they hit a point, they end up in prison, they end up with cancer, they end up with all kinds of sort of thing. And. Yeah, and so final thing, how so? You're always a domino. I mean, people will hear our conversations. It will. It will trigger something where. What do you give out some resources that you have for people that are looking for help, where they can go, that would be most helpful because you are. You are the one.
Well, I mean, you always go to my website, drromini.com and you'll sort of find the clearinghouse of everything. We've got stuff ranging from free to stuff that's sort of a, you know, mild monthly cost. So we have YouTube, which every single day there's new content. We have the new Dr. Romany network that's powered by the Fireside platform, which is sort of an interactive network, which is a new thing we're doing, which has actually been really quite fascinating and wonderful. We have a monthly membership for people who are healing from narcissistic relationships. I have multiple books on the topic, taking narcissism and healing from these relationships from a bunch of different angles. If you're a therapist, I have a 36 hour asynchronous training program that culminates in a certification in working with clients experiencing narcissistic abuse. And we even have cohort models where you can come together and not only do, do the asynchronous training, but also have an opportunity to meet in groups so we can talk about cases and that sort of thing. So there's all sorts of things we have going on and we sort of try, try to share those pearls of wisdom as often as we can. But there's a lot out there that people can learn from what I'm doing, what we're doing. Yeah.
Awesome. When I first had dinner with Gabor Mate in 2015, he said this really interesting comment to me. So Gabor knew about me being my childhood and about, you know, some of the stuff that happened to me. And we're just in this restaurant in Vancouver and we're just sitting there talking. And this first time I met him in person, we had spoken over the phone, but this is in 2015, and he's a, you know, small sort of, you know, he's not a big guy and he's a, you know, Hungarian doctor in his 70s. And he just talking in this busy restaurant table for two of us surrounded by people, and he says, I know the cause of cancer. And then he continues to talk. I'm like, hold on, back up. You just said you know the cause of cancer? He's like, yeah. I go, all cancer. Children with cancer, Animals with bone cancer. He's like, yeah, all cancer. I'm like, okay, what's the cause of cancer? And he's like, suppression, repression. I'm like, what do you mean? He said, well, if I started pouring water on your head right now and yelling at you, I could change the physiology of your whole body. And he goes, so, you know, everything would change. He goes, so if I started pouring water on your head and yelling at you right now, what would happen? I go, what do you mean? He Goes, well, your face would get flesh, your adrenaline would surge, your heart rate would go up, all the cells in your body would change. And he goes, so if I did start pouring water on your head and yelling at you right now, what are some of the things, things that you could do? I go, he's like, how would you react if I started pouring water on your head and yelling at you? So I'm sitting there thinking about this, and I go, well, I could walk away. He goes, yeah, you could run away. And he goes, what else could you do? I said, tell you to fuck off. He said, yeah, you could fight back. And he goes, what else could you do? And I'm sitting there thinking, what are my options? I already went through those two. I go, I guess sit here while you pour water on my head and yell at me. And he goes, well, no, you could ask for help. And I, right at that moment, I was like, wow, I think I just heard something pretty profound. And he said, so what happens when you're in a situation, usually as a child, where you can't run away, you can't fight back, you can't ask for help? There's two ways that humans deal with it. They either develop an addiction as a coping mechanism or. Or they develop an autoimmune condition or something like cancer. And he goes, I learned that a lot before I wrote the book when the body says no. And so I shared that with you, and I believe there's something. Now, if I believe cancer and many diseases dis ease, I don't think the body's built to have diseases. There's genetic things. There's a lot of things. Of course, there are certain things, though, that people say you can't do anything about. This would be one of them. You got a 2% chance. Well, what does that mean? And what is the cause? And so I think it's either mental or physical toxins, and sometimes it's trauma. And when you're a kid and you can't run away, you can't fight back, you can't ask for help. When you were 13 years old, and probably way before then, you. You already had this built in trauma, so you had atmospheric conditions. But as we become an adult, we actually can ask for help. But the thing for me is I never even realized it was so conditioned to me that, oh, that was even an option. I'm in a busy restaurant surrounded by people, and it never even entered my consciousness that I could ask someone, hey, there's someone right here yelling at me, please, someone help Me, I just, you know, and I realized when I was an addict and when I had so much physical pain in my body and all kinds of stuff. My mother, you know, women that are abused and molested, there's been some studies that they have six times increase of getting cancer. My mother became a nun. She left the convent because she had gotten ill. I don't know what happened to her. But my father, he lost the love of his life. You know, you look at Louise Hayes published Hay House, you know, grief. Lungs have a lot to do with grief. Why'd my father get lung cancer while he smoked? But why did he smoke? You know, there's a lot of stuff. So I believe that, you know, not only can you be completely cured from this, I believe you can help a lot of people too, which is why I wanted you to come here and tell this story. Because you have been taking on, I mean, going through this journey with you. You reached out to people and you were very hesitant to going to your group gathering of titans, which you created, and all this and the outpouring of love. And no matter what happens, you have opened yourself up in ways that you've never done before in your life. You've transformed your health. You have connections that never would have happened. So in a lot of ways, I look at this as a gift for you. You're 100% right. And that is his name, Gabor, that changed my life. I spent about three or four weeks praying and forgiving my mom for what she did. And just getting that release, I think.
Was the start of the healing.
When? I don't know how long ago it was two years ago, maybe three years ago, when you had told me about a meditation process you had gone through. And so I ended up signing up for something that you had recommended and going through it. When did you start meditating?
I did a fair bit of meditation. I don't remember on the first time I tried. Like, I'm thinking maybe 12, 15 years ago when I really started kind of getting into this. And then I. For some time I meditated quite a lot. It was like for a few years, it was a couple of hours every day. And, you know, before that, like, I tried and then I would succeed and whatnot. I remember at one conference there were some fancy monks speaking. I'm like, buddy, like, you know, you're talking about this meditation that looks awesome, but, you know, I'm unable to find half an hour every day or whatever you recommend. And he's like, hey, if you cannot find half an hour why don't you start with one minute? I'm like, oh, that's a cool idea. I've always been a big fan of baby steps, that kind of concept that really helped me in so many areas of my life. So I started with 1 minute and then eventually became 10 minutes and 15 minutes and 30 minutes and eventually it became 2 hours for quite a bit. So I meditated quite a lot. And also at some point I did this really awesome course, finders course, which was really about taking people within four months through a lot of different types of meditation because we are humans and we like to play and explore. So we developed so many, we invented so many ways to do that. So, so that was really fascinating to kind of look at that. So I did that and then eventually a couple years ago, year and a half ago, I think it stopped really.
Okay, so do you meditate?
No.
I mean, maybe I do, but I don't think of it as meditation. No, it's more like, you know, life and meditation, they stop being different activities.
Well, you know what, so we're really talking about things that are related to the nervous system, system and to the functioning of the body and the movement of it. So certainly, you know, I, I've always liked the line, the issues are in the tissues. And so if you don't involve yourself in some sort of physicality and it's just purely mental, there's a big part of human expression that you're not experiencing. And I, I even think of addiction and work and art and music as expression where humans are just expressing creatures and we're either, you know, sitting still or we're moving around and you know, driven people that will be like type A or however they're labeled. And I even have a genius network member and a friend named Dr. Doug Brackman who wrote the book Driven. And he talks about how, you know, 5 to 10% of humans.
I've read the book. Yeah.
Oh yes, it's fascinating book. And he teaches people how to meditate by doing open eyed meditation while shooting rifles. Right. And so, and he talks about the driven entrepreneur, the driven individual, where it's a genetic mutation, the D2 and D4 gene, which I don't even fully understand, even though I've interviewed him on it. I still don't, you know, I think he's got two PhDs, he's a smart dude, quirky as hell. And you know, there's the driveness. So there's this nervous system thing. So when you're meditating for a couple hours a Day.
Yeah.
You're going to interact in the world completely differently than if you're not doing that. So you stopped if did anything change or did you get to a point to where you kind of. Do you feel better? Do you feel worse? Do you not even think of it that way?
Yeah, I don't even think that way. Right. Like, you know, everything constantly changes.
Yeah.
You know, here's you meditating, here's you drinking more coffee. Here is your drinking wine. And at some point I stopped drinking alcohol and I didn't have a single drop for a few years. And then. And now I can have a glass here, glass there, but it's no longer. It's no longer sugar that takes me down certain path. Like, you know, trying to have more and more like computer games. Right. Can be an addiction. And I'm not really into shooter games, but there's this puzzle game, Candy Crush. Right. So well designed. Like, you know, when I play it, I can see. Oh, wow. So well designed when as they throw different stuff at you and they trying to get you addicted. And I used to sometimes play a lot. A lot, a lot.
I have never played Candy Crush in my entire life. I don't even understand it. But that's.
Yeah, I mean, it's just a puzzle game. Right. The way it works, it kind of distracts your mind from stuff in a way. It can be. I read some interesting research some years ago that can be helpful to process some emotional stuff. And I remember I took my mom for her 75 years a while ago to Rome. And he didn't want to go because her mother, my grandmother, was pretty sick, you know, close to death. But I'm like, mom, she's been that way for a while. Let me take you for your birthday. We went to Rome and having a good time there. And then my grandmother dies while we're there and my mom is in deep dark space. And I remember that research. I'm like, hey, mom, let me show you this game, Candy Crush. And you know, and I pointed her to Candy Crush and took her a little while to figure it out. And she started playing. And at least it seemed to me that made her suffering easier for her to process. And to this day she still sometimes plays and whatnot. And I mean, it still was difficult. Felt like just losing your mother, that's hard, right? And then her being away from that. We went back within a few days, but yeah. So addictions and games and everything else, this is just our natural human reactions to handle what we trying to handle. Whatever the Current reality is.
Yeah. Void of luck. What is your criteria of what you would consider a person worth betting on?
I think. Well, first of all, I think.
A.
Serial entrepreneur is always a safe bet. I mean, if you're in the space and you feel good about them and they've done this a time or two or three and had exits and they've proven that they know how to start and build and sell businesses, your wrist comes way down. Everybody here knows that. But I also just, I mean we. Not to get weird or woo woo. But it's just a spidey sense, right? You just get around people and you're like. And you, by the way, the rest of your team, the rest of the room could be like, this is the person, this is the guy or the gal. Like we have to. And you're in that room, you're like, there's something fucked up about this person. I just don't, I don't know what it is. I don't want to go have coffee with them after. I don't. And that I think you really have to listen to that.
I probably would have.
And by the way, I've been outvoted on my team on one deal in particular which has held true. And it's hard in a team. I mean, you can't stand if you're talking about a business plan in a space where you people could make money and tam and all these things that people talk about, it's hard to stand up and God just, I don't know, I got a weird vibe off them. I don't think we should do it. Like, that's hard to say, but it's real.
Yeah.
You're like, I don't know. I wouldn't do it. Like, if the guy just called me out of the blue and it was my personal money, the answer is flat out no. Yeah, but that's hard to sell sometimes.
I agree. We have a friend, Patrick, who, you know, he's talking about yellow Florida, where I would oftentimes ignore red flags. And I'd pay the price of ignoring red flags because bad shit would happen. But I never even noticed yellow flags until I got screwed enough times or made some. I was just with people that, yeah, there was just a gut feeling that I ignored. And truly I would inebriate those feelings. I would do. You know, I would think there was something wrong with me. And now today I very much pay attention. You know, Dan saw Sullivan has. You know, we've had lots of conversations about this. Only align yourself with people that you know, aligned with you and try to feel that sort of alignment. And Dan also, just to bring up Dan, he takes entrepreneurs through a questioning process of who do you want to be a hero to? And in your life, you were a hero to millions of kids, millions of people. I don't even know what you think about that world word hero, but who do you want to be a hero to? Of course, you probably would say your children and stuff, but is there a group or a cause or. I mean, you did live strong because you had cancer yourself. Do you decide your business activities based on products and services in certain categories because of what you want to see happen in the world where you think of it? I want to be a hero to these people because.
Well, I don't think of it that way, but I do. I mean, we invest in health and wellness and health care. So I think it's. I mean, it's not green tech or it's, you know, but it is. I mean, if part of your thesis is to prolong life and enrich life, then that's a pretty good thing.
Yeah.
The word hero is not no famous athlete. I mean, we have. Ask Danica. I mean, think about that. Danica. I mean, no chick is driven around an oval or all these other things with a bunch of dudes ever, except for you.
Right?
So there's a bunch of young girls out there. She's my hero. That must make you feel uncomfortable. Yeah.
We'll throw her a mic if we need to.
Yeah.
What do you mean by uncomfortable?
Well, I mean, if somebody's like, oh, you're my hero, that just feels.
Does it feel like there's a responsibility there?
Yeah.
Or something to do?
Yeah.
No.
No.
I think I, like, I'm proud that they would look up to me. And if anyone ever says they want to be like me, I tell them that you should want to be better than me if you're gonna.
I'm borrow that.
But, I mean, I think it's happening because of what I've done. I don't have to do anything. Anything to get that it's been. It's achieved through what's happened. So there's really nothing to do. Right. So I. I guess I don't feel uncomfortable. I will say I. I have, like, in my career because I would sometimes do more edgy things, so I'd have to kind of look at that and what that meant. But I did feel this underlying, like, I'd like parents to be proud of whatever it is that I. I've done. So that they will show it to them, you know, so I always had to really stand behind whatever I did. And, you know, I had fairly large comfort zones for everything, so. But yeah, I mean, that's probably the only thing.
Yeah.
It's interesting because both of you are in your categories, two of the top in the world. It's interesting. Just different experiences.
Do you feel uncomfortable? I'm assuming you do not.
I mean, it just. I don't know if it's. I don't take it when somebody. If somebody. They don't believe me, they don't say, like, back in the. And maybe that was part of the problem. I mean, I. Obviously. 15 years ago, I heard that hourly.
Yeah, right.
You're like, wow, this is really weird. Not many people come up to me and say that anymore.
But was the discomfort linked to the lying and the dishonesty?
Maybe back. Perhaps.
I haven't.
That's fair, though. That's totally fair.
Yeah. That's totally fair.
Yeah.
But look, I think you asked me about before that you were starting to ask about, you know, what it is that, you know, how you. Not necessarily how you move forward, but. Or what, you know better than. Than me. But look, I think my favorite band in the world is the War on Drugs. I don't know if anybody likes the War on Drugs. It's a great band. You can listen to them later. But they have a line. So Adam is the singer. He writes all the lyrics. And the lyrics are, some would say very dark, but they're deep. But he has a line in one song where he gets through the whole song and he gets to the final. He says, be the writer of your own story. We talked about tattoos earlier. Like, I'm. That I'm close. Like that should be. I think everybody's goal in life is to write your. Be the writer of your. What does that mean?
Right.
Writing your own story means that's how you like every step you take, every breath, every. Every second of every day you're writing your story. We've agreed to be together and be part of us writing our own story. And so that's super important for me. That's sort of my anthem in a way.
No, I like it. I mean, yeah, people wake up and they write a comedy, a tragedy, a love story, a drama.
Yeah. And by the way. And people mess up all the time. And then you go, wow, that was not a good chapter in the book.
Yeah.
You know, I heard Dan say this. He has a line where he's like, forgiveness is giving up the Hope that one day you're gonna have a better past. And it's. It's an interesting, you know, because you're not gonna have a better past. It's. You ever struggle with addiction or had anyone really close to you that struggle with addiction?
Look, I've gone through. I've gone through periods. I mean, I grew up a white trash kid in Plano, Texas. Like, we drank from the age of 50, 15, like, even being an athlete didn't matter. I've tried to really dial that part back. I haven't been perfect. Haven't had a drink in a month, which is a long time for me. And I love that. Like, I. Look, I think you. I'm 52 years old, right? Drinking at 52, for example, is not the same as drinking at 15. I think we can all agree. Like, I'm, like, watching. Why doesn't it feel like that when you wake up? Like, it just doesn't. So it's. And I want to live a long time. I really do. And that thing I told y' all earlier about realizing that 10 years ago feels like yesterday I was like, oh, my God, like, I'm 52, so if tomorrow I'm going to be 62, like, this shit's just, you know, the roll of toilet paper just gets smaller and smaller and so nothing else. You know, I would love to have had less hangovers in my life. But working on that and in terms of other people around, look, my great. I mentioned that a lot of my rivals had died. There's one who didn't die. Jan Ulrich, who was my biggest rival. He's a German guy who I never talked to, and we would shake hands and I didn't dislike him, and I didn't even have a relationship. I just knew that I was scared of him. He inspired me, and I wanted to really. My number one job was to beat him. And he got destroyed. He was the biggest athlete in Germany. He got exposed and he took this other path and he got destroyed. And when. I mean off the rails, I mean, really off the rails. And I've never had the confidence, but, you know, crystal meth, cocaine. I mean, serious addiction. And everybody gave up on Jan, except for a few close friends. And then finally his close friend called me and said, we need you to come over. I didn't even know. I didn't even know the guy. I said, can you come over?
I said, what.
What's going on? They said, he's.
He's.
Anybody that's tried to help him, he's pushed him out and we can't help him. And I said, I'll be there tomorrow. So I left the next day, and I went to sort of this Mickey Mouse rehab that he was in in Switzerland. It was so bad. Like, he could walk freely and he was clearly still fucked up. I'm like, what kind? Then I went and met. I went and met with the head of the rehab. I'm like, I've never been to rehab, but it just doesn't feel like the way it's supposed to be. Like, this guy's, like, walking around and clearly fucked up. And so we got him sort of sober. I started to do some event, and then I'm establishing this relationship with this. He's very simple person, Jan. He wakes up every day is like, how far are we right today? What's for lunch? I'm like, I don't. I mean, I don't know, but I'm thinking about a zillion other things, and you care about shit like that. And we got him basically sober, and then he fell off again. And then two Christmases ago, I get the same call. He is in Cuba, just completely off the rails. Was flying back. It's like four days before Christmas. And he. For whatever reason, his connection was in Cancun. The pilot took him off the plane because he was. You could just tell, you know, just swollen. Pilot says, this guy can't fly. So they give him his bags and. And say, get out of here. So he's walking around Cancun, not the greatest place in the world, and what does he do? Goes straight to the bar, starts getting in fights, you know. Next thing you know, he's in jail. Next thing you know, he's in the hospital. I get the same call. Like, we're not. But his friends say, this time he's on my land. You know, he's in North America. They said, we're not leaving because it's Christmas. I said, okay, well, I'll leave tomorrow morning, so fly down there and get him. I mean, it was. It's been this time we got him in a real rehab, and he's been totally sober for two years. He's. He's such a great part of my life.
Wow. Yeah.
His name's Jan Ulrich. You can look him up. He's. He was such. Such a sweetheart. Yeah. There you go.
Well, yeah, he's.
Yeah.
So this is. Yeah, I was in Marco Pontani's Pass. So Pantani was the great Italian climber. He died of a cocaine overdose in a seedy hotel room in Milan, Italy. He was, he was also the biggest athlete in Italy. Bigger than any soccer player, bigger than anybody. But yeah, this. If, if you see some of the. He would often send me pictures and videos of him and his, like, strung out phase. If you see that face right there versus the shit that I have. I mean, it's, it's. This guy was. It was terrible, but it, they just did a four part documentary on him, Amazon did really, that just got released in Germany that will eventually, I think be released in the U.S. but yeah, I mean, he, his friends said, when they first called me that, I said, well, why do you. I didn't question it. I mean, I was going to. Lee was like, but, but like, why me?
Yeah.
And they said, you're the only guy that's ever scared him. By the way, he scared me. I was terrified of this guy. He was so talented. Like, he was. I in fact believe he was way more talented than me. So he's, he scared me. But that motivated me and I knew, I knew I was like, every day I was like, what's yon doing? What's yon doing? He was that good. And when they said, you're the only guy that ever scared him, I said, all right, I'll leave in the morning.
Wow.
So it's been a fantastic bond. He's just, again, very simple, you know, he doesn't. He's got three kids. Like, he's just, he deserves to be saved. And this is what I hate about. And maybe it's the media, right? And we all did the same things, right? Pantania is dead, Jimenez is dead, Vanderbrook is dead, Gamon is dead, Jan is alive, I'm alive. We all had second in commands and third in commands and fourth commands that were all in the same cesspool, right? We can't do anything, right. If Jan and I want to go to the Tour de France, they do everything they can to prevent us from showing up. But second in command, third in command, fourth in command, they're on the podium. I'm like, how does that work? Are you kidding me? So not only did you basically almost kill this guy and try to kill me, but I was like, no, you're not killing me, but you almost killed a guy and his second is on the podium, like, shaking hands and kissing babies. That's not right. But, you know, a guy like Jan, my number one goal for Jan is that he writes his own story and he's got a up story and. But he gets a chance to keep writing and editing this story.
That is awesome.
Yeah, you are.
I mean, that's like atmospheric condition changing right there. That's being a domino. So.
Yeah.
Awesome.
I love that.
When he. Funny story. When I finally made it to Cancun, he was in this awful hospital.
Right?
You can imagine. So in Mexico, you have public. Public hospitals and. You have private hospitals. He was in a public hospital. That's bad. And he had gotten really violent with the nurses, and so they knocked him out and they had him restrained from both wrists, ankles and chest with a catheter. So he was asleep. And I go to this doctor, I'm like, what are you doing? I said, wake him up. And they're like, no, no, no, no, we can't wake him up. I said, wake him up. And they're like, okay, but you're going to be in there alone. I was like, no problem. I'll be in the. So he starts to wake up and he's just like, whoa. And he realizes it's me. That, you know, he's fucked up. He's like, let's. He's like, get me out of here. Let's go get some hookers and some whiskey and all that.
I'm like.
And it's like two days before. At this point, it's two days before Christmas. I said, jan, no, we're not doing that. It's Christmas time. But he was so out of it. So out of it.
You know what people don't understand about that too, is it's like my friend Gabor Mate says, the question is not why the addiction, but why the pain. People don't understand the pain. The coke, the hookers, the whatever. It's just trying to soothe. You're just trying to soothe this incredible mental pain.
In English. And I didn't know a lot of his story, but that Amazon actually sent me the four parter with subtitles, and I knew 10% of it. I knew that the media destroyed him. I knew that he was the biggest athlete in Germany. I knew that he was originally from East Germany. I didn't know 90% of the story. Right. You talk about trauma and a man who's not equipped at all to handle trauma and didn't know how to ask for help or get help for his trauma. I'll show you a picture when we get off here of me and him in the bed in Mexico. You won't believe what this guy looked like.
Wow.
I can share it with you and you can put it up. It's with the restraints. It was fucking. I'm like, wow, this is where we are.
Yeah.
By the way, too. That's also. Like, you talked about your buddy coming in and out of consciousness. Like, it's not all bad to be being rock bottom is. As long as you know you're at rock bottom, you're like, it's only up from here. The moment you say it can only get better, that's pretty cool. Like, can't get any worse.
Yeah. Okay. I hope you found that video awesome and useful. So if you want to get a free copy of my book, I want you to click here. And if you want to watch some more videos that will be useful and awesome, click here. Go ahead. You're over here.
Do it now.
Come on.
Thank you.
Watch them.
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