THIS is the Most Powerful Negotiation Move You Can Make Feat. Chris Voss & Vishen Lakhiani

What's your definition of negotiation? Just the, you know, the term negotiation. And what are the fundamentals of negotiation that every entrepreneur should learn?

Well, negotiation, really, it's great collaboration. I mean, and in negotiating you should be, you should be gathering information and influence and use them, you know, to create a great collaborative. Collaboration is the key because if it's not a collaborative outcome, you know, you got long term failure coming at you. Our co author of Never Split the Difference Tall Roz, it's his contention. First of all, Tal's a brilliant dude. Any business book that you run across that Tal's name is on, pick it up, it's going to be a good read. He's a business book writer, genius. But he said that he thinks, you.

Know.

Ancestrally, and I know that's not exactly the right word, but that we're hardwired to collaborate. The only ones of our ancestors, the cavemen that survived that, you know, were hardwired into from genetics, are the ones that collaborated. So we're hardwired to collaborate as human beings in great negotiations about a great collaboration.

I agree. You know, that's really. I talk a lot about that, about the reason we refer people is because of that same thing that we're playing. The cooperation game is this game that's gotten us to be the most successful species in the history of the universe. Right. That, that in order for it to work, we have to be able to collaborate. Somebody does the. Goes out and does the hunting. We have to be able to trust that the people on the back at the village are going to hold down the. There's so much about that. I hadn't thought about it that way, but collaboration is the same kind of thing as cooperation.

Yeah, I like that thought a lot because I'm gonna draw a real fine point, a subtle point on two words. The difference between cooperation and collaboration.

Good.

Collaboration is both people waiting in and being. You know, there's a difference between being assertive and being aggressive. I need you to assert your best interests. Otherwise you're relying on me to read your mind about what's best for you. So for everybody out there, you've got to be assertive. You don't have to be an asshole when you do it. You know, the trick is to be assertive without being a jerk. Now, cooperation is sometimes a little more passive. And I want you to be collaborative. I want you to wade in. I don't want you to leave it to my mind reading to know what's best for you. And sometimes if we lean too far in the direction of cooperation. We find ourselves in a resentful position, and that's not good long term. So, you know, I want all of you to step up and politely let people know what you need, because otherwise you're. You're relying on them to read your mind, and that decreases your percentage chances of success.

This is one of my favorite things that I observed as I'm getting to know you is the. You're a wordsmith, as I love the distinctions in words. And that's. That makes a big difference. I think people have linked assertive and aggressive as the same thing, especially people who are not likely to be assertive, that they kind of miscommunicate or misinterpret it, that they need to be aggressive when the. Really, what they're trying to be is assertive. You can be assertive politely, like you just said. That's kind of a. That's a great thing, really.

I agree with you completely. One of the most assertive people on earth, somebody. I'm a big fan of Oprah Winfrey. You don't think of her as being aggressive. You know, I've talked about her enough that I've had people close to her detail to me some very specific conversations she had with people where she was extremely assertive. You know, if you were to boil down her message to one sentence, it would be, it's my way or the highway. But she says it in such a supportive and nurturing and loving fashion that people go, okay, yeah.

When you say it in a way that it's like, it's okay. That if that's not your way, that's fine with me in a way. Right?

That's.

Yeah, you know what? That's. That's it. Exactly. She always says, if it's not your way, it's fine with me. And no matter what, I will always love and support you.

Yes.

You know what? That's interesting because I have met Oprah twice, briefly. The second time, but the first time, I spent about 15 minutes talking with her at Maryville Resort over about 20 years ago, and she was at the resort for the first time, and my friend used to be the spa director there. And lo and behold, like, Oprah kind of walks around the corner and she looks so tired that I couldn't even bring it to myself. I wanted to ask her she'd do an interview, because even 25 years ago is when I first started doing interviews, but she looked so tired that I didn't bring up a single thing about business or anything. I was Just talking to her about the equine experience using, like horses is this therapeutic thing that they were doing at this spa and people were coming up to her and she just, like, had to just dismiss them. But you're right, Chris, the way she did it was, I mean, extremely assertive. But also the tone of her voice, the way she did it. But it would, I mean, there was no doubt that, you know, like, don't talk to me and that sort of thing. So it's. Yeah, I think that. So, I mean, to master something, Chris, from like mastering the skill of negotiation here, you obviously have a book we wanted to have you come on because certainly what you can teach people can change the trajectory of their life and the results that they get and how they interact, not just in business, but in all areas in life. What are your thoughts on mastery? I mean, you even have a master class. You have trainings. I mean, what does it take for someone to get to that level?

You know, it's repetition, small stakes practice for high stakes results. Be willing to make mistakes and then learn from your mistakes. Now, that seems obvious, but first of all, most people over the age of 25 don't want to make mistakes. You know, you're horrified, you're embarrassed. You know, you find mistakes embarrassing. And so that's the first problem. I mean, that's a real problem. And then the second thing is then learning from the mistakes. You know, it's. It's practice makes perfect, but perfect. Practice makes perfect. Learn from your mistakes and be willing to get better. Like we, you know, we get internally, we got sort of a game that we play on getting sweet upgrades in hotels for free. It's a little bit of a contest. My son Brandon prides himself on always getting a better room in a hotel than me, and I'm paying the bills. But, you know, he taught us how he does it. And the last time I was in a hotel and I happened to be in Dallas for a football game just a couple of weeks ago, I did it badly and I got the sweet upgrade. And afterwards, as I was going through in my mind, I was like, ah, I made a mistake. I mean, you know, I got to do this better. But it was a learning, you know, it was a repeat experience for me. Practice and, you know, I was willing to make a mistake and then. And relearn, get back into practice because negotiation is a perishable skill. It's not riding a bike. If you're bragging about a negotiation that you did a long time ago, then you're out of practice, because you should have a recent victory or not quite a victory that you could talk about and get better from. So it takes practice.

So, Chris, where is negotiation not utilized in life?

Yeah, you know, I don't know where it's. Where it's not utilized. I mean, when are you not trying to get smarter? When are you not trying to gather information? When are you not trying to have influence in a good way? Again, this was with this collaborative thing that I referred to earlier about, I mean, using your powers for good and not evil. If you collaborate, if you want to hurt people, it's going to catch up with you. But if I'm only information gathering, maybe, and I don't want to have influence on the outcome, maybe that's it. But negotiation is involved in everything. Negotiation. One of my favorite stories is negotiation involved when you order at Starbucks. It's in everything. And the reason why it's involved at Starbucks, which most people say it's not. Had a guy tell me that a Starbucks employee told him that he gave decaf to people that were mean to him.

Sometimes you're in negotiation, you don't even know you're negotiating.

Exactly. When you don't know you're in.

That's right.

Yeah, exactly. You're like, you're the recipient of what happens when you're an asshole to people.

Right, exactly.

So going back to collaboration. So let's frame it this way. So you've been in some pretty serious life or death situations. I mean, the top international FBI hostage negotiator was one of your roles that you've done in your pretty expansive life. How does someone who's threatening to blow someone's head off wanting money or whatever, that they're looking for freedom from their crimes? How do you view that as a collaboration?

Yeah, well, it sounds like a cliche, but what are their actions or their threats in a larger view, what are they designed to get? And whether or not you're a terrorist or you're a CEO or you're a paperboy, it doesn't matter. We're all kind of after a few of the same things. You know, we want a better tomorrow. You know, we want to live, we want to flourish, we want to prosper no matter what. You know, there's a higher purpose, you know? You know, bank robber says they need to cry in 60 seconds or she dies, which is one of our favorite exercises. A guy wants to live, you know, terrorist who is a demand, I'll kill this person. If we don't have this political Demand they have greater aspirations. I was training hostage negotiations in the United Arab Emirates a little over 10 years ago. They brought me in to sit down with the sheikh that was in charge. Brilliant guy, American, educated, interesting dude. I mean, an interesting dude. And they told me before I sat down with the sheikh, if they had any, you know, if they had Al Qaeda come in. The sheikh wanted to kill him. You know, he said, understand, the sheikh is not here for you to save terrorist lives. The sheikh is here for you to save lives of innocent people in the Emirates. So the sheikh says to me, what are you gonna teach my guys to tell? And I said to him, I want your guys to get on the phone and say to a tariff. What you're doing is a great thing. And the sheikh's mouth fell open. And I said, and when they do, they're gonna have them the same way I've got you right now. You can't wait to hear what I'm gonna say next. Because there's a larger purpose to the action. So, you know, business person, if somebody's demanding a price reduction, they're under pressure. You don't talk about. Don't talk about the price reduction. Say, sounds like you're under a lot of pressure here. Sounds like you're really up against. You're really up against it. Sounds like you're backed into a corner. Get out of reacting to what they said and think about in a bigger picture, what are they really after? And it's pretty much always the same thing, because all human beings are hardwired the same.

Hey, I hope you're enjoying this video. And I want to let you know that I have a new book that's come out, and if you'd like to get it absolutely free, there's a link below in the description. Or you can wait till the end of this video, or you can Simply go to joe'sfreebook.com and you can get a copy there. So what's the most stressful negotiation you've ever been in, and how did you. How did you deal with it?

Talking to my sister earlier today. You know, the ones we all struggle with, the closer somebody is to us, the harder it is for us, because it just becomes harder and harder to get out of our own way anytime that if I can step back at all, then I can get myself under control. And usually the way I step back is, you know, I'll vary my tone of voice. There's a couple different ways to step back to get yourself out of a reactive judgmental mode. Get Yourself out of, out of, you know, an angry mode. You know, they say give a speech when you're angry, it'll be the greatest speech you ever regret. You know, when your buttons are getting punched, you're actually dumber. And you're also simultaneously more self righteous. So it's not emotions that are bad, it's negative emotions. And anytime you can take a step back in any way, take a deep breath, I mean, you know, we're seeing all this stuff from traditional thought that now is being backed up with scientific data. Taking a deep breath is a way to step back. You know, that book Breathe is out there. I was thinking actually earlier today, you know, because I got a little heated up in conversation with my sister and but then I happened, you know, it was time for me to. I took cold shower. I take cold showers for health reasons. I instantly, my mental state changed, cool off, literally physically, you know, so I've, you know, I varied quite a bit from your original question. What was the most stressful negotiation you were in? Anytime that I don't have a sounding board, if I'm in it by myself and I don't have somebody on my side as a sounding board, then I'm not in as good a position. I've had some kidnappings that were ugly. You're not going to bat a thousand. You're just not. Anybody wants to give you negotiation strategy that says works every time they're lying to you. I told somebody in a conversation recently, hostage negotiators had a 93% success rate, which is an enviable success rate for any sales or business person. 93% success. But that meant we shot the bad guy 7% of the time. So engage in skills that increase your batting averages and don't expect yourself to be perfect.

Okay, got it. So what is your process for like fleshing out a situation and then determining the best approach to take? Because you have to size things up and sometimes you have to size them up relatively quickly. So how do you speak to that?

All right, so the first thing is, Colin Paz said a long time ago, never let your ego get so attached to the position that if the position collapses, your ego goes with it. What does that have to do with what you just asked me? What it has to do with what you just asked me is when you size things up initially, understand that you're going to get in more data and your assessment of the situation is going to change. So yes, initially I'm going to size the other side up for collaboration. I'm going to Size them up for whether or not they're L for half. Everybody knows what that is. I live by those phrases. I use them every day. I'm going to try to figure out if they're elf or half. Are they easy, lucrative and fun? Are they hard and annoying, lame and frustrating? And then I'm going to be willing to adapt that as I go on. You know, I'm going to use a couple of negotiation skills that are the diagnostic tools, mirrors and labels. I'm going to repeat something that they just said to get them to go on. I'm going to label what they just said. You know, it sounds like this is important to you. Anything to give me more data as we're going through to back up whether or not they're elf or half. Conversely, what am I to them? Am I the favorite of the fool? If you don't know who the fool in the game is, it's probably you. In point of fact, and I bet the ranch on this. 20% of everybody's opportunities. 20% of business opportunities are fake opportunities. We actually think that the number is higher than that. 20% of the time, the person is coming to you for your good or your service. They're looking for you to be a competing bid only. They're looking for you to flesh out their due diligence. They're looking for you to be the rabbit to drive the price down on the other side. 20% of the time. Why do I think the number is 20 and it's actually much higher? There's a book out there called the Challenger Sale. They ran a survey. They asked business people, how often do you actually lie to a vendor? You have no intention of doing business with them, but you're acting like you do because you need a competing bid. You're only doing due diligence. Executives responded about 20% of the time. Now, did they exaggerate or did they minimize? Because basically what they asked the executives was, how long do you lie to someone? How often do you lie to someone about whether or not you're going to do business with them? There's no way they exaggerated. They had to have minimized. So part of my assessment at the very beginning is, am I the favorite of the fool? If I'm the fool in the game, I'm going to be Oprah. I'm going to be nice and say, go away. But I'm going to say, go away.

That makes anybody just go away and feel better.

Always be nice abn. Don't always be closing. Always be nice. Always be Nice.

I like that.

You know, I got to mention this one comment. I might try to see what goofball posted this because I don't see the name. It's from Windows PC. It says, I want to negotiate with my wife to accept my new girlfriend so I can be with both. Some tips, please. I would probably say a therapist for this person. Maybe an integrity class or something.

Be a little bit less self centered. What about her needs? You're focusing on your needs. What about her needs? Maybe she wants another guy. How do you know? How do you know that's not the case?

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's probably the case. That's awesome. Who is that, by the way? Is it someone we know? I can't even see, but I would guess without even seeing who it might be.

But anyway, I was thinking the same thing, Joe. That's funny.

I think you know we gotta be thinking about the same person.

I know.

Yeah. So let me ask you this, Chris. So what's the most valuable negotiation technique or strategy that you've ever learned? And why is it so valuable? Because you know a lot of them.

You know, one of the simplest ones. All right, let's go with simplest. Mirroring. Repeating the last three words of what someone just said.

The last three words?

Yeah, you know the last three words. Just repeat the. Nice job, Dean. I know what you're doing to me.

For it right away.

Without even dare you. How dare you put me on me.

Nice.

No, if you can master that skill. Because a lot of times you just need some time to think. You know, everybody says, boy, you know, now that I'm thinking about it, I know what I wish you would have said. And now that I'm thinking about it, now I see what I missed. That mirror technique, the last three words buys you that time in the moment without the other side realizing that's what you're doing. Because they're going to go on, they're going to talk some more. They're going to add a lot in. One of the crazy things about the MERIT technique is it's a preferred move of the people that possess both a high IQ and a high eq. Now, I cannot explain why that is the case. I can speculate on it. I think if they are high in both areas, they love the simplicity of it and, and lack of effort and data loving people. So they. They love how little they have to do to get a bunch of information out of the other side. But that's. That's. That's probably the single most valuable Thing that you could learn simply.

Very good. Very good. Well, so we've talked about this one before, but it's always so important because you've shifted. You've helped so many people just with this one. So why is the word no more important than yes? And if you could give an example.

Wow. Wow. Yeah. Okay, so the key to negotiation, it's not about you. You know, we hear this all the time. But here you hear no, and you go like, oh, my God. Oh, my God, I hate no. I hate being told no. I think we get that conditioned every child on earth, regardless of the language. What's the first word they learn? No. Because they get told no, and they get pointed at them and no, don't do that. No, no, no. So we get it beat into a hardwired into us. So when we hear it, something horrible has just happened. But the flip side, the person who's saying it feels protected and safe.

And.

They calm down and they relax. They feel like they just protected themselves. The other thing, too is you can say no when you're tired and then immediately contribute to the conversation and think things through really quickly. So it's completely different if it's about them. People love to say no. They feel. And they're gonna say a bunch more afterwards. You know, I got a couple no stories that I love, but I'll tell one of my favorites. Robert Herjavec. We're negotiating with Robert Herjavec's crew over how many tickets are gonna buy for one of our training events. I've already offered him one. His response for free. His response to the one for free was, how many can we buy? Not how many more free ones can we get? I'm a huge Robert Herjavec fan. Based on my interaction with them, I find him to be a generous, decent human being. So we're going back and forth, and the event is getting ready to sell out. And my son Brandon, who runs my company, he calls me on the phone late in the day. I'm in la. He says, you get herjavec to commit. How many tickets are gonna buy now? Or they're gonna be sold out by the time the sun rises in New York tomorrow because my son's on east coast time. We're getting ready to sell the event out. And Brand says, and if he doesn't buy any, I'm giving away. I'm selling a ticket that we're supposed to be giving him for free. So I'm like, all right, I gotta cut this deal now. It's five o' clock in la. When's the last time you tried to get a hard decision out of somebody? At 5 o'. Clock at 5:03 and also an email. At 5:03 I sent a two line email to Robert Herjavec. Is it a ridiculous idea for you to commit to buying three tickets now? Second line. Are you against paying for them before the business day starts in New York tomorrow? Again, we're three hours behind New York. The time stamp on his email response is 504. One minute later. No, we'll commit to the three tickets right now. No, it's not a problem. We'll pay from right away. Send me a link. We'll pay for them right now. Within the hour. I send them the link, we get the money at 523. Get people to say no. You'd be shocked at the responses you get.

Fantastic. There's some questions that people have, but what I'm going to ask everyone, save your questions. When we open it up for Q and A, I might ask you to repost them because it's sometimes hard for me to track everything and be present here too. So Chris, how might an entrepreneur use these strategies and techniques that you teach to better understand and serve their clients?

Well, yeah, I mean first of all in simply understanding them better will help you serve them, you know. Alright, so let's say you're the favorite and let's say that they're elf they're not half. They want you to dial into them. You know, you, you want to be open to a better deal which is you tailoring your services to them so that it better serves them and it's more lucrative for you. Because first of all I'm going to presume that everybody on this call believes the same thing that I do, that you over deliver. So first of all, if you're over delivering, you are bargaining whatever you were charging anyway. Which means if you tailor your service, your good or service so that it's a better delivery for them, you're worth even more. Yes, you want to get what you do. No, don't, don't be greedy, don't grab with both hands. But when you provide a service that's worth it, you are entitled to be paid. So the more that you listen to them and understand them and I'm here to tell you there are ways that you can tailor whatever you're providing that would be easier for you to provide it, which means it would be more profitable for you and it would be better for them. So be willing to Engage in conversations and be open to that. And then the other crazy thing is there might be something really counterintuitive that'll make it profitable for you in unexpected ways. And one of my favorites is, you know our mutual friend Dan Sullivan. He's talking about his book deal. He's talking about listening to me. Never split the difference. And we pay. Sorry, I pushed the wrong button. We pay people what they ask. No, I don't pound people on price. So Dan turns around and gives every dime of the book proceeds to Dan and Tucker.

Ben.

Ben and Tucker. Sorry, Ben and Tucker. And then Ben and Tucker. Tucker says, dan got the last drop of my blood. When you're not greedy on the price term, what the other side gives you back might be worth 10 times what the dollars were worth. And those guys, I think those guys. I think Ben and Tucker would die for Dan. Yeah.

Yeah. And that's. See, the beauty of Dan, too, is. And I think it's one of the reasons. I mean, heck, me and Dan have done podcasts on this is we like reciprocal people. You know, we like people that are generous. We like people that are useful. And it's just so much easier to. That's what an ELF person is. People keep asking, what does ELF mean? ELF is easy, lucrative, and fun, and half is hard, annoying, lame, and frustrating. It's actually a term I got over 20 years ago from my friend Mark Schneider, who unfortunately passed away earlier this year, but I heard him say elf years ago. And I said, I'm going to develop that into something, because I started thinking of all the different business methodologies you can use in terms of marketing and the stuff that me and Dean Jackson teach on. I love marketing. It's ELF marketing. It's automated. It's robotic. But then I started thinking, how do you. You can filter everything through an ELF filter. What are people? What are projects? What are things that you're doing? Are they easy, lucrative, and fun? Or are they hard, annoying, lame, and frustrating? Sometimes people can be hard, annoying, lucrative, and frustrating. Not all money is created equal. So ELF is a really great filter. And I'm super happy, Chris, that you're referring to that, because I think it just offers some framing. So, yeah, I mean, this is. Once you become skilled at utilizing what Kris is teaching and what he's talking about here, you will find a lot of things in your life that were difficult become more elf. And that's the whole goal, is to bring ELF to people in all areas of their entrepreneurial endeavors.

I'm going to jump in Real quick, because there's one more tangent I want to go on to on half and now before you fire your half clients. And we just shifted into this recently. We got a couple of deals that were proposed to us, and they were half deals before we walked away. And I had this conversation with my son Brandon and everybody else in our company. When it came up, I said, what's the counteroffer that would make this an ELF deal before we walk? Maybe they don't know that this has happened. Maybe they don't understand it. And there's a pretty good chance of what, you know, the chances are that they're gonna offer you a half deal because they don't know any better. They can't help themselves. There's a whole bunch of reasons. I said, let's counter with what would make this an ELF relationship. At that point, there's no doubt in anybody's mind what we're looking for. And they had the option to take it or leave it, and we have the option to take it or leave it. And we turned a couple of deals around with that by simply countering. Instead of saying goodbye so long, we said, all right, here's what would work for us. Here's what would make us want to do business with you forever and make us want 10 years from now, look back on the last 10 years and say that was cool and we threw it out there. And the batting average is actually pretty high on that. You know, we don't counter offer their offer term by term. We construct what would be great for us and how we would love to do business with them before we walk. And you'd be surprised at how many people will embrace that because they just didn't know any better.

Do you ever have situations, Chris, where you look outside of the scope of what will be the immediate terms that are on the negotiation, to see, to draw in other things that might tip things some way or be an influence. I was just thinking about how, you.

Know, that's a great question, man. I'm glad you brought that up. We're trying for that all the time. And, you know, how do you know what you don't know? What we'll do is we'll start to say, let's brainstorm this a little bit. Like, here's some ideas that people have gotten in the past. Start throwing out wacky stuff that people brought up, and that will kick their brain into gear. So, yeah, try to kick them into a collaborative brainstorming process to look for how to get outside the scope. But I Mean, I love that question because that's absolutely what everybody should be doing.

What are the biggest mistakes that. Let's start with that. That we make when negotiating, because we're all doing it. I mean, how would you even define negotiating?

Communicating to accomplish results in real broad terms? Information gathering is part of it. Herb Cohen wrote a book a long time ago called you can negotiate anything, and he defined negotiation as a use of power and information in a web of tension. Now, a web of tension would be emotions. And the only tweak I think, that.

We made on our.

And our definition is we don't just use information, we gather it and use it. Because if you're saying the use of information, you're assuming you're coming to the table. And you know you should have gathered all the information before you come to the table. The table's the best place to gather information. And a lot of people will hold themselves back from going to the table because you want to be prepared.

You don't want to be caught off guard. About a third of you in a.

Room are horrified at getting caught off guard at the table, and that's holding you back.

So, yeah.

So in terms of the mistakes.

Do.

People like, what are some common ones that are easy to fix? Like, you have a whole way of. Start with about no, as an example. I love the way that you. Most people want to get a yes. Maybe we can talk about how yes could possibly not be the first thing you want to hear out of someone's mouth. Because everyone here is like, you know, wanting to sell stuff. And you got a lot of the world's greatest marketers. And I've had the conversation with Dan Sullivan that no's are great, yeses are great, maybes are what kill you. If someone says no, you at least know where they stand. And you can either it's done or you can. Now, knowing what you know, that's actually a starting point. But maybes where someone's like, oh, I'll call you back, or whatever. And so I'd love to have you talk about just the languaging and what to pursue and how to actually start the whole process of getting to, you know, something favorable in the result that you want.

Yeah, sure.

All right, so yes is a useless word. There is no more useless word. And the majority probably yes addicts. And recognizing that is one thing. Getting out of it is even harder because you're hardwired. If you're hardwired to hear yes, breaking out of that dynamic is really, really hard. But it could be one of the biggest issues. And if you're hardwired for yes, of course you're horrified. No, but in any important negotiation, I don't bother with yes at all.

Give you an example.

We ran a training in New York a few months back and I had recently run across Robert Herjavec. Wonderful guy, I mean, generous on the strength of just an introduction from one person. I'm sitting down with this guy for lunch for 90 minutes and he's talking to me for 90 minutes and he's pieing. I mean, what else do you want, right? So through the course of the conversation, I tell him we got this training going on and I offer him, you know, give me a free ticket. And he says, how many can I buy?

Like, wow, even better.

What an even more gracious guy. He loves so much. We're talking about, he's willing to pay too. So we're going back and forth on the tickets, how many he's going to buy. And the window's closing, it's going to slam shut and he's not going to get in. And my people are bugging me. They're mad at me because I'm giving away tickets for free that we'd be selling otherwise.

So I'm in a doghouse already.

Anyway, so it's. I'm in Los Angeles, my team is in New York, east coast, we three hour handicap in la and they're screening.