Wilson Smith (Fmr. Shoe Designer at Nike)

Hey, friend. Welcome to the Mere Christians podcast. I'm Jordan Raynor. How does the gospel influence the work of mere Christians? Those of us who aren't pastors or religious professionals, but who work as podcasters, pilots and chemists? That's the question we explore every week. And today I'm posing it to Wilson Smith. He just retired as a senior design director at Nike, who who led the designs for the Air Jordan brand. No big deal. And brought shoes to market for the likes of Serena Williams, Andre Agassi, and Roger Federer. Named by Black Enterprise magazine as one of the top African American designers in the United States and has been hailed as the design Jackie Robinson for the role that he has played as the industry's first black sneaker designer. Wilson and I sat down to talk about how he came to be the first black shoe designer and how work in general and design work specifically can be a form of prayer. And we also talked about why Wilson chose Philippians 2, 3 to be printed in one of the Nike shoes that he's responsible for designing. You guys are not going to want to miss this episode with my new friend, Wilson Smith. Wilson Smith, a legend. Welcome to the Mere Christians podcast.

Thank you. Thank you so much, Jordan. I'm honored. I. I love what you're doing.

Thanks, man. Hey, what shoe are you wearing today? I gotta ask. You're a shoe dog. Come on.

I am a shoe dog. But I'm a shoe dog in my home and I'm wearing my slippers. What a sad reality. But I did wear earlier today. What did I wear? I tend to wear simple slip ons when I'm not in a important beating. And nobody, nobody.

I'm at home in my home studio. I am shoeless. But I did bring, I did bring my newest pair of custom Nikes. So I'm the cheapest person in the world. But every time I release a new book, I like to design a pair of custom Nikes based on the colors of the book cover. And so this book behind me, five Mere Christians, this is my version in shoe form and on the back standing. Isn't that great?

I hope that you wear it to like, your openings and. And you kind of let people inside on your sense of style.

1. Well, I don't have much of a sense of style, but when I speak, I show up in a black T shirt, jeans, dark jeans, and my custom Nikes. I. Hey, so you, you were at Nike for 41, 41 years, yeah. Crazy.

I had no idea when I started out, honestly, I even felt at the time I was praying about the journey and I felt like the Lord was almost gonna say I was just gonn for a limited point of time. But so it, it kind of helped me through the whole 41 years to think well I may be leaving any minute and it kind of happened. But, but you know, hey, it's, it's relatively limited to eternity. So I guess that's right. It's limited.

I like that you started there in the early 80s in corporate interior design, designing shoe rooms, stores, offices, etc. How did you eventually come to design shoes? What's the story there?

Well, you're right. If anybody's seen the movie aired, I just referenced it because, because it's been recent and it's a, it's a great movie. The great, it's a very good movie. A lot of great truths in it. But anyway, the movie Air was about the era that I joined the company. It's kind of, it's depicting that kind of beginning with Michael Jordan. And so I came in at the end of 83, so that would have been right before it. The vibe of the movie is so on point and especially being a corporate interior designer. When I looked, I was looking around the peripheral of the, of the video of the movie and I thought man, that looks just like what we were doing. So, so captured it. Well, I was honored because I studied architecture and I came out of school at University of Oregon and I felt. And I worked for a while, but I was going to be, you know, my goal was to be the next amazing architect. Like sometimes I say Frank Lloyd Black. Yeah, sure, yeah, that was kind of, that was kind of my, that was my goal. That was my goal. But I worked for a while for a major architecture firm in Portland and then there was recession and I kept, I would get laid off and rehired. Laid off. And so then my new roommate said, hey, Nike was hiring someone to do like stores and, and layouts of offices. And I thought, oh great, if I go to work for the client, maybe I don't get laid off as much as the firm. So, so I went to our. And the great thing was I went to Nike. Well, I was. Here's the blessed providence of the Lord. I First person I meet and work for Nike is a guy named Tinker Hatfield who ultimately ends up being the shoe guru, quote unquote of the industry as he come. But he's the corporate architect at the time so he hires me to do, to do, to assist him in architecture. Eventually I got a job there after about 15 months of bug in him. But it was great. But then the interesting thing was, all of a sudden we went through what they called the sneaker wars, which I doubt if many people you may remember. You're probably just a kid. When that was happening.

I was a kid. But I've actually read up on this because I'm fascinated by the corporate history of Nike and Shoe Dog and all this stuff. So I've read on the. I've read about the sneaker wars.

So the sneaker wars was really kind of centered around, say, Reebok and Nike. Reebok had kind of made this amazing, cute women's aerobic shoe. And I'm not going to go too deep into. But regardless, the way the shoes express themselves became more paramount. And you have, like, the Jordans, which were more about the athlete and other expressions. So we went through a time of recession where we were laying off some of our company. We're kind of shrinking the company. And they called me to the back room and I thought, oh, this is it. I was walking the plane because my coworker had just lost her job. And they said to me, how would you like to design shoes? And I said, I always want to do that. I had never even really thought of it, but it was one of those kinds of kind of. It was because shoes weren't really designed at the time. Yeah. And so. And so anyway, so I was like, okay, great. Yes, shoe design. And honestly, I'd gone home that night going, you know, lord, what has happened to my career? I mean, because I'm thinking now I'm designing shoes. I mean, I was going to be architect. And I think now I'm doing shoes. I did not. And so you see, in today's vernacular, whatever. Shoes. The cool thing. But at that time, that was not it.

It sounded crazy.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's amazing how. Yeah, right. But that's how things evolve. I mean, we're so. I mean, it's a different. So now I'm like going, wow. You know, and the Lord was the one who chose to. You know, he promotes one thing and puts down another. And he's the one who shines a light on the industry. So now. Now we watch movies about Michael Jordan being signed and saying that. And that was not the deal back then. Yeah. One of the fun. They'll be real quick in these stories. One of the things. For me, the day that Michael first came to the headquarters, I remember a memo kind of went out and I was just there probably six months in maybe.

Yeah.

Working downstairs and a Memo came out and it said, you know, that Michael Jordan was going to be coming upstairs. And so we invited all the company to come out and kind of welcome him when he comes to the visit.

Yeah.

And I remember I looked at him, I was kind of Michael Jordan. I thought, oh, he was. He was that guy in the Olympics, you know, that was my mind. My mind goes, yeah, yeah, yeah. So when it was like one, one o' clock in the afternoon or so and everybody kind of got up to go upstairs, like, I've got so much work to do, I stayed downstairs and worked. I did not even. I did not even go up. So I.

That's hilarious.

Moment.

You missed the moment.

I missed the moment. So sometimes you gotta trust. But honestly, at that time, I did not feel, you know, now I have had the joy of down the road working with Mr. Jordan and other things. But. But that was the first moment.

Yeah, well, you, yeah, you eventually became senior designer on the Jordan brand. And I think I read about this in this article, hailing you as, quote, the design Jackie Robinson, end quote, given that you were the industry's first black sneaker designer. Did you know that?

Right.

Nike said, hey, Wilson, come design some shoes. Did you find that later on? What's the story there?

Well, you know, okay, so I saw that, that article in Footwear News or whatever said that, and I was like, quite honored. You know, I mean, imagine if you're, like, reading you. Wow, okay. That's quite, quite the comment. Because I think of myself, you know, I think of Jackie Robinson and all that he. All the racial hurdles that he handled and all of what, you know, his racial slurs, death threats, denied basic services as he would travel around, especially in the South. And so all that Jackie Ross went through, I'm thinking I'm the first. I'm the Jackie Robinson of the shoe designers.

I mean, because that's not your story. Is that what you're saying?

Well, what I'm saying is that phrase, even though it's true, even though I was the first black designer, and all of us, a lot of times can recognize that we're maybe the first. Maybe in the first Christian in a context, but we can recognize that we're a first something. And so it's an opportunity to take. Understand the notion of first. Yes, I am the first black designer in the, in the footwear industry. And I'm. I'm honored by that. I'm honored that that actually means something. Because once again, the Lord has shined Shined the light on that industry to make that matter and has given me a platform now that I have an opportunity to, to share my testimony or even to talk to you. I mean, just so that's a, that's an honor. So what am I saying? So it is, it is the truth, but all I say is that people weren't throwing Twinkies at me while I was correct. You know, just like, hey, we need.

Someone to design great shoes.

And you're a designer.

Go design some shoes.

You know, the, the fun, the fun thing is my boss is a guy, Tinker Hatfield, who a lot of the, the audience may know. Tinker being a great architect or a very great architect. And then my background in architecture. I remember my, my buddy, my pastor friend down to Eugene when he had heard, oh wow, Tinker and Wilson are starting to design shoes. He says, I think sneakers are going to start getting complicated, you know. Yeah, sure enough, you know, these architects get a hold of it. It's like, oh man, this shoe needs to speak to this and speak to that and it needs to really respond. All these different movements and next thing you know you got a sneaker for this or that or the other. And you know, shoes got a little complicated.

That's good. Hey, I'm curious, Wilson, what do you now know experientially about your heavenly father that you don't think you would know had it not been for him calling you to be a pioneer in your field?

Oh, how. What an awesome question. Faithfulness is maybe the number one thing that I think I know that I've been able to grow into over years of all sorts of levels of engagement. And so faithfulness definitely speaks to me. You know, it's like the visions that say my mom or my dad had my mom or whatever about hey, you're special and you're going to be, you know, and, and she wanted me to be an architect because architects make lots of money. And that was kind of the, kind of her, her call on my life. When she saw me as a five year old kid who couldn't stop drawing and, and being. She saw me be the trajectory to being a starving artist. She's like, hey, you should become an architect, blah, blah. Yeah.

And she one artist that makes money. Yeah, yeah, right.

Yeah, right. The one, the one artist that makes money. Money. Exactly. So that, so that's, that was mom's vision. And so, hey, you know, the Lord is faithful. And so I was like, okay, I'll be an architect. And honestly, when I, when I was told to design shoes, I, that's the failure I felt first was, oh, no, I'm not that architect that mom wanted me to be, you know, yet totally fulfilled what I think her essence of what she was feeling called to steer her son. So God's faithfulness and that kind of stuff, and, and his faithfulness to really lead us. It's like, I think, do I always feel a voice or hear a voice in the moves of life? Not necessarily, but I do get kind of a. An unction when it matters. And it's almost like a rudder on a ship or something. It's like, you know, and then. And so. So I kind of get. I get these kind of directional rudders that I think will happen on occasion. And. And there are times all throughout my career that I felt the Lord's unction. Even when I recently offloaded from full time Nike Focus, which, you know, which was at the end of January just a couple months ago, that wasn't necessarily a big do it, just do it. That wasn't a big do it for me.

But.

But I did feel I had done some counseling with a. With a good friend who was kind of a little bit of a life coach, and I felt that I wanted to control my narrative. A. I wanted to. I wanted to make sure, you know, that I'm going the right way. And I thought the Lord spoke through all of that. And so when I ultimately made that decision, which wasn't a clear voice per se, but it definitely, I believe, was from the Lord, because I've had nothing but fabulous doors open that I would. Yeah. Would never have been opened if I was still working there three months later.

Go back to sneakers themselves. I'm curious if you think that God delighted in watching you design sneakers throughout your career? Spoiler alert. I think he did. But why, like, if you agree how. How would you put into your own words why you think God delights in watching his children make sneakers?

That's awesome. So in my. In my guts, I grew up, you know, I grew up in, what, 90s? And so I hear that then that. Charities, Chariots of Fire. So I. So I hear, you know, he. He made me. He made me fast. I mean, what say, you know, and.

When I run, I feel his pleasure. I love it.

Yeah, when I. Yeah, when I run, I feel his pleasure. Thank you. That was the quote. And so that's what I feel like in all of the creative endeavors that I've been able to do, I feel the Lord has made me creative. He's. And that's part of what I get to do. I mean, Maybe. Maybe to give a shout out. You know, one of my favorite inspirational creatives might be Bono or somebody. Just in terms of what God uniquely created him to do and to be.

And.

And what an interesting role I think, that he and his music has played over the years to a lot of people and kind of almost welcoming in so much at Brett, you know. Hey, and let me give a little shout out to Bono while I'm on it. One time I. I remember I got a DVD of his a long time ago from a. Whatever from. From a concert. And. And in the background at the start of the streets have. Where the streets have no name at the start of the song, you know, Edge is doing his really great guitar piece. Bono. Softly, lowly. And you can't even hear it. Harley. But he says all. All that really matters is that the people praise your name. All that really matters is the people praise your name. He says that over and over while people are screaming. And Edge is doing his metal, incredible guitar. You know, I just thought that. But. But I heard it and I've played it for friends going, isn't this. You know, you can hear it. And so all. But all of you saying is, maybe that's what I would say about designing sneakers. All that really matters is that people phrase your name. I mean, so good. In some ways, that's the same vibe. So that's the creative thing.

That's so, so good. Bono is near the top of our list of people we'd love to have on this show. I think he's deeply thought about how his faith is influencing his work. Yeah, I think about you, man. Wilson. I'm trying to imagine you, you know, 40 years at Nike. I think God delights in watching you design these shoes because you're a child, first and foremost. Right? And secondly, because he's the creator God who called us to create in his image for the very beginning of the story.

And the beginning God created. You know, it's like if you want to put together one of those sentences, you know, noun, verb. I mean, in the beginning, God created. I mean, that's. And then he, you know, and then he made us in his image. And I really think the creative piece is huge. I felt his pleasure designing, and I feel that design is a form of prayer. I mean, it's, It's.

Tell me more about that. Yes. Come on.

It's an interesting. As you design, you're almost. And this is all creatives, because you can listen to them. They all. You know, Michael Jackson talked about it a lot of People talk about, hey, the, the creator is working through me at 2am and I need to be working on this riff, you know, right now. And so, so you feel his pleasure, you sense his direction. And so many times for me, honestly, on some of my best designs, I have been lost in worship, sketching for that initial thing because you got to kind of get this initial thing, that initial spark of a drawing that all of a sudden people go, all of a sudden you go, that's it, that's it. And the amazing thing about it is, is I'll do a page of sparks. I'll do a page of sparks and I'll show it to the marketing lead and developer or whatever afterwards. But I know the one that is the one that I believe is it. And everybody goes to that one because it. So it speaks. But it's. But. And I know that many times, many times I've been lost in worship when I've been designing. And also the next thing, look, there it is. I mean, and I, I could, I could show you pictures of shoes. I've got some of those sketches still around that were the revelation of the spirit when it came to design, when.

It came to I love this and there's nothing better than that's that that's it moment. I felt that in writing lines in books, coming up with frameworks, writing my kids books. I get that. What makes that moment worship? Because Christian and non Christian have that that's it moment. That eureka moment. What, what, what turns that into worship? Is it simply the acknowledgment of God as the source of that creative spark? Talk more about this.

Yeah, that's interesting. I would say that, like I say it's a good design is a form of prayer. I mean, I heard, yeah, I heard another expression. Although this is a different expression, but good architecture is like frozen music. Okay, well, that's, that's one thing. Okay, I won't go there. But good design being a form of prayer is. You're kind of, you're drawing, you're kind of creating, and all of a sudden you just kind of, okay, I'll, I'll follow that. I'll follow. And you're literally following the, the hand of the spirit on a page. When you're working on it, you're liter. You're getting clarity and you're getting clarifications and insights. And that's, that is very much a prayer, you know, And I think so. So I think that God is involved in our creative endeavors. I think he gave edge the Groove on. On where? I mean, I just think. I think that we're following create creative move because. Because the Lord. I think the Lord made us curious. He made us lovers of the new and the exciting and maybe that you take us to a different place. And I think that. And so. So. And oftentimes design takes what has been done and says, what about this? You know, a little bit different place. And jazz. Jazz has been, or hip hop even, have been wonderful examples of. Of taking, you know, jazz takes big band and twists it or. Or hip hop takes remixes it, you know, and so. So you're basically. So music is a great example of. Of this. And I think great design kind of builds on where we're at as humans to keep us curious and excited and engaged. And it's creative and God is creative. And so it all builds on itself. So I see the Lord involved in all of that.

It's good. Speaking of good design, I read in this interview you did. You said, quote, good design performs for people. I love the way you said that. Good design solves problems. It's not just beautiful, it solves problems. End quote. And I love this on both beauty and function, because I think all throughout scripture we see God creating with both beauty and function.

Right.

Like, culture tends to celebrate that functional part, utility. And what is the purpose of this thing is what does it do? But what does it mean to you that God also cares about beauty, that beauty in and of itself has value?

You know what? I. And Jordan, I love that. I love that question. I would say it's interesting to me. I think some people lay on the beauty side or some people lay on the performance side. Yeah, they're almost. They're almost left and right. But I won't go. Yeah, but there's two.

There's two ditches, right? They're. They're on two extremes.

Yeah, extremes. But then if you. And what I've heard, for example, people even say your brain is left and right, you know, and people say that, you know, the right brain is the creative and the left brain is the more. The functional or whatever, the right brain, people that can. The more creative people who think of structure and can see the creative structure or the. Or the more, you know, driven people who are driven by. By function that can then engage it in a beautiful way or whatever.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's. It's the mixture. It's the blending of the two that are the most successful businessmen, the most successful people on the planet. And so, you know, there's a. There's Intention behind all of the masterworks of Beethoven or MJ or whoever, there's intention in all of this stuff. It could be either mj. I'm not gonna. I don't have to specify which MJ I'm talking about there. But there's intention. There's intention in on all of their. In all their functional beauty. Yeah, I think that now architecture said form follows function. I mean, that was the first. The first one of the great. What would you call it? Mies van der Rohe? And I'm not sure, just. Just the whole thinking of the Bauhaus was form, function in architecture. But in the, you know, I would say that that design thinking is. Is all about that kind of thinking. And in some ways, at Nike, we would kind of. The form would take on. The form would kind of elaborate on the function. It would kind of express the function or it kind of takes. Takes it to the. It really adds beauty and levity and life and, you know, nice air, you know. Yeah, it brings. It brings. Because the notion and air. For example, you know, that Bill. Bill Bowerman, the Nike founder, along with Phil Knight, who's a legendary track coach at University of Oregon, he was trying to help his. His runners function and perform better around the track. And so, so he would, you know, working on the. The rubber compounds and tracks as track surfaces were changing, and he's working on all this stuff. But he also was trying to make the shoe as light as possible. And if the shoe could cross the finish line and fall apart after a cross, fine. You know, that was kind of his perception of. Of what he needed for performance. Well, well, in the same way that where. That's where air became a thing at night. Because if you could bring air into some parts of the heaviest parts of the shoe, which is generally under the foot, where you're trying to. Where you're basically trying to kind of, you know, kind of have the body come in contact with the earth. And you need the most structure and the most form. So if you can add air to that midsole or whatever that's about. That is a. That's. That's light and that's lighter. And people think, hey, they intuitively get it. So Nike air became a thing and so. And so. And then. And that was part of my joy. One of probably my most, arguably most famous shoe would have been the. The more up tempos or air. More up tempo, which writes the word air as big as a can on the side of the shoe. Yeah, part of that was. Part of that was Blowing up that whole notion of people air and what that means.

I love that insight. I don't think I've ever thought about that way that, yeah, the most successful people, the most successful brands, the most successful products don't fall into either digit beauty or function. They combine them. I think the air is a beautiful example of that. Right. And it makes sense if we are made in the image of a God who creates with beauty and function, that the most successful products, the. The most neighbor loving products would follow that same formula.

Right? Exactly. I mean, you look at every tree and not only are the leaves and the structure incredible, there's no two of them that are alike on the whole planet. And you know, it's just, it's unbelievable, the creative, you know, and it's awesome that we could see this. But who knows? There could be multiple amazing things going on throughout the universe that none of us have ever seen.

That's right.

Totally just did it, you know. Yeah.

If you thought about God's creative character throughout the years, I'm curious if it's led you to fight harder for originality.

No.

Knowing that the source of every original idea, every creative, truly creative idea is at work within you, has that made you, I guess, have a greater sense of faith and belief that you can come up with more original ideas because that Holy Spirit is working through you. Does that make sense?

Right? It does make sense. Okay. What I would say to that, and you know, the scripture that kind of comes to mind is when Apostle Paul says in Acts. I think it's Paul. This is Acts. He says, I become all things to all men in the hope that I might save some. I think he's saying that Paul said that.

I'm not sure if it was an Acts, but yeah, he said.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Okay. It may not have been an Acts. Not sure, I think. But anyway, what I like about that scripture is a lot of times it's not so much that you create the most amazing work of art that is so phenomenal that maybe no one can relate to it. But you, you have a target in a sense. You have a, you have a person you're talking to and you need to hit it in that zone. You need to go, you need to, you need to go somewhere in that zone. For example, I mentioned, I mentioned the air, more of Temple. I would almost get up and go across the room and get a. Get the shoe.

Grab it.

Yeah.

Come on.

Okay.

Oh my gosh, I wish you guys could see this. Wilson is running across the room. I hope we don't cut this. He's going into his dope shoe case.

Yeah, my shoe. You're so hilarious.

This is amazing.

Okay. This shoe, the air. More up tempo. So, so anyway, when I worked on this, the marketing director said to me, he said, hey, you know, write the word air as big as you can on the side of a shoe. And I was like, oh, really? Okay. And so at the time, I realized we couldn't do a full length airbag, like the Vapor Max or whatever back then. We could just do a heel airbag, a four foot airbag with two windows and a midfoot bag. And so it's like, I knew we could do that. And so I was just kind of sketching a little bit and then I realized that, that you, the shoe, if you, you could write the letters, you know, in two directions and the A and the R the same letter, they line up with the airbags. Yeah, well, that's, well, that's got to be as big. You know, it's got forefoot, midfoot, heel support. That's got to be about as big as you could ride it on the side of a sh. And so, and honestly, that was probably 30 minutes of sketching. Yeah, but, but, but it was kind of, you know. And so anyways, I thought, well, gee, I thought the next day I got to show this to Tinker Hatfield, the great savant guru of the industry. And so who is my boss and my man, Our design genius. And so I, so I show it to, I showed that. I take it and I showed the Tinker. I say the sketches. I said, so what do you think? And Tinker goes, he goes, well, number one, number one, it's bad design. And he says, number two, you'll sell millions. But I, but I love, I love that take because it's, because to me, it's not so much, you know, I think, I think it shows how good he is at getting something. And, and no, it isn't the most profound. It's not Michelangelo. It's. It's not even Picasso. It is what it is. But, but will relate to the person out there that's good. Who, who gets air. And you know, the funny thing was, I remember down the road, even Sales, the Salesforce, this one guy from the Salesforce, they wrote back a whole bunch of comments about the shoe. Real positive comments. And one guy wrote, man, I think that was the best, most profound design that I've ever, that I've ever seen. You know, I'm like, okay, maybe for you, but the reality is, you know, Profundity and art is. Is in the eye of beholder.

I love it.

Yes, I endorse great work, but I endorse connecting to target. I endorse becoming all things, all men. I endure connecting to your end user.

It's good. Hey, speaking of Paul, you had this TEDx talk about 10 years ago. That's terrific. You probably don't remember anything you said in it, but I'm going to remind you of something.

I remember I was quite tired before I left the whole night before trying to memorize it.

That's funny. That's funny. Well, you ended it with Paul's words to Timothy in first Timothy 4:12, where he's telling Timothy, do not let anyone despise your youth. Do you remember why you chose that verse? What does that passage meant to you in your career? Wilson.

Oh, man, that's. That's cool. Gosh, thanks for paying attention to my world and my journey. You know, when I did that, honestly, part of it was that I was speaking. It was a tedxu, Oregon as I was speaking down at U of O. And I was talking, you know, to a, a crowd that were students. Students and key professors. And so, and so I wanted to kind of encourage them as well. And, and I, and I wanted them to realize, hey, great ideas come out of this place, including the company that I work for.

Exactly.

So. So I was. So the notion of not despising your youth, I mean, I, I felt I was journeying through that literally doing a TED Talk because I was like, you know, I'm trying to, I'm trying to be as profound as all this stuff that I've seen online. But I also wanted to bring scripture into, into them because I don't often hear too many scriptures and TED talks. I mean, to be honest. And so that was part, that was part of the take. And I do think that when it comes to, when it comes to almost anything, if I'm the first black designer, if I'm the youngest designer, if I'm a female or, or whatever is kind of the lesser perceived. Do not despise the origins of God's call on your life. Come on, you know, step, step out into the thing that God has called you to do, no matter what, you know. And so, so that's what I, where I think I identify with. And I was trying to relate maybe to the people in the room. But, but the second thing I would say was I actually later got to do another, whatever, another TEDx. It was not, it was not. It was a. What they call a TedX salon, which I thought was better. I should actually send you that because that was. I mean, that, that one's not online, but, but, but it's Tedxelon there. I referenced. This was in 2018, I think I referenced the scripture Philippians 3, Philippians 2, 3, which is consider others more significant than yourselves.

It's one of the passages I've talked about the most on this podcast. Yeah.

Oh, awesome. Really, man? Well, that is the scripture that I was referencing. And actually this was a, A version of the more up tempo they did that told my story. And it actually, I don't know if this is the. Yeah. If this is the shoe, you maybe can't see it, but on the inside that scripture is written on the.

Yes.

And so it's pretty, it's pretty fun. And so this one, I was honored because they asked me in the process of making the shoe design. They said, they said, well, you know what? Give us a quote that we can put in this unit. I thought a quote. And right then. And I thought, well, you know, I remember I did that TED quote. And I did, I flashed it, I said, what about this quote? And they said, okay. So they put that in the shoe. And the cool thing was afterwards, you know, when the shoe was, was first coming out, people were like, oh, you know, who's. What's this Nike shoe with scriptures in it? You know, because it didn't say Philippians two, three, but people.

Yeah, sure.

And the fun thing to me is, hey, I'm having people stand on the word. You know, that's what that's.

Come on. That's so good.

So, so anyway, yeah, and I think it was. And now that's become another for me. Honestly, Jordan, I think that's almost become a stronger life verse in terms of, of wanting to encourage people to not be about themselves or just flaunting themselves as we all kind of do on social media, media and everywhere. You know, kind of like being the coolest but, but, but really about considering others more significant than yourselves and really the notion of empathy and the opportunity of really thinking about others and thinking and, and projecting into that and then allowing. Allowing that to be what you're about and in humility, you know, thoughts that I think sadly our culture does not promote right now. And, and so, so there's an opportunity in that.

Amen.

All of us.

And Christ is the example, which is exactly what Paul's talking about in Philippians 2. We. We say we want to image Christ at work, brother, go memorize Philippians 2.

Oh, no doubt, man. Who. Who. Who in the form of God, did not see it as something to be, you know, equality.

Hold on. Let's preach the word. Let's do it.

Yeah, brother, you got. Yeah, you go for it. You hold it up. Okay, you're saying, starting.

Starting in verse three, do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain. Can see rather in humility. Value others above yourselves. Not looking to your own interests.

Yeah.

But each of you, to the interests of others in your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus, who, being in the very nature, God did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage. Rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a serpent.

Amen, brother. What I love is, even when I chose that particular scripture, I didn't think of it in the context that you just brought forth.

Yeah.

I didn't continue it. You know, and you're right. It continues just like Psalms 22 continues from. From what Jesus accomplished on the cross when he said, you know, my God, my God, why have thou forsaken me? Or what? I mean, that. That. That you really have to consider the whole chapter. You don't just stop at that first verse, man, in the same way. I. I appreciate what you just said because there is more to that, and it's expressed through Christ. That's. That's awesome.

Yeah. But, man, can I encourage you? That verse was printed in all these Nike shoes. Yeah.

Yes, it was.

Even without Philippians 2, 3 being explicitly referenced. Here's the deal, though. People heard the word.

Yes, they heard the word. And you know what else? Not to interrupt. But. But when. When. When the. When the shoe first started getting talked about, they. They. They would create this blog or whatever would. I mean, when it started being talked about, they'd say, I want to learn more about this shoe that Nike's putting out and why. And the title said. And why does it include a scripture verse? I mean, it's like people knew it was a scripture. People knew before they knew it was about me. I mean, people knew. People knew. People knew this. Knew this shoe, and it led with the word and I. And. And even though they didn't write Philippians, people knew.

Yeah.

So, you know, it shows that God just shows up. You don't need.

I love it, man. I love it, man. I love it so much. All right, Wilson, four questions. We wrap up every episode with real quick. Number one, look ahead to the new Earth. Scripture is very clear that we will spend eternity on the new Earth with Christ. Where we will have work to do, free from the curse of sin. What job would you love for God to give you to do? Do you want to keep designing shoes?

Oh, well, you know, I actually I. I tend to go for my more for my inspirations around architecture. So I would almost rather go and design, you know, help him with his mansion designs. Oh man, everybody. Or maybe that sounds amazing mansion remodels. Not that you would ever need a remodel. I'm sure that his mansions need no help. But, but you know, I would, I would probably be excited about some of the creative thing. I also, I've also often. This is so bad. I've also often wondered, hey Lord, can, can I. Can I give you some help with the marriage supper of the lamb menu? And, and let me pull out my favorite bag of potato chips. I mean I would, I would like, I would like a job of, of picking out some of these foods that made me fat that have maybe not been so, so great here on earth, but could maybe.

Yeah. In resurrected bodies of glorified bodies. Yeah. Eat all the potato chips.

I love it, man. Caloric sound.

Wilson, what if we opened up your Amazon order history? Which books would we see you buying over and over and over again to give away to friends? Okay, give me business books, Christian living books, whatever.

Right? Okay, that's really cool question. So a lot of my Amazon, I'm a very much an audiobook guy. I've really, since I could do audiobooks, I'm like yay. So, so I'm so. I'm so.

Yes.

Every. So every time I go for a walk, every time I do anything, I'm listening to my audiobook. And honestly, this may sound really lame, but lately I have been recommending a couple great books. Not to make a U2 theme, but. But the Bono book Surrender is phenomenal.

Okay, so I haven't read it yet. It's been on my list for a while. Sell me on this book because I'm not, not a huge YouTube fan. Right. So I'm not super interested in you too. But I love the biographies and memoirs of world class A creators. Is that what this is?

Brother, You've nailed it, Jordan. I mean as much as you lean in that direction, I think you would love this because, because he speaks from a God centered creative force that's powerful. And I honestly, I'd recommend my little audio recommendation because Bono himself reads it. Yeah. Yeah, I think you can. The artistry, especially from a musician. I'd say Bono's book Quest Love did A book that was amazing. Once again, they're both musical artists, so they. They understand the studio and they understand possibilities and what you can do and nuance. Nuance of voice. So, you know, those books are amazing. So I. So I recommend those. There was a recent. Recent book I wrote on the. I listened to another music book written on the Wonder of Stevie, which is really fun, and it's called the Wonder of Stevie, and it actually covers a.5 or so podcasts that were around kind of his zenith of. Of albums that were, you know, five or so. Five to seven albums that were kind of at the zenith of his career. So, so I. So I highly recommend. So, you know, those are just. I don't want to be so narrow. That's good music.

No, it's good, man. Did you read 12 notes by quincy Jones?

I have not, but that's fantastic.

It's great. It's. It's. Quincy, these 12 notes on life and creativity, I'm gonna send you. I'm gonna send you an audiobook, please.

Oh, thank you. Thank you. I'll probably listen to it.

It's really, really great. And then Shoe Dog. Shoe Dog's my answer to that question. I've given Shoe Dog away to so many people.

Oh, man, that is so. I think it's great. And I think Mr. Knight is really told the story well, and it takes. You know, I've been trying to write a book, and. And. And my. My thinking evolves so much that I keep rewriting it. So it's just tough. But it's a tough thing. It's a tough thing, but you've done it. So I want.

I've done it. I've done it. Uk If. If this fool can do it. Wilson. You can do Wilson. Who would you want to hear on this podcast most talking about how their faith has shaped the work that they do in the world? Maybe somebody else at Nike. Maybe somebody else in the industry. Maybe musician or architect.

I'll give you a shout out of an awesome guy, a friend of mine, a guy named Toby Hatfield. Toby Hatfield is actually. I don't even know him, but Toby. Toby.

I do know him.

You know Toby. So.

Okay. I can't believe we're, like, just realizing this live. Toby has been a fan of mine for a long time. You'll love the story.

Wow.

I didn't know this. I signed a book deal with Toby's son Kyle.

Yeah.

Harvest House, and Kyle's hanging out with his dad. Oh, I'm really excited about this author. I just signed. It's he writes about blah, blah. And Toby's like, are you talking about Jordan Rayner? Did you just sign Jordan Rayner? He was so excited. So Toby and I are now connected.

Yeah. So good. I mean, brother, this is a full. This is a full circle beyond circle. Because I never even thought. And as you said it, I just thought, you know, Toby. Toby's so on point. They brought Toby over to Hillsong in Australia to inspire the worship. I mean, inspire the worship team. You know, he's on there. He is a great God fearing, humble. I mean, talk about Philippians too. That, that's Toby Hatfield and he's got.

A big job at Nike. What's his. What's his job at Nike?

Toby is a lead innovator and he. He's a lead innovator and I'll just call it that. I don't know what his actual title is.

Yeah, sure.

I know that he is basically behind Nike Free, which is almost a spiritual thought because Nike Free, to me, where Nike Free is fascinating. Was that kind of came at the beginning around 2004, was when Free really came out. 2004 Olympic, I think. Yeah, around 2004. But part, but part of what was great about free was it was. It's the whole idea of. As opposed to maybe shoes becoming more and more and more stacked with more and more stuff. Free was about simplify it. Slice up the bottom and allow the foot to be the foot and kind of like getting at God's already creative. He's already done all you need. It just. You need a. You almost need to protect the foot from the surfaces that we've created. More pinion runners are running barefoot. So you almost need to protect the foot with stuff. So free as a way of just barely protecting your foot but allowing the foot to work in the environment. Toby invented free. I mean, Toby is the energy behind free. Toby has Bowerman thinking he gets it. Toby loves Jesus beyond anything. And now, now I. And, and now I'm like going. And Toby is Tinker's younger brother. And the amazing Tinker is the Tinker.

Oh, my God. My gosh.

Okay. Tinker Hatfield. Is this, you know, the savant?

I've heard of Tinker.

Yeah. Well, Tinker, the Tinker is the one that everybody, you know, they celebrated his birthday recently because it was. Because it was Tinker after Phil's birthday and he was blowing up in social media just because of all the amazing shoes he's done. He did on so many Air Jordans and everything else. Yeah, he's brilliant. Well, But Toby is the unsung, brilliant, deeper, I mean, deep thinking brother in Christ. I mean.

Oh, dude. All right, I gotta talk to Toby. We've exchanged some emails. We gotta have him on the show.

That's great. Would be awesome.

Wilson, you get the last word here. You're talking this global audience of believers who are doing a bunch of different things vocationally. I know we got some listeners at Nike, we got listeners at Amazon. We've got baristas and entrepreneurs. What's one final thing you'd want to leave with those believers?

To always be still and know that I am God. I think that's the most. One of my richest scriptures in life. You know, sure, I would love to even articulate my prayers, but before I do too much of that, I need to still and know. It's like I need to just. I need to just be quiet and pray about it. And, you know, I may even get a revelation from the Holy Spirit. And then my next. Next question is, okay, Lord, what do you want me to do with that? Yeah, be still and know. I just say, design, wherever you're at, whatever you're doing, that is the best thing we can do often. One of my favorite stories I heard, and I'm not sure how true this is because I heard this, but I love the way it speaks, so. So we could take it, you know, we can maybe confirm it online or something. I heard the story that Mother Teresa, they asked her once, Mother Teresa, because she prays extensively. They asked her, you've been known to pray up to four hours a day. I mean, what. What are you praying about? What are you praying about? And she says, well, you know, I mostly just listen, you know, that's what she said. And then they said, wow, wow. They're like, well, well, then what do you hear? And she says, oh, he mostly just listens too, you know, and. And, you know, I. I like that thought because it's like, I think a lot of times there's so much answers can come from just being still and trusting and then, you know, allowing the Lord to. To move through you or waiting until he does or whatever. But. But regardless, I think it's. I think be still and know that I am God is what I would say to everybody. Everything. Because, boy, I tell you, I was around a friend the other day who was trying. He's just. He's trying to transition from. From being a. A great football superstar to playing, extending his college career and, and going and going and going. And now he's really got a transition into a career. And, and he's. All his life has been about football. And he. He approached me, he was like, he was going on and on and on and on about all this stuff that he. That he wanted to do. And I was like, brother, I was like, you know, yeah, you just need to be still.

It's good.

Just be still and let the Lord speak into this and help, help. Let the Lord kind of tell you, tell us what to do. Just at least give him time, you know, just kind of. Because part of it is our own faith in. In our stuff, as opposed to faith in God.

It's good, man. That's a great word to end on for this audience of ambitious Christian professionals. Hey, Wilson, I want to commend you, man, for the exceptional work you've done throughout your career for the glory of God and the good of others. And thank you for reminding us today that, man, that design specifically and work in general can be a form of prayer, to be a form of communing and working with the creator. God. Hey, where's the best place for people to keep up with your work if they want to do that? Wilson?

Oh, man, what a great. Well, I've got an IG and my IG shoe. A texture S H O E I T E C T U R E so shua texture.

Yeah, man, that tracks. That's the perfect IG handle for Wilson Smith. Wilson, man, thanks for hanging out with us today.

Thank you so much, George. Okay, brother. Bless you.

Hey, quick shout out to former guest here on the Mere Christians podcast, Bobo Beck, for recommending Wilson Smith to us as a guest. If you've got somebody that you've would love to hear on this show, even somebody you don't know, let us know right now@jordan rayner.com contact. Guys, thank you so much for listening. I'll see you next week.