Episode 056: Women in Fleet

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All right. Welcome back for another episode of the Fleet Success Show. I'm your host, Josh Turley. And today we've got a very special episode. Both of my co-hosts, Steve Salzgiver and Jeff Jenkins, they've abandoned me this week. And so I am running this by myself, and that didn't sound very fun. So I reached out to several of the people in our office, and I thought it would be actually a great opportunity to get a different perspective on this show. We typically, we hear from Jeff, Steve, and I, and we're a bunch of just, you know, old salty men, I feel like sometimes. And so today's episode, I wanted to talk about what it's like being a woman in a male-dominated industry. This is something I am not going to have a lot of perspective on. And so I thought I'd turn to the experts. So joining me today, I have Kira Nelson, I have Jessica Guerro-Adams, and Farron Sanders. So I'm going to give you guys a second, just kind of introduce yourselves. Kira, I'll start with you. Tell us a little bit about who you are, what you do here at RTA. And some of your experience in male-dominated industries.

Well, as he said, my name is Kira Nelson. I'm extremely grateful to have been chosen and selected to chat about being a woman here. I am actually Josh's executive assistant, so when he was chatting with me, I'm like, what should we talk about the podcast today? And I'm like, I don't know, it's been a while since he had a woman on, quite a while. And he's like, you want to be on it? And I'm like, well, sure, I don't know what they want me to speak of. And he goes, what are you experiencing? I'm like, I don't know, being a woman. So I'm like, let me 'Let me go find some of my fellow women here in the building and let's see what we can riff on.' I've been with RTA for, oh, since December. And my prior experience before that was in military and law enforcement. So I certainly have some hard-hitting experience about being a woman in a male-dominated industry. I've certainly got a few things to say. All right.

All right, Jessica, we'll come to you.

Jessica is muted.

Okay, there we go.

There we are.

Perfect.

As you can tell, I'm a rookie at this. So my name is Jessica Guerrero-Adams. I have been with RTA for going on 2 months now, and I absolutely love it here. I'm in the SDR position, and my experience prior to this is in the automotive still with the automotive industry doing sales. I was a senior sales representative for about 5 and a half years and decided to pursue other things.

All right. And Farren.

Hi, I'm Farren. I am the resident UX/UI designer. I've also been here about 5 months. Josh, I think I'm seeing a trend here with this.

Not saying there was an intentionality behind it, but—

Um, so I— so yes, I'm a UX/UI designer, which means I help with user experience and the screens that are part of our software system. I'm on the product design team, um, and my background before I became a designer, I was an international translator. So I have been in several male-dominated industries, from, uh, DNA sequencing to industrial across several different countries.

So.

All right.

Been there, done that.

So as we, as we were coming together and, you know, talking about some of the challenges, you know, that women have in this space, I mean, there's a lot of challenges that, that we run into, that we see, I should say. I'm going to rephrase that a little bit in the workplace, just in general. But I think in fleet in particular, there's definitely just an edge. You know, we go to trade shows all the time and it is particularly male-dominated. And so as you're coming in, how do you, you know, like, what are some of the challenges that you guys run into or have run into in the past in the, you know, in dealing in any kind of working environment? And then how do you deal with those? So anybody can take that and I'll let you guys fight over it.

I'll go ahead and drive into the first one.

Well, that was quick. So, yeah.

There's a half of a mind of, "Oh, you talk too much," versus not having too much to say. So, yeah, one of us has got to jump in. Which is funny because my first point is being heard.

Perfect.

In my experience, men, they just talk, and when they talk, they talk on top of each other, and they don't wait for pauses, and women wait. I don't know if it's because they just want to say what they want to say, or it's because they don't care about being nice or kind or liked. But they just— when you get a bunch of men in the room, they all just chitchat over each other, and then they— but they can be heard. They're hearing everyone else talk even though they're also hearing. And a woman, at least in my opinion, we, we kind of wait for there to be a little break so that we can say something instead of doing that. And then the men just jump on over the top of us anyways, and we just are like, okay, I guess I'll just be quiet. And so I've definitely had an experience of, do I wait? Do I just start talking? If I just start talking, will everyone else stop? And just trying to find a balance there.

Any of you guys experience something similar as well?

Absolutely.

I mean, it's the balance. I mean, we just did it now. For those who can't see, Jessica and I looked at each other and we're like, ooh, one of us is going to talk.

We don't want to talk at the same time. I don't want to be rude.

Go ahead. I mean, that's how it is. And it's absolutely like we get talked over. Either because we didn't start fast enough to start speaking or loud enough, right? Or loud enough. Um, but I mean, Jessica, how do you feel about that?

Yeah, I feel the exact same way. Um, with my prior, uh, employer, I, um, I would find myself talking to men and they would be like, you know, automatically, I think I think I didn't know what I was talking about. And let me talk to a salesman. Well, I'm right here.

I'm—

you're right.

Here we go.

And it's just the— some automatically assume in this industry you don't know anything, right?

And it's different too with like professional environments and your personal, because at home my boyfriend would 100% say I'm the chief interrupter. But here, like, obviously there's a difference. There's a parallel here between professional and personal where I'm— I interrupt him constantly. So why do my— why do I have a completely different idea of when I should interrupt here at work? Yeah, yeah.

I wonder if there's a layer of comfort and a layer of, like, vulnerability that you have when you get to that level, like, that kind of relationship versus one you have at work where it's got to be a little bit more guarded. And so you, you're slower to engage because you don't want to reinforce, or you're like, ah, I'm gonna think about this a little bit longer before I jump in. Whereas if you've listened to Steve, Jeff, and I, like, we will just walk right over each other and then we'll come back to it. And, you know, to your point, uh, we'll kind of say what's on our mind, but we won't let go of what was in our thoughts. Sometimes I'll lose track of my thoughts, but we'll always kind of come back to it. So I think it's, it's interesting. It's like, well, we just kind of wait. And I've seen soft-spoken men before, so this isn't something unique to women. But it definitely has this, well, I'm waiting my turn. And in this industry, and particularly when it's really male-dominated, you never get a turn. You have to take your turn.

Right, right.

You go get your place in line and then you don't let anybody cut in front of you.

Right, yeah.

And that's something I think as an advocate, we have to be more aware of that and recognize, wait, wait, wait, I think you might have just interrupted somebody. Hold your thought. Like, let's let this go. If you're in a position where you're facilitating a meeting, pulling in those opinions and looking for those visual cues. And this is why I don't like Zoom, because you miss half of these cues. But look for those cues to pull somebody into the conversation. I think Jessica was about to say something there.

Right.

Right. Like, hold on. And so as an advocate, like, you have to be aware of these kinds of things, especially As we're trying to be more inclusive and bring more women into this industry, you know, in NAWFA and there's a lot of trade associations, we're trying to put more emphasis on women in fleet and women in tech and having more of that diversity and inclusion at all levels. So, you know, being able to give you guys a voice and help create those breaks, grease the skids kind of a thing, you know, you guys could do this without us, but if we're constantly talking over you, You know, like, we've got to give you that opportunity.

Right.

And to go back to what Jessica was saying, when sometimes someone comes at you and says, you know, I'd like to speak to the person in charge, and you're like, that is me, you're speaking to them. You know, there's a lot of times where we're not being taken seriously enough because we were not viewed as knowing what we're talking about, as she said, you know, where we don't have enough experience. In my last job, before I went back to school again, my boss and I were having a conversation. I said, you know, I'm really looking to move up in the company. I'd really like to keep going. He said, well, you don't have enough experience yet. He goes, when you reach somewhere around 30, you'll start to get better experience at this and you'll start to know. And I looked at him and I said, I'm 33.

And he sort of just stopped.

I'm not sure whether I should be complimented by this or totally offended.

I just had to say, good for you. Right?

You know, and it was— the conversation just stopped dead where I heard where it was looked at that I didn't have much experience. He thought I had been working for him for 4 years. I'd been there for 6 at that point, and I already had 10 years prior experience coming into the company, you know, from undergrad working through business. And so, you know, there's this constant juxtaposition that I see that's, you know, you're too young, maybe because, you know, we have to— we feel we have to look a certain way before entering the office, which is a completely separate issue.

Right, right, right.

But then when we do, we suddenly look too young to know what we're doing or that we should have that experience behind us when it's sitting right there. Nobody's ever asked us or considered it. So it's, it's a good point that Jessica made that, you know, this is kind of how we have to balance everything between what is it I know versus what is it you perceive me knowing, right?

And how do I bridge that gap?

Exactly. Yeah, Josh, you talked about vulnerability earlier, and that's That's so real, it's the culture that you're at. You know, it's like how do you feel with the people that you're with, male or female? It's like how do you react to what they say? Are you being vulnerable? Is the culture inclusive? And that's why it's so important for companies and businesses to create this culture of inclusion, of vulnerability, where the women who are not just more emotional in general, but we're, men feel the need that like they can open up, they can be emotional, and that helps us as women to like be okay, this is okay, this is where we're at. Um, as well as all the advice that we've been taught from everyone our whole lives about how women should be reacting in the business place and how they should be in the industry. It's like you don't speak unless you have something really valuable to add, um, to the conversation. Otherwise you just be quiet because otherwise they're just gonna see you as some certain type of way and When you have a culture that's so open and so vulnerable where you feel comfortable to say things, even though it's like, hey, this might be stupid, but I just have to ask a question. Or like, in having the atmosphere of openness, it changes your whole perspective about what you feel like you can be open with.

It absolutely does. It makes you not afraid to ask questions if something comes up. It just makes you feel comfortable.

Right. Yeah.

And that's a big difference too, because one of the first pieces of advice I was ever given was never say, never say no, which Josh can tell you is completely opposite of who I am today.

Please don't ever follow that advice. I will tell you, so this is a total segue, right? But most of the people who don't survive here are people who can't say no, because what ends up happening is they turn into like people-pleasing zombies. And because they don't say no, they commit to too much. And because they overcommit, they can't deliver. And then when they don't deliver, you have to really call them on the carpet. And then all of a sudden, it's like, oh, man, I was trying to be all things to all people, and I couldn't. And now I've let the entire team down. Yeah, don't do that. That's terrible advice.

But that's inherently how we grew up was to be a people pleaser. That's how as women we were brought up. You know, and, and on top of that, we're also never really supposed to say, I don't know, as an answer, because then it— going back to what I was saying before— then it does seem like I don't have that knowledge or that experience behind me. To what Kira is saying with the vulnerability and being part of RTA is we are in a safe place where we can say, I don't know, let me get back to you on that, let me look it up, which is not something that we're typically given the opportunity to do.

Yes.

I think one of my goals from this would be that more operators, more fleet owners, more managers, right, is that we're growing that where we are more aware of it, we're more self-aware of it, that we're creating those types of environments where you can thrive and be vulnerable and be open and say, I don't know. But I want that for everybody, you know? And so, and Kira will tell you this, is I am very big on— you made the comment, Farron, about there might be a theme here is like all of a sudden there's a lot of women join the company. It wasn't intentional, but it was definitely something that we're benefiting from, you know, because we're very big on the idea that as long as this is a problem, as long as we keep talking about it, you know, like, it creates a self-reinforcing narrative too, you know. And I don't want people to get into that mindset too of like, well, I'm a woman, so that's why this is always a problem, you know. Like, I want people to feel empowered and to take ownership and okay, like, how do I need to go and show up at work and be? But also make sure that you're protecting yourself, you know, because this is like— I know we have a very special culture here at RTA. Not everybody is like this yet. My goal would be to have this like this for everybody, because as much as we say this might be a woman problem, I actually think it's even more a man problem because there's a lot of environments where we don't have vulnerability. We don't have the ability to say sorry. And offer forgiveness. We don't have the ability to be genuine and real. We have to be strong and pretend like we know all the answers and come off a certain way and we project, right? But inside, we're all just little 5-year-old boys who don't know what we're doing. And I think having that kind of culture at every workplace just helps with diversity and inclusion across the spectrum. I think it just helps us all be more human. More than anything else. So, well, what are some other things that you guys have seen that you've struggled with or advice you would give to somebody else coming up in the industry that hopefully in 20 years won't be relevant anymore? Because we can— I love seeing the posts like, well, I'm not a woman CEO, I'm just a CEO. And I'm like, the faster we get to that where this isn't like a weird thing and we can just be like, oh yeah, that's totally normal now.

Right.

Like, how— what's advice you would give that you hope is totally irrelevant in 20 years?

I definitely want more females in every industry. Like, we, we all kind of come from— I mean, tech, sales, law enforcement, military— these are all, like we said, they're all male-dominated industries. But there's so much that women bring to the table that you're maybe not thinking about. I mean, Everyone's like, oh, emotions are bad, but there are certain emotions that can be such an asset to you. Or organization. Like, when was the last time you had your whole shop organized? It's like a woman coming and go, where are all of the tools? I can't find anything. I am going to reorganize all this and label it all. And all of a sudden you can find everything. I'm like, these are just one small kind of silly example that you're bringing in a woman's perspective. They just see things differently. So I encourage not only women listening but men listening just to hire women. It's not— don't approach the subject going, my sister's been in automotive for years and everyone always asks what she does. I'm like, oh, she's a manager at an automotive shop. She goes, what, really? I'm like, yeah, she's been doing automotive for 10 years now. And it just, it never occurred to her that she wouldn't go into that because there wasn't going to be any other women there. And I want more women to think that. It's like, I want to go in and do this because I love to do it and not because I was worried about there not being any other women there.

So yeah, well, just like, um, you know, my prior, my prior job, when I first started there, there were nights that I would literally go home and just like, I'm not going back, I'm not going back, forget it. And I guess my advice would be don't give up, you know, stay, stay strong. No Know that you're— know your self-worth.

That's good.

That's great advice.

That's great.

Mine was going to be similar, perseverance. A lot of times when you know something, you're the specialist in your field, and someone else comes and says, well, actually— because we've all heard that before— and they try to tell you you're wrong for whatever reason, don't let that deter you from pushing forward. You know, if someone challenges you and you suddenly think, oh, maybe I am wrong, because you're being hit with that so many times, go do your research, go find, you know, a book or something that will reaffirm that and remind you that you know what you're talking about so that when it happens again, you have that there, you have that piece of information there to say, I'm going to stop you right there. 'Hey, this is my field. I do have some experience in it. Let me explain my reaction to you or let me explain my idea a little bit more. And then we can discuss it further.' You know, just always just trying to even that playing field.

It's so interesting because, you know, if I were giving advice to a man, like that would be the exact opposite of the advice I'd give them.

Really?

Yeah, totally.

So what would your advice be then?

Admit you're wrong. Be open to other ideas and other solutions that aren't your own. Be willing to change your mind on something. And just because you're the expert in the field doesn't mean you still don't have something to learn. Isn't that interesting? That it's almost like—

It sounds so valid.

But I think there's this balance of a teeter-totter, right? That on the women's side, we're trying to come up and assert ourselves in ministry. And the men were like, hey, we're trying to diminish and be open and and, you know, communicative, like, we have to have these counteracting balances, you know. And so, and this kind of gets to, you know, a lot of times, like, we've heard this, you know, that when women are more direct and act more like a man, they get labeled, right? Versus a man acting like a man just gets tolerated. Um, and I will not say that it's everywhere, and I, because I do not want to play into the victim card, like, I refuse to do that, right? It happens, but how do you handle that kind of a situation so that you don't turn into a victim and so you don't turn into, you know, well, you get this label attached to you that you then have to like figure out how to shed so that people still hear you because you get labels attached to you and all of a sudden you don't need to be listened to anymore, right? It invalidates your entire opinion because of one character flaw. How do you guys like balance that and overcome some of those things?

I don't know that I figured that one out yet.

I know, that's tough.

Right, that is.

That's a good one. And there's certainly a mode of vulnerability that's got to come with that. Like what's— for example, you're accidentally— like something happens in the workplace and it just like it pushes you overboard and you just either lose it in anger or you're crying or you just get up and leave and you have to be able to come back to that team and go, look guys, I'm sorry. I apologize that that happened. It just, it got the better of me. Or as I just learned last week at one of the conferences we attended, like walk into the room and go, hey guys, just letting you know, I don't feel very good today. Like I'm not gonna 100% be here. And whether or not you're a woman or a man, like being able to just say, today's not my best day. It's not gonna be the greatest. And everyone in the room just knows that and they I don't want to say they'll treat you a little differently, but they will. They'll tone back a little bit or will just be at a little more of a vulnerable place. And so just being open.

It's just communication.

Communication, clarity. Like, you're being— this is what I got.

I think what Josh is saying too is don't use it as an excuse, right? Like, coming in and saying, hey, I'm not feeling well today. It's not an excuse for my behavior, but I'm letting you know that I might be a little bit off balance today.

Give me a little bit of grace today. Yeah, that's something we say a lot.

And a little bit of credit too.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, sure. All right.

Well, any last thoughts? Any advice that you guys would give to male fleet managers or like male bosses out there that you would say, hey, if you get nothing else from this episode, take this away? I'll run the room. We'll go reverse order. So, Farren, we'll start with you.

Oh, gosh. I would say to take a chance on someone who you didn't think, you know, women specifically, who you didn't think was gonna be good at the job. And if they're not good at the job, take it as an opportunity to train them to be better so that they can be the person that you were expecting to fill that role. 'Cause we're not gonna get opportunities unless someone's willing to give us a chance from the very start.

Jessica?

I would say I would kind of go off the same thing. Just like she was saying, give us a chance to prove ourselves and—

Then get out of the way.

Yeah.

[FOREIGN LANGUAGE] Right.

I know.

Exactly.

I don't want to follow that. She was a tough act to follow.

She was a real tough act to follow.

I was like, "Yikes." I will take blame for that.

Let her go first.

Thank you. Thank you, Faryn, for being wonderful.

Yes.

I'll say to the women already in fleet, who you're already in a male-dominated industry, be confident in yourself, but also be willing to accept and to change. Don't give up on your dreams simply because of something. Like, we've come a long way. Women have, race has, everything evolves, everything changes. And there's room for that in your culture. There's room for that in your environment. You just have to keep giving it a chance. If you just keep giving up, The reception is just always going to be the same. You have to be the one. You have to be the change. So stick with it. Know your worth and accept change in yourself and in your culture and your environment.

I think you hit on one thing, and Jessica said this earlier. I was going to say something about it, but I didn't want to interrupt. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate it.

Yes, yes, absolutely.

But it really— know your self-worth. Like believe in what you have to offer, believe in who you are, and really kind of understand and have that self-confidence. And don't let anybody take that away from you. And if you're in a position, you know, I appreciate that you guys had this, this advice to persevere, and I want to see you guys persevere, but I do not want to see you in an abusive relationship, right? Because there can be employer-employee abusive relationships. And sometimes I've seen that where Women are like, it's not desperate, desperate's the wrong word, but it's you want that thing so bad, right? Like you're hungry, hungry for that recognition, for to prove yourself. And that chip will put you in a position where you end up like just suffering in a job. And I will tell you, there are so many jobs out there that are much better, that are better environments, that the culture is shifting. Where the culture is great and encourages debate and encourages inclusion. Go find that. Don't suffer needlessly just because you're worried and you don't have that self-worth. Build your self-worth up, know what you're worth, and don't let anybody push you around. And when they do, do not be afraid to go find something else where your self-worth is valued.

Absolutely.

Love it. Preach.

All right. Well, that was a first for us. Hopefully not the last.

I don't know. Did you like the giggling girls?

I walked— so there wasn't as much giggling. Giggling on the podcast. I walked in and like the entire room was just laughing. I was like, oh no, oh no, what did I do? That doesn't happen with Steve Jessick.

What did you get yourself into, right?

As just a reminder, we have the Fleet Success Playbook out. Feel free to email us at podcast@rtafleet.com or hit me up on LinkedIn if you want to know more about that. And then we're going to be over at GFX next week talking about fleet success, talking about some of what we've got going on here at the company. And so I'd love to see you there. If you're going to be at JFX, come stop by and we will see you on the flip side. Until next time.

Thanks for joining us on this episode of the Fleet Success Show. If you liked our show, we'd appreciate your 5-star review. Be sure to subscribe anywhere you listen to podcasts and come hang out with us anywhere on social media @FleetSuccess. See you next time.