https://www.listennotes.com/e/aea10ff359894df0b65234693b914f71

Hi, friends. Welcome to the Regenerative Agriculture podcast. I'm John Kempf and we're here on the podcast. We have fun conversations that are all related around the theme of how do we make agriculture healthy, be healthy for ecosystems, the environment, how do we regenerate soil health and plant health and livestock health and ultimately human health? Because as the Japanese farmer Ukuoka taught us, he said the ultimate purpose of agriculture is the cultivation of human beings. And I think we would be well reminded of that. So I've looked forward to this conversation today for some time. I'm joined by Ivo Jeremoz of Gurgich Hills Winery, who has. Both the winery and evo have quite the fascinating story and they've been doing some fascinating work. So, Ivo, thank you for being here. I've really been looking forward to our discussion. Tell us a little bit about the journey that you've been on and the journey that Gurgich Hills has been on.

John, thank you so much for having me. We've known each other for a few years and you were first one to introduce me to regenerative farming through podcasts like yours. So I thank you so much. Many, many people like me found regenerative farming through your podcasts. You have no idea how influential that is and how many minds are changed. As you said, knowledge is there. We just have to collect it in one place. So you're able to collect all the knowledge in one place and it's free, accessible to anyone. All you want to do, all you have to do, show the will and time to learn. Thank you.

Well, thank you. That's quite a compliment.

So we are a small family owner winery in Napa Valley. We originally from former Yugoslavia, today's Croatia. So my uncle grew up in pre war Yugoslavia. Not only that, they grew all our fruit and vegetables and meat, but they had to reproduce probably 70, 80%. What they wore, shoes and clothing, they had to produce. So my uncle was very proud to say that from age 7 to 21, he was Shepherd. So he had to take care of 55 sheep and three goats and four cows and a donkey. And also I always remembered a donkey because it said, evil man and donkey are smarter than man alone. So even every, every animal has a purpose and, and brings something. When I grew up, my family produced probably 80% what we ate. And I bitterly resented agriculture because at that time, being teenager, all I wanted to do play basketball. And that was my dream. And my uncle, my father, thought that sports are waste of time. One time I was running and my father Stopped me and said, what are you doing? I said, I'm running. Who's chasing you? Nobody's chasing me. I'm just getting in shape. I said, oh, you need to get in shape, all right. There's a shovel. I want this land to be turned three times over. So that's going to get you in good shape. So you can imagine my hatred of agriculture. Then I went to school, studied, and became mechanical engineer. That time it was right before Yugoslavia fell apart, before civil war. Thank God I left and my uncle brought me here and helped me. It was very hard to get a visa, but we succeeded. Took me only two weeks in here in Napa Valley to realize how beautiful agriculture, grape growing and winemaking is. And that became my life.

It only took two weeks for the conversion to happen. What triggered that rapid conversion?

I believe that I had genes. My ancestors were farmers forever, for generations. And it was in me just kind of interfere with sports. By time I was here, I was 26, so I wasn't playing much of basketball anymore. And it was like afterthought. And so through me and love for nature kind of, I rediscover it. I still remember growing up and being in love with the butterflies and bees in springs. And I hear many older farmers remember those days when everything was buzzing and today there is a deafening silence, unfortunately. And so all this that I experienced as a boy growing up came back to me and. And I'm thrilled. My life is fulfilled with not just farming, but beautiful family. I have six kids and beautiful wife. Loving wife. And it's every morning I wake up, I'm so excited to go. This is not work. This is pure love and joy. So I thank God every day for this opportunity to live in this great place and live this life.

So tell us a bit about the winery. You arrived to help your uncle. How long had the winery been going at that point in the vineyard? And what is. What is the. Bring us through the history and the journey of the scope of your work.

Yes. So my uncle has one of most amazing stories. There is he in Appa Valley. So he escaped communism and could not return to former Yugoslavia until Croatia gained independence. He went to Germany. And why did he end up to Napa Valley? First of all, he studied and became winemaker. And when he was still in school in Zagreb, Croatia, his professor went to visit UC Berkeley. And then one weekend they took him to Napa. So when he came back, this would be early 50s, when he came back, he gathered five trusted students because there was lots of spies there and the professor could not speak freely. He could not praise United States. He had to say publicly that capital, all capitalists are bad, all capitalistic countries are bad versus Communist Communism was great. So when he gathered them and they asked him, teacher, teacher, tell us, what did you see? He said, I saw paradise in Napa Valley. And my uncle told me later that night he couldn't, he was so excited about that story and he couldn't sleep. And then he was thinking, why do I have to wait to die to go to paradise if I can just walk into it? And that's, that's why he picked Nampa. He could have stayed in obviously France, Germany or anywhere. That's how he came here. He worked for many notable wineries like BV Bolivina, Robert Mondavi, Chateau Montalena. While he was there, there was a tasting now famous Paris tasting in 76 that his wine that he made for Chateau Montrella winery beat all French best charones, best shirts in the world by that was.

There's an entire book written about that. Yes, that blind taste testing that he trumped.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so of course there was just like NBA team Cleveland playing against high school team with LeBron and making to managing to lose. And that will be all over news for a few days. So that was something shocking and all. Every paper in the United States brought that they called my uncle, he had no idea about this tasting. New York Times call him. And he said, are you, are you joking with me? Please don't embarrass me. I'm a little Mike Gargich immigrant. So are you sure that's me? Say yes, Mike, that's you. And so he became known overnight. Every winery wanted him to be their winemaker, but he wanted to strike on his own and he partnered with Austin Hills. So we have partners and they open Winery in 77. Mike waited to be the 4th of July because he wanted to break ground on the 4th of July because he thought it was his independence day. Now he has his own business.

That's an incredible story.

Yes. To go a bit further, when they opened winery, they had no acreage, no vineyards, all grapester bought very small production. And then Mike used his old world philosophy by never borrowing money. They made money, invested money, their own money. And took him 29 years to develop winery to present size. And main focus those early years was to make money and buy land. So by 2003 we achieved that goal. That year we became a state. So now we own about 450 acres of land in Napa. Valley, about 300 are 100 vineyards because we don't plant every inch. Obviously we can talk a bit later about what we do in terms of biodiversity and living some land unplanted.

So you have about 300 acres of grapes in production. And does the winery. Do you only use your own grapes for winemaking? You're also still buying grapes?

No, we stopped buying grapes in 2003. So we don't sell, we don't buy. We grow what we grow. And the Production is from 50,000 to 65,000 cases. Yeah, something like that. In a. These extreme years. So. So production varies slightly.

Yeah, so there are dozens. There are, there are many wine labels. And I am not intimately familiar with the space, but it's my perception and my understanding that Girgage Hills is considered one of the premier quality wines in the marketplace.

Yes, and I have to give you credit for improving that perception and quality because since we started gentle farming, there's no question quality is better than ever. We talk about phytochemicals and so when I promote our wines, I actually rarely talk about wine. So another funny story with my uncle. There's so many of them and I always want to involve him because he was somebody who brought me here and gave me this chance and learned so much from him. So I always want to give him credit and involve him in our stories. Maybe two weeks before his passing, he passed away. Almost one on one, long life. He never retired. Literally two weeks before his passing, he was coming here to tasting room and selling wine. That was his passion, sell wine to people. And at that time he couldn't walk. He didn't have cancer or anything else, but was old age. He just was getting weaker and weaker. So I would roll him around and typically he would wave to people, say a few things. But he would just let me speak to people and was entertaining this group of six people. And I talked to about 15 minutes, then suddenly Mike pulls me for my shirt. So I leaned down and said, yes, Mike. He said, ivo, you've been talking to these people 15, 20 minutes. You never mentioned that we make wine or sell wine. All you talk is soil bacteria. Bacteria. I'm tired of this. Can you say, tell these people to that we make wine? So it was so just to illustrate, get back to your question. I'm so passionate about this farming. I have six kids. I deeply worried how they want to grow up. Youngest 18, 19, oldest 32. Global warming, everything. So I'm using winery and our name to promote this farming. And so far I think I Touched thousands of people. I never found anybody who is rejecting this. Everybody's interested in who is not interested in living healthy and healthy life. So. So I have unique opportunity to promote this farming. And my dream and goal is to convert all Napa Valley into Regente farming at obvious. As you know, it's hard to change people's minds and. And it's moving. Progress is very slow.

Well, you also have an interesting opportunity from the perspective that wine is one of the very few agricultural products that are directly compensated for improved quality and where that improved quality is directly experienced by the consumer.

John, are you aware of any apples pairs that one pound of these apples is $1 and then then another kind of pear is $1500 per pound? No, unheard of. Maybe twice, three times, let's say not 100, not thousand times. So this is what we have in our industry. So you can buy good bottle of Cabernet Sauvignon for $20 and you still. You can probably pay $2,000 for same vintage, apparently, if you're not really into it. Similar wine, similar alcoholic product. And why? Because people perceive that $2,000 wine has incredible quality and it's a piece of art. So how can we get there? Well, my theory is that we get there through kind of this farming and having these phytochemicals which are responsible in our fruit, vegetables for most delicious flavors. Same thing in grapes. Contrary to popular belief here in Appavali, that great wine is made by genius. Winemaker, great wine is made by great grapes. Unless you have superior grapes, you cannot ever dream to make good wine. Winemaker is here just to make sure that nothing is lost in the process of fermentation?

I seem to recall a similar comment. I forget, was it from Greg Penrol or from someone else who said something to the essence, that great wine is made in the field, not in the winery.

Absolutely correct. Yeah.

So let's talk a little bit about the. The development and the evolution of your cultural management practices and your farming practices. You've been there for half a century and how have you. How have you seen things evolve?

Excellent question. So when I took over grape growing in late 19, 1990s, my uncle was so busy running business, traveling, that he had no chain time to manage vineyards. So he found miniature vineyards management company. And when I took over, I realized they're using glyphosates. Not heavily, but some. And every year they used mineral fertilizers. So when I came home and asked Mike, why are we using these chemicals? He said, stop. I had no idea Stop them right away. And then said, can we turn organic? He said absolutely. That's what we done in our home country. So starting with 2000, we stopped using all chemicals. By 2003 we certified organic all five vineyards. So I mentioned we have 300 net acres, but they are in five different locations from very south to very north to Napa. So we went on with the organic farming and then we also embraced bionamic farming. And we were certified the matter for a few years. Until UC Davis professor scold my uncle and scare him and told him that you're gonna lose all your prestige that you build all your life because these are voodoo practices. And only crazy people are doing this lunatics. So Mike, don't go there. And so Mike didn't want controversy. And he told me to do whatever I want to vineyard, but to remove certificates from battle and to remove all published materials. And none say that we are doing bionamic farming. I thought he was kidding, but it was serious obvious that he wasn't. So at that time we had 45 employees. So I just took. I walked around and asked everybody what they thought about bionic farming, yes or no? 44 including me said yes. Only one guy said no, Mike. But he was so powerful that he overruled us. And so we had to publicly stop using. But. But we continue to this day. We still make preparations. I have Frenchmen and we have cows and we make preparations our farm and apply them. And a bit later on we can discuss now actually by after using regenerative farming for a while now I can explain and I would love to hear your opinion this how these preparations work. So. So let's move on. Everything was improving. But one most important parameter in healthy soil, I would think everybody will agree would be soil organic matter, which is fairly easy to measure. It's reliable for any lab. I was frustrated. I'm very impatient man. How slow we were gaining soil organic matter. Only later on through regenerative farming, I understood why. So we were growing massive cover crop based on bell beans and stuff like that. Lots of volume up there. And then we would cut it in spring and. And cultivate it. And I thought wrongly, my God, all those microbes will munch on, on that nice cover crop and turn it into beautiful soil organic matter. Took us 15 years to get to gain 1% of solar organic matter, which is coexistent. Actually, when I read little this white papers, that's what it is. It's almost impossible to gain soil organic matter. And of course if you're tilling soil and doing your stuff. Yeah, you're burning it. You basically all that carbon that was in plants end up. Ends up mostly in atmosphere. Once we turned to regenerative farming in 2018, just last year, I had 32 samples and my, on average, soil organic matter gain in one year was 0.9%. Almost 1% in one year. It was amazing. So. So this is exactly what I hoped. And actually, even for this year, it was a bit slower because of different rainfall, but still gain. So every year, I would say we gain at least half percent on average every year. So we had sandy soil, probably when we started was 0.5% pure sand. I think, John, you were in that vineyard and it was beach sand.

Yeah.

Today is 2.6% pure scent. Yeah.

This is actually in a. Let's. Let's dive into this a little bit evo, because there is this. This perspective, this belief that if you have sandy soils, then you should never expect to build organic matter beyond perhaps 1% or 1 and a half percent, because it will become so rapidly oxidized that it will just disappear. And yet that's not been your experience. How are you managing to maintain that? And how. Also how are you developing it in the first place?

So we are having massive cover crop, and with a very diverse cover crop, we put up to 20 or almost 30 different seeds. Unfortunately, obviously, not everything's perfect. We have. I wouldn't call them native grasses because I was reminded that the perennial rye or annual rye is not native, but we have lots of grasses like that or wild ripe grass and stuff like that. So they are so strong there, and they choke our seeds that it puts. So every year we are kind of trying something different to. I would love to have 30 different species. So we do have still pretty good biodiversity. So in a normal year, when you have normal rainfall, this cover crop grows massive. And then right now we. I'm experimenting half. We cut grass, and now we have at least 3 to 4 inches of intense mulch. So you don't see any soil. So it's insulated and cool. Or we roll it. We have that crimper roller. And so I'm still. It's debate which way is better to go. So obviously for that to work perfectly, you would need to grow Celia rye. But I don't want to have just Celia rye. Some. Some plants are. It's, you know, you roll them and they pop back quickly.

I was about to ask if. If termination is important for you, and so are you able to terminate successfully by the various species that you have by cutting them as compared to rolling them is that one of the reasons.

For considering that termination is done by mother Nature. We have last rainfall in late February and then we have 0.3 inches of rain total grand total of 0.3 inches in March and grand total of 0.3 inches In April. John. So it's been two and a half months, virtually no rain. And so right now that's why we called California golden state. All these grasses, they dry. They are in our case actually because of biodiversity, they are still green. But I'm not waiting for them to completely dry. This is another experiment. We are trying to cut chop these native grasses before they fully mature seeds. So I'm trying to reduce bank of seeds from these native grasses to give my seeds better chance. So, so basically strategies to just to cover soil. And I have so many pictures of this young vineyard, same block that you visited in 2022. We just planted it. It's unbelievable. It's a myth that these so called wheats. There's no such thing as wheats. And I like to point out that some people are called terrorists and for one set people and they are freedom fighters for other set of people. So. So I feel like weeds are just like that. Yeah, yeah. And every plant is there for a reason. Of course, you know this. And I have pictures to prove my young wind. Like when it was only 14 months old, our shoots were 6ft tall and all around surrounded with these old native plants, so called weeds. So it's a myth that, that all these plants steal nutrients and water. So I'm not afraid of anything growing. We just don't allow these grasses to grow or have a crop to grow into canopy. So we might weed whack them a little bit if they are too tall.

Okay. So in essence, if I'm understanding correctly, what you're saying is how you're building organic matter today versus not having been as successful historically, is that you are, you've changed your cover crop species from a few species that were legume dominant to diverse species that have fewer legumes.

Yes. And I strongly believe that while it's necessary to use some micronutrients, if you see that they are deficient to prime the process that I believe strongly that overwhelmingly you build soil organic matter through root exudates. So you have to have functioning plants green as long as possible. So now we have wonderful situation here in Napa Valley that we have Mediterranean climate that is dry and fairly warm during eight months. But then in winter our average temperature is the lowest average temperature in July is might be 49 degrees. So we have nice rainfall. This year we got minimum in American Canyon winner that you visited. There was 18 inches here in Rata for 34 inches, which is very nice. And so we have plenty moisture in winter and nice temperature. So you can grow massive cover crop. Just imagine that versus soil being bare. So during dormancy. So for your listeners that are not familiar with grape points, they drop leaves since in November, December they go dormant and then in typical early April they start budding. So all these four or five months, basically it's a perfect time for our cover crop to take over. So by doing this, even though now in the next few weeks all this grass that we or cover crops will be yellow dead, now we have grape points fully ripe. So in our system, I would say for at least 11 months we have something green growing on our soil, which is I think absolutely necessary.

Yeah, that's so important. So I'm going back to something you said just a bit ago and I'm doing a double take. You said you are, you're able to grow 6 foot long vines in 14 months.

Yes. So we plant great wine.

How does that compare with normal rate of growth?

Probably two or three times. But I just wanted to illustrate that not only that we have incredible vigor in growing these plants. Also caveat, these are strong rootstocks. Many people made big mistakes last 20, 30 years when they planted so shallow rootstocks. So again, for those your listeners, they're not familiar. Overwhelmingly all vineyards are planted on American roots because of phylloxera. So there is different kind of roots. If you, if you went to Mississippi and got these native American grapevines next to river roots need, need not to go deep because there is too much water. So they are shallow roots. So there's a category, roots that are very shallow. Some for some reason winemakers fell in love with those. Then if you go to Texas around some creeks, you find these rootstocks that go down there 20, 30ft. Despite popular belief there is so called drought resistant rootstocks, there's no drought. Do you know any human that is drought resistant, that doesn't have to drink for a month? There's no such thing. We have all have to drink. Plants have to drink every day. Only difference is you have very deep massive root system. So now when we replant, we plant that. So back to your question. So one reason of incredible growing is that, but also it is not necessary to, to clean and cultivate the, the, the vegetation around grapevine so in our case we would have two shoots. They are six feet tall and then surrounded with all these so called weeds. And I just took a bunch of pictures to prove to people because most people believe that if you do that your, your shoots will be yellow and foot tall. Which is proved. That is not true.

Yeah, yeah. And you also, you have root systems that are so much deeper that there's to a degree they are. They're certainly not competing for water and there's even to a large degree that they're not competing for nutrients.

So John, find me wrong. But. So I want to push these roots deep. So if they're kind of compet. Go, go away. You, you. The grasses cannot grow. You know, the most of these grasses only are down 18 inches. So go deep. I want you plan to go deep, look for water and there is no competition down there. So this is exactly actually not bad thing to do to have that. I do not my roots to be superficially shallow. I want our roots to be down deep. And also John, my theory, I have lots of theories. You'll know soon. I believe that when roots are deep they, they can find these micro trace elements that are so necessary for. For these phytochemicals. And that's my theory of. Everybody knows that old vineyards older than 20 or 30 years old produce superior quality. Some people say oh, just because they have nutrient reserve of carbohydrates in their trunk roots maybe. I believe also because they, they search, they go deep everywhere and they have access to these trace elements that young plants don't. And that's my theory about why the older plants have superior quality of grapes.

I certainly think that that theory makes more sense than it than the idea that they have more carbohydrate reserves because trunk diameter doesn't change significantly. Yeah. There is this, this belief or this paradigm that in order to have optimal soil health it is also necessary to include livestock in the ecosystem in some way. We know Kelly Mulville's work in with incorporating sheep into vineyards. Have you, have you considered incorporating sheep or livestock into your vineyard in any way?

Been there, done that.

That sounded like past tense.

Yeah, yeah. So we started immediately with the. When we flipped the regenerative farming again by virtue of listening literally thousands of hours of podcasts, you and other people realized that if you want to go speed 5, use animals, in this case sheep. And I have. I'm dealing with wonderful herdsman by name of Robert Irvine and his business. He has probably 30000 sheep. And so he brings them here to Napa. And we rent them and I pay about 100 to $150, depends how many times he has to move them per acar. So he charges me flat fee $100 to $150 per acre. So first time I heard that, I was grinding my teeth and said, Robert, just imagine I'm going to my favorite very expensive restaurant here in Napa Valley and I'm eating whatever I want best food, and then it's all free. And then on my way out, the owner gives me 100 bucks. That's what you're doing to me. So I'm sorry, Evil, but you know, there's such a demand, you know, I said, I'm just kidding. I very happy to pay you 100 bucks for services. Before I forget. So this year with all our every year, we're improving diversity of COVID crop. He came smiling, said Evil, we just harvested lamb in your properties. After two months they gained on average 8 pounds more than, than your neighbors that are conventional farmers. And why it's more nutritional feed, but also by the worse. And I told them, don't go to these guys there. They sprained with glyphosate and also have one, maybe one kind of grass. Would you really like to eat steak? 365 twice a day. Who can live on that? Yeah. So we are forcing our animals to do that, eat same one kind of grass for every day of their lives.

You are doing that currently and what, what is the, what does the timing of that look like with your, with your winter, summer season? What, what time of the year are you coming in with the sheep? And how much, how much biomass are they removing?

This is why this is so much fun. And for me this is like a little kid playing with toys. So there's so many experiments that you do. And like you said, once I could say I have 40 years of experience of army, now I have 40 different experiences. So everyone is different. I'm hoping that to learn. And it's true. I learn something new every year and apply it and things get better and better. So we are experimenting with sheep in two ways. So it's intensive grazing. We put let's say 500 sheep over three cars. We enclose them with the electric wire and, and the dog, they're all accompanied by dog and keep them only 24 hours. So our goal is to, to remove about 50%. So obviously sheep eat some trample stuff, but we don't let them be selective. We want them to eat everything. That's why it's so important to have pretty good mass of them per car. Then we move them. So we move them all the time. I see people here in Upper Valley, they have no idea. No contest. That's why contest is everything. They bring sheep and they keep them next to Special Highway 21 for photo op for three, four weeks. And then poor sheep, after one week they ate, they go digging, there's nothing to eat. They dig for roots and then soil is compacted. Every vineyard, every one of those vineyards when I pass six months after is depressed. It's actually they. They killed vigor because they compacted and they, they would have been better off without sheep. So obviously everything in life use with cautious. The glass of wine is probably good, but if you drink two bottles of wine, it'll kill you. Yeah. Same with food.

Yeah. So you haven't fully answered the question yet on seasonality of the sheep. What, what are you discovering is optimal? Are you there for the entire winter season or are you only there for closer towards the end?

Thank you for reminding me that. I mean there like left and right. So I'm gonna go back in the center.

It's my job.

Thank you. Thank you. I. I'm too excited even see. I'm excited even talking to you. Too excited to tell you so there's so many stories. So back to your question. Typically we plant right before first rainfall. First rainfall, they come in up about mid October, sometimes bit late. And then within two, three weeks everything is green, there is germination. And we typically By New Year January 1st, we have probably 10 to 12 inches new new plants, new cover crop is growing at which time we bring sheep. As of, as of late we are actually being doing it bit earlier. Why we noticed that after first rainfall, native grasses germinate and grow like crazy. The COVID crop germinates, but seems like it's not moving after coming out and stops there. Only inch or two tall grass grows to 8, 10 inches. So this is actually a good opportunity bring sheep. And so they overwhelmingly eat those native grasses that are, are, are growing non stop. And then by doing that we allow obviously when they graze that takes them a few weeks to kind of there's a shock to recover. And then that gives our cover crop that seeds that we put in chance to establish a bit more. So basically then we have window opportunity which is only from January 1st to maybe maximum April 15th. As soon as we have buds, we have to move them out. That's some people are now planting grape points and putting fruit wire higher. Meaning the first shoot it'll be four or five feet away from ground instead. What is normal here, maybe 30, 32 inches. But I don't see great need when I dry grass and to bring them sheep in July and August. Also I'm not an expert. I'm busy as is. I'm working 18 hours a day already. I don't need sheep to worry about sheep. So for me this is perfect. I just rent sheep and then my dear friend Robert has to worry about them for rest of the year. But he knows what he's doing.

I have a feeling you might, Robert might have some competition after this episode airs for your contract.

Oh, there is, there is already 10, 15, which is mind boggling. So this is popular now John, just like but people doing this because it's popular. They don't, they're not the gentle farming. They're still spraying glyphosate and stuff like that overwhelmingly. But it's, it's, it's, it's, it's really popular. Let's see how long it's gonna be popular.

Yeah. So we started down this earthworm hole when you were talking about your farming operation and the journey that you were on. And then we took this tangent down the earthworm hole of organic matter. How you've been building organic matter and actually I should ask you the question of to what degree do you think the sheep have contributed to the organic matter development versus your mix of COVID crops? How to what degree have those overlapped?

So John, I don't have scientific proofs but I believe through grazing and, and enzyme in that they live, they promote. I, I, I see the before they graze cover crop is sparse and just like your hair, you know like opposite. I'm losing my hair right now, you can see. But it's true. And, and you just have sheep graze my hair and all of a sudden it not just the grows because on the side it grows always good but in the middle is missing. So all of a sudden sheep graze my hair and grows back like everywhere. So that's what I see observe. So the turf becomes much more like density twice and gotta be probably hormones or whatever. Needless to say. Yeah, go ahead.

That increased density is also going to influence the roots and the root biomass and root exudates and all those pieces that are happening.

So we do have better cover crop. I never measure, I mean I could spend all my life measuring everything but I can see visually that that density or dry mass above the ground, it's tremendous. When I stick my shovel it's, it's sometimes it's hard because it's so many roots there. So I know that below ground and above ground there's a huge amount of carbon there.

When you talk about having it be difficult to stick your shovel in the ground and obviously it's dry occasionally, but with the sandy soil that you have, that's, that's saying something significant.

Yeah.

So let's, let's go back to where we diverged away from the, the trail. Tell us a bit more about how your farm has developed over the last. Since you started going down the pathway of regenerative farming, what, what have you observed? How have things shifted and changed?

So ultimately the, the scorecard is what kind of grapes you have, what kind of wine we make. And that's undeniable. Not just that I believe many people notice this and scores, even though I'm not big fan of scores, but they are much higher now than, than five or 10 years ago. So last maybe four or five years, we started replanting some vineyards. And we started with knowledge, originality farming. We started from day one with that versus all other vineyards that we converted to organic regenerative. Bionamic has been there for 25, 30 or 50, 60 years. So many mistakes were made and they were already a disease. So to give you another analogy, if you have a cancer, stage four cancer, it's too late now to start eating blueberries and stuff like that. You might have to have chemotherapy. But if you started for your mom when you were mom's tummy, when your mom eating good food and you continue eating food as a baby, then I'm pretty sure you have immunity. So you see, John, it's hard to. We just started. Now we inherited all these problems. We, for example, 25 years ago I was planting, replanting these vineyards. We were all obsessed with these French clones. They call them suitcase clones. It is illegal to bring cuttings from France to California. We people did because we thought, let's go to this famous French estate and get clones and we'll have same quality. Unknown to us, we were also transferring viruses. So many of these famous clones that I got from other growers, they were full of virus. So we started with a very dirty, unclean plant material. So now when we plant, we go to Washington strait. There's no red bloods there. Overwhelmingly they're much cleaner. And then we get these clean materials. So we start with clean plants. So to answer your question, I can't wait. I already see results. It's that winner that you've been in there you would not recognize it. That health, the leaves, the shine, the grow, how they grow, it's amazing. Amazing to see it. Those vineyards that were pretty sick five, seven years ago, they're still there. We still harvest good grapes, very high quality grapes, but they're slowly declining. So I hope, I hope I answered your question. So what we had before that was 50, 20, 30 years old. It's. We are maintaining it. Most people replant after 15 years. We got more productivity, good quality. But there's many missing wines and there's many weak wines for a variety of reasons.

Yeah. And I can tell that you're looking forward to replacing those.

Yeah, yeah.

So when you talk to customers, when your uncle Mike was telling you that you haven't yet talked about selling wine, what are the stories that you're telling them?

Overwhelmingly stories about farming. So today, I think especially younger people are seeking more than just good quality, high quality. They are seeking authentic people. They are seeking authentic farm. They're seeking or farming, seeking authentic product. And regenerative farming offers all this. When you're farmer, by the per definition, you cannot be arrogant. Many of these wine makers are arrogant because these wine writers made them big stars. They are conceited. Farmer is in awe of nature, good farmer. And so many young people. It resonates. And so while we are in big slump, our wine industry, its sales are going down year after year. Just in Europe. I was there a month ago. I was shocked to learn that in the European Union in last 14 years, the sales are cut in half. So people are drinking only half what they were drinking in 2010. So dramatic. That's 3.3% every year, year after year down. That's why they're dumping their wine here. Unlike in California when you had orchard, or let's say peaches in Central Valley and then you heard that your neighbor is making killing on grapes, and you ripped 5,000 acres of peaches and planted grapes. By the time you got grapes, market collapse. Now you have to remove your vineyard to plant peaches. Nobody's paying you for that. No government in France. These growers, they have no market, Nobody's buying their wine. They still insist because they had this vineyard for 500 years there in family hands. Government has to support them, so they may artificially, they maintain too much, too much, too high supply. There's more wine today than people are willing to drink. That's why we all in trouble at the moment.

That's interesting. And yeah, it's just recently, I think, I don't know what the data looks like right now. But I thought wine was California's number one agricultural export in terms of market value. Is that in danger of being no longer in the number one spot?

So obviously it's very difficult to talk about export with these tariffs. So we lost 1,000 cases to Canada. So they obviously stopped buying. So there was our biggest exporter and we'll have probably zero since April. Zero cases. So hopefully this will be somehow resolved in some rational, reasonable way. By the moment. We are suffering because of tariffs. But we. Even before that people bring European wines here virtually paying nothing tariffs and then they will protect their market. Unlike tires, cars, when obviously tariffs were more controlled. Nobody cared for wine. So many people in this country believe that wine is sin and so nobody cares. They always had problem with alcohol in this country and so wine was always neglected. And. And also secondly business huge distributors, they are importers. So they don't want tariffs on European wines either. So they don't care. If it's fair that France is imposing 25 taxes tariffs on. On California wines. And when they bring wines here there's no tariffs. That's obviously not fair. But distributors didn't care for that.

A little bit ago you said you made the comment that you're. You're so excited because there's so many. There's so many stories. There's so many things that you are observing and experiencing that you're very excited. The things that you're experiencing. Tell us a bit about those. What are some of the highlights? What are some of the memorable moments that stand out for you?

The. The like living forces in vineyard like the noise in vineyard from insects. I wish we had more but we have better than far better amounts than our neighbors and the general health. But also when you know that we have a literally huge threat of to our industry here due to virus that is called red blotch. Now people are removing minards after five, six years and. And so people are too scared to even talk about it. If you come to Napa Valley Today, there's probably 25 vineyards are this year removed. They can linger if they're selling wine and stuff like that. You know they would still keep them for a few more years. But now since sales are hard to find this they believe it's a good way to replant. But most of these vineyards are only 1517 years old. Some of them as young as 5 years old. This is. You do it twice, you're bankrupt. Nobody can afford costs 75000 minimum to to replant per car and so when I am so enthused by possibility of regenerative farming to be able to grow something and not to see it succumb after a few years. If you grower and you love your farm, there's nothing worse than, than doing your best and, and seeing it succumb to diseases. So when you feel like that you discover system that you can grow and produce healthy, healthy produce without using these chemicals. It's so powerful. That's what makes my life.

Have you been, have you been observing what, what incidents or pressure have you been observing from red blotch in your newer vineyards that you've been planting?

We had vineyard planted nine years ago and we started. Now we are doing some tests. Actually my son Jake is doing this PCR test that anybody can do. But also main thing, main way we know about red blotch is after certainly three, four years of when you plant grape points, they show intense red leaves turn red in September, October. So in our case we had less than than 1% in incidence after nine years. Mind you, our neighbor pool vineyard that was at 60% incidence and it was only five years old. So I will never say that regenerative farming solves all problems, removes virus or virus will never come to vineyard. Absolutely not. I believe that virus, we have to learn how to coexist with virus. And just like Covid. Covid. Some people had Covid and same load of virus. I believe like people who died and they didn't even know they had Covid. Why they had immunity. This is, this is obvious example. That's how nature works. So our job in our farming is to enhance immunity and health of plants and then they can coexist with virus. So in this example I can already see that yes, we do have virus, of course. But first of all, it's not spreading like wildfire with other vineyards. And then even if you have it, grapes are still of good quality and of. Of. We don't lose quantity, we don't use yields. For example, it is published by UC Davis that when you have red blotch Instead of having 24 or 25 Brix grapes, sugar level, you might only get 17 18%, 5 to 7 points less. @ which point also you don't have anti semis and you have total inferior grapes. Nobody's gonna buy you grapes. In our case we are down I because I selected I see clearly which is virus, which is not. We pick separately. Each ones are the green ones. Clean months are 24 bricks. Virus ones are 23 bricks. One brick difference, one point difference. One point difference. And which is actually we hate high alcohol. So for us this is good. We want to make lower alcohol. But is true ones that have virus tannins are bit rougher. That's true. Yet if you age wine properly for years might be even more complex sometimes in a different strange year. I did it blindly and have other winemakers, they actually picked virused wine to be better than wine plant from a clean plant. So it's a meadow taste though it's not like it's spoiled wine ruined versus not in our case. So this is regenerative farming is is allowing you to continue how if you're.

Seeing the plants express themselves that differently. You mentioned a little bit ago that you are using deeper rootstocks as compared to the historical use of shallow rootstocks. I was about to ask you how are you seeing plants express themselves differently as a result of the COVID crop change and just the total cultural management changes that you've been making. How are you seeing things change with plant expression?

A couple observations come to mind. First one is that sheen and grapes which I believe is contributed by more of leaf and berry coating cuticle which we call cuticle waxy coat. Obviously you eloquently explain how that works, how plants produce that. I believe that I told you already how those cuticle. What a cute thing you have there next to you.

Yeah. Usually I usually remember to close my door before I walk in here. But yeah.

Yeah. So my uncle would like to say I have six kids. And he encouraged me. He said Ivo, the kids are your wealth. It's not money, it's kids is your wealth. Yeah. So John, don't stop. One is not good enough. So back to our business with cuticles. In 2022 we had the severe fires in Napavalian smoke and about 40 to 50% of Napavali cabernet was left unpicked because people quickly made small batches smelled wine. Ah yuck. It smells like burn log. Million hundreds of millions dollars of damage. We picked every cluster and made wine. We kept smelling. I was very nervous every day smelling in tank. Nothing. No problem. We sent all samples to lab in Australia. They have best lab for smoked ain't Australian wine Research Institute. And then we sent 19 vintage which obviously had no smoke. Everything was very similar. And also there's thresholds. We were 10 times less than threshold to smell that let's say Guaya coal. Also we got very high scores from some wine writers. Not to care about score, but they would not give us good score if wine was Ruined. How do you explain this? And our neighbors which had same smoke could not make wine. My, my theory again just theory. I have no scientific proof is that because of this the cuticle on, on. On berries smoke was sealed. So smoke could not enter our berries. So just in one, this one incident, the regenerative farming save us probably $10 million. If he couldn't make wine, it will be lost at least of $10 million.

All right, let's. Let's dig into this a little bit deeper. Why you spoke about the glossy waxy sheen on the leaf surface and having thicker cuticles, but how does that attribute to no smoke taint on your berries versus having smoke taint on grape berries that are 100 yards away?

So you're aware when most growers spray fungicides, because we have mildew, in order for fungicide to work properly has to be absorbed by plants through leaves or berries. In our great wisdom, we invented these chemicals that melt cuticle so that efficiency of the spray is increased. But then when you remove them, we.

Call them penetrating agents.

Yes, when we remove protective agents, just if you scrape your, your skin and you'll get infection immediately. So same again, I don't have any scientific proofs, but I use common sense. I think that sometimes it's good enough. And I believe when you do that, then you allow the smoke to enter. So that's my explanation. Not only that we have more cuticles than normal vineyard, but we did not, we do not use obviously these systemic fungicides have intact plants that are able.

To protect themselves on a couple of occasions. Ivo, you've mentioned that you have a lot of different theories about how things work. What are some other theories that you have that are different from the mainstream point of view?

So we discuss smoke taint, we discuss also phytochemicals and trace elements that I believe are obtained through extensive and deep rootings. What else there is then? I strongly believe that best way to restore fertility and health of soil is through cover crops, through multi species cover crops. Also, I believe that early on, if you analyze your SAP of your plant and you see their deficiency, we know that we are deficient borons. So after a few years, kind of not really believing it's necessary. Now I don't even wait for first SAP analysis. We start early because in our business, first SAP analysis is done in mid June. By time shoots are big enough to create basal leaves and all leaves and young leaves. So through experience we start applying small amounts, but regularly we have to spray anyway every two weeks. And it's so easy to put tiny bit of boron, copper. These few elements that I know that are gonna be short. So I can wait our first results this year I started earlier than ever and instead of putting one gallon, I'm putting maybe quarter but every time and in, in the. In every two weeks. So. So I believe that's also very important when plants have nutrients. Now we can discuss who decided what are optimum amount of nutrients. Of course for not for each clone, for each rootstock and stuff like that, but through observation and kind of gut feel. So you might laugh at me, but I really rely heavily on my gut feel feelings. So I'm not sure how many farmers do that, but I do.

All of the best managers that I've ever worked with depended on their intuition.

Intuition is very important.

Yes. Yeah. So let's, let's dig into this a little bit more because you mentioned about shallow roots docks versus the deeper roots docks and these. The need to go deeper to have access to trace minerals and to a larger, larger reserve, a larger bank of trace minerals. When you were observing that some of the blocks that you're working with need that they're just systemically low in boron and copper, for example, are those blocks that have the older rootstocks that are shallower. What does that look like?

It's actually excellent question because we don't see difference between older and younger. It's across different soils. So I just have to have in sandy soil, older vineyard, 25 year old vineyard and we just replanted three, four, five years ago. Younger vineyard numbers are similar. So tells me that. And needless to say we run soil analysis and we know that there's no boron. So boron. I'm just keep boron because it's obvious all other elements go up and down but boron is consistently low. So this year we put also soluble in soil different levels. £20 and £40 plus we are doing foliar. So I would say it's just a lack of lots of particular nutrient in the soil and how I would hope that I don't have to do this forever. It's. It's boring to have to put everything storage on. Maybe I'm gonna put you out of business if. No, no, I'm talking nutrients. But the idea is here is that you get everything in. In a recycling mode and then you collect and then everything is. Nature is recycling. So why not like we're not collecting enough boron and then you, you once you have that then you have recycling going on.

Exactly. Particularly with your diverse cover crops and your sheep grazing and everything else that you have going on, you would think that that would be possible. And. And you're also a lower rainfall environment for the most part.

Yeah, so that. So one other thing that I observed John, that you. You asked me is, is that in old days you go in June, July, mid June and you see one berry of mildew. That means you come there in seven days, half a cluster will be full mildew. I was a bit shocked. First time I observed one berry was right. One single berry of full of mildew in the middle of cluster. And I came 10 days after a mark plant and that berry was black. That mildew was killed. I didn't do anything special. And so this was for me like something triggering. Meaning just recently.

In the last couple years.

Last year. Yeah, last year. So my explanation again my theory is that basically that single berry triggered respond other berries. So they sacrifice one berry and to. To create immunity which.

So that berry turned into a mummy is what you're saying?

Yeah, it's basically when. When active mildew is powdery, then if it's dead mean you can kill it with something then turns black. But you never see that just one stays one. It always just like apple when it starts rotting, it's. There's no way that it will even stop rotting. It'll continue. Right. Once it starts. So when mildew starts even can spray cluster, it'll continue to grow. Marley. So this was something that I read in books or heard podcasts, that basically tiny bit of inoculum. Isn't that vaccination kind of something that you basically trigger response by plant? So this was very interesting observation. This can only happen obviously plants that have a ability to respond. Many plants are too weak to respond, I believe.

Yeah, yeah. So this is. How do you reconcile your. The use of soil amendments and boron applications with biodynamic practices? There is this. Yeah. I could offer some clarification but I'll just, I'll. I'll stop my question there.

Yes. So some cynical journalists asked me a few years ago, oh you Every few years you change your farming. You know, you're always looking for something new. And I could expect explain why bionomic was enough. So when we started Bionomic and we know why bionomic failed the United States. These guys are fighting and who's. Who's the holiest? Who's next? Everything starts as Steiner said. Steiner said. I don't like that Steiner said dogma. Steiner gave indications and other. His pupils kind of develop it. And so basically all I was taught by this famous bionomic practitioner and who forced me to listen Steiner's or lecture given by his wife about anthroposophy. I was not interested in movement, I was interested in farming. But we had, in order to sign up with him we had to go eight hours classes every week for, for months listening anthroposophy. And he told me omildo easy, easy. We just make exquisiteum tea, horsetail tea. And Steiner said when you spray that on plants it pushes mildew. Mildew is supposed to stay in the soil, not up there. And you all you have to do spray it, you'll see no mildew. And he wanted to do whole vineyard. I allow him only two acres, one corner block. I was on road trip in Europe. I came back two weeks after. I can see it for a mile. Whole 2 acres were full of mildew. And they say oh stop spray, spray, spray. So this is example that just spraying these portions cannot solve everything. You still have to be good farmer. You have to understand your soil. When I, when I was planting cover crops said why are you doing that? You'll need that. You have, you have, you have preparations. So preparations are just almost like spicing on your, your food. And also I, I already mentioned early on that I thought I understood preparations through regenerative farming. I think preparations are no, nothing more than, than biochemical stimulants. That's how I see them. They stimulate. That's why they, they, you have to use small amounts, parts per trillion. Yeah. And that's if that's why they can work. People couldn't understand. Oh yeah, understand this 500. It's common over in Horn and probably full of bacteria. But it's so small. How can it work over 1 acre, 1 ounce? Well it can because biochemical signaling works in incredibly small amounts.

Yeah. When we look at hormonal signaling or just yeah. Chemical signaling, there's. I think Greg Pennyroyal shares the story. I don't know if he spoke about it on the podcast or not, but one part of Greg's work was with in developing helping to co develop the US Pharmacopoeia for Homeopath Homeopathic substances. And they ran lab tests on homeopathic substances. And if I remember correctly, the one substance they were testing was Arnica Montana at 30x potency. And 30x potency is the point at which there is no physical substance left. And yet in the laboratory assays that was what produced the greatest response. So there is, there is biophysics based signaling going on that isn't necessarily even chemical signaling that we are still learning to understand.

Yeah. And John, I'm not smart as you, so I. I'm relying on nature to figure everything out. So I try just to try to be friends with nature and not stand in nature's way. And I hope that by doing that that we have a healthy, healthy farm without my intervening too much.

How do you hope to see Gurgich Hills evolve in the future? What do you hope to see develop in the vineyard.

So we will never grow bigger? So this is plenty land and effort. I'm thrilled that my three kids joined and they are as passionate as me. So there is another hopefully 40 years at least continuing. And Jake that you met is very passionate about plants and growing, growing anything. So we just want to increase quality. We have to obviously be able to make it because many wineries are going bankruptcy due to lack of sales or viruses and stuff like that. So we want to continue with the family business to be profitable and they can feed us all and fortify employees. I can see clearly that this farming is enhancing quality and so that's the ultimate goal. I'm not here to claim Gargage hills because of 25 years of original army has best wine in the world. That's nonsense. Obviously. Just like art. There's so much good art. Which one is best? How can you pick best painting from thousands of paintings? It's impossible. That's why scores for wine are so stupid thing to do. You are creating. You have create giving scores to art. Do you assign 100 points to Picasso and only 93 points to Van Gogh and stuff like that? It's nonsense.

Yeah. I'll ask you one last question. What is something that you wish all farmers or all wine growers knew?

I wish they knew that nature is perfect. That while we are very smart people and we invent rockets and cars and phones and computers, we are not smarter in nature. So we thought that we can improve nature. Nature is perfect, doesn't mean improvement. We just hands off, let nature do its work and then we, all of us would be far better place. I believe even global warming could be solved within decade if we regreen everything. And so my hope is that most people sober up and stop being full of themselves and show some respect to mother earth and nature.

Thank you, Ivo. Thanks for being here. Thank you for sharing your experiences and wisdom. I've really enjoyed our conversations and I look forward to many more.

Thank you, John.

The team at AEA and I are dedicated to bringing this show to you because we believe that knowledge and information is the foundation of successful regenerative systems. At aea, we believe that growing better quality food and making more money from your crops is possible. And since 2006, we've worked with leading professional growers to help them do just that. At aea, we don't guess, we test, we analyze, and we provide recommendations based on scientific data, knowledge, and experience. We've developed products that are uniquely positioned to help growers make more money with regenerative agriculture. If you are a professional grower who believes in testing instead of guessing, someone who believes in a better, more regenerative way to grow, visit advancingecoag.com and contact us to see if AEA is right for you.