Jordan Raynor (Host of the Mere Christians podcast)

Hey, friend. Welcome to the Mere Christians Podcast. I'm Jordan Raynor. How does the gospel influence the work of mere Christians? Those of us who aren't pastors or religious professionals, but who work as entrepreneurs, baristas and accountants? That's the question we explore every week. And today we're posing it to me. That's right. For episode 300 of the podcast, we're doing something different. We're flipping the mic. As my VP of marketing and co author on Five Beer Christians, Kaylee Cox interviews me because I'm sharing in today's episode why I've decided to put the podcast on hiatus after 300 episodes and millions of downloads. We talked about how I think about what I need to prune in order to pursue the ministry of excellence in other things. And I also shared the 10 moments of this show that I've thought about most post recording. Guys, this is a bittersweet episode to record, certainly not an easy one. But I hope you enjoy what, for the time being, will be the last episode of the Mere Christians Podcast.

Hello, Jordan.

Kaylie Cox. We're doing this again.

We are doing this again. And if people skipped the introduction, they are going to be very confused very quickly because you just dropped a bombshell in the introduction. Do you want to repeat it for those poor souls that use that fast forward by 30 seconds button? Like I do.

I was going to say like I do. The few times I've listened to podcasts. Yeah. If you missed the introduction, I just announced that that we are putting the Mere Christians podcast on hiatus indefinitely. So episode 300 might be the last episode ever. I hope not. But it will certainly be the last episode for at least a season at a time. So there you go.

I am resisting the urge to boo. I love the podcast. I know our listeners love the podcast. So I'm going to grill you today on why you've made this decision.

But before we do that, hold on, hold on. To be clear, you're not just going to grow me. Kaylee's been trying to talk me out of this decision for months, so this is her last ditch effort. We'll see where we land at the end of this episode.

This could end up being a very confusing episode. But before we get into that and we talk about why you've decided to put the show on hiatus, can we take a minute to just celebrate what God has done through the Mere Christians podcast?

Yeah, I don't think I've. I was just sharing before we start recording. I don't think. I don't Think I've done enough of that.

And I've heard you say before that you don't always stop and celebrate. So we're going to stop and we're going to celebrate. This is episode number 300. There are nearly 2 million downloads in every country on Earth. More than a thousand reviews with an average star rating of 4.9, which is nearly unheard of. Does that blow your mind?

Yeah, it does. Especially because I don't listen to podcasts. I have no earthly idea what I'm doing in this medium. I've actually been thinking a lot about this lately. A lot of my favorite creators entered into their craft via naivete. I was reading my highlights from Steve Martin's autobiography, Born Standing up, and he says, quote, he was talking about naivete. He says, naivete, that fabulous quality that keeps you from knowing just how unsuited you are for what you're about to do. End quote. Right. Like, that was me in 2019 thinking about this podcast at the time, the call to mastery that eventually became mere Christians. But I will say, over time, I did realize how unsuited I was to do this. And yet God has still done an amazing work through this show and show. So of course, it makes it a lot easier to give him credit and glory. That would have been true otherwise, but it's just, like, so painfully obvious that I didn't know I was doing that. It's easier to give him credit and glory. I've done a bad job of this over the last six years. I have not done nearly as good of a job of thinking the incredible team behind this show. We've actually had the same exact team working on this podcast since episode number one, which blows my mind. My longtime assistant, Kayla Taylor, my producer, Chris Perry, who's edited every single one of these episodes. And then this firm that we've contracted with since day one in Canada called we edit podcast that's done all the technical entities. So Chris is really. Chris has a master's in divinity, really doing a lot of substantive editing.

And.

And we edit podcast, done a great job on the technical side. So all credit goes to that team and, of course, God working through that team for this crazy ride.

Okay, so you have a great team. God bless the fruit. Can you tell us why now? Why have you made the decision to put it on hold when there have been people, myself included, begging you to keep it? But let's hear it straight from you. What. What led to this decision?

Yeah, I mean, first and foremost, something on my plate had to go, as you know, Kaylee, I think I've hinted at this on the podcast, but I haven't been really explicit about it. But I've been pretty overwhelmed for about six, let's call it six to nine months now. We're doing two books a year if you count kids books, plus, you know, a trade book like Sacredness, Secular Work or Redeeming youg Time or five Meer Christians, two podcasts a week. Right? I got this, we got the Word Before Work podcast, which is also an email form. I'm doing 15 to 20 speeches a year. I got a couple of paid communities and oh, by the way, like, things are only getting busier at home. I have a 5 year old, an 8 year old and a 10 year old and increasingly I just have very little time to create and to explore better pathways to furthering my mission of helping Christians connect the gospel to the work. And I need more time to play. I talked about it in the episode with Tim Kroll a little bit a couple months ago. Right. I need more time to play, to explore, to create new mediums. So something had to go. Why this podcast? Specifically? Because trust me, this was an excruciating decision that I've gotten plenty of hate mail already for from friends who, who got advanced notice of this. Yeah, a couple things, like one, just to be like, totally frank, downloads have slipped a little bit. I am learning. This is hard for me as a performer and a people pleaser, but I'm learning to boast of my weaknesses, as Paul says, because I think God gets greater glory when we say, hey, this thing over here isn't working. I'm okay and God is still good. I think that is a crazy thing to say in this culture of non stop social media and everybody has to act like they're killing it. And the fact is this podcast hasn't been killing it for a little bit, right? Downloads have been falling a little bit. And conversely, my other content is growing and is gaining in traction. My books, my speaking the word before devotional emails, which by the way, are going to continue. Hopefully. We'll talk about that at the end. That free content is increasing in audience and engagement. This one's not. And then I would say the last reason is this. Listen, I think I'm a decent podcast host, but I don't think I could be best in. I'm not sure I could be best in class at this. And I'm not. This is not best as in like comparing myself to others necessarily, just comparing this to the other things that I've Got on my plate. I think I'm a better writer and speaker than I am podcaster. And so because I'm committed to the ministry of excellence and everything that I am doing, it means I got to do really few things. And I just want to spend as much time as possible on the things I think I can do best to further this mission. So I know that's a terribly unsatisfactory answer for Kaylie Cox, but that is the crux. That's the crux of the answer.

Well, I think it's a really helpful example for listeners and hopefully an encouraging one, because you're the redeeming your time guy. You still had a finite amount of time in a day and amount of energy because you're human and God created us to be finite. And so you had to make a decision to cut something. And it sounds like you did it not because the podcast was a bad thing or that it just wasn't working, but that it wasn't the best thing. Is that how you would say that?

That's. That's exactly right. I said this to a friend as I was going through this wrestling of, like, what I was going to cut. I was like, yeah, I'm just increasingly forced to face my finitude and I hate it. Right. Like, listen, because, like, cutting things, it's so easy to, like, say in books, like, oh, cut things that aren't working or aren't aligned with your goals. Duh. Like, that's the easiest thing to do in the world. But the hard and most important work, in my opinion, is choosing to cut things that are working but just aren't the best use of your time. And so, yeah, downloads were fine, but listen, this podcast is still highly strategic. There are extremely valuable things I am losing by putting this podcast on hiatus. We were just talking about some of those things before we started recording. A very, very, very famous Christian influencer, who you all know and love, emailed me asking for a favor to have his friend on the podcast to talk about his friend's book. And by the way, the book looks phenomenal. I would have loved to have done an episode on it, but I say no, that's costly, right? But like, I talk about this in redeeming your time. Setting priorities and goals is relatively easy. Identify posteriorities, the good but not great uses of your time. That's the hard stuff, like identifying it and being willing to kill it or put it on pause. That's really tough. It's actually a quote from this podcast from a not that popular of an episode from this farmer named Noah Sanders that I've been thinking a lot about in this season. I love that episode too. Noah said, the harder you prune a tree, the more fruit you get. Like, yeah, I think that's right. Like, and as I study the people who have accomplished the biggest God sized goals on the planet, they pruned ruthlessly in order to make room for the best stuff to grow. So again, we're not kind of the podcast because it's bad or it's not necessarily not working. It's just in my opinion, and hopefully, hopefully some of you guys will have strong opinions to the contrary. But I, I'm just not sure it's the best use of my time right now. And again, I'm not saying I'm killing this thing. I may use that word from time to time, but we're, we're pausing this thing and Lord willing, we will pick it back up again.

What would lead to that? And, and what can we all do to drinking about? No, I'm kidding. But you are, you are intentionally using the word hiatus. So that means the door is open for you. What would it take for you to decide? Okay, hiatus is over and this is back on my plate.

This is a Kaylee Cox Jesus juke answer, but I really mean it. I mean, listen, if I sensed a clear calling from the Lord that stepping away from this thing is disobedience, I'm going to pick it back up again. Even if it makes zero strategic sense, right? Like, even if I can't justify it. Because listen, like, guys, this show takes a lot of time. It takes a lot of cash too. But that, that's less the concern. By God's grace, it's like I spent 100 hours a year on the show. It's a lot of time, right? Prepping for it, recording it. But if I hear a clear prompting for the Lord to pick it back up, I will, I hope I will. I'll say that I hope I will. My best days. I would say yes to that. I think. Second, Kaylee, you know our listeners don't know and I'm not ready to share all the details of this yet, but you and I have just landed on the next big hairy, audacious goal for Jordan Rayner Co. That'll span the next two and a half years. Ish, which I will share, has pretty much everything to do with books and doubling down on books and my content there, that is working. So if we decided that as we get into strategizing about how to achieve that new Goal that this podcast is critical, we'll pick it back up. And then I would say the third thing is, and I've already started to see a little bit of this is the keeper test. You and I have talked about the Keeper test.

Yeah, I've heard you talk about it with hires and being a good hire.

Yeah, yeah. So it's one of my favorite questions of all time. This will probably be the most valuable nugget of this entire episode for you listeners. So part of Netflix's corporate culture and how they keep what they call talent density high, how they ensure that they only keep a players on their team, is this test they call the keeper test. So they go to managers and they say, hey, imagine so and so on, your team comes into your office and announces their two weeks notice. How hard would you fight to keep them? And if the answer is not very hard, they probably shouldn't be on your team anyway. And I think about that a lot. Not necessarily with people on my team, although that is part of it. But I'm thinking about it with things that I'm spending time on. This is going to sound like I'm begging for you guys to email me to keep the podcast. That's really not what I'm looking for. But just being honest about what would cause me to change my mind. If we hear an overwhelming response from people of like, no, Jordan, this is my favorite thing in your universe of content. More than the books, you know, more than the weekly devotional emails. Like, this is the thing I love. If we heard that from tons of people, that would be tough for me to ignore. I'm not saying that's a guarantee that I'm going to pick it back up, but I think that's a pretty good indicator. You, you wrote about this, Kaylee, with Fred Rogers, right? Like, tell, tell that quick story real quick.

Yeah. So Fred Rogers walked away from his dream show multiple times. He left it in Canada because his family was homesick and he was going to be back to the US and that time he thought he would have no trouble starting it back up in the US but then he did have a little bit of trouble. It did take time to get funding. When he finally did get funding, it was only for a year. And he thought that by the end of that year, no brainer, they would extend it because he'd become famous in Canada. So he thought, if I can bring the show here, if I can get a year of funding, I've got my foot in the door and it's a sure thing. But no, at the end of the year, they said, funding's. Funding's gone. You're done. And when they announced that the. That his show is going away, moms rioted, basically. They showed up in multiple cities across the country, basically protesting the end of the show because it meant so much to them and to their kids. And of course, potential sponsor of the show saw that and volunteered to bring the show back. And so, again, we're not expecting everyone to, you know, riot about.

That's why I wanted you to bring up this story. I would be shocked just being, like, really frank. I'd be shocked if we saw that. Listen, despite the 4.9 star rating on this show, which I'm very proud of, I don't know, I think if I told people I'm no longer writing books, I would hope that they would be upset about that. I don't think we're going to make people that upset about canceling the show. I could be wrong, but that's how I'm thinking about this. So we'll see what happens. And honestly, I'm already starting to miss it. I made this decision a couple of months ago, so I'm doing this is Coming, and it has been bittersweet. I have missed the idea of prepping for these interviews, scheduling them. I hate the few people that I've had. The, The. The people that I've had to say no to are unbelievable. Guests, famous and people you've never heard of, like, really great stories. So that is hard. So, I don't know, maybe. Maybe I just need a break and I'll be back six months later. I have no idea.

I want to go back to something you said earlier about the ministry of excellence, because I think what we've talked about so far is really about the excellence side of that, where you've said, I want to do what I can be best at, but it's because of the ministry part of that phrase, that you believe you're doing the best. Ministry and service of others, service of God and others, when you're doing what you're best at. And so the hope, I think, that your heart behind this is that by stepping away from something that has been fun and by many measurements, been successful, and instead focusing on the things you're best at, it will ultimately allow you to do the ministry God has for you.

That's exactly right. And, like, listen, I'm 38 years old and 40 scares the heck out of me. And I. I don't know, the older I get, the more I think man, life is too short to spend any time on things that aren't squarely in my lane. The things that I can do best. Again, best compared to what I could do, not compared to others. Just master of one. And like, that one thing for me over the last. Oh, man, I don't know, six years since I've written that book has gotten increasingly narrow. Right. I don't know. I think that's played a big part in this. Like, I want that one thing to get narrower because I want to double down on. On the thing that's producing the most fruit. Because fruit is a sign that I'm serving others through the ministry of excellence. Does that make sense?

Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I just. I'm glad we could circle back on that, because I like how you clarified that. It's not excellent for excellence's sake or for being the best, you know, as an end in and of itself, but as a ministry to others. But I do want to look back and celebrate what God has done and hear what God did in you being the person in the chair. Interviewing 299 guests, what's been your biggest takeaways from 300 episodes?

You fed these questions to me ahead of time. So I, by the way, which I almost never do with guests, I'm totally cheating on this episode. And I thought about, like, listing out, I don't know, 10 takeaways. I even worked with Chat GPT, fed all the transcripts in. It was like, hey, like, what are the biggest takeaways? And. But I kept coming back to this one that I've been noodling on for the last couple weeks, which is really simple. But, yeah, I think it's this. There. There is just no shortage of jobs that could be done for the glory of God and the good of others. Like, I was in the car with a friend last week, and he played this old Mercy Me song that I'd never heard before. He was, like, really dating himself. But there was this line that, like, stopped me in my tracks. It says, could we with ink the ocean fill? And were the skies of parchment made? Were every stalk on earth a quill? And every man ascribed by trade to write the love of God above would drain the ocean dry. Nor could the scroll contain the whole, though stretched from sky to sky. And I thought, yeah, that's right. Ink and parchment, in the craft of writing alone cannot fully express the love of God. And maybe that's why. It's part of the reason why I think God has created such diversity in vocations, because each Vocation reminds us of a different facet of God's love. Love. Right already. Sequera's work. I love Artie. She's one of those I'm gonna miss having on a third time. Arty's work reminds us that God loves us by filling our stomachs and our mouths with delicious food. While Makoto Fujimura's hands are a vehicle for showing God's love through fine art. While Horse Schultze, going back all the way to episode one five, something like that. His work shows us God's love through hospitality. Right? And I could go on and on and on, but as I've been reflecting on these 300 episodes, I just keep coming back to this picture of a kaleidoscope. Like, imagine a kaleidoscope with 300 gems in it. And each gem represents each vocation of our guests, who all allow us to see a different facet of God's love. So said another way. I don't know. Like, I think my number one takeaway is just a very simple reminder that it is not what a Jesus follower does that makes their work sacred. Why they do the work, how they do the work, and who they do the work with. Namely, the source of all love, our heavenly Father, is what makes it sacred and what allows us and those around us, those that we work with, to better appreciate and understand, to receive different aspects of God's love. Does that make any sense?

Yeah, definitely. And you used the metaphor of a kaleidoscope. I think of one. And I apologize, I do not remember where I originally heard this, so I can't credit them. But when I heard of. Of a tapestry and this idea that on this side of eternity, we see the back of the tapestry and we might see a really beautiful thread and a really cool shape or a stunning color, but then when we get to the new Earth, we get to have that tapestry turned over and we see how God was weaving all of those different stories and vocations and, you know, just individual testimonies and stories together into this beautiful picture that we don't see in full yet, but we will one day.

It's really good. By the way, I think that was from Eldridge's All Things New. I remember this analogy.

If so, that wasn't the first time I heard it. Cause I only recently read All Things New and I'm remembering talking with a friend about this, like, three years ago.

I love that picture so much.

But, yeah, it is. It is a great image and a great book. All Things New. Nice little shout out. Okay. I wanted to also ask you, you know, you. You kind of answered that as a big picture macro takeaway question, but are there any kind of micro moments that stuck with you, like ideas or lines or stories that guests told that, you know, you got done recording and you had to call and tell someone and you kept talking about it after the recording was over or kept thinking about it after the episode aired?

Yeah, I loved getting this question because if I'm being honest, there are a lot of episodes, like, I was just scrolling through the backlog, just looking, like really, really briefly skimming episode titles, and most of them I don't remember, like, a whole lot from. But there are some that even if the whole episode wasn't great, there are lines or ideas or stories that I have thought about over and over and over again, even years after they were told or just like, can't stop telling Cara or my friends. So I quickly made a list off the top of my head. I'm just going to share them in the order in which they came off the top of my head. I stopped myself at 10. I probably could have gotten to 20 or 30. Number one, just in general, Ann Beilers story founder of Annie Ann's Pretzels. It's an unbelievable story that makes Christ look like a greater hero as she shares about some of the trauma of her life. I've told that story a lot. I think about this line from Sam Acho, the ESPN analyst. I remember, I remember asking him, like, hey, man, like, why do you think God cares and delights in your work? And his answer was so crazy. Simple but profound. I loved it. He's like, yeah, I think God delights in my work because God delights in me. And I was like, you know, we can make this whole theology of work thing really complex. By the way my hand is raised. I'm talking about myself here. But, like, in its most simplistic form, God cares about your work near Christian, because God cares about you. Psalm 37:23. The Lord directs steps of the godly. He delights in every detail of their lives. So that was number two that came to mind. Same auto number three. I thought about Artie Sequera saying, the father's hands are in the kitchen. And she was talking about Isaiah and talking about this passage showing God preparing the feast, right? The feast of the lamb, the bank of the Lamb. I'm like, man, it's a beautiful picture. Like, God's not done working. God is at work to this day, as Jesus said, he's preparing a feast for us to enjoy in the new earth. But that's the kickoff to our eternal work, right? God's work is the kickoff to our eternal work that we get to enjoy with him perfectly on the new Earth. So I think about that line a lot. Number four, Noah Sanders is the harder you prune a tree, the more fruit you get. Which already shared I think about all the time. Number five, I've told Stephen Bozzi's story about him going to see his mom dying in the hospital many times. Do you remember this?

Yes, I remember where I was listening to this. It's a really impactful story. Yeah, I was on a run walk, but I remember exactly where I was, like on the trails in my neighborhood. And it was just really powerful.

It's a really powerful story of somebody whose heart has truly been transformed by the gospel. If you haven't listened to that episode, go listen to it. But the net of it is this. Stephen had a really, really traumatic upbringing, if I'm remembering correctly. Basically abandoned by his mom. I might be getting that detail right. But he found out his mom was dying, went to go see her, is walking up the stairs like, I'm gonna get the apology I've been looking for my entire life. And the Holy Spirit just stopped him in his tracks, like, no, no, no, no. You need to breathe Grace in this moment. You need to extend forgiveness even if she doesn't apologize. It was one of the few times I've cried recording this show. It was an amazing story. So go listen to that if you have it. Number six.

And you're just gonna leave them hanging? You've got to go to the episode to hear this.

So good. It's so good. It's so good. By the way, one of the reasons why I'm kicking myself for pausing this is Stephen and I were texting the other day. His son, Nate Borgozzi, world famous comedian, just released a book. Perfect opportunity to have him on the show. And I'm like, yeah, but we're pausing it so one day Nate will be on number six. I think about Jenna Barrett's emailed prayers all the time. Go back and listen to her episode. At the time she was Jenna Fortier. You can find it. Number seven. I don't know why. I do know why I think about this, because outside my window, I'm looking at right now with this little small pond. I don't even think you could call it a lake in our backyard. And frequently I'll see the sunlight hit the water and I'll think about Tim on His second episode of the Mere Christian's podcast. We were talking about how staring death in the eye is like influences work. And he talked about spending more time looking at the light reflecting on the Hudson River, New York and how it was a miracle. I don't know why I think about that so much. I think it's just because it's right outside my window. But just seeing God and taking time to appreciate God's presence in the light, little things is my takeaway from that story. I think about all the almost every day.

And that's Tim Keller, right? For those of us who are not.

On a first name basis, it is Tim Keller. It is Tim Keller number eight. I think the first time I heard this articulated this way was on this podcast with Sky Jatani when I was interviewing him in person in Chicago. He said this line that I've stolen and included in every speech about half truths about heaven since then. It's not in the book Sacredness cycle work. He said, quote, nobody, including Jesus Christ, will spend eternity in heaven, end quote. And I was like, dang, that's gonna make some people mad. But you can't argue with it. Let's go read Revelation 21, Isaiah 60, Isaiah 65. But the way he said it, sky has such a beautiful way with words. I've repeated that line verbally probably more than any other from this podcast. Number nine. I've thought a lot about Deb Lew's open door policy. Deb, the CEO of Ancestry.com who when she was running Facebook Marketplace, pretty big product at Meta a lot anybody on our team to schedule appointments with her. She still does that. Ancestry. And then number 10. I have shared Dave Evans's episode of this podcast more than almost any other. Dave Evans, co founder of EA Sports and we were really talking about not his book necessarily designing your life, which is a huge hit, but this book that influenced that called the will of God is a way of life by Jerry Sitzer. And basically the net of that episode is God's will is much more a way than a thing. Is the way that Dave said it right. It is much more, much less which job you choose, job A, job B. But who you are as you're choosing and who you are in job A or job B, which obviously has tremendous implications for our listeners today. So there you go. I count myself at 10. Those are the first 10 that came to mind.

That last one about more away than a thing reminds me of how I hear you talk often about it being more of a how than a what you do in your work. And I've heard you ask that question to guests since all the way back when it was the call to mastery, where you would say, you know, how does the gospel shape the work you do as fill in the blank? And so I want to ask you that question. How has the gospel and how has this podcast and the things you've learned from your guests impacted how you do your work as a writer and an entrepreneur?

Yeah, I think the most obvious one is that it's caused me to do my work with God and not just for him. When I started this show, I had not read Sky's phenomenal book with which we talk about the first time Scott Jittani was on the podcast. I had actually just. I think I just finished writing Redeeming your time when I read with, and I immediately wanted to take the book back and rewrite a significant portion of it because it was so convicting. And in fact, spoiler alert, there may be a sequel coming to Redeeming your Time. And I've already got a whole section in there of, like, hey, I wish I had said this in the book. Like, do not. Don't you dare trade biblical principles for the author of those principles. Don't you dare look to books like this written by authors like me of, like, no, I'm gonna read the word and tell you what it says. And here's the principle to guide your life. Block you from intimacy with the Lord as you're doing the work. And I think that's been a huge theme of this show. I. I think it's been a huge theme of a lot of the people that I respect most who have come on the show is they are not just doing the work for the Lord, as if God needs us to do anything for Him. They are seeking to do it intimately with him, beyond the quiet time that they start their day with. Right. That's like table stakes, right? Like, I'm talking about in the mundane. I'm talking about Jenna Barrett's email address that she created for her prayers while she was doing an internship at Hilton. I'm talking about sky and his advice of every time you walk through a door, use that as a trigger, a habit trigger, if you will, to remind you that God is with you. I'm talking about what I've shared on the podcast before about this replica I've had made of this sign that hung in Fred Rogers's office reminding him of the love of the father. That's what I'm talking about. So I. I think, honestly, that's the biggest thing that's changed about how I do what I do because of this podcast. I'm doing it with God more than just for him. I think this show has just emboldened me to take bigger swings in my life, in my work. It's reminded me of something I wrote about in redeem your time that paradoxically, the level of competition decreases as the size of your goal increases. And listen, like, we've had some crazy names on this podcast. Big, big, big A list names. Candace Kimmer Beret, Tim Keller, John Mark Comer, Dr. Francis Collins, Artie Squira. Like, I could go, Carly Fiorina was crazy that we got Carly Fiorina, Stephen Barazzi, Nate's express interest in coming on the show. I could go on and on and on. And I've had a lot of other podcasters come to me, like, flabbergasted, like, how in the world do you get these big names? And at the beginning, the answer was, like, very simple. Like, we just asked. Like, that's it. Like, we just sent the email, we just sent the message and asked for the interview. But here's the thing. Most people don't believe that they can get Candace Camera Beret as a guest on their podcast, so they don't even try, right? My team and I believe that we can get anyone because it's not us that's doing this work, but God's holy Spirit who's working in it through us to do this work. And so we take really, really big swings. Now, of course, that means we get a lot of nos, right? Like, I'm still waiting on Denzel Washington to call me back. Condoleezza Rice still hasn't returned my calls.

We may restart the show.

Okay, that's what I should have said earlier. You want to know what's going to get this show back up? If Denzel calls me back, the mere Christians podcast will return. Or any of the other guests I'm really excited about. But, yeah, so, yeah, we get a lot of no's, but we also get way more yeses than the average show because the level of competition decreases as the size of your goal increases. So those are two answers. I mean, one, deeply spiritual and personal with God, not just for him, and the second, deeply, just really practical, because I believe that God is working in and through my team. I'm just swinging for the fences. And this podcast is just exhibit A for what that looks like.

I love that, and I love hearing how it has shaped you professionally, because that's the Question you always ask others. But I would also love to hear if any of the episodes have been profound for you personally in your relationship with your family or your relationship with the Lord. Like, have there been things that have stuck with you outside the narrow scope of how you work?

Yeah. When I think about my family and the leadership of the kids, that that's how I would frame how. How these episodes have affected me personally. It's made me more eager to introduce my kids to the living heroes of the faith. The living mere Christians who are walking with Jesus seriously, outside the four walls of a church. Monday through Friday. I remember I was in some airport, I can't remember. I was stopped by a fan of the show. I hope he's listening. Sorry, I forgot your name. And it was in. I was in Dallas and we were talking about the show and I was asking about his family and he had adult kids walking with the Lord. Every time I meet somebody with adult kids walking with the Lord, I try to ask like, what do you think God used to cultivate that perseverance of the faith? And by far the most common answer to that question is my kids had relationships with other Christian adults that they respected personally and professionally.

Right.

And this podcast has just bolstered my conviction to that end of like, man, I want to give especially my girls, especially being a girl dad, I want to give my girls models of other Christian women and men who are winsome because they are killing it professionally and doing extraordinary things by God's power and follow and thinking really deeply about how the gospel shaping that work beyond making all the T's and their logos crosses. Right. So we've listened in the car, we've listened to Johnny Earxentatas episode. We've listened to Artie Sequera. We've listened to Ms. Christy Christian as a middle school teacher who is a very, very, very close personal friend of theirs and Aunt Bethany who's been on this podcast. We've listened to the stories and so I think it's just bolstered my conviction of the need to tell those stories to my kids. And yes, I want them to actually know a lot of these heroes in real life, but this podcast is kind of the next best thing. And so I would actually issue that as an encouragement to our listeners. Listen, the podcast is going on hiatus, but all this content is going to continue to live on. Go back through and listen to it again. I'll probably be listening to some of this stuff for the first time. Is just like a pure listener. Right. But listen to it with your kids, especially if your kids are, I don't know, let's call it 10 and up. This is family friendly. I don't think we've ever cursed on the show or if we have, we've, you know, blurted out like, I, I think this is part of what it looks like to faithfully disciple our kids is to give them a vision of what it looks like to follow Jesus in careers that they respect and admire and that are winsome to them. Does that make sense, Kaylee?

Yeah. And it reminds me of the episode with Kathy Keller. She said something very similar about her kids being influenced more than anything else by the Christian professionals in their church that they looked up to and admired when their own parents stopped being cool to them.

Yes.

Yeah.

Keller wrote about this in his little book called On Death, which, by the way, these books are phenomenal. They're like, each can be read in 30 minutes on birth, on marriage, I believe, and On Death. And I think it was on, I think it was, it was in one of those books where he, yeah, he credited his boys having relationships with other mere Christians who are impressive vocationally in their church as the means of cultivating that faithfulness. I've never forgotten that.

Yeah. So good. Okay, well, we are running out of time here and I want to put you in the hot seat with the rapid fire question. But before we do that, I would be a terrible VP of marketing if I did not point out that the listeners can still get new content from you every week for free via the Word Before Work, your devotional series. So they can subscribe to that for free@jordanrayner.com.

Yeah.

Right there on the homepage.

Yeah. Oh my gosh. Thank you for doing your job because I would have forgotten about that. Yeah. And I've been writing these devotionals since January of 2016. Dang. That's crazy to think about. That's not going away. So we're going to continue to publish the Word before work, Lord willing, for another 50 years, every Monday morning at 8:00am Eastern. Yeah. So make sure to subscribe to that for free@jordanrayner.com There you go. Shameless plug.

Shameless plug. Okay. Rapid Fire questions. The questions you've always asked at the end of every episode to your guests. First one, what job would you love for God to give you on the New Earth?

So this would be a good little tip for redeeming your time, readers. I've updated my commitment tracking system. I used to have three folders called this week, this quarter. Someday I'VE renamed my Someday folder to Someday maybe slash New Earth. Right? Because I'm just realizing I'm running out of time and the list of things I want to do is very, very long in the New Earth. I think I've said this before. I really want to be personal photographer to Jesus on the New Earth. I would love. I love photography. I don't get to do it much anymore. I would love to follow Jesus around and just record his interactions with with those in the resurrected flesh on the New Earth. I think they'd be a blast. Especially those on the job in the workplace. I want to write musicals. It's actually something I've been enters my brain every few months or so in this life of like, I'd love to write a musical someday. Not gonna happen this in this life. I would love to host this podcast on the New Earth. And by the way, like, I've actually been thinking about this a lot. The more I meditate on the reality of work on the New Earth, the easier it has become to say no to things in this life. I am far more at peace with the unfinished symphonies I talked about. Redeem your time like this podcast. This podcast is an unfinished symphony. And I'm okay with that because I know that if this show is on God's to do list, either one, he will create margin and circumstances for me to pick it back up again. As we talked about before, Denzel's gonna call, right? Two, God will tap somebody else to do something similar, maybe even better. Or maybe even somebody under this mere Christian podcast brand. And yes, before you send me all your emails, why aren't you just co hosting this with Kaylee to make, you know, the workload easier? And you have considered all those options. But maybe there's an option I haven't considered, right? But three, here's the deal. Even if nobody picks up this mere Christian's podcast brand in this life, if God wants it done, he'll invite me to do that work when I arise from the nap that is death. And that just gives me a whole lot more peace to set it aside. Because I no longer believe Satan's lie that this life is my only chance to finish my to do list.

Amen to that. Amen to that. I've had similar freedom not just in work, but in all sorts of life decisions that it's okay if I don't get fill in the blank now or don't get to keep fill in the blank now because of what's coming in the newer okay, if we opened up your Amazon order history. Which book would we see you purchasing the most to give away to friends? Are they all Jordan Rayner books?

Well, the honest answer is that we do gift a whole lot of books, but I. Okay, I actually dug into the data. I didn't. I wanted to answer this question honestly. So here they are in no particular order. I didn't put these in order. Jesus Storybook Bible is still one of my most gifted books. The Freedom of Self Forgetfulness by Tim Keller. It was my entry point into Keller. It's a great entry point for others. In fact, our local church just gave this away on Easter, which I loved. It takes 30 minutes to read. It's probably been one of the most recommended books on this podcast. It's so good with by Sky Jatani, which I've already mentioned. No Rules Rules. Super business ebook by Reed Hastings and Aaron Meyer. Reed is the co founder of Netflix. The Road Less Stupid by Keith Cunningham is another great business book that I've gifted quite a bit. Shoe Dog, my all time favorite book in terms of most entertaining books. I just reread it for like the fourth or fifth time and it's my gosh, it holds up. It's the only book I have literally laughed out loud at multiple times and cried in. It's a terrific book. And speaking of tears, When Breath Becomes Air, I give away a lot. Have you read When Breath Becomes Air?

I need to. Oh my gosh, Jordan. It seems like such an emotion.

It's so heavy. I'm not ready for it's so heavy. But phenomenal. I give that book away a lot. If I'm ever in a drought of reading. Like if you follow me on Goodreads, which is pretty much the only social media platform I engage in that LinkedIn. If you follow me on Goodreads and I'm in a streak of giving books three stars or four stars, you can almost guarantee I'm going to pick back up Shoe Dog and When Breath Becomes Here because it makes me fall in love with the English language again. So good.

Yeah, yeah. I do have When Breath Becomes Air on my list. I just need to be in the right headspace for it. Okay. If we get to bring this back either in this age or in the new Earth, who would you most like to hear on this podcast talking about how the gospel influences the work mere Christians do in the world?

Yeah. So honestly, the episodes of this show that I've enjoyed the most are with people you'd never heard of, like Anna Kemp, the grad student. Recently, I Thought was a lights out, phenomenal episode. Noah Sanders, the farmer, Jenna Bear. I could go on and on. So I got a long list of vocations I want, like, I want an AI prompt engineer or somebody working at OpenAI or one of the big AI startups. I think that'd be fascinating to talk about. I'd love to talk to a garbage collector, an economist, a pilot, a speechwriter. I got a long list of those. But I also do have a long list of a list names that we've gotten no's from or no response from. I want Dolly Parton. I think she's still at the top of my list. Denzel Washington, Justin Paul, who wrote Dear Evan Hansen. He's written some phenomenal stuff. I think he's writing some of the best musicals in the world. Sint Marshall, former CEO of the Dallas Mavericks. Condoleezza Rice, Nate Brazzi, Dr. Lucy Kalanithi. Paul Kalanithi's wife, who wrote When Breath Becomes Air. Bear Grylls has been on my list for a long time. I actually don't think we've ever Invited Bear or J.K. rowling or Mark Zuckerberg. Who are my next names? Those names would be amazing. I've heard Marcus turn to Jesus. I obviously don't know if that's true or not, but I think that'd be a fascinating discussion. As well as J.K. rowling, who's super controversial but claims to be a follower of Jesus. So I think that'd be a really fascinating episode. Yeah, that's my list. I mean, I got to be clear. I have a list of, I think, like, I don't know, 98 names in the pipeline or something like that. So we got a long list.

It wasn't for a lack of ideas that we. That you made this decision. Okay, so what is one final thing you'd like to say or reiterate to your listeners before you sign off, by the way?

I'll say. I'll answer that in a second, but I will circle back to what you just said because I do think it's important. We're not putting this on hiatus because we're out of content. Like Keller. I remember Keller saying, in every good endeavor, he called this faith and work topic, quote, the inexhaustible subject, end quote. I think that's right. Like, there's no way one lifetime is enough to think out and work out the implications of the gospel in your work and why you do it, what you do, how you do it, who you do it with. Which is why Lord Willing. I'm going to continue to write and create content within this faith and work vertical for the next 50 years. Just maybe not on this show. So. All right, what was the question? One. One final thing. This is my one final thing.

No pressure, but final thing that you want to reiterate for your listeners.

I. I'll tell a story first and then I'll say the thing, because this wouldn't be an episode of the Mere Christians podcast post 2018, 2019, without me making a Fred Rogers reference.

Although this is maybe the second, because. I'm sorry.

Yeah, yeah, well, yeah, exactly. Oh, my gosh. Jeez. If you're playing Mere Christians bingo at home, hopefully you have three squares for Fred. Yeah. So there's a story that we tell in our book, five Mere Christians Shameless Plug that I love. It's actually one of the most popular highlights in the Kindle book so far, where Fred, who notoriously never said a negative thing against anybody, went to church one day with a friend, and they're saying their list of the sermon, and Fred's sitting there thinking, this is the worst speech slash sermon I've ever heard in my life. Like, this guy can't string two sentences together, and he gets the end of the sermon. He looks over to his friend, and she's in tears. And she says, he, that guy, that preacher said exactly what I needed to hear. And Fred said that that moment changed his life forever. He recognized, as he put it, that the space between somebody giving their best and the space between somebody in need is holy ground. And so I've actually, for the last few years, begun every episode of this show. I don't think I've ever shared this before. Before we click record, I pray with our guest. And I say something along these lines inspired by Fred. I said, lord, I know that the space between us and our listeners is holy ground. And so would you take whatever feeble words that we speak in this episode and through the power of your holy spirit, translate them into what every listener needs to hear to spur them onto a deeper sense of your love as they do the work and a deeper commitment to your mission and your methods as they do that work. Amen. And so I would close episode the first 300 episodes of this podcast. And I'm saying first intentionally, because if we don't pick it up in this life, I can't wait to pick it up at the new Earth by reminding you that that space in between you giving your best in your job. Not the best, your best, the space between you giving Your best in the job as a landscaper, as a programmer, as a teacher, as a barista, as a composer, whatever it is. And the space between those in need that you serve through the work, that's holy ground. And because you're empowered by the Holy Spirit as you do that work, you could trust the Holy Spirit to work in ways that you won't even understand until the new Earth, to do remarkable things for God's glory and the good of others.

And with that, it is my honor to commend you, Jordan, for the.

Cancel this part. Edit this part out.

No, you need to hear it. I want to commend you for the exceptional work you do every day for the glory of God and the good of others. And I want to also close with a little story that I think reflects not just your impact, but the impact of the Holy Spirit through you, through your work. This spring, I got to go on the Redeeming youg Time Mastermind retreat, and we did a dinner at Bonton Farms outside of Dallas, and they're doing incredible work at Bonton Farms. And so we'd sit down.

Yeah.

Talk about.

Talk about. A guest I'd love to have on the show.

Yeah, yeah, they were wonderful. And we got to hear all about, really, the redemptive quest they are on in Bon Ton. And. And right before we sat down to dinner, the chef comes out, and she mentioned that she was inspired to pursue her calling as a chef because of one of your books. And we had no idea that was the case until we were all out there. You know, I'm the VP of marketing. We did. I did not know. We did not know this was not a plant.

This is not a plant.

And, you know, we're standing there hearing her story before we dive into this delicious catfish and cornbread and honey butter that she's made. And it was just this glimpse of the new Earth, because here we are feasting at this long table, everyone at the same table, outdoors, perfect weather. And it's a celebration of how God used your work to bless her and how God was using her work to bless her community. And then that was turned around and blessing all of us. And so I cannot wait to get to the new Earth and hear all the stories that are going to be told, told about the impact of your work, Jordan, but also your guests work and your listeners work that you've never even met because of what God did through this show. So on behalf of all your listeners.

Thank you, Jordan, and thank you, you guys. I. Those are going to be that's why I can't wait to do the show in the New Earth to hear I'm not interested in my story. And I mean, that'll be cool. People coming up be like, oh man, I love the podcast in the form Rage. That'd be cool. But I'm, I'm, what I'm going to dig into is like, I'm going to ask you 10 questions as we're standing in the New Tampa, the New Jerusalem, wherever we're at, about how Christ received greater glory because of your excellent stewardship of your seemingly secular but deeply sacred work. So thank you guys for being on this journey with us. Hey, I hinted at at the end, but I got to say it even more explicitly, closely, thank you, thank you. Thank you for showing up every week for 300 weeks for this podcast. I take it incredibly seriously that you have entrusted me and my team with your time, and I pray that we helped you use that time well. I pray that God did, through the power of His Holy Spirit, allow this podcast to spur you onto a deeper sense of his love, a deeper commitment to his mission and his methods in the work. I pray that this podcast has been a tremendous blessing to you. And I do pray that somehow, through some circumstances, that God allows us to pick this up again in the future. Because as I'm recording this outro for the last time, I already know I'm gonna miss it. I'm gonna miss hearing from you guys at events about which episodes of this show God used to really transform your heart and transform your work. I'm going to miss it all. I love you guys. Thank you guys so much for tuning in. I will not see you next week, but I'll see you soon in this age or the age to come. Love you guys. Sat.