#107 - Robb Wolf: Demystifying Diet with Zero Hunger, Antioxidants & Sodium!

Hi, my name is Jorge Cruise and I'm the number one New York Times bestselling author and leading fitness, nutrition, and peak performance trainer to the world's busiest celebrities. You may have seen my work with Oprah Winfrey, Khloe Kardashian, Tyra Banks, Kelly Clarkson, or even Dr. Oz. My career started because in my early 20s I was out of control and addicted to sweets, carbs and salty snacks, and experts told me to simply count calories to get control. They were wrong. My passion to get control of my hunger led me to find simple ways backed by science that would turn off physical hunger as well as my emotional eating instantly, and I know I can help you too. Welcome to the Jorge Cruise Show. Well, happy Monday! This is Jorge, and welcome to the Jorge Cruise Show. Uh, it is Monday, the 25th of January. I'm super excited. Pardon my voice, it's a little scratchy, but I'm so excited you're here. Uh, this has become the number one podcast for women, really, who want to lose 2 pounds each day. Uh, I don't exclude men, so men, welcome if you're listening, um, being one myself. But I can tell you, my whole career started, uh, 20 years ago with The help of Oprah Winfrey. So I've always leaned into ladies in midlife and I'm super grateful to Oprah for all her support over the many years, both in her magazine, her television show, and then in her book, Guide to Life was awesome. So ladies, welcome. And if you're listening to me right now and you want to drop, you know, 2 pounds each day, you've come to the right podcast. We really have become the number one podcast for radical control over your sugar, carbs, and salty snack foods. That's usually what sabotages that sabotages most women and men. And it's not our fault, it really isn't, because a lot of times in midlife we have stress. And whether it's COVID-19, whether it's financial stress, political stress, family stress, relationship stress, whatever the stress is, we're usually seeking out things that raise serotonin and dopamine. And guess what that is, ladies? It's basically carbohydrates, sugar and carbs. So it's not our fault. And you know, I grew up in an environment where food was love, and I was overweight as a young guy. For me, I totally relate because I grew up where food was love and it was never, "Let's eat protein and let's eat some healthy fats." It was always, "Here, rice. Here, a donut. Here, a cookie." And the list goes on and on, and sugary drinks and whatever, all that. So I've written many books on this topic. I've written books that also are on exercise, and on today's show, I have a really incredible must-hear interview for 2021 with Robb Wolf. He's a New York Times bestselling author. He is literally not just a biochemist, but he's also really an expert in paleolithic nutrition, which is how our ancestors ate. And today we're going to talk about not just about how Zero Hunger Water, which is a, you know, a simple recipe that, um, that you can actually have here on Thursday, which is going to be great because there's two ways to get it. You can get it at my website, zerohungerplan.com, but you can also pick up Woman's Woman's World magazine. It'll be out this Thursday. It's actually the February 8th issue, but it's out a week early, and it's a Super Bowl cover with one of my buddies, David, from QVC. You guys know him, he's an incredible cook and chef and all that. And he has on the cover— I saw a sneak peek of it— he has nachos, my favorite. So believe me, there's even a way to eat nachos on this plan, our plan, and still lose 2 pounds each day. But if you pick up Woman's World, my client Sandy, she's become a dear friend as well and helps on all all our challenges. We're doing one right now. Sandy is incredible, but she has lost so much weight. She's lost 93 pounds. I think she's lost now 94 pounds. And shout out to Sandy, but she is just gorgeous. And she's 58 years young, a grandmother, which I don't know how she did it so quick, 'cause I'm still a dad of 2 sons. I have my 16-year-old son and 14-year-old Parker and Owen, but they're not that old yet. I hope not. But, you know, Sandy talks in the magazine how she did it. But more importantly, why I think you should pick it up is you'll get the Zero Hunger Water recipe. They'll tell you exactly how to make it. It also gives you a meal planner, so you'll know what to eat when you, when you kind of close what I call your zero hunger window. And on today's show, I sit down with Robb Wolf. Robb Wolf is this incredible expert. We're going to talk about nutrition. We're going to talk about why sodium also turns off hunger by suppressing the stress hormone cortisol. We're going to also jump around, talk about, is, you know, things like oxalate-rich foods like spinach and kale. Do they cause issues and with joint issues, kidney stones. We're going to answer a lot of your questions because that was a big issue a lot of clients had was about kidney stones, and they were concerned that a fasting diet, which is kind of what zero hunger is— I don't call it that, we call it a zero hunger window, not a fasting window— but the zero hunger window, you know, when you, when you close it, you usually eat a high-fat, high-protein diet. And a lot of people think, oh, you know, that can lead to kidney stones and, and all that. It's not true. You're going to find out how things like spinach and oil can actually lead to kidney stones and even gout, and how certain plant-based sites can cause these diseases, which is shocking, right? We're also going to talk about alkaline, alkaline water, and if it's a waste of money. So if you're buying that, you want to listen, guys. And then we're going to talk about strength training, because this is how I started my career back with Oprah back 20 years ago. My first book came out, Eat Minutes in the Morning, and sarcopenia, which is age-related loss of muscle mass, is such a big issue with the clients I work with, you know, it's all women over 50 usually. I was working last year with the Housewives of New York, both Sonja Morgan and Dorinda Medley, and then Countess Luann. They're all in that age group. And this loss of muscle also causes a loss of bone mass. And Rob and I talk about that— that is the number one killer of most people when they, when they die is sarcopenia. And that's just a fancy way to say you lose muscle mass, which also means your immune system gets weak. It's pretty sad. And we How do we fix it? We share with you the solution. It's resistance training. So this is a great show for anyone in midlife that wants to take a total transformation in 2021. You gotta listen to it. So, uh, before we jump into the show though, and before I bring out Rob, uh, was we did the interview this morning. Um, I have to thank our sponsors. Now, one of our sponsors is Rob's company. So full disclosure here, Elemental Labs. We're brought to you by Elemental Labs. And what Robb Wolf is doing is giving us all a box of his incredible electrolytes. So as much as you may want to save money and get the Woman's World magazine and make the water recipe on your own, the Zero Hunger water recipe, which you can, just 3 simple ingredients. You can also sign up for the Zero Hunger newsletter at zerohungerplan.com to get the recipe if you don't want to wait till Thursday. But I would wait for Thursday, get it on Thursday. It's in newsstands everywhere. But if you're like me, a little busy, then Robb Wolf is your best friend because his little packets have the ideal ratio of sodium, magnesium, and potassium to turn off and suppress hunger. And that is what we use. And I use these, uh, when I'm in a rush, they're on the go, they're easy to tear, they're delicious. He has all these different varieties and flavors from citrus to lemon to like a raspberry. He's got a chocolate one, which I use every night. And you're basically getting a free box of these. It's a $45 value for free when you order a value bundle. Let me give you the URL. You simply go to drinkelement.com/jorge, and that's D-R-I-N-K lmnt.com/jorgecruise. We're also brought to you by Julienne Bakery, and they make the most delicious baked goods, from bread that I love, uh, to cookies like chocolate chip, to brownies, to— they make mixes that you can make at home of pizza crusts. And the great thing is these are not high in carbs and not— they barely have any sugar, if any at all. They also sell things like monk fruit in liquid and powder form, which I use to make the Zero Hunger Water. If you're going to make it from scratch using our recipe from Woman's World, which is out this Thursday, um, and I can tell you their products are delicious, 100% amazing stuff. Check them out because they're going to give us 10% off for exclusive listeners of our podcast. The checkout coupon code is Jorge Cruise, one word. The website is julianbakery.com. Let me spell Julian for you, it's J-U-L- I-A-N, then the word bakery.com. And then the checkout code, coupon code is Jorge Cruise, all one word. And if you don't know how to spell my name, shame on you. No, I'm joking. J-O-R-G-E-C-R-U-I-S-E. All right, and finally, we're brought to you by Zero Hunger Plan. That's my website, and I'm honored always to sponsor our show because we have a challenge starting in February. It's our next challenge. We're wrapping up week, or starting, I should say, we're starting week 2 tonight. For my clients that are part of the current challenge, and you can't join us. I know a lot of you are like, "Well, Jorge, I wanna get in." Well, you're on the wait list for the next one. We'll be sending all that out. But if you wanna learn more about how to drop 2 pounds a day, this is the website, this is your headquarters. Check out zerohungerplan.com. You'll learn everything, you can sign up for the newsletter. So if you wanna get the recipe for the water sooner, you can get it for free. And like I said, please check out Woman's World magazine this Thursday though. Uh, the COVID issue is the Super Bowl. It's got David from QVC on the COVID but more importantly, it's got our Zero Hunger water recipe on the inside with a meal planner. So literally, you know, it's the exclusive I gave to them because I love Woman's World. They've always been such kind people to me and all my readers read it and get it anywhere. It's in every grocery store in the country this Thursday. Zero Hunger and, and, uh, my client Sandy will be in there. So pick it up, guys. You'll have everything you need because remember, Zero Hunger is not a book yet. No, not yet. I'm working on it. So, super excited for all that, guys. With that said, who is ready? Hopefully you are to listen and meet Robb Wolf. Now, Robb Wolf got inspired with what he's doing. He has an incredible story. He'll retell briefly about his mom and how she had ill health. And it reminds me of my story because I lost my mom back in 1997. She was only 64 years young. The next year, ironically, I was with Oprah, and she missed that, but I know she's always looking down on me and proud of the work I do for all the women that I've been working with that are in midlife for the last 20 years. This is my 20-year anniversary in publishing, so I'm honored. And Rob is also an incredible New York Times bestselling author. His newest book is Wired to Eat, but more importantly, he's going to talk to us about the things we need to hear in midlife, especially for the ladies. This is for you ladies, about how sodium does turn off and suppress the stress hormone cortisol and why Zero Hunger Water works, right? And how certain oxalate-rich foods like spinach and kale can cause literally joint pain, it can cause kidney stones. This is stuff you don't hear about, you know. You're going to hear about alkaline water and how it could be a waste of money, possibly just not, not something critical. And we're going to talk about sarcopenia, which is a fancy word to say age-related loss of muscle which is important because so many of my clients and men, you know, guys and women, we lose muscle from a lack of use, you know. And I'm really grateful that as I record this, I'm standing at my desk. And, you know, hopefully you're doing more standing than sitting. And we talk about all that on today's show. So really get ready, guys, for the most incredible interview. And we kick this off with my first guest of 2021, Mr. Robb Wolf. Let's get started right now. Hey everyone, welcome to a very special, uh, podcast here. I'm so excited, uh, someone who's become a dear friend and is, is not just a fellow author, New York Times bestselling author as well, but I would say one of the leading biochemists out there that understands human nutrition and understands ancestral nutrition from the sake of looking back at our ancestors and and the human blueprint and what it takes to be healthy when we kind of take away all the marketing and we just say, well, what do we have to do to be healthy? And this man has made it his mission. He's on a kind of a big revolution march. He has a Healthy Rebellion. He has an incredible podcast. His name is Robb Wolf. I think he's there. Robb, are you there?

I'm here. How are you, buddy?

Happy New Year. Happy 2021. I have to say it at least once. I can't believe It's already 2021. Can you believe it, buddy?

We wrapped up the longest year in history with now the longest month in history. So it's been interesting.

Doesn't that feel that way? I mean, we were so ready. I remember New Year's Eve and I was like, okay, good, it's a new year. And then now this, this month has been exceptional, right? For, I think, the whole world.

Yeah. Yeah. 2020 or 2021 told 2020, hold my beer, and it upped the game.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know, and I'm really lucky. I've been hanging out with my buddy Tony Robbins recently. He has a comeback kind of a really great seminar, a 5-day event, and he invited me to it. And it's a live event and he's so good. He really talks about us. And I think for everyone listening, I think today's podcast is going to be in that same vein of really giving people, I think, not just inspiration and hope, but a blueprint to keep health easy in 2021. Because I think this is the month, you know, that I'm typically in New York City doing all these talk shows as everyone wants New Year, New You, you know, all this. And whether it's Dr. Oz, the Today Show, all these shows are very interested, as the whole world is, on how do we stay healthy. And, you know, this year is important because as much as COVID is— there's a vaccine and all this, it's still something that not everyone has. And we keep hearing about the death of how many people are dying per minute. And it's overwhelming. And I think on today's show, we're going to talk about, you know, some solutions that, you know, for me, I'm really honored. I shared with you before. Before we went on camera, the Super Bowl edition of February 8th Women's World magazine. I can sneak peek at all you guys, but I can't print it. We can't print it out, but this is it, guys. If you're watching on YouTube, it'll be out next— this week, actually, this Thursday, January 28th. For anyone that— for the ladies out there that if you pick this up, it's the number one newsstand magazine out there. It's like 6 million readers, and they're talking about Zero Hunger Water and how to turn off hunger and have an extended window of intermittent fasting. You know, I usually— recommend 23 hours, and we do a nice hour of a hearty meal like a ribeye, as you and I have talked in past shows. And, you know, we like that high fat, high protein, and a little bit of salt. And obviously we use, you know, healthy water that has the magnesium, potassium, and sodium. You know, I have to tell everyone that my favorite brand is, of course, Element. And we're so grateful to your support for the podcast and to help all our listeners, you know, do this. And I thought maybe we could start with just a recap of who you are, Rob, because I think there's going to be a lot of new listeners, especially this week with Woman's World magazine. We're going to have 6 million people reading this on Thursday, and this podcast will be out all this month, obviously. And, and, uh, I think it's important people understand that as much as you're an author and you're a biochemist and you're an entrepreneur of sorts, you know, to create these radical cool products that taste amazing, you know, I'm, I'm sipping the chocolate one and, you know, I can't tell it's not chocolate milk, and yet there's no sugar in it and there's no milk really, right, Rob? So, right.

Right, right. Yeah, I'm in my little cup of, of Texas freedom. I'm having some chocolate salt too.

So yeah, I love it. I love it. So why don't we start with that? Because obviously, I think today's topic, we're going to talk about how to create a zero hunger window in people's life and why that's so beneficial, this idea of autophagy. And then, you know, my dear friend, uh, Dr. Jason Fung in Toronto, he, he's encouraged all my listeners to consider, depending on their weight and, and their benefits and, and, and their goals, but even doing a 3-day zero hunger window. And I'm currently on one right now. I had my last meal last night on Sunday and I won't be eating till Wednesday. So I have a couple questions because it was brought to my attention when we may want to consider using something like sodium bicarbonate to help balance the acid that could happen. So if anyone knows, I think you're the man that, uh, how many years did you spend as a biochemist? Can you take us back, Rob? Take us back a little bit at your story. And for those not aware of your work, obviously you're, uh, you know, take it all the way to the New York Times bestselling books you've written. But share with us a little bit of your story about maybe you and your mom. And I know that was a key part of what we talked about last time and how that gave you the motivation to help so many people. But you started off kind of— I'll let you tell the story, right? Yeah.

A little over 49 years ago, my parents met and they had a night of indiscretion. And no, no, sorry. But literally, yeah. Well, yesterday was my birthday, so I just turned 49.

Congratulations, buddy. Welcome to 49. I'm 49 too. I know it was your birthday yesterday.

Yeah.

Well, happy birthday to you. Not that you want me to sing, but wow. And I'm turning 50 March 6th. I have 90 days or so. Okay. So a little less. And I think in midlife we get some wisdom. And, but take us back, maybe not 49 years ago, but where was it? In high school, college? What was your— because I know you had different options. And obviously you're on a path now that is helping, you know, millions of people. But tell us a little bit of that story, if you would, just a couple minutes, and then we'll, we'll dive into extended fasting and all that. But go ahead.

Being 49 now, I can tell very long stories so that all of that is happening, but I'll keep this brief. By training, I was a— I did an undergrad in biochemistry, really loved it, love science. I don't get out a lot, not, not a great social life. I like science type stuff. Stuff. And I was really looking at either an MD or a PhD track, mainly in autoimmunity or cancer research. I had a real interest in that. And I ended up developing a case of ulcerative colitis at the age of 26 that was so bad that I could have died from it. I'm about 170 pounds right now. I got down to 125 pounds from malabsorption issues. Like, I was throwing food down.

Describe it for people that may not know the term, because it is, it's a condition where your body Pardon me, that doesn't absorb nutrients, or how does it work? Yeah.

The, the, the gut becomes so inflamed that you just don't absorb things. And it was horribly painful, very debilitating, not fun bathroom visits, you know, so that it, it impacts your life at like every possible corner. And it was very similar what I was experiencing to what my mother had experienced throughout her life. Wow. And it was right around this time that her rheumatologist figured out that she had celiac disease, which is a gluten intolerance, which I also have. And then this interrelated about 7 different autoimmune diseases, lupus, rheumatoid arthritis, arthritis, uh, Sjögren's, and a number of other things. And in doing some research around that, I came on this idea that maybe removing some key foods, particularly grains for the most part, but also potentially dairy and a few other items might really be helpful. And so 22 years ago now, I tried what was then a low-carb paleo type diet. And for me, it was miraculous. Like, it literally saved my life. And for the better part of 22 years, you know, I've tinkered and tried a few things here and there, but I've largely been in this kind of ketogenic space. Over time, I've kind of even gravitated a little bit more towards the carnivore side of things. I have a little bit of fruit. My main main, uh, uh, I guess standard now is whether or not a food works well with me with regards to digestion and also blood glucose response. And so the crazy thing is, so long as I feel good eating it, I eat it. And if I don't, then I don't.

And you listen to your body, right?

Rob? Yeah. Really listen to my body. And for me, I was, I was so sick and I feel so blessed that I was able to get out ahead of that.

Yeah.

That removing these foods is not, has not really been difficult for me because it, it's easy for, for me to remember how sick I was. And it, in some ways, that's almost a blessing because a number of people, they're not that sick. They don't respond that negatively. And so they don't oftentimes have the same kind of like lightning strike moment where they're like, yeah, okay, I can eat this way the rest of my life because I might actually live a long, normal life versus dying young, which is kind of what I was, was, you know, my prospects at that time.

Well, you know, they always say, you know, you know, pressure is what makes diamonds, right? And sometimes you have to hit such a hard time in your life. I know for me, my dad, when I was 18, was diagnosed with prostate cancer and he's given 1 year to live. And that was like a ton of bricks literally crushing our family down. And then a few years later, my mom passed. And that really was for me the motivation to want to make this a path in my life because I didn't want to lose more family. My dad luckily only passed last year at 89. So he not survived but thrived for 30 more years by changing his diet, changing the alkalinity in his diet. He did a lot of therapeutic work with kind of like fasting. He dropped like 80 pounds and really took control of his prostate. He had prostate cancer. So I feel like it's been, you know, it's funny how lemons can become lemonade for all of us sometimes. And, you know, without sugar, hopefully, because it's, it's the sugar can be an issue. But I feel like, take us to where the most recent times where now obviously you have two really incredible books. Wired to Eat is one of one of my favorite, uh, your initial book, Telvern, your initial book that your mentor, Loren, remind me his last name.

Cordain.

Yeah. Yes.

Yeah. So that was the Paleo Solution. And it, it, there really wasn't a paleo diet genre prior to that. Like that book made New York Times bestseller.

You were the first, really.

I was kind of the first person.

What year was that? Take us back.

That was 2010.

Okay. Yeah.

And so things like the Whole30, um, emerged out of that. Like the, the Whole30 folks used to attend my seminars and were good friends and have gone on to, to take their iteration of kind of the lower-carb paleo-type diet and have done an amazing job with it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

No, it's incredible. And I feel like you kind of been on the forefront because this passion of yours has become now a product that I endorse. I recommend it to celebrities. I gift it to people all the time. Your Elemental Labs is like, for us, a very important part of our podcast these days. And I'm grateful to you for that. And it really is a simple formula. And I think we should talk about that because It's how I, you know, I tell people if you want to have zero hunger, you need to drink water that has sodium, about half a teaspoon and a little bit of magnesium potassium. And I give them the way to do that. And this Thursday for anyone listening, if you want the recipe, you gotta pick up Woman's World magazine. They wanted, they wanted the scoop. And I said, well, it's not that complicated to make and, and all that. So you can make it at home. But a lot of people, I think I just honestly don't have time to mix stuff. I think people want on the go. And when I don't have time, which is 90% of the time, I was showing you I have this here at my house with my kids. I have this bowl of— normally it used to be treats, but I have all my Elemental Lab little packets with all the different flavors. But you created this company how many years ago, Rob, would you say?

It was 3 years ago. And you know, the funny thing is we had done something similar to you where we posted online a recipe for how to make your own thing.

A homemade version. Yeah, for sure.

And we had 500,000 downloads of this. Holy shit. And so that was really cool. It was clearly helping people.

Yeah.

But then we started getting tagged on social media where, and this was back in the crazy days when people actually traveled. I don't know how much of this happens now, but— Right.

And this is only 3 years ago or a little bit more?

This is 3, a little bit more when this, the genesis, but the, the, this is what launched the company. But yeah, people started tagging us on social media saying, hey, love the KetoAid, which is what we, we called this stuff then. KetoAid.

I like that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, uh, they, they said, um, TSA didn't like the 3 bags of white powder in my, my suitcase. LOL. You know, and they would show a picture of that.

Yeah. Because you have to push it through, through the, the, uh, what do they call the, uh, the x-rays and all that. Yeah. And it always turns off the alerts, right?

Yes. So then it's always 3 bags of white powder and the TSA is like, what is this, dude? What is this?

Like, it's salt. I'm a chef. I'm a cook. Yeah, I need salt, right?

And so, I mean, we had a— because there, you know, it was a half million people that, that had downloaded this. And then you just look at numbers, you know, like there were a lot of people that were having problems just traveling with it, you know? And so we, we asked that question, would, would like a stick pack convenience, you know, kind of option be, be valuable? And we launched it and we've had reception all the way from like, we are the official hydration sponsor of Team USA Olympic weightlifting. We have several of the Navy SEAL teams that are using the product and, you know, it, and we've had some inroads into different medical scenarios like the POTS community, the postural orthostatic tachycardia community has really benefited from this. Breastfeeding moms have been—

You told us this on the last podcast. So you have all the mommies out there. And I'll tell you, for my clients, whether it's Steve Harvey, a celebrity like that, or someone on Facebook or Instagram, we have a group right now doing a 19-day challenge with us, and we do them usually every month. I would say 50% of the people are using these little packets of yours, you know, because I told them the chocolate is delicious, the citrus one is amazing, and you've created these really delicious salty as you say, as fuck. Pardon my French, but, you know, we'll be French here for a minute. It's kind of fun, but it's also really delicious. I mean, it's, you know, it's like a salty chocolate. It's a salty citrus. It's just super delicious. And, you know, I've been helping people understand through the challenge the whole first week. We call it Eat Fit Week, and we really try to get people to understand that everything you learned about sodium is wrong, you know, because Dr. James D. Nicolantonio, you know, wrote the book, and I know he's a supporter of your work and You guys endorsed each other and he's great. And I think, you know, his book has helped so many of my clients stop pretending that sodium is this villain. Right. And I feel like, talk to us a little bit about that because, you know, as we're doing this right now, this Monday, a lot of my clients until Wednesday are going to, and I did not expect this because I told them, hey, you know, right now the Zero Hunger Plan, you have the option of doing a 1-day window, which most people do. And they have 1 sensible meal a night or a day, whenever they want, usually a ribeye, as you see. You know, in the last show. Um, and I love that because of the ratio of fat to protein and all that. It's super delicious. It's easy. It's done in 10 or 15 minutes max, right? Cook it, you know, a couple minutes on each side. So there's not a problem there. But a lot of the people said, well, what are you doing, Jorge? And I said, well, my coaches— and I, because I have 3 women that are my coaches, they help and they've been through the plan. One of them is the gal in the Woman's World magazine. She lost 93 pounds. Sandy's her name. But I have other other— they're all women, you know, all women in midlife. And, um, you know, they're doing a 3-day window. And I was like, well, you can do that. And I said, you know, I used to be someone that a couple years ago, before Dr. Jason Fung schooled me on how it really is beneficial for— you know, he would, he would tout the benefits of stem cells and immune reset and all these incredible things that anyone who's 49 like me and you now are— we're drawn to you because it's— I'm not doing this to lose 10 pounds anymore. I'm pretty at a healthy weight. People like, aren't you going to get gaunt and look like you're like a skeleton? I was like, well, no, because I'm still eating. It's just for, you know, it's just a 3-day window. And, and I drink my, my, uh, Zero Hunger Magic here. And you guys know this is our official water, so we endorse you too, Rob. So please know that is— I don't know if we're as a big deal as, uh, what was that organization, the, the, the, the one that you mentioned first?

The, uh, USA Weightlifting. Uh, that's huge. That's a cool thing. But I would say you guys are a more significant thing because the, the reach and the respect that you have is, is pretty monumental.

So for women, I think we're up there. But, you know, athletes and now moms— well, you have the moms, the breastfeeding moms, but I got the, the ladies in midlife, and I feel like they want a biohack of sorts that turns off hunger. And shockingly, you know, they'll drink— I'll put it in 32 ounces of water like I am right here. Yeah, you guys are watching this on YouTube, and basically I put one packet in here, and I'll drink this upon rising and have a little coffee later, maybe with a little butter. So that's a good biohack. And, you know, I end up when I'm eating in a 1-day window, a zero-hunger window, you know, I'll eat 1 meal and it's delicious. It's great. I'm fine. But now I'm doing a 3-day. So I think we'll talk about that because I want your thoughts on what has been suggested to me about maybe adding sodium bicarbonate because of the alkalinity issues with keto and all that. And I know there's a— that's a big conversation, but to finish on what we were talking about with your product, I feel like this, this, these little packets you've created make it so simple. Can you share with everyone why you know, not that you're Dr. James here, but you understand salt, you're a biochemist. Why this sodium, this basically it's half a teaspoon or so, or a thousand, as you say on the COVID here, 1,000 milligrams. And then you obviously the potassium, which one's next? Uh, potassium and then magnesium. Maybe we can go through down through the three of these and then we can talk about sodium bicarbonate because that's something, uh, you know, I'm concerned for people. I don't want my clients in mid- life to leach calcium from their bones if they're doing a longer fast. And, you know, they're still eating high protein, high fat. And, you know, there's the issue always of how the urine smells. If you're going into this, you know, it smells— I think Sandy said it best. She said her husband says, oh my God, it sometimes smells like an old diaper in a hot car, you know? And I'm like, oh God. But I want to tell people it's okay. It's not like it's a bad thing. And maybe you can help us understand how that— it's more of the acid and the ketones. Is that what it comes from? Right? Smell at times.

It can be that, that initial transition. Yeah. And you know, the, the reason why we formulated it the way that we did was looking at folks following a whole food-based kind of higher protein ketogenic diet. And because of the cool trackers that we have, we were able to get very pinpoint in what, you know, the protein, carbs, fat, but also the sodium, potassium, magnesium, calcium. And what we found when we averaged all these folks' meals, yeah, was that they were pretty darn good on calcium. They didn't really need to add more calcium. They were pretty good there. They needed a little bit more magnesium, a bit more potassium, but they were really, really deficient in sodium. And so, yes, we literally formulated this to supplement an otherwise good diet. And, and you asked a really good question a little bit earlier about, you know, like why has sodium been demonized? And it, it's the long and short of it is just that we, we all know that highly processed foods are a problem. We tend to overeat them. It's very difficult to say no to them. What, what's the Lay's potato chip tagline? I bet you can't eat just one. And I'll take that bet all day long. You know, these things are engineered to be hyperpalatable and for us to never stop eating them. What's a common feature of virtually all of these highly processed soda. And so we know that if people overeat, there's a tendency to gain weight. When we gain weight, there's a tendency to get high blood pressure. Sodium is a factor in high blood pressure, but this is something that, that, uh, uh, Dr. DeNicolantonio has done such a great job unpacking.

He's incredible. Yeah.

We've studied low sodium diets for 30 years and they don't do anything. They don't do the thing that they're supposed to do, which is lower blood pressure. Yeah. Ironically, what does lower blood pressure is eating lower-carb diets. And there's other ways to do it, but low-carb diets are really, really remarkable in that people just aren't that hungry. They have zero hunger, you know, or it's crazy, right?

But it's true. It's carbs that feed hunger, right? Rob, it really— can you explain that briefly? Because I feel like obviously your product that I use all the time really turns off hunger because of the sodium, obviously. But when we do high carb, and I think Dr. James mentioned how It's more when you have sodium in a high insulin environment, which is a high carb environment, that blood pressure can go up. So it is possible, but you have to put it in that context. And if you're not having a high carb diet, which unfortunately the standard American diet, even though they say protein and they say fat, I mean, they— it's, it's— I hate to say it, but it's kind of sad. It truly is that acronym, but it's kind of a high carb diet, you know, as much as as it says it's not, but maybe tell us why, why, why is it the carbs? You know, I've written so many books on, you know, avoiding carbs and sugars and trying to lower that number, uh, why it raises blood pressure and causes belly fat. I know Dr. Oz and I've talked about that, but it just causes weight gain and obesity. And then we get all these underlying health conditions that put us at risk for, for everything, including COVID now. Right. So talk to us about, from, from your perspective about sugar and carbs and all that. And it's not the snacky, snacky salty snack foods, but it's the snack part, right? It's not the salt. Yes.

Yeah.

The corn and the potatoes, right?

Yeah. And, you know, the carbs— how exciting are corn chips or potato chips if they have no salt on them? They're not, they're not all that exciting. They're like cardboard, you know. And so I guess, you know, two really interesting things to go into would be, say, like the belly fat or visceral fat, and then also the, the blood pressure part. The blood pressure is interesting in that when elev— When insulin is elevated, we also elevate a hormone called aldosterone, and aldosterone causes us to retain sodium. And this is why low sodium but high carb diets don't lower blood pressure, because the insulin levels are still high. And it— and so any amount of salt that you have in your diet, which even in like fruits and vegetables, there's a little bit of sodium, it will hang on to that and you will largely maintain your high blood pressure. And this is one of the things that is oftentimes poo-pooed in lower-carb diets. People will say, well, that first weight you lose is just water weight. It's true. And this is something that can throw people a curve because you're not gonna lose weight at the same speed that you do the first week or two. And that's okay. But that just lost water weight is your cardiovascular disease risk. That is peeing yourself out of high blood pressure. You're losing all of the excess water that makes you puffy and edemic and, and causes the high blood pressure. So when you get the carbohydrate levels appropriate, and this is different from person to person, someone like me, I really have to have my carbohydrates pretty low, or I start seeing my blood pressure go up. Other people can eat more carbs. And so there is latitude in that. And that's where people have to experiment to, to kind of find what works for them. But related to this is that, that kind of belly fat or what, what physicians would call visceral fat, Yes. When you get very high throughput of, of carbohydrates through the liver, in particular liquid carbohydrates, juices, sodas, they overwhelm the liver's ability to process these carbohydrates. And that, that sugar gets converted to fat and stored both in the liver and the tissues around the liver. Yeah. And what's called visceral adiposity. And this is where you can have people that when you, uh, uh, the apple versus pear shape, like they, yeah. Their belly just looks like it's made out of granite. Like it looks solid and hard. They may not even carry that much fat around the rest of their body.

Yeah.

And it's well understood that that visceral fat is very, very dangerous for a host of health conditions because it is very pro-inflammatory.

Wow.

And what we find, one of the interesting things that we find when people follow an appropriate protein, lower carb diet, or doing appropriate like zero hunger windows of of, you know, reduced or no eating is that the first fat that we lose is the visceral fat. It's the fat that is most likely to kill us or cause us problems. So this is why these tools are so incredibly powerful. And I, I think why, you know, we, we keep, even though so many folks in the mainstream kind of medical circles kind of poo-poo these, these, they do these methods. They work, they, they, they work remarkably well. We have to tweak and fiddle them. Not, not one size fits all for everybody,. But as a starting place, they're amazing for helping people to regain their health and lose the weight that they want to lose.

And I think what you've done is you've made it easy. You know, I've tried to make it easy sharing it with Woman's World, this recipe, this homemade version, but share with us the sodium amounts. And because you've come up and, you know, you never hide anything because you put it right on the label, what the, what the recipe is. It's basically straight up 1,000 milligrams of sodium. Tell us, let's start with that maybe, and then we'll go down to magnesium and then we'll do potassium. And we continue. But why 1,000 milligrams? Tell us how that has become a good number. You're the biochemist, and that's equivalent of about half a teaspoon, right, Rob?

Yeah, it's about half a teaspoon if we were to weigh that out. And the thought here is, is again trying to plug the gaps of an otherwise well-formulated, you know, kind of lower-carb diet. And we're hoping that people will get good dietary sources of sodium, also salting their food eating some sardines, eating some olives. These things are all amazing sources of sodium. But when we, when we looked at things, if we added about a gram of sodium, then that was, was, it did kind of two things. It plugged the hole that we had really nicely. And then also depending on how large of a container you have, if we put it in 16 ounces of liquid, it's what's called a hypertonic solution. It is more Uh, it has more stuff dissolved in it than our blood has stuff dissolved in it. And there's reasons to or not to do that depending on athletic situations and whatnot. If you're in about 24 ounces, it is isotonic. So it's the same level of dissolved substances as your blood. And there's reasons why we would or wouldn't do that. And then if you put it in about 32 ounces of water, it's hypotonic. And so we put it together that way too. And this is like our salty, saltier, salty AF, you know, uh, spectrum, but there's kind of performance and medical reasons why you would do one versus the other.

Can you walk us through Bruce? So the, the one, please, I, I, I share with my clients 32.

Yep.

Just because it's voluminous and fills you up and it really, like, if you're feeling like, oh God, I'm hungry, you drink this, you know, whether it takes, I can, I don't wanna say chug it, but I can drink this in 2 minutes.

Yep.

Some people take 20 to 30 minutes and then they truly with 32 ounces of water and with the, uh, the 1,000 milligrams or the gram or the half a teaspoon of salt, they don't feel hungry for 2 to 3 hours. And you've noticed that as well with people that are just trying to control that hunger, right, Rob?

Yeah, it's interesting. Sodium suppresses cortisol production, which is a stress hormone. And it's not that we don't want— we want no cortisol, but we kind of want it at the appropriate times and in the appropriate amounts and whatnot. And And fasting is a bit of a stress and that can be good, but we don't want to add a ton extra to that. And that's where like a little bit of physical activity while fasting is good. Trying to do a CrossFit workout may be too much.

Yeah.

A little bit of coffee while fasting is good. Doing your normal— a lot of people will notice that when they're fasting, their tolerance to things like coffee and tea goes down because they're already in a little bit more of adrenalized state.

And so you lose, I think, uh, what is it, 1/8 of a teaspoon of salt when you drink a cup of coffee? Is it the caffeine? It's a diuretic. I think Dr. James brought that to my attention. I was like, wow. So there's more reason to not be fearful of sodium and, and enjoy a beverage, whether, you know, it's 32 ounces. I like the idea to tell us about the difference between that and the one right below. You said 24 ounces of water.

24 ounces is isotonic and So for the vast majority of people, either the 24 to 32 ounces is the desired range amount. There are a few folks under some circumstances, uh, bodybuilders, power performance athletes, where they will do things called salt loading. And they do benefit from doing this very concentrated, uh, form of sodium. Um, these are very specific situations. And it is the one circumstance that if it's not done appropriately, you can end up with disaster pants.

And so, and I have, I have, uh, over my career have, have done that unintentionally. You know, I'll have, I'll put a whole packet of something with sodium in it in a little small cup.

Yeah.

And then a few minutes later I'm like, oh God, I'm in the bathroom. And explain to everyone that's not a bad thing. It's obviously just not enough water. Right, Rob?

It's not enough water. What it does is it pulls fluid out of our system to, to normalize the amount of fluid relative to sodium in the gastrointestinal tract. And again, some people will habituate to that, uh, uh, bodybuilders or physique athletes when they wanna look super shredded on stage.

They're fine with that. They're like, bring it.

Yeah. They will learn how to sodium load and then get that right. But, um, man, it would be a bummer if you put somebody on an airplane or they've got a, a 3-hour driving commute and they just shotgun down um, you know, a whole thing in a small cup of coffee, and then they, you know, they're pulling over on the side of the road. Yeah. Oh my gosh, find a bathroom.

Yeah, it's just a nightmare. No, I agree. Let's avoid that. Let's always drink it with water. I, I tell everyone, still do 32 ounces. I think you would agree that's a good number for women and men.

98% of people, um, between 24 to 32 ounces is the place to, to play. Yeah. All right.

Yeah. And I love how it does really turn off our hunger, and you explained it so elegantly. It really does impact the cortisol and it helps create that, what would you call it, kind of like a baseline where it doesn't have this, this radical pull on you, where you have more control over your hunger than it does over you. Because I think people do the best to not overeat, but I feel like they, they seem to lose control. And I think that's why this podcast is so important. It gives people that, that hope, that the insights, the little gems on how to get control back, you know. And I think that, that, uh, the 1,000 milligrams is a part of it. Explain now, let's jump to magnesium or potassium. Potassium's next. You have 200 mg of, of, uh, of that, of potassium. Explain how that can help us, because obviously it's very beneficial, the combination of that and then the magnesium as well, right?

Yeah, you know, so we have potassium and magnesium in there because again, when we looked at a, a well-formulated whole food diet that was on the lower carb side.

Sure.

People were just a little deficient in how much we would like to see with that. So really it was just to kind of plug the, the gap on that. Yeah. And an, an interesting thing for folks to keep in mind is it's easier for the kidneys to kind of make things, to sort things out biochemically if we have enough sodium. Mm-hmm. Things get really dangerous if we— potassium is absolutely necessary. Far too many Americans don't get enough potassium because they eat highly processed foods.

Yeah.

But when you shift to more whole foods, naturally you end up with much, much more potassium. And so we kind of take care of that. And again, what we, what we are mainly deficient in, in that story is sodium. And so we're really just trying to, to supplement things in a way so that we get that kind of optimized ratio again, but kind of assuming that folks are eating a more whole food-based diet.

Right, right. So that gives you the, the balance you need. And then finally, with the magnesium, 60 mg. So much smaller. And that's done by design as well. That, I mean, why do we need less of that, Rob, from your opinion? Especially with people listening to our show here where they're doing, you know, a 23 window of not eating and an hour of eating. And then on occasion, we're going to dive into that next, this 3-day window where they're doing that. But why is our— why is magnesium a good friend here? And, and small amounts, obviously It's like a, literally like a little pinch, right? It's small.

Again, we're assuming that folks are getting the bulk of that from the diet. And so we're just adding a little bit there. Also, if we get enough sodium, our body is very good at maintaining, holding onto its magnesium. If you have too low of sodium, you lose a lot of magnesium. And then the third part again is that disaster pants deal where magnesium, too much, the main constituent in most laxatives. Antioxidatives is a magnesium salt. And so we use a magnesium malate, which is one of the most absorbable forms of magnesium, but there are still people out there that are sensitive to magnesium. And so we went conservative on that because, um, we just had this wacky idea. We're not like Procter Gamble where we can sell you, um, uh, Olestra-baked potato chips in a fat that gives you the runs and then sell you Depends and Pampers to solve that, that problem.

You know, we don't have that vertical integration.

So again, there was, there was a thought towards what do folks need and also what is the risk associated, like the gastrointestinal risk of getting too much magnesium. So we, we preferred to err on the conservative side. Yeah.

No, that makes sense. And with potassium, just to back up to that one, because I know we talked about it for a minute already, but I feel like I read a lot about how people who are on a, like on this kind of a diet where they're eating high fat, high protein, and they're doing some fasting, that there could be issues. And I don't know how we want to address this of kidney stones and gout, and I heard potassium can help combat that, right? Is that another reason to have it in, in the beverage as well, uh, at, uh, 200 milligrams? What do you think?

It is. And you know, the, the kidney stone and gout issue is interesting when you really look at that. Um, kidney stones in particular, uh, ironically, like oxalate-rich foods like spinach and kale, yeah, are a major factor in that story. And, and this gets a little bit out in, in the weeds.

Now, you know, you're blowing people's minds here. This is going to be a big part of the, of our talk here because I think Paul Saladino talks about the plant toxicity scale, as you know, and he kind of sings your song here. But would you say it again for anyone that is like, did he just say what I thought he said? Would you say again, Rob? Say it one more time.

Yeah, I really think that it's these more plant-derived oxalate sources that may be the bigger factor in this story. And also For the kidney stones.

And gout too, or no?

And also for gout, but for, for different reasons. But both of them— Tell us.

Okay. Talk, please.

This is your moment. In a situation in which insulin is elevated, if we're hyperinsulinemic, the pathways that are driven towards both urate production, which produces the gout symptoms, and then also the more oxalate-derived kidney stones, because you can get kidney stones from different types of organic salts, but the more oxalate derived, driven salts.

Hey, it's Jorge, and I just wanted to interrupt the show just for a moment to invite you to head on over and sign up for my daily Zero Hunger email that'll give you each day a simple what to eat to get radical control over your sugar, carb, and salty snack food cravings. And if this is something you want to conquer and make a lifestyle, the newsletter is important. It really give you tools every day to keep building that momentum to create a lifestyle where you're in control of sugar and carbs. So if that sounds good, check it out. Simply go to zerohungerplan.com. I'll spell it for you, it's with a Z, Z-E-R-O, zerohungerplan.com, and it's all free. I'll see you there. Let's get back to the show.

Both of those, if If your insulin levels are chronically high, the pathways for those are enhanced. And so you're more likely to get that problem. And wow, I'm not saying don't eat spinach, don't eat kale, but the irony is that when you— we should probably eat it as a condiment and not as a main course is kind of the takeaway.

Don't have a kale salad. I mean, I used to— I mean, no disrespect to my dear friend, Dr. Andy Weil, you know him with True Food. Foods, but he makes the best kale salad at his restaurants. And I used to eat one. I would try to do it every day if I could, because it was so good. But I had inflammation. I felt different. And I feel like he's such a smart guy. I mean, I hope he's not listening to us right now. He's been on the podcast. But why do people make like kale salads?

Who—

not that they misled us with intention, because I know Dr. Wild doesn't do this, but I feel like you get this. I get this. Paul Saladino gets it. Why doesn't— why is it just a few of us that get it?

Because it's not a right or wrong thing. Here's a piece that just gets missed in all this. When the Hadza— it's a hunter-gatherer group in Africa— were studied very extensively, their gut microbiome was analyzed, and what they found is that the Hadza carry bacteria that are oxalate-metabolizing bacteria. They break down oxalate. Oxalates. So the Hadza can eat, you know, greens like crazy and suffer no problems with oxalates because the bacteria are metabolizing the oxalates. In modern Western society, virtually none of us have oxalate-degrading bacteria. So, and there are— so if you look at like Sardinia and you look at certain places in South America, people still have the bacteria to break down oxalates. And this is where it gets so damnably hard to unpack this stuff. One side, like the Paul Saladino side, says oxalates are terrible, plant foods are killing you. And that's maybe true if you're someone like me. I, I was on antibiotics from the age of 13 to 21 for acne. So my gut got nuked. I don't have the bacteria to help me break down those foods.

And you just can't take what some people say, like a probiotic and fix the damage, right, Rob?

It's not that easy, right? I've— it's not that easy. Like, the only thing I haven't done is a fecal transplant, and even in the case of fecal transplant, it's not entirely clear. Like, I would need to go find someone in the Hadza to give me their— you know, it's a really complex thing.

Yeah, like, like a long, a long week and painful.

That's a very long week and a lot. Yeah, and more intimacy with the turkey baster than what I want to have. So yeah, it's, um, yeah, let's not be doing fecal trans—

I mean, people Do do this. The fecal—

I've heard of these fecal transplants. And there are absolutely appropriate medical interventions for that stuff. But this is just something, and I know that this is one of the challenges of why it's so hard to make sense out of this stuff, because there's a lot of detail and a lot of nuance. Um, yeah, Andrew Weil, it would be interesting to run a gut microbiome on him, and I wouldn't be surprised if maybe— would you look— so one, you look at his age, he comes from a generation that didn't have that much exposure to antibiotics. Antibiotics were—

and he's avoided them. He doesn't like them. Yeah. Yeah.

And so I wouldn't be surprised if the, the fact he hasn't been on lots of antibiotics and because of his age, he may have a gut microbiome that handles that stuff just fine. But if you don't, then these things may be problems.

And in today's modern world, I think where you are, you know, you're 49 and I'm 49. I think we've all been exposed to these situations that unintentionally have put us at a place where we can't process these kinds of foods like kale and spinach. Right.

Right.

And, uh, and, and obviously you can tell by simply— would be a way for people to know this.

I mean, obviously definitely noticing like joint pain, like they have something and they notice like some joint pain, um, kind of muscle creakiness and whatnot. And this is one of the, I guess, kind of the interesting features of like a ketogenic or even more of a, uh, a carnivore type diet, like these niggling little joint and muscle aches that people have just had for ages. They're just kind Oh, I'm old, you know, but it's not— my neck is mobile.

And yeah, and it seems like when you remove these foods— what's the broad term for spinach and kale? The— what do we call it again?

The oxalate-containing vegetables.

Or—

sounds very official.

I like that. Let's use that word. It sounds— we're very elegant here and we have to keep it highbrow. But I think that's it, and not so much what we've been told, because most people don't think it's that, you know. They, they would never blame kale or spinach, you know. Beyoncé, she loves kale, you know. She wears a t-shirt, says kale, you know, and she's beautiful and all this, and everyone follows this plant-based revolution. But, but boy, the revolution is crazy. Yes, it's a low-calorie revolution, but boy, it leaves you with exactly that, like creaks and joint issues and inflammation. So, well, that, that's so powerful. And so oddly enough, it's, it's removing, it's removing these kinds of foods more so than just adding potassium to help with kidney stones. And, and it truly is connected to the kidney stones and even gout, right, Rob? These—

Yes.

These highly oxalate— say it for me again.

Oxalate. Yeah.

Oxalate.

These oxalate stones or the, the, the gout story is related to uric acid. And oftentimes people are told to eat a low protein, low animal protein diet because protein sources are rich in purines and pyrimidines, which can get metabolically converted into uric acid. But again, elevated. So the interesting thing again is low protein diets don't fix gout. It kind of dials the intensity down, but it doesn't go away.

Well, let's talk about this because I think some people out there, especially people that are trying to lose weight and are heavy, they can relate or know people that have gout. And traditionally what they're told is what you just said. So how does that not work though? And what does work from your thoughts?

Ironically, and it sounds like a broken record and like we're, we're, we're selling the one true way, but, um, low-carb diets are really, really effective. Effective at addressing gout because it lowers both general inflammation, but also insulin levels. And then the reduced insulin levels tend to reduce that, the metabolic pathway where purines get converted into uric acid. And a really kind of interesting example of a perfect food to flare gout is beer. And beer is problematic because the alcohol elevates insulin very dramatically. And also the yeast that is used to brew beer is super rich in the purines and pyrimidines that are part of the gout backbone, part of the production of uric acid. And so this is where folks will notice that if they drink beer, it is particularly problematic for their gout. I never had gout, but because of my celiac disease, I can't really drink beer. But of all the low-carb, you know, the things that I I miss from eating low carb, I don't miss many things. I do miss beer. Like, I, I, uh, tequila is awesome, but, um, yeah, it was pretty amazing.

Yeah. Yeah. No, I agree. And I feel like, not to get into alcohol right now, but I want to, I want to try to wrap up our mineral conversation here. Uh, we've talked about the Three Amigos here that are in your Elemental Labs product, which I adore. Talk to me about what was brought to my attention, this idea about possibly an extended window. So now let's go there, or an extended zero-hunger window, which could be 3 days, it could be 2 days, definitely a little longer than a day, because that's kind of easy for my clients now. And using, you know, the sodium, half a teaspoon in their water, they do great. They just don't feel hungry and they do great. And so now we go 3 days. It was brought to my attention, this idea of leaching calcium out of bones. And, you know, and so what was mentioned to me that we should consider adding bicarbonate bicarbonate and calcium as mineral number, I guess, you know, if we follow your recipe as the fourth mineral would be bicarbonate. And I don't know how much calcium we'd need, obviously depending on our, on our nutrition, but can we start with bicarbonate? And you know, when should someone consider adding a little bit up to their water, maybe before they do a packet or before they make Zero Hunger Water? When is that necessary? And, and, and is it alkaline water? Just that, Is it just, I mean, I just don't want to say it's Arm Hammer, but it kind of is, or it is, it is.

And the, the acid-base chemistry is really, really complex. And, and it, and I don't want to throw that out there as kind of a dismissal, but no, no, but help us dumb it down a little bit for the everyday listener. Right. The problem that I've had with the acid-base, acid-alkaline story is that our kidneys Kidneys play one role in regulating acid-alkaline status. And okay. pH is super tightly regulated within the body. We will die if the pH goes up a little bit or goes down a little bit. Yeah. And it, it, it is very tightly buffered both in the kidneys and interestingly at the lungs. When we exhale, we exhale carbon dioxide and that pulls carbonic acid out of our blood, which is, is an acid-forming item. And so, uh, dissolved CO2 in our blood is part of the acid that we need, which is car— carbonate, part of like sodium bicarbonate and, and whatnot.

Yeah.

And both the, the lungs and the kidneys are really good at dealing with that in kind of, uh, short-term runs where, where metabolic acidosis becomes really problematic. And again, I sound like a total broken record, is in that hyperinsulinemic state where when insulin levels are chronically elevated, activated, we are in a chronic state of low-grade metabolic acidosis.

And tell us what that word means for the everyday person.

You have more acid in your system than what you would really like.

And what would be a symptom of that? The urine smell?

Or not so much the urine smell, but you, you will feel—

is there an odor of some sort?

Or fatigue? Or not necessarily, but you, you would potentially feel fatigued, some brain brain fog. All the enzymes in our body work within really tight parameters related to pH. And so the main thing would be like fatigue, brain fog, which maybe that, that's part of the, you know, why the, this overfed hyperinsulinemic state, part of the reason there is probably due to this, this metabolic acidosis, the, the overabundance of acid in our system. But I'm, I'm really underwhelmed by the danger there with like a 1 to 3-day fast. Like, our body is really good at adapting to that. And the flip side of this is that at the end of your fast, you're recommending a— once people wrap up their zero hunger window, whether it's 1 day or 3 days, 3 days, yeah, they're eating a nutrient-dense, nutrient-rich, protein-appropriate diet. And hopefully they're doing resistance training, whether it's with their body weight or, or, you know, external weights.

For sure.

And that builds bone mineral density and muscle mass. And so I, I am, I'm really underwhelmed at the, the danger there. And, and also when I think about if you were to take a dose of sodium bicarbonate, the pH would go up for a little while and then it would drop back down to normal and it would be just a blip on the radar. And I, my sense is, you know, having adequate vitamin D levels, doing 2 to 4 days a week of brief full-body strength training regimen.

And a lot of people are saying, oh, strength training, that— does that build bones? And I've always told people, my very first book was all about strength training in an 8-minute window, and it really does cause the bones to get stronger. But people are thinking, well, do I need calcium? Do I need a supplement? Because that was the, the other mineral that was suggested.

This is the other thing that when you look in the, the lit— the medical literature, and this is— there aren't great randomized control trials. This is epidemiological, but there is a surprising correlation between supplement— dietary supplements with calcium and cardiac events, heart attacks.

Holy cow.

Because calcium is part of the clotting cascade. And so this is one of the reasons why I was reticent to add calcium. One, it didn't really look like people needed it. People were getting enough from the diet.

And for anyone listening right now, Rob, not to interrupt you, but that is following our plan, we always recommend a high-fat, high-protein diet. I mean, my ribeye is my favorite, you know, grass-fed beef, all that good, good stuff. Just reassure us if you, if you could, that this kind of, uh, of a kind of a carnivore type of meat lover's diet has calcium in it, even though we're not eating the bones per se. I mean, I know that's where most calcium is, but help us understand if we're getting calcium in our diet, because everyone— I, I don't know why I think broccoli has calcium, but I'm not eating broccoli because, you know, it's on the toxicity spectrum according to Paul Saladino. But help us— and we're not drinking milk, it's full of sugar too. So help us understand, are we getting enough calcium if we're eating, um, kind of like a meat lover's diet? What do you think?

I believe so, yes. And again, part of this isn't just what you put in, it's what you keep. And so if you are strength training, if you get adequate vitamin D either from the sun or, or supplement So it's not just a— this is an interesting thing. So folks with osteoporosis, osteopenia are put on a drug called Fosamax, which causes the bones to retain calcium. But the thing is, is that people on Fosamax have greater rates of bone fractures because the bone that is built is garbage. Like, our well-constructed bones are like a bridges made with rebar, you know, so there's protein that gets grown and woven through the bone matrix and it's shockingly strong, but just simply adding calcium to the bones in a disorganized fashion doesn't actually make the bones stronger.

That makes sense. And then you also need the resistance training to make the bones—

to model it the proper way.

Yeah. Say that again.

So it remodels the bone. So again, it's strong in the direction that we want it to be strong.

So benefit for anyone over the age of 49, like you and me here, we gotta keep our strength training going, right? Rob?

Really 29 and up. Like, um, you are in a battle against, um, the loss of bone density and the loss of muscle mass. And it, it's, uh, it, the honestly what you and I should do at some point is join forces around, um, sarcopenia because the loss of muscle muscle mass. The potential—

Give us that term again, the official term.

Sarcopenia. It's the loss of muscle mass with aging, age-related muscle mass loss. The thing that kills most people ultimately is really the loss of muscle because your immune system ultimately gets weak. You are incapacitated in a way that you are more likely to develop pneumonia, complications even from like cardiac events. And whatnot, it's this immobility that happens with aging that is the really big bugger with, you know, like a long and protracted kind of decline. Whereas people who stay— and you don't need to be a professional bodybuilder. You don't need to spend like 20 hours a week in the gym. But if people are wondering what's one little thing that I could do to age more effectively, adding one day a week, and again, it could be 15 or 20 minutes of full-body resistance training, that is— it's kind of like, would you— if you had $10,000 to put in one bank and it was going to pay you 5% interest or 25% interest, like that extra day of resistance training is that shocking return. Yeah.

No, I agree. And it doesn't have to be hard impact. As I always, you know, I've done this with Dr. Oz on air with him where we showed low low-impact workouts that you can do, even just sitting in a chair and coming up. I mean, and I'm standing at a desk right now, you know, I'm doing a standing workout right now.

Right.

The, the Apple— I have good friends at Apple, and I've known the fitness director for many years over there in Cupertino. And, you know, that when they created the Apple Watch, which I love to wear, it reminds me to always stand up, right? And silly things like standing versus sitting— they call sitting the new smoking. But yeah, I mean, not that I'm going to have you stand up, because I think you're sitting.

I see you right now. I have a standing desk on order, but because there you go, like they're all back, back order.

So yeah. Yeah. Look at the simple things like that, that causes us to use our muscles and our bones. So isn't this crazy that, you know, I was whispered in my ear, oh my gosh, if you're doing extended fasting, add bicarbonate and calcium because you know, your bones and all that. But so really, I think I feel like the calcium and it is coming in meat and things like that. Rob, can you explain briefly how a good ribeye has calcium in it, even though we're not eating steak?

All, you know, tissues have sodium, potassium, magnesium, and calcium. It's all part of the, the mix there. Yeah. And a lot of people end up doing things like bone broth and, and things like that. And so those are—

and that bone marrow also has calcium, does it?

Bone marrow itself doesn't really have calcium, but the, the process of cooking bone broth, you would extract calcium.

If we do it old school way.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Crockpot or something. And then the bicarbonate bicarbonate, this Arm Hammer, do we need to be buying this right now? Or would you say, when would, when would it be useful? Or is it truly just unnecessary? Keep it in the refrigerator to refresh and to refresh it. Yeah.

Do we, or do we ingest it or no?

What do you think? Because I know there are products out there. I, I, I have a product I want to show you later to get your thought on, and it's from Costco. So I don't know, we've talked about it and it's got a lot of sugar in it. So I don't think I'm, I don't like it, but I've seen other products out there, you know, like a Snake Juice that has bicarbonate in it. And when I tried it once and it bubbles up and all that, but your thought on that, not that it's a horrible product, but it's just not necessary because it doesn't really— is that what I— I think I understood what you're saying, that it only, it only helps for a moment and then it drops, or how does that work?

Yeah, I mean, I think the acid alkaline story has been made really overly simplistic.

Um, you think it's a little hyped up or a little un— I mean, because people drink like Essentia water, and I saw the Kardashians I saw Chloe, who I worked with on Revenge Body. They're drinking this water and it's not super expensive, but do you think it's not necessary? I mean, let's be like, as much as you can share from your sake of being a biochemist, I know you base this on the science, right? I mean, how much of that is that? Does that help?

Or if you need 12 things in your fitness regimen, the alkaline water is number 13.

Put it down. Oh, so it's— and we're not saying it's a waste of time. It's a nice thought, but it's number 13 on the list. Rob, tell us why. Come on now. Yeah, just— you're getting a can of worms here, and I'm excited because this can save people a lot of money, right, Rob?

It is not the place to focus. Like, are you sleeping well? Do you do a twice-a-day 15-minute meditation? Are you resistance training 2 or 3 days a week? Are you walking daily? These things are just—

you're avoiding sugar, you know?

Yeah, did you remove sugar out of your diet? It 9 days out of 10. These things are so take the money to the bank, but folks really like to get out in the weeds and they're like, "Well, alkaline water is going to fix all my problems and I'll still have a Venti 20-squirt latte with a bagel." And it's just not the place to focus effort. And again, And again, like metabolic acidosis is a real thing, but like I did a, a, a super surface level treatment of that. If I were presenting this to like a group of physicians, like I would need to spend 2 hours to really break down the, the, the hows, whys, and whatsits of metabolic acidosis to give it some proper context.

And that is the term we, we, you mentioned it of the body's breaking down, but that's what would concern people with bone loss. Loss and things like that, right, as well.

Yeah.

So, and, and adding bicarbonate is not going to solve that. You rather strength train, right? And continue to eat a ribeye because it's got the calcium we need in there. And, and if our, you know, and if for some reason we think, oh my gosh, it's— and I think it's more men than women— if they have, uh, I don't want to say issues going to the bathroom, urinating, but if they have a smell or it's a little harder, what, you know, it's not kidney, because people freak out like, am I getting a kidney stone? Is it, is it I'm too acidic? And so I need to use bicarbonate to balance off the pH. But if you do it and just were to add it, say if I added to this, is it really gonna do anything, Rob? I mean, help us understand how that may not be the case, right?

How does it transiently, like for about 20 or 30 minutes, your pH will change a little bit and then it, the kidneys normalize and it goes back to a baseline. And again, it all depends depends on everything else that you're doing, whether or not you're in a state of metabolic acidosis, or if you're at kind of an even, you know, keel with that.

Yeah. Interesting.

Yeah.

All right. So you're, so you give us the thumbs up to just continue doing, if we're going to do a 3-day fast, not to worry about adding Armor and Hammer to our water or to anything. We were okay. I mean, it's number 13th on the list, right?

Yeah. And again, like this is This is our third, third discussion of disaster pants, but if you want to send somebody to the bathroom, like a bicarbonate-rich drink, man, they— so, so interesting potential side note, um, tell us bicarbonate loading can be beneficial for high-level athletes who are doing very intense anaerobic training, you know, like CrossFit or like an MMA fight or something like that. The huge problem here is to get enough bicarbonate in the body is almost identical to what will give you horrible gut-wrenching diarrhea. So like the, the difference between diarrhea and therapeutic dose is almost non— indistinguishable. And so it can be and has been used as a buffer because of the lactate that builds up in muscles and it can help short-term performance, but the people end up abandoning standing doing it because they will poop themselves. And so this is again another, like, I mean, and, and that's one way to lose weight, but that's not my, that's not my great way to lose clients too.

Yeah. Well, yes, I think we'd lose business, we'd lose clients, and we'd be in the bathroom all by ourselves. And let's, let's not do that. I don't think we're meant to live in the bathroom, right, Rob? I mean, just to enjoy life and travel and have fun outdoors and not be in the corner pooping all the time. And it's liquid, it's diarrhea, right, Rob? It's just—

it is, it is not pleasant.

Yes. No, it's just— and it's hard to control.

Yeah.

Wow. Well, this has been so helpful, Rob. I feel like— because that issue was a genuine issue brought to me by a friend, and he's like, well, you're going to get weakened bones this whole 3-day window, and then you're just eating meat. This is not— that's— you're, you're so acidic. So what would I say elegantly if someone's listening and they have someone like that in their lives? Maybe it's a family member, a loved one, a partner. And they're like, listen, you're doing an extended window fast and you're eating meat. You're so acidic. You're going to kill yourself.

And here's a super simple thing. So instead of having an argument around theory, what I would recommend is that folks do a DEXA scan, which gives them a pinpoint accurate measurement of their bone mineral density and also their, their relative body fatness. It's reasonably inexpensive to do these things.

Yeah.

Follow the Zero Hunger regimen for 2 months, 3 months, and get it redone. And I will guarantee you that people have improved their bone mineral density, not made it worse. Wow. And then this person who was saying metabolic acidosis and steak is producing acid and everything. I'll throw this out there. Well, I won't, I won't make it like a UFC Gracie challenge, but I will go.

Just come on, come on, come on.

I would, I, if does this person have a presence on the interwebs? Like, do they, do they have a big stake in, in, you know, it's not the same. It's not the same fun, but what I've thrown out there to folks on this before some of the really say like very plant-based folks is if we put a group of people through this and their metabolic health worsens and their bone mineral density worsens, I will close my website and leave the internet. But if their metabolic— but if they follow this and their metabolic health improves—

your wife might not like this—

and their bone— well, no, I, I know the science, and so I am completely, uh, comfortable with that.

Yeah.

And if you— if their metabolic health improves and their bone mineral health improves, then you, Dr. Vegan, close your website and cease selling your books, and you leave the internet. And nobody has taken me up on this challenge.

Well, this is what I think you and I should we should talk later in the week if you have time. Thank God it's only Monday, but I've been wanting to do a television program like that, Rob. And I think you and I talked about it last time. I think even we could do something fun. And I bet you guys let us know on the podcast if you'd like to see a show. Because remember the old school Biggest Loser? That was different with Jillian. And I know Jillian in Malibu, and I've met a few times— oh, his name is escaping me— the blonde guy. What's his name?

Yeah, he got super into CrossFit. Yeah.

And then he heard about heart attack, the poor guy. Remember, he almost died.

Yeah.

What's his name? Uh, darn it, I just remember Jillian. But you guys remember The Biggest Loser? We should do something like that, but not like that.

Harper.

Bob Harper. Good old Bob. Yeah, Bob's great. And he, you know, thank God his heart is safe. And he's now a spokesman for all these drugs. I see him on TV, you know, more than I do on the relaunch of The Biggest Loser. But we could do some— what would we call our show, Rob? We should ask everyone for their feedback because I think we do vegan versus— and I don't know how we throw a little bit of intermittent fasting in there, but, you know, like the traditional SAD diet, which could be upgraded to more of a plant-based. And, you know, one of my buddies is Marco Barrago. God bless him. He's a smart man. But, you know, he's Beyoncé's and Jay-Z's trainer, and he wrote The Greenprint, and he's such a vegan. And I've not had this discussion with him. I, you know, I hope he's not listening. He's not been on the show this, this last year either, but he's been busy because he, he literally trains Jay-Z and Beyoncé in LA, and he lives in Florida, and I love him to death. He's a good man. He's a Cuban, and he's so passionate about plant-based nutrition. I don't think he's had a piece of meat in years. And I feel like he's— you've heard of Marco, right? Marco Borrego? Smart guy. He's not like some guy off the internet who's 22 or something. And I know you're not some kid off the internet who's 22 either. And then we got Paul Saladino, who's definitely Mr. Carnivore. I mean, we could create a be a really great opportunity to test this out. And I bet people listening would watch, right, Rob? I mean, I would.

I think it'd be fun. And you know, I think one of the things that would emerge is that some people do better on different approaches than others. You know, like if we saw somebody— I think we see that.

Yeah.

Crater on carnivore and we shifted that person to vegan and we saw somebody not doing so well on vegan and shifted them to like keto/carnivore, then I think it, And it, I, the funny thing is that I, I don't, I, I would find something like that interesting because it says that we're all individuals and there's nuance in the world. Um, for the mainstream media, I'm not sure if that plays as well, you know?

Yeah. It's like, but I'd be curious though, like if from your biochemical background, this plant-based lifestyle, it just doesn't seem like our, and you know, the Paleolithic nutrition, you know, and our ancestral health You've studied this. I mean, you're kind of an expert in that genre too. And Mark Sisson taught me a lot back in the day. But I just, I mean, I hate to be so basic and dumb everything down to, well, what did our ancestors do? And what have we done for not just, you know, before the 1930s, like Dr. James talks about how much shifted when the invention of the refrigerator happened in the early '30s. And before then, you know, meat was preserved with salt and we had so much salt and it was so different. And you go back another 1,000 years and another 1,000, you go back 100 100,000. Mark takes you back 2 million years sometimes. And what did our ancestors do? I just— as much as they were hunters and gatherers— can you end on this note? Because I know we've been going along here, but share with us maybe from your perspective, as you know history, a lot of our ancestors did more hunting than gathering. And when they thrived, it was because they had a kill, right? They ate meat. And I don't know how many people were eating broccoli back then and kale, as Beyoncé is, God bless her. But we just talked about kale and what it can do to a lot of us. I get that the, the, how certain cultures may have the bacteria to digest it, but what, what does the history tend to prove or show that our ancestors ate, Rob? I mean, just, that's a, it's a nice way to kind of end it. I know, I know we're going long here, but, um, would you mind just for a little bit?

One thing that it shows is we've never until modern history seen a vegan society. That is completely an artifact of, of modern technology, of our ability ability to have so much wealth and so much comparative excess that some people can choose, have the privilege to choose not to eat animal products.

Say that again, because I think you're the first person that has said it so elegantly because it's a profound little sentence there. It's a statement, right?

It's funny because folks in medical anthropology circles at universities will cringe at this, but the reality is that there are no vegan groups until you hit some sort of a modern society. Now, there are different iterations of vegetarians, like in India, vegetarianism has a pretty long history, although they consumed a lot of dairy and although they didn't generally consume, you know, say like bovine protein, cow protein, they did consume other animal-based proteins and whatnot. And this has kind of varied around the world, but there are no vegan you know, there are no vegan societies until you hit basically modern times.

I mean, literally, it was Beyoncé— no, I'm joking, it's not Beyoncé— but I mean, when was the first vegan? I don't even remember the term 20 years ago when I wrote my first book. Do you?

I never heard of vegans. I heard my third book, uh, Sacred Cow, we dig into this.

Yes. Oh my gosh, let's end on that too.

Perfect. Yeah, perfect. And, and a film.

It's a film too, right?

There's a film also. Yeah, yeah. And it talks about the environmental, ethical, and health considerations of a meat-inclusive food system. And please, it really wasn't until the early 1800s that you saw the first kind of emergence. And it, again, it's, it's popped up in different places. Like in India, there were some pro— prohibitions against eating certain foods. And then even within the Abrahamic religion, Christianity versus Judaism versus Islam, you know, you don't eat pork here, you can't eat pork there. No shellfish here. Yes, shellfish there. So the, the different types of foods that folks can or can't eat has really been a major social identifier. It identifies in-group from out-group. And there's some interesting historical historical stuff to this, like some, some very, uh, uh, I won't even get into that right now. That one is too controversial.

But you have to watch the film, right? You get into it in the film.

We didn't even get into this particular thing, the thing that's in my head.

This will be our third, our next podcast. We'll do it then. Yeah, yeah.

But we might— I'll talk to you offline and we'll see if you're willing to get into it because it's very controversial.

Really?

Yeah, very controversial.

It's a good, it's a good Listen, right? It would be probably.

It could be. It could get us both canceled too. So I'll leave it up to you. You have better judgment on that. But for sure, put it this way, um, different iterations of vegetarianism and even beyond that, just what is allowed versus not allowed within dietary practices are ubiquitous throughout different cultures. Like, it's hard to find a culture that doesn't. And sometimes it kind of makes sense, like the prohibition again Against pork in many ways makes sense in a scenario when that pork historically has had trichinosis infection, which is a parasitic infection that once you get it, it's very hard to get rid of and can make you sick. And so like there's— and even shellfish back then. It made sense back then. Shellfish can be dangerous because of red tide when the shellfish eat microorganisms that are because of an algae bloom. Bloom are full of toxins that will kill you like on the moment.

Like, get that stuff. And so these religions kind of generalized it up, but it made sense. It kept their followers healthy.

Yeah. Yeah. And then sometimes it made no sense at all. You know, I mean, occasionally that, that, that was something like, you know, but it just, there's a, this is a common pattern within humanity that we, we delineate diets that kind of, you know, this is the in crowd, this is the out crowd. But it wasn't until about the 1800s that you really started seeing a shift from what was basically vegetarian, where they would include poultry and some fish and some dairy. And then people started saying, no, you can't have any animal products at all. But it's interesting.

This was— that Harvey Kellogg was a part of that too, basically.

Harvey Kellogg in the West, that's kind of where that whole—

he had a sanitarium, right? Yeah. And remember, uh, Matthew Broderick. Yeah.

He was in that movie. The Road to Wellville was an amazing movie.

Yes. Oh my gosh. And, and was Anthony Hopkins in it?

Anthony Hopkins was Kellogg in there. Yeah.

I remember that.

Wonderful movie.

Yes.

And you know, these folks had a lot of things right. They wanted you to be outside. They wanted you to get a lot of sun. They used hot and cold therapy. They used fasting to, to varying degrees.

Yep.

But, um, people had a tendency to get sick and die at these things because they didn't eat any, any animal products for extended periods of time.

Oh, because meat was It was the devil back then to Harvey Kellogg. That's why.

Do you know what? So th— this is really funny what they told people. There, there, there was also a very strong religious underpinning to this. And what they noticed was that people who ate meat had a randy libido. And if you took meat out of their diet, both the men and the women had no interest in sex.

I heard about this. And isn't this why he created the cornflake? Yes. To lower libido. Libido.

Yes, I heard this.

And nowadays, if— can you imagine he put that on the, on the box of Kellogg's Corn Flakes? Lowers libido. I mean, I, I mean, I guess certain people would still want that, I guess. But I, I think it's good to have a healthy libido, right?

It is a primary indicator of whether or not things are good or bad, you know. I mean, again, backing up just a little bit and thinking about kind of the, the naturalistic perspective on this, nature kind of wants us to be randy because you want to—

I like that word. Say that word again.

Randy. It's kind of a British term for it. Yeah. Feeling randy.

Which means, you know, how shall we say? How do we make it English? What? Not to be curt. Frisky.

Frisky.

Frisky.

Hey. Frisky. Yeah. Yeah.

And I remember Sean Baker, Dr. Baker, you know, he's very much Good friend of mine.

Yeah.

Good carnivore diet. He, he told us when we did our interview many months ago about how men, the greatest way to, if you have good health, is you should wake up with an erection. He said it, you know, and I was like, you know, and for women, he's like, well, that's a little different, obviously. But, you know, he's like, that's a good sign of health. So isn't that ironic how in the Victorian time period, a libido was considered, well, it was religious, I guess it was considered unhealthy, right?

Yeah.

And now we know that's not the case. We want our bodies to be functional, right, Rob? And we want a healthy libido. Libido. And yes, we're saying it here, you want a healthy libido, and keeps your marriage happy and keeps things going. You don't have to always be making babies, but you can be healthy, enjoy the, the benefits of a good libido.

And what's interesting is everything that goes into a good libido— usually you don't have depression, usually you have good cardiovascular function. There's all the— like, it, it— good libido is kind of the canary in the coal mine for a lot of other things.

And that's what he said.

Yeah. And, and this is one of the things that I think is interesting. Low-carb diets are not the right thing for everybody under all circumstances, but one of the big things, both men and women, that they report when they get that right— and ironically, when they get sodium right in this story— so like, man, my libido is better than it's been in like 10 or 15 years, you know.

And yeah, yeah, no need for Viagra, gentlemen, if you have a healthy— I mean, if you've follow this possible path, it could be— I mean, you could always use it, I guess, but, uh, it's not as required.

It takes a lot of the boxes of why people end up needing something like Viagra or antidepressants or, or a bunch of these other things. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, Rob, uh, I'm blown away by everything. I mean, this was amazing. I was blown away from the kale to the spinach to the bicarbonate. I think we covered all matters of questions that I surely have. Is there anything I'm forgetting, Rob, that we wanted to mention? I know you've got incredible podcasts and you've got a challenge going out there. You're getting a million people. Do you wanna tell everyone where they can find you and about your Healthy Rebellion, please?

Yeah. Yeah. We have the Healthy Rebellion community. It's join.thehealthyrebellion.com. Uh, my wife and I do a weekly podcast where we answer Q&A about topics very like this, and that is also called the Healthy Rebellion. And then I, you know, over at drinkelement.com with all my good friends there.

We love that stuff. I mean, you know, we're huge fans of your— these little packets. Do I call them packets or satchels? What do we call these little guys?

You can call them anything you want.

What do you call them?

We call them packets. I call them the drink packs.

Yeah, the drink packs. I think they're delicious. They make Zero Hunger water easy to make because you just So rip it and pour. It couldn't be any easier than that. And I feel like today's podcast was so valuable. Um, tell them where you are on social, your Insta and your website one more time.

RobWolf.com. And I spend very little time on social media at this point. So I, I have an Instagram account. It's @dasrobwolf, D-A-S-R-O-B-B-W-O-L-F.

Um, we post clips from like our podcast similar to this here, but yeah, the podcast name so they subscribe to it, please.

The Healthy Rebellion.

Yeah, I know, it's great. And your wife is amazing on it. She's kind of your, your Vanna White. You're, you know, she's there with you at all times. And I think it's such a great team that you guys are. And hopefully one of these days I'll come visit you where you're at or not. Not that any of us are traveling. I haven't been on, I've yet to go on an airplane in over a year. It's literally been a year now, but I feel like it's through Zoom. Here we are. And you can make great friends through Zoom. I didn't know it was this Right, right, right. But we can do this. And let's hopefully talk offline later in the week if you have time. And I got a couple things I want to share with you. And I'll, I'll mention everyone to pick up this, uh, Wednesday or Thursday Woman's World magazine. It'll be out, uh, nationwide. There's 5 or 6 million readers to that. And, uh, we're going to be talking about Zero Hunger, the, the plan and how to make the water. And obviously, uh, we're really grateful to you, Rob, for all your support with all that we're doing. And thank you for being on the show. For a kick-ass 2021 interview here. It's a great way to kind of end the month, or I guess we're not at the end of the month yet, but I think it's the last week in the month. So I'm excited before the Super Bowl and all that. And let's make 2021 our best year ever. And I'm going to say cheers to you, sir, with my Zero Hunger Water.

Salud.

All right, buddy. Thank you so much.

Peace, brothers. Take care.

Bye-bye. Alright, today's episode is complete, guys. Thank you so much for listening, and I want to ask you to please subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, and please leave a review on Apple as well. Give it 5 stars if you think the show has helped you in some way to transform your thinking. I hope it has. And more importantly, share your comments, your review of what today's episode did for your thinking, how it shifted your thinking, and what you got out of it. Because I think that is how we spread this. And for me, this is a revolution. This is not a podcast. This is a way of life. And I hope to transform over a million lives in the next couple years, and I need your help. So please become part of the Zero Hunger Revolution by leaving that review on Apple Podcasts and subscribing today. Thanks so much. Have a great one. Peace and purpose, and I'll see you on the next episode.