NEGOTIATION Mastery: Why Chris Voss Says “NO” is the Key to Success - URGENT Must-Watch!

Way back when Covey told us, seek first, understand, then be understood. Let's change that and say seek first to make the other side feel understood. Just start experimenting with this stuff in small stakes conversations. You will get results.

I've gotten to know Chris also. He's just an awesome guy, incredibly bright, incredibly helpful, very, very sharp. And we're going to not only talk about negotiation, but come Chris is, I think, probably the number one best selling negotiation author maybe of all time. He's sold well over a million copies of Never Split the Difference, which is a testament to the value of this book and how much value people get out of it. So it is with great pleasure that we welcome to our live I Love Marketing meetup, our good friend, Mr. Chris Voss.

So Chris, thanks brother. I appreciate that. I appreciate all the kind words. It's very good to be here. Good group, a group I'm really happy to be with.

I just want to ask you what's your definition of negotiation? Just the term negotiation. And what are the fundamentals of negotiation that every entrepreneur should learn?

Well, negotiation, really, it's great collaboration. I mean in negotiating you should be gathering information and influence and use them to create a great collaborative. Collaboration is a key because if it's not a collaborative outcome, you know, you got long term failure coming at you. You know, our co author of Never Split the Difference, Tall Roz, it's his contention. First of all, Tal's a brilliant dude. Any business book that you run across that Tal's name is on, pick it up, it's going to be a good read. He's a business book writer, genius. But he said that he thinks, you.

Know.

Ancestrally, and I know that's not exactly the right word, but that we're hardwired to collaborate. The only ones of our ancestors, the cavemen that survived that you know, were hardwired into from genetics are the ones that collaborated. So we're hardwired to collaborate as human beings in great negotiations about a great collaboration. I agree.

You know, that's really. I talk a lot about that, about the reason we refer people is because of that same thing that we're playing. The cooperation game is this game that's gotten us to be the most successful species in the history of the universe. Right. That that in order for it to work, we have to be able to collaborate. Somebody does the, goes out and does the hunting. We have to be able to trust that the people on the back at the village are going to hold down the. There's so much about that I hadn't thought about it that way. But collaboration is the same kind of thing as cooperation.

Yeah, I like that thought a lot because I'm gonna draw a real fine point, a subtle point, on two words. The difference between cooperation and collaboration. Good. Collaboration is both people wading in and being. You know, there's a difference between being assertive and being aggressive. I need you to assert your best interests. Otherwise you're relying on me to read your mind about what's best for you. So for everybody out there, you've got to be assertive. You don't have to be an asshole when you do it. You know, the trick is to be assertive without being a jerk. Now, cooperation is sometimes a little more passive. And I want you to be collaborative. I want you to wade in, I don't want you to leave it to my mind reading to know what's best for you. And sometimes if we lean too far in the direction of cooperation, we find ourselves in a resentful position, and that's not good long term. So, you know, I want all of you to step up and politely let people know what you need. Because otherwise you're, you're relying on them to read your mind, and that decreases your percentage chances of success.

What are your thoughts on mastery? I mean, you even have a master class. You have trainings. I mean, what does it, what does it take for someone to, to get to that level?

You know, it's a repetition. Small stakes practice for high stakes results. Be willing to make mistakes and then learn, learn from your mistakes. Now that seems obvious, but first of all, most people over the age of 25 don't want to make mistakes. You know, you're horrified, you're embarrassed. You know, you find mistakes embarrassing. And so that's the first problem. I mean, that's a real problem. And then the second thing is then learning from the mistakes. You know, it's, it's practice makes perfect, but perfect practice makes perfect. Learn from your mistakes and be willing to get better. Like we, you know, we get internally, we got sort of a game that we play on getting sweet upgrades in hotels for free. It's a little bit of a contest. My son Brandon, prides himself on always getting a better room in a hotel than me. And I'm paying the bills. But, you know, he taught us how he does it. And the last time I was in a hotel and I happened to be in Dallas for a football game just a couple of weeks ago, I did it badly and I got the sweet upgrade. And afterwards, as I was going through it, in my mind, I was like, ah, I made a mistake. I mean, you know, I got to do this better. But it was a learning, you know, it was a repeat experience for me. Practice and, you know, I was willing to make a mistake and then. And relearn, get back into practice. Because negotiation is a perishable skill. It's not riding a bike. If you're bragging about a negotiation that you did a long time ago, then you're out of practice because you should have a recent victory or not quite a victory that you could talk about and get better from. So it takes practice.

Where is negotiation not utilized in life?

Yeah, you know, I don't know where it's not utilized. I mean, when are you not trying to get smarter? When are you not trying to gather information? When are you not trying to have influence in a good way? Again, this was with this collaborative thing that I referred to earlier about, I mean, using your powers for good and not evil. If you collaborate, if you want to hurt people, it's going to catch up with you. But, you know, if I'm only information gathering, maybe, and I don't want to have influence on the outcome, you know, maybe that's it. But negotiation is involved in everything. Negotiation. One of my favorite stories is negotiation involved when you order at Starbucks. It's in everything. And the reason why it's involved at Starbucks, which. Which most people say it's not, had a guy tell me that a Starbucks employee told him that he gave decaf to people that were mean to him.

Sometimes you're in negotiation, you don't even.

Know you're negotiating exactly when you don't know you're in.

So what's the most stressful negotiation you've ever been in? And how did you. How did you deal with it?

Talking to my sister earlier today. You know, the ones we all struggle with, the closer somebody is to us, the harder it is for us because it just becomes harder and harder to get out of our own way. Anytime that if I can step back at all, then I can get myself under control. And usually the way I step back is, you know, I'll vary my tone of voice. There's a couple different ways to step back to get yourself out of a reactive judgmental mode, get yourself out of. Out of, you know, an angry mode. You know, they say, give a speech when you're angry, It'll be the greatest speech you ever regret. You know, when your buttons are getting punched, you're actually dumber, and you're also simultaneously more Self righteous. So it's not emotions that are bad, it's negative emotions. And anytime you can, you can take a step back in any way, take a deep breath. I mean, you know, we're seeing all this stuff from traditional thought that now is being backed up with scientific data. Taking a deep breath is a way to step back. You know, that book Breathe is out there. I was thinking actually earlier today, you know, because I got a little heated up in conversation with my sister and. But then I happened, you know, it was time for me to. I took cold shower. I take cold showers for health reasons. I instantly. My mental state changed, Cool off, literally, physically, you know. So I've, you know, I varied quite a bit from your original question. What was the most stressful negotiation you were in? Anytime that I don't have a sounding board, if I'm in it by myself and I don't have somebody on my side as a sounding board, then I'm not in as good a position. I've had some kidnappings that were ugly. You're not going to bat a thousand. You're just not. Anybody wants to give you a negotiation strategy that says works every time they're lying to you. I told somebody in a conversation recently, hostage negotiators had a 93% success rate, which is an enviable success rate for any sales or business person. 93% success. But that meant we shot the bad guy 7% of the time. So engage in skills that increase your batting averages and don't expect yourself to be perfect.

So let me ask you this, Chris. So what's the most valuable negotiation technique or strategy that you've ever learned and why is it so valuable? Because you know a lot of them.

You know, one of the simplest ones. All right, let's go with simplest. Mirroring. Repeating the last three words of what someone just said.

The last three words.

Yeah, you know the last three words. Just repeat the. Nice job, Dean. I know what you're doing to me.

How dare you sell for it right.

Away without even, how dare you put me on me. Nice. No, if you can master that skill. Because a lot of times you just need some time to think. You know, everybody says, boy, you know, now that I'm thinking about it, I know what I wish you would have said. And now that I'm thinking about it, now I see what I missed. That mirror technique. The last three words buys you that time in a moment without the other side realizing that's what you're doing. Because they're going to go on. They're going to talk some more. They're going to add a lot in one of. You know, one of the crazy things about the mirror technique is it's a preferred move of the people that possess both a high IQ and a high eq. Now, I cannot explain why that is the case. I can speculate on it. I think if they are high in both areas, they love the simplicity of it and the lack of effort and the data loving people. So they love how little they have to do to get a bunch of information out of the other side. But that's probably the single most valuable thing that you could learn.

Well, so we've talked about this one before, but it's always so important because you've shifted, you've helped so many people just with this one. So why is the word no more important than yes? And if you could give an example.

Wow. Wow. Yeah. Okay. So the key to negotiation, it's not about you. You know, we hear this all the time, but here you hear no and you go like, oh my God, oh my God, I hate no. I hate being told no. I think we get that conditioned every child on earth, regardless of the language. What's the first word they learn? No. Because they get told no and they get pointed at them and no, don't do that. No, no, no. So we get a beat into a hardwired into us that when we hear it something horrible has just happened. But the flip side, the person who's saying it feels protected and safe.

And.

They calm down and they relax. They feel like they just protected themselves. The other thing too is you can say no when you're tired and then immediately contribute to the conversation and think things through really quickly. So it's completely different if it's about them. People love to say no. They feel. And they're gonna say a bunch more afterwards. You know, I got a couple no stories that I love, but I'll tell one of my favorites. Robert Herjavec. We're negotiating with Robert Herjavec's crew over how many tickets are gonna buy for one of our training events. I've already offered him one. His response for free. His response to the one for free was how many can we buy? Not how many more free ones can we get. I'm a huge Robert Herjavec fan. Based on my interaction with them, I find him to be a generous, decent human being. So we're going back and forth and the event is getting ready to sell out. And my son Brandon, who runs my company, he calls me on the phone late in the day, I'm in la. He says, you get herjavec to commit how many tickets are gonna buy now or they're gonna be sold out by the time the sun rises in New York tomorrow. Cause my son's on east coast time. We're getting ready to sell the event out. And Brandon says, and if he doesn't buy any, I'm giving away, I'm selling a ticket that we're supposed to be giving him for free. So I'm like, all right, I got to cut this deal now. That's five o' clock in la. When's the last time you tried to get a hard decision out of somebody at 5 o'? Clock? At 5:03 and also an email at 503. I sent a two line email to Robert Herjavec. Is it a ridiculous idea for you to commit to buying three tickets now? Second line. Are you against paying for them before the business day starts in New York tomorrow? Again, we're three hours behind New York. The time stamp on his email response is 5:04. One minute later. No, we'll commit to the three tickets right now. No, it's not a problem. We'll pay for them right away. Send me a link. We'll pay for them right now, within the hour I send them the link, we get the money at 523. Get people to say no. You'd be shocked at the responses you get.

So Chris, how might an entrepreneur use these strategies and techniques that you teach to better understand and serve their clients?

Well, yeah, I mean first of all, in simply understanding them better will help you serve them, you know. Alright, so let's say you're the favorite and let's say that they're elf. They're not half, they want you to dial into them. You know, you, you want to be open to a better deal, which is you tailoring your services to them so that it better serves them and it's more lucrative for you. Because first of all, I'm going to presume that everybody on this call believes the same thing that I do, that you over deliver. So first of all, if you're over delivering, you were bargaining whatever you were charging anyway, which means if you tailor your service, you're good of service so that it's a better delivery for them, you're worth even more. Yes, you want to get what you do. No, don't, don't be greedy, don't grab with both hands. But when you provide a service that's worth it, you are Entitled to be paid. So the more that you listen to them and understand them, and I'm here to tell you there are ways that you can tailor whatever you're providing that would be easier for you to provide it, which means it would be more profitable for you and it would be better for them. So be willing to engage in conversations and be open to that. And then, you know, the other crazy thing is there might be something really counterintuitive that'll make it profitable for you in unexpected ways. And one of my favorites is, you know, our mutual friend Dan Sullivan. He's talking about his book deal. He's talking about listening to me. Never split the difference. And we pay.

Sorry, I pushed the wrong button.

We pay people what they ask. No, I don't pound people on price. So Dan turns around and gives every dime of the book proceeds to Dan and Tucker.

Ben.

Ben and Tucker. Sorry. And then Ben and Tucker. Tucker says, dan got the last drop of my blood. When you're not greedy on the price term, what the other side gives you back might be worth 10 times what the dollars were worth. And those guys, I think those guys. I think Ben and Tucker would die for Dan. Yeah.

Yeah. And that's. See, the beauty of Dan, too, is. And I think it's one of the reasons. I mean, heck, me and Dan have done podcasts on this is we like reciprocal people. You know, we like people that are generous. We like people that are useful. And it's just so much easier to. That's what an ELF person is. People keep asking, what does ELF mean? Elf is easy, lucrative, and fun, and half is hard, annoying, lame, and frustrating. It's actually a term I got over 20 years ago from my friend Mark Schneider, who unfortunately passed away earlier this year, but I heard him say elf years ago. And I said, I'm going to develop that into something, because I started thinking of all the different business methodologies you can use in terms of marketing and the stuff that me and Dean Jackson teach on. I love marketing. It's ELF marketing. It's automated. It's robotic. But then I started thinking, how do you. You can filter everything through an ELF filter. What are people? What are projects? What are things that you're doing? Are they easy, lucrative, and fun? Or are they hard, annoying, lame, and frustrating? Sometimes people can be hard, annoying, lucrative, and frustrating. Not all money is created equal. So ELF is a really great filter. And I'm super happy, Chris, that you're referring to that, because I think it just offers some framing. So, yeah, I mean, this is once you, once you become skilled at utilizing what Chris is teaching and what he's talking about here, you will find a lot of things in your life that were difficult become more elf. And that's the whole goal, is to bring ELF to people in all areas of their entrepreneurial endeavors.

I'm going to jump in real quick because there's one more tangent I want to go on to on half and out before you fire your half clients. And we just shifted into this recently. We got a couple of deals that were proposed to us and they were half deals before we walked away. And I had this conversation with my son Brandon and everybody else in our company. When it came up, I said, what's the counteroffer that would make this an ELF deal before we walk? Maybe they don't know that this is half. Maybe they don't understand it and there's a pretty good chance of what you know, the chances are that they're going to offer you a half deal because they don't know any better. They can't help themselves. There's a whole bunch of reasons. I said, let's counter with what would make this an ELF relationship. At that point, there's no doubt in anybody's mind what we're looking for. And they have the option to take it or leave it. And we have the option to take it or leave it.

Great. That's fantastic. So. Well, Chris, if someone wants to learn to become a better negotiator, what's the first step that they should or could take, including reading your book or any of your trainings? If you could give some suggestions for that.

Yeah, well, in practice, stop making your case, stop making your argument. Or, you know, let's just reverse the sequence a little bit. Like way back when Covey told us, seek first, understand, then be understood. Let's change that and say seek first to make the other side feel understood. Now start practicing this in your small sticks conversations because you're not, you're not gonna, you're not gonna bring this to bear when you got a lot on the line. You're gonna go back to your old habits, whatever they may be, good or bad. You know, with the Starbucks person, with the Lyft driver, with person, you know, the checkout person at the grocery store, you know, take, take a shot at them on giving them a real brief, take a look at their face and see how they feel in a moment and try to give them an idea that you understand what they're going through. Just start experimenting with this stuff in small Stakes conversations, you will get results, and that will encourage you to drop it in to your more important conversations. So how to get better Right now, just start, you know, mirror the clerk. I talked earlier about mirroring. Just repeat the last three words, what they said. If you can look at them, say, hey, it looks like a tough day, long day, looks like you're tired, anything. Throw something out there to get a few words out of them. And just start practicing on the small stakes stuff.

Hey, I hope you're enjoying this video. And I want to let you know that I have a new book that's come out, and if you'd like to get it absolutely free, there's a link below in the description. Or you can wait till the end of this video, or you can Simply go to joe'sfreebook.com and you can get a copy there. Well, here's another person, a new friend of mine, Amy Chan, who wrote a book called Breakup Boot camp. And this book literally just came out. Amy, can you tarna unmute Amy? I want to ask her about this. I have a funny question for Chris and Amy as it relates to this. So for one, I saw my buddy Neil Strauss posted something on Instagram from Amy, and I'm like, well, you know, Neil's an amazing writer. We've had him on. We've had him on I love Market a couple of times. Both Dean and I have known Neil for over a decade, and Neil's like, one of the world's greatest writers. And so when he's like, plugging somebody's book, I'm like, this is probably so I've only read, like, the first chapter. That's as far as I've gotten into it, but it's really great. And I'd asked Chris in a previous interview, when you're negotiating, how do you ask someone out on a date? And I'd like to get Chris's take on how do you actually break up with somebody? And I'd love to have Amy just give a real quick plug for her book, because I actually would like to interview Amy on her book before I go on my sabbatical. And we'll put it out there. But, Amy, you want to speak real quick to your book. And I'd love to hear. I'd love to hear Chris's take on asking someone out and breaking up with somebody.

Yeah, I mean, breakup boot camp, the science of rewiring your heart. We take a scientific and spiritual approach to healing the heart. And people think that it's about the breakup. It's never just about the ex. It's recycled pain. And so we deal with a lot of the subconscious beliefs and patterns that it's causing the same emotional experience to repeat over and over, just with different partners. So whether you're single, couple, dating, or divorced, this book is helpful because it's not about the other person. It's about your relationship with self and understanding those subconscious patterns so that you could shift out of them.

And let me speak to this, too, because you actually talk about the parts that I've read so far about what it actually does, the grief that one experiences, similar to withdrawals from an addiction. And you even quote my dear friend Dr. Ramani Darvasala, who's the narcissist expert who I've interviewed a couple times. She's amazing. And so the book is incredibly valuable. And I think it's really time right now. And I'd love to. I'd love to get your take on when someone has to initiate a breakup. How, you know, people, you hear the word, you know, conscious uncoupling and stuff. But some people can break up with someone and leave a lot of unnecessary devastation in the wake. And I'd like to hear your take on that, Amy. And I'd also like to hear what Chris would say to that.

Yeah, I mean, I think that when breakups happen, whether you're the one doing it or you're the one receiving it, you're still going to go through your stages of separation and grief. And, you know, of course, this might sound super simple, but getting to a state of compassion before you have that conversation is super important because what I see often is ghosting or, you know, a text message breakup after dating someone for years. And really, when you look at why people react like that, it goes down to childhood. Like, how did they react to confrontation? How did they react to uncomfortable emotions when they were a kid? Did they withdraw? Did they. Were they scolded for having those emotions? So sometimes they bring those patterns in with them and they break up in a way that doesn't have compassion. And so, unfortunately, as much as you want to be friends with a person that you're having a breakup with, you need time for those neural pathways to prune away. Because when you're with someone, you have neural pathways that have been wired together. So I say 60 days of no contact. That means no scrolling their Instagram feed, no looking at text messages, no calling them up, and, you know, getting angry because they're still getting that emotional charge. You're still getting that hit and that keeps you hooked and attached. And even if you think that you're doing the kind thing by being their friend, it's actually the more selfish thing to do.

Yeah, that's. No, that's, That's. So, Amy, if you could put a link for people to get your book, I would. I imagine just with what's going on in the pandemic, that there's a lot of people right now that could probably benefit from her book. And I think it'd be kind of cool to connect you and Chris together. I'd love to hear a whole, I'd love to hear a longer conversation with Chris and Amy just talking about a relationship, because this is all negotiation, you know, that's at least the way I look at it. Chris, what would you say to any negotiation methods for getting in and out of relationships?

You know, I really like what she said in so many ways, particularly about the post event, if you will, behavior and what's best for both you and both them. And, you know, I've had relationships that didn't work out. You know, I'm a human being. The exits, when I was clear and I was nice, you know, I never want, I don't want anybody to be in doubt as to why I'm out and they're not. And, but that doesn't mean you got to be a jerk about it. You know, don't, don't try to save. When you say you're trying to save them, you're really trying to save yourself. And you know, people, people need, don't, don't let it linger. You know, something that has to, you can't, you can't, you can't cut somebody's head off over four, five, six interactions. You know, you gotta, you gotta rip the band aid off. You gotta chop that, whatever it is for you, but that doesn't mean you gotta be cruel about it. And, you know, when I decided that my previous marriage wasn't working, I walked in, I said, you know, I want a divorce. I'd be happy to talk it through with you. I'm not going to say anything to you that you haven't heard already. She wanted to hear it when I got done. She said, you're right. There's nothing there that you haven't already said. And then that was it. So, you know, who you, who you trying to spare a lot of times, and I don't know if Amy said it exactly like this, word for word, but I know the thought was there. You know, who you trying to spare? You say you're trying to spare them, but you're probably trying to spare yourself and point the fact. You got to be direct, but you don't got to be mean about it. And then when it's done, it's done. And what's best for both of you to heal afterwards. I loved what she said. I loved it.

So, Catalina, how can I negotiate the rent from €500 to 300 or €200, because the space is very small, 1.6m meters, I guess, and I'm in America here, I don't understand what this stuff is. And I want to make it double 2.5 meters to open a wine and spirits experience shop in a sweets showroom. Can I have some advice, please? So basically how to negotiate the rent, Chris? Yeah.

Well, like any other business deal, first of all, price is only a term and the other side is going to be collaborative with you depending upon where it's taken them and depending upon what threats they see in the current environment. So if, you know, if your approach with your landlord from the beginning is how can I be the best long term tenant you ever had? Now that changes the game a little bit. So which, how's your approach? If you just start out with I want more for less, here's how you come off. Selfish, you know, you got. It's not about you. How do you come off to them? I mean, how do you really come off to them? How do you build their future with a different deal? Because if you're just looking to cut my throat, why should I give you a deal? But if you're looking to make my life better, if you're looking to be more elf for me, easy, lucrative and fun, now that's a different conversation you can engage your landlord in.

Gregorio. I hope I'm pronouncing that right. What's your version or tactics to closing or asking for the business? What tactics do you employ to assert your position? How do you deal with apathy from prospects who you must engage with? If you need me to break those out, I can do that.

Well, let's go with the closing one first. Right, so we don't go for yes ever is getting to yes, yes. Well, proposition the yes momentum. That's bad. How did I close herjavec with no oriented questions? I closed them after 5 o' clock in the afternoon. It's hard to close anybody after 1:00 clock in the afternoon for legitimate reason. Decision fatigue. Yes is a trap. You're trying to trick me into something. What are the unintended consequences what are the hooks that I don't see with. Yes. If we get to the point where we got to close or we have to issue some sort of call to action, it's always with a no oriented question. Do you disagree? Is this a ridiculous idea? Are you against those? Those are, those are the three and I think, I think I used two. Two of those in, in the, in the email with herjavec. Are you against, do you disagree? Is this a bad idea? Is this ridiculous? Is, is this offensive? That's that if, if I got a close on a dime it's going to be with a no oriented question. Always, always use no to close.

Thank you and I'm so happy to have you part of the faculty. It just adds so much more this value to an incredible group of incredible people. So thank you. Chris. Where do they get more of you? Where do they follow you? How do they. Anything else that you're. That you'd like to talk about that you haven't other than the movie that you're working on and where do people follow you? Where do they go?

Now the gateway to everything that the Black Swan Group has to offer is really through our complimentary newsletter. You send a text message to the number 33 triple seven and I'll throw it in the chat to help and get to the bottom of the chat. Put my glasses on so I can see what I'm doing. Send chat to everyone. Alright? That's the number that you send it to and this is the message you send. Black Swan method. Not case sensitive spaces between the words. If you send it to that number, send it to the number 33 triple seven. Black Swan method three words. You get a text box response asking for your email address. The email is concise which means it's not going to wear you out reading it. It's actionable and it's a gateway to everything. It's a gateway to the website, it's a gateway to training we're putting on. It's gateway to the free products. I mean the, the newsletter is the best way to stay in touch and keep up with us.

Well, what I'd like to do is ask everyone that's got a copy of Chris's book. Never split the difference to put yourself on gallery mode. Grab the book, hold it up, take your video off if you could and let's do if you can do a video or screenshot and then I'd love for you guys to do a shout out on social media that you listen to the I love marketing episode with Chris Voss plug his book. That would be absolutely wonderful. Then post it. And so here we go. So, Chris, on behalf of myself, Dean Jackson, everyone at Genius Network, and I love marketing, thank you for being an amazing guest on the I love Marketing group. And those of you that want to watch this episode, it's on YouTube and it will also be on I love marketing. So make sure you subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. Chris Voss, author of Never Split the Difference, which is amazing. So thank you, Chris.

Thanks, Joe. An absolute pleasure as always.

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