This Framework Sold $400M Of Product and Forced Pepsi To Change Their Diet Soda Feat. Craig Clemens

Within a year of that video coming up, Pepsi removed aspartame from their diet sodas. Because you're marketing. I mean, I wasn't the only one talking about it, but our video got something like 80 million views before Google banned it. And I wonder if Google banned it because of Pepsi or some of these food corporations. People didn't watch the whole video. They saw the thing about diet soda and Pepsi goes like a year later, their diet soda sales are trending down. They add aspartame back into diet Pepsi, but the sales are still going down. And I don't think they ever will know that it was because that second video I wrote probably, probably has like a billion views by now or something like that. It's been running for 10 years. We've changed the hook since then. But yeah, this, this sold, I don't know, $400 million or something worth of that supplement. Yeah, and got a lot of, bunch of, a lot of people stopped drinking diet Coke.

Today's guest is a masterful storyteller, entrepreneur and marketing visionary who has revolutionized the way business communicate and grow. Craig Clemons is a co founder of Golden Hippo, a company that's built some of the most successful health, wellness and personal care brands in the world. Under Craig's leadership, Golden Hippo has scaled to over 1400 employees, reaching millions of customers while maintaining its independence from outside investors. Craig began his career as a copywriter and quickly became one of the most sought after experts in creating messages that resonate, inspire and convert. His campaigns have generated over a billion dollars in sales, which they now do every year. And his influence has shaped the strategies of countless entrepreneurs and businesses across the globe. I'll be interviewing Craig today to uncover his unique insights on crafting stories that captivate audiences, build trust and drive meaningful results. So get ready to take notes as first he's going to give a short talk and then we're going to dive into his incredible journey and learn how to elevate your messaging, tap into the power of persuasion and create connections that truly matter. So please join me in welcoming the very brilliant Mr. Craig Clemons.

Thank you, brother. How you doing, Joe? Awesome.

How about you?

Thanks, thanks. I'm doing well. When I found out that I was going to speak today, I told Joe. I was like, look, I don't want to be the opener because, well, who's been to a comedy show? You see, they send out like the crappy comics beforehand. You know, they're designed to fail, they're designed to bomb. But then I Realized no matter what's happening, I'm going after Joe. So, you know, Joe, Joe. The material Joe provides with his looks alone is enough to get people laughing. And then, you know, the room's going to be better for me. So thank you, Joe, for having me and for opening up the floor so kindly. And, you know, hopefully the jokes will land a little bit. Okay, what am I doing here again? I forgot. Now you distracted me. He's actually very handsome. And I'm like, no, first I want.

You to talk about arcs and how that's become hacked.

Oh, wait, wait, wait. Don't spoil the talk. Okay, I remember now. No, no. Okay. Anyway, sorry, it takes me a minute to get going, and then I was told one of these is waters.

Is mine.

That's yours. That's yours. Okay. Okay, great. It's been a long morning, ladies and gentlemen.

Sorry.

Okay, so I've been writing copy, selling stuff online for, I don't know, 20 something years now. And I've always struggled in thinking about how to teach it, and I wanted to come up with a simple formula for how to do it. So finally, last week I did. And this formula I'm going to share with you is responsible for many billions in sales. But what I think is interesting about this formula is that it's not just my ads and sales letters that use it. It's actually the hidden secret behind any captivating sales message, whether it's another company. You guys will probably notice, actually, after I share it with you, that you guys are using this in your best creative. And if you look at creative you've tried, that has failed, it might be because you're missing a piece of this formula. I've hidden the formula in the story I'm going to share with you now, so pay close attention and see if you guys can pick it up. Okay? Sound like a fun way to figure it out? Okay, fantastic. I also have a special bonus for you guys is that I'm going to give you guys something even more valuable than that formula. It's actually more valuable than any piece of business advice I could give you because this is something that is going to help you in your relationships. And everyone knows if your relationships are falling apart, your business is hard to run. It's hard to, you know, keep yourself sane. Right? And so you're going to learn two things today. You're going to learn my best piece of relationship advice. And then if you pay attention, you'll see the formula. So question for you guys out there, the gentleman in the audience who here has shared a bathroom with a woman. Okay. As gentlemen will tell you, sharing a bathroom with a woman is not always easy. I'm sure the ladies have their version of this too. But, you know, you got the hair in the sink and, you know, curlers all over the place. And even getting in to use your own bathroom is quite an obstacle some days, right? So I met my wife in 2016. We shared many bathrooms together. And then finally we buy the house that has the two bathrooms, and we decide that this one's mine and this one's hers. And I'm feeling so happy that, you know, I solved that major problem. Except there's only one issue. Seems like every time I go to use my own bathroom, she's in it. And this is. This is weird because it's like the way it's layout. It's like there's the. The shared room and then there's two toilets, right? And they're like. They're like, I don't know. Then there's a shower in between. So they're like five feet apart. Mine's on this side. Hers is on this side. Whenever I go to use my own toilet, open the door and, like, she's in it. Like, wait, why don't you just. It's literally five feet away. What's going on here? You know, it was driving me nuts. So I thought, how can I fix this and make it so she keeps using her own? So first I asked, I was like, hey, you know, like, yours is over there. Why don't you just use that one? She's like, oh, I don't know. Why does it matter? You know, I don't know. But, you know, you have your own, so why not, right? So nothing. Doesn't do anything. So I said, okay, next time I go to the bathroom, I'm going to not flush. Maybe that'll keep her from going. So I go number one. Don't flush.

We'll have to grab you a mic if.

Check, check, check. Okay, I'm back. I'm back. Okay, so that. So that doesn't work. So I'm like, okay, I guess I'll try the other. Not flush. So I try the other. Not flush. And sure enough, I go and flush. Few days later, and she's in my bathroom again. She just doesn't even notice, right? So, like, okay, what if I pee on the seat? Every woman hates when the man pees on the seat, right? You know, or, I mean, maybe that'll work. So I purposely pee on the seat, and I just, like, leave it sitting there. And sure enough, I come in and she's still using my bathroom. What did she do? I don't know if maybe the housekeeper got to it first. I don't know. So when a man is in desperate times, your mind starts racing like, okay, what do I have to do? I started thinking of all these crazy ideas, like maybe if I installed like a water cannon in there or something, like a surprise. And then, then I thought about like other things I could leave on the seat. And I'm going to just stop right now with telling you guys where my mind is wandering.

So.

So at the same time, during this period of my life, I had reached out. I'm always trying to find people I can learn from in different areas of life. It's kind of how I originally found Joe. You know, back in the day, I used to actually be in a room like this taking notes when Joe and my business mentor Eben would share their marketing stuff. And I was literally the note guy. And I would write the notes and I'd send them to everyone on a Word file or whatever. So anyway, I heard about this guy in my town who's a 100 year old war hero and I tracked him down and he agrees to meet me for lunch. I just want to hear his wisdom, right, because like, you know how many hundred year old war heroes are there? So the day comes along, I'm supposed to meet him at this restaurant for lunch and I'm trying to get my things together and then my Uber doesn't come on time. And then like I get in the Uber and there's traffic and the guy's like sitting there and like the clock is ticking and I'm like, damn, I'm going to be like 25 minutes late for this guy. Carved out, you know, one of the last little. I mean, he doesn't have that many more lunches to have in his life. You know, he's having lunch with me and I, I'm taking up an extra 25 minutes of his time. So I get in the restaurant, I'm running the restaurant, and I see him sitting there. I'm like, I am so sorry. First it was the Uber didn't come, then the traffic and he's like, stop. Craig is always late. I was like, no, no, no, no, I'm not always late. It was like, you know, really like the Ubers, my house is. He's like, no, no, Craig is always late. Craig, you are always late. You're always late. And I accept that about you. And the first thing I'm going to share with you today the first piece of wisdom that has allowed me to have a marriage over 60 years, business partners for many decades, friendships that go back to my youth, is that if you want to have any of those things with anyone, any type of successful relationship, partnership, friendship over an extended period of time, you need to pick three things about that person that you hate that drive you nuts, and you need to accept them and realize they're never going to change. So when he put that to me, I thought, interesting. I immediately started thinking of things my wife did that she was probably never going to change. She's probably always going to use my bathroom, I guess, right? I mean, maybe the Canon thing would have worked, but you know, and then I started thinking, okay, what about me? There's probably. I mean, I actually am. I mean, Joe, am I always late? Maybe. I don't know. But you know, I'm definitely a little bit of a hoarder. I probably have a tendency to tell some off color jokes. You know, I got my things right. So I want to ask you guys to do exercise. Think about what are three things about yourself that someone who's going to be in some type of relationship with you for a long time would have to accept and think about what are three things about your partner? Do we got some partners in the audience? All right, yeah, let's go, let's go. What are three things about your partner that you can just accept? Because I tell you what, once I started accepting that my wife is always going to use my bathroom and that I'm going to go and see her eating like a meatball sandwich wearing my favorite pair of white sweats and I'm going to be mortified. But I'm just going to accept that, you know, things got a lot easier and I was just like, okay, it's fine. This is my wife. She's, she's great in so many ways. I can accept that she uses all my stuff all the time. So think about that. Write down two or three things for you and your partner.

Hey, I hope you're enjoying this video. And I want to let you know that I have a new book that's come out and if you'd like to get it absolutely free, there's a link below in the description. Or you can wait till the end of this video or you can Simply go to joe'sfreebook.com and you can get a copy there.

This isn't actually the point of the talk. I think it's a valuable thing to know What I am going to do is who's here with a business or life partner. Okay, cool. So I'm going to have the people who are here with a business or life partner come up and share the things about their partner that they've had to accept. No, I'm just kidding. Okay. Did anyone spot a formula in the story that I just told? Did anyone see a formula? Someone saw a formula. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Look at that. Look at that.

You got the hook. Hook.

Yeah. Yeah.

Okay, you. I'm going back. You identified a problem, told a story, opened a loop, continued the story, had a redirection, and then started to close the loop, and then we ended up in an exercise.

Yes, yes. Okay. This is good. This is good. All right. So the formula that I finally figured out, I do in all my sales messages and everyone else pretty much does too, because I think it's a universal storytelling formula that has probably been around, you know, as long as humans have been around to pass. Pass knowledge down. Remember, before there was writing, you couldn't carve that much. You know, before there was printing press, you couldn't make that many books. Before there was that, you couldn't carve that much into a stone tablet. The way knowledge was passed on was through stories. Right? So we're programmed to learn via stories. And I actually think I've stumbled across, like, a universal storytelling formula that many, many stories fall into, and some of them have different variations of, but. Yes. So the formula free to remember is hats. Okay. And it starts with a hook. So the way I started that out is one of my favorite hooks, one of the easiest hooks, and that is ask a yes question. So who remembers what? My question was, how many shared a bathroom?

Yes.

Most people are going to have had related to that experience. Okay, the next part of the story. Do you guys remember what I said next? I said, I have. And then I shared some things about the experience. Wait, what? Oh, use a black marker. Oh, okay. You know, I tested the blue and the green, and the green looked a little better, but. Okay, let's do. It's okay. Oh, okay. And now it's got, like a 3D thing too. Okay, Okay. So I shared some little anecdotes about sharing a bathroom that let you guys know that I have done that as well. Right. I talked about waiting for the other person to get out and, you know, hair in the sink and all the things so you guys could tell that I was aligned with you. So the second part is align. And this is basically revealing that you've been in their shoes. You know, actually I used to. So this is a, this is an upgrade of my old formula. And this used to be R reveal. I like a line as well. I don't, I don't have a preference, but R hrts doesn't make a word. So reveal is now aligned. But reveal is good. You're going to reveal. You've been there. You're going to align with them. They both work. But that's part two of the formula. Okay. Part three. Evan and I were debating this because this is actually really the first time I've taught this. Tell. Tell them what you discovered that changed your life or helped you get through this problem that you now share with that person. So you're connecting with them, you're grabbing their attention with a hook. You're connecting with them by saying like, hey, I have this issue as well and I'm going to tell you the thing that got me through it. So mine was some Zen mastery from a hundred year old war veteran. And then S is send. Send them to do something. Has anyone been to a Joe Dispenza seminar? So Joe Dispenza has a very unique way of teaching. He'll talk to you for five or 10 minutes and then he says, turn to your partner and tell them what you just learned. Sending people to do something is powerful because it makes them internalize what you just told them. And it also gets them moving and then it gives you control because they've just followed a command of yours. And if they're following your first command, they're more likely to follow your second command. That's the commitment and consistency principle that Robert Cialdini talks about, I think. Has he spoken for this group lately? Yeah, I've seen him at past groups. So my send for you all was write down one or two things that you or your partner do that the other person is going to have to accept if you guys are going to be able to tolerate each other for more than 10 minutes or whatever. Right. So that's the formula. So this can be applied to just about anything. I thought, Joe, should we do like a couple hot seat ish things? Who wants to plug their business into this? You can just tell me what your business is, we'll throw it in. All right.

I run an association for roofing contractors. It's application only.

Okay. This actually the only thing this doesn't work for is associations or roofing contractors. Perfect.

All right.

Okay. So it's application only.

Yeah.

Okay, got it. And what is the big issue that roofing contractors have dealing with the change.

That'S going on with our economy, regulations, and insurance.

Okay. Okay. So if you're to ask a yes question for the hook, you can say, hey, are you fed up with regulations and economical changes slowing down your roofing business?

Yeah, that would work. I have a bunch of them on our sales page, but yeah, that. Do you want me to rattle some off, or do we want to start with that one?

We can start with that.

Cool.

Yeah, I think it's more the. The formula that's important than the actual thing, because the answer is always that you'll put up three of these and then you'll test them, you know? Yeah, but there's different ways to do it, so I thought it could be helpful stress in different ways. So asking a yes question is a good one. Another hook I like is to make a statement that they will agree with. So we all get stuck with regulatory issues and economical changes that slow our businesses down. Everyone say yes to that, because that's literally what the last presentation was about. You get these statements that people have to agree with is another way to do it. Another great hook is to take the material from the yes question is a good way to come up with the initial thing, and then you can mold that. You can also take that piece of information. Now that is kind of the problem, and you can tell them something counterintuitive about it. You know, so maybe the hook is like, you know, my roofing business 10x in my small town, when the economy went. Went downhill and all my competitors were going out of business, you know, then. Then they're like, whoa, what's that? You know, and then be like, yeah, yeah.

I used to.

You know, I used to be like you and so many other roofing contractors where my business would rise and fall with the economy, and then regulations would hold me down. And. And then I met this guy named Joe Polish who was teaching me secrets on marketing and getting customers in my roofing business. And it's amazing. So, you know, go here to download the PDF and learn more. Something like that. Right. So it's really. That's. That's a. That simple of a plugin, and some of those you'll customize. You know, your tell might be a little different. You'll be like, you know, when I joined this association and I met other contractors, and I learned from Adam, who has been through all this, I was able to 3x my business, and I was able to step out of it and let someone else run it. So I had More time to spend my kids, you know. So that's, that's your, your tell and I want you to learn this. So download this PDF or give me your credit card now for $3,000. If you don't like it, you get it back in 30 days. Or comment roofing below if you want to learn how to explode your roofing business or share this with five friends. You know that love roofing like the send can be all these things. Doesn't matter so much what it is. That's why this works not just in sales letter format, it works on any platform. This is a great formula for an Instagram post, for a TikTok video, for a thread on X, all the things. So thanks Adam, that was a good example. Let's do one more.

So I have a medical technology company, it put up an app on Apple and Google. It basically was doctor driven, designed to help people with basically metabolic, metabolical diseases change their diet. So you go in, you take off the food you don't like, then it will build you a meal plan, give you the recipes, give you a grocery list and even download it into Instacart. So the biggest problem we have is actually explaining that.

Got it. Okay. The problem people are trying to solve when they come and download your app would be.

So this is the conundrum. So on one hand, it's designed originally for the doctor to give it to them. So they are trying to correct hypertension, maybe reoccurring hospital visits for heart disease. Yeah, so forth and so on.

So you said the doctor will tell them to download it.

Well, that's, that was the original plan. These are all doctors that figure. I just figured that it's the best shopping app ever.

Got it. All right, so I, that's so you.

Can go at it either way.

Yeah. And when you say best shopping app.

Ever, tell me you're sitting at home with your wife, it's Sunday night and you're trying to figure out what are you going to do for food next week. And if you don't do anything, you're just gonna eat the same thing over and over. So here you'd say, well, let's just go in and we've tick off all the food our family hates. So we don't like spinach, we don't like broccoli, we don't like this. So then with what's been ticked, what's left? They'll build you a meal plan. Here's, here's meals for three days, seven days, whatever you want and say, okay, that Looks good. So then you take another box and it gives you the recipes.

Got it.

And then you take another box, it gives you a grocery list.

Got it.

And then if you say, well, download an Instacart, Instacart will send you the groceries.

Yeah. Okay, so you actually have two angles you could approach your app from.

That's the conundrum. So with your ingenuity, tell me what resonates with you first and which I wish you pursue.

Yeah, well, I mean, the answer is always to throw up both of them in test and see we'll get some more downloads. Because if there's one thing I learned in, you know, doing this a long damn time is that I'm still wrong a lot. You know, some of the ads I've written that I thought are gonna be the highest winners tanked out of the gate and some of them I could rewrite and make work and some of them I couldn't. You know, so you can survey customers if you're only like, if you're forced to like put something up and it's gonna live forever, you know, in a place that doesn't let you test. Like if you guys post on, on X, does anyone post on X? Like threads on X platform, you know, you post your thread up and if it doesn't hit, you're kind of screwed. I mean, you can delete it and try it again a couple days later or whatever, but it doesn't have the same punch, you know, so in those situations, you want to ideally do testing on another platform, find out what works before you go on X. Or just survey customers and ask them like what's their favorite part of the thing or why they come in in the first place. You know, the two angles on that would be like, hey, have you had struggled to find great, great meals to feed your family? If so, I've been there. You know, we used to always make a meal and then little Jimmy wouldn't eat it or you know, my wife's diet sensitivities would come up and then we got this amazing app and so go here to download it now. The problem solution on the health side would be are you struggling with weight gain, indigestion, constipation, low energy? It might be because you're eating some of the wrong foods. I used to have the same thing. You know, I was eating what I thought was a healthy diet. I would only eat gluten free and dairy free milks and all that. But you know, I found the weight wouldn't come off and I would still feel tired all the time. And then I found this app that helped me diagnose what was an actual healthy food versus what the food companies are trying to pretend is healthy. Go here to download it now. You know, so if you look at, if you're gonna ask me which of those two categories to go into, I would say the, the urgent category, where people have urgent problems that's keeping them up at night is probably a higher likelihood of converting. So that's like, you know, if you're gaining weight, low energy and all that, like, that's higher priority than figuring out what to put in the dinner table. That's, you know, everyone's gonna kind of jump into and not complain about that has more urgency. So I would probably start there. But it's a good test. I like tests where you can do two things that are like very different. Like we're talking about, you know, it's like, is it a meal plan or is it a health app? Because if you're just testing different health app angles, you could lead with like, are you feeling constipated all the time? Are you feeling low energy all the time? There's like so many things and they're not going to have like, you will find some winners there. But if you test the meal plan versus the health app, like one of them is going to kick the crap out of the other, you know, it's going to be not even close. And then you have a broader idea of where of the category that is going to get the most impact. Does that make sense? Hopefully that's helpful. It's a tough one, you know, not knowing exactly what the, the main hook is yet. But you can use this formula to make hooks out of both of them.

When you, when you're writing copy or crafting an ad, I mean, you spent years honing this skill, learning how to do it. And what was it that helped you understand the psychology? Because I think of marketing and supplied psychology.

Yes.

So you had to go in and determine not only understanding the focus on what people want, not what you want, you know, it's what's in it for them. Right. Like you, you have to write in that way, you have to think in that way. I always, like Gary Halbert's saying, there's three things you need in order to sell something. You need a product or service. You need a sales pitch or a marketing message, and you need a delivery system. And what most businesses focus on is what they have to sell. How do they tell people about it? So be it Social media, be it books, be it podcasts, be it whatever. So I want to talk about psychology, then I want to talk about different forms of media. On how you deliver messages.

Yeah. So Gary used to say that you need to get on the phone. Did you go out again?

Your mic went up for check, check, check, check.

Okay, I think it's back. Yeah. Gary would say, get on the phone and call them.

Yeah.

You know, there's a. Oh, and I remember he. He was. He had this guy, Sam Markowitz, lived at his house. Do you know Sam? Yeah. What was the story like? He had he selling some penis pill, and he made Sam call all the customers. No, it was Caleb o'. Dowd. He made him call the penis pill customers and be like, hey, why did you buy this thing? You know, I did not know that. He rewrote the sales letter and it, like, you know, 3x conversions. Oh, here's what it was. Okay, I remember that. I remember the thing now. There was some sort of competition that Gary wrote. He put it out to his. Do you guys know Gary Halbert is. Okay, so Gary had that newsletter that was amazing that would come in the mail, and so he did a subscriber contest. And the subscriber contest is, who can write the best penis pill sales letter for this company he was working with. And he had something like, you know, 10 people applied or whatever and wrote a sales letter and sent it in. And Caleb was mentoring with Gary at the time, and he said, caleb, you're going to win this contest because you're going to do something that no one else will do. You're going to call the existing customers and you're going to ask them why they were buying these penis pills. And so Caleb calls all the customers, and it's very awkward, but he gets some info out of a few of them. He writes a sales letter, and all the sales letters come in. And the other 10 sales letters were like, you're going to get this pill and you're going to walk into the bar feeling like the man because you're going to be bigger and better than anyone else in there, and you might even have your first threesome that night and blah, blah, blah. And Caleb's letter said something like, if you're serious about having a better sex life with your wife, this will be the most important letter you ever read. He found out that most of the guys that were buying it were married. Everyone else just assumed that it was single. Guys were feeling lack of confidence, and that was such a big thing. It's like we were talking about with the app, you know, it's like one angle will just like totally destroy the other angle. So that's a very simple technique, you know, just to ask the customers. A thing that my mentor Eben had people do is sit down and write an autobiography as your customer. So in Adam's example, you know, you sit down, put yourself in the shoes of one of the customers and be like, you know, my name is Jack Sprout. I've been roofing for 30 years, you know, and business used to be easy. When I inherited this from my dad, the first ten years were cake. And then my first, first, first hand person went and started a competitive company and it, you know, took half my business. And then someone did the same with him, and that took part of our business. And then the economy went to shit, and then all these regulations come along, and now I'm lucky if I can, you know, take a week vacation and still be able to pay the bill, whatever it is, you know, and you just keep writing. And I got three kids, and one of them drives me nuts. And, you know, you know, I have to share a bathroom with my wife. And that's never fun. And, you know, the thing. Right. But go into all these things and you'll be surprised at what comes up. And it really helps you get in the mentality.

All right, so the. So let's talk about media. So what are all the different ways that your company. I mean, why don't you mention some of the people that you do the marketing for, at least the ones you can? Because I know you have a lot of people that you don't disclose who they are, share some of the people that you can share that you do, that you're behind their marketing.

Our best known brand is Dr. Stephen Gundry. It's called Gundry MD. It's supplements and food products that follow Dr. Gundry's lectin free diet. We can talk about that one.

Yeah, talk about it. So where was he before he met you? And then what did you do for him? Because he had a lot of knowledge, as do a ton of doctors do. And, you know, he had. Do you look for unique angles? What do you actually look. Look for when you're gonna take on a particular client or brand and then what. What do you actually figure out how to do that they usually can't figure out how to do themselves?

Yeah, I look for three things. I look for an amazing story. So Dr. Gundry was a heart surgeon who quit doing heart surgery because he thought he could help more people with nutrition. He wanted to heal their problems before they got to the heart surgery table. I look for impeccable credibility. So he was not only a heart surgeon, he was a chief of cardiovascular surgery at Loma Linda University Medical and had invented a device that was used at the time in 90% of all heart surgeries. May still be accurate. I just, I'm not sure. Then I look for innovative product ideas. So at the time I was, I was in the probiotics business with a brand called Probiotic America. And when I first met Dr. Gundry, he's like, oh, probiotics. I don't know. Like, I think, I think most probiotics are bullshit. I think prebiotics are really important. Now you guys probably all know what prebiotics is, but this is 2014. Most people didn't even know what a gut microbiome was. And if you told them you're giving them bacteria to eat, they'd be like, wait a second, you're going to give me the flu. Like no one really had those associations.

Yeah, well, I mean you, you probably are the one that single handedly made more people start thinking about the gut health and microbottom than probably anyone because of just the sheer amount of marketing you put out there. So you, can you talk about the, the first webinar you did that like even your competitors were stealing your, your webinar and putting their own name on it, trying to sell their stuff.

Oh yeah, I mean that, that's happened a lot with a lot of different things. But yeah, there was a, there was a probiotic VSL video sales that I wrote 2014 that really exposed why all of us need probiotics. Not every one of us. But you know, those who aren't super on it with a diet are gonna go to the store and you're gonna buy the heart healthy Cheerios. Oh, it's, you know, recommended by the US Food Administration. But then you don't look at the label and you don't realize that you're getting a bunch of sugar and grains and you know, glyphosate sprayed BS materials. Right. That all leads to bacteria overgrowth in your gut. And that is why probiotics will make a difference for a lot of people because it balances out the bad bacteria with good bacteria. So I did this expose sales letter talking about other food companies have been putting sugars and sweeteners into the American diet and products you wouldn't even expect like hot dogs and spaghetti and you know, ketchup is full of a bunch of sugars and how it leads to bad bacteria overgrowth. This thing went crazy viral. Joe Rogan was tweeting it. And I remember I would just go on Twitter at the time and I would type in keybiotics because that was the domain name. Keybiotics.com and I could just do a search and I could just scroll like this with all the people sharing this video because it was such an unknown tale at the time of how the food companies were doing this. And within a year of that video coming out, Pepsi, it also talked about aspartame, which is called NutraSweet, and how bad that was. Pepsi removed aspartame from their, their diet sodas because you're marketing. I mean, there's. I wasn't the only one talking about it, but our video got something like 80 million views before Google banned it. And I wonder if Google banned it because Pepsi or some of these food corporations. Yeah, talking trash here. Funny side note that happens. Pepsi removes aspartame. My video is already banned, so I had to come up with something new. And the next video I came up with because that, that diet soda thing was so strong. Started off, the picture was a hand pouring a diet soda into a toilet. It just said diet. You know, you could tell was soda. And the voiceover comes on and says, this is a diet soda. It's been marketed to you as a healthy weight loss drink. But a new study released by Texas A and M University that followed 64,314 people over a period of nine years found that those who drink diet sodas got fatter. And if you think this is bad news, you're not going to believe what I also mentioned this video. Anyway, even people didn't watch the whole video. They saw the thing about diet soda. And Pepsi goes like, a year later, their diet soda sales are trending down. They add aspartame back into diet Pepsi, but the sales are still going down. And I don't think they ever will know that it was. Because that second video I wrote probably probably has like a billion views by now or something like that. It's been running for 10 years. We've changed the hook since then. But yeah, this, this sold, I don't know, $400 million or something worth of that supplement.

Yeah.

And got a lot of. Bunch of. A lot of people stopped drinking diet Coke.

That's cool. Okay, so that there's a lesson in that, which is an ad is brand new to someone that's seen it for the first time. And I'D like you to speak to that because there's a lot of people that get sick of their advertising before the marketplace ever gets sick of it. And when. I mean sick of it, I mean, it quits working. So you've been running. What's the longest running ad you have right now?

That's the one.

Ten years.

Yes. With.

And. And when it gets tired or it quits working, what do you. What's your. The usual things that you look.

Yeah, you can change the hook. You can just change the hook. You can change the hook and it'll get a new audience.

Okay, so. And by the way, so you got Jeff Hayes over here. You know Jeff. Yep. So Jeff is licensed the four Maha films. And Jeff, I introduced you to Bobby Kennedy. You guys went hiking, and for some reason he really likes you. And so I don't know why, but, yeah, it's weird, strange. Can't figure that out. But. So what would you say to Jeff, with all of your experience in the health field, what would be the. The things to feature in those films that you think would have the. The biggest hooks for things related to medicine, food addiction, what else? Toxins to speak to in order to give those films as an example, the highest possibility of success?

I think the most important thing to remember, and you know, Jeff's stud, he doesn't. He already knows this, but people don't give a shit about your probiotic. They don't give a shit really about your film. They just want, you know, what's in it for me? Right? So if you're talking about, let's say, the videos on toxins in the food supply or something like that, you know, you can shock them by telling them, yeah, there's toxins in the food supply, and you wouldn't believe in just how many foods they're in. And it's in the water supply and it's in the air and all that stuff that can grab their attention. But the end of that, they're just kind of like, depressed, you know, and maybe they want that depression porn and they'll want to watch and just learn how fucked up society is. But they also might tune out and they might go find something else that's more exciting for them. Like, you know, Tai Lopez AD pops up with a Lamborghini, and they're like, oh, wait, I can learn about how shitty the world is, or I can go get a Lamborghini in my garage. You know, so what you do in the video about toxins is you'd be like, you know, new report shows that toxins are in nine out of 10 of the foods we eat. What's surprising is that, you know, three of these foods are banned in Europe, but they're legal in the US and if you cut out just these three foods from your diet, you're going to notice that you get better sleep at night, that you have more energy, that you know, digestion becomes easier, weight starts to fall off and your skin problems clear up. I'm like, oh shit, I want some of that. I want to learn what these are so I can actually have some self improvement in addition to the entertainment.

Okay, you said something like I don't know how many years ago you were, it was 100k and you had just started doing social media and you were like kind of focusing on it. It was one of these like, you know, you're putting some attention on it. But you, you had said as a writer that I think you'd be better off not trying to put out pieces of content every day in sitting down and just really writing and creating a body of work like a book that will last for a long time versus just something that's up temporarily and then you're off to the next thing. And so I'd love to get your perspective on putting work out into the world. Longevity and sustainability of stuff versus because I think right now we live in a world of shallow versus going deep with things. And I think there's some foundational, fundamental things you did right that have brought in the vast. You know, like you don't need a million tools in your toolbox, you just need a few basic moves, produce most results and so love to get your perspective on. Because everyone wants to get better at marketing if I ask them, you know, at least entrepreneurs do. And most there's a million different perspectives and definitions that someone's going to give of what marketing is. And it's real easy to sell personal branding because that's very ego based and there's just some fundamentals and foundational stuff that you have done in that I think, you know, kind of you've stuck to your knitting on those things which allows you to go play around with social media if you so choose to do. Even though I think now you're off the social media bandwagon, I think so you had talked about, I think you'd be better off, you'd said to everyone, I think you'd be better off writing. If you're going to spend six months doing a bunch of social media, you're going to spend six months writing a Book. I think long term you'd probably be better off with the book. Something along those lines.

Got it, Got it. Yeah, that was a long time ago. It's funny, I mean, this is something I haven't taken my own advice on yet because I haven't tried to really brand myself as a thought leader. There was like a six month period in 2020 when I was doing that, enjoying it. And then either the pandemic. Oh, you know what happened? Yeah, I was doing it in the pandemic and my favorite part of it was getting in front of crowds. I like speaking to great people like you that you know, are going to take action and, you know, fun to interact with.

Yeah.

And when I was just doing it to a screen and same with a social media screen during the pandemic, I just got over it and stopped. Right.

Well, he even so much as secured his name as his social media handle like Craig, that's his social media. It's funny.

But yeah, that was just pure luck. Someone offered me the name for, you know, a bag of cash.

Well, you know, being able to have a big bag of cash.

It was only 5,5k, which I think was a bargain. Wow, that's amazing. But yeah, to your point, I mean, this is something that we were talking about with Hazard Lee yesterday. So Joe and I have a new friend who's a fighter jet pilot. He wrote a book called the Art of Clear Thinking. It's a fantastic book. Have you read it? Yeah. So Hazard's amazing. This guy has commanded units of 100 fighter jets in Afghanistan. He's top of the game.

Tell everyone what we did yesterday.

Yes, we went and got a tour of the Air force, baseball, the F35s and hung out with Hazard a little bit afterwards. And he's doing more public speaking now and we were talking about how a lot of the top names in the speaking world or in the thought leader world have their like pinnacle pieces of content. So Malcolm Gladwell, 10,000 hours is something that he's really known for for figuring that out. Mel Robbins has the five second rule. Mark Manson has one called yes or no. And so curious when I said those three things, how many people here recognized one of them and knew what it, what it is without me having to like tell you what fuck yes or no means, for example, or what the 5 second rule is like, you guys just know it. Right? So I think if you're going to be a thought leader in your space, you want to put out some of that type of content. And what I was Telling Hazard, you know, AI these days is so amazing. You could just upload all your content in it and be like, hey, this is all my content. I'm going to upload you three thought leader pieces from people I admire and then put in five second rule or whatever. You know, fuck yes or no, go through my content. What are 10 pillars that could be mine of the lessons I've been teaching and then maybe give them to you. Maybe they are some of your best concepts. Maybe they're crappy names. They're like, hey, let's go deep on this one about clear thinking. What's a catchy title? You know, just brainstorm title I love. I came up with this. Okay, this is funny backstory on this. I used to have the ARCS formula. I started teaching the arcs formula in 2020. It's kind of the same thing. But I'll tell you what it is. A is ask a yes question. R is reveal. You've been there. I mentioned that. C is call out your discovery. Call out the thing that changed your life. Ask to still send them to do something. And when I put that out there, people loved it. But every time I meet someone, they ask me the same question. Hey, tell me again, what is C? I can't remember. C remember, you know, ask the S question and reveal what's C? And I knew C was kind of weak. Like, call out. Your discovery is just too far away from what I'm actually showing people to do. So I went to ChatGPT and I said, hey, I have this acronym. Here's what each thing means. I want a better one. I want it to be a word that people can remember. And I really need to clean up this, this C thing. Like, what's the simpler thing there? And went back and forth. And within 10 minutes, I think it had shown harp, but it had also shown me, like, past and some of these other. It had a few ideas, and then I took pieces of the ideas it gave me and I made it into hats. Literally 10, maybe 15 minutes. So you guys all have these lessons inside of you. Sometimes you just gotta polish them up. And, you know, I think probably doing it on your own would be a great exercise. Another great exercise would be asking your customers, like, hey, what are the most valuable things that you learned from me? Is there anything that stands out? And they'd be like, oh, yeah, when you said this, this thing and this talk, that really stood out for me. And then think about, like, oh, okay, how can I turn that into a framework? Or how can I turn that into one of my, like, Pinnacle. Pinnacle pieces, you know, And I would say, I don't know for sure because I haven't gone deep on nel's content, but I know Mark Manson has like, I don't know, a few hundred blogs. Right. So sometimes you got to put out.

A few before because the hell. Yes or no really came from Derek Sivers. He just added the. The F word in front of it and.

Oh, that's interesting. Yeah.

Because, you know, his whole, you know, I mean, even the risky title, which everyone said would be, you know, ended up becoming huge for Mark Manson. So he's a great writer, so. Yeah, but that's, it's very interesting.

Yeah.

So. All right, so. Well, okay. To the. And you showed me yesterday all the different threads you had when you were going through chat GPT, trying to, you know, get it to be an acronym. That made sense. So how do you see the role of copywriting evolving with like, you know, the rise of AI and new technologies? And, you know, there's so many copywriters that I think are worried about staying relevant because now you can have, you know, AI assist you.

Yeah, I don't know, man. I mean, right now it's. It's still quite mediocre. That said, it's a better writer than nine out of ten of my friends. And I have some pretty smart friends. Right. When it comes to copy though, it's like lacking that thing that really is grabby. But that could change in six months, so I have no clue. So what do you, what do you.

How many copywriters? So you have 1400 employees in your company. Like, what the hell do all these people do?

Well, we have in house customer service, fulfillment. That's a big chunk. Yeah. And then we have I think around 450 on the like corporate office type team. How many in the point about. About copywriting? Sad to say, it's not as much about the copy anymore as it used to be. You know, Joe and I, when we were coming up in this, it was a piece of paper that got sent to someone's mailbox or appeared in the newspaper in a magazine ad. It was just a static thing. And then when the Internet first came out, it was a static webpage. So I worked for a guy named Evan Pagan. He wrote a book called Double youe Dating. And you landed on this thing and it gets you to an 18 page static sales letter. And then I remember someone came up with a video. I think it was John Benson or someone like that came up, you know, first Video sales letter and it converted like crazy, you know, with this new media. But that also introduced all these new elements because then you needed some type of video to watch. Actually at first the video sales that are just showed text. Remember that? I think he wrote the one for Mike Geary Truth about abs and it was just text. But then someone figured out that if you did like a whiteboard animation, there's some drawing going on that really grabs the eye. And now it's, you know, to the point where we have video teams that have worked, you know, everywhere from Hollywood film studios to like local news agencies producing really high end segments. Yeah. And those people are, are critical. And those wins that are created by video editing teams can be as big or bigger than switching the lead in of a sales letter now. So I feel there is a bigger barrier to entry than there was back in Halbert's days and back in our early days when it was all about having the A list copywriter to nail the offer.

Yeah.

You know, it's interesting too, is so Dean Jackson. We started doing a monthly marketing training with everyone here in Geniuses seller and Dean is the one that actually taught Evan Pagan, the model that became Double your dating. So it's, you know, the thing is, is you ideas are great but they have to get executed upon. You have to build team around, you know, building a big company.

So.

What has helped you the most with that with, you know, take creating a winning ad and winning messaging in a sales letter that works is way different than exploiting it it and really leveraging the heck out of it. So what are some of the key lessons you've learned about really growing and exploiting marketing campaigns?

Sorry, I apologize. I have to take my daughter to gym class. So I got to make this the last question and I went add thinking about that when you asked the question. So I missed the last question. But ask me the question. We'll end on a. On a good note.

There's a lot of people here that have great marketing that works, but they don't exploit it.

And they don't really exploit it. Exploit it. Scale it up.

Exactly.

Okay, roll it out.

They don't do a rollout. They may get a, they may get a win, but then they don't exploit it. And that's one of the things they used to talk to Gary Halbert about. It's like you're sitting on a winning lottery ticket, but you never cash it in.

Yeah. You know, our key has always been to cast a wide net. So a lot of the competitors in the probiotics space would write an ad that would say something like, do you know your probiotics are working? And we would say, feeling sluggish at three in the afternoon, like, what's a bigger category? You know? So being able to cast a wide net, having a hook that can relate to a lot of people, is a way to scale up your marketing that I think a lot of people miss. It's harder. It's harder to come up with a captivating hook because the algorithms of Facebook and TikTok and all the things are going to. Like, if your ad says, you know, do you know your probiotics are working? And here's how to find out. These algorithms know, man, they know people better than their partners do, you know, so they'll put that in front of everyone that has bought a probiotic in the last six months or whatever. You know, they got deals with Visa and MasterCard and they got all the fucking data, you know, so that'll convert really well. Whereas your ad that's a little less subtle, that has like a. They call a secret lead because you don't necessarily know there's going to be a sale or even, you know, a talk about a probiotic. They'll throw that out more broadly. So you have to have a stronger ad to be able to convert at that scale. But if you can figure that out and get something that can pull everyone in that isn't even thinking about probiotics, maybe they're watching the Kardashians or, you know, reading about the fires or whatever. You're going to be able to get a lot more potential buyers than if you're just going after people who know what probiotics are. And things do change. We came up with probiotics. Our first probiotic, I think, was 2013, 14. In 2017 or 18, I was running a banner ad that said, Doctor says, Throw your probiotics in the trash. Because probiotics were mainstream by then. And there was enough people that used probiotics that. That would get clicks on the homepage of AOL or something like that. Because probiotics have become like a multivitamin where just everyone was taking them. Right. You know, so you got to know where the market's at and realize where to hit it.

Okay, very cool. All right, so you have to go.

I gotta go. So you're gonna be great.

You have to put your daughter in front of questions from the audience. I can't believe how hurtful you are like this. It's very insensitive. But no, it's. Yeah, it's always great having you here.

So thanks for having me.

Famous last words on advice on what to read or what, what do you, what do you pay attention to now and then? Get your butt out of here. Go to.

Yeah, I think studying things other than copywriting books will give you an advantage. There are the go to books that everyone should read like you know, Ogilvy on advertising or Claude Hopkins or you know, all the Joe Polish stuff. But I found I got an edge by reading things like Edward Bernays biography. You know, he's the founder of PR or Spin selling by Neil Rackham has a book that comes to mind which is about like in person selling or phone selling. You know, he'll have different ways in there. I actually think I got the yes question thing from Spin. From Spin Selling. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I forgot about that.

In Influence, of course, by Chaldean.

Oh, I think you've probably had Chris Voss. Yeah.

Never splits a difference.

That's a great book, man. There's so many things in there that can apply to copywriting and marketing.

Yeah.

So look for best in their class books in different psychological categories and then take that stuff and add it to your copy.

Yeah. Awesome.

Craig Clemons, everyone.

Thank you, sir. All right, we'll talk later. Okay. I hope you found that video awesome and useful. So if you want to get a free copy of my book, I want you to click here. And if you want to watch some more videos that will be useful and awesome, click here.

Go ahead. They're over here. Do it now. Come on.

Thank you. Watch them.