Why Older Adults Feel Lonely Even With Family Around

Welcome to the Living to 100 Club Podcast. Here's our host, Dr. Joseph Casciani.

Welcome to the Living to 100 Club, where we explore what it really means to live longer and better. I'm Dr. Joe Casciani, a geropsychologist focused on the mindset, habits, and science of aging well. Each episode brings you practical ideas and conversations to help you stay engaged, resilient, and purposeful at any age. And now, today's program. In today's episode, I speak with Amanda Montague of Carleton University about her innovative community-based research on social isolation and loneliness among older adults. Also on our program today is Anna Kulitz, Chair of the Senior Watch in Ottawa, Canada. Working closely with Anna's group in Ottawa, Amanda used participatory methods, including workshops and digital storytelling, to better understand how older adults experience connection in everyday life. Rather than focusing only on isolation, the project explored what helps people feel connected, revealing an important insight: loneliness may be more pro— prevalent and more complex than social isolation alone. Their conversation highlights how social connection is shaped not just by relationships, but also by the design of the communities. We'll learn more a little, a little bit after I describe their backgrounds. Amanda Montague, Dr. Montague received her PhD from the University of Ottawa in 2019. Her dissertation, Mobile Memories: Canadian Cultural Memory in the Digital Age, explored how mobile technologies and locative media shape everyday experiences of memory and place. Amanda has extensive experience developing community-engaged and experiential learning courses as an instructor, collaborator, and consultant. Since 2016, she has designed projects in digital humanities that promote creativity, collaboration, and community building. Amanda continues to advance interdisciplinary, community-driven digital scholarship while fostering equitable co-teaching and co-learning environments for students, instructors, and community members. Anna Kulitz is chair of OSCA Senior Watch Old Ottawa South, also known as Swooz. She retired in 2012 after a 40-year career in community and hospital work. Wanting to age in place in her inner urban community of Old Ottawa South, Anna and other residents recognized barriers to healthy aging and independent living. In 2018, they founded Swoose to raise awareness and advocate under improvements in healthcare, housing, social connection, and winter walkability. Anna graduated from the Academy of Social Sciences and Social Work in Rotterdam, the Netherlands, and has held professional social work registrations in British Columbia, Ontario, and nationally in Canada. In 2025, Anna received the Ontario Senior Achievement Award. Welcome to both of you to our program today.

Thank you. Thank you for having us.

Thank you.

Great. You're welcome.

Very much.

Well, I'm excited to have you both because you're very knowledgeable about this important topic of loneliness and isolation in seniors and older adults. And I think we can take a deep dive into this topic. Let's start with the basic question. What's the difference between social isolation and loneliness? And why is this distinction important?

Yeah, it's a, it's a good question. It was one that we really started from when we created this research partnership. We, our first step in formulating our research questions was to do a literature review. So it is quite clear in the literature that loneliness and social isolation are two distinct concepts. And here in Canada, we have the National Institute on Aging. So with, for aging and older adults, Loneliness is considered a subjective distressed feeling that arises from a perceived gap between desired social relationships and actual social relationships, whereas social isolation measures more of an objective deficiency in the number or the quality of social connections or interactions. And so they are related, but they're also recognized as distinct constructs that, you know, a person may be socially isolated without feeling lonely, Or a person may have social connections, they may have a spouse, they may have family close by, but feel very lonely within that context.

Mm-hmm.

So in our study, we were really trying to understand what are the contributing factors because they are shared across both. Rather than measuring instances of isolation or loneliness in the neighborhood, we just wanted to understand how those contributing factors came into play for both isolation and loneliness.

Sure. Yeah, I'd like to add that even though we are concerned about loneliness because it is so prevalent, we feel that social connections are more exciting to discuss, you know, something we can do about. And Amanda already related that already. Yeah.

Hmm, yeah, because as Amanda said, socialization has the objective measures. We can take a look at that, count it, see it's improving, see if it's decreasing. Is social isolation always an unpleasant or negative situation for the older adult?

I would say no, it's, it's some people, um, really like to be socially connected all the time, and others are quite happy to be on their own and they can entertain themselves. That's my observation.

Sure, the difference between being alone, living alone, yeah, and being lonely, right? Yeah, yeah. So you focused on connection rather than isolation to get at this, your subject's individual perceptions and attitudes about their situation?

That's exactly it. It was sort of twofold, um, and this was really driven by Anna and by the, the Swoose team, the team of seniors that we worked with, um, to frame around connection. As Anna said, people are a bit more inclined to talk about connection. Perhaps it's less stigmatized than talking about loneliness. We also know that people experiencing social isolation are the hardest to reach. And this was another question as we were planning the research of how are we even, you know, with the limited resources that we had, a group of graduate students and our team, how are we even going to find the people that are socially isolated? So in reframing, it allowed us to kind of include a broader range of participants. But go ahead, Anna.

Yeah, I, um, I would say I know my community and I know people as a social worker, and I would say people are social beings. And, um, so I think if you feed on that, and once there is a certain trust, they might share, you know, they might recognize that there's loneliness and it's easier for them to talk about. I think you first have to develop a relationship is, sorry, the subject. You know, because when it was something actually, loneliness, social isolation was something that we already became aware of in our community for many years, but especially in 2024, it was, actually I brought it to, I'm on the board of directors of the local community association and I brought it up, and, um, people were not aware of it. And, uh, I think that COVID, if we think back to 2020, that, um, it was obvious that it was more prevalent, and, and people were motivated to do something. There were initiatives, but then after COVID— you know, people were supposed to, yeah, be fine. And that was not the case.

Yeah.

Yeah. So COVID really masked a lot of the isolation there. So your study, the community-based study, you reached out to seniors in your community. How many seniors? And what were the results? What were the findings?

Mm-hmm. So we had about 36 unique participants across 3 workshops or 3 community-based sessions, which, uh, for us, for community-based research, was actually quite a good number. And we also ran a digital survey alongside, again, to try to reach folks that weren't interested or able to come out to participate. And we had about 60 respondents to the survey. And we learned a lot of really interesting things from our multiple ways of collecting data. The main sort of overarching theme that stood out for us was that connection relief thrives in informal, local, and outdoor spaces. So yes, formal services are important in establishing social connection and identifying social isolation for older adults. But in terms of those social connections, we really saw from our participants that it grows through these small repeated acts of neighborliness, through shared spaces that feel inclusive and comfortable for older adults, and these kind of informal networks of care that can be established through maybe what starts as a formal connection or a formal program or activity.

Hmm.

Wow. So the physical environment really directly shapes social connection for better or worse. We saw barriers in that.

So programs are good, but they're not enough.

Right. So I mean, certainly not. It's not one size fits all. We know that. We know that the word senior encompasses a very wide range of ages and life experiences. And so we saw that people were interested in more programming, of course, more varieties of programming, but also they were interested in social opportunities that weren't tied to a specific activity, because sometimes the activity can become limiting, right, as people's abilities, interests, or needs change with aging. So we really saw, I think, one of the most surprising findings was the call for a need for third spaces that were more accessible, low barrier social spaces that really just supported older adults being together, not necessarily doing something together.

Hmm. Yeah, that's interesting because I, you know, I spend some time at senior communities and I hear time and again that a lot of people just don't leave their apartments. And there is a, you know, a wealth of programs, activities, very useful. Social activities. And we always wonder what's going to help people draw it. And I think you touched on something important, Amanda, that many times people don't want that program. They don't want a kind of a structured thing. They just want the space, the connection, without necessarily having an agenda. Does that make sense?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it's almost, um, vision that people have a barrier for whatever reason. Um, maybe I, I, you, you notice it in the States. I come from another culture and I find, uh, the people there are more gregarious. I, I've noticed that in the States too. People here are a bit reserved, I find, and they almost need permission to reach out And I think if you facilitate that, it helps. And I find my community now very friendly. People just smile at one another. They walk, they talk, you know, they make comments on one another's dog or the weather. And in our community, that is very acceptable. And, um, we have also the type of community where we do a lot of, um, walking and what is called active transportation. And I think that also contributes to, um, uh, meeting people. But, you know, the, the— what I found interesting, and then in the study, that I think I know quite a few people in my community. We have about 6,000 people living here in Old Ottawa South, but there were were people coming to the workshops that I have never seen.

There were—

I only knew a few, and I found that so interesting, you know. It wasn't always the same old bunch that came out. So I think it were the workshops and themselves that appealed to people, and they had permission to go, and they didn't have to pay, and it It was very good to see that. And it wasn't a lot that— well, I mean, you gave them exercises. And I think in our community, I'm proud to say people are kind of curious and they are educated. And yeah, so it's maybe not a typical community. Joe have, and you go to people that are shut in their house for whatever reason, uh, it might be harder to get them out. But, um, and this, this was my observation.

Sure, sure. Yeah, and I can see apartment buildings in, you know, many big cities where people are living and maybe alone and not have a lot of, um Opportunities to get out. So I think I was impressed with your study, Amanda, when I first heard, because you, you're able to draw some conclusions, some inferences for city planners and, you know, what changes can be made or should be made in communities that might help to kind of draw this, you know, this collection out and get over some of those hurdles.

Certainly, you know, access is always very important, so making accessible entrances to buildings. Here in Ottawa, winter conditions can be quite debilitating if the snow removal isn't done effectively or properly. It really can shut off your world and your access in a very walkable neighborhood like Old Ottawa South. But even just sidewalk infrastructure cracks or High curb cuts or little potholes. These are all things that can be really difficult, make it really difficult for older adults to get outside and then to socially connect. Lack of benches was something that we heard quite frequently. Just easy resting places, convenient resting places. And that coupled with kind of unreliable or limited transit options can be quite, yeah, again, can sort of really contribute to feelings of isolation or social disconnection.

Yeah. So seating, walking spaces, room. You mentioned transit, public transportation, or public transit, parking as well.

People commented there was, you know, limited parking in this particular neighborhood. And yeah, you know, we, Ottawa again, we're sort of seeing lots of issues with our transit at the moment. And I think, you know, winter is a hot topic again because of where we're located, but summers are difficult too with climate change. We see increased hotter days and lack of ability to find a place to rest, find a place to cool down, again, can really limit seniors' comfort level and ability to go outside and connect and make use of services.

Yeah, if I may add to that, I found it interesting that shaded benches were mentioned. I mean, I know that our benches are under the trees, but maybe there should be a different design. And I'm just in recognition of the climate change and that it's just Yeah, you want to sit in the shade. You're looking for shade. You like to sit down, but you don't want to burn. So I found that interesting. You know, there were many.

Yeah, we see that in bus stops, or at least I do out here, that are covered. And just park benches may or may not be covered. But yeah, there's a trend, more covers for those bus stops. Yeah, people, all people, all ages. Are waiting.

And it would help in wintertime when people are waiting. But I think people that want to socialize, you know, it's nice when you meet somebody, you know, and there is a bench nearby and say, oh, let's sit down and let's have a visit. You know, just a spontaneous thing. I think there is a real need for that.

Sure. So, are there things that communities can offer the older adult population to, you know, elicit this participation? Can they offer more groups or events in their communities? I don't know. What do you think?

I think so. I think that, I mean, you say communities, it don't have to be the community centers or are the government, but I think also some stores. And, um, well, we have a very welcoming, a very welcoming library and welcoming— I'm thinking of the Black Squirrel— welcoming secondhand bookstore. And that, um, that is something that they can do. And hopefully will do more of. Just taking initiatives and we have a place where people sing. I'm thinking of Redbird. We have quite a few, Joe. We have quite a few amenities in our neighborhood. Quite a few. And it is, I think, also the knowledge sharing of what places are welcoming. Was important. And that's why I found, for example, the mapping, the social mapping, that exercise, it was fun to really check how you had to dots and then you could press on the dots and then, hey, what's happening there? You know, oh, I didn't know that. And I found that it really got to your community talking because then, you know, I kept hearing, oh, but you didn't include this and that wasn't included, you know. So I see that in my community work, it is more to mobilize the community and get people involved and for people to become aware. And that is a bit of a concern for me that I think everywhere, maybe even in the drugstore, how there could be a screen when people say, hey, where can I go for this or that? That they just have that access that they— not everybody likes to always go on their phone, but, you know, it is, um, at least I, I, I got many ideas out of the research.

Yeah. So when you talk about the mapping, Anna, what were you able to show? Maybe hotspots where more people were interacting and you could identify what was there that drew them?

Is that Sort of, yeah. So we had had one of our activities was barrier and services mapping within the neighborhood. So in the workshops, participants would, would locate on a paper map where they go, where they feel connected, where they, where they feel places of perhaps disconnection or barriers to connection, and where else they might see potential for connection. And so part of the digital storytelling piece was to digitize all of these suggestions. And so yeah, that's exactly what Anna's referring to, is a sort of prototype map where, um, you could see the places that were identified as important sites of connection for those who participated.

It's a fun map because for people in our neighborhood, it's fun to press on a spot and then, oh, find out what's happening. You know, it is— I can even see, hey, you could start a conversation. You know, you could agree or disagree, or maybe You know, I wish that your study wouldn't stop with this one. You know, you could go on and not just to this neighborhood. And that's something that my vision is, that it can be extended to other neighborhoods and different results will come out.

Yeah, because I think like we've said, of course people have different social preferences. Some people are more extroverted, and this is of course true no matter your age. But I think having access, as Anna said, to better access to information about existing activities was really important. And then just markers of welcoming and inclusive places for older adults, that's also, you know, an important piece of information sharing that I think could go a long way in, again, making these include our communities feel a bit more inclusive and a bit more comfortable.

Sure.

And then also the coordination among services, right? I think your question earlier around what can our neighborhoods do, there are community centers, there are different hubs, but they also are sometimes disconnected in terms of knowledge about what the other offers or how they might coordinate resources or share resources to support the community. So there's lots of potential there.

Yeah, and not to duplicate so much. So what you're saying is the information, the education goes a long way to let people know what, what in fact we do have here, a lot of our activity. Anna, you mentioned amenities. You have a lot of amenities. What, what were the popular ones that drew the people in? What?

Yeah, the one For example, the, um, uh, the shopping, uh, Cedars, and it's a place that has been around for a long time, and, uh, very friendly staff there. They have interesting stuff in the store. Um, we have a Shoppers Drug Mart, and they have senior, um, days on Thursdays where you get 20% off. Well, you see a lot of seniors there, and I think that they tend to Elvis Presley a lot. Um, I find that, uh, the Mayfair had a local, um, cinema, um, certain movies, but you see quite a few gray hairs there, and it's easy to talk to people here. People are very friendly.

Um, parks, those were also Yeah. Key spaces. Outdoor green spaces.

Oh, that's good though. Mayfair is a grocery store?

No, Mayfair is the cinema.

Oh, the cinema. Okay.

Yeah.

And they have not a typical, well, independent cinema. You know, say America, they have independent movies, you know, a bit off. And I think since we are Well, maybe a bit of a university ghetto. The kind of people that live here, they like, they like that type of movies. Yeah, we are kind of a homogeneous community. This, um, I would say this, independent thinkers, but also very social.

So yeah, it's very walkable, I think. So a lot of what we found, I think, unique to this neighborhood because there's a lot of multi-use spaces, there's a lot of shops, there's a lot of services within walking distance. You know, of course, in more rural or even like suburban areas, you would see differences in terms of what we've learned, but it all sort of points to the same thing. Accessible neighborhood infrastructure can really go a long way to just getting people out of their homes comfortably. And post-COVID, we still see a lot of challenge, not just for seniors, but particularly for seniors.

Yeah, I think this is useful information. I mean, you're talking about the accessibility. We need to be able to get around walking ideally, but having some simple public transportation. Yeah, jitneys or whatever, but also having something to draw the people, like the discounts at the stores or the music. I mean, I can just I have a friend who has a band and they love to play to senior groups. And I'm thinking, well, why don't you try going to some of these large drugstores when they're having some special? You can play for a couple of hours and drum. So I think it's, it's kind of creating that energy in these locations. And certainly we need to educate the community about it. But it's more than just going to pick up some medications at the drugstore.

Create some fun.

Create some fun. Yeah.

Just create fun. And I found, for example, one of the— well, there were several good suggestions, and I liked that Plants Up Pop to just— there is— I can think of one parking lot, deserted lot. And I think that would be fun to have what you mentioned, Joe. If you could have a band, I know actually a band, and if they would like to play there, I think, and if you promote it the right way and create some energy in the community, maybe have some shade in the summer, yeah, people would come out and they would talk. Stop me from thinking more.

That could be a good draw. And you know, this band I'm thinking of plays a lot of Elvis Presley music, so it might fit with the population.

Yeah, yeah, it does, you know, kind of take us back to that third spaces idea, which as Anna said, you know, redesigning an existing empty lot or vacant space can really go a long way. And also the conversion of existing accessible spaces for different uses We have a lot of churches in the neighborhood that are accessible but perhaps don't offer programming or, or aren't targeting programming in a way that is inclusive for seniors in the community. So there is so much potential within our neighborhoods to share resources and talents and space, and that really can go a long way.

Yeah, yeah, there are a lot of unused spaces, that's for sure. But as you say, the The fun component makes, just adds another level of interest. Yeah.

We all like to have fun. And that's why we got away from the social isolation. You know, like, yeah. I can think of one person for whatever reason, she was stuck at home and said, oh yeah, there was a day that she didn't come out for 10 days, period. And. So I happened to get her involved in programming, and money was for her barrier too. But so, and we are addressing that with the community association. And she's a fun person. And there was more, the more I can think of another person who identified herself as lonely. And oh, she really signed up. She wants to be a volunteer whenever there's something, you know, she wants to do it. And, um, yeah, get people out and connect. I think it's the personal connection. If, if, if the community says to them, you are important, we like to know, you know, come on out. I think that's an important message, that instead of people maybe being considered a nuisance, no, just plain friendliness and Yeah, I found it was— when I look back at the pictures that were taken at the sessions, Amanda, you could see how engaged people were, you know, and they kept talking and they didn't want to leave.

They didn't want to leave. I know, I know. And that was one of the kind of nice surprises of the research, and it speaks to the nature of participatory action research. And again, this— the research that highlights individual lived experience and sharing of stories and really prioritizes that as the expertise, right? As individuals, as experts in their own lives, of their own circumstances. And so the activities, yes, they were data collection, but it wasn't, you know, we want to talk to you, isolated person. It was really come out and let's talk about the things that matter to us. And so to see the social connections that were established just from the research activities in and of themselves was really nice.

Yeah.

Added layer.

Without the labeling, so to speak.

Yeah.

Yeah. So, one thing I've learned is, you know, I kind of immerse myself in strategies for successful aging is that I always encourage people that you have to take some steps yourself. You can't wait for people to knock on your door and say, here I am, I'm gonna, I'm gonna bring you to whatever. So there's an element there of people taking some responsibility for, um, you know, connection and staying involved. Because yeah, we can, we can locate and help to draw people out, but for the most part, I think it's going it's still going to require that self-ownership, that initiative to do something and reach out. I don't know what you think about that.

Yeah, it does. And it's, you know, I was thinking about the barriers, but I think if there is decline, for example, if you have always considered yourself pretty competent and then there is cognitive decline, You know, that it is important to accept it. And that doesn't mean that you can't smile at somebody in the neighborhood, you know, and just be a friendly person and a friendly face and say hi to the kids. Everybody's important. I know that there was a person who didn't come back after the information session, and there was a language barrier, but I knew she wanted to be involved. And we that of course in a multi-ethnic society that language barriers. It was another person who was concerned about mobility. She wanted to be involved, but well, and then of course we had the parking. Yeah, that is, you know, I know that they had for the kids, they have a horse wagon rides in the park during the summer festival. But I mean, we could have a rickshaw. I know there's across the canal, there is a center where they have a bike. Just to have that kind of program that people can hop in and don't have to worry about their mobility. Yeah, just to say, hey, you are invited. And I find promoting in our neighborhood— so we have the articles, we have digital newsletters, we do postering. But I think it is word of mouth that creates a snowball of, hey, come on out, it's fun.

Yeah, it is that encouragement, like you said, in the face of as you also said, these sort of changes in functional conditions or in mobility conditions, and all of those things can be really— can really exacerbate how difficult it is to make social connections. But as you, as you mentioned, there is so much on the other side of that. There are so many people that do want to connect and spend time together, and loneliness comes and goes, right? It doesn't need to be pervasive. It doesn't need to, to be constant. And so Perhaps, you know, we didn't even really scratch the surface of caregivers and how that can impact isolation and loneliness. And but those, those, you know, those responsibilities and those life circumstances, they change, right? And so being open to getting into social connection when in different circumstances I think is also important, challenging. I, I obviously am not suggesting that it's easy, but, um, uh, there are ways out and through. And sometimes it is just, uh, feeling that a place is inclusive for you, or feel— or knowing what's, again, what's going on in your community can really make or break the experience, I think.

Well, um, just We're just about out of time. I have one more question for you both. From your research and your personal experience, what does feeling connected mean to you, and how can someone increase their own sense of connection?

That was a good question. I'm thinking myself that I feel connected, um, that if I can knock on somebody's door and just say hi and maybe have a glass of wine when it's sort of the happy hour time. But also, if I know somebody, oh, you know, Ian, he could maybe put my winter tires in the car, or so-and-so could maybe help me figure out that electronic problem. And it is nice. It's so helpful if you live in a community where people then you can knock on their door and then, or see, you know, being picked up from a medical appointment, you know, that's— but personally, it makes me feel connected. And I can phone people, you know, to say, hey, you know, about just for a chat, or just say, hey, let's have a telephone chat, or that's important to have.

Yeah, I think for us, from maybe the research side, and for me as an instructor working with young people, with graduate students, I think what this community-based research project really showed us was how communities can mobilize around the things that matter to them and the needs that they, that they have to improve their circumstances, to improve things like ability to age in place. And it was so inspiring to see, as Anna mentioned earlier, just how engaged this community was, how much enthusiasm people brought to these conversations, how important, how vitally important these questions were, and how a community can really come together to talk about the things that matter to them and to action on the things that matter to them. I think that was one of the biggest learnings for my students and the sort of intergenerational connections that happened through this project. You know, that's the power of community and that's why connection is important.

And for example, I haven't mentioned to you yet, there's somebody organizing a repair café. So in the neighborhood where you can, you know, there's different talents to come together, say, if you maybe your bicycle or sewing, you know. And so I don't know, it's Guy that's organizing it. And so that's— I wonder what will happen, but we have to support it. And so that could bring people out too. You say if you have something concrete, you know, that you to say, oh, I saw that. And yeah, actually, this or that doesn't work. You know, I had it myself as a radio and went to a repair cafe. But now they want to bring it to the neighborhood. And I haven't mentioned to us this morning, I heard of somebody, a man down the street who offered to say, well, I'll help. People. I like to help people, you know. And we know where he lives, and if they have need something to lift, you know, I'll help. And it's, uh, yeah, that brings me— we could make maybe create a network of helpers. I don't know, it sounds a bit boring, but, um, no, but, but that is important, reliable helpers. And yeah, yeah.

Well, you've, you've done some great research, you've got some great findings, and I think you're getting those big wheels turning now. And yeah, a lot of things can spring from that, you know. As you said, Anna, just knowing that you can call somebody up, or, you know, I, I always recommend, you know, don't be afraid to knock on your neighbor's door and invite yourself in for coffee, or make a call to a our distant cousin or anybody, but to reach out ourselves. And, you know, I'm doing some series of presentations I call New Chapters and New Purpose. And it's all about helping people see the opportunities that lie ahead and what there is to celebrate about aging and encouraging people to, you know, create some new, some new goals, some new chapters. And I'm doing a presentation next week at a nice community and we're going to break up into small groups and, you know, here's some questions. And what's the next chapter you want to start? And we're going to write it down on an index card. And because I think it— we, you know, we've been accustomed to kind of just naturally slowing down with aging. And I say no. Why? Because we have so much opportunity now. Let's look at opening new doors and let's see what's, what's next. So that's part of help people think about what we can do that's, you know, getting out of a same old routine. And I think you're— I commend you both for the research you did because I think we get people thinking about, you know, all the pluses about aging. We talk a lot about what there is to lose, and I'd like to talk about what we gain as we get older. So, yeah.

And again, I would find it important for people to say, hey, what would you do for fun? Or what Yeah, but gives you joy. It doesn't always have to be so learned or serious. No, it is like one goal of mine is when I have the time is I like to play, learn to play ukulele. I'm not good. It's on my bucket list. And I would like to pick up piano again. And so there's a long bucket list, but I have to find the time and not become involved with research.

Yeah. Well, I bought myself a set of drums during COVID so I'm—

Oh, good.

Yeah. Thank you both for being part of this program. I think it was a great conversation. Thanks to our listeners. If today's conversation gave you something to think about, you'll find more ideas, tools, and discussions at mylivingto100.club and inside my community forum.

Livingto100.community.

Until next time, keep moving forward with purpose, curiosity, and a commitment to living well at every age. Thank you, Amanda. Thank you, Anna. Appreciate your participation, and kudos on the good work you're doing.

Thank you for having us.

You're welcome.