Synthetic Humanoids, Quantum Chip Breakthrough, Nikola is Cooked, Salesforce vs Microsoft

Welcome to Technology Brothers, the number one live show in tech. We are live from the temple of technology, the fortress of finance, the capital of capital. Today is Thursday, February 20, 2025, and this show starts now. We got a great show for you all today. We're breaking down some new humanoid robots. They're not terrifying at all. They're absolutely horrific out of a horror movie. We're breaking down Satya Nadella. He went on the Dwarkesh Patel podcast, was a fantastic breakdown. He, he also announced a new quantum computing unit. From there. We're breaking that down. We're going into the history of Nikola, the trucking company, the electric truck company that just went bankrupt today, and telling you the whole history of that company. And then we're gonna break down the timeline, run through some posts on X, give you a bunch of fun hot takes. We're discussing seed stage vc, Google, AI agents, the new Apple iPhone launch. A bunch of good stuff for you guys. So stay, stay tuned. Thanks.

And should we go through some of the posts?

Yeah, I mean, so they, they follow it up and they do give a little bit of explanation here. They say the protoclone is a faceless, anatomically accurate synthetic human with over 200 degrees of freedom, over 1,000 myofibers and 500 sensors. And so I think that, you know, whether or not you think complete replication of the human is important in robotics context, there's a lot of questions about like, hey, do we even need to give them legs? Like maybe if they're running around a factory digging, like, throw wheels on them.

The unitary one that's like dog shaped.

Yep.

Will just be flipped, but it also.

Has wheels and it can do all these things. It can stand up, but then it can go four legged. So I think, I think like, if you're starting from scratch, thinking first principles, you would actually kind of refactor some of the problems from a human and give it more arms or less arms, depending on what the job is.

I don't know, don't want to be, you know, don't want to be ableist full of hubris, but maybe we are perfect. We might be goaded.

We might be goaded. Yeah. The bipedal.

The bipedal.

The bipedal form factor.

It did evolve over millions of years, allegedly.

Yeah. Yeah.

Well, scientists said.

Let's go to the bro. Scientists. Well, let's go to Samoyed online. Samoyed says, yep, boss, the promo video is going great. I got the twitching humanoid robot strung up on a meat hook and flickering lights. I Love it. It's amazing.

I mean, it's working exactly as intended. This got 70k likes and another 2 million views.

Oh my God. This did get another 70k likes. So, yeah, a lot of these views have to be driven by quote tweets because it's so easy to go viral.

20 million views is a lot of quote tweets. Tough to do.

Fantastic. And then Atlas, good friend of the show, chimes in, says terrible quad insertions and the delts are hardly capped. Midsection also looks to be in poor condition. And I actually laughed out loud at this. I think it's so funny. Just.

Yeah, we need to be so. So Alice is absolutely right. You need to be evaluating humanoid robots as though they were going for their IFBB pro card.

Yes, you know, exactly.

These. Presumably there will be humanoid bodybuilding, weightlifting, powerlifting, Olympic weightlifting competitions. And it's important to like put them, you know, you know, really try to try to put them up against the best humans.

This isn't close to Sam Sulek by any means.

Yeah, I, Yeah, even opposite shade. I'd like to see them give the clone a spray tan. Give him like a Sam Sol.

Just super dark.

Yeah, super dark.

Multiple layers of spray tan. For sure. Give it a face, some smiling white teeth.

Yeah. You know, we won't have humanoid AGI until one of these wins the Arnold.

Yes.

That is the only.

That's the real.

That's the benchmark.

Yeah. I don't care about MMLU or Chatbot Arena. I care about the Arnold.

That's a Coogan coat coated post.

Exactly. And llama here, 60 gram protein diet never reached failure, but barely even tracks, reps, sets or weights. Thinks creatine is illegal.

Got him.

Not gonna, not gonna make it on that. But you know, we're talking about ways to get attention. Obviously viral videos work very well. If you have a viral product like a synthetic humanoid, that's super creepy. But sometimes you don't and sometimes you just need advertising. That's why we wanna talk about ad quick. Big sponsor on the channel. They make out of home advertising easy and measurable. Say goodbye to headaches of out of home advertising. Or only Adquick combines technology out of home expertise and data to enable efficient, seamless and ad buying across the globe.

And what I want to add here is Adquick can also help sponsors get very, you know, sort of brands get very creative.

Oh yeah.

So this is sort of dark, but you know how the cartel will sort of hang up, you know, bodies over, you know, overpass clone could hang their humanoids from meat hooks like they did in their video. Just hang them from like overpass on the 101. Right.

I think there's a collab in the future.

Collab there. But yeah, if you want to, if you want to get creative, hit up ad quick and let's get back to the show.

So Paki McCormick says, Jesus, Dwarkesh Patel is cooking because he launched a new podcast with Satya Nadella. And it's, it is crazy seeing how far this podcast has, has, has come. Dwarkesh has done Zuck. He got the exclusive for the Llama 3 release. And that was fascinating because the New York Times wrote a piece about meta launching Llama, but they didn't get an exclusive interview or a real interview at all. They just got a statement.

Really is the death knell of traditional media basic value is that they would get the exclusive.

Exactly.

And now that you have trillion dollar company CEOs realizing that they can get more impact and still get the news out on the New York Times by going to somebody who's. He was much more likely to be friendly and not try to sort of position them negatively. Dwarkesh isn't here. Yeah. Just focusing on that. You know, Dwarkesh is not like, oh, like, you know, talk about your relationship with Sam Altman. He's like, let's focus on, on like the reality of what's happening here. And the New York Times would just take it to this place.

Exactly.

That. Satya doesn't want to go. Nobody really wants to go there.

Yeah.

Let's just focus on the matter at hand.

Yeah. It's the tmz.

Like, Dwarkesh is not Dwarkesh by nature of being an AI oriented podcast. He does not need to do clickbait in order to, you know, he doesn't need to try to make it more dramatic than it is to get listens. Like every single person that you know is relevant in AI is like going to at least figure out what they talked about here.

Yeah. Yeah. And so Satya really did break the news about Microsoft's new quantum computing project on the Dorkash Patel podcast, which is incredible. And there's a little summary here by Prakash Adapy. Satya is out TLDR. Microsoft doesn't believe in AGI. They're wary of over investment. And the OpenAI partnership is over. Allegedly, AI and AGI are overhyped. Satya says us claiming, us self claiming some AGI milestone, that's just nonsensical benchmark hacking. To me, the real benchmark is the world growing at 10% GDP. I love this, we talked about this before, artificial economic intelligence. I was trying to coin something around it and I was basically just saying like I don't care about any of the evals, the eval is the economic output and Satya did a better job condensing it than I did. But really like that is how you measure the value of AI is what.

And that's something, that's something that everybody like. It's very. As somebody who will be a power, you know, Microsoft presumably will be one of the most powerful companies in AI just by nature of the over investment in, in compute and positioning. It's very smart for Satya to say. What I actually think is most exciting is the excessive GDP growth which will create massive surplus in our economy and enable everybody to benefit from it. Even if right now they're just watching brainrot slop on TikTok. So even the people that are just doing nothing to participate in this sort of broader technological trend, if this plays out, they will benefit from it massively. And I think that's beautiful. That's capitalism at its best, baby.

It's, it is, it really is. Satya goes on to talk about he's very negative on more capex spend from Microsoft. If you look at the industrial revolution, there was a lot of money lost which is hilarious because everyone say oh this is the next industrial revolution. I wouldn't say he's, he's like I don't want to be the person that over invested in the wrong type of windmill or so.

So this I think was in response to Dwarkesh saying hey, if the, if the, if we can get to 10% GDP growth which would basically be 5xing our current growth, which would be tremendous. Dwarkesh was like why don't you spend 10 times more on data center build outs? And he, and he basically said well we're kind of like scaling it appropriately. It's like finding this balance between. You don't want to have oversupply of.

You know, I'm excited to be a leaser. I build a lot. I lease a lot. Yeah, I love it.

Yeah. So he's, he's saying here he's fine if, if other people over build because he'll come in and say well we have basically all this demand. We'll help, we'll, we'll basically buy, you know, we'll sort of, you know, make long term commits to your compute and then we'll sort of chunk it up.

And sell it, you know, in consumer, in Some categories, there may be some winner take all network effect. ChatGPT is a great example of an at scale consumer property that already has real escape velocity in enterprise. Buyers will not tolerate winner take all where the buyer is a corporation, enterprise and IT department. They will want multiple suppliers. That is what will happen even on the model side.

And so this is why this is, We've, we've talked about this a bunch of times on the show. Our sort of generalized belief that Elon thinks the value. He was able to catch up with Xai in terms of like general model capabilities at least like within, within the ballpark. He still clearly believes that, you know, he, it seems obvious that he would like to control Chat GPT as a consumer product company. Right. And he sees that as potentially being, you know, this trillion dollar company. And now there's all this FUD. Like a lot of people like to say, oh OpenAI's Yahoo, you know, look at, look at their market cap. But you know, I think there's a strong case for you know, a dominant consumer, you know, new consumer app company.

Yeah. So Prakash closes out with five opinion sections or maybe four takeaways. Satya is calling the bubble in the build out. The crazy people like governments are entering the game. He's happy to lease from them when they overbuild.

Yeah.

So he's talking about spend is capped.

He's talking about like a, a country, you know, like Malaysia who's like we should get in the data center game. And then, and then realizing, oh, we actually don't have the, the technical expertise to efficiently deliver this compute to end consumers. Okay, we should just partner with Microsoft and kind of let them, you know, operate it. And Microsoft is happy to take over that supply.

And then Adapy goes on. He's disappointed in the eight in the OpenAI partnership. Satya sees them as having built a great consumer app for themselves with dominance in the category. But models for enterprise usage have gotten commoditized which is kind of interesting because it's like yes, you are disappointed but like only because you didn't predict that I guess. Which is kind of odd. He's so done with the AGI talk. If you can't get to 10% global growth, your AGI talk is meaningless to him. I love that. And then the last thing, he's backing Microsoft from the Capex precipice. It's funny because he certainly did make Google dance. But now they're committed and now they're committed to insane Capex. But he's out of here. Yeah. One of the most meaningful Dwarakash interview so far.

Making Google dance.

It's a good phrase, really.

I mean, it does not feel like the, you know, Satya's in a different league than Google's leadership at this point. Like, it's just they seem, you know, I'm sure that they'll say, hey, we should get our guy on Dorkesh.

Yeah. But, you know, yes. Yeah. Has done it. I know he's done some interviews with a few people. I mean, he's done some with. With mkbhd, but I just don't see Sundar pushing as much. And also it's a very different organization where the founders of Google are still dipping their toes in every once in a while. Like, I firmly believe Bill Gates has not been back. Like, you know, hey, hey, Satya, I got an idea for you in years. Definitely not.

So Sundar has not been on Dwarkesh.

Ooh.

And what was his last.

Like, we need to build. Speaking of our next. I don't know.

Can. Can Sundar. Is Sundar the guy to go on a two hour podcast or is he more of the. Is he more on Kamala Manager mode? Kamala Mode.

Manager mode. Yeah. Maybe. I mean, he should figure it out because it's an important skill set.

If your CEO can't go on a two hour podcast, you're cooked.

You know how during the, during the election I said that there was the. The Coogan parlay, which was you. You bet on polymarket for Trump to do over three hours on Rogan, for Kamala to do under two hours on Rogan, she wound up doing none. And then whoever does the longer Rogan interview wins the election. Because I had this whole podcast, election thesis. I want to see on public a basket of tech stocks for where the CEO has done an hour long plus interview on Dwarkash. I want to own that basket, the new qqq.

Oh. Oh. Oh, yeah.

Basically you're running a public company.

Yeah, yeah.

If you're running a public company and you have the chops as a CEO to duke it out with your cash.

For a couple hours, I think the podcast put that in the index.

Yeah.

CEO index.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, Carp's. Carp's done them. There's a lot of people that have done them. So that takes us to our next sponsor, Public Investing. For those who take it seriously, they have multi asset investing, industrial industry leading yields and they're trusted millions public earns high marks for ease of use and investment selection. So go check it out@public.com. and I wanted to mention public because I wanted to know after, after, after Satya did Dwarkesh, what happened with the Microsoft stock? So I have a chart here on the next slide, which is Microsoft's past week. And you can see they he goes on DWAR Cash, he announces this new quantum computing thing that we'll talk about. And the stock popped up 2%. And so the, the company has been doing phenomenally. And shout out to Satya, the absolute dog. Let's go back to his discussion about AGI and that 10% milestone. I think there's some interesting quotes here because Dwarkesh pushes back. And so Satya is saying, you know, us claiming some AGI milestone, that's just nonsensical benchmark hacking. The real benchmark is the world growing at 10%. And then Dwarkesh says, hey, look, if the world's growing at 10%, the economy is 100 trillion globally, if the world grows at 10%, that's an extra 10 trillion. You're investing 80 billion as a hyperscaler. That's not that much money. Shouldn't you be doing 800 billion? If you really think in a couple of years we could be growing in the world economy at this rate? So, you know, revealed preference, you can.

Kind of be like, look, Masa thinks he should do 500. What are you doing?

Yeah, yeah, that's basically what he asked, which I like, because it's like, this is a, this is a, this is actually a hard question, but it's not framed as a gotcha or some sort of like, you know, negative thing. It's just, hey, this is actually the real question that we should be discussing.

Yeah.

And Scotchev says, that's correct. But by the way, the classic supply side is, hey, let me build it and they'll come. That's an argument. And after we've all, after all we've done that we've taken enough risk to go do it. But at some point the supply and demand have to map. That's why I'm tracking both sides of it. You can go off the rails completely when you're hyping yourself up with supply, supply side versus really understanding how to translate that into real value to customers. That's why I look at my inference revenue. That's one of the reasons why even the disclosure on the inference revenue. It's interesting that not many people are talking about their real revenue. But to me that is important as a governor for how you think about it. So he's like, hey, at Microsoft, we tell you how much money we're making from inference. And that's the real value of AI. It doesn't matter how much you're spending training the models, it matters how much money is being generated from the usefulness of those models.

Like that is the biggest risk right now. Like the risk for the hyperscalers is, is not, is not getting in the general round. Like not having a gen generally accurate demand prediction, right? So if you way overdo it, you're going to get crushed because people just say, look, you know, these guys can't accurately predict or utilize the supply they're bringing online. And then the other side is probably what Satya would prefer, which is, hey, we, we went big but not big enough. And we're trying to race to kind of fulfill that, right? And especially now with Elon showing how quickly you can build these massive clusters, you know, 200,000 GPU cluster, and he's ramping, wanting to ramp to a million as soon as possible. So it just shows.

And I think it goes back to Google. Like we saw in Google's cloud earnings report that they were capacity constrained. And so I think they missed earnings on Google Cloud because they weren't able to deliver services. But I think that Satya is saying, hey, were they capacity constrained on the training side or the inference side? Because those tell two different stories about the actual value. Because a whole bunch of companies can go raise a lot of money and show up at the hyperscalers and say, hey, I need $10 billion worth of worth of training compute right now. And that's not the same as $10 billion for useful AI and product GDP growth, right? Like training does not necessarily get us GDP growth. And so Sach is really throwing the gloves down saying, let's see it, let's see GDP growth. Show me something AI, it's for the people. Yeah, it's great. And that's exactly how we should be thinking about this stuff. It's so good. And so Darkesh goes on, he says, so if you really think there's some potential here to 10x or 5x the growth rate of the world, and then you're like, well, what's the revenue from GPT4? If you really think that's the possibility for the next level up, shouldn't you just, let's go crazy, let's do hundreds of billions of dollars of compute. I mean, there's some chance, right? And so Dwarkesh is like doubling down on this question. Good, follow up. And Satya says, here's the interesting thing, right? That's not. That's why even that balanced approach to the fleet at least is very important to me. It's not about building compute, it's about building compute that can actually help me not only train the next big model, but also serve the next big model. Until you do those two things, you're not going to be able to be in a position to really take advantage of your, even your investment. So that's kind of where it's not a race just to building a model. It's a race to creating a commodity that is getting used in the world to drive. You have to have a complete thought, not just one thing that you're thinking about. And by the way, one of the things is that there will be over build to your point about what happened in the dot com era. The memo has gone out that hey, you, you know, you need more energy, you need more compute. Thank God for it. So everyone's going to race. In fact, it's not just companies deploying. Countries are going to deploy capital and there will clearly. And so I'm excited. And he's about to say like they were clearly like, actually he's like, these.

Countries are my pay pigs.

And so I'm excited to be a leaser because by the way, I build a lot, I lease a lot. And so he's saying like, look, yeah, some of that capex spend is going to go up, but also we're going to be leasing because we don't want to be holding the bag. And so there's a little bit of game of musical chairs going on with some of the build outs. A little bit of nervousness. I don't know, he might be wrong. He might be under building the, the, the, the Pascal's wager for AI build out at the hyperscalers for a long time was if you, if AI is fake and you and you over invest, you still don't lose your job. But if AI is real and you underinvest, you definitely lose your job.

Yeah.

And so just in terms of like, you know, I want to, I want to maintain my job and everyone had the same incentive of like, we gotta go all in because there's no, there's no downside here. Um, let's move on. He says he's talking about how AI takeoff is a risk and, and, and Satya's bringing it back to like, okay, how would that actually happening? He says, to your point, I think that one of the reasons why I think about even the most powerful AI is essentially working with some delegated Authority from some human. You can say, oh, all this alignment and all that. That's why I think you really have to get these alignment to work and be verifiable in some way. But I don't think that you can deploy intelligences that are out of control. For example, this AI takeoff problem may be a real problem, but before it is a real problem, the real problem will be in the courts. No society is going to allow for some human to say that.

And that's why I've said that the, you know, a lot of people say, oh, lawyers are cooked. Why are you going to need lawyers to, to do, you know, things when you could just ask an AI, hey, can you create this document and send it for signature? And boom, it's done. And people I think are still going to want to be able to say, like, we had a human sign off on this AI output. So lawyers might spend less time on individual documents.

Yep.

But they will probably do more. They have a higher output because business owners, as an example, will do more legal work because it's cheaper.

Yep.

And right now, all day long, business owners will skip a doc cause they're like, oh, this person's just working on like this small thing. You know, we don't need to put it in a contract. Like it's not a big deal. But then as it gets easier to just like, you know, basically. ChatGPT. Hey, can you make this doc freelancer agreement, send it out for signature. Boom, it's done.

Yep.

It will just happen more.

Yep.

And same thing. Same thing with capital allocators. You know, these big endowments are like, cool. I'm glad your hedge fund is using AI to make investment decisions. But you better be signing off on, you know, the vast majority, any transaction over a certain amount. Because if you lose our money, like we want to know who's responsible and why it happened. And you can't just say, you know, blame it on your. Your.

Yeah. Do you want to summarize? That's that experience we had with that young kid who was thinking about going into fund to fund management.

Yeah. So, so we, we met up with a, with a listener on the show who goes to school at usc, which is around the corner from us. And yeah, he was, you know, our advice to him was generally, you know, he was saying, just trying to get a sense of what jobs are still going to exist within the space. And we felt pretty strongly that, you know, specifically he had an offer from a fund of funds to go join and go there. And I think our advice to him was generally that job will still exist for like a number of different reasons. But you should still figure out how to use AI to be exceptionally good at your job to. Right. Software for the work that you do to just be even more efficient. And you should be thinking of it as, how do I use AI so that I can manage, you know, exponentially more capital.

Yeah.

For my firm.

Yeah. Basically on day one, being the most junior employee at a company, historically that has not meant you show up and you have 20 direct reports. Unless you're like, I don't know, like a new. Unless it's like, oh, yeah, you're some new grad and you're hiring a bunch of people that are, you're managing people that didn't go to college. But in most, in most firms, in most investment firms, you come in, you don't have any direct reports, and after a few years they give you one intern. And then after a decade, you have a team under you. But with AI, it's like on day one, you can have 20 employees effectively and you can have a Devon working for you and a deep, deep research.

It's actually a very interesting way. You're going to have the younger generation who learns to manage.

They should be managers on day one.

For sure, before they ever manage a human.

Yeah, no, totally.

And it's, and it's many of the same, like workflows for managing people you can use for AI. It's like, yeah, you don't want to let the AI just run off for four days just like spinning their wheels, like doing random stuff, spending money or time or inference.

Totally.

You want to have them execute something, give them quick feedback, you know, make sure it's good. Make sure it's good, have them keep going. Right. But then you're balancing that now you can manage, you know, you could be managing five or six.

Yeah.

10, 20 agents at once that are all carrying out individualized tasks.

Yeah. And so, yeah, I mean, they talk about rogue actors a little bit and how some societies might allow for a fast takeoff. But again, I think that there's, there's a huge pressure against that in the same way that we haven't had nuclear war. Even though, yes, there are some countries that are rogue states. There's enough pressure globally. I don't think Satya wants to say that, but I do think that if there was some AI lab that was truly working on some, know, killer AI, there would be a lot of pressure from the international community militarily to stop that. And it would be the Same thing if you tried to build it in San Francisco. And at the end of the day, someone has to push the button to deploy the killer AI, at least initially. And, and that person wants to survive and there is the threat of violence from governments. And so it's less of a risk than I think most people think. Anyway. I love this question because it gets to the kind of just a really interesting narrative violation in Silicon Valley. Dwarkesh asks Satya, is being a company man underrated? You've spent most of your career at Microsoft and you could say that one of the reasons you've been able to hold add so much value is you've seen the culture, the history and the technology. You have all this context. By rising up through the ranks, should more companies be run by people who have this level of context? And he says, company man. He says, that's a great question. I haven't thought about that way.

We have to have a Company man of the Year award for sure. This year for sure.

I think it is underrated in Silicon Valley and I think it's very interesting. And so he says, through my 34 years now at Microsoft, each year felt more exciting about being at Microsoft versus thinking that, oh, I'm a company person or what have you so no ego about it, which is there's a huge memetic pressure in Silicon Valley to not be a company man. Yeah, yeah. Oh, it'd be better to run a $1 million.

It's almost to the point where people, people don't real. Like many people in tech, the things that they want in life are all achievable on a million dollars a year total comp, sort of salary. Like everything you could want. Like the nice house, the cars, the second home, kids in private school.

Yep.

It's all achievable on that. Yet they think that the only way they can get that is if they have some big liquidity event. I need a big liquidity event before I'm 30 and I need another one, you know, and then I'm going to do my big company and then it's going to be a billion dollars. A lot of those people, like, how many of those people would have been a great PM at Meta and just don't realize the kind of compensation that you can get by just working up the org.

Totally.

And the excitement of working on products that instead. Instead of working on your like vertical SaaS app that has five users.

Yeah.

Working on some. Working on a feature where you're like, like people joke about, oh, you're Just changing, like the rounding on the button. The button. It's like, well, that's pretty cool if you have 20 million people clicking that button every single day.

Two billion people.

Yeah, yeah.

Like two orders of magnitude.

But I'm just saying, even if you're working on like some obscure part of the Settings app, totally. You're still getting millions and millions of clicks, potentially an hour, potentially adding more.

Value than someone who's been adding value.

To the world, saving people time. And time is money.

Yeah, yeah, I know, it's fantastic. And so he says, I take that seriously, even for anybody joining Microsoft. It's not like they're joining Microsoft as long as they feel that they can use this as a platform for both economic return, but also a sense of purpose and a sense of mission that they can accomplish by using us as a platform. That's the contract. I love that. That's a great distillation of what it means to like hire. And you can tell that he's hired well because of that. So I think, yes, companies have to create a culture that allows people to come in and become company people, like me. Microsoft got it more right than wrong, at least in my case, and I hope that remains the case.

Yeah. It's interesting that when you look at Apple, Google and Apple, Google and Microsoft, now they're all run by company men.

Yeah.

And. And that's been. And the thing that, you know, we're seeing with Satya is Satya goes founder Mode. Right. Founder mode is going on the up and coming AI podcast and being willing to talk for two hours about what you're doing. Right.

Yeah.

Sundar, on the other hand, you could argue, no, these guys are in manager mode. Tim Cook is over at the John Summit Concert dancing, you know, instead of, you know, working on the next computing platform. And like. But, you know, he's done a great job of that type of manager, at least to date.

Yeah. Well, speaking of the next computing platform, the big announcement was a new quantum computing chip and so that they had.

Sitting on the desk.

Right? Yeah. Yeah, that's cool. Quantum computers you might have seen have been, you know, it's usually like this, this superconductor, like frosty, like super cold, like gold, like crazy looking device in essentially a lab. Certainly not something you can rack on a server. Microsoft claims to have boiled it down to a point where this could potentially be scaled into, you know, millions of qubits, which are quantum, which, which we'll go through here. So Elon shared a Grok analysis of quantum computing and The Majorana One chip, which is Microsoft's new quantum computing quantum processing unit. So we'll give a quick overview of quantum computing. Imagine a computer so powerful it could solve problems that today's supercomputers can't even touch. That's the idea behind quantum computing. Unlike regular computers, which use bits that are either 0 or 1, quantum computers use qubits. Qubits are special because they can be 0, 1 or both at the same time, thanks to a quantum property called superposition. This allows quantum computers to process huge amounts of information all at once, making them potentially game changing for tasks like simulating complex molecules for drug discovery, optimizing massive systems like traffic or supply chains, and cracking tough math problems. There's a catch. Qubits are incredibly fragile. They can lose their quantum state and thus their information due to tiny disturbances like heat or noise. This fragility is one of the biggest hurdles in making quantum computers practical. Now Microsoft launched the Majorana chip. Majorana one chip. And it was funny because in the interview Satya's like, clearly heard about the project for a long time but he like didn't know the final code name. Cause they probably have code names and then they're launching it. He's like, I think we're calling it Majorana. Had to like check that.

But that's founder mode.

It's a new QPU quantum processing unit which could be the successor to the gpu, the tpu. Now the qpu. It's designed to tackle this fragility problem. It's the first chip to use a topological core, a cutting edge approach that leverages exotic particles called Majorana particles. These particles help create a special kind of qubit called a topological cubit, which is more stable than, than the qubits in most other quantum computers. Here's what stands out. Material. It uses a new type of material called a topo conductor. It's more stable and it's more scalable. And so Microsoft designed this explicitly to support a million qubits, which is a huge leap. And at that point you can actually start doing like real math and real problem solving as opposed to a lot of the, a lot of the systems that IBM and Google has worked. Science project. It's like, oh yeah, it's 10 qubits. It can, it can theoretically do the hard math, but it can't practically actually solve the problem.

So many companies that had, what was that AI project, I forget who he's in, but it wasn't started with a W. Maybe they're always saying, oh, it Solved this.

There's D wave.

D wave.

And there was Rigetti.

No, no, I'm not talking about chip. It was like IBM. What was IBM's big AI project?

Watson. Watson, yeah, Watson.

Watson got smoked.

Watson gets smoked. It's sad. Yeah, well, they crushed in jeopardy for a while. Yeah, that was a good stunt.

It's interesting that it seems like these big, you know, legacy computing companies had these since science projects and they seem to be content with them being science projects and being this sort of marketing. Right. Because Watson. Yeah, I haven't even seen anything about it in the last year.

Well, now Watson is a, is a consulting group that will help you implement llama. Essentially Mogged. Mogged. But also as we've seen, there's a lot of money to be made in just.

Yeah, sure, AI transformation, sure. But why have a decade plus long science experiment that you just end up as a consultant?

Because it's a marketing. It's a marketing project for your consultancy.

Okay.

And so I'm just saying. And so like when you call, you know, ExxonMobil and you say, hey, we want to help you implement AI and you say, oh, what company are you from? We're like IBM, we're the Watson group. You remember the jeopardy thing? Yeah. We've actually partnered with Facebook and Meta to vend in one of the greatest LLMs at the lowest cost. Not a bad pitch, not crazy, but the real reason why they missed out is that they weren't deep learning pilled, they weren't scale pilled. And Ilya Sutskever like, The magic at OpenAI was that there were a ton of papers that were being released around the same time. He read the transformer paper and was like, this is it. And he identified that and was like, let's go implement this and let's scale this. And that was like. And that was just a very, very key thing. It is interesting that everyone else is catching up and Watson isn't like, hey, us too, because they could have done, you know, if they were cracked, they could have done like a deep sea thing or a llama fine tune or Mistral.

I would, I also wouldn't be surprised if the best people at Watson got poached to go to the other.

Yeah, but I mean, yeah, the company is not set up as a, as a research like software enterprise company anymore. It's very much a lot of consulting. Anyway, let's go back to the Majorana chip. It relies on Majorana particles, which are fascinating because they are their own antiparticles. This property Makes them ideal for storing quantum information in a way that's naturally protected from certain errors. Picture it like this. Think of a regular qubit as a spinning coin that's easily knocked over by a breeze. A topological qubit is more like a knot tied in a rope. No matter how much you shake it, the knot stays secure. Interesting metaphor from Grok. Microsoft achieves this by using a topo conductor material that combines the properties of a conductor and a topological insulator. This setup allows them to create and manipulate majorana particles forming stable qubits. Why is this a bigger deal? Well, more stable, more stability, faster progress. And Microsoft is super committed to this. They've been researching this for 20 years and they've had a bunch of stuff.

See, that's the kind of stuff like I want to see the 20 years of research and then boom, boom, we're going to commercialize this.

Yeah. And so they actually had some setbacks. In 2018. They published a paper on quantum computing and they had to retract it because the, there was so much pushback from the scientific community. And so the article highlights potential applications. They're going to work on self healing, materials, sustainable agriculture, safer, safer chemical discovery. And going forward, they still have to scale up. Going from eight qubits to a million is a massive engineering challenge. It's not just about adding more qubits. They all need to work flawless.

We're focused on doubling here. Yep, they're focused on going 8 to x8 to a million.

But all the best, all the best, you know, projects are. But let's go to nature. So I believe Microsoft published their paper in Nature and there was some pushback. And I have an article here from Nature that will kind of show, you know, a little bit of truth zone on Microsoft claims. We'll see if we agree with it or not. We'll let you be the judge. So he says Microsoft claims quantum computing breakthrough. But some physicists are skeptical. The tech giant aims to make topological quantum computers that will reach useful scales faster than competing techno technologies. And so machines based on topology promise to be easier to build at scale than competing technologies. So again, it's not that they've built the million qubit machine yet. They're just saying, hey, the tech tree has been going this direction. And we think if we go in this direction, it'll be a faster shortcut to the quantum computer that we want that will actually be able to like, you know, simulate the universe essentially like the, the qubit. The, the whole thing with quantum computing is that like, you can do such complex. Like, you can break encryption, but you can do such hard computing problems that you can actually, like, instead of just physically, like, modeling, like, the pen dropping and. And it's like the pen has a weight and it. And there's like a force. It's like you can model each atom in the pen. And it's like, yeah, no problem. Like, sure that. Even though that sounds good, boss. Insane amount of calculations. So the announcement came in a Feb. 19 press release containing few technical details, but Microsoft said it has disclosed some of its data to selected specialists in a meeting at its research center in Santa Barbara, California. Would I bet my life that they're seeing what they think they're seeing? No, but it looks pretty good, says Stephen Simon, a theoretical physicist at the University of Oxford, uk, who is briefed on the results.

It's got to be such a crazy dynamic, doing this frontier research in a space like quantum computing. And any day you don't know if you're going to wake up and your nemesis is going to publish this sort of groundbreaking piece, and then you have to sort of react to it, but you got to be, like, somewhat supportive because you ideally want the space to be pushing forward and getting more investment, but then simultaneously, you want to be the guy that has the breakthrough that really matters.

Yep.

So he's like, yeah, like, seems. Seems legit. Wouldn't bet my life on it, you know?

And so as at the. At the same time, the company published intermediate results, but not the proof of the existence of topological qubits. And so big question on what was on that chip, because it's kind of the classic, like, there, and I got the thing, and who knows if it's working and it's not working. And it's like, why did you. Why did you instantiate in the physical world? Like, clearly, from a marketing perspective, the reason that you say, like, I'm showing you the iPhone is because, like, it's real and you can buy it. And, like, Steve Jobs pulled it out of his pocket and was like, this is a real thing.

You wouldn't believe that brings a chip around.

Yeah. Beth Jesus does this, too. I think Beff Jesus is in one of these tweet threads being like, why is this a big deal? I don't care about this. It's heating up. But, I mean, in the markets generally, quantum computing has become very hot. There's a lot of SPACs that were down, and now they're popping again. And so I'm sure we're going to be hearing more about this, the very interesting thing is that most of the techno optimists.

Yeah, I'm going to pull up on public.

What was the look at Rigetti Computing? I think that's probably a good one. D wave, I think as well. But it's very interesting because you can look at all of this. It's like one of those things where people overestimate what can be done in a decade and underestimate what can be done in a century or overestimate what can be done in a year. Underestimate what can be done in a decade.

Yeah, we're getting all over the place. They're up, they're up 16% this month. But it's been up 700% the past quarter.

I told you. Yeah, 10x. So what's the market cap now?

They're 2.68 billion. Wow. Losing 60 million a year on 11 million of revenue.

Yeah. I mean they can't possibly have revenue because they haven't created a quantum computer. No, no one has. Like it's, it's not like there's no work to be done. It's a research organization now, but you're betting that they will be one to commercialize and if they do, it'll be extremely valuable. So good luck to them.

Wait, what you got somehow up that? Yeah, I misread. It's. It's 960% over the past quarter.

So it's 10x over the last quarter.

Wow. Yeah, not bad.

$270 million company and now it's a 2 billion dollar company.

Hopefully other, you know, companies, you know, Satya sees this and says, okay, this is a new bar Now I need a 10x Microsoft in the next quarter.

Let's go.

What would he have to, what would he have to announce?

You know, he would have to announce we solve quantum computing.

Yeah.

But I mean to my earlier point, like a lot of really smart tech people that I talk to do say yes, like this is the century where we will solve quantum computing. It's going to take a long time, probably longer than we estimate. It's hard to. Hard to exactly, you know, you know, forecast it out, but when we do, it will result in crazy, crazy new abilities. Yeah. And yeah, one, one, one guy I was talking to, very successful founder was like, so million qubit Quantum computer by 2040, 2050, talking to somebody else. And it was like, yeah, maybe. And he's like, so Dyson sphere by 2100. And it was like, yeah, that sounds about right. And it was like so casual. But I was like, that sounds crazy, but also like that things are really accelerating and we're building crazy stuff. Like, you know, you think about 100 years before we can talk to the computer now.

Yeah.

100 years ago, we didn't have computers at all.

Yeah.

Nothing. Yeah, it was like, you know, it was like, trains are cool. 100 years ago.

Yeah. Trains are still cool.

Trains are still cool. But we don't need more of them.

We don't need more of them. But.

Yeah. Uh, well, let's go through other, uh, interesting hard tech demos that kind of went off the rails and landed one guy, I think, in jail.

At least one.

We're moving to Nikola, and we have a chart here from the. The stock is all over the place. The market cap is at 40 million. They declared Chapter 11 bankruptcy today. They were in the Wall Street Journal. And so it's interesting.

It's interesting that there's somebody out there that's still buying Nikola shares today because it's still. They declared bankruptcy, but obviously you can still trade it.

Yeah.

So somebody out there is watching some, like, slop YouTube video of, like, Nikola being the future, and they're like, oh, this company seems really cool.

A lot of slum. Yeah. But at their peak, they were in the multiple billions market cap, and they've dropped significantly. Let's give a little bit.

They pop.

You.

They pop. So in June of 2020.

Yeah.

Few months after the pandemic started, they went public at around 20. 20. $20 billion.

20 billion.

They didn't go public. They didn't spray.

That's crazy. Normally, like, $4 billion companies and this is five times.

Yeah, but the. But think about the pop on so many.

I know, I know.

Looks like a meme coin chart.

It really does look like a meme coin chart.

And it had about as much tech as a meme coin.

As a meme coin. Yeah. And what a silly name. It's like Tesla already exists. Let's make a. Clearly, people will think it's literally meme coin. It's like how there was like, you know, there's Trump coin and then there's Melania coin. It's like, oh, like, let's just Joe Bowden and Kamala Harris or whatever. Hillary Clinton coin or whatever. Or even after dogecoin, there were, like, cat coins. And, you know, they were like the monkeys and then the dogs and then the owls and all sorts of stuff. People know when there's attention, just farm a little bit. Sneak a little bit off the side.

Yeah.

Proven. Proven path. So this story starts back in 2009, Trevor Milton, the CEO of Nikola, he had a project called D Hybrid for swift transportation. It fails amid accusations of misused funds hinting at future deception. In 2014, he founds the Nikola Motor Company after selling D Hybrid, touting revolutionary hydrogen electric trucks with hefty seed investments. 2016, the Nikola One truck is announced with claims of thousands of reservations and technology years ahead of its.

What was the Nikola One truck? Was it actually like a commercial semi?

Semi, like a 18 wheeler type truck? I don't know.

Yeah. And it's so funny because the strategy of saying, hey, we have this. You can reserve it for either no dollars or a hundred dollars. Remember the cyber truck? It was like 100 bucks.

Yeah.

I had numerous friends who were like.

Oh Yeah, I threw 100 bucks.

The novelty of being able to say like yeah, yeah, I preordered versus the roadster.

I think you have to put down like 50k.

Yeah.

Which is like a wildly different bar.

Yeah. But for that buyer it's yeah, true change.

But, but like they hadn't announced pricing, so I guarantee there'd be, there's like a massive price elasticity to, to, you know, electric car preorder deposits. So if the roadster was 100 buck down, 100 bucks down, and they were like, hey, Maybe it'll cost 50 bucks and it'll be better than a turbo S, like people would definitely be jumping in 50k. Yeah. They were like hey, maybe it'll be 50k and you only have to put a hundred bucks down. Now like even if it came out at 200 later, people would pre sell a ton, which could be good for just establishing demand. But I don't know.

And just for context, I think like to, to put in some of these like pre orders. Like I think the humane pin, even at their price point got like 7,000 pre orders. So like they couldn't even get pre orders based on a device that didn't actually, you know, the humane device didn't work reliably. Yeah. But anyways, back, back to trucks.

Okay. So December 2016, they unveiled the Nikola One prototype. Despite obvious signs, it was not fully functional, I. E. Visible external power cables. So people are like, wait a minute, there's a, there's a cable coming out of this car. You haven't untethered this thing. And in January of 2018, that's, that's a year year later.

It's funny because it actually wouldn't be that damning if they were like, hey, we're going to make the car roll uphill because then you could say, well, we don't have the battery set up yet, but we have it connected to basically an extension cord. Yeah, it's like a vacuum. And then we're going to get the bat. We're the engines going now. We're going to get the motors working now. But. But instead they, you know, put it in motion two years later.

Yeah, yeah. A year and two months. Yeah. So they do the rolling truck video. A promotional video shows the truck quote unquote in motion. But it was later revealed to have been rol to simulate.

So they actually towed it to the top with a tow truck and then rolled it down.

What's funny is like, is like I'm sure if you're building a car there is a process where you go from like we're in the clay, you know the clay, like where they carve out the design. Then it's like, hey, we have CAD designs. Hey we, hey we ma. We fabricated like the external shell.

Yeah.

Hey we, we fabricated like the, the wheels and the transmission and the axles enough that it actually moves. And that could have been just a cool thing if they didn't lie about it. And then like look, yeah, it's not actually working yet, but we got it rolling at least.

It's just funny because they had to lie. You presumably could have got the rolling truck video in the first month.

Oh yeah.

By just building out the frame. Totally wheels on it, you know, getting.

I mean there are like kit car guys that can do that in their like garage on the weekend with their.

There's some great videos of people making like, like things that look like Porsches that are just totally fake.

Yeah, you've seen the, the the for the Fiero, the Pontiac Fiero. People put body kits on that to make it look like a Countach because it was a mid engine sports car from the 80s by Pontiac. But it's like you know, 10, 10k or something so you can just mod it like crazy. This is hilarious. In May of 2018, they sue Tesla for $2 billion over design features. An action scene is both bold and bizar.

The company that, the company that names themselves after a derivative of Tesla then goes back and sues Tesla.

Yeah, it's like you'd think you'd be getting sued.

Bold and bizarre.

Egregious. Nikola.

Honestly, the whole thing, the whole thing, Nicola. Bold and bizarre.

To boost credibility, they refund all pre order deposits despite not having delivered a product. Probably just because they raised some money off of the, off of the. Off of the pre orders and they didn't want the pressure from the consumers. April 20 Nikola World Spectacle. Spectacle is just not a good name for anything. A lavish event unveils multiple prototypes and secures a high profile order from Anheuser Busch. So they're, you know, the deal guys. They're making deals happen, I guess. But rough Milton purchases a $32 million Utah ranch and and public offers proposing a Tesla pickup design draw increased scrutiny. And so By November of 2019 people are getting real suspicious of this guy. He's, he's, you know, suing Tesla, launching these weird truck videos where they're kind of fake.

And then also the guy who was just suing them for $2 billion is now giving them design saying hey Tesla, you guys should make this.

Yeah. Wild, hilarious cunning banks. Or do you see the next one? The Nicola Badger. You want to read this?

February 2020. So this is a few months before they spac. The company unveils the Nikola Badger pickup with over the top features including a built in water fountain from fuel cell exhaust.

Can you imagine you just like.

I mean as a father I do like trucks.

Yeah. You're in the filtered water game, Jordy. Why not?

Yeah. As a water fanatic.

Yeah. Maybe we need to hook the Aurora up to the exhaust of the cooling of the turbo.

It's funny. This truck looks like I've got it pulled up right now. It looks like a complete knockoff of the Tundra meets a trx.

Sure.

And a water fountain using the dispensed fuel is pretty cool.

So funny. But again, great viral story little feature. And to be fair, the Cybertruck and other Tesla products have had similar things like that. The Model X has the gull wing doors that are total showstoppers. And it's like you could just do minivan doors on those.

But yeah, you could do the minivan doors. The, the one thing about minivan door. I mean all these types of doors. Having kids, I got, I got a Mercedes van because I realized being able to just sit.

Yep. Stand and just put the kids straight in.

Put the kids straight in with the seats. But then the doors, you're always kind of worried like are they gonna get.

Yep.

Anyways, I, I thought that was very smart. Elon is always been able to thread the needle and the Tesla team around novelty and use function utility.

Totally.

Because like think about another feature by.

Wire in Cybertruck is very gimmicky but it's also amazing because you're in this huge truck and you just move your hand like Two inches and you're turning.

And then Tesla also does the novelty of, oh, we're going to make like a fart sound effect in the car. Nikola could never, never. So June 2020, the frenzy begins. Nikola goes public via a SPAC. Skyrocketing value despite having zero revenue as investors buy into the hype. So immediately can see on public, you know, basically pumps to $20 billion and then just drops basically every single day for the next five years. I'm sure they had. I got to look. They had some. They had some bounces.

Oh, boy. Gets mentioned here.

Who's that?

Hindenburg.

Anyways, so in September 20, 2020, they had spacked in March or June. Sorry. So just a few months later, GM announces an 11% stake. So they take a public position in this public company and plans to manufacture Nikola trucks only for Hindenburg research to expose a series of deceptive claims. So terrible look for gm. Sounds like they didn't do a lot of technical due diligence. Should have called him like first they saw. They went and visited the ranch in Utah and they were like, this ranch is awesome.

Tech must hang out with this guy more.

The tech must be great. Shortly after, Milton resigns amid mounting evidence of fraud and the GM deal is dressed dramatically, scaled back. Yeah, I'm sure they still like had their position, you know, hopefully. And then at that point, like, this is so long ago, like a little under five years ago. And so there's all this legal fallout. July 2021, still like the absolute top of the market. Milton is indicted on multiple fraud charges. In October 2022, he's found guilty and sentenced to prison with hefty fines. They're clearly clawing back, you know, I'm sure a lot of. I'm sure he did various transactions over time that he benefited from personally. Nicholas settles with the SEC for $125 million over misleading investors. So they had raised, I'm sure, billions of dollars through. Through their public offering. And then in February 2025, today, with production delays, financial struggles, and a tarnished reputation, Nikola files for chapter 11. So anyways, wish, wish the story had a better ending, but it's honestly in some ways amazing that they are made it so far, even after their founder, you know, went was. Was out of the picture. It's crazy. On public they have. There's been $27 million of volume today.

Whoa.

So is this. I'm trying to understand who's buying the stock at this point. Do they feel that? I mean, who knows, right? I just.

It's so bizarre. I mean this is just such an interesting company because I, because they still.

Have, they still are loaded up with.

Debt similar to Therapeutics, similar to Theranos. Like this is, this is one of those companies that I feel like was like an open secret in Silicon Valley that everyone knew that this was fake.

Yeah.

Like there was never a moment where people were like, oh maybe this will work out. Like I'm, it wasn't wishing.

It wasn't like Tesla was losing engineers to Nikola.

That never happened. And also there were never VC funds piling into this. I just pulled up Crunchbase and It was the U.S. department of, of Energy, CNH Industrial, General Motors, California Transportation Commission. So like the guy was clearly just really good at rising like non financial investors who don't do this stuff. And I'm sure that if, if this, if this founder looked into like a Holy Trinity firm and tried to pitch this, they would have gotten laughed at.

At this time, the other car manufacturers didn't really have a strong EV strategy. It did make sense from a narrative standpoint that there would be a commercial, you know, commercial focused version of Tesla focused on trucking. Everybody knew that Tesla would eventually do this, but it wasn't a priority for them. Right. And so from a narrative it all made sense. That doesn't mean that they can actually execute on that narrative and capture value based on that long term trend. And, and who knows? You know, I know Amazon has EVs now, but it doesn't seem like EVs have gotten that sort of widespread commercial. They haven't had the level of traction that that EVs have had in the commercial market.

Yes. So Milton is indicted, a CEO on multiple fraud charges. This is around 2021, 2022. And in October 2022 he is found guilty and sentenced to prison with heavy fines. Nicholas settles with the SEC for 125 million over misleading investors. And just now the reason we're covering it today is that it's basically the end of the road with production delays, financial struggles and a tarnished reputation they struggled for. They filed for bankruptcy.

He's going to be out of prison in 2027.

Let's get him on the show. I mean con. You're laughing. I mean maybe, you know, this is another thing we believe in redemptive justice, right?

Yes.

And you know, if he does his time, the main thing is I want to see some banger deep tech analysis. I want him to come out with some ground. I want him to hit the book.

I want him to be the Dylan Patel of the ev, the commercial EV space.

Yeah.

Hand write analysis on happenings.

Prove that you're the real deal.

Yeah.

Not just a charlatan. Come out with some, some groundbreaking research. Show me that you've at least read every book about battery cell technology.

He's 42, so he's not even going to be 50 when he gets out. He's born in 1982.

It'll be great. Little bump in the road and get him back in the game.

Get back in action.

Yeah. I love, I love a comeback story. America loves a comeback story. Let's see. So another green, green energy unicorn died Wednesday as Nikola Corp. Filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy. The 11 year old EV maker aspired to be the Tesla of trucks. They went public through a spac they got. They benefited from the Green New deal. That's a $27 billion market valuation. @ the time that was greater than Ford's. What a coincidence.

Wow.

Lots of people trying to shot at Ford, at Ford.

Ford gets, I mean Ford's Lindy, they're.

Going to be around longer than all these companies.

If Ford had a satya that, that is a $100 billion company.

For a while there was a, there was like a grandson of Henry Ford running the company which was awesome because they're, because their tagline was built Ford tough. And his name was Bill Ford. Bill Ford Tough. I love like a tough guy.

I love the word for. I love Ford as a first name.

Yeah.

Oh, it's great on, on our list list. You know, the next, the next son Ford Hayes. That's good sounding.

Yeah, I like that.

Yeah.

Yeah. I mean I would love to see Ford make a comeback. I had a Ford Explorer at one point. That was a great car. The Expeditions, fantastic. Ford gt, fantastic. Mustang, also great. You know these are great cars. Let's bring them back. Supposedly sophisticated investors were taken in by its marketing hype. General motors took the 11% stake which CEO Mary Barra hailed as an industry leading disruptor. It was supposedly sophisticated. It was disruptive in a different way. They posted a video on Twitter of its model truck appearing to power effortlessly down a flat road. With the caption, the Nikola hydrogen electric trucks will take on any semi truck and outperform them in every category. Weight, acceleration, stopping, safety and features, all with 500 to 1000 mile range. It would. That would be revolutionary if true. It wasn't. According to a 2021 federal fraud indictment of founder Trevor Milton, an inoperable prototype was towed to the top of the hill. Then Nikola employees released the Brake so it looked like it was cruising along. All while the door was taped shut to keep it from falling off and its batteries were removed to prevent the truck from catching fire. Rough. After taking investors from a ride, Mr.

Milton was the only ride they. They actually went on.

Good writing. Good writing. Good pun.

Journalists are underrated.

Underrated. This is Wall Street Journal opinion section. It's great. California regulators in the Biden administration tried to boost the electric truck market with mandates and subsidies. The inflation reduction act included a $40,000 tax credit for buyers of electric truck. Rule last spring requires that electric truck models make up 25% of long haul tractor sales by 2032. Man, talk about a bull case for Tesla. Now it's crazy. Another electric truck maker, Lordstown Motors, filed for bankruptcy in 2023. Fisker failed last June. Rough time. The British electric bus startup arrival sold its assets. Lots of bad stuff going on in the EV truck market. Power law rules everything around me. That's the story here.

Anyway, great opportunity though for one of our listeners to become a hero. Come in, pull them out of chapter 11, run it back up to the top. Yep, you're definitely going to get it. You know, you could. This could be turned into a meme coin.

Turn into a meme coin. Yeah.

And we were saying, actually just continue. It's, you know, you know, Trevor's going.

To try and come out of the clink, hit the ground running, build a new company. One thing in the clink, still gonna be a young man in the clink. Bed's famously uncomfortable. Maybe he needs an eight sleep. That takes us to our sponsor. Eight sleep. Nights that fuel your best days turn any bed into the ultimate sleeping experience. You can get one@eightsleep.com and we have another post from Eight Sleep. They formulated and sleep elixir with Valyrian root. Nature's secret to winding down faster. You can check that out@8sleep.com as well. And so we love 8 Sleep. And thank you for that one.

Note, they set up a url8sleep.comtbpn oh, cool. And they say TB approves the pod, which is the name of their product. Oh yeah, the POD approves. So they could just say the pod approves the pod. We have a quote up here that says you can't publish 15 plus hours a week of live content without being at peak performance. We simply wouldn't be able to do what we do without eight Sleep. And if you want to win as bad as we do, you can't afford to not sleep.

Yeah, that's amazing. Okay.

Yeah. We simply gotta show that we simply wouldn't be able to do what we do without a sleep. And if you want to win as bad as we do, you can't afford not to sleep on the pod. So check it out. Same same pod that Huberman uses.

I love it. I love it.

And Rob over there, absolute boys.

Well, let's move on to some drama between Salesforce and Microsoft.

You know we love drama.

It got spicy.

I love when. I love being air on being air. Violence.

I love it. I love it. Mark Benioff and Satya Nadella have been going back and forth. There's an article in the Information breaking it down. But first I wanted to pull up what the stock has been doing. So we went to public.com. we looked at Salesforce. They're up 20 in the last six months. Market caps 310 billion. It's a big company. Big, big, big, big, big company. CRM. Big business. But they, but they own everything now they own Slack and they're trying to get everyone to upgrade to Slack AI. Have you been getting those notifications?

I haven't seen Slack.

Oh man. Like whenever you're in Slack down every. There's a modal that pops up. Request AI.

David Sacks launched like a Slack competitor that leverages AI.

Didn't he build like a, like a.

Like a Slack for Slack?

Like that was his main thing. Right. He sold to Microsoft.

I almost clicked on David Snacks, which is a parody account. Well, Sachs pulled his chat.

I was thinking of Yammer. Like that was the company he did after PayPal. And he sold that for a billion dollars.

Yeah. So he. Last year he announced an AI powered work chat app rivaling Slack called Blue.

Anyways, I didn't know about that. Interesting. Okay, well anyway, let's go to this article in the information Salesforce in talks with Microsoft, Oracle and Google about cloud deal to handle AI Salesforce. Marc Benioff has long been a vocal critic of Microsoft. A couple years ago, he accused the company of violating antitrust laws and how it sells software bundles. More recently, he slammed its artificial intelligence chatbot for giving inaccurate responses and being difficult to use. I think he dropped Clippy as a pejorative. It got spicy. I think it was. I think it was an Aspen or Sun Valley. It was an iconic moment. But that history hasn't stopped Salesforce from including Microsoft in negotiations. It's having with several cloud providers, also including Google and Oracle, about a major new cloud agreement. The deal is likely to be worth more than $1 billion. Over several years, said a Salesforce manager with direct knowledge of the deal. And so here's the takeaway. Salesforce is in talk with Google, Microsoft and Oracle for big cloud deal because they need AI inference. Of course, the deal could be worth more than $1 billion over several years and currently on AWS, but they're bidding it out, according to this reporting. But we'll see what Benioff has to say. Salesforce wants to rent the servers to run its customer management, AI agents and other applications, a sign of how new AI products are expanding Salesforce's computing needs. So obviously Salesforce is stuffing AI in every single product they own. They need inference and they need more servers. So they're going to the hyperscalers and they're bidding it out. Allegedly, Salesforce already uses AWS in addition to Google Cloud and its own data centers. So we don't know who is the who's emerging as the favorite to win. He also didn't specify the size and scope of the agreement. A Salesforce spokesperson declined to comment. But the agreement will be in the same range as Salesforce's past agreements with aws. The negotiations, which haven't previously been reported, signal Salesforce's shift to public cloud providers for more of its computing needs. They're getting out of the data center building business, more or less. That's. Yeah, that's the shtick here. Salesforce has told customers that eventually it will sell its applications through all major cloud providers. AWS didn't comment. Oracle didn't comment. Google didn't comment. No one's talking to the information and.

The information is commenting, though the information is commenting. Stop them.

And we'll go to Marc Benioff because as soon as this dropped, he said the story and the information is incorrect. In 2024, Salesforce explored a fourth deployment option for our customers alongside our existing choices, proprietary data centers, AWS and Alibaba Cloud. Last year, we decided to extend our partnership with Google, giving customers the option to deploy Salesforce customers, 360 apps, Hyperforce agent, Force and Data Cloud on Google's platform in future Salesforce releases. So he's coming out and saying, hey, I'm not rugging aws. I'm expanding, I'm not switching.

Yeah. And I mean, some of these quotes are just damning. I mean, he's saying Clippy was a disaster. Copilot is a gimmick.

Yep.

He's saying, I think this copilot thing has been a huge disaster for them. So he's just publicly dragging them.

So what's going on here. It seems like. It seems like the information is trying to, you know. So a little over at.

Over at Microsoft, Frank Shaw says Mark has no idea what he's talking about. This is 2025. Right after he says, I think this Copilot thing has been a disaster.

Yep.

And Charles, who's over at Microsoft, says one of the execs there working on Copilot, he says this is a big moment for Salesforce because CRM is not going to be the future for customers.

Brutal.

Going to be the strategic imperative for customers. I think that's why you see Salesforce taking jabs at Copilot because there's. That pressure is very real, and it's here. So that was just this month in February, 2025.

So they're going back.

Going back and forth, not mincing words. We love. I mean, we. We called that. We need to get. People in tech need to get more, you know, fired up, combative.

Yeah.

Right.

More physical. More physical altercations.

Yeah.

I want to see. Oh, Mark Benioff and Scotch and Nadella were leaving the club after an altercation. The shirt wrapped.

And honestly, if you're a centi. One of the best things you can do is go prison mode and take shots at a. Take shots at the big dog. Right. Go take shots at a. Yeah. Benioff.

Yeah. This is like the east coast, west coast rap battle.

They say, hey, the lineup this year at Dreamforce.

Sucks, sucks, Slop, slop, Dream slop.

This wouldn't even be on the. You know. You know, the. This wouldn't be on. What. What are some of, like, I haven't been to Coachella. Forget about their stages. This wouldn't even hit the side stage.

Yeah.

At 12 noon.

Yeah.

On Friday at Coachella.

Yeah.

This doesn't even make, you know, garbage. The do Lab. It's not going on the do Lab.

I don't even know what that is, but I get it from context.

You've never been to Coachella.

I've never been to Coachella. I've been to Outside Lands and maybe a few others, but I'm not a big festival guy.

Sometime I'll have to talk about going to. I've been to both weekends of Coachella in the same year, which is Dusty, Dusty, Dusty. That actually kicked off my original fitness arc.

Oh, okay.

That was the catalyst.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think we. I think we did mention that point. And so, yeah, the information is sowing seeds of descent between the hyperscalers. I'd love to see it. There's a Hyperforce rewrite going on. This is interesting. Salesforce has already rewritten the code for its applications, databases and other operating systems to run on AWS services. In a project called Hyperforce, the AWS version of Salesforce's applications became available in 2020. Salesforce intends to make the same applications available on whichever cloud provider it picks in the current negotiations. While Salesforce incurred a significant upfront expense in developing Hyperforcement, making it available on another cloud wouldn't be as costly since roughly 80 to 90% of its code built for AWS would run on other providers. Interesting. So customers of Salesforce want to run on their own clouds. Salesforce needs to do deals to make those clouds happy and get them going. And Benioff wants to keep everyone happy and wants to be able to play all of the different hyperscalers against each other without.

I mean, you can do that if you're throwing billions of dollars around. Every single one of these hyperscalers has like a sales dedicated to Salesforce.

Yeah.

And they're trying to win said business.

Yeah.

But there's. There's been air on Benair, but he.

Has been nagging Microsoft a lot and so that's got to make that negotiation harder. And they also have the most competitive products. So doing a deal to. To.

What's Microsoft's CRM product do they have.

I mean, they have a. They have everything. Yeah, I guess Excel, but I do they have a.

They. So Microsoft Dynamics 365 is there.

I mean, the big, I think the big war is, you know, Slack versus Teams. Teams really crushed Slack and I don't know how you would value Slack as an independent company now post acquisition. But Salesforce bought Slack. And whether or not that was a good deal for Salesforce kind of depends on teams execution. And Teams has become really popular because it's bundled with like the Microsoft Office that goes into like so many different companies. Well, speaking of software to help you run your business, this show is of course supported by Ramp. Our good buddies over at Ramp Time is Money Save. Both easy to use, corporate cards, bill payments, accounting, and a whole lot more all in one.

I'm going to give you an example. So we launched PMF or Die on Monday.

Yep.

And turns out running a 24.7live stream with multiple camera feeds, multiple audio feeds, hundreds of, you know, concurrent viewers streaming on multiple platforms. Very hard. We had to tap in a guy named Sam Sheffer who was at Humane. He was at Humane. On Monday, Humane gets acquired by hp. He decides, I'm not going to go into the AI printer business. Even though kind of, we, we've talked about this. We want a better printer.

I'm excited for better printers.

But so I talked to Sam this morning at I was driving to work, it was 5:30am and so he's coming online. He's on the east coast. You know, Tyler Gold introduced me.

Yep.

I'm like, dude, like you got to help us out. Like we need to level this up. Like we've, we've got all these viewers. Like I think PMF or die has product market fit in the sense that like viewers are super excited about it. Sam's like, I'm down, I gotta go pick up like, you know, basically like my exit package. But after that I'll go. And so he rolled into the PMF for die stream today and, and right as he was headed over there, I just made him a card on Ramp. And I was like, if you need to buy any supplies. And so he gets the invite, downloads the app, adds it to Apple pay, and he can now buy products on our ramp account. Even though he's like a, you know, a contractor. Right. So that level like that, that used to be like so annoying of like, okay, go and get the receipts and we'll reimburse you or we'll pay you. So just so fantastic. And ramp gets it done.

Let's go into, let's go to the the timeline. I want to do this Eric Stromberg post on boot scaling. I thought this was interesting. You flagged this. He writes a little screenshot essay. Eric. If you don't know him, he was at Bedrock with Jeff Lewis, absolute dog of a capital allocator. And Eric writes, traditionally startups raise millions of dollars to start in hundreds to scale. Today AI is giving everyone an army of agents to design, engineer and build on their behalf. Perhaps a deliver so much leverage that founders will raise only one round and be done. Profits will fund from there. This is a comforting idea for seed VCs, but not right. If you can reach 1 million of ARR in 90 days from an apartment, why raise seed money instead? I expect a different strategy to grow. Boot scaling. Founders will bootstrap at the start, leveraging near zero cost of experimentation. They'll only raise after achieving product market fit and building conviction in a venture scale business. At that point, they'll use capital to scale distribution. Yeah, boot scaling allows founders to avoid early dilution while later securing capital to win versus well funded competitors. A prior generation has proven this model works and he flags a few Here. Atlassian, founded in 2002, they first raised money in 2010 they raised 60 million. Qualtrics, founded in 2002, they first Raised in 2012 for 70 million. GitHub founded in 27 or 2007, first raised in 2012. 1Password found in 2005, they raised in 2019. Unity. They started in 22,004, they didn't raise until 2009. And so a lot of these companies that build for a long time independently and then they start doing the growth rounds while skipping those early seed series A rounds. This shift will reshape, reshape the landscape of seed vc. Those stuck in existing structures and clinging to old assumptions will lose to those who adapt. So break it down. What do you think about that? I thought that was.

Yeah. So I mean the obvious example here is PMF or Die. Blake came out, built a few sort of these like AI native apps, like generated so much revenue that he's now building his fourth app in like two years, which he's announcing on PMF or Die tonight.

Yep.

And he did not want to raise money at all for this business because he's like, I have the cash, I don't really need to spend that much money. I have like the equivalent, like just by using Cursor and some of these other AI tools, I have the equivalent of like a bunch of developers that are on demand. And so he's very ambitious with this next business. Like he wants to, you know, he's going to, I'll let him announce it tonight. But it could easily be a multibillion dollar company. He will get to the point where, you know, he could say, yep, I'm going to raise like $20 million at a 200 post and sell 10% of the company. But it's very possible we're going to see a lot more of these businesses that just basically never raise. Right. And that's not necessarily like the good thing for VCs is there's still plenty of businesses. It actually frees up Capital for VCs to invest in these sort of capital capex intensive businesses. Defense tech is a good example.

Foundation model companies.

Yeah, the foundation model AI is bifurcated.

It's like the consumer app companies that are building AI companies need no money to start and then they need money to scale distribution. And then the foundation model companies need a billion dollars up front to do the training run. And then once they have it, they've kind of cornered the market and they have the commodity and then they can just sell it.

Yeah. And so I see more rounds happening where it's like kind of these YC style rounds where it's like, hey, we need 500k so we can. So like if you're working somewhere and you want to quit your job and still be able to have like decent health insurance, maybe, but it's really more so the, the, the, you know, these companies across the board are just getting way less, you know, capital intensive and then simultaneously attention is free. Now if you understand algorithmic feeds, right. Like PMF or die. Another good example, we spent $3,000 producing the video. It should have like a million views at this point. Right.

Super high leverage. And so yeah, if you're a cvc, how does that change your strategy? Do you, do you need to, do you need to go and convince someone who doesn't really need money just to get you like a little allocation and maybe you're the only person you're putting in. You know, maybe, maybe the initial dilution is 1%, but you got your 1% like you're an angel in a larger round, but there just isn't that lead anymore. Or are you just out of the game and, and focusing on growth? Growth, fundraising.

Yeah. I mean VCs will still have the opportunity, you know, basically say sell 10% of your company to me because like I'm going to go to bat and help you win. Right. With distribution on x, you know, LinkedIn, et cetera. Those are maybe tougher sells right now. But that's why YC's product, which is, which is you have to figure out what product to make and you have to make your product, but we are going to help you figure out how to make a company which is really the product of yc.

And also the pressure cooker. And the pressure, the value of YC is you're sitting there listening to some generational entrepreneur, Mark Zuckerberg's on stage and you look over and the guy next to you is coding on the laptop and you're like, I should go ship a feature right now. Like people are grinding and that, and that pressure of seeing everyone else, all your competition move super fast makes you want to move faster. So yeah, yeah, why I see has a bunch of interesting value ads that don't really come in the form of just the money. Yeah, it's fascinating. Well, if you have a money, if you have a business that's throwing off a lot of cash, highly recommend you pick up this beautiful car. Posted by Joe Wisniewski One of my favorite builds for a VIP a PTS911ST with $55,600, $860 in CXX options. Break it down, Jordy. Why did you want to cover this on the show?

So this guy Joe, talked to him before. He works at a dealership I think, in like potentially Memphis. I forget exactly. Somewhere on the other side of America. But he basically, I think he sources the best Porsches, AMGs, Bentleys in the entire country. And so he's constantly sharing these incredible examples. This is one of the best. That silver on tan interior, the sort of heritage interior. I think it's just fantastic. So need to get one of these in my garage at some point. But if you're in the market, go hit up Joe. He's also got an Instagram account with like some of the best car content. And he wears a suit when he's talking about these cars. So he, he respects the cars and says, I'm not just gonna, you know, film this, you know, slop video. I'm gonna. Anyways.

That's great. Okay, well, let's go to this next post by ash. Untapped market. No one has my current dream project opposite a friend.com pendant named foe LLM text to speech. Computer yells at you. Adversarial computing guys. It's on the come up.

I mean, this is sort of what friend.

Yeah, friend is very adversarial.

Adversarial. But it's like, hey, you know, save my life kind of thing.

That's hilarious. And Yannick chimes in. He says, pov. You're smiling for a picture, but unaware that they're debating how to build a computer that yells at you. I love it. That's so funny. Yeah, very, very. Lots of fun opportunities.

I think that the adversarialfriend.com is probably friend.com?

I agree with that. But I think that there is something beautiful in here. Like the story that we kicked this off with about the horrific humanoid robot, as opposed to the friendly Asimo humanoid robot, the computer that yells at you. That is a viral concept that will get a lot of downloads or installs or people testing it out. It'll get you a lot of attention. And then from there you can kind of figure out, okay, what's the real product here? What really has product market fit. And friend.com certainly did that with their market entry. Let's talk about Apple. This week they launched the iPhone 16e. It's $599. This is a big jump up from the 429se. Mark Gurman has had the scoop. And then the breakdown here, he says it has an action Button is in 128, 256 and 512 gig options, black and white color options. IPhone 14 and iPhone SE are discontinued pre orders start on February 21st, 28th for release. And the C1 Apple modem is official. And this was a big story, although it was kind of buried. Mark ehrman says the C1 Apple modem, which is the cellular modem that actually connects to the cellular network normally these are made by Broadcom, I believe is a monumental technical achievement because there's a ton of intellectual property. They're not just like hard, it's like, it's as, it's as complex as making like an Nvidia GPU apparently. And so he says a several billion dollar effort that has been in the works for seven years. In the end, it gets two sentences in the press release and 15 seconds in the announcement video. Apple is clearly downplaying this intentionally.

Daniel, what it do? Yeah, Beth says why?

And Steve says patent cases hinge on how significant a feature is in the whole injunction depends on novelty and criticality. The more words, the more to hang in the inevitable QC litigation on. And so Steve is saying hey, and Steve Sinoski is very sharp. I think he's at Andreessen, but he was I think at Microsoft for a long time and he understands this stuff really well. And he was saying that basically, hey, they, they built this modem, it works and it's going to be able to connect the phones to Starlink, do a whole bunch more stuff. It's just retooling their supply chain gives them a huge advantage on the supply side, but they're going to get sued. And so they can't make too big of a deal out of it because if they do, the lawsuits are going to come for them. That's the thesis here, at least what people are thinking. And so there's another, there's a little bit of extra context here. C1 was birthed from Apple's 1 billion acquisition of intel smartphone modem biz. And 20, 20, 19 C1 is going to give Apple more leverage in carrier negotiations because they say, hey, Verizon, like we, we can be independent, we can use Starlink, we can use whatever and it will allow deeper device integration and better, better battery life. So you know, they'll be able to have a battery life, battery life right up until they release the new phone on the day. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Apple Silicon team is consistently underestimated.

So used to the landline mode now Apple landline.

I like this one.

I actually would like an Apple Charger made from Apple. That's one of those, like, stretchy landline so you can maybe walk around the house.

Yeah. Hp, give me the. Give me the. Give me the printer. The AI printer. Give me the AI landline. These are the things I want here. We got the Polycom on this on the table. But let's move on to a promoted post from Bezel. You can shop over 22,000 luxury watches fully authenticated in house by Bezel's team of experts. A lot of people probably don't know this, but when you buy a watch on Bezel, the person who's selling it doesn't just ship it to you. They actually ship it to Bezel first. And then people at Bezel verify that you're getting a real watch, which is.

I've been to the space.

Yeah.

It's a fortress. And there's just guys nerding out all day long.

Yeah.

And, you know, just making sure that the watch you actually get is legit. And they catch a shocking number. Oh, yeah.

There's so many fakes.

Fakes.

I was Googling for some watches, and I just saw a, like, in Google shopping. It was like, you know, Patek Nautilus, $300. And you click on it, and it's like, it's from, like, a knockoff website. I'm like, how is this even, like, on Google? It's crazy.

Obviously, Google. Google clearly has not made an effort to catch nearly enough fake watches.

Amazon.

Because if you look up. Yeah, if you look up Patek Aquanaut, you know, pull up a.

Some sketchy website.

Yeah. It pulls up these watches that are just objectively, you know, obviously not real.

Yeah.

And Google's happy to put them in front of you.

And so when you buy a watch on Bezel, I'm actually going through this right now. The seller shipped it to Bezel. They received the watch, and I have the update. They've started the authentication process. And so it's very fun. You get a little Domino's pizza tracker, and you get to see exactly where it is in that process, which is very fun. And I also wanted to go through this fun little post that they ripped explaining the Perfect 3 watch collection. Say less. They argue that the Perfect 3 watch collection is a steel sports watch for the everyday flex, a dress watch for closing deals, and a wild card because it's fun. Here's what they're going with. And let us know in the comments what you think about this. They recommend for the everyday flex, a Rolex submariner Hulk reference 116610 LV, which.

Matches our new color.

You might see it in the corner. We're using a beautiful. Is that a Kelly green? I don't even know what that's great question. It's built like a tank. Water resistant to 300 meters. For all the diving you'll never do. Yeah, I need, I need to relax the next time I go diving. I actually scuba dive a lot and somehow it goes with everything. Even though it's bright green for the dress.

Like can we figure out how to underwater pod?

You could do it if you had a rebreather set up.

Scuba diving in a, in a tux.

Yeah. Underwater pod, this would be potentially viral. The the dress watch, they recommend the Cartier tank. Louis Reference WGTA011. Arguably the Cartier to have the tank LC is pure old school elegance. It. This is timeless sophistication at its finest. Perfect for closing deals, sipping negronis or just reminding people you have taste. I love the Cartier tank. I think it's fantastic watch worn by Andy Warhol and Muhammad Ali and Jackie Kennedy and it's just a fantastic watch with a beautiful history. And for the wild card, they recommend the IWC Pilots Watch Chronograph Top Gun. Big, bold, straight out of a fighter jet. This Top Gun Chronos lightweight ceramic case laughs at scratches. The military aesthetic means business. And the Flyback Chrono is just plain old cool.

Great option for hard tech tech founder for sure. You don't know if you're gonna end up in an Apache that day.

Yep. Just so why not pick up a. An IWC Pilots Watch Chronograph Top Gun and so Jordy, you're. You're working on a watch collection. What do you think is going to be next? Any. Anything.

I actually need it. I need a.

You need a dress watch tank would be great. I still think JLC Ultra thin would be really good. Yeah, I think there's a lot of.

Good options or, or of some sort or.

Yeah. But anyways, I think the 222 is the Vacheron that you're gonna wind up with.

That's. That's the only one that I actually want.

It's like so good.

Sometimes in life you have.

Yeah.

You sort of justify, you know, purchases that are adjacent to the thing that you actually want. But you need to just, just look in your heart and understand what it is you actually want and figure out a way to get that thing.

Exactly. Well, let's go to Zach. He says the mission of Aura make it easier, more beautiful, and more customizable to share your workouts with the world. Hundreds of millions of people use apps like Strava, Nike Run Club to track their workouts. Tens of millions use apps like Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok to share their workouts. His goal is to start giving creative tools so that second behavior sharing becomes an art form of its own. And as a byproduct, I believe if you make training more creative and public athletes want to train more.

So Zach is based in New York City, operating under the pmf, or dime mentality. Right now working on Aura, which is a new app. John already said it, but it's basically think about, yeah, a workout app that makes these sort of beautiful graphics so that you can share your progress. A lot of running is a sort of, like, communal activity. Everybody's sort of pushing themselves independently. And Zach has, you know, a million plus followers on Instagram, wants to build a product for himself and them to just be able to share their. Their training more. And I'm super excited to see it. I don't run much myself. We should go over to New York and just go for a run with Zach and just get absolutely smoked. But we're getting a treadmill in the cage for PMF or die. Okay. And so we'll have to have Zach go on a Tesla app in there. So love to see it. Excited to see Zach roll this out.

Yeah. So good luck to him as he builds this app. We'd love to see it. Let's go over to Andreessen Horowitz. Chris Dixon was on a podcast with their head of growth, David George, talking about what will happen in the world of AI just to the Internet and just to websites, which I thought was very interesting because everyone jumps to Terminator or complete job loss. Chris is thinking in the future, but not so far in the future, about something that seems like a very real possibility. So he says, what happens to the billions of websites if they aren't getting traffic? AI isn't just disrupting search. It's changing the Internet's economic model. For decades, websites provided platforms with content in exchange for traffic. This was the covenant, as he puts it. AI flips this content fuels its model, but traffic doesn't always flow back. So historically, on the Internet, the beautiful thing is that if you had great content, the traffic would show up, The Google search crawler would find you. You would go viral on LinkedIn or Facebook.

Stumble upon.

Yeah, stumble upon. Twitter used to link out Those things have stopped. And then the LLMs will just give people answers directly. So as users turn to AI for answers instead of the traditional search, control is becoming increasingly concentrated in the hands of a few dominant systems. He's worried about the future of the Internet and what this shift means for creators. To address this, he asks, what new incentive structures or architectures should we be thinking about? And so he's not saying, hey, we got to ban AI, he's just saying that, you know, there needs to be a new deal for content creators. And what does that look like, whether that's, whether that's a content. We talked about this, like the content licensing model from the LLM. Like, if you are really great at crafting recipes at a superhuman level, you craft them and then, yes, you only get one hit from the OpenAI scraper and one hit from the anthropic scraper, but that one hit is then you're basically on like a YouTube style creator fund where they split the profits with you and they're saying, yeah, we're taking your content, we are training our model on it. But, but when we, when someone asked for this recipe, we used 50% of yours and then 50% of someone else's. And so, yeah, we're going to send you, you know, a couple cents for every query that we turned over. And there's this abstraction layer, but we're still paying you somehow. And that would definitely keep the economic model in place, I'm sure. Chris, as the head of Andreessen crypto and massive crypto investor, former number one on the Midas list, has a bunch of ideas for how crypto can be involved in that. He doesn't explicitly break that down in this clip, but, but, you know, he's thinking about that as well. What was your take?

Yeah, I'm excited to see, you know, crypto is entering a new regulatory regime. Right. Start starts with a bang. A few days before David Sachs gets into his official position as crypto czar, we have presidential meme coins coming out. And so this new administration will seemingly be getting, you know, trying to get innovative around the actual regulations that have been in many ways forcing the cryptocurrency industry to orient around meme coins. Right. If you can't invest in value, because oftentimes, you know, many of these tokens couldn't be tied to cash flow or anything like that. So if that changes, which, you know, we're, we're all sort of waiting around to see, there's going to be so many new actual ways for Companies that operate on chain to like generate revenue outside of trading. And so Andreessen crypto has been making a bunch of bets, like sort of betting that this will eventually happen. And I'm just excited to see like, you know, I, I expect that Chris Dixon is like actively working with Sachs and, and many of the other people, you know, in the White House admin to try to figure out how to influence this policy to fully unlock crypto's potential.

Right.

Because it's been handicapped for years and years and years by the regulatory environment and not, not, not allowing like the, the most exciting use cases to flourish.

Yeah, yeah. I, I always think it's interesting Chris's framing. Like he is somewhat an early entrepreneur in like kind of post.com era, started two companies, sold them both has been deeply involved in like the early Internet and these like weird, like he, I'm pretty sure he did the Oculus Seed deal or like a very early Oculus deal. He did some drone companies, Skydio. I sat on a board with him for a number of years, worked with him very closely and really enjoyed that. And he also backed Kickstarter and a bunch of like crazy like he's really close with Fred Wilson and the USB guys. And so he sees the Internet as something that's valuable by itself, like to humanity. And he has a real reverence for Internet communities. A lot of his investing thesis early on was like find. I think he had some quote like, like what people do on the, on the Internet on the weekends will be your job in five years. Something like that. And I thought that was very interesting. And so he's, he's very driven to maintain what is great about the Internet. Well, anyway, let's go to how startups are changing. Anthony Papliano says the real flex is raising as little money as possible for your startup and success succeeding with the smallest team necessary. I thought that was interesting post because are we in the business of flexing? Like does it matter? Does it matter if you build a massive business with 10,000 employees or 100 employees? Like, I guess it's always impressive when you see a high revenue per dollar or revenue per employee number. But at the end of the day it's cool. But it cap is the only thing that matters really. And like, and like durable market cap and durable value and durable cash flow and how you get there. Like Amazon has an order of magnitude more employees than Google. I'm pretty sure.

Yeah.

Because Amazon employs people that do pick and pack.

I think the revenue per employee is always a fascinating metric. To look at. It's always, it can be very impressive. If you look at tether. Right. I think they do like $8 million of net income per employee or something like multiples of what that's crazy blackrock does or these sort of more legacy financial institutions and you see cursor with 30 employees, you know, multi billion dollar valuation. So I, I think it's awesome. I, I, you know I, I think that but, but you know I think pomp is probably just like baiting people a little bit here. And ultimately it shouldn't be what, what you fixate on early. It's how do we build a really massive durable company.

Yeah. Many paths to success and it kind of depends on what kind of company you want to run. Like some people want to have the small like David Holes mid journey. He hasn't raised a lot of money. He hasn't hired that many people. Clearly he wants to run this lab and this product that's like very dedicated user base, very profitable. Yeah but he's not, he's not like in this take over the world like raise as much money, do the deal with Masa, build the data center like immediately. I think he's, I think he's building what he wants and it's more about finding the ikigai or like the life's work that aligns with you. But anyway, let's move on to wander. Find your happy place. Book a wander with inspiring views, hotel grade amenities, dream beds, top tier cleaning and 247 concierge service. It's a vacation home, but better head over to wander.com. they're given $400 off your spring trip with spring 400. And there's a beautiful photo of a wander in Rockaway Beach, Oregon. I've never been there, but that looks fantastic. So crazy that check it out.

Like every single one of their homes looks like that. I know we wanna, so I really want to partner with Wander for the, for the. You know, if we do a season two of pmf, they have this private island somewhere in Florida that's.

Yeah, that would just be really cool.

Absolutely perfect to you know, pick up the drawbridge.

Yeah.

Lock them on the island.

Yep.

If you want to leave you can, but you gotta swim.

Yep.

You know, a few miles.

Yeah, it's great. Head on over to wander and check it out if you're looking for your next vacation home while you're traveling. Did you see this one from Overfit Quantitative Strategies? Great meme account. Good watermark on this. I don't know if we can pull this up here. But says choose your Silicon Valley Think boy. Mark writes more manifestos than gender neutral communist undergrad. It's time to build. But not in his backyard is a techno optimistic. He shills meme coins. Brian injects his son's blood to stay eternally young. Goern lives in the woods and on a 12k income. Sammo San Francisco's Rasputin Andrew cumulative probabilities Final boss. Yes, Anon. No coffee, no alcohol, no medication in the morning. Meditation in the morning. Do you enjoy life? It's very. I don't know. I don't. I don't even understand that. Naval writes Facebook captions but for millennial Tech Bros Instead of boomers. Mark. His career at Oracle taught him that software can be a more profitable racket. Paul must be in founder mode.

Reading Naval's reading list is the Airport Books hall of Fame. I feel like part of that is when he recommends a book, it probably goes into the airport.

Yeah.

Because he actually does have a massive audience. But who knows?

It's very silly. Very, very silly. But you know, you love to see some wojacks from the guys you know and love the guys you know and love. And a lot, a lot of good, a lot of good content from these guys. I don't know. I think this is a fun, silly little, silly little post. Having fun, poking fun. Some of the legends in Silicon Valley. You go on door cash and you're drowning in E girls, he says. Anyway, let's go to Trey Stevens. He is hosting an event in San Francisco. If you're in there, you should, should check it out, he says. A little over two years ago, Marky Wagner and I published an essay in Pirate Wire's Child entitled Choose Good Quest that blew up way more than I was expecting. I was also surprised that more than a few readers were able to read between the lines to see the theological underpinnings of the central argument. I'll be giving a Talk hosted by Acts 17 and Gary Tan on the evening of March 6th in San Francisco in which I'll draw out the explicit theological message and its implications on how we think about our quest. Guests in Tech Invite link in thread below should be fun. And so if you're in SF, go check it out. I think it's $50 to attend and some absolute killers in Silicon Valley attending this. I talked to Trey's wife yesterday who is organizing the event, and the lineup for the speaker series is fantastic.

And just the people that'll be in this room could probably put Together a five billion dollar round with a few texts. So good room to be in and fantastic topic.

Yeah. Yeah, it is a very. It's a great post. If you haven't read it, read it. The good Quest idea is trying to answer this question of yeah, what should you do? Where, where, where do you fit in within the messy world of Silicon Valley? Is it an employee at a company that's working on something that you really think is extremely valuable? Is it founding a company? Whatever you, you choose. He kind of lays out a framework for thinking about that and it's, it's a rallying cross try for, for young, for young folks in Silicon Valley. And I really enjoyed the piece. So go check it out. Let's go over to Guillermo Rowe Roush. I need to learn how to pronounce his name. Guillermo. Ed Vercel, we love him. He says inherent to founder mode is the courage to be disliked. For a founder, the mission, customer and product reigns supreme. Effective leadership is not about making everyone at your company happy or producing the average of everyone's opinions. It's about doing what's right. Great post, great post. Very inspiring. We love Guillermo. Yeah, I mean that really is the distillation of founder mode and also going direct. It's like this authenticity and not being afraid of cancellation or just negative thoughts.

That's the pressure of being a CEO. You're trying to make your customers happy, your team happy, the media happy, other shareholders, whatever, you know, partners, infrastructure providers. Like you're never going to make everybody happy. And so he's saying don't try to make everybody happy. Try to try to do what's right, you know, generally for the company and, and you know, usually it'll net out to being what's right for, for everybody else in the long run at least.

Yeah. And I love Juan from Ramp chiming in here. Well said, Guillermo. Many people dislike me, probably because I'm so founder mode because he's, he's been posting day 99 of asking ramp for a raise.

He's getting the raise.

I think once he gets to day 90, we need to get Ramp to put him in the cage. Put him in a cage. If he can livestream for 90 days and add a million of ARR to Ramp, then he gets his raise. But I think the first 90 days of asking for a raise were just the warm up for him.

Totally.

He's not grinding hard enough. You're unnoticed, John. Good luck. Let's go to Andrew Ross Sorkin. Have you read Too Big to Fail the book or Seen the movie. It was adapted into a documentary. Yeah. Andrew Ross Sorkin, mass monster noted. Noted mass monster wrote about his run at the Arnold. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's see it. Let's watch Andrew Ross Sorkin get diced. Let's see him. I want to see his traps eating his head. Some Death Star delts. I want to see him on some gear, get some D ball, some Anavar, some test.

Yeah. Andrew, come on the show. Let's talk about your stack.

Yeah, let's get you Too Big to Fail. But you know, Andrew Rossorgan's a fantastic interviewer and the book is fantastic. If you haven't read it, it's a breakdown of what happened during the housing crisis, the 2008 global financial crisis. And he's been working on a follow up Book, 1929 for the past eight years. He's been working on a follow up to his book Too Big to Fail. He's been, it's written as what he thinks of it as a sequel, a prequel, a nonfiction character driven behind the scenes account of 1929, the year the most infamous market crash of all time happened. It'll be out in October, but you can pre order it now. I will definitely be reading that. That sounds fascinating. I know the Great Depression and I know about 1929 and a lot of the anecdotes. I don't know the character driven story behind it. I can't name the guy who lost it all or the person that made it through. It's very abstract to me and so I'm sure this will be a fantastic read. He's a great writer, great reporter and you know, go check it out. If you're looking for your next book, let's go to VC Braggs. You want to check out this one?

I had to throw this in.

Leaked image of the latest Humane Ink product from HP printer division. You put on the pin and it tells you the toner's low. This would be helpful for us because our toner is low all the time. Okay, enough trash talk about printers. Printers are back. This is important technology, folks.

Yeah, we got a. I hope that they roll this out. I mean it's actually, it's actually smart for HP to say, hey, you know, a lot of these other companies, I'm sure a bunch of the best people at Humane are already taking offers from a number of great companies. But still, for Humane to add the Humane product, while it didn't solve a critical need for consumers, it was very cool tech, like the tech itself was great. And so I'M excited to see what they do. Maybe this was HP's way. They probably know at this point that we run on a brother USA printer. This is their way to kind of just get on our radar and say, hey, why don't you bring your posts over to a powerhouse HP printer will give you a pin that allows you to better interact with your device.

I mean, what is the bull case for the HP Humane acquisition? I think there's probably two that I can think of off the top of my head. Maybe you can think of a few others. One is there might be some sort of industrial or B2B application where you go and you give these pins to a workforce where they're in a medical environment or industrial environment and they need to be hands free. And you sell these pins into this one workforce and it's highly specified, highly specific. And so I'm, I don't know, I'm imagining like I pick up an Amazon package and then the, the micro projector just projects exactly what I need to do with it onto the package. I don't know, something like that.

We know that they actually got bought by the print. Like it wasn't actually.

No, no, no, no, no. People are just. They got bought by hp.

Yeah.

And HP is just known for printers now, but they do make other stuff. Like it's Hewlett Packard, it's like a big company.

Yeah.

But the other thing is that if.

They'Re doing still make computers.

Yeah, of course. And the other thing is that they might be in an IBM type arc where they're going to wind up doing more consulting and they actually have some.

Good looking desktop computers.

Let's go. And if I'm working with HP on some sort of project and you're saying I have two options on your staff. One is the person who designed the latest HP printer and the other person is the person who designed the Humane pen.

I actually have, I think the design.

Language is better on the pen.

I have hp.com pulled up. They have, what do they have? Their printers which they highlight first, so clearly important. And they have their PCs, desktops and they have monitors and accessories. So it's totally possible that what Humane built is actually super relevant to their monitors. They're like cameras, mounted cameras. Right. You could imagine a world where you just go like that and it like shuts you your computer off. And like Humane was like focused on using gestures to control devices and so stuff like that. It would be cool if I go like that to my app. You know, maybe I can, maybe I Can't. But just being able to go like that, turn off my computer, you know, clap, turn it on. All the stuff that Humane was kind of working on.

Yeah, I heard some theory that they, the, the company was bought for 100 million and they might have had around 100 million left in the bank because the company kind of failed pretty quickly post launch. And so it's possible that it was kind of like almost more like an aqua hire. And you just get a bunch of people that are, you know, surely they didn't, they didn't solve the overall product in a way that was cohesive, in a way that could actually gain traction. But they clearly have great people who work on projectors, great people who work on batteries. They have great people who work on all these different things. And so you can deploy those people into the different arms of HP and it seems like it could be a good deal. And one of the, one of the Humane guys is working on PMF or dynamite, which is great. HP couldn't lock him down.

That's why shutdowns are good sometimes because it frees up super talented people that just go work on new things.

Yeah, maybe, maybe HP should start a live streaming division.

Hp. Hp. If you want to sponsor a live stream where guys code all day long, work out shirtless and jeans, send some printers over. Yeah, yeah, it's great.

Well speaking of gadgets, these ones didn't fail. Nat Friedman says what's your favorite new gadget? And there's a couple interesting ones on here. Unifi AI key is the top result locally embeds your camera feeds. Not yet mind blowing but that's a software update away. And he and Nat Freeman says he got one of those and it's really promising. Kyle Russell, buddy of mine says still, still the Ray Ban meadows he got last summer. So he's a DAU of those I guess or regular driver of those. We both kind of of churned from them but I, I think we're pretty optimistic about them as a product long term. And then there's some other people that chime in. One guy says a dad bike the turn GSD S10. It has room for the kids in the back which is kind of cool. And it also has electric boost. Thought that was fun. Matt Mullenweg chimes in and says really digging the daylight co like a Kindle meets iPad. Allows for lifestyle.

Actually I'm an investor in Daylight.

Yeah, you said it was cool.

We gotta get one for the set. It's basically mimics paper really well. So the Same feeling of using a Kindle, but you can navigate the Internet, have a browser, et cetera.

Spencer Bratman says the things he uses daily are an Ember mug. Have you ever seen those?

I have an Andreessen Ember mug.

Oh, you do?

Yeah.

He has his AirPod Max 8 sleep. Of course. Love it. An aura frame, which is kind of cool. It's like a picture frame that you can upload photos to a juicer. Vision. He uses the Vision Pro. No way. I'm surprised by that. Whoop. Pretty good for tracking sleep. Haven't seen that. Another daylight co Shout out. This hackable E Ink watch is kind of interesting. The SQFMI watchy. Not to use as a watch, but to wear at night to detect movement past a certain hour and wake me up more naturally. Cheap, easy to code. So a little bit hacker stuff going on there. That was fun. It was a good, like, little. Hey, let's get some community engagement from that. And, you know, I'm sure Nat's cooking up the next idea for, you know, some sort of side project. Put some. Put some kid on it. Well, let's go to Nikita. Nikita. Beer says, ladies and gentlemen, the king has been dethroned because Grok AI is now the number one app in the App Store under Free Apps, all apps. And is 1 above. Is 1 above ChatGPT. And he attaches a meme from a high school yearbook quote that says, it is not enough that I should succeed, Others should fail.

And this is from Kevin Chang. The guy. One of the. One of the guys leading the charge at xai.

We really.

Yeah.

No way. Real quote. That's hilarious. I had no idea that was actually him. That's so funny.

What I love about the screenshot. Deep. Deep seeks nowhere to be seen.

Yep.

They're probably thinking about. I got to get on intro. I gotta hire. I gotta hire Nikita. We gotta go number one again.

Yeah.

And we gotta get Nikita on the inside.

And so how. There's a bunch of. There's a bunch of back and forth here. The App Store ranking doesn't mean anything. And they're just pure vanity. And Nikita says. Wow, major buzz kill, man. So interesting to see. Obviously, we've talked about how the Apple app charts are momentum driven, so it's unclear if Grok usage really is higher than ChatGPT or getting close. But certainly there's a lot of momentum. They just launched Grok 3. There's big news.

I'm 90% certain Nikita helps works on XAI or advising.

Sure.

As well.

Yeah.

That makes Sense makes sense.

Well, let's go back to seed investing. Delian has an interesting post here. He says doing VC full time is a bad setup for seed investing. If you have a company you're working on, any time you spend on VC you're trading against your life's work. So you spend time only with the four to six companies a year that truly matter. If full time, WTF do you fill your day with? A lot of meetings probably. What do you think? But this is another pitch for moving away from full time seed investing. Running around spraying checks around Silicon Valley. What do you think? Is it possible to do it full time? Well.

I think that if you are a VC operating with little to no brand, which is 99% of venture capital firms where they technically have a website and a brand but they're not being sought out by generational founders. I think this works really well for, for Founders Fund where when Founders Fund bids on a company, they can bid lower than everyone else and the founder is still like, yes, I want to work. You know, I just went through that with a company, with one of my portfolio companies that I did, I did the pre seed and when they were raising their Series A, they were even before they started the process being like whatever price Founders Fund bids, you know, within reason, we're going to take it. And they had other tier one offers.

Right.

And so there's like a certain, I think, you know, you're on the inside so you'd be a little too conflicted to say this, but Founders Fund is in a unique position where I wouldn't recommend necessarily the part time strategy to a no name seed VC who's got $50 million to deploy. And it's like you probably should be spending all your time trying to meet founders that aren't coming to you.

Yeah, I think, I think the other takeaway here is just that one of the ways to bootstrap a brand as a seed stage investor is to build a great company. Because then all of a sudden you're meeting founders, they're coming to you for advice and just through the founder network, founder to founder conversations and then you can write seed checks. It doesn't need to be full time. And then over time you can kind of scale that up and take it more seriously. And that's certainly been Delian's experience at Varda. He's met everyone that's relevant in the space industry and seen all the deal flow there. Because even if you're, even if you don't even think of him as a vc, you're going to want to reach out to him just as a fellow founder in the category insane Advantage. Yeah, big advantage helps when you're putting.

Devices up into space.

I mean, there's a lot of advantages going on there. What was funny here is Joe Morrison here chimes in and says your best posts are the ones where you're a little self loathing. And Delian's like, what are you talking about? This is actually like, like he's not gassing myself up, he's gassing himself up. He's basically saying like, I'm doing it perfectly.

I'm goaded.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he's like, don't even try and compete with me.

I love someone else. I'll take the other side to the odds you'll find and lead the seed round of a generational company while working 60 plus hours a week operating are dramatically lower. Darling just says look forward to comparing, contrasting our comparatives at the end of the decade.

Do not, do not try and dunk on deli. There's just been a, it's been a graveyard on X this week of people that tried and got smoked. It's very rough. But, yeah, I mean, when you're a seed investor in Ramp, it's, it's pretty, pretty easy to drive solid returns. He's got a whole bunch of great seed stuff and he's like the main. He does, does a lot of seed stuff. It's great. Well, let's move on to Kim Kardashian.

This is crazy. Yeah, narrative violation.

Okay, so Skims has grown into an absolute powerhouse, closing in on $1 billion in D2C revenue and has raised $730 million, most recently at a multibillion dollar valuation. Kim owns 5% of the company. After raising so much money, they recently did a partnership with Nike. The business is on a tear, but Daniel here asks. Absolutely wild to me. I get it. Amazing and valuable brand. But is it worth it when you own almost none of it? She owns $200 million. So the question, Jordi, is, is, is it worth it to have $200 million? What is $200 million worth? I think it's worth $200 million. Yeah. And so I don't know, what's her opportunity cost? Is she really, is she really putting more than $200 million of effort into this project? Yeah, I don't think so. So I think absolutely it's worth it.

It's more of this perception that people see Skims as a proxy for Kim Kardashian's brand. But the pushback there is that. But if you talk to skims customers, they will say these products are just better than other products that I can get. And it's at a point where you could argue that Kylie Jenner's products, people wouldn't care to use them as much if there wasn't her association. Skims and Kim Kardashian, I think it's different in that they make really good products. She's non operating, she's sort of the face of the brand and, and it's going to net out like if you're going to make hundreds of millions of dollars for being the face of something, that's better than doing a bunch of brand deals for Nike and Lululemon and Alo. And it's going to net out, it's going to net out fine. But it's still the idea that, you know, there's been a lot of press recently around these creator driven holding companies and this idea that just having a big audience will allow you to build a big company in an expensive way. But Kim Kardashian basically has one of the largest single audiences and the most consumer influence of any person in history. And she still needs to raise $730 million to achieve what? Maybe she didn't have to, but she's done that.

Yep.

And yeah, it just goes to show that, you know, I've talked to a bunch of founders recently that think, oh, I'm just going to work with this one influencer and it's going to dramatically change my business or my co founders got, you know, 200,000 followers and it doesn't mean anything because you tap that following pretty quickly. Very quickly.

Yep. And so she is big enough to actually get market entry. But if you run the numbers on the dilution here, you know, seed series A, series B, Series C, 20 dilution rounds. Let's assume she got diluted maybe 75%, I don't even know. But that means that she still only started out with 20% of the company. Company.

Yeah.

And I still think that's a phenomenal trade. I don't think that's crazy because interesting, a non operating role. And what would it take for her to make $200 million in profit otherwise? Yeah, I mean we got, we learned a little bit from the Ethereum Max thing that I think she, she gets paid about a million dollars per like one off brand deal like post or something like that or like partnership. And so you're talking about 200 of those. There's only 200 days in the you know, 200 business day, 250 business days in the year. Like, like all of a sudden she.

Can'T do a post. Five years, a million dollars a post.

No, no, no, no, certainly not. And so even though she's like a huge figure, like this is a great way to monetize her audience, it looks way better for her brand because it builds her brand as a co founder, as a business person, it's more aligned. She only needs to focus on the reputation and products of one company. Whereas if she's, if she's advertising for six different brands, what if one of them has a scandal? What if one of them is making a product and it's low quality, all of a sudden that road's hers. She can just put all of her, all of her eggs in one basket. More or less. Obviously she had her, I think it's a good strategy.

She had her private equity firm that, you know, had a huge fundraising target, didn't come close to achieving it. I think they made one investment in a, like a hot sauce or like a, some hot sauce company.

Yep.

But this goes to show that like, maybe even the strategy of this creator led private equity firm was not even that good of a strategy. If, if, if a, if her primary company had to still raise hundreds of millions of dollars, then maybe, maybe it's not enough, like, maybe it's not enough to be differentiated as a, you know, private equity firm.

Yeah, yeah, very interesting. Anyway, let's move on to X. We got some fundraising news. Katie Roof has a scoop about X. They're thinking about a new financing round that would value it at $44 billion, same as the take private price in 2022. Elon Musk has never done a down round. Not about to start in 2025.

So, so this, this earlier this week on the show we were talking about, if you looked@x.com investors, Washington Post would pull up, Google like Gemini would pull up a summary. Lost all their money, so and so lost 700 million. Sequoia lost, you know, 200 million, et cetera, et cetera. And they didn't ever lose the money. If they would have, if they would have sold it right.

Andreessen.

And so now they're going to be back up. It's great for the employees. X, X had marked down their valuation internally.

Interesting.

So the employees were getting their options, lower options. So they just, they're going to get a nice pop out and I'm sure that Elon will start to allow employees to sell, you know, do these sort.

Of yeah, he's very good about laddering up the valuation, doing the secondary sales, making sure everyone's taken care of. Like, like he is very, very good at that. And yeah, I mean it's interesting because the media was very anti Twitter Axe saying it's not going to, it's going to fall apart, everyone's going to leave, there's going to be no users, all the advertisers are going to leave. Well, we got data from Ramp, that is Ara Kharazian, he's their chief economist. And the economist at Ramp looked at the spend on corporate cars across all the Ramp data showed that advertising on X is increasing. So that was another bull signal. Then we got the leaked financials showing that they might have over $1 billion in EBITDA. And so, yeah, you apply a 44x multiple on EBITDA for a growing tech company, like that's not that crazy. And then we had that great post from Liron Shapira saying everyone was worried that X was not going to even stay online. Well, now you click on X and in one of the new tabs you have access to a cutting edge frontier model. And there's just, you know, live streaming has been taking off. We've been doing really well there on PMF or Daisy and all of my core tech friends are still there. Like there's a lot of craziness and the algorithm changes every week, but it's still fun, it's still the app that I open and for a lot of people that's what their experience is and I don't think it's going away. And so I think Elon's got it.

We are back.

We are back. Well, speaking of PMF or die, I thought this was an interesting post from Will at Shouldn't Speak. He says startups used to be two guys, a laptop and a dream. Just now.

Laptop?

Yeah, just one laptop now he says now it's 50 engineers, $100 million in funding and a full time DC lobbying strategy. What happened? Gang and I just tagged at PMF or die.

Deep Tech happened.

Yeah, deep tech happened. And, and AI, like regulatory capture stuff happened. And just the threat. I mean, honestly, a lot of this happened from Lina Khan. It was like, well, maybe you do need a D.C. lobbying firm if your plan is to sell your company at any point in time. Yeah. And there were just so many different things where there was now, oh, well, if you're not playing in dc, you're not in the big leagues. Maybe you need a government contract. Even if that government Contract isn't going to drive the most profit or the most revenue. It's going to make people take you more seriously. The kind of volunteer narrative pulls over. So there's a lot of different things that make sense and can justify 50 engineers, 100 million in funding, full time DC lobbying strategy. But you can still just do the two guys, two laptops and a dream strategy if you want. And PMF or Die is a great example of that. And we see examples of that on the timeline every single day.

Yeah. The next post from Santi, Genghis Shots, if you can skip to that, was definitely a day of product progress coded talk to users, got Jax time with friends, more users for his product. Lebanon Master. PMF or Die really helps you bring your A game and love to see it. We've seen a lot of people since PMF or Die kicked off posting and just saying, I'm locking in from home and just like putting this on. Because one thing is for certain, if you're building, if you're solo, building an app remotely, the biggest downside, it can be a great lifestyle you've done it with. I've done it everybody. Many people go through phases where they're just sort of building and being able to turn on PMF or Die and just like feel like you're a part of something and have that motivation is awesome. Awesome. So yeah, it's free to lock in, it's free to outwork your peers and we love to see it.

That's great. Well, we have the Arakharazian post here that we should cover because he has the actual real data on what's happening on X with advertisers. He says advertisers were leaving X in January 2025. They came back in droves. Here's the latest from ramp. Last month, 68% of advertisers increased their spending on X. If you're surprised about X's latest valuation, you need to look at this chart and it's from Ramp. It says advertisers were leaving X in January 2025. They came back in droves and you can see the trend month over month. Now people are ramping up. I'm certainly ramping up on X spend and I think a lot of smart companies are because they realize that the AI is going to get better, the targeting is going to get better, the audience is going to get better. Everything is, everything is getting better. So there's a good opportunity. And at the end of the day, these advertising markets, they're just markets. So if there's cheap CPM somewhere, it's going to get sucked up and hoovered up by someone. And so that's the nature of these things. Let's go to Zoomer. Zoomer says SF man hogging the umbrella while his fold out is left out in the rain. Sad. And yeah, we need to bring back some chivalry, some hospitality, some manners. Don't hog the umbrella.

You shouldn't be caught dead under an umbrella. If you're, if your girlfriend, wife is using a jacket to cover herself. Yep, terrible. Look, this, this is a career ending, you know, picture potentially. So hopefully the guy's not identified.

Yep.

You don't want to document, to fade into.

But if this is you, you're on notice. You gotta, you gotta have better umbrella etiquette for sure. And better etiquette in general across the Internet, across the real world. Hold the doors, use the correct forks. Don't swear, don't swear. What would your mother say?

Don't say the S word, the R word, the F word.

What about the C U C K word? I don't know if we should censor.

We don't say that on the show.

Okay, but we need an alternative to that because I need to fill that in anyway. We're going to Avi Schiffman wrecking yourself. There we go. If you are building in any other industry than love or entertainment, you are wrecking yourself. You are building an abstract. I don't know if I fully believe that it's great that that's what he's doing and I think that's his life work, but I don't know that that's the only option. But engagement friend.

New round at 500 million confirmed. No, I mean, I think, think Avi's like very convicted in what he's doing and I think it's. I think, I think what he's doing building in both love and entertainment in some ways.

Yeah, totally.

Building a digital best friend is a good strategy. I think there's a very real scenario in 10 years where a lot of people, the average person is working less potentially than they are now. We're already at a point where even though lots of people have jobs, they're still working less than they were 30 years than they would have been 30 years ago because half their day is spent on at work is spent on TikTok. Right. Like imagine Jamie Dimon realizing, realizing how much. I'm sure, I'm sure, like they could see through the WI fi Somehow that like 20% of all of our bandwidth is going to like tick tock or something like that. And he's probably just raging, right? But. But yeah. So anyways, we'll see what happens. But it's a good strategy. A lot of founders don't know what they're actually selling. So if you're working on a consumer app, are you selling. Are you selling a love, like something that's solved for loneliness? Are you selling entertainment? I think for us, we talk about. We are in the news and entertainment business. Right. So we're here to deliver the news. We hope to do it in an entertaining way.

Yes.

There's other media brands like Jason Carmen, who's in the inspiration business. He's like, focused on telling these massive stories and following, you know, these trends and inspiring people.

But Jason, if you want to throw in some hot takes and some jokes in the next documentary, we're available.

We're available.

We'll come spice it up.

Spice.

Just all of a sudden, spice up the dog. Serious interview with Elon and then we're just there like, like just, you know, chopping it up. It'd be great. Anyway, let's move on to Kip Mock. We said congratulations to Isaiah Taylor for raising the seed round for his nuclear company. And Kip has been a huge support of the show. We've had him on before, but he shares an awesome picture and he says he's pleased to announce what I've been working on for the last year and looking forward to seeing this project through in the Philippines. So they signed coordinated research project with the Philippine Nuclear Research Institute. Isaiah went all over the world trying to find a hospitable government that would let him build a nuclear reactor very quickly and efficiently. And he found one in the Philippines. And everyone's excited for them to repatriate this technology once they get it up and running, but nothing to put a little fire under. The US Government's behind then saying, hey, we're going to build it internationally if you don't let us build it here. And so you take this to the. The to INL or to the. What is the IRC or nrdc, the National Nuclear Reactor. I don't know the guys who approve nuclear reactors in the United States. Yeah. And you show them, hey, we did it in the Philippines, let us do it here. It's a lot easier than saying, hey, we've never done it anywhere. So I love that they're moving quickly. I love that they're globe trotting and getting stuff done. So congrats to the. To the Valar Atomics team. Once again. And Jordy chimes in, says, absolute legend, making us all proud. We gotta, we gotta bring up more of those phrases, some of those great phrases like gunslinger.

Gunslinger. Yeah, Gunslinger is such a good one.

These are some guns.

Oh yeah, he's a nuclear gunslinger for sure.

Gunslingers.

Anyway, we got a post from Colin Dunn. I've talked to Colin a couple times. We actually have used, used his app Visual Electric to generate, generate like assets for the show at various stages. Very cool product, sort of takes a place of stock footage, allows you to just very efficiently generate, you know, images for various uses, decks, marketing, etc. He says Figma should use their $1 billion breakup fee from Adobe to buy Cursor. Could be their Instagram. Near comments. Another friend of the show says, how do you come up with this price? I don't think that Cursor would sell for anywhere close to 1 billion considering how much their growth right now and access to capital. But Colin would probably push back on that. Say, and say like Figma actually has access to plenty of capital themselves. There could probably be a price. There's always a price, right?

Yeah. And people always forget with these mergers that if you like Instagram, everyone says like, oh, they like, they, they, they sold out for a billion dollars and then Instagram wound up being worth like a hundred billion. So they left a ton on the table and that's a difference. But if you get meta stock in the transaction, then you see upside and if Facebook 10x's. Yeah, it's like you sold for 10 billion because you can just hold.

Well, the other, the other difference is Instagram had no revenue.

Yep.

And Cursor has over nine figures in revenue.

Yeah, it is very different.

And so you could imagine that the, the multiple they would get on that revenue with their current growth and how small the team is would potentially like there's a world where Cursor would do a round in the next year valuing them at 8, 10 billion dollars. Cool idea. I'm sure that Dylan would as, as Dylan I'm sure has looked at a lot of deals like this. Right.

So yeah, yeah, it's interesting. I do think something people miss is that idea of like, like, of like viewing it more as a merger. You get equity in the combined entity and if the combined entity really has a chance to make a serious run at a hyperscaler or a really massive hundred billion plus, you know, enterprise tech company, that could be very, very accretive for you. Even though you quote unquote sold.

Yeah.

Because you have stock in the new entity. And these all, and these all stock deals are like partially stock deals can be, be heavily incentivized towards future growth if you're bullish on the, on the partnership. And speaking of Cursor, we got Ben Lang saying from intern to co founder of the fastest company ever to hit 100 million in ARR. Aman singer Sanger. He's coding at Cursor and just a few years ago he was an intern software engineering intern@you.com.

Okay, so Aman, great name by the way.

Yeah.

Oh yeah, Determinism, right?

He'll be definitely spending nights.

He followed me on X in 2021 while he was intern and so it's so good. Next time an intern follows you DM them immediately and say, I want to lead your next round for sure. That's a, that's the takeaway. You do that 100 times, you might get the next cursor, maybe make it all back.

Maybe. Should we close that with Zoomer?

Zoomer second time on the show today.

This is some news from Google. I haven't fully done a deep dive on this. We'll have to dig into it anytime that there's these new AI announcements.

Google's so bad at micro at marketing, it's actually, it's, it's brutal because like.

They, they did that, they did that thing where they announced the, the AI and they sped up the demo and so now they've like kind of broken trust and no one, you need to validate all these things. It's kind of unclear like how real is this? But Google AI certainly wants you to believe it's real. And we'll see. Today we introduced an AI co scientist system designed to go beyond deep research tools to aid scientists generating novel hypotheses and research strategies. Learn more, including how to join the trusted tester program at Google. And so Zoomer says Google's AI agent independently discovered a new leukemia drug that then successfully tested in vitro at clinical concentrations. A novel liver fibrosis drug targets and bacterial cell level antibiotic mechanisms. It looks like the novel scientific discovery line has been been passed. And Zoomer then follows it up and says the Dwarkesh question of AI insight might has just been solved with a blackboard and a for loop. Interesting. So it's always hard to tell, like you need the scientists to kind of weigh in on this and say like, was this just brute forcing? Was this really novel discovery? People are obviously, you know, very hyped up anytime AI does anything and oh, we just crossed some turing Tests. We, we just crossed some new threshold. ASI is upon us. Kind of unclear how big this is. Whenever I see one of these, I always look to, well, did the market move? You know, what's GDP doing? Right. But GDP is maybe a lagging indicator. But my question is, okay, so there's a massive breakthrough, there's allegedly a massive breakthrough in novel scientific discovery, right?

Yeah.

What did the biotech stocks do? What would you expect them to do? Yeah, and I watched this during, when, when Google at DeepMind, they solved the protein folding problem that was one of the hardest, most intractable, computationally complex problems. Figuring out how proteins fold, very important to drug development. It's something that is, is a cost center, I guess in every drug development, every pharma company. DeepMind solved the protein folding problem with AlphaFold. The market didn't really move. And what it turned out was that yes, it's a really hard problem, but we have machines that do it and we have PhD students that can just kind of run the assays and they, and they do the X. I think it's like X ray crystallography or something like that to run the human based algorithm. And it wasn't a fundamental change in the structure of the profitability of biotech companies. And so the market didn't really move. And so I haven't looked it up. I don't really know. But, but I'm, I'm kind of waiting. But sometimes these, these announcements go out and it takes a while for the public markets to catch up.

Yeah. Trey also says it's definitely difficult to in the chat, he says it's definitely difficult to predict how this shakes out because the in vitro part is quote unquote easy. Most of the failure happens after that.

Yep.

So a lot of the stuff comes out splashy, but then how does it actually roll out?

Exactly. So big questions we'll see. Obviously exciting and definitely like an important track to be working on and very, very cool stuff. And I'm sure that from an AI perspective this was a, you know, a state of the art, like reasoning agent, a co scientist. It's great that they're building this in the same way that Deep Research was great and is still a great product. And I'm excited for this. I'm sure it speeds up people's work, but I probably pump the brakes on the idea of like this is some sort of fundamental shift in how we do science in the world, at least at this point, but.

Well said. Well, speaking of science, healthcare, innovation, our very own Ben. Oh yeah, probably Coming out of surgery right now.

Yeah.

Wish him well. Emergency wisdom teeth.

Yep.

Surgery. Had to get those removed. He's got plenty of wisdom, so we're not too worried about a lack thereof. But Ben was an absolute stud this week. He was basically in pain as of like Tuesday. And it just got worse and worse and worse. Still came into the office, crushed it, still grinded through it.

Yep.

And we're.

And that's why we did not do a Dom Perignon episode. We didn't think it would be fair to be sipping champagne without him. But we did hit 16k on X. So thank you to everyone that's followed us. The growth has been outstanding. We've been really happy to watch.

And as soon as Ben is back in the studio, the Dom will flow.

It will pop. We already have the bottle.

Yeah, it's right there.

Next year, the bottle's ready to go. And so you can expect a Dom episode any day now. And I'm sure that'll be one of the more fun ones. Maybe we'll just do all timeline that day. Just rip it.

Rip a bunch of hot tips for old time sake.

I think so if it takes flow. No, no. You don't want to do a deep dive on a Dom episode. You want to just have fun.

Well said.

Anyway, thanks for listening. Give us 5 stars on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Check out all the sponsors in the description and we will see you tomorrow. Have a great rest of your day.

Have a great Thursday.

Thank you for watching and listening. We appreciate you.