#98 - Why sodium will give your radical control of you health with guest co-host @drjamesdinic

Hi, my name is Jorge Cruise and I'm the number one New York Times bestselling author and leading fitness, nutrition, and peak performance trainer to the world's busiest celebrities. You may have seen my work with Oprah Winfrey, Khloe Kardashian, Tyra Banks, Kelly Clarkson, or even Dr. Oz. My career started because in my early 20s I was out of control and addicted to sweets, carbs and salty snacks, and experts told me to simply count calories to get control. They were wrong. My passion to get control of my hunger led me to find simple ways backed by science that would turn off physical hunger as well as my emotional eating instantly, and I know I can help you too. Welcome to the Jorge Cruise Show. Well, happy Wednesday everyone. It's December 2nd, uh, it is the kickoff to the holidays. I'm Jorge, welcome to the Jorge Cruise Show. I'm thrilled you're here. Thank you for listening. This is, uh, the number one podcast for people that want to get radical control over their sugar, carb, and salty food addictions, or cravings shall we call it. And on today's show, we are going to blow your mind because I have a man on the show, a guest co-host here, uh, that really has shaken up my thinking dramatically. He's the author of a book called The Salt Fix. Uh, the subtitle says, why the experts got it all wrong and how eating more might save your life. His name is Dr. James D. Nicolantonio. He's a doctor of pharmacy and a cardiovascular research scientist. In his writing of this book, The Salt Fix, he really reviewed more than 500 publications to unravel the impact of salt on blood pressure and heart disease. And he's going to share with us what I already knew, but it's going to come from truly a doctor's perspective. And for someone who has spent years dedicating his life to this, it's profound. Uh, he's going to share with us why sodium is critical to your health, whether you're trying to lose weight or not, whether you're trying to control hunger or not, how you need this substance in your life, and that everything we've been told, especially by the American Heart Association, which I used to work with, is completely wrong. And the biggest fear a lot of my clients have had with salt is this idea of high blood pressure. And I'll tell you, the only way salt can raise blood pressure— you'll find, find this out on the, in the interview— is when you pair it with a high sugar, high carbohydrate diet. When you cut out carbs and you cut out sugar to a low degree, and, or maybe cut it out completely, you could take 25 to 80 grams of salt a day, which we used to do back before the 1930s, before we created this thing called the refrigerator, how do you think our ancestors, our grandparents, you don't even have to go back 1,000 years, but just in the 1920s, how did they used to eat meat? Well, they preserved it with salt, and the average person, whether it was fish or meat, was consuming, when they were having their meat, 25 to 80 grams of salt a day, and were fine, because they weren't eating carbs and sugars. Does that make sense? So this is profound stuff. You're going to learn that salt is our, best friend, and especially if you want to have zero hunger, how it turns off hunger for the better, and more importantly gives you an edge. So you have incredible energy, you have incredible control over sugar and carbs, and sugar and carbs will not control you anymore. And if you can offset that and understand how this works, you're going to end up eating one meal a day, which is what a lot of my clients do. It's called OMAD, and you're going to do it effortlessly, and then you'll have a high-quality meal that's made minus the carbs and sugars. I mean, you can have some, but you're going to eat a nice high-protein, high-fat diet with salt, and you're never going to be hungry, and you're going to have a rockstar body. You're going to feel your best, and more importantly, you're going to feel a sense of true— ah, I think the best word is confidence when it comes to your health, because you're going to know that you're not going to be at risk for any underlying health condition, whether it's heart disease, diabetes, cancer, etc., obesity, obviously with COVID-19. And you know, right now our world is— it's surging. And so if you ever wanted to improve your health, getting control over sugar and carbs is your homework. And this podcast is going to give you the essential tool to understand why sodium will do this for you, you know. And basically my prescription to my clients is take 32 ounces of water and add 1 simple ingredient, sodium, half a teaspoon to 32 ounces of water, and voilà, you have an incredible way to turn off hunger for 2 or 3 hours. And I have clients that do this all throughout the day. So we're going to talk about all this with Dr. James today on the show. I can't wait for the interview to start. First, I have to give thanks to our sponsors. Thank you to Primal Kitchen for sponsoring us, uh, since the get-go of the podcast. They are created by Mark Sisson. He's my nutrition mentor. He's how I kind of got on this new path of understanding zero hunger, and so I really respect Mark. He's 67 years young. He's probably the sexiest 67-year-old man I've ever met, and high energy, and his core secret really has been for years avocado oil. He did it for himself originally because almost all salad dressings and mayonnaise out there are made with canola oil or soybean oil, and I can tell you those oils, they're called seed oils, vegetable seed oils, and they are inflammatory. They're horrible for your health. You should throw those things out and replace them with something from Primal Kitchen because they only use avocado oil. They've grown now and they have other products, but they're giving us a free mayo, chipotle lemon style. Delicious. I put a dollop of it on my steak every day and I love it. Simply go to primalkitchen.com/jorgecruise and you'll get your free lemon chipotle mayonnaise, all right guys? Check that out. We're also brought to you by Elemental Labs. A big shout out to Robb Wolf. Thank you, Robb, for all your support. He's a New York Times bestselling author, great guy, and passionate about health. He wrote The Paleo Solution and Wired to Eat. If you haven't seen those books, grab them. But in his passion to help people have great health, he was very aligned with our guest today, Dr. James, and he's created an electrolyte product that I recommend to a lot of celebrities now, and to a lot of my online clients, and I'd recommend to you. You'll get a free box of his electrolytes, a $45 value, simply by going to this value bundle link where you order 3, you get the 4th one for free. And if you put it on auto-ship, you even save more money. I use his products every single day. I probably, I probably consume 4 to 5 of them a day minimum. So, uh, check those, check this out. Just simply go to drinkelement.com/jorge and you'll get that free bundle or the 4th box free for the bundle. And the website I'll spell for you. It's drinklmnt.com/jorge. I'll spell it for you one more time. It's drinklmnt.com/jorge. All right, so check that out. And finally, we're brought to you by Dr. Tess. She's America's favorite dermatologist. She's my dermatologist. She's this gorgeous woman trained at Stanford, passionate about beauty and health, and She and her husband, who's also Stanford trained, created a product recently called Lively Healthy Skin, which is a collagen-based tablet. I take 3 a day. That will give you beautiful skin, joints, nails. And if you don't know about collagen, it comes from bone broth, literally from the bone marrow of animals. And it's very hard to get traditionally, but this is the most elegant format and way to kind of consume it. I just take 3 a day when I break my fast, have it with a steak, and literally just have it kind of like a vitamin. And you get this incredible rich source of collagen that's going to keep you looking gorgeous. And if you're someone who's got a tremendous amount of weight to lose, I recommend this to anyone who's got 40, 50 pounds to lose right away because it'll help recoil skin as well. So really important stuff. To get 50% off her product, just simply go to shopdrtesse.com. Her coupon code is drtesse, D-R-T-E-S-S, and you'll get 50% off. Look for Lively Healthy Skin. That is what I use, and I recommend it to you. Check it out, guys. So with that said, guys, I'm excited. Dr. James and I sat down just yesterday, we recorded this, um, and I think what you're going to discover in our conversation— it's about an hour long— you're going to learn how everything we've been taught about sodium is totally wrong. And this idea that high fiber diets are the thing that's going to hold up your hunger is going to be blown away. You're going to discover how sodium was used in ancient times at high levels, gave us energy You're gonna discover how even the Romans, you know, this word salary that we use in today's world, well, they were paid in salt because it was such a valuable resource for energy and vitality and for winning wars and to have energy. And remember, if you pair salt with sugar, you can raise blood pressure. But, and that's a big misnomer, and a lot of people don't understand that the only way salt can raise your blood pressure is when you pair it with sugar or carbs. And since I kind of have, most of my clients go very low carb, carb and go more high protein, high fat, you're never going to have this concern of high blood pressure by using salt. Now, we're not going to go up to 25 or 80 grams of salt like our ancestors did, but you're going to learn how consuming salt is so good for you, and it's going to take the fear out of it. I think you're going to embrace sodium for the rest of your life, and you're going to make it, uh, hopefully an essential nutrient, a mineral that you can utilize to give you an edge, you know, not just to turn off hunger but to give you energy. To give you a quality of life that you're going to love, and you can share this with your family and friends. And please do share today's podcast. But without further ado, let's get started right now. Let's bring out Dr. James. And remember, he's the author of The Salt Fix. So here we go, guys. Let's do it.

Well, welcome, guys, to a very special podcast. I am thrilled to be sitting down here and having a conversation with the author of what I think is probably one of the most important books I've read in 2020. And I really do believe it's, it's a book that we need to examine because, as you know, so many of us right now are looking for more support, more control over sugar, carbs and salty snack foods. And I always have to tell people that it's not the salt that's bad. It's the chips, the potatoes, the corn. And joining me on the other side of the country here on the East Coast is a man who wrote a book that has changed my thinking. I'll show you the COVID here, guys. It is a critical book, I think, in our quest for zero hunger. And we've had incredible conversations with incredible people. But this author really, and this man, Dr. James D. Nicolantonio, I hope I'm pronouncing it right, is on the other end. Would you say hi to everyone, Dr. James, just as a shortcut, right?

Yeah. Happy to be here, Jorge. Thanks for having me.

Oh, my gosh. I'm beyond honored. I think your book says it best in the subtitle, Why Experts Got It Wrong. And how eating more salt may save your life. And that's a profound statement. But I have to tell you, I've been following a lot of what you recommend in the book. I've elevated my sodium intake. And, you know, a lot of my clients follow a high-fat, high-protein diet. They do a lot of intermittent fasting. And when I read this, it just shifted my thinking because I would say— and I'll let you kind of take the introduction here and introduce us to the thinking of salt. But I think we've been told that Salt is this mineral we have to be so cautious of and it's so delicate. And yet at the same time, we're not getting enough. And it is important. I don't think it's a delicate one that will harm us. And it's not that we want to have a pound of salt every day. It's not something like that. But we do need to elevate our intake. And I couldn't agree with you more. So I'm just honored to have you on the show here today. And I'm hoping that by the end of our conversation, everyone listening or watching can really have an idea of how to utilize salt and really as a tool tool to fix their health to some degree and perhaps help them feel better, uh, have less false hunger is what I call it. And, and I know, I know in the book you talk about people that follow a kind of a keto-based Atkins type diet, and a lot of my clients do that. So I'm just thrilled to have time with you and thank you so much for creating such an incredible, um, conversation here. And, uh, if you don't mind, share with everyone a little bit of your background and how you came to write this book, because you've written many books and we'll mention your, even your newest book here at the end of the show, because I think it's incredible. About immunity. But tell us a little bit of your origin story, if you don't mind, Dr. James, because I feel like you're such a unique man. I have not seen another book like this. It's not like there's 10 books on salt and why we need to eat more salt. But please, if you wouldn't mind, tell us a little bit of your, of your beginnings and how the work began and how the book came to existence.

Sure. So I'm a cardiovascular research scientist at St. Luke's Mid-America Heart Institute, and I've been publishing on nutrition and nutraceuticals for the past decade. And my interest on salt and the origin story was when I was actually working as a community pharmacist. Um, a lot of my patients, uh, were put on diuretics for high blood pressure, right? And told to cut out eating salt because that's the first thing your doctor's sort of been trained to do. If you have high blood pressure, they automatically tell you to cut your salt intake, right?

Yes. Yes.

Think about really the other primary drivers. Usually that's you know, insulin resistance or being overweight, they, they instantly go to just cut the salt intake as if it's like this toxic poison, uh, when really nothing further could be from the truth because this is an essential mineral. Um, and so the origin story really comes from a lot of my patients complaining to me as their pharmacist that they don't feel well on these low-salt diets or these diuretics. And I would push them back. I would say, go back to your doctor You know, tell them that you're not feeling that good. Maybe have your sodium levels checked. And a lot of times they were, you know, deficient in salt. And when the doctor would, you know, tell them to start eating more salt, they instantly felt better. Um, and, and probably the most emails that I got from people after reading the book is that their atrial fibrillation or their muscle cramps instantly improved as soon as they started eating a normal salt intake again. Yeah, that's the origin. It wasn't really matching up from not only from my patients that I was seeing as a community pharmacist, but as a wrestler and a cross-country runner, I've always known the importance of salt to performance and exercise.

Well, and I'll tell you, being a fitness trainer, I feel like a lot of people look at sodium and they think, hmm, they don't think it's an electrolyte. But can you explain to us why sodium right now is recommended at a daily allowance that, in your opinion, I would think you would agree, is too low? And why maybe sometimes athletes, you know, as a trainer, I work with people that do exercise and they've heard of electrolytes, they've heard of Gatorade, but it has a lot of sugar traditionally and things like that. But help us understand how the experts got it all wrong, because I feel like, in my opinion, it's 100%. But I think a lot of people think, well, how can the United States— how can someone that recommends a daily allowance for a whole country be off? And then share with us, if you don't mind, what those numbers are and what, in your humble opinion, they should be. And especially if we're following an active lifestyle and maybe a keto-based type of diet, because Salt is something that can be regulated. I remember years ago reading how in Roman times and Greek times, salt was so precious. I think the word salary comes from the word salt. Is that right, Dr. James?

Yes, that is correct. Yeah.

You know, people were worth their weight in salt. So, I love the history of all that. I am kind of a salt buff. So, to have you on here, it really is the best. But share with us a little more about that because I feel like there is what we are told by the experts today and maybe identify who these experts are and what they are telling us and obviously then take us to what you think is better. And then obviously if we're fasting or doing keto diet, why that— why, why that those numbers are probably accurate, or if we need to take them up even a pinch more, you know?

Right. Well, so most people don't really know the historical intakes of salt, you know, throughout the past 10,000 years, which was, you know, in European countries, typically 3 times the amount compared to what we consume today because they didn't have refrigerators to preserve foods. They preserved it. All their food in salt. And you actually need quite a bit of salt if you're only utilizing that substance to preserve a food. So it was just literally just packed full of salt to preserve fish and meats and all these things. Right. Um, so, so for the last 10,000 years, we had been consuming, you know, around 25 to 50 grams of salt per day.

And then one more time, because what, what are we told currently by the government? What would you say? And then Say that.

Most governments tell you to consume no more than 6 grams of salt, whereas historically we were typically around 25 to 50 grams of salt. Wow.

And this is 10,000 years ago, right? And recorded all the way up until— until what time did things, uh, shift, would you say?

Up until the invention of the refrigerator. And then once we were able to refrigerate foods, right, in the 1930s, '40s, '50s, the, the intake of salt sort of normalized to what it's at today, which is about 1.5 teaspoons is what most people consume.

1.5 teaspoons. And if, uh, now tell us, what are the agencies in the government that regulate this? And what, what is that? Is that their, is that their, their recommended daily allowance? Is that how that works? Give us a minute on that if you would.

So typically, um, the historical recommendations from the American Heart Association have been less than 1,500 milligrams of sodium, which is essentially less than about a teaspoon. Well, half a teaspoon of salt. And they don't tell you a minimal amount though. They just, they just have this less than sign as if this is not an essential mineral. They should also have, well, you should at least be consuming X amount per day. So it's just sort of consume less than this amount. And some of the guidelines have gotten a little bit looser because now, you know, more information has been coming out that low salt can be harmful. Um, Typically now, uh, the US, you know, dietary guidelines, they sort of cap it at around 2,300 milligrams, which is a teaspoon of salt, 1 teaspoon. Um, but really most of the data suggests that 1.5 teaspoons is associated with less cardiovascular events, less mortality, um, and, you know, really improvements in insulin sensitivity and all these things.

This is incredible. And, and what I'm blown away with is that that what you said is historically true. I mean, the invention of the refrigerator was documented in the '30s, as you said here, and maybe there was one or two earlier, but for thousands of years, salt was the tool used to preserve things and the tool— now, soldiers in the Roman times, was this— at any time in history, salt was looked at and not as magic necessarily, but as a tool that gave our bodies vitality. How would you describe that? Energy? Tell us what the right amount of salt will make us feel like. And obviously the numbers we have now, I mean, you know, the majority of the people I work with are exhausted, they're tired, they're hungry all the time. It goes on and on and on. And then maybe we can connect it to hunger because obviously we've lowered the salt so much that may impact appetite. So I'll let you kind of take it, please.

Yeah, well, I mean, the importance for Roman times, uh, was very important for their armies. I mean, back, um, back in those days, and even really back just 50 years ago, rations, war rations always had typically about 18 grams of salt per soldier per day. So that, that's how important, you know, going to war. If you want to have an army that can go to war and fight, you need to have enough salt for these people to be active and actually protect your country. So that's why it was really, you were worth your weight in salt because you were literally fighting for the protection of the country.

Right.

Wow.

Um, yeah, that's kind of, it's, it's an interesting historical, um, perspective, but I think the confusion why people think salt is harmful is because the sugar industry really got involved in this whole dietary debate and they needed a scapegoat, right? So if, if they wanted sugar to sort of have a free pass, what other white crystal could they blame all the harms on high blood pressure, on hunger, on cravings, on obesity? It was salt. That's what they did. So, I mean, we know too for a fact that the sugar industry paid numerous scientists to publish papers to sort of, um, you know, scapegoat other, you know, substances as being harmful and sugar being harmless. And really salt took the brunt of that for blood pressure and cravings and, and being an addictive substance, right? But it's really not the salt that's, that can be addictive. It's really the sugar. And people are just starting to figure this out. And then that type of craving and addiction can lead to out-of-control hunger and weight gain. So it's just, it's really interesting how these crystals work from a taste perspective and how that actually activates sort of the hunger and craving centers in the brain.

I feel like what you're saying, not only is the light bulb, as Oprah would say, it's an aha moment here going off, but I feel like what you're saying makes so much, it's almost like when I have conversations with people who've studied anthropological ancestral health and what our ancestors ate. And, you know, and then obviously before there was refrigeration and before there was preservative, the foods were preserved with other items outside of salt. We hunted and we gathered foods and we did a lot of hunting. And, you know, we've had on the show Dr. Paul Saladino and Dr. Paul Shawn Baker and Mark Sisson and their primal perspective on what we did as a species is so powerful because history, I mean, history is history for the most part. Hopefully it's not distorted, but this history is very well documented. And so salt, as it became villainized— I hate to call it that. I mean, it almost sounds like a conspiracy theory that salt became just the bad guy because, I mean, how did they pick that? How did that happen? Because I feel like the experts that you mentioned in the book obviously have made for decades— and how many decades has it been, would you say, Dr. James, where people have looked to salt as this bad guy? Was it from the 1930s, '40s? How did that villain vibe become there? And then obviously tell us what the fix is, because obviously we need to change things. And I think, you know, this— your book has given people, I think, the truth. You know, it almost feels like it should be a documentary. And, and I feel like this truth is not being talked about. I feel like your book is the primary book that— I mean, it's the book on Amazon and everywhere we go. And I feel like I would wish there were more of them, but I feel like you're You don't have a huge— you don't have a large group of people that, you know, there's like 10 books on salt and why we all need them. There's books on sugar. Definitely sugar has become— I think people now know, and it's a battle, I'm sure you would agree, that, you know, that the sugar companies are probably saying, well, not all sugar is bad if it's healthy, you know, whole sugar, cane sugar and all this. But tell us how we lost our way possibly and how did they pick this? Do you have an idea on that? Or what can you share from the book perhaps on how it became the villain? Right.

Just from sort of, let's say, an evolutionary perspective, when we would hunt an animal, mammals are essentially walking bags of salt, right? And so per liter of fluid, you're going to have 1.5 teaspoons, or essentially a full day's worth of salt in that animal, right? And we know that, that we humans, we contain 5 liters of blood, and that's not counting interstitial fluid, right? And we know traditional, um, even the Maasai, they'll actually drink the blood of their cattle and milk as well, which is fairly salty. But we could, we could follow animals to salt licks and directly consume salt from a lick, right? Or we could get brackish or salty water and just consume it straight. So we've always had access to this pure, either saline solution through the mammals we would hunt, or just going to the salt licks that, and following the animal trails. So we always have been, you know, our taste receptors have always been activated by pure salt, but not sugar. So the— right. And so that's the, that's one evolutionary difference. We did get some sugar through fruit, but there's a huge difference between consuming sugar, a little bit of sugar that comes with fiber and water versus a highly purified white crystal. And sort of to give you an example of this, right, because people will be like, well, how can sugar be addictive? It's in fruit, right? It doesn't—

yes.

Right. It's in plant, it's in a plant, right? Well, if you think about it, if you extract plant compounds, right, from let's say the cocaine leaf and you get cocaine, or you, or you get opium, right? You extract these purely crystals, right, from these plants. Now you have a highly addictive substance because it's about the, the concentration and the purity. And boiling down and getting the, the, the sugarcane and the fluid out and then forming this white crystal You now have this very, very hyperpalatable purified substance that can activate the dopamine receptors in the brain to a much greater degree. And this sort of hyper-release of dopamine—

we get high, we get addicted to it, right? Get high.

And then the more you get, the more you need to get that high. So that's sort of just how I try to explain how sugar can potentially be addictive. And now it's not is, you know, addictive for everyone, just like alcohol isn't addictive for everyone. But there is a subset of people that when you consume sugar, it leads to this craving and this massive out-of-control hunger consumption, especially food consumption, due to this, you know, massive release of dopamine.

Yes.

And when you don't get enough salt, there had to, there had to have been something because it's an essential mineral. There had to have been a way that tells mammals and tells humans seek out this substance when you're deficient. There has to be a signal.

Yes.

Well, when you don't have enough salt, what happens is the dopamine receptors in the brain become hyperactivated. So essentially, if you don't— if you're not getting enough salt, when you consume any other substance that can activate the reward receptors in the brain, it makes it more, let's say, addictive. And that includes sugar, that includes medications, that includes things like Adderall, they've tested this out in animals. They will deplete an animal of salt. And then if they give them things like cocaine or Adderall, those substances become much more addictive because low salt activates the reward centers in the brain. Because when you, when you, when that happens, it's, it's what saves you. It's what drives the animal or the human to seek out the salt, get the reward and consume it. So you don't die of salt deficiency. Deficiency. So that, that's how the body works and that's how cravings work.

Yeah. So for anyone out there that has cravings, I mean, I think that's the word, and especially the sugar and carbs, you know, because I think, I mean, all weight gain and right now with COVID-19 and people wondering about underlying health conditions and being overweight is definitely not helpful. You know, you want to be— I mean, I unknowingly, I've shared this on the podcast, but back in September, did not know I had COVID-19 and tested about 2 months ago for the antibodies and had them. And I had a little trouble breathing. I used to have asthma 30 years ago when I was a kid and I thought it was just bad asthma, but I didn't quarantine. I saw my sons and I didn't know I had it. And I feel like I had a little bit of an advantage being leaner and stronger and having a healthy diet and doing OMAD, one meal a day and all that. I have a high protein, high fat diet. So I feel like I was lucky. But with these cravings, a lot of people, as you know, have gained what they are calling now the COVID the COVID-19, which is 19 lbs. of belly fat. It seems to always be in the belly. And so, you know, for anyone out there that's trying to lose weight, you know what I've suggested to them is, you know, I'll have with me, like right now here upon rising, I'll have 32 ounces of water and I'll usually add 1/4 of a teaspoon, about 1,000 milligrams of salt in my 32 ounces of water. And so we do the math. Some of my clients will take a gallon of water. You know how sometimes they work out and they take more water with them. So we'll times that by, I think, 3, correct? About 128 ounces of water would be 3 of these, I believe. Is that right, or is it 4? Not, uh, 128 divided by 32. Let me double-check. But what would you— is that— was I right?

Yeah, 4.

Yeah, 4. 4. So before these, so that's in a gallon. So, you know, so that would be if it's 1/4 of a teaspoon, 1,000 milligrams of the fine salt. But it's coarse salt, I always tell people to double. I don't know if you would agree with that because it's a little more bulky, the coarser salts, you know, more the crystal But whether it's 1/4 and 32 ounces, or I guess a full teaspoon in a gallon of water, for me, it doesn't seem like a lot of salt in the water, and it doesn't make the water excessively salty. It's just— how would you— it's like a saline, I think you were saying, right? Is that an amount that you would suggest? Because I know a lot of keto people— Robb Wolf was someone who suggested that to us, about 1,000 milligrams and 32 ounces. You could do it in less, but then it becomes very salty. But what would you suggest for anyone out there as a prescription of sorts? For an active lifestyle, if they're doing something where they're perhaps trying to eat less, you know, and control those urges for sugar and carbs. Do you think that prescription is something you would suggest, or tell us what you, what you think about an amount that you would suggest on the low end, maybe as for, you know, in the middle and at the highest point, maybe a range of sorts, you know?

Yes. I mean, salt needs are always kind of determined by losses. So that's going to be determined by someone's lifestyle and sort of where they sit on the spectrum of insulin resistance. So I mean, first, the one thing I do think we should probably clarify, please, a lot of people are told that they're salt sensitive, meaning their blood pressure will go up when they consume a normal amount of salt and, uh, they're told to cut their salt intake. Well, the majority of the time, what is actually happening is they're actually just insulin resistant because they're eating too many refined carbs and sugars. And if these people would just drop the refined carbs and sugar, they wouldn't over-retain the salt. So it's not that you should just start eating more salt. It's make sure you first cut out the refined carbs and sugar so you can tolerate a normal salt intake. And then also make sure you're consuming enough magnesium and potassium because that allows us to utilize salt in the appropriate way. But if you, if you fix all of that, then we see that these people that are on ketogenic diets, right, they need a little bit more salt. So typically adding 1 to 2 grams of sodium extra compared to the typical 3 grams of sodium in, let's say, a normal person. They seem to do much better because when, when you drop the insulin, you start spilling sodium out in the urine and you start losing it more. And then glucose helps us absorb sodium as well. So chronically, a lot of these people feel better with more salt because they're not absorbing it as well.

Yes. Well, I think that's so critical because obviously your lifestyle determines what you lose faster and if you're active and not active and what you're eating. So the current— just to kind of set a little footnote in the conversation here, the current recommended daily allowance, tell us what that is, what you just said for the average person. And then based on something that I'm suggesting about 1/4 of a teaspoon of the fine salt in 32 ounces. And we have clients that are doing this and their appetite stops. They literally will have the sun rising. They don't even feel like they need coffee. Right. And what happens is they go on and they'll have a few of these a day. And their greatest concern is if they do this and have good energy, they feel good, they don't have an appetite, they're like, am I going to be okay? And they're fine. They don't pass out. They don't feel faint, lightheaded. And they end up having one meal a day or so. And I have some clients that do even longer fasts, but they get concerned. It's too much salt, too much salt. So maybe then take us to the extreme of what would be too much, because what you shared, what our ancestors did. What was that number from the ancient times when we would preserve meat with that? It was 25 grams, was it?

Yeah, around 25.

It's like a lot, right?

Well, they've tested this out in people who are, um, have normal blood pressure. 80% of those people are not salt sensitive. So, so there's been studies giving these people up to 80 to 100 grams of salt and there's no increase in blood pressure, or if there is, it's very tiny. It's very—

And when we say a gram and you're saying up to 80 grams, what is that in milligrams? That's 1,000 per gram, right?

Right. That's, yeah, that'd be 80,000 milligrams.

I mean, because right now I have clients that are doing this gallon of water with 4 of these, as we did the math there, right? And it has 1/4 of a teaspoon. So we ended up having a teaspoon of salt. A teaspoon of salt is how many grams would you say?

So a teaspoon of salt is 2,300 milligrams or 2.3 grams of salt.

Sodium. Doesn't seem like a lot, 2.3. And yet we could at times, and during our, these kind of like beginning times when we were preserving food with salt, the numbers were as high as 80 as well back then, or more 25 to 30, or is that hard to say?

Well, we've tested 80 to 100 grams of salt in normal normotensive people, and essentially that usually, you know, doesn't even move the needle on blood pressure in a majority of Who have normal blood pressure, yes.

Because is that the primary concern that the villain of salt has become, right, Dr. James? This idea that blood pressure is going to go too high. Because I think when I said this originally to certain clients, whether they're celebrities or people we work with online or listeners of our podcast, they get concerned that a gram or two extra could literally knock them dead. Tell me, share with everyone how these numbers really— like the greatest concern from having the salt, I mean, What are the side effects? And they can be positive because I feel more energy, more hunger control. But is there any negative at all? Is there anything that the experts were partially right on? Because I feel like they were totally wrong. I mean, I hate to make fun of what this work has been of these other folks, but they've really made this a villain, but it has no ammo. It seems to have no truth to it. I feel like we've been truly misled down a path of concern doesn't exist? Is that possible?

Well, we have been misled because it's a quick fix for someone who is insulin resistant, right? And then you can't handle as much salt. So for those people, they might see some fluid retention, but they've never, you know, sort of helped these people understand the underlying root cause of why all of a sudden you can't tolerate a normal salt intake. So, you know, for, for some people, they eat a normal amount of salt and they don't do well because they can't tolerate it. But if they simply cut the refined carbs, cut the sugar, or they may have high levels of aldosterone, which can be treated. Um, usually there's an underlying reason why. It's very rare that you have a genetic kidney issue where you're overabsorbing salt.

Hey, it's Jorge, and I just wanted to interrupt the show just for a moment to invite you to head on over and sign up for my daily zero hunger email that'll give you each day a simple what to eat to get radical control over your sugar, carb, and salty snack food cravings. And if this is something you want to conquer and make a lifestyle, the newsletter is important. It will really give you tools every day to keep building that momentum to create a lifestyle where you're in control of sugar and carbs. So if that sounds good, check it out. Simply go to zerohungerplan.com. I'll spell it for you, it's with a Z, Z-E-R-O, zerohungerplan.com, and it's It's all free. I'll see you there.

Let's get back to the show.

So it's really just figuring out the root cause of the, of the problem. Um, and then once you fix that, a normal intake of salt seems to be much more beneficial than—

and not to interrupt you, but so you keep— you mentioned sugar and carbs, which obviously is something that we limit and I've recommended to clients and to the listeners of the podcast. Tell us how sugar and carbs with the combination of too much salt, that could be a pairing that could cause problems. And when you remove the salt, why does the pairing disappear? Why does the issue seem to just fade away? I mean, because how does the sugar amplify the negative impact of salt?

Right, right, exactly. So essentially, when you consume a diet high in sugar and carbs, you have an increase in the hormone insulin, and insulin causes the kidneys to over-retain salt. And so when you drop the carbs and sugars, you drop the insulin and now you can start, you know, handling a normal amount of salt appropriately.

And with this appropriate amount of salt, and what would you say for anyone who may be just a standard person listening, they're not following a particular diet, but they definitely are trying to lose weight. And obviously if they cut their carbs, what would be a range that would be on the low and then on the high? Because obviously, you know, I feel this conversation is going to help people to enjoy salt again.. But what would be a range you would give them? And on a high end, I know 80 grams seems excessive. I don't know if you suggest that much for anyone out there, but what would be your range, or so to say?

So if you can fix someone's underlying insulin resistance and get them to a non-salt-sensitive state, then cut the carbs out and the sugars, sort of.

Exactly. I hate to be so, so blunt, right?

Right. No, I mean, and that's the truth, that sometimes health is as simple as that. Really, that 1.5 teaspoons of salt for most people seems to be the sweet spot because when you start going below that level of intake, when you start going below 3,000 milligrams of sodium, all the stress hormones start increasing and heart rate starts going up.

When you go below, say that number again, 3,000?

3,000. When you go below 3,000—

which is 3 grams, correct?

Yeah, that's 3 grams of sodium. Yeah. Um, which is about 1.5 teaspoons. You go below that, and particularly if you get below, um, 1 to 1/2 teaspoon, this is where you really see dramatic rises in things like renin, aldosterone, noradrenaline, epinephrine, right? All these stress hormones get highly activated. We block these stress hormones with medications to reduce cardiovascular disease. So, you know what I mean? So if you go on a low salt diet, you're putting yourself in this very stressful state, and your heart rate can be upwards of 6 to 10 beats per minute higher when you go on these low salt intakes. So when you actually look at it from a— if you multiply the heart rate by the blood pressure on a low salt diet, it's almost always harmful in regards to stressing the heart out.

So with 3 grams being that, what would you say the upper limit would be if someone were very active and sweating, and what would cause them to want more? And what would you say is is, uh, I don't know, give, give us an example of a person that would need double that, triple that. What would be a range that you would take to the higher end? Yeah.

So, I mean, so for normal people that, that 1.5 teaspoons seems to be the sweet spot, right around 3,000 to 3,500 milligrams of sodium seems to be perfect. When you start exercising, particularly in the heat, And this depends on the person. On average, you lose about half a teaspoon of salt per hour of exercise through sweat. So now you got to add in half a teaspoon of salt for every hour that you've exercised. But if you get— if you're doing this in really hot temperatures like 90°F, studies show you can lose anywhere from 1 to 2 teaspoons of salt per hour. So it just really depends on your lifestyle, how hot it is outside, how much you're sweating. Are you going into a sauna? Right. And it also comes from caffeine intake. So coffee not just is not only a diuretic, it's a natriuretic. It causes you to lose a tremendous amount of salt.

So 4 cups of coffee a week. Yeah.

We're all Java junkies, right? And so we never used to drink really coffee on a daily basis in evolutionary time. So all of us are on this natural salt-wasting substance, which is what we call coffee. But any caffeinated beverage is going to cause up to a, you know, half a teaspoon of salt loss. If you consume around this 300 to 400 milligrams of caffeine in like a 1 to 2 hour range.

So you're saying with 1 cup of coffee, and you know, most people don't have a small cup of coffee. It's not something elegant. They go to Starbucks and it's something large, very grande.

Coffee will cause most people to lose about 1/8, 1/8 of a teaspoon of salt. And then when you start Yeah. And then if you get to the 3 to 4 cup range, you lose about half a teaspoon of salt, which most health institutes tell you is the maximum amount you should be consuming. And you're, and you're losing that in just drinking 3 or 4 cups of coffee, or you're losing that in just, you know, 30 to 60 minutes of exercise. So there has to be some nuance in this discussion.

So if someone is listening to this and they get your book and they follow you on social, and we're going to give out all that information and their doctor now says, you're crazy. Who is this guy? This Dr. James? I mean, he, you know, he's just trying to sell books. What do we tell them? What, what part of— because I'm going to tell everyone to please get your book. And of course, we're going to talk about your new book. I want to spend some time on that for just a moment or two, maybe 2 or 3 minutes, because I think it's an incredible book about immunity. And with COVID-19, I mean, we need to lose weight, but we also have to know how to bolster immunity and improve our immunity. But what would you say to someone out there that they— not that they're going to have battles with their physicians, but I'm sure in your working with so many people, if that obstacle occurs where they're getting pressure, whether it's from loved ones, doctors, experts, what does one show them from your book? What is something that you could share? And I don't know if there's a couple of studies or research studies that you could mention, one or two that people could Google that they could literally show to their physician and say, no, 'Look at this. This was a study done at Harvard,' or something like that. I don't know what ammo we could give them, but one piece of really strong ammunition. Obviously, your book is the key one.

Yeah. I mean, well, the book has over 500 references, and it took me over 3 years to research and write this book. It was a labor of love. But I think from a discussion standpoint, you know, doctors, they don't necessarily want to be told by their patient, 'Well, read this book. You're wrong,' right? That's instantly put up a wall and they're going to instantly not be receptive to information. So how you could kind of approach this is, is, you know, Doc, if I lose some weight and maybe cut out some of these carbs and sugar and, and fix my high insulin levels, do you think I could start adding a little bit more salt back to some of my food so I can start eating healthier again and exercising more? Because I don't feel that good on this low-salt diet, right? And if you come from a place of I don't feel that good, and maybe here's a way where I can tolerate a normal salt intake again. That's a better approach, I think.

If there is one study that is the study that is probably the most essential, is there one that comes to mind for your research of the 500 or so?

Right. There's, I mean, it depends on what type of study you're looking at. I mean, INTERSALT was the, was the biggest study that demonized, um, a normal salt intake. The problem is though, is there was a new sort of secondary study when they removed the four, um, sort of tribal groups that were consuming this very, very low amount of salt, like 500 milligrams or less per day. When they removed those four groups in, in, in the INTERSALT study, um, so the INTERSALT contained 52 populations. When you remove those four, it became 48. Blood pressure actually went up, or, uh, actually slightly went down with an increase in salt intake. So InnerSalt was one of the biggest population studies demonizing salt because as salt intake went up in those 52 populations, blood pressure went up. But when you remove the group that was consuming this very, very low range and you looked at an actual, you know, Western population, you looked at 48 countries, blood pressure actually slightly went down as, as salt intake went up. And so that was like a really key observational study. And then there, I mean, the, if you look at any meta-analysis on people with normal blood pressure from the actual clinical studies, low salt intakes don't ever lower blood pressure really more than 1 to 2 points, nothing, virtually nothing, but they always raise heart rate by a fairly dramatic amount. And so those studies are important, but really there's been studies published in New England Journal of Medicine that have shown They're looking at over 100,000 people that if you go below that 3,000 milligrams of sodium per day, you're at a much higher risk of dying from heart disease or all-cause mortality. And so those are really important studies too.

So if the new— the journal of the— what, which journal was New England?

Uh, New England Journal of Medicine.

Yeah. If they're reporting a— or this idea that 3,000 you had mentioned is a good number. Yeah.

Less than 3 was the Worse than 3.

And what is, and what is our current recommended daily allowance in the, in the, in the US, would you say?

Yeah. So most health institutes say you should not eat more than 2,300 milligrams of sodium.

And that, that number is obviously their upper limit too, as you said, with the, with the, uh, the sign that the greater than or less than, the less than sign, right?

Upper limit. Correct.

The upper limit. So for someone watching right now, obviously they need to get your book.

Book.

But I would say, how would you— not to end on this note, because I want to talk about your new book— but how would you put everything they've been told for— I want to say since the refrigerator was invented— to not put away the salt? And not that a particular type of salt is better than another. I know some salts are contaminated with plastics, and we want to try to get more of an ancient source from mines down deep. I love Redmond's Real Salt. Have you heard of those folks back in Utah? They have good salt and has extra minerals in there. But what would you say for someone who's just— their mind has been blown with this conversation. They're like, who are these guys? Who's Dr. James? And obviously this book has been a bestseller and I think it's such a critical resource and you spent 3 years, as you said, putting this together. But what would you say to these people that are listening to this for the first time and really they don't know what to do next? What's the next step for someone who wants to improve their health? Obviously we're going to cut carbs out. I can promise you that. That and sugars. But then when can we start adding the salt back in and get this fix going? I mean, literally, you could start at any time. It's not like, well, I got to check with my doctor, or should they, or what would be the next step? What would you suggest?

Well, I think so many people have metabolic dysfunction and they're on medications that cause blood sugar to drop. So you do want to work with your doctor, because if you start cutting out the refined carbs and sugars, you're not going to need as high of a dose of these medicines. And so you do need to— these people do need to be monitored by their doctor. They should be working in conjunction with their doctor and getting the okay and saying, I plan on reducing my carb intake from 400 grams this week to 300, then maybe to 200, then to 100. And then when can I have my salt intake and, and, and have the blood pressure and all that checked? And typically if you work with your doctor and you start using salt to eat healthy real food, because now all of a sudden and those bitter foods that you didn't used to like, like those greens, they start tasting much better when you start sprinkling a little bit of healthy salt on there.

I agree 100%. And so by adding that, so, and if someone does a cold turkey, they just say literally no pun intended with the turkey, but just cut out the carbs and the sugars. And now they're on a kind of a carnivore diet, kind of like what Dr. Baker and Dr. Saladino have recommended. A lot of my clients are embracing that and they've made the jump. They just decided to cut it out and they're improving their health with salt intake. Is the amount, the 1,000 milligrams per 32 ounces, does that seem reasonable? Or would we say it was about a full teaspoon for a gallon of water? Does that seem like a fair number to you? Do you think it should be a little higher or a little lower? Or is that number seem safe for someone who's done cut out the carbs?

Yeah. I mean, I hate to put a number on it because it just depends on right? And, and so, um, your body typically will tell you how much fluid to consume. And if you start listening to those signals as well, it'll sort of guide you to a good spot for salt intake too.

What, what is a natural way for people to know if they're getting the right amounts? I mean, obviously their hunger gets regulated, correct? Their hunger and energy feels good. And, and maybe what would be the, the gauges for when you're too low on sugar though? Obviously more appetite, more tiredness? Give us a few guidelines so people can kind of figure out that range for themselves if they've cut the carbs out, cut the sugars out. You know, I'm following this guideline, obviously, of about 1,000 milligrams for about 32 ounces of water. And I think we're in a safe limit where if it's a whole gallon of water, which we— I think we calculated is 4 of these, right? It's a teaspoon of salt, which doesn't shock you at all. I think we're in the safe realm. What would be the guidelines to know if that is working for them, based on, is it energy, how they feel, appetite, right? Things like that.

Yeah. So, I mean, the, the most common signs of not having enough salt intake would be, you know, lightheadedness, especially when you go from a seated to a standing position. All of a sudden you feel lightheaded, right? Because the main sign of not having enough salt is a low blood volume. And essentially then all the symptoms stem from that. So when you don't have a good blood volume,, your exercise performance goes down, you feel fatigued, you're lightheaded, you can start getting muscle cramps. So there's, there's these signs to look for, and that's key that maybe you might be deficient in salt.

And if you're too high in salt, what, what, what's a sign that immediately says, oh my gosh, cut back on the salt? Not that we— that would happen. It sounds like our bodies can take high, high levels of that, but you always hear people worried about, um, you know, whether it's the bathroom, going to the bathroom too much. Is there— is that some truth to that?

I think yes, that people who, if you do consume more than a normal intake, your bathroom frequency can increase, of course.

However, both as they would say, number one and number two, so both the urine and going to the bathroom, bowel movements, or just to be specific?

Yeah, I mean, bowel movements could increase too.

Sure. Okay. Okay. But it shouldn't be runny stools or anything like that. I mean, people should be normal. They should be fine. I mean, even with high levels of salt, right? That doesn't— I've heard that as a myth. I think it's more of a myth, right?

Yeah. I mean, it depends on the person. I think the main symptoms and signals for someone who's probably having too much salt, and this is probably because they're metabolically just, you know, they're, they're metabolic syndrome, is they see the swelling in the hands or the feet when they consume salt. And now to me, that's a huge red flag. You know, that person may have insulin resistance or might not be getting enough potassium or magnesium. Them, or there's something going on that should not happen.

Okay. So it's more of a, of a retention in fluid, but that's paired with sugar and carbs, as you had mentioned, right? It's almost always paired.

So it's almost always in these people who have insulin resistance.

Incredible. Incredible. Well, tell us for a moment, I see the book behind you, The Immunity Fix. Obviously the world has changed. It's almost 2021 now. And I feel like obviously the salt fix can be very beneficial to help us with energy, health, regulating appetite. But tell us your newest book, just give us a little insight onto that because I want people to pick that up as well. I think it's a book that right now I think people want to know about, about their immunity. And would you share a little bit about the new book, please? Sure.

So this new book really stemmed from several publications of mine. And then I started saying, well, people don't really read scientific journals. I might as well turn this into a book. And it ended up turning that has, you know, almost 2,500 references. Wow. Wow. It's like this encyclopedia on immune health and, you know, what supplements can help support the immune system. But when I started looking at some of this, I wanted to take a different approach. Most people view their immune system as a mask or not a mask or having a vaccine or not having a vaccine. But people can do things to improve their own immune function. And this is what's important, right? That support their own immune system. And, you know, the study started showing that if you have metabolic syndrome, which is a constellation of 3 or more of the 5 following issues: high blood pressure, high triglycerides, high glucose, high waist circumference, and low HDL. If you have 3 or more of those, that's considered metabolic syndrome. And those people are at a 3.5-fold higher risk of dying from COVID and a 4.5-fold higher risk of ending up in the ICU. So, and we know things that can fix metabolic syndrome rather quickly. I mean, simply going on a diet low in refined carbs and sugar can help fix metabolic syndrome within a few weeks. And if that syndrome is increasing your risk 3 to 4 fold of ending up in the ICU or dying from COVID well then people need to understand that what they're putting in their bodies is determining their own immune health and how well they can fight against viruses.

Uh, I think that is a powerful message. And I feel like in today's world, we feel like so much of what we have going on, we can't control. But the very thing you just mentioned is the one thing we can control, what we eat, how we think. And this book, obviously it's available everywhere. Well, for someone who is considering The Salt Fix and The Immunity Fix, what would you say this book has given readers that The Immunity Fix, the new book, in the sense of a prescription on how to overcome it? And I think that's incredible. There are 5 factors, right? 5 factors and a high waist circumference. Maybe you could talk for a moment on that because I know so many people watching this hate belly fat, but that is a high waist circumference, right? How that can really put you at a high level of concern. I feel like that is why I got through COVID-19 myself. I didn't even know I had it other than a little bit of a difficult at night breathing and I had my asthma inhalers. It helped to some degree, but I got through it. But, you know, I have a flat stomach. Back in the day, 20 years ago or 25 years ago, I was overweight. And so I know a lot of people watching have a high waist circumference. And cutting out sugar and carbs, is that one of the tools that you talk about in the book as well?

Yeah, 100%. And then, well, the one scary thing too is, is that a lot of people can be thin on the outside, but actually fat on the inside, right? They have this fat in and around their organs. It's called visceral fat. I know you're familiar with that.

Oh yeah. Yeah.

Um, it's almost like you're not even protected. Of course you're at a higher risk if you have a high waist circumference, but, but you're not safe, so to speak, even if you have, even if you're thin on the outside because you might be metabolically sick. And that's why checking triglyceride levels and insulin levels and things like that and blood pressure are good signals if you may or may not have insulin resistance. But really too, I mean, the media has covered that the elderly are at, are the most at risk for COVID.

Yes, we hear that a lot. True or false? Or yes, or—

it is true, but we don't have any control over that, right? You don't have control over your age. But what they don't talk about is things like vitamin D deficiency. If you're significantly deficient in vitamin D, that's actually a worse risk factor than being old. It's been shown to increase the risk of dying from COVID by 15-fold. 15-fold.

Vitamin D. Vitamin D. What is a good number from the book that you would suggest? I mean, I feel like you're the doctor that can give us the, the ranges, you know?

Yeah, so vitamin D deficiency is typically diagnosed at less than 20 nanograms per ml, and typical sufficiency levels, or, or levels, you know, that are considered normal, are usually above 30 nanograms. Um, and what's in— what's interesting is we're starting to see studies that if you're at really 55, that, that might be the best level to be at, right? And so, but the most of the population, 1 billion people globally, are vitamin D deficient. And half the global population is vitamin D insufficient, which is like between that 20 and 30, uh, range. And so you have this risk factor where, you know, half the population is either vitamin D deficient or insufficient, and it can increase your risk of, you know, having a poor COVID outcome by sixfold fold and increase the risk of dying up to 15-fold. And, and to give you a comparison, if you're— the risk factor for if you're over 60 is really only about 9-fold. So this is a worse risk factor, something that we have control over compared to being old, right?

That's incredible. And you talk about this, I'm sure, extensively in the book. So if, if vitamin D is one of the elements that we're missing, and I know we can get it from the sun, correct? Is that partially what your prescription would be that, or give us that number again you gave us and then the way to measure it. Was it— what was the number?

Yeah. So typically most vitamin D deficiency is less than 20, insufficiency is between 20 and 30, and then sufficiency is above 30.

And what is that range? 30—

what are the units or how to measure nanograms?

Nanograms. So typically if you go to Whole Foods, for example, or you go to your health food store, what would be a way to— is that typically what they, they put on the bottles just to educate everyone?

Uh, typically they do. Um, they've actually switched from international units to micrograms on the actual bottle, so the bottle won't tell you, you know, um, your, your blood level, so to speak. Your doctor typically works with you on how to— what dose to get you up to that type of level.

Got it, got it. So, um, to end on this note, I feel like people need to know how to stay in touch with you on social media, your website. Would you mind sharing how people can stay connected to you and where online you're located so people can hopefully follow a lot of what you do and subscribe to your newsletter and things like that?

Yeah, so I'm typically most active on Instagram and Twitter, which is @DrJamesDinic, which is D-I-N-I-C, or my website is drjamesdinic.com. And Amazon has, you know, The Sulfur Fix and The Immunity Fix and all my other I love it.

And I know you've written other books as well, but what would you say for 2021 is one of your goals with all that we have in front of us in the sense of a world where we are not healthy, we're not well, and obviously there's so many things we need to embrace. I feel like, is there a message you want to share with anyone as we wrap up here? That would be the, the, the, I would hope the, the pep talk or the motivation, because I feel like we have a lot of power, we have a lot of control. As you said, we can modify— can't modify our age. We can't maybe change what the world is doing, but we can change what we do to some degree. What would you share to give someone a little push right now? Because I feel like we're at a point right now where they can, they can get a book, they can get one of your books, hopefully both, but they can also do something different with what they're eating and what they're doing.

Right, right. And that's exactly the message of the book is that you are in control of your health. There are things that you you can do to support your own immune systems. And, you know, ultimately we're gonna have other viruses that we have to deal with in this world, right? Even if we get a vaccine and it's your own health, that's not only gonna determine how well you can fight other viruses, but the leading causes of death in the US are cardiovascular disease, cancer, type 2 diabetes, obesity. That is primarily driven through diet and lifestyle. And so we can't lose sight of those leading killers because right now we do have a spike in, you know, deaths from COVID We gotta look at the whole picture, and ultimately you are in control of what goes in your mouth and, you know, your exercise and things like that.

All right, today's episode is complete, guys. Thank you so much for listening, and I want to ask you to please subscribe to the show. On Apple Podcast. And please leave a review on Apple as well. Give it 5 stars if you think the show has helped you in some way to transform your thinking. I hope it has. And more importantly, share your comments, your review of what today's episode did for your thinking, how it shifted your thinking, and what you got out of it. Because I think that is how we spread this. And for me, this is a revolution. This is not a podcast. This is a way of life. And I hope to transform over a million lives in the next couple years, and I need your help. So please become part of the Zero Hunger Revolution by leaving that review on Apple Podcasts and subscribing today. Thanks so much. Have a great one. Peace and purpose, and I'll see you on the next episode.