Dr. Rajbhandari: The Brain-Body Connection and Online Yoga

All right, so we'll get started. Thank you everyone for being here. This is really meant to be for fun and just a fun discussion to celebrate International Day of Yoga. For those who don't know us, Abha and I are 2 young, cool people who are really interested in the brain and in yoga. Abha, do you wanna start by introducing yourself? Sure.

Yeah, my name is Abha Rajapandari. I am A neuroscientist by profession, and I have my own research lab at Mount Sinai Hospital in New York. My lab focuses on understanding the interactions between the brain and the body, specifically in relationship to stress and fear-related aspects. And yeah, I started my lab like 3 years ago here and moved to New York. And I think Jonathan was one of the first person I met when I moved here. And obviously we had so many commonalities and we like— Still remember we sat on our rock on Central Park and we're like talking about yoga nonstop, but we've had quite a few collaborations and stuff like that. But Jonathan, you wanna go ahead?

Yeah, I still remember sitting on the rock and talking about neuroscience and yoga for like 2 hours. So I'm Jonathan. I'm a neurologist in New York City. I'm at NYU right now, but I'm gonna be jumping ship and going to Cornell. So by profession, I mainly see patients with brain disorders, seizures, strokes, multiple sclerosis, Parkinson's, things like that. But I Have a very niche side interest in how yoga affects the brain. And it's one of the areas that I try to study and read about and bring people together on. So Abha has been to so many of these and she's such a great source of knowledge. So I'm really excited for us to have a little bit of discussion and for all of you to be able to join in. So just for an overview of the structure, we have a few very loose talking points to go through and we'll just have fun going back and forth. And then we'll open up the mic in about 20 minutes. 20 minutes or so, just so everyone can ask their own questions. Abha, why don't we start with just talking about how the brain and the body interact with each other? What are the pathways of connection between the brain and the body, and how might that relate to yoga?

Yeah, good. Should I start? Yeah.

Yeah.

Oh, okay. Yeah. So the brain and body obviously are intricately connected with each other. And interestingly though, brain and bodily organs have usually been studied like separately, like neuroscience is its own field and everything is so brain-centric and focused. And then all the research on like organs like heart, gut have been separate. But importantly, the cranial nerve called the vagus nerve, which runs from the brainstem and pretty much like it innervates almost all of the organs in the body, sends information from the brain into those bodily organs. But interestingly, because vagus nerve, you know, sometimes there's a misconception, it's not one nerve, it's a bundle of nerve, and it's not only taking information from the brain to the body, but it's actually also carrying a bunch of the nerves in that bundle are also carrying information from the body, the organs back to the brain, which is integrated. The information coming from their organs like the heart, the gut are all integrated in the brainstem structures. And then sent to the forebrain structures for regulation, many different, like all the functions, behavioral functions like fear, anxiety, or daily behaviors. But interestingly, the vagus nerve actually carries more information from the body to the brain, almost like 85% information. So that means a lot of the sensory information is going from the bodily organs back to the brain. But that research hasn't, I guess, been explored as much, although it's like now taking off because everything has been very top-down, like brain controlling the body. And obviously that is the case, but then brain obviously doesn't work in isolation from the body, right? So it's always receiving information from these organs. Yeah. I don't know if you wanna expand more on that.

Yeah, there are some really interesting examples of this in medicine. So there's a group of brain disorders that are really sensitive to body changes. And the 2 that come to mind the most for me are seizures. So like epilepsy and migraine. So very like for migraine, it's so many different things and it's very individualized. Different triggers cause migraines in people. So for some people, if they eat cured meat with nitrites in it, they will get a migraine. Just like the chemoreceptors in the vagus nerve carry that information up and they get a migraine done. For some people, Temperature changes or factory changes is a really big one. Yeah. So there are so many of these triggers that get transmitted into the brain and then result in the inflammatory cascade and vasodilation and pain of migraine. But then if you take a vagal nerve stimulator, even just outside the skin, like you put it on someone's neck and you deliver shocks to the vagus nerve, you actually can abort a migraine and you can also prevent migraine. With those. So obviously there's a really important connection happening between the brain and the body through this nerve. And it's the same thing in epilepsy. So for generalized epilepsy syndromes that are refractory to medication, it's level A evidence and standard of care to implant a vagal nerve stimulator to reduce seizure frequency. Do we know exactly how that works? No.

Right.

It's so interesting, right?

But it's—

Yeah.

So much research and it's an FDA-approved therapy for treatment-resistant depression. Now it's being considered for PTSD and epilepsy. Obviously. Is it FDA approved for epilepsy?

Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

Oh, okay. Yeah. So interesting. But the biological mechanism through which vagus stimulation actually alters these functions is kind of a mystery, right? My research is related to the neuropeptides, cuz you know, a lot of the aspects of vagal functions are regulated by neuropeptides or peptides that are found in the body or in the blood. And then they modulate the functions because it has either receptors or expresses those neuropeptides, which in turn then modulate the function of the brain. But how exactly they work, very little is known. Actually, one of the researchers in terms of basic science research working on it, there are a couple of them, Ivan Arujo, Stephen Liberles at Harvard. And interestingly for breathing, they've shown that there are 2 genetic type of neuropeptide receptors that are expressed in the vagus nerve. And one is related to hypoxia, right? Like breathing specific related to that, or basically related to either rhythmicity of breathing or when there is lack of oxygen, like what happens. So it's so interesting how there are these specific type of peptides that regulate specific functions. So it's not just, we can't generally say vagus nerve stimulation has this effect because Obviously there are all of these peptides and neuromodulators that are working in complementary fashion to each other to regulate these functions. And I think that's just starting to be teased apart now.

Yeah. And what do we know about yoga's effects on vagal activity and maybe even these neuropeptides, if we know anything about it?

I think very like in a far-fetched sort of way, I think it's usually been correlational kind of studies, right? It's been like, because breathing has effects on the vagus and that's probably there. I get some studies looking at effects on aspects of anxiety and stress, but again, it's again correlational studies, right? It's not like directly showing that this is causing changes in the vagus. So I think we have to be careful because in a lot of times in the yoga world, obviously we talk, there tends to be a lot of talk about the parasympathetic nervous system and Vagus nerve and all of that. But at the same time, when you really look at the science, it's, it's not very clear.

Would you agree that? Yeah, it's so hard because in, in a human, you're not gonna be able to do the slide-based studies that you need to look at specific transmitters. Like you're not gonna be able to do histology, like slice up the tissue and stain it and look to see what neurotransmitters are mediating what you're Studying because you don't wanna harm a human being. Obviously you don't wanna harm any animal. And you know, a lot of the, a lot of the studies come out of other animals where we know about these neuropeptides. So yeah, how do you think we can ever improve our level of understanding of the different components of the vagus nerve and apply that knowledge to humans? Like, is there a way to do that or do we just need like radically different technology?

Yeah, I think, I guess most, another aspect is the heart rate variability, right? That's another thing that's then again correlated with changes in parasympathetic, like vagal functions. That sort of is one of the direct ways of measuring. But other than that, most of the measurements like blood pressure or measuring heart rate, other things, again, those are again indirect way of showing that there are vagal activation. So. I don't know, from the blood. Also, it wouldn't necessarily show that it's changing vagus function. I feel like maybe something that actually, again, most of those have to be in animal studies, but measuring actual activity in the vagus nerve while someone is doing these breathing practices or something might be better. But that's again, very, it would be very tough to do in humans.

A few things I can think of that would be interesting, and I don't know if these have been done, but there are patients who have vagotomies, which just means you cut their vagus nerve. And usually that's to treat like a few different disorders. And I would be interested to know, do they have the same benefits from yoga or are the benefits blunted? And what that would imply is if they don't have the same benefits, would that mean that the vagus nerve is necessary? Like the communication between the brain and the body is necessary for yoga to have the beneficial effects it does. I think that would be really interesting to know. I'm going to Google quickly. But yeah. And then is there like, Within heart rate variability, my understanding is it's very hard to distinguish most of the components of the vagal nerve that way. There are some fancy math applications that try to do that, but it's not very well established.

That's true.

Yeah.

And I think this could lead into something else though, because yoga is a full practice, right? So it's a, it's not just a. physical or breathing, but also like mental, right? With meditation. And so it has that top-down control also. So we cannot ignore the fact that obviously not everything is happening from the body to the brain, but also the fact about neuroplasticity that's occurring in the brain regions themselves, which in turn are then modulating the functions of the body. It's a whole all-encompassing sort of practice. That is why it has benefits at multiple levels. And also, I guess Eddie Stern says this too. I've heard him say that because it's so interesting how someone who has like pain, someone who has some kind of anxiety disorder or some other condition, they all come to a yoga practice and everyone gets some benefits, right? Like whatever they're suffering from, at least in some level.

Yeah.

And so that's why it's interesting because in that sense, it has an effect on multiple components.

Right. And so independently, it seems to have effects on mood, on sleep, on attention, and that's independent of many of the kind of body-mediated effects, which is really interesting. Just as an update, I could find no papers looking at patients who've had vagotomies who practice yoga.

Right. That, I mean, those would be very small samples to do it probably.

Right. Right. You'd have to recruit very, you know, finding enough people you need to cast a wide net. But yeah, I've also always wanted to see a study where, you know, how much of the cognitive improvements from yoga are due to sleep, I think is a really interesting question because we know that from a few studies that yoga really improves sleep, almost making it look like someone slept like 10 to 20 years younger. Like it really improves the amount of deep sleep and REM sleep that people spend in, reduces the time to fall asleep and the actual amount of times spent asleep. So you could say like it improves the quality and quantity of sleep. And the benefits from sleep are obviously well established and we know yoga improves many of the same things. So I really would love to know, if you sleep deprived people and still made them do yoga, would they still have the benefits? I think that's a really interesting question.

Yeah, that's interesting because long-term meditators who only do meditation, Tibetan monks and some—

It's way less.

Yeah. Right?

They sleep way less because they wake up at like 3 AM and they're always meditating. And within those short spans of meditation, I think this study has been done by Richard Davidson's lab. I think they have done fMRI recordings of like alpha wave, like all the sleep waves of these long-term meditators as well, and comparing them to like short-term meditators or Beginners, right? I think I feel like I've studied, looked at that paper and they do find that, from what I remember, that the long-term meditators have the, I guess the sleep or the waves of their brain activity are very similar to like deep sleep states or something like that.

And so— Right, right, right. So during meditation, you almost take on a different state of consciousness that approaches Sleep. Yeah.

So that's really interesting because now we're finding like sleep has obviously an effect on attention, memory, physical ability, metabolism, and all of these aspects. And so it makes sense that what you're saying, right? Like by improving sleep quality itself, I think yoga has beneficial effects on multiple aspects. And in fact, in veterans with PTSD, I think there are a couple of studies showing that the most improvement yoga practice for, I think, 20 weeks or maybe less than that had improvements on sleep quality more so than like levels of anxiety or anything. It had, so it shows that, you know, it has an effect on sleep. And then that relates to like pharmacological treatments that are used in these patients with PTSD also, which also has most beneficial effects on sleep. over other things, right? So yeah, that's a very interesting, I think we need to find more researchers doing yoga and sleep-related research.

Yeah. So what is your lab working on now with regards to like breath activities and how breath activities affect brainstem functions and by extension the rest of the brain? I know that's like your main area.

Yeah, like right now my research is focused on 2 sort of broad areas. I am looking more so bottom-up rather than top-down. So one is Related to actually energy metabolism because my research has been focused on the role of the amygdala in regulation of fear and stress for a long time. But any fear-related condition or behavior also involves a utilization of energy from the body, right? But how exactly that happens, because stress-related behavior functions are like in the continuum of fight or flight or freeze reactions, right? So when we are very stressed, that those are the reactions our body shows, but that means those are energy demanding. Kind of behaviors. And so is it carbohydrate utilization? Is it fat utilization? It's not very clearly known. And again, because the body has been ignored in neuroscience research. And so we are studying how during fear-related, these behavioral functions, what are the changes in cardiorespiratory functions? So we're measuring their heart rate, their blood pressure, the, also their breathing, respiration. And then on, in addition, we're also looking at changes in energy metabolism by measuring indirect calorimetry. So we can look at many different aspects of metabolism. So we can look at oxygen intake. So how much oxy— so someone's differences in how much oxygen is utilized can also alter metabolic functions. And then carbon dioxide, food intake, water intake, we can look at how much energy are being, is being burned. So it's called respiratory exchange ratio and then energy expenditure, many different things, right? So what we find is that one other aspect is that there is not a whole lot of studies on sex differences because males and females utilize energy very differently. And, you know, so that is kind of what, in a broad sort of picture, that is what we're looking at a nuanced level. What are the sex differences and how Stress-related behaviors utilize energy, and we're finding that males tend to utilize more fat, so adipose tissue from the body, whereas females tend to utilize more carbohydrate. And so there's also connectivity of regions of the brain that modulate fear-related behaviors or stress-related behavior that have connectivity with the bodily organs like the adipose tissue or fat, right? But how exactly are those Sympathetic connection modulating energy expenditure. Again, it's a big question. And excitedly, I just, 2 days ago, that one of my research grants on this area of research is going to be funded. Again, I haven't received the official letter, but anyways, so that is, sorry, I'm like talking, taking up a lot of time here, but then just briefly, the second area of research is looking at how cardiorespiratory changes, so altering heart functions, in turn alters fear-related behaviors by, through the vagus nerve, right? So through this specific pathway in the vagus. But again, I don't wanna get into too much of that, but that's in the big picture. Yeah.

Wow. So do you think that it would be like, why would it ever be advantageous to have sex-dependent energy metabolism differences? Like, I'm just trying to understand why.

Yeah, I know. I think it's like evolutionarily, right? Even at baseline levels, we find that there are sex differences in how energy is being utilized. And probably evolutionarily, that's how the body, the adi— utilization of energy for like long-term, cuz adipose tissues are like a long-term storage of energy. And so maybe in males that became a major resource, whereas I guess for females it was different. I'm not exactly sure why, right?

Yeah.

But.

Ethologically itself, if you look at it, it's different, right? So there, there is something to that, which again, in scientific research also, one of the sort of controversies has been a lot of like research has been derived by only studying males, right? And there hasn't been a huge focus on female subjects. And that's why now we're finding a lot of mental health related drugs or pharmacological treatments. may not have efficacy because some of them have been derived by only studying male subjects or male animals. And so I think that is shifting a lot. I think because of estrous cycle and how the body utilizes fat in males and females, that's very different. And all of that is again modulated by the cycle. And I think that's like the complicated aspect of it, which needs to be studied more.

Your long-term hypotheses then are that Yoga, some of the main mechanisms by which yoga affects brain function is by directly altering respiratory function and cardiac function, which then affects the brain. Is that correct?

Yeah.

'Cause by altering, yeah, that's the second line, which I briefly mentioned. That's what we're looking at by altering, by being able to alter these vagal information coming from the heart and altering lung functions. If we're able to alter these brainstem structures that receive information from the bodily organs like the heart, and then in turn alter for brain functions.

Yeah.

Which now there are a couple of studies, basic science research that has shown that is the case. There's a lot of like connection from the gut to the brain in terms of anorexia or food intake and things like this. But I think a lot of studies also on the end of like heart to the brain connectivity.

So one of the things I've been interested in recently is how the world has semi or somewhat moved into online yoga. There is still to this day, like a lot of yoga centers that exclusively are online or yoga teachers who are exclusively online. And I think it's a very different intervention. I think anyone who's done both in-person and online yoga knows this. And so there are a lot of new papers coming out trying to understand, are the outcomes different? Are the effects different? Obviously the benefits of online are that it's It's more accessible. It could be asynchronous, so people could do it on their own schedule. You could choose a teacher that you really like that might not be geographically close to you. But the downsides are people are just way less engaged. There was one study I saw where people reported they were doing on— they had everyone sign up for a platform where they did online yoga and people were reporting they were doing like many hours a week, but in reality they were only doing 40 minutes. So like their perception of how much they were doing was just so different.

Yeah.

So I've just been really interested in where the future is going with online yoga as an intervention. I'm going to, I'm going to put up a poll just because I think it'll be good discussion when we open the mic in a couple of minutes. This is just about like online yoga. Have people done online yoga? What percent of the classes they're currently taking are online? And do they find that for them personally, that yoga offers similar benefits? I'll just be interested to see.

Nice. You're so good at this.

We'll leave the poll up for about 75 to 90 seconds or so, and then we'll open up the mics. Okay. About 10 more seconds for the poll to be up. Okay. Are you guys able to see this? So it looks like 70% of people have done live classes. 40% of people have done prerecorded classes. So only 1 out of 10 people who answered have not done any online yoga. And it looks like currently a lot of, it's very bimodal. Some people try to do very little online yoga and some try to do a lot of it. And the same in the benefits profile. So some people, uh, 50% of people find it offers the same benefits and 50% find it doesn't. Yeah, it's really interesting. It's like a polarizing topic, it looks like.

Yeah, it's so interesting because when you go to an actual class, there is that you have to do it. But at the home, sometimes I've felt this way too, right? Like I'm like, oh, maybe I'll skip this or something, right? I think that's—

100%. 100%. Yeah. Yeah, there's definitely the peer pressure element is removed. So I'm going to unmute the mics and now everyone can join in the discussion. But yeah, everyone, I know some people were taking notes. I hope you were brainstorming questions and really thinking through things. We can keep talking forever, but I also—

I know, right?

We need to find things that—

Always going in like tangents and stuff. That's why it's like we can't have one topic.

But if anyone wants to jump in with questions or commentary on what we've already discussed, I think it would be really great.

Otherwise, this one says, I think online yoga is good if you're sick or for time constraints, but in person offers so much more.

Yeah.

What do you think?

I agree. I think a combination, like a hybrid, is best because sometimes you don't have the, the time or the, if you're traveling and you still want to take with your particular teacher that you've come to know, it's good to be able to tune in online, but If you do it exclusively online, I find that I actually fall asleep. I don't know if anyone else has done this, but I will literally sleep on the floor for 3 hours because it just is relaxing enough and I'm home and then I'm out.

But is it like in the middle of like a posture or something? Or is it like when it goes towards shavasana or yoga nidra or something like that?

It can even be before.

Really?

Okay.

Yeah, it's, it's usually towards the end though, but yeah, I don't know. Has anyone else had that happen to them? I think another thing about doing it online is that I find I learn a lot and get a lot of tips and tricks by watching how other people do it. And the yoga center I go to is like very collaborative. Like people, the person next to you will be like, no, put your hand here. Like it's everyone's teaching each other. I definitely miss out on that when I'm In my apartment.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Like when I've also taught online, it just always feels, oh my gosh, like talking to a wall. Obviously people are there, but then a lot of the times people turn off the video or something and then it's just like a very awkward sort of feeling.

I don't know. Yeah.

For the teacher too, it's very different.

Yep. Talking a lot about online. Yeah. Let us know if you, any of you have any other questions.

I agree with the message posted under chat. Yeah. In-person is definitely the way to go, at least for me. I tried the virtual yoga classes when I didn't have any other option, and it just wasn't for me. I didn't have the same kind of immersive experience. And also, I don't know if this is related, but I've got an issue with my back now. I talked to a massage therapist about it, and he said it looks like maybe the last rib is loose or misaligned or something, because multiple times during the day I have to push down on it and kind of relieve the soreness. If that makes sense. But yeah, I just, I really think it's valuable to have an instructor in person.

Yeah. Cuz then that's actually a really good point. If you have something going on with your body, like the person being there with you physically makes a huge difference for them being able to adjust and make modifications for you. Much harder to do over the internet.

That's so true. And even in the traditional form of doing yoga, right? That is always like you did it in pre— you do it in present of like a guru or somebody who's leading it. And that makes sense. I think that is the component that would be difficult, but at the same time for collection, I think we were briefly talking about this in the beginning, for collecting data, scientific data on some aspects of, you know, beneficial effects of yoga, I think it would garner more participants.

Yeah.

Right.

And that's, that's one of the reasons I'm so interested in it. I think getting Doing research on live yoga classes is very challenging because then you're either really geographically limited, like only people who can physically go to that yoga class can attend, and now your recruitment is terrible, which is, by the way, one of the reasons why there are very small sample sizes in yoga studies. Or if you want to include a larger geographic sample, you then need to standardize the intervention. You can't have 10 different teachers because now everyone's getting a different yoga class. So it becomes a, you know, kind of murky problem. And I think online makes the potential for a standardized, widely geographically available intervention that you can also embed more metrics and tools in. Like you can know how much people are watching of the video and how frequently they're attending and it's all automatic and it just like really reduces the cost. of conducting research. So yeah, I think we really do need to answer, are the benefits the same? And if so, who is it for? Because it's obviously for some people. And I think there, there is a way to probably even improve it and make it for more people and ultimately do good science with online yoga in addition to continuing science on in-person yoga, and then also really use it as treatment one day. Okay.

Yeah. Yeah. There's more on this, I guess.

Yeah. So yeah, the energy is not present online. I feel like we suffered through it during COVID lockdowns, right? When you have to, you put up with it. But I did it when forced to. I completed my yoga teacher training and did it online and just does not connect with your mind, body, and spirit. I believe the same is true for any spiritual practice. I'm also a bit older, so anything in person is always preferable to online. Yeah, I totally feel that too.

Sure. I, I'm actually working on a yoga clinical trial at Memorial Sloan Kettering, and we've actually been going through all of these debates over the last year as we're planning through COVID. And ultimately we, we are currently doing a hybrid model and the virtual platform does increase our access, which is so important. But I'm so curious just about this idea of like our bodies in proximity to one another and our ability to co-regulate and how that could affect the data of, you know, if our nervous systems actually being in proximity versus interacting through a screen and our, you know, sensory system's not really engaged in the same way. And like if there's data, if that's measurable and if there is any data on that, that just introduced another variable.

Yeah, I think that relates to observational. I related to the observational fear studies because, you know, that's like my area, but there are studies coming out showing by just observing someone going through traumatic experience or, you know, some kind of difficulty, It can affect, you know, the person who is just observing, right? And I think it kind of relates to that because of co-regulation in the opposite sense, right? Like seeing others around you in a relaxed state, I think does have that impact. So I'm relating it to, but I don't know if any specific studies on that. I don't know, Jonathan, do you?

Yeah, I just did a quick search because I couldn't think of anything, but there's no, there's no papers looking at kind of the social aspects of yoga. I think it would be really interesting to And this study wouldn't even be that hard. You could just cross-sectionally look at yoga centers, some that are kind of more social and more involved and like come like return rate, student return rate, like the same students come to this class every single week versus compare that to classes where it's more transitory and fewer people are connecting and know each other. Does that affect the outcomes of yoga? And you could look at very basic, you know, well-replicated outcomes of yoga. Mood effects, sleep effects, attentional effects. And I think that would really help get at the answer. I think this really goes back to what we were talking about before, which is yoga is a multi-component intervention that probably, well, almost certainly works through many different mechanisms. And the social aspect would be more of a top-down type mechanism, right? Because you're, you know, Social areas of your brain, more higher order, recognizing that and then having an effect on lower down areas. And that effect might, you know, I don't know what percent of the benefit of yoga it would be. Maybe it's 10, maybe it's 20, maybe it's even more. There's a lot of research looking at the development of dementia over time. And one of the single biggest predictors of protecting someone from dementia is, this is crazy, it's Having someone to listen to you. So like, it's a very social component to brain health. So yeah, I totally would love to know more about this.

It also reminded me of the psychedelic studies that are going on right now where they have to be, their efficacy is the best only when in presence of a therapist, right? Or someone Who can guide you through the process. So yeah, that's also interesting. So I don't know, I was curious about your studies if you wanna like share what you're—

I work with the Integrative Medicine Service at Memorial Sloan Kettering. I'm actually by training, I'm a dance movement psychotherapist and our lab is actually looking at yoga and we also have an acupuncture study for both for chemotherapy-induced peripheral neuropathy. So we're looking at mostly pain management is our primary outcome, but in the yoga study, we're also looking at other things like how balance is affected and gait and all of that, those other, those other outcomes as well. But it's mostly about pain management. So a little different from what we're discussing here, but I think, you know, as an overall, maybe like breathing and all that, just overall as a system, you, maybe you're building more of a capacity to tolerate the pain and that could change your pain scores. I think it's a different— mechanisms I think that are still related.

That's so interesting. Yeah. 'Cause in the Veterans Yoga Project that they, that is one of the main measures they look at is pain, right? Like, 'cause you, that's something like you can, you know, score it well, which probably, you know, Jonathan, right? Like, yeah, probably be able to say that because you can give a score, right, for a pain much more, I guess, clearly than some other aspects.

Yeah. Like subjective direct pain measures kind of stink. They're so variable and Even the same person gives different for like, but there are kind of more higher order interpretation of pain questionnaires that are more validated and consistent.

A couple of questions here.

Yeah. So Mila says, hello, I'm a yoga teacher and student of neuroscience from Brazil.

Awesome.

Welcome. I teach and practice online, and in my experience, for beginners, it's very difficult to practice online, but for more experienced practitioners, I believe the results are very good. That's really interesting. Um, that makes a lot of sense too, cuz like when you're learning, wow, that's a really good answer.

Also in terms of like discipline or habit, right? For someone who's already like practicing, I think it's like much easier to get into, but maybe for like beginners it would be much more difficult. That's another aspect of it. Yeah.

Yeah.

I can read the next one from Jess. I wish there was more research on the relationship between teachers and practitioners. I find it much more difficult to breathe effectively around teachers with whom I don't have a sense of trust and belonging, although I push myself physically harder and probably get some benefit around the teachers who are more militaristic in their approach. That's so interesting too, right? That's so true. I think it's also like in terms of non-human studies where, you know, like meeting a stranger or something has an effect on our Bodily, like cardiorespiratory functions and things like that. So it's, that's— Yeah.

Can you actually say more about those studies? So you're referring to like mouse studies where you—

Or even monkey studies.

Or monkey studies where you introduce, you know, an animal of the same species that's unfamiliar to that subject animal and you really see differences in their stress response and how they kind of, they're like hypervigilant and like very, you know, they're trying to figure out if they trust this other being. So yeah, and I think that humans being so, so, so, so social, we're very sensitive to these things. And I, I agree. Like, I mean, Jess, we've talked about this before too. Like, I just think it, it really, my teacher says there's a right teacher for everyone and it's because there are just so many different people who have different personalities and need to find the right Match for their teacher?

Yeah, that's such a valid question. Yeah, but I don't, it's so true. I don't think those studies haven't been done in terms of looking at, you know, that.

Yeah. How would you even do that? Like how, I mean, I guess you could just quickly, you know, look at if they like, like the teacher, which is what Jess and I have talked about before, like just like, hey, do you like this teacher? And then see if the outcomes are different. But could you predict, would there be a way to predict like this teacher and this student would be a good match? Do we need a Tinder for yoga teachers?

That's so funny.

Yeah.

Ah, interesting.

Really interesting.

Oh, there are 2 people from Brazil, I guess.

Yeah.

Mila says, in Brazil we still have a lot of prejudice about yoga as if it were something mystical or something. Oh, I think, yeah, that's so prominent. I, so many people ask if like yoga is a religion. I started studying neuroscience so that people could validate my teachings about yoga more. I'd love to know how you both See the recognition and validation of yoga by medical professionals and also by the use of yoga in corporate environments.

Yeah, that is definitely something, you know, I myself have faced also, like in the scientific world, there are so many people who are so closed off to yoga, even like talking about yoga in terms of effect, you know, affecting health, wellbeing, or stress, and, you know, sometimes You get comments like hippie scientists do that or things like that, which definitely is, I think, I think it's like people who understand there are some very well-known researchers who are doing this research. And there's like, I think it's also because a lot of yoga-related research has been difficult to do. And that's why people don't trust that data because in science, everything is measurable data, like anything that's more like personal or these kind of things, it's hard to measure, right? And I think most of the effects of yoga has been anecdotal, right? Like it hasn't been a well-conducted study. And I think that's where the bias comes from. The scientist is like, you know, needing this like a very accurate sort of measure, which is true. We need that to be able to convince those kind of peoples, I think.

Yeah.

But I mean, I am not shy about, I used to be, you know, some, I would pick and choose who I would talk to and if they were closed off, I wouldn't. But now I'm like pretty open about, you know, this is the path. This is why like I'm integrating my research and yoga. And at some point you just like, I think, start ignoring some of the people, right? Who are biased in that sense.

Yeah. And I think it's hard to argue with data. Like if someone has data that something works, you can't argue with it. Like it's There. It's empiric.

Yeah.

And I think that the amount of data coming out about yoga and many different out outcomes is exponential. There's so much of it. And the number of researchers interested in this is growing. There are researchers from institutions that are reputable all over the world contributing. And yeah, there are physicians interested in this. Like it's, I think anyone who is still dismissive hasn't seen The data yet, particularly if they're coming from a background where they should be convinced by data. And then, you know, my, my approach is I probably am more on the shy side. Like I don't ever, you know, I'm not like, I put my feelers out and I get a sense if someone would be interested in talking about yoga and how it affects the brain. And then if that's the case, then I'll talk more about it and see how it goes. And usually people are very open to it. Even patients are very open to it. Like if a patient is You know, there's really great evidence for yoga in back pain and, you know, a lot of patients don't want to have to go to physical therapy 3 times a week and get shots in their back or anything like that. And they're more interested in something like yoga. So yeah, I find that there are definitely a lot of people who are very open and interested in it when you just show them the numbers. And I'll pull up this great meta-analysis from Holger Kramer where He shows, you know, improvements in pain perception and back pain score, you know, rating systems. And people are like, oh, that looks pretty good. I would love it if my back pain was 30% better. Like, yeah.

I also use the fact that National Institute of Health has this institute called NCIH, National Institute for Complementary. I forget what the full form is, but it's NCIH, right? Complementary Health and something. But they fund a lot of research in both clinical as well as basic science research. Looking at mind-body practices like yoga, tai chi. And so there are those studies, but again, one of the emphasis for the basic science is that what we had talked about in the beginning is in terms of not knowing what the biological mechanism of yoga is, right? Like how exactly does it help? And so they are funding a lot of research on this area, like how breathing, there's a lot of funding for breathing effects in both basic science level as well as clinical level. And then, so I also use that as an example because they conduct Conduct a lot of like these like workshops and panels and things like that on looking at how and presenting the studies. And so I think, you know, there is that general interest. And then also in the military population, there has been a lot coming out, right? With the Veterans Yoga Project and some other, which has shown like the Prison Yoga Project as well as the Veterans Yoga Project has some interesting like data, you know, not, it's not like a very well-conducted scientific study, but at the same time, there are these data showing beneficial effects at multiple levels. So I use those also, I think, when I'm talking to some people. So that helps. We have more questions.

Yeah. So Camilla's on the other side. She says, I do classes online and I love it. Actually, it's the only way to have classes with my teacher because I, I live far away from her. I really think that you need a really good and prepared teacher with a good methodology to teach without touching and a good communication and attention to every part of your body. Yeah. So that's I think there is a way to do it and some people are really good at it online. I do still think that if, you know, let's say there was someone who didn't vibe with that teacher or didn't have, you know, anyone who could convince 'em that online yoga was good, they would still have a hard time with it compared to in person. But I do agree, like there is a way to shift the needle and more people could really benefit from online.

Yeah.

Yeah. Oh, I mean, definitely both would be able to go forward and I think we would learn a lot even from the online, right, data as we've talked about.

Yeah.

From Jess again, do you think that many scientists and healthcare professionals are closed off to yoga because of the way medicine has prioritized becoming a specialist in one part of the body rather than seeing our body-brain as integrating parts of a whole system? Yeah, I think at basic science level, maybe. Yeah, right. If I look at from a neuroscience research perspective, that is the case. That's why, you know, people who specialize in like one brain region or one aspect of study, like decision-making or drug addiction or stress and fear, right? Like they're so focused on that. And that's kind of where the medicine has been also focused is really understanding how exactly the brain, especially I'm relating it to mental health condition, is like how the brain works. And this aspect of bodily function has been ignored, right? So it is, I think that may have contributed to some aspect of this bias. I don't know. Do you, from your end, do you think there's other specific?

I think it could. I definitely think, you know, like where I am, people say like knowing your medicine. So like, you know, I'm, I'm biased. I'm a specialist, right? But like knowing your medicine. Is the difference between a good physician and a great one. That's like very frequently what people say. When we say medicine, we mean like general medicine as opposed to just knowing neurology. So I do think that there is always like a push for you to still know everything, still keep up your medicine. But I definitely think that's not always the case. Like, I think a lot of people struggle to keep up with what's going on in all of the different fields. And I bet that. You know, when you really niche down and you're like, I only do Botox for migraines or something like that, you know, now you might be less open to other things. Yeah, I definitely think when you niche down too hard, you can get really closed off. I hope—

That is the case. And I think so some ways some of the research only goes in circular fashion because of that. And you know, for me, like one of the aspects that's very, really like mind-boggling is like almost 25 years or so of research on just focusing on like, you know, brain pathways and stuff has led to understanding of the brain, which is great, but it hasn't led to any kind of breakthrough treatment for mental health conditions, right? And so that is also why NIMH and many other institutes are now opening up to looking at other avenues, right, to treat mental health conditions. And I think that also speaks about that because of all these institutes that are focusing on multiple aspects like immune function, metabolism, cardiorespiratory, all of these are interrelated. And again, brain doesn't work in isolation from the body, right? So again, that aspect of it.

I will say all that research has really benefited neurology though.

Yeah.

Awesome.

So, um, yeah, so amazing questions.

Yeah. Thank you everyone so much for your participation. That's what makes these events like so fun and just like A great celebration of International Day of Yoga.

I think one thing we always like talk about is the importance of reading scientific literature, right? Because there are some like, I guess, scientists also here, but all, you know, sometimes we tend to come to conclusions by like headline news or something about science, and that does happen. And I think it's really important to read a research paper and understand That what they're claiming is actually what's what they're doing, right? And so I think that's something we tend to emphasize a lot during these sessions. I don't know if you have anything more to add to that, Jonathan.

You're so good at this. I'm so, no, I'm so glad you brought that up. I think that's like the single most important message. You know, I think science misinformation in our time is one of the most dangerous things. And not just on a personal individual level, but I think it really is a societal problem. And I, I do plan to, once I kind of like get my stuff together and move on to the next year of residency. I will post on YouTube the recording of the How to Read a Scientific Paper session from the conference. I think that one is just like, it needs to be available for everyone and anyone who wants to learn how to read a paper and check things themselves will have that opportunity.

Do you wanna share about the NeuroYoga just in case there are people who don't know about the NeuroYoga conference?

Yeah, sure. So the annual Neuroscience and Yoga online conference is just kind of like this, but on a, you know, much bigger scale. So we have researchers from all over the world presenting their work and talking on very interesting topics. We've had yoga and cognition, yoga and mental health, yoga and addiction, yoga and pain, yoga and child development, and yoga and brain aging. And yeah, more to come. And we really try to connect people with science. I really think that scientists need to talk to the public more and the public needs to talk scientists more and especially in the yoga world. So it's really fun.

Yeah, I think that's so important, right? To really, for even like yoga teachers and yoga practitioners to understand what actually is there about the scientific aspect of yoga. I think that's so important. Yeah. And then, oh, last, I think, thank you so much for organizing this meeting. I'm hoping to join an Iyengar yoga class on Tuesday. Not planned to overlap with Yoga Day, but turned out that way. Look forward to more discussion like that. Awesome.

Yeah.

I think the people who joined, they would receive the NeuroYoga emails and stuff, right? So they would be able to learn about the conference, probably?

Yes, I will keep everyone posted about the conference and I'll make sure everyone here knows about it. And the dates for next year are not exactly set yet, but it's usually the 3rd week of March. It will always align with Brain Awareness Week, and it'll either be at the beginning of Brain Awareness Week or at the end of Brain Awareness Week, just based on, you know, everyone's schedule. And I want it to be somewhat in person too. I want it to be kind of hybrid and we'll see if that's going to be possible.

Next year. Yeah. Oh yeah. That'd be interesting. Yeah.

Yeah.

All right. Yeah. Sounds good. Okay. So it's, we are at 7 o'clock. Thank you so much for everyone who could make it. It's a holiday weekend here in the US, but again, I am sure we'll be doing more of these, right?

My, my goal honestly is to do One a month and just fun discussions and just keep the conversation going just cuz between the conferences it's like really quiet and I think we need to keep the conversation going.

And that's a good idea. Yeah. Like invite, you know, different researchers or something.

Yeah, that would be cool, right? Yeah. Yeah.

That's kind of what I thought.

Like every once in a while.

Yeah.

I'm sure Satbir would be happy to be on.

He's always down. He's always down. He's just. Pierre loves this stuff.

Yeah.

All right.

All right. Thank you all.

Thank you everyone. It was so great. I really appreciate everyone's questions. Yeah. And thank you so much, Abba. It's always so fun.

Oh yeah, always. I mean, we can probably continue, right, for a while, but all right then.

Good night, everyone.