Ep. 180: From Budget Cube to Fleet Jungle: A Fleet Manager’s Wild Ride to the Top of Public Works

This is the Fleet Success Show dedicated to helping you and your fleet succeed using the experience of fleet professionals and Hall of Fame fleet legends. The show that explores how the pillars of stakeholder satisfaction, intentional culture, resource efficiency, and risk management all combine to lead your fleet to success.

We're glad you're here.

Now let's get into the show. Hey, welcome back for another episode of the Fleet Success Show with your hosts, Josh Turley, Mark Canton.

Hey, Josh. Hey, everybody.

Good to see everybody. Joining us in studio today, we have Harold Siwenza from City of Avondale. How you doing, Harold?

I'm doing great. How are you?

Awesome. So obviously, you guys know Mark and I. You know, I've been CEO over here for 20-some-odd years working with RTA and the fleet management system. Mark, you have a plethora of fleet management experiences, but, you know, as a consultant, as an analyst, and now as head of product designing the FMIS of the future. So Harold, briefly for our listeners, this is the first time they're getting to meet you. Give us a little history. What's, you know, the Harold story?

Absolutely. So my current role, I'm with the city of Avondale, a suburb here from Phoenix, Arizona area, and I'm the assistant director for public works. So my story is, it's a little different, a little unique, I think, when it comes to fleet professionals and fleet managers. But my— I started off as— I'll start off with when I was a child, when I was a kid, you know, I grew up way back, way back in the beginning. You know, for some it doesn't seem like it wasn't that long ago. They think I'm still 15. You know, that's a good problem. Yeah. But no, my dad owned a used car dealership for many, many, many years. And so I grew up in that world. I went from cleaning cars to fixing, you know, little things here and there, very minor things, and then went into selling vehicles. I did that for quite some time through my college career, and then I decided I wanted a change of pace, and so I decided to go back to school and get my master's in public administration, where I wanted to work in the public sector in government. Didn't know exactly what I wanted to do. It was just one of those things where I knew I wanted to work in government, but exactly what, how, exactly what I wanted to do, I had no clue. Luckily, in my very first class, I met my future boss. We sat at a table very similar to this. The professor said, "Look to your left, look to your right. Find one person, that'll be your partner for the semester." And ended up working with a future mentor and my first boss where I ended up working at Maricopa County in the central budget office as a budget analyst. When I was asked to interview and join the team, I was excited, and the first, but, I honestly asked her, her name is Angie, I said, "Angie, so what does a budget office do? I have no idea what a budget office does." Again, being in a privately owned, family owned company, when you go to a large organization like Maricopa County, there's a lot of things you just don't know and don't understand. So she explained it to me. I think I felt like I could do the job and I was chosen for the job as an analyst. I was there for about 5 years, worked my way up to a supervisor. I then had the opportunity within Maricopa County to work for the fleet department for Maricopa County as the administrator. And I felt as though that was a good move for me. As a budget analyst and in the central budget office, you oversaw multiple department budgets. And the equipment services department for Maricopa County was one of the departments that I oversaw their budgets. So I got to know them really well, got to know the director for the fleet group, I got to learn everything about their operations, and it really intrigued me because it felt a little bit like home, right? Sure, I was never in fleet management, but I was always around vehicles my whole life. And so it kind of felt like home, but I knew that I had a lot to learn. So I was able to move over to become the administrator for equipment services at Maricopa County. And I had to learn quick. I had to learn quickly about fleet. I had to learn quickly about technicians, what, you know, their nuances, their pros, their cons, heavy duty, light duty, fuel management, vehicle replacements, fleet management software.

Different than the used car world.

Oh, so much different than the used car world. I was just putting cars up for sale, you know, and now here I gotta actually manage, you know, a fleet. And obviously as the administrator, I had one piece of the department And there was obviously the maintenance side. So I oversaw vehicle acquisition and disposition, parts, fuel, and then the get ready shop. We had a get ready shop inside Maricopa County Fleet. And, and then any everything else from a department standpoint, from a leadership standpoint, you know, anything HR related, budgets, strategic planning. So all those other things that, you know, are you don't necessarily learn within a role as a mechanic. Nobody teaches you. No.

Whether you're a mechanic coming up that way or coming over, that just goes untaught.

Just go do it. I had to learn quickly. And we had the maintenance side of the house as well, which we had a maintenance manager for that took care of that. But still, I needed to learn all of those operations and aspects of the organization. And so one of the things that I did was join a nonprofit organization called FleetPros. Fleet Management Association. Well, let me phrase this. My boss told me to join.

Go learn something, kid.

And I think that's a very common thing where your boss says you're gonna do this. And so, but I'm very eternally grateful to my boss at that time, because little did I know how much I would learn being in that org— being in this organization, not only learning about fleets, how how to manage fleets, technologies, getting to know industry leaders and whatnot, but also taught me a lot of the soft skills about how to work with others, being on a board, being able to work with others in a way that I never had in the past that really helped me grow in my own professional life that I think is a great tool and a great thing for everyone to do. And then, I wanted to move out of Maricopa County.

I'm gonna pause you there. All right. Let's come back to that part of the story.

Okay.

'Cause you've already hit a few things I wanna ask and I don't wanna forget 'em. Okay. So first off, one thing you're saying aligns a lot with what we talk about. Like go get part of an organization. If you're new to the industry or you're coming over into industry, which we're seeing a lot more of right now, you absolutely have to go get involved. That's how you learn a lot and you get a lot of help and a lot of assistance, a lot of support that way. So just want to reinforce that for the listeners. But another thing is you said get ready shop for those out there, it means upfitting. They do too much of it. I love you, Maricopa, but you're doing too much of it in-house. But that's another story. Tell us a couple of quick questions for you. First is tell us like, you know, you're over here in your budget and you're right. And so like a lot of people, I talk often about how the folks in the finance world don't understand fleet and part of their job is to sort of translate operations into numbers, right? So you came in from a very different angle than a lot of professionals. You had a perception of fleet and then you get there, like, kind of give me the comparison and the contrasting of that, right? Like what changed once you got there versus what your perception was going into it?

Yeah, absolutely. So one of the things that I learned quickly when I was in the budget office is that because I came from selling vehicles, customer service. For me, that was number one. When I was in the budget office, I understood that my role was that I was providing a service to the departments that were reporting their finances to me. And how could I be an advocate for them? Because during budget season, we receive all their budgets, they give us the justifications for why they need it, when they need it. And I always tell them, help me justify, help, like, sell it to me. So I can help, so then I can actually sell it to our leaders, to our city leaders. I can—

And that's a struggle for a lot of folks.

It's a big struggle, absolutely. And so, I was a big advocate for all of my departments, for those who were really, could truly justify their needs for their operations increases and whatnot for different things that they're trying to do. So when I went over to, and so I was an advocate for all my departments. So when I went over to equipment services, I had that mentality already to say, okay, I know what it takes to get something passed through budget, through our finance teams. I know what they're looking for. I know what questions they need to— they ask. So I know what it potentially could take to get things, you know, passed and get done. And quite frankly, I think that's one of the reasons why the director at that point hired me because he knew I could probably do that for the department, right?

So you could already speak the numbers and the financial, which is often the missing Yes.

And so when I went over, one of the things though that was apparent to me in the fleet department was, or equipment services was, they were afraid to ask.

Why do you think that was?

I think it's just, there was a perception. There was a perception that we can't ask for more than what we receive every year, period. And there could have been maybe some budget folks in the past that maybe gave that directive and that edict. There could have been other city or county leaders in the past that did the same thing too. And And so they decided, you know what, it's easier just to leave it alone and we're going to live within the means or the amount that they give us every year. And one of the things I found out quickly was that they were very short in their budget needs for vehicle replacements every single year. I remember when I was in the budget office, we would say, here's $3 million for your general fund allocation. We will receive a list of, let's say, 100+ vehicles that need to be replaced within that $3 million budget. And when I was in the budget office, I thought, oh, they got the money that they need. They're not asking for anything else. But then when I got there, I would say, okay, show me the list. Before budget season came along, my first time inside the department, I was like, give me what we need. And so, well, here's a priority list number 1, 2, and 3. And I said, huh? I was like, where was this when I was over on the other side? And they're like, oh, well, we know we're never gonna get more than $3 million. And I said, says who? I'm like, when I was over there, did I ever tell you you couldn't get more than 3? No, but we just know we're not going to give it. And so the motto that I have and I gave to everybody there, I said, closed mouths don't get fed. I said, so if you don't speak up with what you need, no one's ever going to know the struggles that you currently have. The worst thing they can say is no, right? And I would rather for them to say no, so it's a policy decision at that point, than it is an operational decision. Because right now we're telling everybody everything's golden, everything's great, we're working just fine. But honestly, internally within the department, there's things that needed to get done. There's things that weren't getting done because of lack of, let's say, resources and funding availability. So that was the biggest thing that I learned when I came over from the budget office to the fleet side was sometimes the fleet managers or fleet directors may not speak up and voice exactly what it is that they need for multiple reasons, right? And that was just my experience when I moved over to, to equipment services.

Yeah, so you're giving me more fobs, but this is something we talk about a lot, right?

Yeah, finance PTSD.

Yeah, it could be a confidence thing too, not feeling— fearing that I can't speak the language in a way, you know, I can't prove my point in numbers, whatever it may be.

Well, and then you don't want any more scrutiny if you can't defend your decisions.

That's a great point.

So you get this whole concept of the, you know, What gets hammered is the nail that sticks out. And so like, no, I'm not going to do anything to upset the boat or invite any more eyes on this. We just keep asking for what we're always asking for and nobody will be upset.

Or yeah, that's a good point too. And then now you— so now you hear you ask for more replacement.

Yep.

And that solves a lot of problems, doesn't it?

It does. It does.

Tell the choir because I preach this all the time. Fleet replacement solves a lot of problems.

It does. You know, and what I was noticing was that, you know, internally within department, they were prioritizing who actually got replacements and who didn't. And it was apparent when you looked at the fleet like, oh, you know, these departments haven't gotten replacements in probably 5 or 6 years, you know, 10 years. But then this other department, as you can see, all brand new shiny vehicles in their fleet. And, and so then, you know, it gets to a point where your customers, right, your, your departments who are your customers, they feel shunned. They're not feeling like they're getting, receiving the services they should. And then it just kind of snowballs, right, to say now they start complaining to the leadership that we're not getting our vehicles replaced, or we're not receiving the right service. And then you have to re— go back on the backend and justify the reasons for that, potential justifications. And so, you know, like I said, I, when I told my team, when I got there, I said, I would much rather let everybody know what the true need is, and then let the policymakers make the decision on exactly what will be funded, because then we can go back to our customers and say, we said what we needed.

Right. You can, you can live with yourself, sort of a thing.

Exactly. Yes. And not to say I want to put blame on our elected officials or anybody else, but it, but that's just part of the reality of conducting business within a government agency.

Right. And you got more funding, your availability rates went up, your M&R needs went down, and things started looking better. So now you're showing you're a good steward of resources. And is it fair to say the next step is it's easier to get more resources?

Yes, it is. So one of the things we were able to do was actually create a true preventive maintenance program, meaning that we hired, we created two preventive maintenance technician positions that the department never had before, or rephrases, had in the past but hasn't had in quite some time. And we were able to actually create a scheduling system for preventative maintenance work.

So before that, people were reading stickers. Now it's all proactive. You're getting them in and you're just continuing to beget itself. Now the fleet's getting more and more and more efficient.

Exactly.

Yeah. It's, it's not surprising to hear, but it just so you guys know, I'm not making it up. This is real life.

Fucking, uh, it's interesting how the financial PTSD then led to fleet PTSD because the customers are mad at fleet because fleet's not asking for things, right? And I'll bet you is that squeaky wheel replacement theory, which is who was getting the replacements. It was either the squeaky wheels or the ones that had the most pull politically. Right. And so it's not, You were not looking at it objectively to say, hey, here's the really bad vehicles.

And you're hitting on 4 big pillars, maybe 3, right? Because there was no stakeholder satisfaction, so there was no resource efficiency. And now even the risk management wasn't, you know, so that's pretty interesting. How did, how did, you know, how did the morale change after you started to get the replacements in, build that PM program, etc., etc.? Things started to improve.

From our customers' perspective, they loved it. You know, obviously they were getting new vehicles, so who doesn't want a new vehicle? Internally, it was a little bit of a— it was, it was— I don't want to say it wasn't a struggle, but again, change is hard, right? So we had to relook at our— how we were performing our maintenance internally. How are we addressing issues from our customers internally? So I put a high level of expectation from our customer service side. Because I believe that retail— retail is not dead, bad retail is dead. And what I mean by that is people look for an experience, and if they give them a good experience in whatever service that you provide, then they will go away with having a positive, you know, positive feeling about the service that you provide. Look, we, we fix vehicles internally. We say, you know, we fix them, get them out, you know, get them back on the road quickly as possible, right? Safely, as quickly as possible. It's not glamorous, right? It's not, you know, we don't get the accolades or whatever, you know, that other agencies might get within our government agencies. But we play a vital role in providing our services that our government agencies provide. So what do we do? We have to provide a high level of customer service just to make sure that those vehicles are up and running. Our communication to our customers is as best as possible. Possible, you know, and as long as we communicate and we're able to get those vehicles out as quickly as possible, that makes a whole— makes all the difference. It makes all the difference, and no one will ever question how you run your operations. Internally, we might be struggling, right? We might trying to figure things out here and there, but externally, from a customer's perspective, they're getting everything that they need. But there was a little bit of a struggle in the beginning on some of those expectations, you know, government can, you know, kind of decide just to kind of, you know, go at a specific pace and don't change that pace. Let's keep it there. And for some things, that's good. But for some things, hey, let's turn it up a notch. Let's make sure that we're doing the best that we can with the resources that we have. So yeah, it did take a little bit of a push. But I think in general, the department took it really well. Again, it wasn't just me. It was my director and the direction that the whole department wanted to go into. We had a buy-in focus on it from our team. When you're in government, you have employees who've been around for a really, really, really long time, so sometimes change is difficult. But again, having them part of the process, making sure that they understand why we're doing it is key to try to get them to buy into it as well.

Talking about that. In government, in public sector. You said something at the beginning of your story, and I'm really intrigued by this because not a lot of people set out on this path, right? Like, you were determined. You're like, I don't know what I'm gonna do for public sector, but I'm gonna work for government.

Yeah, reading my mind.

I don't know many people who have that. So what drives that? That's got to be a passion. Like, there's something deep there. I want to hear more about that.

Yeah, me too.

Yes. So I am a history buff. I'm I love things about geopolitical things about the world and why things occurred and how they occurred, what was the impact of those things, mostly from a geopolitical standpoint. So I always loved and enjoyed, I'm going to call it politics. I enjoyed that. I enjoyed that aspect of public service from a political standpoint. My favorite president is Theodore Roosevelt, so I've read up on him a lot. So from that perspective, that service to the public was something that I've had inside of me. I just didn't know exactly how to go about it. I was encouraged to get my master's in public administration from a good family friend. I didn't know there was a master's in public administration. No idea. I didn't know what careers there was in the public sector and government. I already had that drive to serve the public. In the master's program, they hammer that in you. You're serving the public. This is what you got to do. They know this is how why we do it. And it just really spoke to me. There was a drive for me there. How I ended up doing it, again, I had no clue when I started off, but I felt like there was a desire for me to do that. So I was, I was more, I guess, driven by that mission to want to serve the public than anything else. In what capacity? I had no clue. Little did I know that I would land in fleet. That felt very home to me from what I knew growing up in my family, in my family business. So it just kind of melded both of those things together, right? My, my new career in the public sector and then my previous career in my life with the family business kind of just melding together. I think that's why I— my time with Maricopa County Equipment Services was such a very joyous time for me and very fulfilling time for me because I felt like I was, I was meant to be there. Does that make sense? Because just kind of one of those things where it's like, man, I didn't know where life was going to take me and it just came together right there.

Did you find that like when you were a kid, you know, that you had some kind of inkling that you would be in automotive something?

Yeah, I knew I liked cars and trucks and I will say that that was there, but I did not go up to my mom saying, "Mommy, when I grow up, I want to be a fleet manager one day." Well, because we say that. "I want to work in service," or, you know, like—

Right, but like we talk about that and how a lot of people accidentally fall into fleet.

Yes, yes.

But then, like, I know I talked to Steve. And he talks about when he was a kid, he used to line all the cars up and he would kind of organize them and sort them. And then he would do like literally a transit bus rollout.

Yeah.

Not realizing that's what he was doing. But, you know, he talks about how he was almost destined to do it.

Yes. I wasn't anything like that.

Well, but then I think back to like, you know, my adolescence, I'll say, you know, when I got out of high school, like I got into Jeeps and automotive and I, even though this is a family business, I had nothing to do with the family business.

Right.

You know, it wasn't until I kind of came back full circle and it married these two things I love, which was automotive and tech. It's like, oh wow, this is a really fun intersection.

Yeah.

So I was curious, like, how many people have that kind of story where it's true?

It's like we feel like we fell in, but maybe we didn't. Maybe it was destiny, right? It's a good point. Yeah, that's super cool.

Well, you were going to go into this next phase, which is, okay, we're leaving Maricopa and we're coming over.

I want to come back to Maricopa at the end, but absolutely. All right, let's go. Yeah, talk to us.

Yeah, so, um, you know, one of the things that I— being in— taking my plug getting my degree in Master's of Public Administration, I wanted to work at a municipality. So I love the county. It was a great place for me to grow and to learn, gave me all the opportunities that I, that, you know, that they gave me. But when my family asked me, say, where do you work? Maricopa County. Oh, so what do they do? And I'm like, well, you really don't want to receive services from Maricopa County. They're like, well, why not? I go, because about 75% of their budget is for public safety. Like, what do you mean? They got the courts, they got the detention facilities, they got the sheriff's office, they got the probationary offices. I go, so if you receive services directly from Maricopa County, you probably did something wrong. So again, being very mission-driven and wanting to give back to the community or, you know, serve in a capacity in the public sector, I always had the inkling of wanting to go to a municipality. Cities, for the most part, they're known for all the good things, right? You got your parks, right? You might get your water from them, you get your trash from them, you get, you know, you get a lot of tangibles, right, that you receive in your community from a city. And so I kind of wanted to be a part of that. So, so I knew that for me to move on from or move to a municipality, it would either be either in a fleet management role at a fleet department at another city, or possibly, um, a public works department where there's other different operations, but fleet might be a part of it as well. So I did my homework, my research, you know, what kind of jobs I could potentially, you know, apply for. Um, and yes, there were some, um, and I figured, can I be— was there what's equivalent to my job? And deputy director, assistant director, usually what, what was lining up. Did I think I was ready? I didn't know, I thought I was, but I wasn't sure. So yeah, I did apply for a few jobs and they didn't pan out, but they were great opportunities for me to interview, to kind of get to understand what it was that was needed to be successful in those jobs, which ultimately landed me in the role that I am in today as the Public Works Assistant Director. And I ended up having 3 divisions when I first started off there. It was Solid Waste or Sanitation, fleet services and street maintenance. Did I know anything about solid waste services? Absolutely not. Did I know anything about street maintenance? Absolutely not. And I was very upfront and honest in my interviews when those things came up. But I figured, I thought to myself, if I want to take this next step in my career, again, I was also looking at a fleet manager at another city, you know, I was looking at multiple opportunities or where I can take my career. Um, but I felt as though when I was brought into equipment services at the county, I didn't know anything about fleet, meaning how to really manage and operate. Did I know a little bit about strategic planning, some other operational things? Yeah, but I didn't know much about fleet itself. So I figured, well, if someone trusted me to come into this department for fleet without knowing much, I believe I was successful. Um, and then I can believe in myself to try something new that maybe I've never done before. Maybe someone might take a shot at me. And that's exactly what happened. And, uh, I'm forever grateful for my, my current director as well. Um, you know, I guess I did a decent job because within 4 months they, uh, handed over the transit division, uh, to me as, to me as well. And then just last year they handed over the pavement preservation to me as well. Again, I take a leap of faith. I believe that as a leader, right, in now my teams and what I do, it's not about me being the subject matter expert in everything. It's about hiring the right people in those roles that are subject matter experts, and I'm like the orchestrator. I'm here just kind of, what do you need? Teach me what, what, how this industry works, how this area works, solid waste, transit, pavement preservation, street maintenance. Help me understand how these areas work. What do you do? How do you do it and whatnot? And I will go to industry associations and go to their conferences and learn and network just like I did with, with, with Fleet. And I, I'm— what I learned was coming from the budget office when I worked at the county, the budget I can be the orchestrator and I can be that advocate for my team. And when you get into a leadership role as the one I'm in right now, it's not so much being about the subject matter expert because guess what? Your city manager and your council, they have no idea what it is that you do, how you do it, and whatnot. And that's okay. And there's nothing wrong with that. They are relying on you to be the individual that gives them the information, that gives them the justification for things until they entrust you with running the operations. And so, so I tell my teams, hey, I'm not the subject matter expert in your areas, you are. But whatever it is that you need, you better know that I will go up to bat for you. I'm the one that's going to be supporting you and improving things. Maybe let's think outside the box kind of thing. You know, you're, you know, you're how you do things, but let's hear from another perspective and see how we can possibly work together. So it's been, it's been a fantastic journey working in my current role. The city I'm in has been very supportive. Obviously, they've been trusting me with more responsibilities since I first joined. But yeah, it was a, it was almost like a leap of faith, if that makes sense. But I felt confident enough that I can do it.

Right. So let's pause here, because I think there's a couple of takeaways we might be able to go from our audience. So interestingly, what you said about, you know, the groups you have, which I think I I think it counted at least 2 fleet adjacent, you know, fleet plus 2. But, you know, I think that some of that could even apply at the fleet manager level, right? So it's like, hey, I'm fleet manager, you know, you're working on these groups, not in them. And the same way you're depending on their expertise, the fleet manager can take a very similar approach, right? Like, I'm going to trust my shop supervisor, I'm going to trust my techs, I'm going to depend on, on their expertise. So there's certainly an element there. Man, I got so many questions. I'm like, my brain's being flooded here, so feel free to jump in. But one question I want to ask is, like what, what did you learn in, in the fleet experience that helped you to be good? Like, can you— are there any dots you can connect or any hard ties? And then secondly, tied to that is kind of what would you say to someone? Because, you know, we talk about the career path for fleet folks, right? And as you mentioned yourself just now, there's only a few. One option is go be a fleet manager at a bigger fleet, right? And you just keep going bigger and bigger and bigger until you're at you know, Coca-Cola or Republic or some large construction firm. You kind of went a different route, which you don't see as often. You kind of went that next step. Yeah, you got out of Fleet, right? And now Fleet reports to you. So, so two questions in there. One, what did you learn from Fleet that helps you in this role? And number two, what would you say to folks who maybe are thinking about following a similar path that want to kind of— maybe they feel stuck. Hey, I've been a fleet manager for X amount of years and I want to do that next thing and they don't know where to go. What might be some advice that you, you would impart on them?

Yeah, so, so for the first question, what I— what did I learn, uh, and when I was in Fleet, Maricopa County, um, the first thing I learned right off the bat was I had to trust the team that I— that was put in front of me. So when I took the job, I didn't pick the individuals that were on my team. They were there already. And so one of the things that I learned quickly was that I had to establish that level of trust with them. I gave them trust from the beginning because that is how I was able to kind of break down that— they thought, who's this guy?

Right.

This outsider thinking they can do better than I can. I've been doing— been in fleet for 15 years, whatever. Who's this guy? Right. So I came in with that mentality, same thought that they had. I said, yeah, what do I know? Help me understand, what do I know? But the one thing I made clear was first, I trusted them first, first and foremost. And then secondly, I tried to also say, well, you know what? You are right. I don't have the years of experience that you do. But our boss, my boss who hired me, He believes in me. He believes that I can do this job. So I want to be successful. And the only way that I can be successful is if you're successful. And so let's figure out how we can make that work. And that really just helped smooth things out with everybody. Not to say there wasn't any rough paths in the beginning. It's just more of just set the tone from the very beginning and putting that trust in my team and then not jumping on them immediately when something didn't go right. It was more of, "Well, help me understand why didn't that work?" Or if I had an idea, this was always the thing. If I had an idea, the first thing they would say, "We did that 20 years ago and it didn't work." And I'd be like, "Okay, 20 years ago. What technology did we have 20 years ago that I can agree with you why it didn't work maybe 20 years ago. Can we test it this time?" So it was a lot of just letting them know that I was not there to challenge them in their understanding and in their, their experience and their knowledge. I wanted to learn from that, and then challenge them afterwards. So for about the first year, year and a half, I didn't put any new initiatives into the department.

None.

I wanted to understand and learn, figure things out. So that's something that I took from that job going into the role that I am into.

I'm going to pause you before you answer the second question, because I I just feel like I'm like, I feel this, this burn coming from you because that hits on a lot of the things that we talk about, right?

Yeah, well, it's, you know, we talk about 5 dysfunctions, building that trust, building the, you know, just that camaraderie. Yeah, hey, we're all in this together, creating alignment within the team.

Yep. Uh, one of their successes, right? You know, the lining, because it's like that our success is dependent on each other kind of thing.

Yeah, well, and I— you hit something that you said it the first time and then you said it again, but for these fleet managers that are thinking about, hey, am I ready to step into this role? And your manager, like you, you recognize something, which is that your manager believed in you. But then I would even challenge that for anybody stepping into this role is you have to believe in you.

Right?

Right. And so when you have this belief, because I say this about myself all the time, which is I may not be— I don't know who that leader looks like in 10 years. You know, I don't know who I need to become. But I do believe this. I believe I can become that person. And that confidence is really calming for any kind of team with a new leader coming in, for them to be able to like, okay, like this guy has an idea what he's talking about. I can trust him. I can believe in him. And you had a couple of things, which was, you know, approaching things with curiosity. There's nothing more disarming than approaching things with curiosity instead of accusations. You know, hey, something went wrong. Why did that go wrong?

Right.

What do you think happened this time that was different than the last time when it went right? And it really creates this like, oh, well, let me think about that from self-discovery. And it's emotional safety.

Right.

And that is the trust that you have to build as a new leader. So you just intuitively pick this out, which is incredible. Yeah.

But yeah. All right. So let's, let's get to question 2 here. What, you know, again, we see this a lot. We, you know, I'll be frank, I'll be transparent. You know, we're grateful for it. We see a lot of people applying for positions here out of the fleet industry because they feel like, hey, Hey, I've done about as much as I can do. I don't know what the next step is. You know, you've taken a path. Tell us a little bit about, I mean, you told us already a little bit about why and how. What's some advice that you might give, you know, to someone else who's maybe thinking about the same thing?

Yeah, first and foremost, I would say, do you feel fulfilled in the current role that you're in? I think that's something that, I, you know, the working— the work environment has changed tremendously over the last 10 years, and especially post-COVID, right? You know, folks think more about their families, their work-life balance, whatever the case may be. And others are still very, you know, oriented on their work and whatnot. So I would say in your current role, are you currently satisfied? Are you fulfilled in what it is that you're doing? Sometimes it takes that moment or time to reflect on yourself to see if it's the place where you want to be. And you may end up saying, you know what, this is the right place I want to be. So before you go thinking about the next job that you might want, ask yourself about your current job and the current role that you're in, whether or not that is fulfilling for you, if you're doing what it is that you want to do. And hopefully that brings some clarity, right? And it doesn't happen overnight, right? It could, it could take 5 months, you know, it could be over, you know, a couple of beers at home on your own, or if you're reading a book or whatever the case may be, right? You need some moments to reflect and not just upon yourself, but also your team and what you've built around you as a fleet manager. So that would be first and foremost, understand where you're at and if it's where you want to be. If you find yourself, that's not exactly where you want to be or you have a burning desire to do more. So don't leave a job just to leave a job because, you know, the, you know, the— what I say, the, the grass is not always greener on the other side, right? Sometimes the grass is the greenest it'll get right where you are. And that's okay. But know, think about what you want really next. You know, do you want to be challenged more? Do you want to learn something different? Do you want to be challenged in the same industry? Find yourself, you know, do your research on exactly what jobs are available out there, whether that's staying within the municipality or the government or going into the private sector, whichever, you know, route you want to go. But you have to self-reflect first. And then what is your drive in the end? What's driving you? You know, that for me, that's what I understood for myself is that my drive for public service is what's— it's what pushed me to kind of think outside of just fleet, you know. And maybe I had an advantage coming from the budget office because being in the budget office at Maricopa County, I oversaw about 9, maybe 9 different departments that I saw their budgets. So that was Maricopa County Department of Transportation, that was Flood Control District, that was Animal Care and Control. Who else did I have? I had Fleet, Maricopa County Equipment Services, and I had several others where I got to know their operations. So I knew that there was other paths, if that makes sense. So I kind of maybe—

you were exposed—

I was exposed, maybe I had a, you know, kind of a leg up on that. —right?— But the best way for you as a fleet manager, and I see it very similar as the budget side, get to know your customers, get to know their operations. Why do they do it? How do they do it? That will help you internally to be a better fleet manager and provide better service, but then also exposes you and opens your mind to possibly other opportunities within your own agency or, you know, within your own government agency, or if you want to apply somewhere else. That exposes you to that. So if you're not sure, look internally. Get to, hey, do a ride-along with someone. Do a ride-along with your transportation department. Do a ride-along with your sanitation or solid waste department. Understand the routings, understand why they do things the way that they do. And maybe you'll find yourself, oh, maybe I am interested in this. Or maybe this is a direction I wanna go. You don't have to look far. And trust me, if you look closely around you, you'll find other interests that you might have that might, you know, lead you into another path, not to say away from fleet, but maybe fleet as a component of what you do moving forward. Very similarly to myself, where fleet is one of the divisions that I oversee today.

One of the things, though, I'm imagining you have to, you have to be able to do well was sort of articulate how those skills were going to be transferable into the next role. Right now, you had another leg up, which is you had a degree, right, in that world. So that's always something, right? If you really want to do something, go get it, go get a degree or training certificate and something like that. But the thing that strikes me about, you know, the fleet world is, I mean, if you're a fleet manager or fleet professional and you're truly one of the better ones, you know, we talk about this a lot, the amount of expertise and disciplines that you have to be pretty darn good at.

Renaissance man. You really are a Renaissance man.

You know, like, you got to be good at a lot of stuff. You do. And, you know, and that makes you really in a very good position to actually be able to transfer skills to other types of work and other types of organizations, you know. And so if you can kind of work on how do you articulate that, and also perceive when you're reading what different work those folks do, how they might line up with the kind of work you're doing, I think that that's probably a really, a really key piece in understanding what might be good opportunities for you. If that's where you want to go, because you don't want to go sideways or backwards, right? You've, you've ascended to fleet manager. You want to keep going up. So, you know, that's something that kind of sticks out to me there a little bit.

I think the other thing is you're doing that work, you are naturally going to become a better fleet manager. Yeah, right. If you're doing the work to become a better fleet manager, you're naturally going to have these opportunities and exposures to these other departments.

And if I may add to other suggestions and tips for those who are looking. Again, coming from the outside, what I've learned is if you worked your way through within the organization, within fleet, we're kind of insular, right? We don't like to— leave me alone, I'm going to do my job kind of thing.

That's just a struggle in the fleet world.

That's a struggle, absolutely. So I always encourage folks, step out of your bubble. You need to put yourself out there. You have to. Whether, again, as I said earlier about being in some sort of fleet association of some kind, networking, talking to others. People don't know about you if you don't put yourself out there. We can apply for all these jobs everywhere, but sometimes it's also the connections that you make with others as well. You have to be able to step out of your own comfort zone, put yourself out there in whatever way you want to put yourself out there. There's no right or wrong way. You do it how you— what feels comfortable and best for you. But if you put yourself out there, you network with other individuals who are in the industry, or even an industry you might be interested in, or, you know, if you're interested in becoming a public works director, talk to those who are already doing the job, go talk to them, say, hey, what does it take? You know, because I promise, I promise everybody, especially those who are reporting to me today, who aspire to be either an assistant director or director of a of a department, I say, "Okay, come in my shoes. You're interested? Come see what I do every day. See if it's something that you're interested in, yes or no." And so, put yourself out there. That's kind of like the next tip that I would give those who are looking for the next move in their career. Just because you know how you're doing, you might be the best at what it is that you do, and that's fantastic, you still need to put yourself out there for others to get to know you.

[Speaker] Well, and I like what you, kind of what you said earlier, and to your point, right? It's gonna make you a better fleet manager too. Like, I love the ride-along idea. I love, one of the best successes I had earlier in my career was I went to an industry show of one of my fleet customers, right? I didn't know any better at the time. It was for our ambulance group, but it was, oh wow, there's this whole other world that you're living that now I'm exposed to that I just have a different and a deeper appreciation for. So to your point, like, it's gonna make you a better fleet manager, so why not do it? For one. And then number two, it kind of exposes you to another world. There's something you said though in your tips that I want to get to, because it's something you talk a lot about. You— and you kind of said it quickly, but you said, you know, when you're reflecting and you're figuring it out, you said, do you want to learn something? Like, if you gotta— you gotta be willing to learn and want— and not only willing to, but like this thing inside—

you have a desire.

It's got to be a desire. If, if you find yourself in that spot where you're like, I don't want to learn anything new, I like that I have all this down pat and I'm gold. Maybe you're not at that point in life where, you know.

I think I said that the other day, right? Which is, when does a tree stop growing? Oh yeah. When it's dead. When it's dead. Yeah, so keep learning, keep growing, you know, otherwise like, are you dead? What's going on here, guys? But some people are happy. They get to a point, their status quo complacency sets in. It's hard. But it's, if you've got that desire or you don't have it, you know, like you try to find it in life. Fight it. Because there is, there's always something more. There's always a, you know, I call it like version 2.0 or version 10.0 of who you are and what you're able to become, you know. And to think that you're not living up to your full potential, for me, that's like, oh, you know, what a waste of my life. Yes, yes.

So yeah, and someone's potential, everyone's potential is different. So different. It's so different. I go back to the, I'm sure we know, the Peter Principle, right? You reach your highest level of competence, right? So what that means basically is to reach the highest level of what you can do, right, in your career or the capabilities of yourself, right? Not to say it's anything bad, but never stop trying to find that ceiling. Never stop and— Push that ceiling up. That's what I'm saying. Maybe I'm living your phrase out. Don't be afraid to find that ceiling, but if you find the ceiling, can you continue to push that ceiling up, right? So, you always try to improve upon yourself, even if it's minor, even something small. Because if you just rest on your laurels, you don't make any changes, trust me, the world's gonna, gonna pass you by, pass you by. And then you're now the, you know, the old fogey in the corner who no one wants to work with.

They will not be kind about it. It'll pass you by.

We have a little joke in the consulting world, which is, you know, well, if they hired us, there's one of two reasons. You know, either you're really good and you need some help getting some things done and we're here to help you, or I'll let you fill in the rest and we'll see how good you are. Yeah, that's, that's, that's definitely an element. Um, so that's cool. So I, I want to actually go back to something totally random if I could. All right, so I got to know Maricopa County Fleet a little bit back in 2018, 2019. I did a big consulting study for them and Harold was there at the time. That's how we first met. Super cool fleet operation, right? They were very sure to remind me every single day how they're bigger than 4 states. And they really are.

And yet smaller than Coconino.

So we're just going to rip them a little bit. I mean, the people there were, you know, I got to shout them out. They were phenomenally— I mean, just phenomenal, good people, welcome and hardworking. Honest, dedicated, all the things you would want from a government employee, you know, like what they should be. Right. And it was super cool, right. And I went in there to talk about how you always learn. And I've always told you what my favorite part about my consulting life was, not what I taught others, but what I learned, right. And I remember going in there with kind of a— I don't know what the right word is— assumption, or, you know, just, you know, sure of myself in certain pieces.

I mean, you're a New Yorker coming out to Hiptown, Arizona. Come on.

They don't even need snowplows. That's right.

How hard can it be?

How hard can it be, right? So I get there and they have this, you know, what did you call it? Get ready shop? Get ready shop. Outfitting shop. So it's a cool shop, right? First off, it's one of the coolest shops. It's a massive shop. And he would always say, well, my light duty shop and my heavy duty shop. And I'd be like, every time I came, I'd be like, I still only count one shop, you know? So finally I had to look at the system a little to realize Even though it was one physical shop, they were, they were just breaking it down into like 3 different sets of bays, and it made sense, right? And all that jazz. But they were putting suspension systems, like off-road suspension systems, on like their, their law enforcement and their emergency services. And, and I see that at first and I'm like, what the hell is going on here?

What kind of grift is happening?

And I went in, like you said, with my New York and my consultant who at this point had done like quite a few studies, you know, all over the country. I had done the city of Maricopa, granted tiny, but I'm just saying, I didn't see a reason— like, these were legit off-road, you know. And like, you know, what were you guys using? Like, they were using like Strutmasters and you were using Bilsteins, and like, I think you had Fox on a couple of the lake ones. Like, you know, like the same things that are on your Ford Raptor, you know. And I'm like, this is insane, you know. And the folks in the sheriff's department just kept saying, you know, We really need you to see the terrain. We really need you to see the terrain. And finally they put me up in a chopper and I'm like, this is okay. Yeah, let's go to chopper. This is cool. And they see the chopper, they bring me all around the entire county and I'm looking at this terrain that these law enforcement folks have to go in. And I'm like, I actually like stumbled upon an actual rescue going on on one of these rides and it was like, oh crap. Yeah, you need, you need serious off-road gear. The coolest thing I've ever seen. I've yet— I'm sure there are others, I'm sure I've heard some stories about some Colorado and Utah fleets, but just some of the coolest equipment I've ever seen upfit on, on a fleet before.

Little did you know they would have swamp boats as well.

Yeah, that's right. You guys had swamp boats. Yes. And the amphibious stuff. Absolutely.

Which you think like Arizona, there's no water out here until you find water and then you need some stuff.

Yeah. Like, what do I do now? Absolutely. Cool stuff. Yeah, that was, that was fun.

I was on a helicopter ride with him, by the way. When they said, Harold, would you like to join? I'm like, absolutely. Let's go. I'm kind of, yes, of course. If you would say—

that's exactly how it played out. Then we stopped in the middle of nowhere, got fuel. I mean, it was just cool. It was a real—

it was a good experience. And as we were talking about, hey, coming out to Arizona, you're like, oh yeah, that's time I was out there with Maricopa County. So I guess I got to thank you a little bit for greasing the skids and getting this guy out here.

He's like showing me, he's like, you see those down there? Yeah, they're only $450,000.

I'm like, what?

Those are mansions.

At that time. This is 2018 numbers, not 2025 numbers.

Well, and then I actually did take you out, so you got to see it firsthand. Yes, yes.

You know, some of that terrain.

You're like, okay, okay, I get this too.

This is fun, yeah. We needed the foxtrots. We did, for sure. With the reservoirs. Yeah, cool stuff.

So as you think about, I want to come to you know, maybe where we were going next, but you're involved in FleetPros. You kind of joined the organization. Talk to me about some of the journey that you've had there. You know, and as somebody who's like personally involved with NAPA, I see APWA, we've got, oh gosh, who are some of the others?

NASA, if we're involved with. Thank you, NASA.

Just obviously where FleetPros kind of carves out its niche within all those agencies and how that's kind of helped you in your own career.

Absolutely. So just like many of us who are current volunteers for Fleet Pros, we were voluntold. So my boss, my director at the time, we went to one of the quarterly meetings here in Arizona. I think it was held in Prescott. It was held in Prescott. And so—

which, by the way, if you look at the spelling of Prescott for you, it's Prescott.

Just don't ever say it.

It sounds like biscuit. Prescott. Beat me up over here.

I'm just pronouncing it how it's spelled.

Prescott and Muggy on them. That's right.

Oh, and the worst is Mesa, but don't look at me.

Okay. Okay. Okay. So I was in Prescott and, and so my boss wanted me to take over as a treasurer for the— so Fleet Pros is a— we have multiple states and we also have the national board as well. So my boss wanted me to take over the state treasurer role in the— on the board. Because I came from budget, it's like, oh yeah, you know how to do that. And I'm like, Treasury and budgets are two completely different things. But fine, if you say so.

Well, for us non-finance people, nah, nah, nah, you weren't winning on that one.

And so what happened though was the president of the Fleet Pros National Board, who's also from Arizona and another mentor of mine, later became a mentor of mine, said, wait, you have budget and finance experience? I need you to be on the national board treasurer instead. And so my boss and this gentleman, Vince Lorfas, they both kind of like talked it over and I'm like, where do you want me to go? Am I on the national board or am I on the state, local, state board? And I ended up going to the national board. One of the things I learned right away working with FleetPros is that They are very— again, all volunteers, right? These are all fleet managers or in some capacity within fleet, maybe not all fleet managers, maybe a shop superintendent or whatever the case may be. But they are very passionate about providing good quality training opportunities for their members. And so when I first— this is the first time I ever joined a volunteer group like this before. So it was really new to me and I did not know what to expect. What I found was there was a lot of— again, this is why it resonated with me— there was a lot of passion. There's a lot of passion and desire within those that are volunteering on these various boards and committees to give something back to the membership. And what they wanted to give back was networking opportunities. They wanted growth within the, within the industry and folks that are in the industry. They wanted to provide training not only for the fleet manager, but also for the technicians as well, you know. One of the, you know, we've talked a little bit about the, the, the how folks land in the fleet management, right? Or are they— one of the goals is, is I think we all, we've, we're all experiencing right now is how do we, how do we grow from within, right? How do we make sure that the, the next technician becomes the next supervisor or foreman or superintendent and work their way through, through the organization? How can we help them? Because there's beyond the work that they do inside the shop, there's really not many other opportunities, you know? And so we wanted as Fleet Pros, this is why it really resonated with me even to this day, even though fleet is not my main area anymore, it's one of my five in my current job, I'm still on the Fleet Pros board because I really do believe in the passion and the desire that they want to help technicians move up in the industry to show that there is a, a career path and a ladder that they can actually work towards. If someone wants to be a mechanic or a technician for all the rest of their life, perfect. Let's make sure we give you the tools and everything that you need to be able to be successful. But hey, maybe there are 1 or 2 or 3 out there that looking to do something more and don't want to, quote unquote, pull wrenches for the rest of their lives, right? They want to do something more with their career. Let's bring them on board. How can we do that? How can we help them? And the only way to really do that is through either A, A, mentorship within the organization, or B, let's be part of this other association with FleetPros and help you grow through that so you can talk to other fleet managers or other shop supervisors and kind of get their, their take and how they grew and what, how they got into where they are today. So for FleetPros, you know, it's all about making sure, I think from a niche perspective, we really focus on bringing up those next fleet managers. That's our goal. We want to get a pipeline, show people that there is a career. We work here in Arizona. Every chapter does a little bit differently, and that's what we like. We like each chapter to be unique to what their needs are in their state because they're a little bit different. We don't plow snow as much here in Arizona, but in Colorado they definitely snow a lot of— plow a lot of snow out there. But their challenges are unique. They're different than what we got over here. So we want to make sure that each state tackles those things in the best way that they can. Here in Arizona, we've been working really closely with Westmec, which is, which is a trades— it's essentially a trades after-hours vocational school for high schoolers. And they do have technician programs in there as well. And we're working real closely with them to try to show the students, hey, there is a path in career. You don't have to go work at a Jiffy Lube immediately, or you don't have to go work— not to say there's anything wrong with it, but there is another career path if you so desire.

But you don't have to go to a dealership. You don't have to go to a dealership.

Because that's a totally different world too.

Yes, absolutely. Very cutthroat, flat rate, all that stuff. Exactly.

So that's why I have, even in my role today, I have had to tell my boss, I said, "Hey, I know that," and he's pushing me to try to be in other associations as well because I oversee different industries per se. Sure. And so he's pushed me to be in others, but I told him, "Hey, I would really like to stay on FleetPros if that's okay with you." And he goes, "Yeah, absolutely, stay on it." That's why I'm very grateful to him and why I continue to stay on there. It's helped me through my professional career, ability to negotiate, right? Because when you're on a board, you can't please everybody on the board, right? So you have to kind of give and take. And learning how to give and take is a skill that you don't necessarily get to practice in many places.

Not safely anyway.

Yes. And so on a board, again, of volunteers, you really don't have nothing to lose, right? Unless for your own personal self, potentially, right? Not to say you're going to go in like, I want it my way, but it's more an opportunity for you to practice those skills, understand how that individual on the board, what they like, what they don't like, what they want to move forward with, what they don't want to move forward with, and then how you can bring the whole group together. You know, I was as a treasurer, I was vice chair, I was chair. Vice Chair again. And so I've had those different roles within the board and even an at-large member too, that I've got to see the progression. And, and, and as you move into each one of those different volunteer roles in the board, and it just helped me just be a better negotiator, a better person that I can read people a little bit better and what they want, what they don't want, and how to move things forward. Something that I could not have had in my everyday job. So I think that's something that has really helped me in my career. That's an interesting thought.

And then also for at-large members, right? Like you mentioned, you're, you're, you're pulling people up. So a lot of this is education and exposure. Yes. And you know, for being honest, I mean, this is what I love about the industry conferences as a whole. It's like, you know, we have it again because we're sort of insular as an industry sometimes we tend to be, you know, we, for whatever reason, we draw personalities of that type. And in many cases, um, you know, I can't tell you on from the, again, sorry to keep doing this, but from the consulting side, you know, you get to see so many different fleets. And Tony talks about this, Tony Yankovich, right? Where, you know, you get to see how that problem got solved in all of these various, maybe very minor differences to very major differences in the set of circumstances. So what's great about, you know, going to a conference like FleetCon or just interacting maybe on, maybe you guys have an email, I'm sure you have like an email listserv and sharing your, hey, how did you solve that problem? We have this problem. Does anybody else have this problem? How did you solve it? We need this policy. Does someone have an existing policy like this? Right? Sharing that information, sharing that, you know, it just accelerates the pace at which you're able to make change for the good in your organization.

Yeah. And that's again, and whether that's FleetPros or any other, you know, industry association, it's, it's important to get that assistance and help from others. Don't be afraid, you know, in government, at least we're not in competition with each other. So I'm not, I'm not gonna sort of, well, maybe here in Arizona, I'm not sure about other states. So you start stealing technicians. Sort of. Yeah. Well, if you have your shop in order, not shop on paper, the Arizona State Retirement System is transferable. Exactly. Yeah. But no, we're, we're in, in general, we're not in competition with each other. So, you know, whatever, if I find something that has helped my organization, you know, I would like to share that with others. Hey, this is what I did, or this is the issue that I came up with. Or, you know, one of the great things about the Fleet Pros group, you know, we asked about, you know, shop rates. Hey, what's everyone's shop rates? Everybody responds. And because again, it's like, are we being competitive? Are we making sure, are we in line? Because when we try to increase our rates or, you know, to justify it, we can say, hey, by the way, here's all the other cities and government agencies across the state. That this is what they're charging, either we're well below or way above, you know, you don't know. But it gives you that level of confidence to reach out to a fellow peer and to have that type of conversation. And the willingness within everybody really to help each other out is a great feeling to have.

You guys recently launched a, like a Fleet Management 101. Tell me a little bit about that because I know there's, you know, obviously NAF has got CFM. APWA has the CPFP. Tony and I were just talking about this, how it's like, okay, like there's stuff up here, but then for people getting into fleet technicians that are trying to learn, tell me like, what is Fleet Management 101 and who's it for and why'd you guys build it?

Yeah, so as I mentioned, FleetPros is really about trying to bring up the next generation of fleet managers. We know there's gonna be an exodus of fleet managers just because of age and retirement. And so we— It's already started, right? Brain drain. Yeah, it already is happening. And so we're really focused on bringing in those next fleet managers. So the Fleet Management Series 101 that FleetPros had just recently launched is that attempt to, for our members, and again, this is the fleet managers putting it on them to say, hey, who would you want, who in your shop do you see what could potentially be your next fleet manager, right? Or who has that ability that you see in them? And again, as us as managers and directors and whatnot, that's part of our jobs, right? Succession planning. Succession planning. We got to make sure we find someone who's going to take over what we're doing, right? Because it's not about us, it's about the organization. And so we got to keep this going. So we created the Fleet Management Series 101 as an intro to fleet management. We have different topics that we discuss from HR to finance to fleet management softwares to technology. And those are just in very high-level introduction, no detail whatsoever, like getting into the weeds of things. It's about keeping it high level so that someone who may be interested in aspiring to be a fleet manager gets just kind of a glimpse as to what it is that they need to know and be prepared for. So this Fleet Management Series 101 is really geared towards those— maybe a technician may be interested in it. It's great if they want to move up to the next to be a superintendent or supervisor or even a lead or senior in their role. It's also for those who are currently a foreman or supervisor aspiring to be a manager. It's for those, for those individuals who really want a taste as to what it— what they will be dealing with when they get into a a manager role. I would say 80% of the time is managing people, managing expectations. The actual every day of actually feeling like you accomplished 30 tasks in one day are gone, right? Because you're juggling 100 tasks at the same time and you don't know if you completed one or the other. That's the reality of being a manager. And so this Fleet Series 101, Fleet Management Series 101, it dives into just that high level of the day-to-day tasks that you might be dealing with as a fleet manager. So they can have a better idea whether or not that's something they would like to do. And again, a lot of these things are not taught, right? These are things you just learn or experience. And so we want to give them that opportunity to see it, somewhat experience it. And again, these are led by us, by the fleet managers that are volunteers. And I think that carries a lot of weight because we're taking our time to teach these, these classes, these courses, and they hear it straight from the horse's mouth, right? They hear it straight from a fleet manager today, someone who was a fleet manager in the past or whatever. But yeah, it's one of those things where we want them to understand what their daily lives might be and whether or not they are interested in the end.

I think you said something about this, which was, you know, it's part of your job. Succession planning, things of that nature. I usually even go a step further, which is it's almost like a mandate as being a leader, right? Uh, John Maxwell talks about this, 5 Levels of Leadership. Like, your ultimate, you know, peak or pinnacle of leadership is your ability to replicate yourself. That's your legacy. And so for you, as you're thinking about, well, hey, you know, I, I like my job, but I don't want to train my replacement because then they're going to leave— but that's your legacy. You know, we talk all the time in like college football especially, that the coaching tree. Yeah, yeah. Every coaching tree, like, oh yeah, well they came from Major Applewhite, came from this coaching tree. Right. And somehow spun out of that. But I think that's the legacy. And like, that's truly, when you measure your impact on any industry, it's who did you leave behind and what impact did they have? Right. 'Cause that's where your impact actually grows exponentially. And so I think for any leader, that's gotta be your number one mandate is to figure out how do I replace myself? One thing to surround yourself with super smart people, but then of those people, who's going to rise to the top? And hopefully multiples. I actually just had this session with our new hires was, you know, in 3 to 5 years, my job, if I've done it well, is prepare you to take over the next level. And if we don't have that position, that you're ready for it somewhere else. Right. Right. And it's like there's nothing about loyalty or, hey, you're leaving the company behind. It's like you're ready for that next step. And right.

It's okay. But with a badge of honor, right? Like hopefully your shop produces 3 or 4 fleet managers in the area, right? And I love that approach.

I had the same conversation with my staff today. I tell them, where do you want to be in 5 years from now? 3 to 5 years, what are your goals and your aspirations? And I said, okay, well let's get you there. And then the response would be, well, there's probably no jobs, you know, within our organization. And I go, yeah, that's true. That doesn't mean you should stop from trying to get there. Whether that's here or somewhere else. I said, you know, it's about your success. And if we have this opportunity within our organization to give you that, your growth and your ability to grow and what you learn is a benefit to us today, is a benefit to you as well. And if we can continue that with an opening or a job here internally, fantastic. And if we can't, but you find an opportunity somewhere else where you can grow and continue, I'm like, that's, that's what we want.

At least we rode your coattails. Exactly. Exactly.

And you know, the funny part is, because I I do relate to the fleet manager out there who's worried about training people up and having them leave. It's so hard to fill positions. Um, you feel like you did all this work and then the next thing you know, your life is worse again, right? Because now you gotta— you feel like you gotta take all that on again. And I, I mean, I lived this, I experienced this, you know. And yet, you know, thank God, reading some books, some good mentorship, you say, no, no, we're going to take the graduation approach. And we're going to see it the way you describe, right? No, no, you're ready for the next thing. I'm sorry, I can't give it to you here. Go get it. I'll write your letter. And you know what the funny part about that is? It actually pays itself in multiple— like, it's an exponential improvement for you. And what I mean by that is those people then go out into the world and they tell the world what a great program you have. And you know what happens? People come flocking to you. The best of the best come to you. And that's what I found. I would lose one but I'd gain 5, you know, great young talents that were ready to— begging to join the organization because they heard from this person who they respected and they trust. And, and, you know, do you have to take a little bit of a leap of faith with that? Yeah, you do. But if you talk to enough successful leaders, you'll find that they say this over and over again: take the darn leap of faith. You know, it's— it does work that way for whatever reason. I don't know if I can explain exactly why, but it does work that way, you know. You know, it comes back to you. So it's an interesting thought. Yeah.

Well, we're kind of at time. This has been an awesome conversation. We're going to have to have you back out. Yeah, I really— You're too close for us not to have you back out. Absolutely. But yeah, on behalf of the Fleet Success Show, thanks for coming and spending some time with us this afternoon, especially in studio.

We appreciate that.

No, thank you for the invite. I really appreciate this.

Go connect with Harold on LinkedIn. Come check out Fleet Pros.

Oh, when is FleetCon this year? Real quick.

FleetCon will be September of this year down at in Westgate at the Renaissance Hotel. Um, so here in Arizona, here in Arizona, yep, Glendale, Arizona. So in September of this year, cool.

You want to say third week of September if I remember right?

I think so, yeah, it's a week of September.

Yep. Yeah, I think that week I've got FleetCon, NASIF, and West— or Clean Coast Cities wants to do something, so I'm gonna like try to go from Glendale to Park City to Sacramento. It's a— well, then connects the week. I was just gonna say, for some reason we can't all just schedule our stuff.

Why do we do this to ourselves?

We hate ourselves. It's popular weeks.

It is. It's great weather.

So because nobody wants to be here in August. That's very true. That's why we do it. Yeah. Definitely check out, you know, FleetCon in Glendale is going to be awesome. That's always a good show. And yeah, follow, follow Harold on LinkedIn and get to know him.

Yeah. And they're very good down there. You know, Gus and team. Like, if you want to see a great fleet operation run, go check them out. They really know what they're doing. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, thanks so much for being here, man.

No, thank you for the invite. This is great. Uh, thank you for the conversation. Succession planning and leadership is one of my favorite topics to talk about, so thank you.

Appreciate it. Yeah, good having you.

Well, with that, that's going to do it for this week's episode. As always, if you have questions, comments, we'd love to hear them. Email podcast@rtfleet.com. And until next time. Take care, everybody. We hope you enjoyed the show. If you'd like to help support the podcast, please share it with others, post about it on LinkedIn, or leave a review. Want to learn more about our fleet management software Fleet 360? Check us out at rtafleet.com. If you want to learn more about having your fleet evaluated by our consulting team, go to fleetconsulting.com.