Is It Easier To Make $100,000 in Medicare or Final Expense? ft. Tony Merwin | Ep89

I always try to tell these newbies, man, that are nervous because they don't know what's coming or what's next or what to do, how to do A, B, and C. I'm like, yo, how the hell you think we feel? Yeah, I don't know shit that's coming up. No, that don't go away.

No, that never stops.

My style, my style. For those that don't know Tony Merwin, welcome to the Insurance Insiders Podcast, my buddy. Appreciate you getting on.

Um, yeah, it's good to be here, man.

Yeah, dude, I remember a couple times when you were on— we were on one hell of a roadshow tour at some point a couple years ago now. And I remember not only learning what AEP meant from stage at one point, and I still have to like process— I, I can tell you the words, I still don't know what the hell it actually means though. I can tell you the, the acronym, but I remember one time you said this thing from stage because all the stuff you just said, I don't know what any of it means either. The Commission Noble, whatever the hell that was. I don't know that stuff. But I remember, dude, you were at this event and you said something about if you got the little card that's blue, white, and red or whatever the hell it is. I'm like, I felt like I knew how to sell Medicare that day, bro.

That's a big part of it, man.

You know, I don't remember the pitch anymore, but I got it right. It's—

I know.

I'm not— I know I'm close. I'm in the ballpark.

You're not too far off of it. But yeah, that's, you know, if you haven't heard from some of your other friends, like a lot of the carriers in the Medicare space have made their plans non-commissionable.

That's that whole thing people were arguing in over court last year, isn't it?

Right. Well, part of it, part of it, not completely.

Whatever. Right. That whole thing.

Not so much. Like there was a big court case that got thrown out where Medicare was trying to come down on the hierarchy, the FMO structure, and they wanted to cut out all the middlemen from making a piece. Thankfully, a Texas judge ruled and said, no, y'all don't have the authority to do that. They threw that whole thing out. But the insurance carriers in the Medicare Advantage world, they're not required to pay commissions. And now that they know they can get away with it at some level, there's a lot of plans where they're saying, hey, we're not going to— this is a non-commissionable plan for next year.

Why would anyone sell it?

They won't unless they absolutely have to. And the carriers are trying to be like— they're purposely trying to discourage them from selling those those plans. Like, in a lot of situations, their plans that are in an area where they're not profitable, it's not a great plan, and they're trying to tee it up to sunset it, to get rid of it and introduce something new. And one of the only ways they can do that is like, well, we're not going to pay you commission if you sell this.

Yeah, insurance companies are— I've learned they're really freaking smart. Yeah. And they know exactly what they're doing when they tweak underwriting and commissions and levels and all this stuff. I'm like, these These motherfuckers know what they're doing.

They do. Unfortunately, Medicare is a highly government-regulated area and they don't know what they're doing very well.

So they swim in the same sea together, mess things up, huh?

Absolutely. Absolutely. So we're fighting through some of that legislation that came out in Medicare last year that created a lot of downward pressure on plans. And plans are feeling the pressure like they're feeling the heat. Their profit margins have gotten shrunk, their risk that they have to take on has gone way up. And so they're like, wow, we, uh, we're losing money on some of these plans, so we have to find a way to sunset them. But we're locked in on a contract, we can't just exit. So let's start by making them non-commissionable, get agents to quit selling them. We'll get all those members moved off, hopefully, and then next year we can sunset it and roll something new out.

So you're definitely old enough to remember when the mortgage industry shut down the world.

Mm-hmm.

Very much. I remember that phase when they changed everything, and then all the people who stuck through it and figured out the muddy waters got wealthy.

Yeah, absolutely.

Sounds like, yeah, where they're figuring some shit out.

Medicare's in a similar space right now. Like, we're very much in a bit of a correction period, right? I mean, we've been on a bull market run for over a decade. Like just printing money in Medicare, and plan growth has been absolutely nuts. And so now they're like, all right, you know, that bubble's kind of popped a little bit, regulations coming back down. So we're in that correction period. If agents are patient and, like you said, right, learn to navigate the murky waters, yeah, and you're going to get out on the other side and we're all going to be fine. It's just going to take a little time.

I love it. So what's, what's the— there's obviously the benefit to continuing to do this and go through it, and it's not my, my lingo, so I don't see the path you see. I, I What do you, what do you, what do you, what are you fighting for and through? And we're like, what do you see for a vision in this sucker for someone watching, just trying to figure it out? Because I do hear a lot of agents want to play in the Medicare space, obviously from renewals and the money long term and all that jazz.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the, the upside to Medicare space of insurance is pretty much the same upside as many others. Like, it's a renewal-based income, right? You're not going to get rich by selling a Medicare plan, but if you can build a book of several thousand clients, you know, that are paying you $30, $40 a month every time they renew their plan. Like, that shit adds up over time, and you can definitely make a very lucrative income in it. Um, the space that we're in right now where it's just more challenging and creating problems, um, is great again for agents that are willing to work through those problems and learn how to navigate it and come out on the other side. And it's even better at some level because there are some agents that are exiting the market. They're like, the hell with this, it's too hard. It's too difficult, right? There's too many problems in it anymore. I want something easy again. And so they're bouncing into different lanes or pivoting in different areas, which is great because that just leaves more pie for everybody else to keep eating. Um, but there's definitely no shortage of agents still trying to get in this space, right, and learn it. Um, I was actually having a conversation with a prospective agent yesterday. She's got her license. She Got recruited by Aflac, found out that was not a right fit and was a load of crap for her. And so, now she just sits like, "Well, I have this license. What do I do with it?" And so, somebody introduced her to me and I explained the world of Medicare to her. And I'm similar to you in a lot of regards. Like, when I talk to prospective agents that are looking at the field, I don't tell them like, "Yeah, jump in. It's easy and you'll make millions." Like, no, I'm like, "It's hard." Like, why? Like, I even asked her, like, what is it about Medicare that's even intriguing to you? And she kind of explained, well, I get to work with old people. I like working with the elderly, great people. I feel like it's more of a service side of the industry. And it is. It's more of an educational sale versus life insurance, where life insurance is a little more— you got to get in front of them and impulse them, right? And remind them, like, hey, this is still a need. Like, why wait? Like, let's get it done. Whereas Medicare is one of those things. So, if they're a 65-year-old, they have to have it, right, by law, or they're going to get penalized. So, it's easy to pick up people when it's commoditized at some level. And then it's just— but the learning curve is just super deep, right? I mean, it takes just to get licensed and ready to sell Medicare, it takes about 4 to 6 weeks in onboarding just for the carriers to get all your stuff, your certifications, everything up and running. And then you still probably have 6 months of learning curve before you even really understand the space. You know, so I have those conversations with prospective agents. I'm like, look, this isn't get rich quick. It's a long onboarding process. It's a deep learning curve. It's easily one of those spaces where agents can very much get stuck in analysis paralysis. You're never— I mean, I've been doing Medicare in a variety of capacities for 21 years. I still don't know everything. I still run into scenarios. I'm like, well, I've never seen that before. Never had that situation come up. And then Medicare changes it every year with the numbers and the costs, and then the regulations and the guidelines change. So, you're always having to learn something new anyway every year. So, again, it's one of those spaces where agents can get caught up in analysis paralysis. I'm like, I can't learn everything. Like, well, you don't need to. Most of it you're just going to have to learn as you go through the process. Because there are things that I could teach an agent. A nuanced situation in Medicare, but they might not ever run into that situation for 5 years. Got it. Really? And then when they run into it, they're like, oh, you told me about that 5 years ago, but I forgot it now. It's like, so I can't— like, there's certain things, like, you— why bother telling you that? Because you may never even see that situation pop up. Like, you're just gonna have to fight through it when you get there.

Yeah, you know me, I feel that way when they ain't gonna see that situation until Tuesday.

I'm like, exactly, like, why bother teaching you that? It's going to be out of your brain already.

Yeah, that's funny. So what, um, what— looking at it from— if you're, if you're talking to agents about the difficulties of it, what's the, what's the plus side? Like, how does an agent walk in and make like real money in the space quick? Like, I— because in, in my world, right, and I understand enough about yours and whatever, but in my world we were always like, that shit takes forever, this is quick.

Yeah, being, being ignorant.

You know what I mean?

But 100%, the quick— I mean, obviously getting in front of people is the challenge in any insurance line. Doesn't matter, right? You can be the best salesperson, best product knowledge guy, but if you can't get in front of people to present it, doesn't matter how good you are. So same thing in the Medicare space. Like, if you can get good at marketing and get good at getting in front of people— and there's plenty of ways to do it between Facebook, like we get most of our ads or leads off of Facebook, we do really well, we pull in about 300 leads a month just on simple Facebook ads. We built referral partnerships with group insurance companies that have retirees that they want to get off their plan. So, we'll do webinars for them and they'll just refer all their people to us. There's a bunch of ways to find out how to get in front of people if you're savvy and smart. And the key to making fast money in Medicare, other than just writing a bunch of insurance or a bunch of people, is being really good at cross-marketing. Like the agents that do really well in this business first year, they understand that my job is not to just go sell a single Medicare plan to every Medicare beneficiary. My job is to go get their core Medicare decision taken care of, but then also find out like, do you need a home healthcare plan? Do you need hospital indemnity? Do you need dental and vision? Do you need final expense? Like all of those, or annuities? Like there's a plethora of products that surround the 65-year-old space.. And so many agents get caught up like, oh, I just do Medicare and that's the only thing I do. Great. But all of your Medicare beneficiaries that you're taking care of that Medicare product with, there's a whole host of other solutions that they still need. And if you're not willing to present at least some segment of that, you're selling yourself short and you're going to have a lot of trouble making money first year. Like when I— and the business was way simpler when I was first in the field back in '06. There was only Medicare supplements and final expense. That was really the only viable products we had.. But the only way I made money first year was by cross-marketing final expense while my renewals were building up in the Medicare space. So, I led with Medicare. I would go write the Medicare supplement. And this is old school days where everything was still done on paper. So, I had to physically deliver the policy to them and everything. So, when I deliver the policy, then I would cross-sell final expense to them. And about 1 in 4 would always buy a final expense policy from me. Boom, there's another $500,000, $800,000 in my pocket. That's what helped me pay the bills and spend money in marketing to go find more Medicare people. And that was just a rinse and repeat process. The Medicare industry has got more complicated now. We have a lot more products, but that also creates a lot more opportunity. Yeah. So the agents that are savvy learn those secondary products and they get really good at selling them.

What's like for you or someone on the higher end elite What percentage of your business is straight the Medicare versus the cross-selling stuff, or what should it be in an ideal situation, say long term?

Yeah, I would say minimum 50-60% of your business should have a secondary app personally. Like, it's not that difficult. Like, and it probably higher. Like, I'm looking, I'm thinking about, uh, Grace's book because she's getting really good at selling 2 and 3 apps to every one of her clients. So I would say she's probably first year, she's probably running a 70 to 80% attachment rate right now on a secondary product.

Crazy.

Nope. And that basically doubles her first year commissions almost.

Yeah, you know, what's the easiest cross-sell in Medicare?

Uh, probably hospital indemnity, depending on if you're, if you're, if you're selling Medicare Advantage plans, which most people are now. Uh, hospital indemnity, it's, it's so easy to sell. Just the reason they just don't sell it. It's a product that pays cash benefits for time spent in the hospital. And all the Medicare Advantage plans have a pretty good hospital copayment built into them. So, some people are like, "I don't want to spend $350 a day when I'm in the hospital." So, they'll go get a cheap hospital indemnity plan for $35, $40, $50 a month, and then that'll pay them cash back for that time. So, super easy to sell and add on.

I like that stuff.

Concept. Yeah, 100%. Yeah, a lot of them are supplemental health insurance. If I'm selling Medicare supplements, then dental, vision, hearing, home health care, or final expense are my go-to secondary items.

Yeah, interesting. You know, it was always funny, and naturally when you're on one side— oh, I say naturally, I've only done really one thing, dude. I've done the simplified issue life side. I don't, I don't know what's on— at least on this side, they always were like You know, when people want to go do Medicare, our job was to not have them go do Medicare. Not really being ignorant, just like, no, stay here and do life, dummy.

But I used to—

absolutely—

this—

I, I used to always use this line, man, where people are like, yeah, I'm going over there because it's lifetime renewals. And I would always go, I got a question, whose lifetime? And the 24-year-old would go, well, theirs. And I'm like, Ain't they all going to be dead by the time you get old? And that's how I used to keep my agents. Yeah, but I know you have something on the other side.

Absolutely, absolutely. Your average, your average Medicare beneficiary should be with you for about 5 to 7 years. Yeah, you know, before the inevitable happens. Either they pass or you lose them for whatever reason, right?

So you're selling lifetime value of a client.

Yeah, absolutely. Which is generally speaking, like, our average lifetime value is probably about $1,500, $1,600.

Yeah. Which is, you know, it's not terrible, frankly, more than ours is on LifeSide when we— right, when we put our numbers in a bucket.

Yeah. And our acquisition cost is right, uh, depending on our campaign. I have some acquisition costs that are below $100. No shit. Um, but I would say our average cost per acquisition is probably about $150, $135 to $150.

So 10x return.

Yeah, absolutely. It's not hard. Yeah, if you're smart, easy game.

How smart do you got to be, dude?

We've hung out. You don't have to be that smart. You'd have to be confident. You have to be confident to introduce the second product because that's the problem. Like, so many, uh, of these agents in the Medicare space are lazy because they'll, they'll just do the Medicare piece and that's it. They're like, cool, I got a Medicare client, great, and they walk out with their, you know, $250 or $350 and that's it. And then the problem is twofold. One, they're not taking care of their client at the best of their ability. They're creating a situation where now the next agent with the new hot Medicare product is easily going to come in there and flip that person, right? Versus if you— and I was actually talking about this on my own podcast of learning how to bundle products in the Medicare space. If you can get someone to write 3, 4, 5 policies with you, They're not letting any other agent come in that door and screw with any of that, right? Even though some of those things are independent and can be changed independently without affecting the overall package too much, they're not going to let anybody come in the door, right?

Ties a lot into their day-to-day life though. I'm like, life insurance, like, we're, we're going like, all right, buy this, see you maybe never. Yeah, y'all got to talk to them a lot if you do. We do.

Job right, you have to have a lot higher touch point For example, after we get a new client onboarded, we're going to touch them about 6 times in the first 90 days. Wow. And just check in on them. We'll call them. We call them as soon as their policy is approved. We call them with the welcome call. We call them 15 days later to confirm they got their materials. We call them another 15 days later to see if they've even tried to use their plan yet and that they know how it operates. We call them another 30 days later. To check in on them. Hey, have you used your plan? Have you had any problems with it? Do you have any upcoming appointments we can help with? Oh, by the way, it doesn't look like you bought any hospital indemnity the first time. Let's try again. Then we call them another 30 days later with a similar conversation, and then we call them one more time at the end of that 30 days. So, we actually have a 120-day onboarding process that has about 6 touchpoints.

And then you have to hit them the next year anyway to keep—

And then we hit them the next year again, 100%.

Keep them on the plan.

100%. And then that, that is a process in and of itself. And the savvy person is going to do everything they can to reach out and touch those people and be like, hey, it is that time of year again where your phone's about to start blowing up from all these agents. Remember, you chose us for a reason the first time. We're still here for you. Chances are you don't need to make any changes. So we'd really appreciate it if you just shut the hell up. But if you've had any changes in your drugs, doctors, or health conditions, please give us a call to review your plan for next year. And then we prioritize who is top of the list that we recognize are going to have problems because of plan exits or changes in the marketplace in general. Be like, oh, all of these clients, we need to reach out and get them on the phone and tell them that they're up against a problem.

Got you.

Got you. So you got to be proactive about it a little bit. Right. So we like in our entire book will get an email from us, a text for those that are opted in on text. They'll get a physical letter from us in the mail and then they'll get a call from our VA team just to get them ready for open enrollment at the end of the year, which is—

you're knee deep in that now.

Knee deep.

Like, I feel like you ever been to the aquarium where they throw in like a bucket of fish food and all the fish go like, That's kind of what it feels like to me.

100%, dude. AEP is like that a lot. Uh, and like, you don't have to go far on some of these different message boards or social media areas to see people of all ages complaining about the inundation of marketing that they get during this time period.

What do the scumbags do this time of year? Because I know y'all have them too.

Oh, 100%. Um, a lot of them will misuse special election period codes to flip plans, right? And if they have— and there are platforms that can be abused without signatures, stuff like that. 100%. So, I mean, all of that stuff exists over here too. So, you have agents that'll find ways to flip your plan in all kinds of ways. And some of them are just the guy that he doesn't really care about the client's health situation. He just wants the money and he will find anything he can say that disparages their current plan or pitches a benefit. Like, like maybe they don't take time to review the doctors and the drugs and they're just like, hey man, your plan's cool, but I got this one over here that'll pay you back $180 for your Part B premium. Isn't that— wouldn't you like that? And they're like, oh yeah, let me do that. And then they move them and then the person finds out, oh, I'm in a plan that doesn't accept my doctors. Doesn't cover my drugs that I need covered. Right. And then that shit creates a complaint to Medicare, which then puts more bad eyes and regulation on us. Yeah. So that's one of the things up front on your end. 100%. So every time we put on a new client or even a current client that we change their plan during this time of year, our closing conversation is like, hey, Betty, Buckle up. Good news is we got the right— you and I chose this plan for these reasons. We got you in the right plan for you. Agreed?

Yes.

Cool. Bad news. I can't make all the other agents stop calling you. Your phone's still going to blow up. Your email's still going to get messages. But we chose this plan for a reason. So, and it's very much like Pete Fournier's conversation. If you give— another agent talks to you and they give you a quote that sounds better than what I did, bring it back to me and I'll explain to you why we didn't choose that plan the first time. And if we both overlook something, no worries, I'll enroll you in that plan myself. So we have that same conversation with them.

It's one of my favorite lines. It's funny.

I'll even call the agent with you on the phone and tell them why we didn't choose that plan.

Yeah. Crazy.

So yeah, same, same, same stuff. Yeah.

What up, insurance agents? If you're looking for a roadmap on how to win in this industry, check out the book I wrote about a year ago, Do More Now, Get Better Later. Check out the reviews here somewhere, my team's putting them on. I'm getting tons of great feedback about all the people it's helped. Appreciate those of y'all that have bought it, appreciate all the reviews that are going out. If you're new to following me or the industry, check out the book and get it in your hands now. How, um, I guess, what's the— if you were to give an agent direction on like, like, does start this time of year matter to start or not start? Like, I see a lot of people freaking the hell out about should I wait or should I not, or getting ready for— I was talking to people in the summer that were like, I'm getting ready for AEP. I'm like, In June? Like, meaning they haven't done anything, not getting ready, like we're reaching out to 600 clients from last year.

Yeah, like, no, it truthfully, like, prepping for AEP for the responsible agent, whether you're in the business established or not, technically does start in June. That's when all the new certifications start to come out, right?

That's what they do in the meantime though, to make money, like get people paid. Like, what's the path?

Depending on when they're starting is going to depend on some of their activities. So, if you had someone that was starting in, say, June, when there is no viable election period for all the people that are on Medicare, that doesn't mean they can't sell. They're just going to have to get a different angle. So, they're going to have to find people that are just now turning 65 and are new to Medicare, which is my favorite group of people to work with.

Because you do that anytime.

You could do that anytime.

Those are T65 leads. I know about them.

100%. There's 10,000 of them brand new every day trying to get into the Medicare system. So, there's no shortage of opportunity there. Alternatively, you can call people that are currently on Medicare and sell them secondary insurance all day. Maybe you're not trying to sell their core Medicare plan because they're not in a valid election period, but I can still call them and say, "Hey, how's that plan working for you? Cool. Have you heard about hospital indemnity and how that fits into your plan?" Do you have cancer coverage? Do you have a short-term care product for home healthcare when your shit really breaks down? Or do you just need some final expense to cap it all off? Like, you can still sell all those gamuts of products and stuff your pockets while you're getting ready for AEP. Um, I love launching agents during AEP because it's so easy to pick up business during AEP because it's a flood. So like any good agent that's a little bit of a hard worker, I can get them running as long as they're ready to sell by October 1st. 1, most of them, if they listen to me, they'll probably write 100 apps, make themselves $30,000 or more.

Okay.

Get a big fat check in January, and then they can take that, invest in the new marketing. That's exactly how we built Grace's business. We launched her, but she was preparing in May, getting— she was brand new, getting licensed, getting trained, getting certified. And then by the time we got to August 1st, we launched like an $8,000 piece mail campaign for her. It was the first start, uh, and then did a few other little things. And then boom, as those started to come in, they were all AEP leads. She went out and wrote just shy of 100 apps her first year, made about $40 grand. And then we immediately took almost all of that money and dumped it into Turning 65 Marketing.

Sick.

And then used OEP, the front end, to talk to all of her previous clients that she just wrote., and we sold them secondary products while we were waiting for that T65 marketing to ramp up. And then 6 months later, all the T65 marketing is pouring in, and then we just stayed on that train. So every month she's got 20 to 30 brand new people that are turning 65 years old that she's writing every month on top of everything else she's got going on. And that's what I try to do that with every agent that we bring into the group. If I can get them launched during AEP, that's perfect. But even like, especially this year, January through March, which is the open enrollment period, it's a little different. So AEP is for everybody that wants to make a plan change for January. January to March is the test drive. Let me test drive this new plan that I just enrolled in and see if it's any good. And if I don't like it, I can make one more change.

Stop it.

I didn't know that. That period is super busy too, because there's a bunch of people that either A, don't make any change during AEP when they should. They find out their plan is exiting. They find out their plan is losing their favorite doctors and network, but they don't do anything. And then they find out in January, like, oh shit, my plan is trash now. I should have done something and I didn't. And then you have all the people, all the shitty agents that enroll people in trash plans.

So you go—

so you still have turbulence from January to March. So I tell a lot of agents that are thinking right now, like, is it too late for me to get in? It's like, well, you'll probably miss most of AEP, but don't worry, because in January to March it's going to be as busy again. Yeah, we can still get you— again, it's dumbass season. You're going to fix all the problems that everybody created. Yeah. And y'all can still get you 100 apps and get you rolling, and then we'll switch to T65 marketing and cross-marketing in the middle of the year.

That actually seems like an absurdly easy spot to enter the space, given how many new people start at AEP because they think it's easier and they don't know what they're doing. So the, the smart people during that AP period are probably lining up calls for the first quarter to make sure.

That would be really easy to do. Absolutely.

Yeah.

Shit. So yeah, so we use that front end not only to cross-market our current book, right? So you can still set up and then still find people like, hey, we didn't catch you during AP. Well, I've been trying to get you on the phone. Your plan sucks next year. Like, we need to make some fixes. You know, but like, especially if you know—

so if they put them in something and you know the difference, you can literally be like, hey, did you know A, B, and C? No, I didn't. Hey, you can change it after January. Correct.

Correct.

I like talking to you. I learn new shit every time we talk.

So for example, like, if, if you're a savvy agent or agency and you're keeping— if you have a CRM, hell yeah, it's amazing all the agents that don't. And you have the right data, like we have platforms now that if I lose a client, like if I see my client sell off the books or I see a chargeback, I can take their Medicare number, their date of birth that I already have, punch it into a platform and see where they went. Yeah. Maybe like, oh, well, they had UnitedHealthcare plan, yada yada. And then they changed through some other agent to this plan.

You can literally see your chargebacks, right? I don't know if that—

yeah.

100%.

So I can look it up and see where they went. I'm like, oh, Gladys is not going to be happy with that plan. That that other agent got her into, right?

So you can probably just do searches, bro.

100%.

Just be like, hey, look up—

as long as you have the data, 100%. So then I can just call Gladys as long as I still have permission to contact on her, which I do, and be like, hey, I noticed, you know, UnitedHealthcare sent me a notice that you disenrolled. I was looking at the plan that you enrolled in. Did the agent point out this, this, and this and this? Oh no, he didn't say anything about that. Like, oh yeah, well, we need to fix that and get you back over here where you can still do this, this, and this that you told me are super important to you.

I wish we had that on the life side, dude. We could make a fortune just being like, hey, call all the companies that do X. Yeah, it's—

that's one of the things that, like, there's not a lot of super savvy operators in the Medicare space, and there are plenty. But there's not a lot that truly take the time to look at how the market is changing at the end of the year and then change their marketing to address those opportunities. Right. So, for example, if a new plan is expanding in a market, but it's brand new, like you should be running ads or marketing in that area for that new plan to tell everybody about it.

Yeah.

Or if you find out that ABC Plan is exiting this marketplace, Well, it's not hard to find out all the people that are probably on that plan. True. And just create some marketing messaging to them. And then you can go into that county and be like, hey, y'all are losing access to your Blue Cross plan. Here's all the options I can show you that'll replace that and give you what you need. So it just— I can see— you got to be savvy with your target marketing on some of that stuff.

I can also see too, like, and no offense towards this, I can see where this is really easy to make money long term relative to the average person who gets in the space. 100%, because they ain't doing all that shit.

No, they're not. They're getting— they're buying third-party leads, you know, or the government-looking mailers, BRC mailers, and then they're just writing the Medicare plan and walking away. Because you already know this, like I'm preaching to the choir, most agents are just lazy. There's only a small top percentage of us that are going to cross-market, that are going to create the touch points, that are going to look at how to market in, in smart initiatives to create better ROI.

This is really relative. It's not— it's a lot of work, but it's not complicated to set up, and it's fun.

Like, that's the part of the business I really like, is looking at the challenges in the marketplace and be like, how can I change my marketing to address the market challenges in a way that nobody else is looking at so that I can easily reap more business?

So sick.

Which is another reason why we cheat and we do everything in Spanish because nobody's doing— it's funny to me because there's a ton of bilingual agents out there in the Medicare space.

Yeah.

But they all do the same thing. They all market in English with the callout that says, oh, by the way, we speak Spanish.

Really? They don't go direct for it.

Really? Very— almost none.

Y'all are all in on it though.

All in. We flip the script. We market directly in Spanish and we put the little callout that says, oh yeah, we also speak English. We just flipped it. So wait, I have actually sent mailers out that are like that. I think I may have one here. That's awesome. I've sent mailers out that are just like that. Like the billboard that's all in Spanish, but then— no, I'm not fluent. I can't sell in Spanish. I can't speak enough. Yeah. I can't speak enough insurance language in Spanish, but that's why I got these guys. They can handle that. I'll take care of some of the the crackers that roll in every once in a while that need some help in English because we do get them. So I take care of those that fall in my lap every once in a while or some of the referrals that come in. But other than that, man, we just— otherwise we go straight to them.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You're running the operation. Wifey's doing the boots on the ground stuff.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we have her and a few LO agents that handle all the in-house stuff. Got about another 150 agents external that are doing their thing. How many total? You said about 100? I got about 150 external agents running around doing stuff.

Yeah, you know, good for you. Life is a lot better than it was. I won't say that's the wrong word. You were nervous making a big move a couple years ago.

Yeah, I remember we were, we were on the road show.

Yeah.

And I had mentioned to you that I was looking at exiting, uh, the wholesale space and going back out and starting my own deal again. And then I finally was like, yeah, everything's come together. So I presented, I gave them my business plan and I gave them a 3-option exit strategy for what life looks like after I leave.

Oh, shit.

Kind of a business continuity plan for them. I'm like, here's some options on how you can approach my exit to keep you whole. They appreciated that, loved it. They picked the one in the middle like everybody does, and boom, I get my equity and they get to keep agents and keep doing their thing and I get to run my own deal.

Hey, the newbies will get that joke one day.

Yeah, give them 3 options, they're always going to pick the one in the middle. Works every time. Jesse Park wrote a whole book about it.

Yeah, that's true, that's true. That's good shit, dude. Crazy.

I'm sorry. It's been good. Like, they've been great partners with me. I've— we're doing fine. Like, it's, it's, it's been— I mean, there's been a lot of learning curve of things that that I've never had to deal with, right? Yeah. Like, I've never hired employees before in my life. I've managed employees that someone else did the hiring for, but I never had to deal with the Texas Workforce Commission and payroll systems and learning some of that and how to outsource that to the right people and deal with it. And like, what are all these stupid employment reports I gotta file and when are they due? And just like, some of those things, uh, have all been very new learning curves for me. But once you get some of those systems in place, then it's just learning how to automate it. And here, you handle that now. Now that it's running, you keep that on the guidelines and I'll go back over here and drive business.

So I always try to tell these newbies, man, that are nervous because they don't know what's coming or what's next or what to do, how to do A, B, and C. I'm like, you know, how the hell you think we feel? Yeah, I don't know shit that's coming up. No, that don't go away.

No, that never stops when you're especially— yeah, when you're in this business, especially I would say true in the Medicare space because it does change every year, whether it be just the costs that are built into it or the regulations and how plans treat you or whatever. Like, at any point, always be ready to pivot. Like, I'm building out a second arm of our business right now for life and annuity space to get that set up and as a secondary arm. Opportunity, secondary income stream in case the Medicare industry does go to shit in the next couple of years and it's not viable. I'm like, no problem, just pivot over here for a while and be ready to go.

Especially that annuity space, y'all. I never hear Medicare people talk about annuities, and that seems really stupid because I'd agree 100%.

But it also depends on which segment of the Medicare marketplace that you're serving. But when I was When I was a wholesaler, that was one of the things I would teach agents all the time. I'm like, who are the people that you're looking to serve? Like, oh, I want to serve upper middle income folks. I'm like, great, so you want to learn to get really good at selling Medicare supplements, and you want to learn to sell advanced market life and annuities as your secondary lane. Yeah. Versus the other guy's like, oh no, I work with the low-income people in Medicare. I'm like, cool, so you're going to get really good at selling Medicare Advantage plans and some Medicare supplements, and then you're going to go sell them for Final expense and cancer. Okay, cool.

Yeah, makes sense.

But yeah, there's, there's not a lot of agents in the Medicare space that are going after annuities, but there are some, and they are savvy.

They're killing it. Yeah, I mean, for us, we just teach them to freaking ask. Even because, even because they always told us, dude, everyone in my world, everyone was like, y'all sell final expense, there's no money, they never have money.

Like, shit. But yeah, bullshit.

You ask 30 of them a week, bro, you'll find a handful that got some money. 100%.

Crazy, dude. We talk to people that are on Medicaid. Yeah. And we still squeeze in a final expense policy for them. Not a super duper high-end one, but, you know, whatever they can afford. They're like, yeah, I just need $6,000, $7,000 so I can be cremated. Make it easy on me. No problem, we can get you fixed up with that for, you know, $20, $30. Yeah, still making a few hundred bucks commission. Yeah, right. And this is getting more value with my client, taking better care of them. And I think that's one of the things that I feel like agents— I think that's the problem in the perspective. I think there's too many agents that feel like, well, if I keep selling them more and more product, at what point am I just taking advantage of them? Well, if you're doing it with the idea of taking advantage of them, then yeah, you're an asshole. But if you're understanding that your job as an agent is to mitigate as much risk as you can for your client to put them in a safety-protected situation, then yes, you should be selling them secondary products at the right level, right? Just like a P&C agent, a good P&C agent, when they go through your auto policy, they make sure you have all the right bodily injury limits and all that stuff, right? That so that if you run over a school bus or something, you're still in okay, like they're not going to take your house from you kind of thing. So same thing in the Medicare world, like you have to understand, like they need— they don't just need their Medicare policy, they probably need a little bit of life insurance, they probably need a little bit of home health care or something else. So your job as an agent is to mitigate risk.

Yeah, it's true. I— hey, I went and bought— I had to get some, uh, some different homeowners and all kinds of shit this year, you know. Um, we got— I got a lot of moving parts and things get complicated. So I go to a guy and I'm like, hey, help, can I— can you shop my shit around?

Yeah.

And I'm used to P&C over the years like everybody else. You shop it around, they're like, yeah, I found one 7 cents cheaper.

Here's—

here's this year's premium, blah blah. Well, this year, dude, my— I pay triple now what I paid last year because homeboy was really smart and he pointed out all the shit I didn't have covered in my life and then told me all the things that would go wrong if I chose to keep the coverage I have now versus what I could have. You know what I mean? I was like, yep, no one's ever said that to me before. Yeah, holy shit. And now I pay 3x what I was paying last year, but the coverage is like unbelievably different for every circumstance.

Yeah, now you can go out and break shit and feel good about it.

Oh yeah, I can blow it up, burn it, I do it right, it's all covered.

Absolutely. Yeah, man, um, it's funny. Yeah, it's just a perspective change for the agent. Like, they have to truly understand, like, it's not a matter of you just trying to sell product for product's sake, for commission's sake. It's learning how to take good care of your client, um, and your client a lot of times in Brian Askins talks about this, is like, you have to let your client know of everything that you sell, because if you don't, they're going to go find someone else when they need it. Uh, and that's kind of what another reason why we have that high-touchpoint onboarding process for new clients. Through those 120 days, every 30 days, we're going to bring up a new product that we offer. So we go through the entire gamut of our portfolio in 120 days for a new client after they get their Medicare core product, then we're going to talk about the second one. Whether they buy it or not doesn't matter. 30 days later, we're going to ask them about the third one. Whether they buy it or not doesn't matter. 30 days later, we're going to talk about the fourth product we offer. And so we walk them through— in 120 days, they get to see, or they at least get told about everything that we offer and present to them. And again, it's not a hard— it's not a hard, aggressive thing. It's just like, hey, wanted to let you know we also do this, and based on your current coverage, here's some gaps that you have that this could solve for you. And if they like it, great. If they don't, great.

If you're an insurance agent and you feel like you're stuck, you've hit a wall, you're trying to figure out sales strategies, the scripts to use, how to get like off the ground and get to that top of the leaderboard type status, I have a course that I've put out, super affordable. I'm getting a ton of great feedback from from people every day on the strategies they've learned and been able to implement, from goal setting to sales techniques to calendar scheduling, everything you would need to get your business off the ground and get running quickly. jwcourse.com, click the link below and get in there today. Where's the balance? I don't know if balance is the right word, but it's like going really deep and getting really good at one thing versus kind of being the— kind of knowing a little bit.

How do you—

how do you— like, because I've always been like, eff it, I don't do none of that shit, just do this one. But I can see the negative of it too.

Sure.

You know, I see both sides, but I've never really pitched it from your side of like Pete Fournier, all things you guys— yeah, you know what I mean? Bryan Askins do all these things.

I—

the more I hear about it, the more I like it.

But I also go like, I like it too, but like at some point Or if you're brand new, like, definitely don't try to take that approach.

Yeah.

Like, don't be like, I'm going to sell P&C and annuities and life insurance and Medicare, trucking insurance. Like, settle down. You've written 3 apps so far. Like, just slow down for a second, right? And stop getting— and because if you're in— once you become an insurance agent, you're going to start getting marketed to by all the wholesalers and recruiters with all the shiny objects. You have to learn how to ignore those. And at least for a period of time, keep your head down in your lane, whether it's life insurance, Medicare, final, whatever you might be doing. But the key is understanding that the product that you're selling doesn't necessarily determine the other opportunities that you sell as much as the market that you're selling to. So, again, for example, I'm in one lane, I'm in the Medicare lane. I'm not in the P&C or all these other lanes, but there is a gamut of products that I can sell to that one market. So, I'm still working one market. I'm still kind of long obedience in one direction, but I have a gamut of products that that market serves or that serve that market. So, then, it's just learning. I'm already talking to the same people. I've already got a relationship. It's the same conversations all the time. I'm talking to Fred, the 74-year-old. Or Barbara, the 90-year-old, whatever it might be. I'm talking to the same type of group, but I have all these different solutions that I can offer that group of people.

Makes sense.

Yeah. If I were talking to business owners, then I'm going to— if that was my thing, my marketplace is small business owners, then I'm going to learn as I get really good at my first product, then I'm going to start learning what are the secondary products that that same group of people need, not what's a secondary product of this other market. Market. No, I want to stay in the same market. Yeah, but what are the other products I can still offer that same group of people? That's the way I look at it.

How have you seen— this is a curious question because I've seen over the years where Medicare people come to me and be like, hey, I want to add life, and they generally don't work out for us. You know, I mean, they just, they want to do their thing, and this is like— and especially on our end, we're like, this is what we do. How's the reverse? Like, when life guys go to you, they're like, I sell a shitload of life, I just want to Dick around with Medicare.

Same bullshit, especially when they learn how much harder it is to get in the Medicare space from an onboarding and licensing thing. Like, I can't tell you over the years how many guys that I've talked to that were killing it in life insurance or killing it in P&C. Yeah. And they're like, well, I'm gonna do Medicare now. I'm gonna kill it in Medicaid.

Yeah.

And they're like, let's go, send me the contracts, let's go. And I'm like, bro, you don't even know that it's still going to take you 6 weeks just to get ready to sell. You haven't even— I haven't even had time to tell you that there's a certification you got to go by and do that's going to take you 5 to 6 hours on a Saturday. Oh, and that you're going to have to do training and certifications with every single Medicare product that you pick up. Like, you haven't even gotten to understand that trench work that you have to go through just so you can properly and compliantly pitch a product.

You have to know your shit over there.

You have to know your shit.

I'm sorry. You can sell life insurance and be dumb as a box of rocks.

For the most part, yeah. Yeah, true. You know, now when I talk to really good Medicare agents that want to sell life insurance, I feel like that's super easy. I'm like, perfect. Let's just learn to sell life insurance to the people you already have a relationship with. What do they need? They probably just need some final expense. Keep it simple. Yeah, right. And I can teach you how to sell final expense to a Medicare person all day. It's that you already know how to do it. You just never done it before. You're already asking those same questions. On a simplified issue Medicare supplement app. They're almost identical for the most part. So if you know how to ask those questions, you know how to ask these questions on this app. It's the same process, bro. Just a different product.

The reality is they should already know that they're eligible by the time they go to Medicare.

Correct. Yes. Because the data that you have to collect in Medicare, if you're doing it right, you're probably getting their prescriptions. You've probably gone through some level of underwriting on something. And just from their scripts, like, you can look up and go, oh, bang. This person gets preferred, this person gets standard, and then you can immediately go into the conversation educated with the right, with an accurate quote right up front and pitch something. But again, it's just, it's just asking. Like, you know this, like cross-marketing is not, they overcomplicate cross-marketing. For sure. Just shut up. Just ask them, hey, do you need any dental insurance?

Yeah.

No, I don't. All right, cool. How about vision? Do you wear glasses? Yeah, I do. Oh, cool. I got a great vision product. It's $16. Let me get you signed up. Yeah, it just, you know, and pointing out the problems and some of the slight negatives. Like, this is why I always tell people that selling hospital indemnity with Medicare Advantage is so easy, because every Medicare Advantage plan has a giant gap in the hospital coinsurance. So, all you have to do after you go through the plan is point that out again and be like, hey, just real quick, Barbara, when— not if— when you're hospitalized, is coming out of pocket for that $1,500 going to be problematic for you? Yeah, it is. Cool. Let me show you a way I can get that covered for about $30 a month. Boom. There you go. Sold. Another $300 in my pocket first year. Let's go. Like, it's just, it's not that hard. Just agents are lazy, man. We all know that.

That is—

sorry, didn't— I mean, I don't know if that's a revelation for all y'all watching this, that most of y'all are lazy, but it's true. But that's human nature. I'm not trying to hit on anybody out there.

Yeah.

And if you are watching this podcast, you're probably not that lazy.

That's— or, hey, or they know they are and they're just trying to actually fucking do something. Because, hey, I can always say, dude, when I was being lazy, I knew it 100%. Like, deep down, I knew I wasn't doing what it took. Yeah, I just came up with all the reasons to validate to myself why it was okay.

Yeah.

And so I like calling people out because I wish someone did for me. Actually, someone did for me is what changed it, to be real. Nice. I wish someone did it sooner. And I'm sure— I wish I, I wish I listened sooner because I'm sure they were telling me.

Yeah, people were screaming from the top of the stands for a long time. It's like, 100%, wasn't listening.

Yeah, yeah. So 20, 20-something years in this journey, dude, what's, what's the hardest part? What's, what's— yeah, I want to know that.

The hardest part.

What's hard for you, man?

What's hard for me now is definitely not what was hard for me when I was new. You know, what's hard for me now is keeping— is keeping agents excited about the opportunity, I guess. Yeah. You know, it's finding the right agents to work with me. Like, that's been one of my challenges in our new deal has been getting the right agents in place to run with the opportunity. Um, we— I've done well on the external side. It's not hard to recruit people on the external side. That's what I did for 13 years as a wholesaler. So a lot of that is just finding agents that know what they're doing already and they just need another widget to plug into their program. I'm good at that. I'm like, hey, well, you don't have this to plug in. I can teach you how to use it to make more money. Boom, let me get you contracted. But finding a new agent that's brand new and wants to do everything, making sure that I'm finding the right person, because we've gone through recruits in our LOA model. I just need to vet them better up front. Like, my very first one, great guy, awesome dude, invested about $15,000 into him over a period of 6 months and then taught him how to run seminars. Like, I traveled to Houston, got him running. He was an ex-coach and teacher, so he already knew how to stand up in front of a group and teach educationally. So, I'm like, "Perfect. You're in a massive market in Houston. I'm going to come. I'm going to do all the marketing for you. We're going to fill up a room full of of seniors. I'm going to teach you how to run the seminar, and then we're going to get a pack of leads at the end of that seminar. So instead of talking to one person at a time, we're going to talk to 30, 40, or 50 people at a time. And at the end of that seminar, you're going to have a stack of leads, and they're all going to want your help. And all you got to do is call them, schedule the appointment, or just close the deal. So we run our first seminar. Sure enough, we did a single-day event, but we did two seminars. We did one in English, one in Spanish. I did the English one, he did the Spanish one, and he did a great job. He did a great job, and I was super impressed. I'm like, this guy's gonna kill it. His presentation skills are awesome. His ability to stand up in front of a group and teach is awesome. Motherfucker won't pick up the phone. Pardon my language. So after we do the seminar and we get that stack of leads of everybody that filled out permission to contact and intake forms and need our help, I go back, I come back down to Houston 2 days later. We go to his home office. I grabbed the stack of leads. I'm like, all right. And I called the first one and I write 2 apps that I gave to him. We called the next one and he writes 2 apps with me helping him. We're already 4 apps deep. We've only made 2 calls. We've already made about a G note. And he's like, cool, I got this. I'm like, cool. I'm going to go back to Austin. See you later. Let me know how it goes. Let me know if you have problems, dude. Never picked up the phone again for 2 weeks and had the gall to lie to me about it. I'm like, dude, you know you're on my phone system, right? Like, I know exactly how many calls you make. You've made none. So 4 months later, after that seminar, he finally blows the business because he doesn't have any leads. Or not that he doesn't have leads, he doesn't have the ability to call the leads. I take all those old leads, give them to Grace, and she goes and writes the shit out of all of them. No problem at all.

Tell me you kept track of how much she wrote.

I'd have to go back and look, but yeah, it's in my database from where it came from.

I want to know.

She probably made— if I had to guess, she probably made about $15,000 in first-year comp, just kind of going by memory. So we had— it was about 54 leads out of that first seminar that I did. Yeah, she just went in there and cleaned it up, and it was all brand new to Medicare, so we get the new to Medicare bonus. Writing secondary products as well. So she probably made about $15 grand out of that little batch. Yeah. So he blows. The second one I pick up is a business owner, runs a Luxury Paws business, mobile vans that go around and trim and clean up everybody's high-end luxury dogs. Yeah. But she's got that business up and running to the point that she doesn't need to be involved.

Got it.

Right. So she's like, I want to find another stream. She knows Grace, saw how good Grace was doing. She's like, I want in. I spent 8 weeks training her, getting her up and running, getting her ready to sell. We bring her in, we put her on the phone. She makes probably 8 phone calls, gets up, walks out of the office, never to be seen again. Like, all right, next. Who's next? So then I hired 2 young ones. Great. I put them— I treated them a little different. I put them as a W-2, gave them a salary and everything. First one does really well, makes a pretty good chunk of change in his first day. He's a young dude. He's made more money. He even told me, he's like, dude, I'm making more money than I've ever made in my life. Thank you. I'm like, yeah, that's what I'm here for. Like, I'm trying to help you create that. And then he got lazy. He's like, well, now that I'm making this money, I don't need to hunt leads or work. And he just started sitting in his chair, waiting for the phone to ring and he closed that business. I'm like, dude, no, no, no. And I didn't know how bad it was until Grace came to me one day. She's like, you know, your boy over there is not working the leads. I'm like, what do you mean he's not working the leads? She's like, he's not. I'm like, he just made 2 sales today. She's like, those are just people that are calling inbound. She's like, he's not working all the leads. I'm like, well, I need some verification of that. And then she pulled 66 instances of people begging him to call them and work with them, and he's just ignoring them completely. Gave her all those leads. She went and called them and made money. So I reprimanded him, and then shortly after, he just kept his behavior up, so I had to fire him.. And then the other one decided she didn't want to work either. She was a stone cold killer if she was in the office, but she missed 12 days in 5 months. And I had a conversation. I'm like, dude, you can't. I was like, if you're, if you're trying to hit the goals that you told me, like you told me, you set them, you set your own goals that you want to be able to write 20 apps a month and have the freedom to work from home sometimes and all of those things. I'm like, no problem. I was like, but you've only been here, you know, 6 months. You've missed 12 days already. You're short-sighting yourself. And I just asked her, I'm like, hey, you know, if you're, if you're real and you want what you told me you want, like you can miss 12 days in a, but it, it, you're gonna be 2 years away from that for these next 2 years. Like you need to buckle down to get yourself to a space like that where you can screw off on Fridays often if you want to. I was like, but like for the next 90 days, like I kind of need you to put down, buckle down and put in some effort as we get ready for the next AEP because I need you, I need you to learn. You're shortening your learning curve and your skills by missing all these days. And then she came back and quit. She's like, well, I can't work with anybody that expects me to work that hard. Expect you to work 5 days a week?

You mean expect you to do what you said you wanted? You mean that thing?

Yeah. Expect that. So she blew. But. But now we've got some new agents that are a little more motivated, a little more grounded, and yeah, they're running hard. We're writing more business this year than we've ever written. We're killing it. We've had about— like, our internal team production growth is up about 50% over last year. Our external team production is up about 75% over last year. Good for you, dude. So not complaining at all.

How long— when was the move? Was it two— is it two years yet?

20, uh, 2023 was when I split. January 2023. Oh yeah, just over 2 years, almost 3 years. Dang, it's almost 3 years.

Time flies.

It does.

We're getting old, bro.

Speak for yourself.

We're getting old.

I had to, I had to remind some people recently that I was doing a talk up in Dallas on Medicare, obviously, and I had to remind the audience. I'm like, hey, I've already heard some misconceptions. I want to clear them up real quick. I am in the Medicare space. I'm not on Medicare. So, I want to be real clear. I've been in the business 20 years. My beard is white, but I'm only 50 years old. My beard just qualified for Medicare before I did. Oh, shit. Been in this business 21 years. I started talking to 65-year-olds when I was 29. They were real sweet when I first got in the business. They would call me son. They'd bake me cookies. Now that I look like this, they call me handsome and send me nudes. So stupid. I delete them, but Medicare says I have to keep all electronic communication for 10 years. I, it wasn't that.

I was wondering when the real Tony was gonna come out, cuz if you, if we hang out for more than 30 minutes, dude, we're in tears laughing. At least I know I am. Around—

and from what you say, it was fine. I mean, I don't really mind getting those types of messages. It was weird when I moved to Austin and all the guys started doing it too, though. That was— that got strange.

Anyway, oh, you, you and Joe, huh? That's how y'all met?

Good. Yeah, 100%.

No, good to know. He swiped right on Joe.

Oh man, I do. I like this business, man. I like to have fun with it.

Same, brother. Same. Well, I'm glad we've got to meet and become friends over the last few years. End with whatever the hell Tony wants to end with, bro. If I forgot to ask something important because I don't prep, or just something you want to share with people, dude.

Yeah, I got a book coming out pretty soon. We're about to go to publishing on it, um, finishing up the last proof and edits. Uh, it'll be, uh, you've heard me talk about this, the 8 relationships that every agent needs to embrace as they develop, right? So it goes through the prerequisite relationships just to even become an agent, and then the transfer of where you go from just being a sales agent to a business owner, and then the different types of relationship categories you need to start investing in. So it's kind of a career development book on that. Uh, I'm hoping to have it launched before Christmas. Okay, that's what we're pushing for. So I'm working on cover art, I'm finishing my proof, uh, I've got a couple of people lined up to write the foreword for me, and then Hopefully we'll have it done, ready to launch for Christmas.

I remember it all too well, bro.

Absolutely.

Yeah, yeah, time.

You got time.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's good shit. You got events coming up soon? You mentioned you have them. I know you'll have anything planned.

Nothing major.

I'm going to y'all's event you host, the one you—

yeah, no, no, no, nothing. We're sitting on that for right now. Um, we were targeting March. We wanted to change it up a little bit. We were going to go to Fort Lauderdale in March. Um, But we've had a couple of issues. One, our primary sponsor that backs us up no longer is in the industry. And the venue owner that we were going to host it at died. Damn. So we're like, all right, now we got to look for some other avenues and figure this thing out. So we, we put it on back on the planning committee. We might have it up and running again next year, but we'll see how things shake down.

Curveballs never stop in this space. Never stop, man.

Sure.

I don't know for sure.

Absolutely. But hey, as you know, your success is directly related or indirectly related— that's directly related to the size and frequency of problems you solve.

It's true. So it's true.

It's trying to learn how to solve bigger problems every day.

My man, it's good shit. Well, keep, keep killing it, dude. Uh, they can— I know they can find you on Instagram. We'll share all that stuff.

I'm all over the place. I'm the only Tony Merwin that's reputable on social media. There's a couple other losers out there trying to use my name, but just search Tony Merwin, you'll find me. If I can help, hit me up on Facebook, Instagram. I'm easy to find. LinkedIn. I'm all over the place.

My dude, I appreciate your time today, brother.

Thanks for sharing, man. It's good to see you.

Yeah, same here, dude. Let's catch up soon.

Soon.

Take it easy, man. Later, bro. Bye, guys. If you've enjoyed the podcast or any of the previous episodes, if you're on Spotify or any of the other Apple Podcast platforms. Would love if you'd go in and leave a review for us. If you're, if you're watching on YouTube, comment, like, subscribe, share, do all the things. We'd greatly appreciate it. Helps get the word out to everybody. Appreciate you, and we'll see you on the next one.