Episode 014: Aaron Dunn and Michael Clements From The Trucking for Millennials Podcast

Welcome to the Fleet Success Show, a podcast dedicated to talking about the fundamentals, standards, and best practices that empower today's fleets to achieve fleet success. Let's get into the show.

All right.

Welcome to the Fleet Success Show. I'm Jeff Jenkins. I'm going to be your host today. And with me, I've got our producer, James Ricks.

How's it going?

He will be joining me, and today we've also got some special guests with us on our podcast. So we've got some gentlemen from PDQ America. We've got Michael Clements, who's president of PDQ America. We've also got Aaron Dunn, who is their director of sales and marketing. Welcome, gentlemen.

Howdy, what's going on? Thanks for having us.

Or A-Dizzle, right? That's the nickname you get on your podcast. We should have said—

we should have— we should have gone to A-Dizzle. And was it M-Sizzle, right? Was that what you're talking about?

Oh goodness, that was it.

It was it.

Yes, we missed the boat there. Well guys, it's great to have you on. I mean, honestly, this is like our first time on our podcast where we've got guests. Typically things have just been with us, um, in our company. So we're happy to have you on. And I'd like to start just to, you know, kind of do some introductions. Um, Mike, if you want to start first, just kind of, you know, a little bit about yourself and maybe how you got into trucking. And then Aaron, if you could just follow him, that'd be great.

All right, cool. Yeah, um, my name is Michael Clementson, uh, president of PDQ America here in White Oak, Texas. Uh, I got started off in the industry in 2013. February 14th, 2013 is when our company was founded. I also got engaged that day. Um, it was a— yeah, it was a life-changing day, but pretty exciting stuff. Um, I, I really— I got into the industry though, um just, just cutting to the chase, I've been around manufacturing since I was a kid. We had a family business, uh, and I have been in that business, uh, really since I was, I guess, about 15, 16 years old. And I had been working there for about 3 years after college, and I really thought to myself, like, I, you know, I was seeing tons of trucks going in and out of there, and I just, I felt like I've got a, uh, more of an entrepreneurial mind than anything else. And so I was like, you know, how do we get in on that? How How, how can those trucks out there also be trucks that I have something to do with? And at that point in time, uh, you know, just went through some, you know, kind of a checklist of the decisions and things that would need to happen to make that work. And, uh, you know, ultimately decided, yeah, I don't think it's a bad idea after looking at freight invoices from some of our, uh, vendors and looking at some of the routes that we ran. And so I really dove off into it with an F-450 and a 30, it was a 35-foot flat, no, yeah, no, it was a 32-foot flatbed with a dovetail on it. So it was an F-450 with a 32-foot dovetail. First driver was named Lester. And we started trucking. It was only a few months later we got into the big trucks and, you know, started off with Freightliner Columbia and then upgraded to a Freightliner Cascadia BR1001. 2001 and 2002 and started running big truckloads. There was a lot of blown axles, a lot of mistakes made, a lot of tickets early on, a lot of fire extinguishers not mounted, paper logs messed up. If, if, if you could do it wrong, we, we were your— we were the per— we were the team, we were the company that was figuring out how to do it not the right way. And our safety and everything, it was all over the place. But at the end of the day, we had a trucking company. And whenever you're just trying to get into business early on, that, that was kind of the name of the game, and then you kind of start figuring it out from there. So that's really how my story in the trucking business got started, is, is, was from a kind of a, a sister industry, or one that relies on transportation and vice versa. That's how I got my start, was just looking at trucks coming in and out and saying, hey, how do we do that?

Yeah. So before you go, before you go, Aaron, so I'm going to ask a couple questions here. So Did you— how many people did you have when you started the company? Was it just you, or did you have somebody else there with you?

Yeah, so early on I had myself, and then there was another member of the manufacturing business that had, uh, helped me start the business. And, and we got started rocking and rolling together, uh, and it was really through word of mouth of how, like, we hired drivers and that people even knew we were in business. Uh, I really didn't have the, the ability at that point in time to go market our company or to try to go sell us to other, uh, oil and gas companies. Because really, we just— I mean, our one hotshot was busy all the time, uh, through our manufacturing business.

Okay, so you didn't really have anybody with trucking experience then when you started this company?

No, we, we had zero trucking experience.

So that would obviously be the reason why you did everything wrong that you possibly could.

That's right, that's right.

Well, that's a— so trucking is a very hard industry to get into to begin with. Um, a lot of rules, a lot of regulations that you've got to follow. Um, and I mean, it's expensive. You got to think about the cost of the equipment and a lot of other things that go into it. A lot of people that go into trucking for themselves and start businesses, they fail rather quickly just because of how much goes into it. So the fact that, you know, you started in 2013 and you're here in 2021, it's a testament, I think, to lessons learned and then applying what you learned into your business. So that's awesome.

I like to say a, uh, a good carrier or a good trucking company is always a work in progress. Your work is never done.

I would agree with that. Yes, very good point.

Yeah, that's interesting. I may come back and ask what you're working on, you know, right now, right? Or what you've seen that other people are working on right now. That's interesting.

Okay, Aaron, what about you? Tell us how you got into it, a little about yourself.

Uh, man, my story is pretty simple. I got in because of Michael. So, you know, uh, I've been, I've been in, uh, digital media sales marketing, uh, for the last 6 or 7 years or so. And so I, I cut my teeth in the car business and then, you know, really found a love for, uh, for, for marketing. I didn't even know really what marketing was when I got into it, and then I realized that, oh, I can I'm a creative kind of person. And so I realized that, oh, I can use my creativity to make money instead of using my creativity to not make money and, you know, be a starving artist or what have you. So I learned sales skills. And then when I figured out what marketing was around that time, personal branding was like the new term in digital. And so I started to learn and apply everything that I could and started developing the skill set in sales and marketing. And so fast forward you know, 5, 6 years in different industries and different places where I found myself. I'm always looking to, you know, grow my understanding of business, grow my, my skill set, and connect with people who I have common values with. And one day I had a friend of mine who's also in marketing tag me in a LinkedIn post about starting a podcast, a There was an individual named Michael Clements Jr. who wanted to start multiple podcasts, and anybody that is doing marketing in a modern way or is forward-thinking, an innovative person that's trying to, you know, improve their business through these innovations, modern communication, that fires me up. And even if I'm not working for them, I want to be connected to them. I want to, I want to just, you know, learn from them, watch them through, you know, just kind of learn through osmosis in a way. But it just turned out to be a great opportunity for me. You know, trucking, I didn't know anything about it other than, you know, hey, those are those big things that are on the road that I try to avoid. And, you know, Michael, Michael and I sat and talked and he was like, I've got this concept for Trucking for Millennials. That's the podcast name. And yeah, I want to do it, and I just, you know, don't, don't exactly know all the ins and outs. He had podcasting experience prior to, um, so he, he did have a fundamental understanding. So I knew I was going into a great organization that had, you know, shared values with me of, hey, let's do something innovative, something new, something that, um, you know, the industry doesn't really have a lot of. And so I, I just I, I jumped in. So it was, uh, and it's been, it's been great. So I started in August of— no, July of 2019. So just got over 2 years in the industry, and we've got over 100 episodes done. And now I've learned so much about trucking and logistics and dispatching loads and calling customers and, um, you know, just about anything and everything aside from driving a truck. Um, you know, I've become so familiar with and It's been a, it's been a real blessing because I've also, uh, connected with a lot of great people like yourself.

Good.

Well, that's good. So why, why did you, why did you guys decide to start a podcast, Trucking for Millennials? I mean, what was the idea there? What's the intended purpose of it in general?

So I had another, another podcast called Manufacturing Leadership that, uh, just through So, so like, I like to look back at like my first decade in business as just a lot of learning and trying to figure out my way. I mean, every day, every morning I wake up, I'm still doing those things, but I really feel like I was drinking through a fire hose a lot of times in, in my first 10 years. And I made a lot of mistakes. I've hired friends, I've lost friends, I've had business partners, I've had business partnerships go south. I've hired the right people, I've hired the wrong people. I've put the right people behind the, behind the seat of a, or behind the wheel of a truck. I've put the wrong people. So I just made a lot of— I've made a ton of decisions in the last 10 years, 11 years. And through that decision-making, I found that my, my percentage of always hitting the right decision, uh, it wasn't in my mind high enough. It wasn't great enough. And I was thinking, like, what is the best way to share these experiences and the experiences of others with others that are going through similar situations that I am, or they're leaning into going into some of these situations? How can I make their life maybe a little bit easier? And so ultimately, my motivation for both the podcast Manufacturing Leadership and Trucking for Millennials was really just, hey, how can I talk about my mistakes? How can I interview others about the mistakes and what they've done well in their career. And how can we get this information into the hands of people that can be using it on a daily basis?

That's awesome, uh, man. I see so many similarities, like, you know, what our thoughts were with the podcast as well. We just learned a lot from being in business and a lot of business lessons. And, uh, you know, the same thing, like, how can we learn more? How can we share this message and help others? So Definitely see that a lot. And I think it's interesting that that was your idea, Michael. And, you know, typically that's like a marketing-led, right, you know, initiative. But that's very forward-thinking of you. I'm sure I don't need to tell you that it's rare that someone who owns a company like yours is even thinking about, "Hey, I should do a podcast and I should expand my thought leadership and, you know, share these lessons," things like that. It's pretty rare, at least from what we've seen. So that's awesome.

Yeah, I like to say like the reason I wanted to call it Trucking for Millennials though is because at the, at the time, I mean, this was a few years ago, so millennials weren't as respected, I guess, as they are now. You know, there was a, there was a lot of funny stuff going on with younger kids and, uh, you know, living in your parents' basement or whatever it was. And Tide Pods, I just wanted it to be that, hey, listen, millennials, we are here, we're in the middle of all the industries and all the work and all the all the stuff going on, we're right here in the middle of it, and we're making decisions, we're making moves in, in the trucking industry and others. And, uh, really, at the end of the day, if I say something dumb on this show, well, I'm a millennial, that's my out. So, um, for Millennials, we ended up just being a, a name that I felt like fit the process and fit who we were trying to, uh, I guess who I wanted to listen to the show.

Nice. So you, you've, you've been in business for a while. You guys have done 100 episodes of your podcast Trucking for Millennials. So what's, what's the most valuable thing you think you've learned, like just one specific thing going through this process of having people on and talking about just tips and tools for millennials in that industry?

I think, I think for me, the thing that I've learned the most, and I've learned a bunch, and that's, it's been a an excellent resource for me as somebody who's new to the industry because, you know, from essentially day one, I've been able to connect with other people who've been in the industry longer than me. It might have been, you know, a year or 6 months, or it might have been 10 years, or, or what have you. But I've been able to connect with so many different people throughout the industry that I get to learn from on the fly. And some of these people are, I mean, veteran experts. I mean, like yourself, Jeff. I mean, you've got, you know, you're a former CEO. I mean, you've got a, a huge successful career. And so the, the opportunity to be able to just sit down with someone for an hour and really just absorb that information has been invaluable and something that you can't really get, uh, in, in too many places. And so it's a, it's an honor to be a, you know, on this side of the microphone instead of just as a listener, because then I get to formulate actual relationships with folks. And so reaching out to them when I have another question, um, uh, in, in the future, or just need a, you know, a, a second opinion or thing. So I think the, the connection, that the networking has been, you know, the number one, and, and being able to, to educate myself on the industry and get a broader understanding of the industry through the conversations that we have. And then I would say, you know, you asked for one, but number two, I would say that the, the ability to like connect with individuals and have a, have a community of folks that you can reach out to for, for anything. I mean, I guess I'm kind of belaboring the point, but yeah, networking has been really the strongest asset, I would say. And, um, yeah, okay.

Well, listen, there, there— so I've always thought— I'm a competitive person at heart myself. So when I started in this industry, I started at Knight. You know, I would look at other trucking companies and I would see them more as competition and the enemy than I would as people that you can learn and you can grow from. Well, as I left Knight and went to different companies, you realize like how similar trucking companies are and the people that work for them. And you can learn so much from so many different people. It doesn't matter if you're at a big company, you're at a small company, you're a single driver out on the road who's an owner-operator and has your own truck. Just the, the wealth of knowledge that's out there across the industry is just amazing. And it's not even just applicable to trucking, it's applicable across all different facets of life. So I mean, I would agree with you. I actually think the fact that you've got this podcast and you've had 100 episodes in with different trucking people in there that's probably been a huge boon not only for you but also the other people that are listening to it. So I mean, that's absolutely fantastic that, you know, you're able to take all that away.

Yeah, and I'm glad you said that too because that second point that I actually kind of forgot was the fact that like it was the relatability factor. Like I started to understand like the challenges that I was having in my position or the business was having was like not an uncommon thing. It wasn't just that we were like, you know, struggling, sucking wind or what have you. It's just like, oh, this is just like an industry situation, you know, that, that happens that to everybody, you know. And so it— those type of things too, of just like, oh, okay, so I got an outside view of what other people are dealing with. So then it's like, oh, okay, I understand, you know, just that much more about what we can do to improve and the steps to take. Because, okay, if, if they feel this way about this situation, then that can adjust how, uh, we communicate to other people about, you know, whatever's you know, coming down the pike on a, on a given day when you're trying to move a load, right?

Awesome. What about you, Michael?

Yeah, I think some of my biggest takeaways are, uh, just some of the leadership people that we've been able to speak with. Uh, we've had some tremendous leaders on the show sharing their experiences, whether, uh, you know, they're in the industry or whether they're in software, whether they're in a completely separate industry. And one thing I found through the show is that, um, I don't know if you went back and counted our shows, if would be around 10%, but I would say about 10 to 20% of just normal trucking is also knowing stuff just about business, or just knowing about leadership, or just knowing, uh, how to talk to people, how to do certain things. And so one thing that I've been proud of, uh, Aaron and myself on, on our show is that we've been able to mix it up with different types of guests. It's not just one type of person. We have brokers, we have truck drivers, we have fleet, uh, fleet managers, we have CEOs, we have people from outside the industry that don't even have anything to do with trucking. And if you ask them a trucking question, they couldn't answer it, but they're still bringing value to our industry. And so I like being able to connect those dots of other industries and say, hey, what can I learn from you over there? And what can our listeners learn from you that's going to make my business and their business better? And I can't tell you how many times Aaron and I have walked out of a podcast and we're like, oh man, we got to go get on that like right now. So the, the experience that we've been able to get from the podcast has been tremendous. The networking, as Aaron mentioned, has been wonderful. But I really think also being able to step out of just the trucking industry and bring others in to shed light on how you deal with these— some of these similar situations in other places— I think has also been, uh, been a factor for a reason why we enjoy the show and why we have the followers and the listeners that we do.

Yeah, that's right. It's, it's a good point, um, when you talk about outside industry. So if you were to— if you weren't in trucking and you looked at it on the inside, right, at one point in time truck drivers were— there were the renegades, right? They were out on the road and they were driving and people had like a lot of high respect. And then at some point in time that kind of went downhill a little bit to where there wasn't as much respect for people that hauled goods. And now through this latest year and a half through the pandemic, once again truck drivers are elevated. Right? So people don't really understand the industry and understand what people who either drive a truck or dispatching, customer service, whatever the case may be, they don't understand what they go through. So I think it's great that you're actually bringing those people together to help non-trucking people also understand really the environment and the industry in total.

Yeah, I would hope so. I mean, the, uh, you know, you say that it— the, the profile, the public perception of a driver is elevated. I think it's elevated to some degree, but you I think a lot of— and no discredit to them, of course— but like frontline workers, you know, that we've— we heard so much in 2020 of nurses, doctors, you know, those type of folks. They definitely got the elevation. And I think I saw one commercial that had to do with, you know, trucking logistics. I just hope that the— you know, we've talked to Wayne Cragg on, you know, multiple occasions or other truck drivers. They're like, yeah, you know, there's days, you know, Truck Driver Appreciation Week. You know, it's great that you give us a thumbs up and a good ol' boy, but, um, you know, there's 52 weeks in the year. Could you, you know, what more could you do? So like, I hope that, you know, the—

there may still be some months available.

Yeah, right. Yeah, exactly. So like, I'm hoping that, you know, that awareness continues, especially as like infrastructure things and, you know, uh, politics gets in, into the mix of what the day-to-day life of truck drivers— I hope that it continues to elevate the public perception of what drivers do every day.

Yeah, you know, and I, and I would hope so too, because really, those trucks stop moving, we don't have anything. Everything's transported by a truck, and people don't realize that unless you actually understand logistics and really how supply chain works.

So absolutely.

Well, good. Well, I want to, I want to go back a year into time because we went and we looked up one of your old podcasts And there's about a year ago, Michael, you and, you and Aaron were talking about culture and you were basically talking about how at that time there were trucking companies that were going out of business and they were going out of business. And usually the things that they cite are our insurance, the regulations, we don't have enough drivers, the rates are too low, um, safety issues where there's accidents. So there's a lot of different reasons, but you pointed out something I thought was very interesting. You talked about the culture of the trucking industry and how that probably led to these closures because you don't hear about it. Can you really expand a little bit on that, when you meet— what you mean when you say, you know, the culture is also to the detriment?

Yeah, it's, uh, I mean, just since 2013, the industry has changed so much. I feel like maybe I kind of got in on the, the last few years of what the industry used to be. With ELDs coming into play, with all the advancements in technology, with constantly changing regulations we've had, we're on our third, our third administration now in the White House since I got in. There's been a lot change. And one thing, though, that I've seen constant, whether it was in our manufacturing company or in my trucking business or in others, is culture is always a player. And whether you're looking at it from a standpoint of the technology or regulation or whatever it is, what is your approach whenever these things are changing? Are you embracing that or are you running from it? And in our business, I like to hope that we are embracing it. And listen, I understand how annoying it is to input something into software. I know how annoying it is to take that extra step. I know how annoying it is for a driver. Well, I, I don't personally know how annoying it is, but I know that from what I've heard from drivers, a lot of them don't like some of the things they have to do with the technology they use, and then it ends up not working. Um, but I think that some of this stuff, it almost has to stop at my door. If I walk out of my office and I start complaining about ELDs and why this is running the industry And I, and I do that in front of our drivers. I do that in front of dispatchers. I do that in front of everybody. What tone am I setting for our business? Am I making it okay to complain and whine, or am I building a culture that says we've got to embrace this and make the most of it? Listen, we all have things that we don't like to do. We all have stuff that we don't agree with, but ultimately it's our government and, and those are in the, in the different organizations around us that set those rules and set those parameters in which we have to play. And even though these things may get on my nerves, I can't go do that to my team. I can't put them in the seat and say, this is a problem for all of us. Now, if the company's losing money or if we're not delivering on time or we're not meeting the quotas, the KPIs that we've set, then we have a different situation. But if this is just something that I'm complaining about, oh well, you know, this thing, it never tracks the mileage correctly. You know, this thing's a piece of junk. You know, if I'm just complaining like that in front of drivers, What type of tone am I setting? And I, I just, I think that companies got to look inward more and say, why are we having these issues? Like, okay, we all understand not every ELD provider is great. We know there's going to be challenges. We know that there's going to be things that happen with your ELD that may cause you to get a ticket that you had no chance in hell of not getting because, because it was the software, it was the technology that messed up. But the company still has to promote that technology. It, it still has to be keeping a positive culture with it. And, and for me, I've just seen it happen in business. I've seen— I've been around good cultures and I've been around bad culture. And to me, it plays out in your daily decision-making so much. Culture is— it's not at the end of the year, what's the bonuses, what was the revenue we generated, what was our profit margin. That is not culture. Culture is what What decision did we make on July 14th? What decision did we make July 15th? And how can I impact— if we made something, if we made the wrong decision on the 14th, what can I be doing to impact a better decision being made on the 21st, a week later? Instead of getting in there and saying so-and-so's wrong or whatnot, it's all about coaching, it's all about building up, it's all about promoting a culture that it's okay to make mistakes, that there's going to be things that are going to confuse all of us, but you got to stay positive through it. And I've seen that that That is really a big reason why, why PDQ is still in the ballgame and why we're still able to, uh, be a transportation provider in our area and across the country through our brokerages, because we promote that positive culture. There's plenty of times, man, that I could have put my head down and said this isn't working, whether it was through my failed partnership in the business, whether it was through failing of hiring people, whether it was putting the wrong people in key positions and then making mistakes. There's plenty of times that I could have said, boy, This thing is just roasted. But at the end of the day, I try to stay positive and I try to promote a culture that says, hey, if you're going to be a PDQ, I want you to learn something here. I want you to feel like you're okay to make mistakes, but I want you to embrace technology, embrace efficiency, and try to every single day get a little bit better. And I believe that— I really believe in my heart that whenever you're promoting those things and you have a strong mission and values that you're, that you're living by in your company, you're going to make better decisions on a daily basis, which is going to lead to a better, a better end of the year.

Yeah, that's awesome. I want to take a second and make sure our listeners kind of, you know, let that settle. First of all, I'm not sure, Aaron and Michael, how much, you know, you know about what we're doing as far as the category that we're creating with Fleet Success, right? This global picture of what success looks like in fleet, not just in trucking, but government and city municipal and, you know, food and bev, like just in fleet in general. What fleet success looks like. And, you know, as our listeners will know, as we've talked about in our previous episodes, culture is a huge part of what fleet success is, to the point that we made it one of the four pillars of, you know, fleet success. And there's so many good things that you just said there. One thing that our CEO here at RTA always says is that culture exists— what, you know, good or bad, it exists just by default. But it's the intentional culture. It led from the leader, like you said, like that decision that you made to look at how you could react to it and react accordingly. You use the word positive culture a whole bunch of times. I think that's exactly, you know, what it is. It's like intentionally setting your culture to match, you know, what you want to achieve. You even talked about, you know, if metrics aren't being met, or if our goals aren't being met, or deliverables or things like that, that's how you protect you know, the boundaries of your culture and where you step in and make changes. So I just wanted to hit that home that, I mean, it feels so good to hear it from someone other than us, you know, saying how important culture is in a fleet. Like, you wouldn't think leadership and one-on-ones and, you know, management, you know, techniques and way to, you know, talk to people would matter in a fleet. But as you just told us, you think that it's so important that it can actually be what puts a company out of business. you know, in the long run. So I guess I'm saying thank you for driving that message home to our leaders from someone other than us.

It's good to hear. I appreciate that. And, uh, just, just one quick story I've got that, that just shows the power of culture was, um, about a year and a half in, our safety scores were absolutely terrible. And, uh, there was something that I kind of internally would do, and I would get frustrated. I just felt like new carriers and new entrants, the cards are stacked you. There's not really anybody there to guide you along or tell you how you should be running your business from a safety and compliance standpoint. It's more or less just figure it out. And now you have, after 6 months, you do have your new entrant, uh, you know, your new entrant, uh, I don't know what it was, it's like a review or something, but we had to basically show all of our logs and everything we've been doing. Well, we went through that motion and I don't know, it was probably about a year later Um, we had already received a few. We kept getting these letters from the FMCSA saying that our safety scores were basically terrible and that we were getting, uh, anytime we'd get a citation, we would get another letter that was saying like, you could possibly lose your authority to be a carrier. Well, I'll tell you, man, whenever you've got a mountain of debt and you've got about 15 people in this, in this new business you start saying, man, I really— we, we really probably don't need to lose that authority thing. That's probably pretty important to our business. So you start saying, okay, well, I know that these 9 drivers here know that I don't know anything about trucking. I already know that. They all know they can pull one over on me when it comes to equipment or whatever it is. They, they know that. Um, but there's a funny thing is that I still have eyes. I can see when we're doing pre-trips and post-trips inspections. I know that if you checked in at 7:07 and your truck was moving at 7:09, you probably didn't do an inspection. And so, there was almost a culture in our business of— it wasn't that we were against safety or we weren't wanting to practice safety. There was just no culture aimed towards it. It didn't mean anything to us. Safety meant nothing to us. It only meant something to me because someone wrote a letter. And so I think like starting out, that was like one of those key things that I wanted like our listeners even in our show to like be able to— you gotta, you gotta attack safety head-on when it comes to culture. And our safety scores were awful. I think we were around 78 or 79, uh, out-of-service percent for our, uh, for, for drivers, I want to say, which is extremely high. I think our just overall out-of-service percentage was close to 80% whenever we got pulled over.

Dang.

And whenever you looked at all the trucking companies in our area, which we have a lot of those good old boy trucking companies here in East Texas— I mean, we do a lot of oil and gas hauling, and there is a ton of that that goes on around here. There's a lot of people that they don't worry about hours. They're not worried, you know, hey, well, just get that truck back on the road, you know. Hey man, we need you, we need you. I know you just worked a 12-hour shift, but we need you to run this load down to Houston. I mean, there's a lot of that that goes on, and I would— I will say, I mean, from the start, I, I felt like there were rules in place that said you can't do that. And so that was, that was really never a challenge for me when it came to that. But it was some of the dumb stuff, like I mentioned earlier in the show, like not mounting your, your fire extinguisher. Well, whenever you get 4 trucks all get pulled over in a matter of a month and they get that, well, maybe we have an issue with mounting fire extinguishers. But it was just some stuff, some stuff was silly. I mean, it was lights or whatnot. I felt like this stuff could be prevented. So, um, I, I brought everybody in and I put up— it was maybe like 6 or 7 trucking companies— I put up their safety scores and then I showed where we were at. And we were like towards the bottom. Out of like 8, we were like 7. And I said, guys, what is, what is our competitive advantage in this area? And everybody just kind of looked at me. I said, well, do y'all think it's the amount of trucks? And everybody knew we had none. And it was Like, no, I mean, there's companies with 50, 100 trucks around here. Okay, well, is it, is it our equipment? Start looking around like, well, we're running these Freightliners. They're not necessarily oil and gas trucks, they're more over-the-road hauling. Uh, but I mean, we didn't have any specialized, you know, 3, 4-axle trailers. We couldn't haul anything really over 45,000, 48,000 pounds. So it's not our equipment.

It.

So we, we— I named off a few other things and we went through it, and everybody's like, well, none of those are competitive advantage. I said, you know what can be our competitive advantage? And they all kind of looked at me. I said, safety. I said, guys, we've got to work our way up to the top in this area. I said, no one is selling on in this area that they're the safest trucking company. Everybody's selling on we can get it there, or we've been in business for X amount of years, or this or that, but no one's claiming to be the safest. And I said, really, even this top company right here is not safe at all. I mean, their out-of-service percentage was still, I believe, over 20, 25%. So it was kind of like everyone— it kind of opened everybody's eyes. And I said, how are we going to do this? I said, it can't just be me in here once a month telling y'all that we've got to improve safety. I said, this is a daily thing. I said, if you're not doing a pre-trip inspection, then you're letting the guy beside you down. 'If you're not doing a post-trip inspection, you're letting this lady here in the office down.' I said, 'It's all of us. If, if one of you gets a ticket, all of us got a ticket. If you get a clean inspection, all of us got a clean inspection.' And we had to change the culture in our business from being one that promoted, uh, just getting, you know, getting there and just trying to be another trucking company— let's pick up the load and get it there on time— to our drivers were more focused, I'm pretty sure, at that point in time on getting a clean inspection. And it was kind of a weird transformation that our business went through, but we eventually lowered our safety scores to the point where by 2017 we by, by far had the best safety scores in our area. And so to go from 80% out-of-service percentage down to— it was less than 5 at one point. Now we have crept back up. We are a little bit different company than we were back then, but But I've just, I've seen that when you promote a culture of safety or what, no matter what it is, if you're positive about it and you can find an angle that everybody's going to buy into, culture will win. And it can overcome whether it's safety or technology or lack of drivers or lack of loads, whatever those things are. I really believe in my heart that culture can overcome those issues if it's, if how you go about it is articulated correctly.

Right.

And I would agree. So it's, it's amazing. One, you stepped into the business right when there was kind of a technological revolution, right? That's when the DEF systems were coming, were being required. We were getting to where the ELDs were required. CSA scores were coming out, they were hitting people for those. So you kind of came in at a time where a lot more regulation was being handed down to trucking companies.

Yeah.

Which, which obviously makes it a lot more challenging, right? Not, not just because of, you know, the new regulations, but because the cost associated with the new regulations that put in place. But, you know, your point of creating a culture, you know, it's— a lot of companies will talk about certain aspects of culture. So let's point out safety, which you just, you know, we're talking about on the shift in your company. I've worked at a lot of trucking companies where we heard about safety every once in a while, but it wasn't something that was, was lived and breathed in the company. I can remember, and I'm not going to say the company's name, but I can remember we were getting a DOT audit at a company, and the safety director and the people working for the safety director were in the conference room forging logs because they knew they would fail with the log audit.

Wow.

Right, in there forging. And this was, this was, this was a while ago, but they were in there forging logs. And then I take that and I look at another company that I was at, right? And I'll actually call this one out, but I was at Schneider. Schneider but they lived and preached safety. They had winter safety training, they had summer safety training, they had monthly safety training. It was something you always talked about and you always focused on, right? And their safety scores were a lot better than a lot of those other trucking companies because they put a huge focus on safety in general. And, you know, from an owner perspective or an executive perspective in trucking and safety, Safety, you know, you focus on it because you're trying to prevent accidents, you're trying to prevent liabilities. I mean, you don't know what you don't know, what may happen. So you put a focus on it because in the end it saves you money to be a safer fleet. But you're never going to get there unless, like you did, you put that focus on that one part of your culture, your safety culture, and you preach it and you breathe it and you live it and you talk about it. And when that happens, you know you've adjusted that culture to be about safety, or whatever, whatever the, the function of the company is at that time.

And just one more quick thing, just to tie that into literally our previous episode to this one was about Jocko Willink's book Extreme Ownership. And you even said, I feel like you like stole our playbook, and you said it perfectly, but you talked about how it was not just the trucks or the drivers that were impacted, but it was the frontline staff. It was the, you know, the gal taking the phone calls, or, you know, the customer. Like, ever— like, when you you diffuse ownership to everyone involved, that's where your culture becomes intentional and positive, and that's where you really start making changes. Everyone's responsible for, you know, that load getting delivered at the end of the day, and, and being safe is certainly part of that.

So, man, one of the, one of the things we did with our staff was our, our mechanics in the shop, we started giving out a bonus, uh, for a clean inspection to the drivers, but also in the event you got one, we had two mechanics in our shop at the time, and both of them would also get a bonus And so, uh, we shifted that culture even in our shop to where I told them, I said, hey, if we— if a trailer leaves here, I said, if we catch something in the truck or the trailer, we didn't lose anything. Nothing's wrong if you caught it before it left the yard. And I said, it's not just these drivers' responsibility. These trailers and trucks are on the yard all the time. Are you looking at them when they're here? Are you checking them? And so we started washing trucks. As soon as it gets back to the yard, it's getting— it's getting washed. It's getting rinsed off. We don't want to run dirty equipment. You know, as soon as, as soon as something pulls in, I'd see her, I'd see our mechanic out there helping with a post-trip inspection, just making sure everything looks good on this. You know, we'd have a driver leaving out at 7, shop opened, or say we had a truck leaving out at 7:30 and they get there at 7, they know that truck's leaving. I would see mechanics out there looking around that truck to make sure everything was kosher on it. So I, I mean, I really, I, I do believe that that it— safety can— and from a culture standpoint, whether it's safety or whatnot, I really do believe it can be practiced by the entire organization. And it can't just be something that's just focused on one department or just the drivers, for sure.

Yep, I would agree with you wholeheartedly. So, um, I mean, it's a fantastic culture message, so thank you for sharing that with us. Um, I'm gonna switch tracks here. I'm gonna ask, so there's a lot of old older, old-school trucking people out there who've been in the industry for years and years, okay? They're retiring, they're leaving, and there's an influx of new talent that's coming in. So you talk about the millennials, and, you know, they're coming into trucking, and then you've got the older folks who are leaving. And so you'll have this loss of tribal knowledge, you know. Kind of give me, you know, your guys' perspective, right, on, you know, kind of what that means for trucking in general. Um, just because it has been in for so many years, it's been in, um, an old boys club where everybody knew each other. And, you know, it was— you had these big trucking companies and they kind of ruled the roost. But now, you know, there's thousands of brokerages and there's thousands of warehouses and you've got, you know, thousands of trucking companies. And a lot of it is the younger generation coming up and doing it. So, you know, how do you guys see that playing out? Or, you know, kind of just give me your perspective.

Yeah, so for me, you know, it's been really interesting to watch from my perspective of just what the trucking industry is and how I can tap into it, you know, to understand and learn more about the industry, being somebody that came in recently outside of it. And so, you know, for me, like, when we think— when I, when I think about loss of tribal knowledge, like, I understand, you know, we got the old guard kind of moving out and, you know, the torch I don't know if they'll willingly pass the torch. You know, you ask a driver a question, they'd be more than happy to give you an answer most of the time. I've found that out. I've also, you know, found out that most of them are more than willing to educate and get people equipped to be successful in the industry. So I think that, you know, one, for young talent looking to, you know, experience success in this industry, It's one, just like, okay, well, where, how, how high can I reach up? Like, who can I reach to my left or right that has more education than me that can mentor me in some way? They don't have to be attached to the hip, but how can I watch them from afar? How can I listen to them and their perspective on a podcast or YouTube? I think that, you know, you, you, the I think communication is such a critical piece of it. And like, I think about, you know, the generation that's moving out of the truck had their way of doing things. They had their log, you know, paper logs, truck stops, CB radio, those, you know, traditional types of ways that we communicated and shared where, you know, where loads were or what was happening on the highways. That's only shifted because technology shifts, and it'll inevitably shift again. But that's, that's shifted into this digital world. And so just as much as, you know, older drivers that are in the seats today have to adapt to the technology, the younger drivers need to use technology to adapt to the knowledge that was there prior to them. Them. And of course, there's the handshake way of doing it. There's the, there's a learning, you know, on, on-the-job training, CDL schools, things like that. There's the traditional outlets. But one thing that I've, I've really— that, that's been really interesting to me is, you know, the YouTubers that are out there. And like, I, I know some people might roll their eyes as they listen to it, but, but I mean, YouTube has so many successful trucking entrepreneurs on it that document exactly what they're doing, why they're doing it, how they're doing it, educating folks on, you know, the rules of the road, you know, and, and what, what mistakes they've made, how to be successful, how to be profitable. So I think that with, with the millennial generation, uh, being so entrepreneurial and, um, quick to adapt to technology, looking for new opportunity all the time, um, I think that, that there's ample, uh, ways for the young generation to tap into the knowledge that's available because they have the skills and the comfortability to do so through the mediums like podcasting, through YouTube, through social networks, things like that. So tapping into the industry to a greater degree, I think, is really what's, what's necessary for, for young people to experience success, uh, because, you know, the old ways of doing things are, you know, going by the wayside. So what is the, what is the current The current way is, you know, really tapping into, you know, a community of folks who are like, hey man, I just started 6 months ago, here's what I know. I just tapped in, you know, I just got in the industry 6 years ago, here's my buddy, you know, who's, who's, you know, who's taught me everything 10 years, you know, he's 10 years in, he's taught me everything, here's this guy. And just developing those relationships in, in today's, you know, modern society Jeff, a lot of the questions that we asked you were informed by a young person who listens to the show on a regular basis, appreciates the show, and was like, hey, what's the career ladder look like for me? I just started in dispatch, right? And so just the ability to listen in on a conversation has probably, you know, accelerated his career that much more and his investment commitment in the industry that much more because he understands that there is a pathway. Whereas, you know, depending on where you are, you might not be a part of a billion-dollar organization that has a lot of infrastructure to shepherd you along and show you the way. So I think just having the individual commitment to, hey, I'm going to make— here I go. This is the career path that I'm on will only take somebody to the relationships that they can develop and the knowledge and the education that they can get for free or otherwise to, to get that tribal knowledge that will continue to need.

Yeah, I think you have some very good points in there. And, you know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna ask a follow-up question, but Michael, I'm going to see if you can answer this follow-up question I have, which is, so technology, obviously the younger generation is embracing technology and they're bringing it in, and obviously it's elevated trucking and a lot of the tools that we have. So my question is, because at the last company I was at, they would much rather text drivers, um, or send emails as opposed to making phone calls. So Michael, do you think that, that we're losing something with technology when it comes to the interpersonal relationships that the office staff has with the driving staff, based on the fact that they would much rather do use technology in the way of text messaging or WhatsApp or whatever may be out there to communicate, as opposed to actually having physical conversations either in person or over the phone?

Yeah, the relationships are definitely changing. Uh, so what that relationship used to look like between a driver and a dispatcher 20 years ago is probably going to look a little bit different now or in 5 years. Uh, one of the things that we added to our trucks a handful of years ago is the ability to like send the load through the GPS system and the driver, you know, he could accept it and this and that. Well, there was a lot of pushback there. It's like, why can't you just call me? Why can't you just send me the address? Like, why do I have to hit accept and then no one's even talking to me? So, right, there was some pushback from, uh, you know, older truck drivers early on. And, and I think that you would also hear the same from younger truck drivers. I don't really know if actually it's, it's an age thing when it comes to technology. I mean, I've worked with, with young people that hate software. I've worked with old people that hate software. Um, I, I've worked with older people that, that love Excel. I've worked with young people who can't stand Outlook. So it's, uh, I think it's a, it's a, uh, it's like a relationship thing. It's like, hey, how, how are we communicating? You know, I, I definitely think that, you know, the example you say of sending them— send them a load through the text message— I think there definitely has to be that verbal conversation there between the, the dispatcher and the driver, um, at some point. I don't know if it has to be on booking a load, um, but at some point in, in the day, or at least every day and a half, you've got to have some type of verbal communication there. And so I think to your point on, is technology hurting the relationships I think maybe, maybe a little bit at this time, but I think overall the relationships are going to learn to adapt and they will, they will be better. I mean, I don't know if you went back 30 years ago how many truck drivers were just thrilled when their dispatcher was calling them to go somewhere else when they were ready to get home. I don't know if a text message or sending them the load through the GPS is any better than the phone call was 20 years ago when it comes to that. So I think it's probably something that goes along with the circumstances of the situation. Now, if you're trying to work through a detention situation or your driver's had an accident and you're still text messaging, well then, then you need to evaluate your abilities in this industry and to be able to cope with challenges. And I don't think that has anything to do with technology or, or whatnot. I think that boils down to how much sense do you have and do you actually know how to handle these situations appropriately.

Yeah, yeah.

Sorry, go ahead, Aaron.

Yeah, not to cut you off, but, you know, my, my sales hat comes on when you talk— start— when you, when you brought up that question of, hey, are people being, you know, uh, are shying away from the phone in favor of an email or a text? And, uh, you know, it just makes me think of, like, you know, the phone is the most powerful tool that you have, you know, because it does— I mean, you know my tone phone, you know exactly what I'm saying the moment that, you know, I'm saying it. And, you know, a text or an email is not going to be easy for a driver to see all the time. And so it's like, you know, I— to me, it kind of comes to coaching as well, and then understanding the value of a phone call, uh, over, you know, what, you know, the, the context of the situation, kind of like Michael brought up. And just making sure that that individual, if they're like, you know, they're, they're antsy, they're, they're experiencing anxiety or whatever it is about getting on, getting in communication with the person they need to communicate with. Like, there's other things happening internally, uh, over and beyond. Like, I like this, this way of using the tool, or this tool over this tool, you know. It's like, well, is it because you don't really have the answer and you don't have the problem solved, or is it because this is just easy and you're lazy? Or like what, what's actually going on? So you have to really get into like, hey, what is actually, you know, what, what's actually going to help you solve the problem? Because you're not here to just send messages and check a box and say, oh well, you know, I sent an email, I, I sent a text. It's to solve a problem. And so if the text and the email doesn't solve the problem, what's the next step, you know? So like, I just think about like the coaching situation that has to happen, uh, in there. And then like with, with new people and, you know, the comfortability of, hey, you know, I send messages to my friends, that's really easy. And then emails, that sounds like a grown-up version of sending messages to my friends. Like, hey, we're in business and business is going to move based on how you communicate, when you communicate, and, you know, who you communicate with. And so get on the phone, man.

Yeah, I don't know how many times I've seen younger people in our company pick their phone up to text somebody in a critical situation. I've been like, you need to call them, you call them. But I think it goes to your point too, uh, you know, who are you around and are you getting that coaching? Are you getting that, I guess maybe that tribal knowledge, that understanding that this is not a text situation? Yeah, this is a phone call situation. You need to get on the phone and get this thing resolved.

Yeah, it's, it, the coaching is so important. And I've always encouraged dispatchers to talk to their drivers at least once a day And it's really to have that relationship being built and that communication that they can have. When I started, cell phones were pretty much non-existent for everyday person. So you waited for your driver to get to a payphone, a customer somewhere where there was a phone available before you ever talked to them. And that was giving them their load information, telling them what's next, whatever the case may be. You know, we had, we had Qualcomm back then, but it was very spotty on the service. And basically the message you would send is is, hey, call me when you get to a phone, or call me when you've delivered, something like that. Yeah, we didn't have that constant communication that we could have back and forth. It was when they're, when they're able to call you, they'll call you.

So yeah, I think for trucking dispatchers and brokerages, uh, there's 3 things I think that you've got to do. And, and one is you, you've got to communicate. You've got to reply. You just can't leave people hanging, uh, you know. If that driver texts you, you can't, you know, and says, I've got the, I've got the information, I always like to say, send something like, okay, or glad you got it.

Yeah.

Um, and, and to your point on communication, there is a difference than in, in just sending K or sending a GIF of Denzel saying, my man. Communication there, or an emoji. Yeah. Um, I, I think something else whenever it comes to the communication with drivers, uh, from, from the dispatching standpoint is for one, you've always got to reply, but then number two, don't be afraid to encourage and compliment. Um, you've got to be able to do those two things. Tell somebody good job or hey, thanks for there, for being there on time. I think that little comments like that go, are definitely undervalued from, from younger people And I think there's a kind of almost a nervousness around it sometimes, like, I don't know, maybe they're going to think I'm weird if I tell them that or something. I, and I just think from experience I've seen that you never grow out of someone telling you good job and it doesn't feel good.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah. And you know what, what I've been able to witness, you know, in our business too, is just like the frequency of communication just leads to more frequency of communication. The more outbound that you actually talk to folks. Like, you know, we send emails and they don't always get— they don't get a lot of responses, but you put out enough phone calls, those are going to get responses, you know. And, and so, like, and then next thing you know, when they're sitting around looking for a load, who's the guy that I talked to yesterday? Not the— not the— what was the 400th email that I got yesterday?

It's exactly—

oh, I talked to Aaron, I talked to Brian yesterday, he said I might have a— he might have a load available. Then they're calling us, and that's the position you want to be in. And so like anybody that's, you know, shying away from, you know, every communication tool that you have available, especially the ones that really build relationships, uh, you're shooting yourself in your own foot, you know.

Yep, totally.

Yep, absolutely. So I have one more question for you guys. Um, so first, Aaron, I'm going to ask you, in your 2 years now in the industry, what's the most important thing that you've learned?

Oh geez.

And you gotta pick one, don't give me like 7 answers like last time I asked for one.

All right, so the most important thing, most important thing that I've learned, um, thus far for, for what, uh, I, I kind of—

I don't know, you spent 2 years in trucking. I don't care if— I don't care if it's you in those 2 years you learn how to play pickleball, it doesn't matter. You tell me in the last 2 years that you've been in this industry, what's the most important thing you've learned?

Mm-hmm. I, yeah, I think the, uh, the relationship with carriers is probably the most important thing that I've learned because I started, I started, you know, doing the, the marketing and then shifted into sales about a year later. And the first thing that I started to do when I was, you know, we were building the show and brainstorming the show was I got on the phone with some carriers. I was like, who are some carriers that I can call so I can kind of understand what's going on and what they might be interested in and like what their life is like and all this kind of stuff before we started interviewing folks. And so And so I just started to talk to them. And then as I've, you know, I moved into sales and started talking to customers, customer relationships are obviously important, but, you know, you can't properly service that customer until you've got carriers that trust you and that you can count on. And so I think the most important thing that I've learned thus far, the relationships that you build in the industry. But, you know, with the cherry on top being the carriers that, that you have. And so, because those are the ones that are really doing the work, doing the job that, that you truly count on every single day. And so, yeah, carrier relationships, absolutely critical to the success. And the better ones that you have and the more that you have, the better and, you know, more successful you'll be.

Well, that's a, that's a great nugget for as far as relationships are concerned. So Michael, then to you, the same question. I mean, you're 8, 9 years in the industry now yourself. What have, what have you picked up that you've thought is the most important thing that you've learned overall?

Well, I may need a second to think. No, um, I, I think, I think honesty and transparency, those are, those are the two things that I've learned always win in this industry, no matter how bad the situation is, how bad the— if it's a compliance or a safety or a lost truck or a a shifted load, whether it's your customers, your carriers, or your team members, honesty and transparency always wins in this industry. Now, you may not be able to keep that customer because of whatever happened, or that carrier may be really upset, but at the end of the day, you can go to bed at night knowing that you put it all out there. Everybody had the, the most information to make the, to make the decision that they needed to. And so I, I say put the put all the information in everyone's hands whenever you're in a pickle, and, and let it— let the— let the dice— let the cards land where they will. Um, so I think honesty and transparency through my time in the industry is the greatest thing I've learned, which is fantastic.

I can't tell you how many times I've witnessed a dispatcher lying to a driver that they've put their foot in the mouth, a customer service rep lying to their customer where their foot goes in their mouth. The problem with lying is you can't ever remember every lie you tell. So if you, if you can't remember every lie you tell, you're always— you're gonna get caught up at some point in time. So, you know, I would agree with you 100% on that honesty and transparency. That's a very, very important tool. Well, you guys, we appreciate your time on our show. You know, we've enjoyed it. I thought it's been a great conversation. James?

Yeah, it's been great. We appreciate you guys. You know, it's funny how we connected initially was on LinkedIn, just just like you talked about, Aaron, building those relationships and, and your brand. I mean, that's how I saw you and reached out for this. So we're very grateful. We're, we're on your team. We're cheering for you. And, uh, you know, we know who to send people to in East Texas if, if they need it.

Absolutely. And, you know, yeah, for our listeners out there, Trucking for Millennials, um, is the podcast. They're with PDQ America. And, you know, we appreciate you listening in. Follow us on social media. Um, #FleetSuccess. We're all out there. It's been a great episode, and we'll see you next time. Thanks, guys.

We'll see you.

Jeff, thank y'all.

Thank y'all.

Yep.

Thanks for joining us on this episode of the Fleet Success Show. If you liked our show, we'd appreciate your 5-star review. Be sure to subscribe anywhere you listen to podcasts and come hang out with us anywhere on social media @FleetSuccess. See you next time.