The #1 Secret to Entrepreneurial Success with Dan Sullivan & Richard Branson

So, Dan, I've been in Strategic Coach at this point in time for over 13 years. Dean Jackson's in the program. It is the highest level coaching program in the world for successful entrepreneurs. And you've heard me say this a million times. You are truly the smartest entrepreneurial thinker that I've ever met in my life. You're brilliant, and you've coached thousands of some of the world's highest level entrepreneurs. And you know a lot about how to make them better, how to assist them. And so most of the people that are watching this video are either already in a business or definitely entrepreneurs. And so, you know, from the get go, what the heck do you actually do at Strategic Coach?

Well, I think this is, you know, this is kind of an example of why great entrepreneurs become great, is that they hang around with other great entrepreneurs. And I say that as if it's sort of a flipping statement, but it's really not. You know, there was a great motivational speaker in the States by the name of Charlie Tremendous Jones. And Charlie Tremendous Jones had this great line which to this day, I think is probably the bedrock of how you move ahead with your life. And he said, you know, who you are 10 years ago is really a function of one the books you read, like the ideas that you expose yourself to, but who you hang out with. And, you know, so when I look at really great entrepreneurs, you know, you go a little ways away from them and you notice that their networks are just filled up with other people who are really smart, who really challenge them, who are constantly giving them new ideas. I wish there were more secrets than that, but actually, I wish that I could make some money on.

But actually, those are the two secrets.

All right, well, this concludes this interview. No, that's fantastic. That is true, though. I mean, really, what is it about learning? I mean, what do entrepreneurs really need to learn? Because when you say the people you hang out with and the books you read, I mean, some people are readers, some people are not. Some people go to seminars, other people don't. I mean, what is your take on what do you really need to learn as an entrepreneur?

Well, you know, I was talking to one of my groups about two weeks ago, and I'm going to take about a minute to set this up, but it's actually a very instructive thing because the really great entrepreneurs all have the quality that I'm going to describe here. I went to Britain, I went to London one year and I went to Westminster Abbey. And, you know, you walk around, there's kings buried there. There's prime ministers. And, you know, you think with Britain being a great theatrical country, there would be a lot of actors there, but there's only one actor, and his name is Laurence Olivier. And so I got interested. I said, you know, why only one actor? And, you know, I'd seen him when I was a kid, and he predated me by, you know, he was quite a bit older than me, but I read his biography, and he had this trick that he did, and the trick was that he was very famous and he was very popular. And so when he was appearing on stage, everybody would go to see him. So the plays that he was in would last 150. 200. 250 performances. And the reputation he had was if you went to the 250th performance, it was just as fresh as his first performance. And in the book, it kind of describes how he did this, and that is that before the performance, he'd go out about 50 minutes before the curtain went up, and he'd look through a hole in the curtain, and he had this little ritual that he would say to this is not last night's audience. This is not last night's theater. This is not last night's play. I am not last night's character. The cast is not last night's cast. And he said, it's all new. And as he did this, he would get scared and he would get excited just as if it was opening night. And what I find, along with the Charlie Tremendous Jones things, is that one of the things that really great entrepreneurs are always reminding themselves is that whatever they did yesterday, that was last night's play. But now this is a fresh play, this is new. And I think that really has to do with not taking the audience for granted, not taking that what you were doing before is going to work today. And you're always open to.

Totally.

You know, I'm going to get surprised today, and I have to really be alert that there's something new that's going to come out of the blue today, and I have to really be fresh for this. That's fantastic.

So, I mean, so as it relates to, like, to, like an education, I mean, I heard you say this very early on when I joined Strategic Coaches. There's two things that you need.

To.

Become an entrepreneur in the beginning. One is courage, and the other is ignorance. And I thought, you know, it's really a great way to look at it, because if I really knew all of the challenges that I would encounter going into business, some of it would have scared the hell out of me.

Yeah, you'd be working for the government right now.

Exactly. Which would have been.

Only civil servants really know the true.

Risks of being an entrepreneur. I mean, it's true. I mean, if you really knew what you were getting into, you'd never do it.

No, I mean, you're signing up for some insanity at some level, some risks, the levels of responsibility that you take as an entrepreneur, that sort of stuff.

But the courage is that, you know, that whatever happens that you'll have the ability to respond to it. I think that's where the courage comes into.

Well, yeah, totally. So I mean, obviously there's a lot of things to learn. So for someone that would be watching this video, out of all of the stuff that they could pay attention to in this day and age, most entrepreneurs that I know are extraordinarily overwhelmed, very busy, don't take any free time. Got into the business, I think because they wanted freedom, they wanted to make money because they thought they really don't have any freedom and they're still trying to. What do I pay attention to? What business book should I read? What seminar should I go to? If they even do that at all. How would you advise someone on how to kind of, you know, have a functional, balanced life with some freedom, but also to be as productive as they could possibly be? I mean, you know, there's a lot to that. I know. And it's not maybe a one word answer, but what do you tell them?

Well, there's a couple of questions that you asked there, but the first one is, and this is where I've seen a lot of entrepreneurs really burn out. And that is they forget after a while that they're actually in a brain business. They're not in a body business. In other words, it's not how many hours or days your body is at work, it's what your brain doing. Probably the biggest distinction that my work has made in the marketplace is really the emphasis that I put on free time, is actually having lots and lots of free time so that you can give yourself mind a lot of rejuvenation and a lot of rest and a lot of refreshment. Because when your brain is really at its top function, you can achieve things very, very quickly. You can come up with ideas very quickly. And so it's not like you're a factory worker where you get paid for putting in hours with an entrepreneur, it's just being really alert to new opportunities and taking advantage of of them very quickly. And your brain really has to be fresh for that. So I actually put an enormous amount of emphasis. You know, I'm sort of very contrarian here. As you know, it's, you know, if you take 20 or 30 weeks off, you can be a, probably a much more effective entrepreneur than someone who's putting in 50, 50 hour, you know, 50 minutes. There's a distinction to what you do.

Though, because you, you're an advocate for.

Putting the free time on the front end as opposed to work till you collapse and then take the free time. You're saying take the free time as rejuvenation and approach then the work. Yeah, and I think the reason is, and it goes to the kind of work that I've noticed that you do, Dean, is that, is that you're testing. I mean, one of the big things that I'm so fascinated with, and Joe, you've kind of introduced me to this world, is the whole world of information marketing, especially those who are using online capabilities. And what I'm so impressed about this world is the willingness to fail really fast. I would say that the secret of this world is to get an idea out and immediately set it up as a test to see is there any take on it whatsoever and if there isn't, change and get out there and do something new. Well, your brain really has to be really, really fresh, first of all, just to have the emotional courage to, you know, I thought this was a really great idea.

Whoops.

Didn't work.

Let's change real quickly, but then have the stamina on the spot to come up with a new thing. I'm so impressed with you guys because I've been, you know, Dean, I've been doing this interview series with really, you know, you guys are kind of like the giants of this new world. And I'm so impressed with the speed with which you're willing to fail. I mean, well, the success is almost just fail enough and then there isn't anything more to fail at. And then all you're left with is something that really works.

Well, see, the beauty of marketing is in the real world, it's called failure. In the marketing world, it's called testing.

You know me, that's how I rationalized.

My bankruptcies and divorce a long time ago. It's just extreme market research.

Exactly. Well, Dr. Jackson, what would you like to ask Dr. Sullivan about marketing?

You know, I think when one of the things.

And I'm gonna get some wine.

What you're able to do with strategic coach and why Joe and I are part of this Is you mentioned what, what Charlie Tremendous Jones said is your, your income, your life, who you are really is one of the factors is the kind of people that you hang out with. And I know that, that one of the most incredible benefits of being part of Strategic Coach, when Joe and I go, is the people that are in the room, the people that are there are just like, it's a tremendous growth opportunity because everybody is a successful entrepreneur, not just a successful entrepreneur. They're the top of the top of the successful entrepreneurs. And it's just a real growth experience just to even expand your network like that.

Yeah.

And I think that, you know, you know, just to bring out another quality that I think really distinguishes the entrepreneurs, there's a real humility. You know, there's a guy named Bill Joy in Silicon Valley, and he's got this famous law, which is called Joy's Law. And Joy's Law is that no matter how smart you are, there's somebody out there who's smarter.

Right, right.

And you have to recognize that. And I think that when you come into Strategic Coach, you recognize that you're smart in one way, and that's really.

Gotten you where you are.

But what gets you even further is the willingness that just as you're smart in a particular area, there's lots of other people who are very, very smart, just as smart as you are in their areas. And that just expands you because you realize, well, first of all, I don't have to be smart in their area. I can just take advantage of what they're doing.

Right?

Right.

Okay, so now let's talk about smart marketing, and let's talk about the whole concept of marketing. Me and Dean have spent at least, gosh, probably 20 years, almost 20 years. For me, it's been more. I think I'm better than you because I think I've got a year on here. What do you think?

I don't know.

But we've invested a tremendous amount of time learning in mastering direct response marketing, and we love it because it's a way to replicate yourself. I think marketing is the ultimate leverage. And I'd like to ask you, Dan, what does marketing mean to you? What is it to you? And you're certainly a great marketer, and I'd love to get your take on it.

Well, I mean, again, I'm going to have to take a second seat here, because what we had when you met us in Strategic Coaches, we. We were a great sales organization. I started this in 74, 1974, and we were always a great Sales organization. In other words, put us in front of someone and we can probably get them to sign a check. And not only one check, but we can probably keep them for a long time. So we were good at selling. But what I learned really from you was the fact is that, yeah, but how do you get in front of the person? And is that costing you more and more every year, or is there a way that that can actually cost you less every year? So the real secret, ultimately, to be a great salesperson is that you have to be a great marketer first. And great marketing means is constantly increasing your ability to catch other people's attention, their interest, and do it at a lower and lower cost every year. And I mean, that's, you know, and if you can't do that, then, I mean, everything comes down to the cost of the actual acquisition of someone who's going to write a check to you.

Yeah, absolutely. Hey, I hope you're enjoying this video. And I want to let you know that I have a new book that's come out, and if you'd like to get it absolutely free, there's a link below in the description. Or you can wait till the end of this video, or you can simply go to Joe's free book and you can get a copy there. And by the way, jumping at any point in time.

Well, I think what you were saying.

Because we talk about this concept of the before unit, and one of the great ways to think about it is to think if you could buy, if it was like a vending machine where you could identify what your ideal. Who your ideal customer is, who your ideal client is, and you could push a button, put in the amount of money that you can know knowingly pay to get one of those and do that as often as you can. That's what really your before unit is about, is about building that vending machine that you put whatever the amount that you can spend to acquire a customer, if it's $100, a thousand dollars, $5,000, if you can reliably push that button and have your ideal client end up in your workshops or in your. Yeah, and I mean, we've, you know, again, it's who I'm hanging, hanging out with recently. Just to your point, Dean, you know, we did a little comparison. And I mean, this. This was just like, you know, you've been operating in one world and you think you have it figured out, and then you discover some people who have a whole new methodology. But about a year and a half, we went over to Webinars you know, which we had never done. You know, we had always been live speech. Usually at trade shows where you ship your team there, you have to pay for air flight, you have to pay for hotels, you have to pay for booth space. And, you know, that had been a tried and true. We were going to the trade shows, and then we introduced this new methodology of webinars. And we just did a little comparison of the last 50 people that we acquired at a trade show and the last 50 people we acquired at a webinar. And we said, how much did one cost and how much did the other cost? And the cost of acquisition of trade show was $1,200 per client. Now, the lifetime value of 1 of our client is $25,000. So we could sort of justify it.

But the 50 that we got from.

The webinar was $12 per person. So you got $12,000 on one side and 12 on the other. And we're sitting there and we say, hmm, which one should we go for?

Where does our future lie?

You know, and that's the interesting thing about, you know, Dean, the world that you're living in and Joe, the world that you're constantly pushing with, you know, with all the piranha marketing technologies that you've created is, you know, there's much, much, much better ways of doing this, you know, and we live in a wonderful age. You know, I mean, I'm just really happy to be alive in the 21st century, especially the last 10 years, just because of the technologies that are now empowering entrepreneurs in a way that we're only. That they used to only be available to large corporations.

Well, you know, what's new about the world and what's always going to stay the same. You know, what I mean is like, there's things that are timely, that are going to make you successful and that are going to be constantly changing and innovations. And then there's timeless principles of quote, unquote, success, if you want to call it that. What are your thoughts on that?

Well, I think what's timeless, I've got this technique that I use when I start one of my introductions and I say, I just want everybody to raise your hand. Are you here for. Are you here for me or are you here for you? And I said, anybody that said me, put your hand down. And when I say you're here for you, raise your hand. And I think that what's timeless is that people are always there for themselves. And it's your job as a marketer to figure out why they're there for themselves. And that's timeless. And it's timeless that that's always going to be true. What's not timeless is that it's always going to be changing why they're there. In other words, their reasons for being there are going to change with the way the world changes, the way that things. But what's always going to be true is that they're there for themselves. So as a marketer, a creator of new products, new services, new experiences, then you have to realize that it's your job to always be figuring out why are they there and what are they willing to write a check for and why would they stay with you? Why would they stay with you? And so if the emphasis, I mean, they're never there for you, you have to realize that. And the moment you realize that they're not here for me, they're only there for themselves. And your job is to figure out why they're there for themselves. And I think that's the secret.

Yeah, well. Yeah, yeah, well, you know, I mean, you know, I mean I'm a great.

You know, I'm a great student of American history. And James Madison, who arguably is the great genius behind the whole experiment that's called the United States, said some philosophies are based on that human beings are going to be really, really virtuous. And he says, I think it's a much better bet that they're actually going to be very selfish and very self interested. So build a system of government where all their selfishness and their looking out for themselves actually contributes to the common good. So while we'll just create a system where we'll just funnel their selfishness so that it produces great goods for everybody else. And I think that that's basically the marketplace, I think that's capitalism, is that somehow by everybody pursuing their own interests and trying to get what they want, it actually produces an enormous amount of good for everybody.

What makes a successful producing entrepreneur? And I'll let Marie do the honors.

Ah, gosh.

What makes a successful entrepreneur? I'm not sure that somebody will know that they're an entrepreneur from the beginning. I think they will have a desire to make a difference to other people's lives and you know, they'll see that, you know, that something's frustrating them. There's a gap in the markets, they feel they can do it better themselves and they'll try to fill that gap in the market. And then they almost become an entrepreneur by default. I don't think you can sort of set out to become an entrepreneur. I think you've got to set out to make a difference to other people's lives.

Well, what are the business principles that have stood out for you, that just have worked really well for Virgin and for even building any sort of organization or cause?

Well, again, I don't necessarily think of them as business principles. I think the word, you know, I think the word business, it becomes the business. But what you're doing is you're, you're, you know, painting a picture. You're trying to, you're trying to create something to make a difference to other people's lives. You have a blank canvas and you're filling in every little bit of that canvas to get every single little detail right. And if that canvas sings out at you at the end and it's a beautiful picture, your business is going to be successful. If bits of the canvas are not quite right, your business may fail. So if you set up a, if you set up to change people's lives, you've got to get every single little detail right. You've got to make sure that the people that you're working with 100% believe in what you're trying to do. And you've got to make sure that what you are trying to do is worthwhile spending your time on. And the end of the day, you want to be sure that the people's lives you've affected, you've really been. You've affected them and benefited them. And, you know, if you get all that right, you know, hopefully you'll be able to pay the bills at the end of the year.

Well, you know, I know you've started.

So many businesses, Richard. I mean, you have, I think, 300.

Some companies right now.

And, you know, so many entrepreneurs. I work with a lot of entrepreneurs.

Who are startups, who are in their.

Growth phase, who are even in their.

You know, legacy phase.

And if, if you're in a startup mode, I mean, you just talked about.

This painting the canvas. That's really incredible.

What is there, like one tangible piece of advice that, that you wish that.

You had when you were just starting your, your first business?

I mean, the absolute key and I, and like old stuck gramophone record that existed in my day is how good you are with people. And if you genuinely care about people, if you can surround yourself with people that genuinely excited about what you're doing, if you can draw out the best in people, if you're good at lavishing praise on people and not criticizing your people and inspiring your people, that's something you just have to do from day one. You know, never use the I word. I mean it's, you know, you're a team, we're doing this, we're doing that. Just never ever, you know, let it sort of center on yourself and just be a great leader of people. And you know, if you can do that from day one, even if you've got one other person working with you or two other people working with you, then, you know, you can enjoy the good times together. But there will be bad times and those that your people will pull, pull around for you. They'll work day and night to try to keep whatever it is you're creating alive and make sure it survives. So the number one lesson is be a great people person.

That's great.

And I got a quick follow up.

And the follow up would be, so.

Now you started to make it as a business owner. So now we work with a lot.

Of seven figure, eight figure, nine figure business owners.

What did you do to take it.

To really the whole whole next level?

Well, I think the next stage is to be a great delegator and not try to do everything yourself. Try to find people who are better than you all the time. Try to find people who are better than you to put you out of business effectively. So whatever you're spending all your day doing, try to find someone who's better than you to do that, to replace you at it so that, you know, you can go off and, you know, think about the next big picture. You know, an entrepreneur is not a man, not a manager. I mean, an entrepreneur is somebody who is great at conceiving ideas, starting, starting ideas, built, building ideas, but then handing over to really good managers to manage the businesses. You know, the moment you've got more than one business, you can't be hands on doing everything. You know, if on the other hand you are, you know, you're not really a great entrepreneur, but you're a really good manager, you know, then fine, just immerse yourself in the business. You know, worry about every, every detail. Don't worry about having to, you know, move on to other businesses. So it slightly depends on what kind of person you are. You know, in a strange way, Steve Jobs was more a manager than an entrepreneur. I mean, it sounds slightly strange to say that because, you know, but I mean, he was somebody that, you know, focused on, you know, you know, almost specifically on, on one subject matter, you know, immersed himself in that business. He second guessed everybody with everything. No bit of artwork could go out without his approval. And he built a formidable business, but pretty specific business in one area, and it worked very well for him. But if you want to be a true entrepreneur and build a lot of different businesses, you've got to be a great delegator.

Here's the thing. I've been in strategic coach since 1997. Me and Dan do the 10X Talk podcast together. Hang out quite a bit over the years with Dan and Babs and even up at their cottage. And we spent a lot of time together doing a lot of things. And you've taught me how to really look at things that I invest in as a cost versus an investment. And you also have done extraordinarily well in Genius Network. And what I really admire the most about you is that that you're at a position where it'd be really easy for you to just constantly be the smartest guy in the room or be the quote unquote guru. And you always have a beginner's mind as you approach things. And so even though you've coached more successful entrepreneurs than anyone in the world, you are great at being a student and participating in ways. And a lot of people that haven't even done 1/100th of what you have done, I see a level of they start believing their own PR and they get arrogant and they think they're really cool or they swoop into an event and as long as they're on stage, that's there and then they're gone. And so you're not that way at all. And you're constantly learning and you also help other people with how to take that approach. So I've written some questions that I want to make sure I ask you in the right way. What's your perspective and definition of cost versus investment is the first one. But if you want to say anything before that, I just want to make sure we set it up right.

Yeah, I think the. So my focus in any situation that I get into is just what's my mindset going into the situation. And what I try to do is to treat the past as raw material. In other words, you know that I'm very interested in my past, but I'm only interested in my past as raw material that can be transformed into new lessons for the future. So I'm constantly going back, taking situations for my life. And I was so impressed with your video. And I've been enormously impressed with Joe ever since I first met him. In spite of his best efforts when I first met him to seem like he was really odd, I Didn't see how odd he was, but I saw this incredible capability in the middle. And so what I say is that one of the keys. And I guess I'm proving it more now for a lot of people, because I over 70. But my number one rule is that you always have to make your future bigger than your past. Okay? And that has to do with that. The past is simply there for learning, and the future is there for winning. And so that's my basic attitude. So when I walk into Genius Network, every time I do a little thought process before I come in and I say, okay, we're starting fresh, so what is it that I'm actually looking for when I come to Genius Network? And it's kind of funny because even before we started, we already got two crucial pieces of information. One on an AI program that actually does wonders on your website. And that was just an enchant conversation that we had at dinner the night before. Somebody mentioned this. I said, bingo, there's one. And then the next morning, we were sitting in the restaurant here at the. At the hotel, and this man was sitting at the table next to us, and we said hi and everything like that. And then we started chatting. And then we invited him over, and we talked for an hour and a half. And from Australia, Jason. Where is Jason here, anyway?

Over there.

Oh, there he is. So anyway, I have a phrase that our eyes only see and our ears only hear what our brain is looking for. So our number one responsibility is just to tell our brain what we're actually looking for. And then your eyes and ears are out there picking up what you're doing. And then. So I really zeroed in on Jason. And then I knew somebody in Strategic Coach program who would be very interested in Jason. So the first thing I did when I could yesterday, I introduced the two of them, and I said, you two have a lot to talk about. And then when Beau came up, I said, you know, it's time for me to do Beau's course. So I went up to Bo and I said, next year, I'm gonna do your program. So, you know, even before, you know, the first hour of Genius had started, three things that already happened that corresponded to what I was looking for. Right?

Right.

Yeah.

No, and see, one thing that I. When you showed me the impact filter that you did for the 100k group. So Dan joined 100k right when we first started it. And the interesting thing was watching how he thinks about something before he goes into it. So me and Dean Jackson and I love marketing, We Actually teach a model of the before, during and after unit. Because there's three stages of your business. There's the before unit, what you do before you start interacting with a client, doing business. Then there's the during unit, and then there's the after unit. After somebody gives you money, how do you deliver world class service so that they love you, appreciate you, and repeat business and generates referral business? And so as business owners, it's a real simple framework to not just think of, oh, I got to grow my business. Well, do you have to. Do you want to grow. If it's growing the business, the before unit, do you want to do better in the during or the after unit? Because some people are really great at before, but they're not very good at during. Some people are great at during, but they're terrible at after. They never interact with the clients after the fact. So if you look at your business as having three different units. But then I realized by watching Dan with any sort of learning experience, it's what he does. It's kind of like what Robert Cialdini was talking about, pre suasion. It's what do you do before the event? So before every Genius Network event, Genius X event, Dan does thinking beforehand. And you don't spend a lot of time doing it, but what he does is this great line, is the juice worth the squeeze? Well, the juice is worth the squeeze to the degree that you are able to squeeze to the degree that you're able to go into it very thoughtfully, very intentionally. And so where's Alex Van Dozian? Is he in the room yet? Okay, Alex. I wasn't at the breakfast thing. How was that, by the way? Yeah, thank you. And so Alex held an event called Pathfinders and I went to it. And before the event, I read every bit of the program and made notes beforehand. A lot of times I've not done that in the past, but I do that thinking about Dan because Dan goes into things very thoughtful and it just made a world of difference once I was there. And so a lot of times people that don't do any sort of thoughtful, intentional thinking before, they go to something, then they're waiting for that thing to impress the hell out of them, when in reality, it was up to them to create the experience. Because the experience you have in Genius Network or here or any sort of environment, as a matter of fact. So it's the same thing with Strategic Coach. But the big thing I want to point out though is the cost versus investment. I'd love to have you speak to that? Because you've articulated it better than anyone I've ever heard.

Yeah. So what I see is you have a choice and I believe the more that your life going forward is a choice rather than that things happen to you and then as you say, you react to them. But just using Robert Cialdini yesterday, that it struck me as Robert was talking that the best way to be a pre suader of other people is actually to be a pre suader of yourself. And therefore I don't see Genius Network as any kind of cost whatsoever, you know, because I pre suaded myself that. And can I give you some numbers? I just want to tell you and I did a form a thinking process that we have in Strategic Coach called the Impact Filter. And it's a way that I prepare my mind for any kind of situation, whether I'm doing a new workshop, whether I'm doing podcasts, whether I'm writing a new book. And I pre swayed myself before what the optimum outcome is. And I tell myself the breakthroughs I'm going to have, even though I don't even know what the experience is. And then I just sit back and I watch how these breakthroughs are coming and they never come quite the way that I've defined them, but they're usually better than I've defined them. And I think the reason is because I persuaded my mind for breakthroughs.

Yes.

And so I was thinking of Robert because I persuade myself continually that I'm going to maximize or optimize any situation that I'm in. But then I just let reality present itself to me. And then I say, well, there's one, there's another one, there's another one and it works. But therefore I've invested a great deal to set up the situation so that the best possible thing can happen. And it's always a surprise. I mean, it's not like it's predictable. What's predictable is that the experience is.

Going to be a great spirit.

And I'll contrast that with what I see with a lot of people. And I even see it in my program. I see it with people, you know, and we're getting big. You know, I've noticed a trend that as we've gotten bigger as a company, we've started to, to attract companies that are our size or bigger. So we're about 130 team members now. We're in three countries, we operate in 10 cities. But I've noticed people who are incredibly successful come in, but they still have A mindset that I would call a consumer mindset. And I like to contrast the consumer mindset with what I call the transformer mindset. And the consumer mindset is that the world is supposed to do it for you. Okay? And you retain three mindsets. The one mindset is a critical mindset. So you retain the right to criticize what's going on. And number two, you retain the right to complain about what's going on, and then you retain the right to blame. So it's criticize, complain, and blame. And it's amazing to me that entrepreneurs have gotten to such a high level of success with those mindsets. But the problem is nothing's ever good enough for them. Nothing's. Nothing ever. Nothing ever matches their ideals. Okay? So I don't have any ideals. What I have is measurement. I have persuasion. Then I have measurements of how well my pre suasion has identified things I didn't even know I was looking for. The opposite of that is what I call the transformer mindset that you go in and you transform the actual experience that you're having. And there's three mindsets there, too. And the first one is that you contribute. Contribution is just the magic password. You're going to go in to actually create value for other people. Number two, you're going to collaborate with other people. So to the degree that teamwork is important, available during that period of time, then you can collaborate. And number three is that you create. You just create new things. And so to me, at 74, I'm not trying to get anywhere. I'm just trying to expand my transformer mindset of contribution, collaboration, and creativity. And so I feel that time is actually slowing down for me. It's not speeding up.

Wow.

Well, so you, what are your thoughts? Because you're a big fan of Ben Hardy.

Of course.

Ben Hardy.

I'm a big fan of Where's Ben?

Did I mention. Yeah, did I. Did I mention that I'm a big fan of Ben Hardy?

You just did.

Yeah.

You just did. And so Ben, you know, with his book Willpower Doesn't Work. And I know he's doing a book with you. Who not how.

Who not how. Yes.

And Ben is a great example because people say, why is it that you do certain things with certain genius? Like there's some sort of click or favorism. There is a click within Genius Network. And it's like, well, a lot of that depends on the energy, the collaboration, the contributions of people. It's not just like, hey, I'm going to Single out. See people that I really attach to, single themselves out by just exhibiting great sort of. I mean, you're the same way. That's why me and you do so much together. Because you hear the same thing at coach about me. Like what? You know, like people that don't understand our relationship probably, you know, they kind of have their own story about it. So Ben writes about willpower doesn't work. And he writes about the environment and creating the sort of environment and what you've always been a master at. And I think from the very early stages of strategic coach. Strategic coach in a lot of way is AA for workaholics that are super high achievers. And you bring them in and you talk about free days and focus days and buffer days and that if you want to a lot of your perspectives, that a entrepreneur that is too tightly scheduled cannot transform themselves.

Right.

And you give people freedom. And a lot of entrepreneurs, if you ask, why are you. What do you want? Well, I want freedom, but a lot of them don't have any time freedom. A lot of them don't have relationship freedom and a lot of them don't have money freedom. Although compared to the average person, you could probably say that they do. And you give them ways to think about freeing that up, but you create an environment and you show them how to actually set that environment up. And then you surround yourself with people that support you in what it is that you want to do. And before I quit rambling here, I remember hearing from you, if you spend a lot of time working on what you're weak at, your weaknesses, at the end of your life, you have a lot of really strong weaknesses. And so your whole thing is focus on your strengths and surround yourself with unique ability teams so you go to environments where you can tap in the capabilities. So Genius Network for you, from my perspective is you're coming to find other people that can just. You're not going to spend the time, the money, the energy, you're just going to go and latch onto that and access it and collaborate with it and continue to build and grow yourself. But a lot of this has to do with the environment and how you self select that.

Yeah. And it's a skill. So, you know, I mean everything, it starts with mindset and mindset alters your behavior. So when you look at people's behavior, it tells you nothing unless you go back upstream and look at the mindsets that actually determine the behavior. And what I reflected in my description of my first five years in Genius.

Network with Babs and by the way.

Babs, right here, Bab Smith is my partner. And, You know, unless I know Babs, I haven't created Strategic Coach. I mean, we actually had T shirts last year on her birthday that said, no Babs, no Coach. And I said, my life is. Has two stages. It's BB and ab and it's before Babs and after Babs. And if I hadn't met Babs, I'm just a smart drunk, worried about the rent, you know, and, you know, and I say that honestly because I really required that collaboration with a person not only who is my partner in my personal life, but my partner in my business life. And I'd gone through a lot of setbacks and a lot of frustration until I met Babs. And then, bang, there was just this huge jump and it's gone. We're into our collaboration. We're really into our 35th year, going into our 36th year. But when Babs and I came to Genius Network, the very first thing you said when we started, you said, you're paying 25,000 for this, and if you don't get $250,000 of value out of it in the first year, I won't let you come back. And so I was sitting there And I said, 10 times, 10 times. And we had done a thinking exercise in Coach, which is called the 10 times mind expander, where you go back 25 years to when you were one tenth of where you are. And you talk about the stages of growth that got you to where you are, and we just create a structure. And people say, amazing how I did that. And I said, now you're 10 times where you were when you were 1 10th. But could you have predicted how you were going to get to 10 times back then? And of course you couldn't. And I say, okay, so we're going to do it again. Now I've given you proof that you've already gone 10 times. And now what I'm going to say is, we're going to pick a date in the future when you're going to go 10 times, and then we're going to work on that. But I came up to you after the first. I said, you know, I'm going to create a whole program called the 10 Times Ambition Program. And it happened in the first half hour. And at the first break, I came up to you and I said, I just got my money back. And it turned out that that first insight in the first hour of my first 25k after 5 years, had netted a $16 million. 16 million, which turned out to be a 64 times return on investment. And it was just bang, I got the idea. And then so when I started 100k, so first 5 years going to be a million dollars. I said, we're going to get $64 million. And the very first workshop I was in, I met Ben. And all my career in coach, I've been looking for the writer who just is not an inside writer, but an outside writer who just totally gets what we're talking about. And he's got a reputation and he's got an audience and he's got a reach and he's got an agent and he's got a publisher and they have a big budget. And I say, bingo, there's my writer. And so we have our first project. It'll be written during the next year. And then we go and Ben said, you know, after this book, can we do another book? I said, you bet.

That would be a bad idea.

Yeah. So I sweetened the deal and I said, ben, all the money we make on these books is your money. I just want the customers who come from your books. So just like that. And it's going to be 64 times. I know it'll be. Plus, I've gotten an enormous amount elsewhere. I thought. I mean, I've talked to John Ratliff a lot over the years about his thinking about this packaging your company as if you're going to sell it. And I tell you, the two hours yesterday afternoon, you know what it was for me, that was a threshold. Two hours for Genius Network. Because you're now jumping where we're not just talking about entrepreneurs, we're really talking about entrepreneurial companies. And I just felt it was like time for Genius Network. Everybody put their big boy pants on and actually started thinking about companies. So it's really great. So that's what I'm looking for. I'm looking for $64 million of value.

Every time I come here, which is okay. So I love that for one.

You just have the intention and then you keep your eyes and ears out because. Because you don't know where the actual opportunity is going to come from.

To the people in the room. There's a lot of resources, human resources. Here are some of the greatest. I mean, Chip Frank's with Joe Volunteer. It's basically taking human resources that want to contribute and creating a mechanism for people to link them with each other because so many. So this is a room filled with incredible genius wisdom and knowledge. It's a tribe of Tribal leaders. So advice on how to build yourself as a better entrepreneur, how to get the most out of this community, because both of you have done a great job with it.

Dan, you go first.

Yeah, I mean, I think I just.

Have a couple insights about. First of all, you have to realize that being an entrepreneur is a life sentence.

And you can't go back. How many of you know that once you've gone, gone out, you can't go back. So, you know, I mean, you're. You're condemned to be an entrepreneur for.

The rest of your life.

And a lot of people want to play it half and half. I could do what I'm doing as an entrepreneur or I could do something else.

And I want to tell you it's not true.

You have no. You have no other option except to continue on the way you are. So my feeling is make it fun, you know, and so go for the.

Part of your entrepreneurial experience that tells.

You that you're always energized. And the other thing is, if everybody could just cut off today thinking about their entrepreneurial future as an individual future and start thinking about it as a team future. So I'm surrounded by teamwork. I'm not in control of any one of my work days. I walk in in the morning, and I am controlled and managed by other people from morning till night. I'm told when to show up, I'm told what to do, but I am in charge, so I'm not in control. So one of the biggest things for entrepreneurs, you have to give up the idea of control and switch over that you're 100% in charge, but other people are 100% in control. Okay? It's like the entertainment industry or the sports industry. The top performers are not in control, but they are in charge. And, you know, and so. And the other thing is, don't try to have a complete life, okay? The notion of bucket list and completing your life and leaving a legacy are all signals to the universe to take the parts back, okay? I want to die in the middle of eight projects. I mean, if I die, I want.

It to be a surprise.

And I'm in the middle of eight projects, and there's no grieving for the first two or three weeks because people are so pissed off about the mess. I mean, this whole notion, oh, I'm going to bring my life to completion, you know, I mean, this is a death signal, you know, I mean, you're talking yourself into the grave, you know, let you know death needs no assistance. You know, death needs no assistance. And I'm not giving death any assistance. And, you know, we have fun with Peter and I have really fun with the longevity thing because people, you know, every time we talk about this 156 and 700 thing, the podcast goes right off the charts. Every podcast people are really interested in this topic. How many of you, if you could extend your active working career for 25 years right now, right at the top, you'd actually make a lot of investment to actually do that.

Well, I want to see who doesn't want to.

Yeah. Who? Yeah. Who's wrapping it up within the next 12 months because I'd like to buy a life insurance policy on you and have me as the beneficiary.

So great.

Advice for entrepreneurs. Listen. We are linear and local thinkers. Our brains, the 100 billion neurons in our brain, the 100 trillion synaptic connections were evolved on the savannas of Africa hundreds of thousands and millions of years ago. And so we have these cognitive biases. And what we do is we take our past and we extend it into the future. And that's a linear extension. And that puts a self imposed limitation on us on what we can do. And so I'm going to ask you to think about, are you putting those self imposed limitations on your life?

Right?

Because are you building a business for what used to be possible versus what is now possible?

Right?

A world of infinite information, infinite computing speed, massive amounts of capital, all of these things. So in that world of it's the best time ever to be alive in a world of near infinite opportunity, in a world of abundance, my question to you is, are you doing the most important thing that you can be doing, right? Are you doing something because it's a quick buck because you inherited it, because you have a partner you're obligated to, or are you doing something that gives you joy?

Right?

I cannot believe the shit I get to do.

Right?

I feel so grateful, so lucky for, like, being able to dream about opening up the cosmos with planetary resources or extending the lifespan of with human longevity, or the investments I make with bold capital. I mean, I'm a kid in the candy store and I'm like, just excited about life. And every one of us has that ability, right? You can make a career out of anything. What did you want to do as a kid? If I gave you a billion dollars of cash and said, go make the world a better place, what would you do with it? That's, you know, what I learned from you, Dan, is who do I make? Who do I Want to be a hero to those kinds of thinking is where your massively transformative purpose is. And so take a second, one second and answer this question. In your heart and your soul, are you doing right now the thing that is the most important thing in your life that gives you joy? Are you doing what you're doing right now out of obligation? Or is it truly your calling in life that at the end of your life you can look back and say, wow, I'm so lucky to have worked on that? If you're doing the thing that is your greatest joy and that you feel so lucky to be working on, commit to 25 years. Go 10 times bigger.

Right?

And by the way, going 10 times bigger means letting go of the past. You can go 10% bigger working harder. You can't go 10 times bigger working harder. You have to reinvent the entire business to get 10 times bigger. If you're doing something out of obligation, consider selling it, letting go of it, dumping it, giving it to a friend, and making the white space to live and to live a full life.

You know, I have a question I want to ask both of you guys. See if I can phrase this correctly. Where would you put ethics and ethical behavior in. In the world of entrepreneurship or marketing? You know, because a lot of times we think that success equates to unethical behavior, right? You always see a lot of people that are cheating and lying and so on and so forth, or that if you're too ethical, you're out the door. Right? So, and I know that you guys each have a real kind of deep take on this. Let me ask you, Dan, start off. Where do you put ethics and ethical behavior in the realm of marketing or success?

Yeah, it's really interesting. And I'll join another word to ethics, and that's morality, that the two go together. Ethics, I mean, morality has to do a lot with your mindset, the values that you have. But ethics is really about your behavior. Really. Ethics is your morality in action. And but one of the things I've noticed, I read an article once about inner city kids, you know, who are, you know, who could be dead at 8, they could be dead at 12. South Chicago. So part of the year, I live in Chicago because our main US Company is right near o'. Hare. And. But it's a war, a war zone down there. You know, there's two postal zones. America is really organized. If you go to any big city, you go to the police, you know, police headquarters and police headquarters, and you want. You talk to the officer in charge of violent crime, you know, in the city. And you bring a map and you give him a marker and you say, where should I not go in this city? And they always do it by postal zones. And in Chicago, it's two postal zones. Isn't it interesting how Americans organize crime according to Post? I mean, what a country, you know? And anyway, so those kids do not have enough certainty about life that they can think more than 24 hours at a time. So when there's a possibility of stealing something, their first thought is, can I get into trouble in the next 24 hours? So what I came to is that ethics is a function of your time perspective. Okay? If, on the other hand, you have a time perspective, if I do this now, what's it look like 10 years from now? The behavior that you will exhibit during the next 24 hours will be ethical. And the reason is you don't want to be doing something today that costs you ten years from now. And so my sense is that ethics is really a function of time perspective.

Ah, very interesting. One of the things I really admire about both of you guys, Dan, is you guys both have really interesting perspectives on stuff. You know, it's not just the usual that you read in books, you know, like, who else would come up with that? I mean, I think you're absolutely right, you know, but over to you, Joe, what's your. What's your take on ethics and business?

Yeah, you know, it's.

It's considering for even the carpet cleaning industry, which is where I started off. I created a thing called ethical services. And I tried to. I've always tried to use the whole concept of, like, Dan. I asked Dan years ago. Let me start with this, and I'll try to share several different ideas in a little riff that I'll do here. So I asked Dan what's, you know, what's your favorite definition? What's your definition of selling? And he. He just blurted out, and I don't know how many years ago this was now, Damn, probably like 15 years ago or something. And he said, selling is getting someone intellectually engaged in a future result that's good for them and getting them to emotionally commit to take action to achieve that result. Now I have that memorized because I thought about it quite a bit when he said it, and I. Yeah, Dan always has these very interesting quotes that he shares. And let me just say this, too. I probably should have said this early on. Do you know between both of you, do you know how many, God knows how many hundreds of thousands of people, maybe in the millions range, that both of you have inspired, encouraged, have them show up to face incredible difficulties with, you know, maybe not in the funnest of ways, but just the ability to get through life when life is very difficult. I mean, both of you have been such incredible mentors and role models. If you've intended to be that or not. It's just what you are. I mean, by the very nature of. I mean, Jesus, just look at how many reviews the War of Art has, right? And how much both of you impact people. And so, you know, everyone has something to sell. You know, part of it is a bigger future, though, in a way, to look at life. And so when I asked Dan that definition, I started asking my clients, you know, what do you think are the most important words in the definition? Getting someone intellectually engaged in a future result that's good for them and getting them to emotionally commit to take action to achieve that result. People would say engage, they would say action, they would say commit. And most people didn't get the three words good for them. And I always thought you can get someone intellectually and emotionally engaged in porn and shitty food and doing something damaging. I mean, what I've liked about the War of Art is it's always about the higher self, not about the lower self. I mean, you can, you know, yeah, you can be a degenerate and you can get involved in vices and all that that does. There's, you know, that, as you say, you know, resistance will give you a free pass on that sort of stuff. And so as it relates to ethics, I always think of what's good for someone. And would you sell it to your best friend? Would you sell it to your mother or your father with the assumption you like your mother and your father for someone that you really care about? If you're in a situation where someone's going to go down a bad path or something, that could be damaging or it could be rotten or it could be scandalous or not good for them, and you cared about that person, you would try to intervene. You might use words, you might use a challenge, you might use an intervention. You might try to block them from harm's way. And so who are we in the best of terms? When we care about someone, we're selling, we're being persuasive, but we're doing it with the mindset of we're trying to care for this person and we're trying to protect them. So when it comes to. I think everything in my life is about connecting Connecting other people with ideas, with each other, with things that make them better not always feel good. Like, for instance, you wrote the. The Warriors Ethos, which you recorded in 2011. Everyone would be very. Their lives will be enhanced if you download that book and listen to Stephen read it. It's called the Warriors Ethos. Like, I think it's less than 90 minutes, and it's great. And you talk a lot about, you know, Spartans and you have such. This deep knowledge of so much of history. But anyway, you know, there's. The whole goal of making someone better is not always going to make them feel better. It's not always about happiness, right? And we live in this culture. Everyone wants to pursue feeling, you know, sweet and loving and all that sort of stuff. But the fact is, human progress oftentimes takes enormous effort and in many cases, sacrifice. And so when it comes to connecting, there's true connecting, because you're either in communication with someone or you're trying to escape, you know, and when you are connecting with someone, you care about them, you're operating from a good place. Connecting, though, is when you're conning people and making it look like connecting. So there's connectors that use con artistry and they con people and they blow smoke up their ass and they sell crap and they make promises and they. They don't that they have no intention of delivering on, or they're selling crap on a box, and the very best thing you're going to ever see from them is sales pitch or their marketing. But then there's real people that when they sell something to somebody or when they offer something to somebody, they actually really care about that person being better off as a human. So for me, I don't. There's a difference between situational behavior and situational ethics. I mean, you might tell really crude, dirty jokes to your buddies that you would, you know, were in the military with. That could be vulgar. That could be inappropriate to many people, but you might not say that to someone's grandma. Most people have drank beer. Most people have gone to church. You usually don't drink beer in church, although I'm sure people drink beer in church. There's a difference between situational behavior and situational ethics. And I like people who understand the distinction and who operate that way because we've all met people that, man, they just put on a great show. They really act like they care about you, but they're using narcissists or sociopaths or they have just created a value system, you know, that is different Than, you know, the ones that we made it adhere to. And the weird thing, and I'd like to ask you guys about this, you know, as I'm rambling here when I'm thinking in my mind is that I think most people think they're right. It's that saying that, you know, we judge others by their actions, we judge ourselves by our intentions. And I, I first heard that when I don't know if you bought. Well, Dan, I know you know Harvey McKay. Do you happen to know Harvey McKay?

No.

Stephen, he wrote a book years ago, his most famous book he's written a bunch of books was called how to Swim with the Sharks without being Eaten Alive.

I've heard of the book.

Yeah, yeah. Sold millions of copies. And he's now 90 years old and he's a dear friend of mine. And so Harvey, he was doing the small event that he invited me to. It was like kind of a brainstorm with a bunch of, but a bunch of business owners. And one guy was, Chris Widener was talking and he said to the, to the group, he's like, how many have ever been ripped off by someone? About half people raised their head and he's like, how many of you ever ripped off anyone? And no one raised their head and.

He said, he goes, huh?

He goes, that's interesting. He goes, you know why? He goes, because you know, the reason you've been screwed by someone, but you don't think you screwed anyone is we judge ourselves by our intentions. We judge others by their actions. And I thought about that quite a bit and we all, like you could intend to do the right thing, but do your actions actually show that? So I think it takes a deep level of awareness and looking at the byproduct of your behavior and your, you know, because all of us have times where we're loving and we're tearing and we're doing well in life and others where we're desperate and we're self centered and we're tired and we're exhausted and we're maybe taking advantage. And so part of it is not that there's some perfect, you know, angel human that's always operating out of, you know, perfect ethics and morality. It's just being able to set up a way you operate and way you behave and the way you conduct yourself in your character. Like my whole book is not about capabilities, even though I share a lot of them. It's about character. My goal of my book is to not just build, you know, Hitler had enormous capabilities. I'd say it'd be really hard to say his character was a good character. I mean, look at the destruction that some of these people. You know, when, Dan, you were talking earlier with Stalin and Mussolini, I mean, they all had capabilities. You don't rule a country. You don't do what these people did without capability. Some of the smartest marketers I know have enormous capabilities, but their character is kind of shit. And so, but that's my opinion, because if you were to ask them their intentions, they all think their value system is their value system. So there's a lot of den of thieves. It's. I grapple with this, you know, one person's freedom fighters and other person's terrorists. So, you know, what is it? But those are my thoughts. That's, that's at least some of my thoughts about ethics and morality is what's the byproduct of what your life is about and where it leaves people? Does it leave the world and people and, you know, around you in a better place or does it cause destruction?

But I think you would say, Joe, that like as a, as a marketer or an entrepreneur, that the more, and I'm sure you would say the same thing, Dan, the more good you can do, the better it is for you. For even for your, your own selfish interests. Would you agree with that?

I would totally agree with that. And Dan, I'd love to, love to hear your thoughts on it. I have more thoughts on it, but I want to kind of share.

Well, I think the other thing is that there's a matter of leading a very complicated life for a simple life. And I'm a straight ticket Republican ever since I could vote in Canada, I'm a straight ticket conservative. But one of the, one of the presidents that I admire most was Harry Truman. And after, you know, because he's the one that had the big decisions, you know, I mean, so many big decisions. And you know, and I remember there's a story, it might be apocryphal, but the day after Roosevelt died, of course, he was sworn in as the president and he met with Roosevelt's cabinet. And he came in and he said, I know what you're thinking. You're thinking, you know, here comes Harry, a hick from Missouri. And he said, and you're used to Roosevelt, one of the great gods of American politics. But he says, here's the facts of it. I'm as powerful as he is because I'm President of the United States. And guess what? You're still cabinet secretaries and I can fire you just as easy as he could fire you. And it just put everybody straight because he knew they were going to scheme against him. He knew what they were doing because they schemed against Roosevelt. They do that. But he had a great saying. He says, always tell the truth. It's more economical. You only have to remember one version. And I think that ethics is a form of truth and that is you can be the same person in all situations. And I think that, you know, a lot of people, they have to check out their surroundings to figure out who they're going to be in that situation, or they have to figure out who they've told what, what, make sure that, you know, they're keeping their story straight. And their story is so complicated, it's very, very hard to keep it straight. Yeah. And I said that that all comes at the price of what you're really good at. You know, that comes all that. I mean, if you do that, you're totally non creative. You're a totally reactive human being. And I think that ethics gives you a very simple, energizing path into the future where you only have to be the same person all the time. Yeah.

I mean, another way of looking. I haven't really thought this one through. I'm going to be blathering as I say this, but another word for it, it seems to me, could be authenticity in the sense of when you open your mouth and you speak, you're really saying what you really think and not what you think is the other is going to create a, you know, a favorable impression in somebody else's mind.

Yeah, one of your, you know, in the, in your current book, the book's coming out, you were talking about what your attitude has to be when you're writing and you can't think about, oh, this is, is this a great book? Is it, you know, is it, you know, am I, you know, is this really going to move people? You say, I'm going to throw myself completely in it and I'm going to finish it, you know, and get the book. And I remember Reagan. I'm kind of a Reagan type of writer. And when Reagan, you know, got to governor, I don't think so much when he was governor of California, but when he became president, people say, yeah, everybody laughs at me because of the movies I was in, you know, what about crappy movies? And he said, well, I have to tell you, back then, they didn't tell us that the movie had to be good. They said they didn't want the movie good. They wanted the movie Tuesday.

Yeah.

And it's kind of like that. And I think that's a copywriter's attitude, you know, in other words, you got a deadline. I mean, people say Shakespeare, you know, Shakespeare. Oh, I could be like Shakespeare. I said, there's two things you have to remember. He did it for money and on deadline. Yeah, yeah.

And Dickens, like Dickens, too, that was.

Writing, you know, installed it for money. And so my feel. My feeling is that. And Joe brought it up at the beginning. Joe brought it up, or you brought it up, Stephen, that the best way to be really good in yourself is have it be for value for other people. In other words, that you have in mind who you're doing this for. And so is it going to make a difference in that person's life? And how are they going to feel after? You know, I mean, how are they going to feel about the value that they got from you? If you have your emphasis on that, you're taken care of. You know, your friend who is in 24 that you visit with in Sundance, the actor. Glenn Marshall, and he's fascinating guy. And I have to say that if you looked at his life, you know, he's, you know, Hollywood. Hollywood actor. He does movies, he does TV and everything. I bet he is the most fully employed actor in the history of the United States over the last 50, 50 years. And he was telling Joe, he said, well, you know, he says, you got to look at it from the standpoint of a director. He said, he says, you can't look at it from any other standpoint of the director. And the director needs two or three stars to even get on the board. He said, so I'm not a star. Okay. And then he comes down to about number five, and he said, who am I going to put in number five? And he says, I'm always number five in the directors. In the directors. And he said, I always prepared. I always show up on time. I'm always a great team member. And he said, I'm always grateful and thankful for every role I get. And then he's employed nonstop for 50 years because it isn't about him. It isn't about him that when the director gets to number five, oh, we'll put in Glenn, because that's an easy one. And my sense is the other thing is also to know your value to other people and what can they always count on you for? You know, I spend a lot of time saying it can be a hard one, you know, yeah, what can. You know, I always show up on time. I'm always prepared I always come up with something new, and my team just depends upon that. My clients.

By the way, I was going to ask you, Stephen, do you know who Glenn Morshauer is?

No. No.

Yeah, so he's not, like Dan said, he's not like some, you know, a list celebrity, but.

No, that's why he doesn't. That's why I saw his.

His face.

I'm sure I would know, but every director. Every director everywhere knows who he is.

Yeah. Let me share a story that Dan.

Knows this one, but years ago, me and. Me and Glenn were speaking at an event in Las Vegas, and it was. I think it was 2009. 2000. Yeah, I think it's around 2009, 2010. And Glenn has been in more military roles than any living actor. And so he's. Yeah, he was on every episode of 24. Other than Kiefer Sutherland, who was the main star, he was on every episode of 24. And at the time, there were pictures of Kiefer Sutherland on People magazine, I believe, National Enquirer, basically all the tabloid type of magazines on the COVID with him drunk on the sidewalk outside of the Viper Room in L. A. And I was asking him, I said, so what's.

You're asking.

You were asking Glenn, correct?

Yeah, I was asking Glenn, what's the story on Kiefer? He goes, well, now that he's been outed, he goes, you know, I can maybe say a few things. He said, a great guy, super professional, shows up, does a great job. Everyone likes working with him. Awesome guy. And he said, at the end of, you know, at the end of his. The day, he finds it sometimes easier to sit and hang around and, you know, drink in his trailer and on set than go home to his mansion alone. That's. He said. And at this point in Kiefer's life, he goes, his fame is globally inescapable. He said, there's nowhere on the planet that he could go without being recognized. And he said, you know, a single piranha won't do much damage, but a swarm of them will take down a great creature. And he said, if you get into this business. He was referring to the entertainment business. Without knowing who you are, it will misinform you. That was the statement he made. And I was like, yeah. I go, that's really interesting. And when I first met him at Sundance, we were having lunch, a friend introduced us, and all these people were coming up to him asking for autographs. And I said to him, I go, does that ever bother you? And he Said, he goes, you know, sometimes, you know, if you have to really be somewhere in a hurry, it could sometimes be challenging. He goes, but I am. He goes, I wouldn't even have a career if it wasn't for these people. He's like, I am so appreciative that anyone likes what it is I do. He goes, how would I even do it, what it is I do without these people that like what I do, like my work. And appreciative. He goes, why on earth would I have anything other than gratitude for these individuals? And he had an incredible work ethic and he was gen. And I've, I've seen him in many situations. And he is always loves his wife, is just a super caring, grateful, appreciative person. And therefore he gets roles and gets opportunities that others do not, because he just comes from that place. But he also has done a tremendous amount of work on himself and he's really quite aware of, you know, don't take yourself too seriously. You know, like my dear friend, you know, Dave Keckage, who unfortunately passed away at 78 years old last year from kind of a malpractice surgery. It was horrible. And Dave wrote, you know, he was my friend who was paralyzed from the chest down for half of his life. And he had one of his credos. He had 100 credos called kekich Credos. He had an interesting last name. And he said, things are seldom as bleak as they seem when they're going wrong or seldom as great as they seem when they're going, well, lighten up. You'll live longer. You know, just having the state of mind on how you approach things.

Hey, I hope you're enjoying this video. And I want to let you know that I have a new book that's come out, and if you'd like to get it absolutely free, there's a link below in the description. Or you can wait till the end of this video, or you can Simply go to joe'sfreebook.com and you can get.

A copy there if we can go back and pick up on the ethics, the ethics topic. So I, you know, I looked at your biography. So I looked and I, you know, I got to the end of your biography, I said, oh, another guy who. To a university. And these were all the classes he took, all the, all the, you know, the different occupations you were in the oil fields, you were, you were a fruit picker, you know, and you did air and B. Airbnb in your own car or somebody else's. Car and everything else. So lots of different kinds of people, lots of different kinds of situations, including Hollywood. You know, being in Hollywood and, you know, being in the, you know, movie, writing scripts and writing books and everything else, but from the standpoint is that ethics in one area of life is the same as ethics in another area of life.

Definitely.

There isn't any industry that's more ethical than any other industry.

No. And like you were saying about the actor, your actor friend. I mean, showing up and being ready to, you know, hit. Hit your mark and say your lines and. And not, you know, be shafting anybody else is at least as important as talent, you know, and. Because somebody will.

Somebody will bring you back, you know.

And you will bring them back. You know, that's really like.

Joe, you.

One of the things you've always said, and this actually comes from Dan, too, that part of being an entrepreneur is not only doing what you want to do, but doing it with the people you want to do it with, you know, and so in order to be with those people, you have to be for them what you want them to be for you. Right. You have to show up for them and deliver the goods for them and be somebody that, you know, that's. That's ethical. Right. That's not gonna throw their buddies under the bus when. When the heat gets applied, you know. Well, I mean, I just want to say this before I forget it. You were talking about how we judge other people by their actions, but our own selves by our intentions.

Yeah.

And that one of the axioms in. In screenwriting or also in novel writing, in any kind of story writing, is that the villain never thinks he's the villain. From the villain's point of view, he's doing the right thing. Right. And that's. That's, you know, if you think of any of sort of the great villain speeches like Jack Nicholson's one in A Few Good Men, you know, where he says, you know, you can't handle the truth. And he, you know, he's the guy that, you know, basically, you know, okayed the murder of this young Marine.

Right.

But from his point of view, he goes, this wonderful, great speech that Aaron Sorkin wrote about, we have to stand on a wall. There are bad guys on the other side of the wall, and God damn it, you need people like me on that wall, you know?

No. So it was one of the finest movie speeches of all time, by the way. It's a great one.

Yeah.

But sort of ethics, too, in a crazy.

Oh, it is.

I'm sure. You know, if we had Putin on the, on that show right now, he would say, God damn it, the worst thing that ever happened was when the Soviet Union broke up. My people were crushed mentally by that. And psychological.

Greatest tragedy of the 20th century.

I'm going to bring the USSR back and I don't care who I have to kill or what I have to do to do it. And I'm sure that in his mind, he's a saint. And to, you know, tens of millions of Russians, he's a saint too. Not to the Ukrainians, but to the Russians.

It's an interesting thing.

I'm not sure what that has to.

Do with anything, but it's just a thought.

No, here's.

I mean, I think it's a lot.

To ponder about, like, what do we believe and why do we believe it and what are we really trying to do?

What are four or five of the best business or entrepreneurial lessons you've learned over your life that you feel have.

Served you the most?

I mean, when you were early on trying to figure out what to do, what were those things that you.

So whatever your position is, commit yourself to bringing your A game to it every single day. One of my publishers is HarperCollins. The former head of HarperCollins, Jane Friedman, started off as a secretary, but I bet you when she was a secretary, she was world class. How many people do you know? It's like, when I become CEO, then I'll bring my A game. So whatever you do do, lead without a title, outwork everyone around. You know more about what you do than anyone else. Put, you know, effort, like good old hard work is unbelievably important. Second, business building idea. You want to get your plumbing right. You know, so I take this in.

A lot of different.

Well, so you want to. Yeah, yeah. This is not a gi. A gastroentech intestinal tract piece of advice. It's really get your architecture right. You know, like the time to build your business is not when you're on fire. It's get the right people, get the right financial systems, get the right culture, get the right so get the architecture right. Third, entrepreneurship be all about creating value. There is a database of the world's happiest people called the German socio political panel Database. World's largest database of happiness happiest people. Yeah, it's not. It's not where they live, it's not what they eat, it's not what they do. They all see themselves as contributors of value. So make it your obsession and your mission. To be contributing value. And that just means if you're, if you're flipping pizza, you know, you're doing pizzas, like just say, I'm going to create great value for the people out there expecting my pizza. What else? Innovation.

Right?

Like, you know, it's so easy to become complacent and yet you want to say in a consistent basis, how can I do bring products out in the world or do work that scares me and that people would probably laugh at. And that's probably what you have to do. That's probably what you have to do.

That is a great insight right there. I mean because like early earlier about talking about earning things, confidence does not just happen. Like, oh, I'm going to think I'm confident and be confident. Because if you act like you're confident but you're scared, you're really kind of arrogant, you're sort of disguising it. But it starts with courage. Courage never feels good, but confidence feels good. But courage is usually what you have to go through when you're scared, when you're in that position. And then if you do it and you master it, then you get to a point where you feel confident and then you're, you know, then it's a good feeling. But there's the thing, a lot of people, they just don't want to have to feel any pain. They don't want to have to feel any fear, any uncomfortableness and they don't do shit in their lives in that, in that state.

Yeah, pain is the result of potential unexpressed. And why are so many people addicted to their phones? Why are so many people addicted to tv? Why are so many people addicted to chit chat versus executing around their goals and all the things we've talked about. They will sell you a story which is no, no, I love that TV show. I love my addiction to distraction, but it's unconscious. And I think this is like one of the most important things I wish people would understand which is most of us actually have a broken heart. We are in such pain as you're suggesting of potential betrayed. Why? Because as little kids we had such connection to love, such connection to talent, such connection to the meaning of life, such connection to our potential. And we could have done amazing things. And then our mothers, fathers, teachers, preachers, et cetera, et cetera. Well intentioned as the world is started matrix pulling the wool over the veil over our eyes. And we actually became hypnotized into believing that icons are cut from a different cloth. And what that did was it created this well of deep subconscious pain because we saw that self betrayal. And what do we do now? We keep really busy, busy being busy, always busy, busy. But it's an escape mechanism of a frightened person. And the real work of a leader and an entrepreneur, it's not building the external business that's all important. Like we could talk hours on the right team culture, like I take teach all that stuff. The real work of leadership and to be an icon. It's all within to get to a place where you own your power, you own your talent, you figure out your values. You don't care if people laugh at you, because if they don't laugh at you, you're playing too small. And then you go out in the world and you show up the way you can.

So how would you describe the successful entrepreneur? What are the characteristics of these people that truly make it? They make money, they make impact, they do it with integrity versus the ones that just flounder and kind of have jobs but call themselves business owners or entrepreneurs. I mean, what's the key difference between. I mean, there's a lot of differences, I know, and you've done this for many years, but like, what are some of the things that you see is just what makes a great entrepreneur?

Yeah, well, you know, you've got the kind of standard stuff everybody talks about, which is you've got this huge vision. You know, you're able to think 10x over everybody else. You've got this tremendous ability to be both disciplined and focused. And I don't think a lot of people think of entrepreneurs as being disciplined, but those that knock it out of the park have a lot of both of those kind of things. But what was interesting is this executive program I founded and ran for 15 years. I just made it a game to see if I could predict who coming out of that course would build the biggest, fastest companies. And I could. And it came down to something very simple. And that was those who were the hungriest to learn that had this really thirst for learning. And the thing we were talking about where Mark Cuban in his book, and I'd known mark for 30 years, but I didn't realize he's had this fundamental routine, this habit, this daily focus of reading three hours every day. And he talks about it in his book, Warren Buffet, 500 pages a day. Bill Gates, who we talked about in the Greatest Business Decision, his famous Think Weeks, where, you know, his record, 112 books, manuscripts, PhD thesis, white papers, Mark Zuckerberg this year in 2015's focus to read a book every two weeks. Eric Schmidt saying on the stage there at the Milken conference, what was key to him really helping scale up Google. We think he's going to say some really big fancy stuff. He said, no, shut my BlackBerry off every weekend and read a book or two. And so it's this. You can't have anything come out of your brain that you don't get in first. And it's this intense ability to learn and then act on it. Bias for action.

Well, so the key there, acting on it. Because there's a lot of people that will go to seminars, they'll read a lot of stuff. Stuff, they'll consume things, but they spend a lot of their time consuming and reading and less doing. So what is the action element? I mean, there are these unicorns that you can. Some of the people you mentioned, people could be thinking, well, I can never.

Do what Warren Buffett does or Zuckerberg.

I mean, I'm just a. Whatever, I'm a normal person. How do I apply that? Should I really read that much? I mean, what would be your response to that?

Well, first of all, I want to come back to this bias for action. You know, Tom Peters, who is my idol, he wrote the very first really popular business book, In Search of Excellence, and he was kind enough to endorse the first book on the COVID And he said, you know, looking back on the eight things that he found were key to building these significantly excellent companies. He said the only one of the eight that still holds, he believes, is this bias for action. And that's what most people miss. They have these dreams, but they don't really have visions. Vision is a dream with a plan that then you act on and then you have these fundamental routines like reading, like going over for three hours every day, like Steve Jobs did when he was launching his retail store. It's what an Olympic athlete has to do that reaches to the gold level is committing to getting up at 4 o' clock in the morning and practicing for three hours before they go to school. It's Jordan Spieth, who we've just witnessed have the most amazing year in 2015 that doesn't happen by accident. He had a big, hairy, audacious goal. I want to not only go to the Masters, I want to win the Masters. And then he had this discipline and focus to practice. Did you read some of the stories about where when you go over to his family store, he would pick yards between that and he'd hit the golf balls from yard to yard to yard I mean, this is crazy, this obsession, but that's what's necessary.

Well, and it is the thing that gives the edge. Well, you said something earlier today when you were talking to the EO group about having the, you know, not reading is no different.

Something along like having those who can't read. I mean, those who don't read barely have an advantage over those who can't. And. And I think we've lost a lot of that. Gotta wanna to learn.

Yeah, yeah. So how do you have four children?

We do.

What are you doing as a parent? Do you try to instill entrepreneurial values in them or do you just kind of let them be their own person, see if they kind of fall into that or what are. Some of. How does this apply to how you're a parent?

Some of the things you learn?

Yeah.

You know, I've always seen. Again, that's why I love being an educator. The word education educare means to draw out the genius. Your whole thing that's within everyone. And you know what? I'm purposely not focused on them being entrepreneurs. The founding fathers of the US said something interesting. We're soldiers so our children can be farmers, entrepreneurs so their children can be poets. And what I'm finding is interesting is all of our children have kind of gravitated towards the creative arts side, which by the way, is the one thing robots can be. Kind of the last things that robots are going to take over almost every other job. Accounting, lawyer, doctor. The kind of things that our generation focused on is being automated. So, you know, I think they've got to go with their own trends and I just want them to have this thirst to learn.

How would you define an entrepreneur? I mean, what's entrepreneur? I mean, I mean, I know the original definition. I don't know if you ever heard it, but I.

Well, you know, I don't know if you've ever heard my definition, but my definition is an entrepreneur is someone who's too incompetent to work for anyone else. And really, you know, I was. I had like big ideas. I had things I wanted to do and I'd get into a company and start working. I just go like, I can't work in this minutia. I have to like, no, I want to do this. And. And so I became somebody that wasn't a very good employee, you know, and so, okay, you know, it's kind of chip, you know, if you don't like the way we're doing things here, why don't you go do it yourself? And finally, I had no other option. It wasn't even a choice. It was like, if I want to feed myself, I got to figure something out.

No, honestly, I was in the same.

Boat when I started my own company. I was 22 years old. I could not work for other people. I just had this thing in me, even to the point where I, you know, was in debt for, you know, two years. Credit cards, just, you know, clean carpets, doing the hard manual labor. And I was even going broke doing it. And I was like, you know, there's so many ways to go broke. You know, sitting on a couch watching TV is an easier way to go broke than doing hard manual labor carpets.

But it was in me.

I was wired, and I wanted to do it.

And you learned probably something there.

Oh, my God. Yeah. And I think entrepreneurs, they solve problems for a profit.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's very good.

And like Dan Sullivan says, you just make it up and make it real. So you came up with all these things, and you actually made them real. And so there's a lot of people that will be watching this that will look at you as an incredibly aspirational role model of how to build and grow a successful enterprise. And they're trying to take their ideas and make them up and then turn it into something. And I remember saying this years ago in a seminar. If I would have known how difficult being successful in business was, I would have stuck with being a loser.

Except you have a passion. Exactly.

So, again, it's another version of advice you would give to the person out there that hasn't quite nailed it yet. And they're. And I say this because even the people that really have reached the top, most of them don't think they have.

Right.

There's never any top. Yeah, exactly.

And so the world's highest achievers live with the highest levels of dissatisfaction.

I mean, I agree with you. Yeah. I mean, not me, any. I chose not to. But I could see my mind moving into that realm if I wanted it to.

We'll get that. Well, that's something I want to highlight, too, then. I'd love to see speak to that mindset that you've had about that, because, look, if you're going to play the game, you might as well enjoy it as best you can, because a lot of times you could be winning but feel like you're losing totally based on how you frame it.

Right.

How you look at it. And so when I ask questions like, what would you say to a young person? The truth is, I'm really Talking about everybody, because this is all available to anyone that's willing to. To do it. So if someone is wanting to just become better and they're not hitting it, what advice would you give them? Or what do they need to do? They need to change their attitude? Do they need to look at a different business model? I mean, what are some of the factors? I know there's not just one answer, so I wanted to get some of your perspective.

Well, I go back, I can only say about me, but there was that time when I was like 18, when I just decided that I wanted to learn everything I could. And I think there has to be. Knowledge is based on the knowledge you already have. So the more you know, the more you know, I find that some people just aren't. They say this is. They say they want to be successful, they say they want to do it, but then they play their video games or they watch football games on Sunday or they, you know, they're not really driven. I think mostly because they haven't found their passion. And I think they haven't found their passion because either. When they were in university, they didn't take a myriad of courses to find out what was really easy for them, which is where their passion is, or they haven't read enough to actually find something they're passionate about. And it almost seems lame, like talking to people like, find your passion. But I think I would have made athletic clothing for no money my whole life. Just enough to feed my family, just enough to pay the mortgage would have been fine because that's what I was put on the earth to do. So I think it's up for people to get out there and find that. And as we've talked about before with the landmark, it's like figuring out what the blocks in my life were that had me view the world from a place of ultimate possibility, rather than being constrained from my past.

What scares you, if anything?

Well, I think the normal things, like one of my kids dying would be number one. I'm actually not concerned about climate change at all. I think the world is, like, moving at such a rapid pace, technology wise, that we're going to. We've got to solve for everything. It's coming. Like the knowledge that's on the web and the way people are able to crowdsource information and solve things at such a rapid rate, I think is far faster than climate change is occurring.

Yeah, well, I agree. And there's a lot of technology. And I will say this because I'm still, as far as I know Richard Branson's largest fundraiser. I've raised a few million dollars and a big chunk of that money has gone into things that have to do with climate change and the environment. And I've also been around a lot of people that are in that world that call themselves like the saviors of the planet. And this, that I don't find to be very, you know, very high integrity individuals. And I think a lot of it is used as fear tactics and things. And there's enormous solutions and I look at both sides and I'll interview people on to get completely different perspectives. And there's a guy that I interviewed, Alex Epstein, oh, very good, great guy. And he wrote a book called the Moral Case for Fossil Fuels. And it's very fascinating because he doesn't sell anything related to that field. He just took a look at how much propaganda is put out about climate change and things in this other side. Didn't have a voice to it. And of course his favorite book is Atlas Shrugged, one of my favorite books and one of your favorite books. And we can even maybe talk about that. But yeah, I mean, I think technology coming from the mind of entrepreneurs and the creation of things can solve almost all world problems. And I don't think we have a resource problem. We have a distribution problem when it comes to food and some of the greatest resources or human resources employed in a certain way. And if I, I don't know if anyone's ever described you this way, I think you are a brilliant deployer of human resources by empowering them in a certain way. Like the original definition of entrepreneur, the first time it was recorded in usage was in 1804 by a French guy named Jean Baptiste, who said an entrepreneur is an individual that takes resources from a lower yield to a higher yield. Yeah, from a lower level of productivity to a higher level of productivity. And so when someone thinks of, you know, there's an ax to chop down a tree and someone invents a chainsaw, they've made an invention. But I think when you take a human mind and you take it from here and you make it here, be more productive, higher integrity, more resourceful, more happy, that's entrepreneurship. And then you apply that to technology or anything where there's world problems, you can improve it. And there's plenty of people that use business principles to sell toxic foods, alcohol and tobacco, pharmaceuticals, things that are damaging. But there's a lot of other individuals that are what I would consider empowering and doing things that do good for people. And I think the way that I think of you, which is one of the reasons I wanted to interview you, is there's very few people that not only have transformed an entire industry and have made billions of dollars as a result of it, but have empowered literally hundreds of thousands of team members. Because when you take someone, get them to read that book or go through landmark or whatever sort of thing, you've not just improved that person's performance and their career, you've improved their family, you've improved their family's family and then their.

Community and then it's extraordinary how that works.

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