Episode 070: Dignity vs Performance

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All right. Welcome back for another episode of the Fleet Success Show. I'm your host, Josh Turley, joined today by Jeff Jenkins.

How's it going?

It's going just amazing. It's a fun, fun day here at RTA, always. So today we wanted to focus on this topic of dignity versus performance, and this one kind of piqued your interest a little bit because you're like, what is that? Like, that doesn't sound like something I've heard before.

No, I'm more curious, like, how we define dignity, right? Right. I, I get versus performance, but how do we define dignity? And then it'd be exciting to get into that.

So I first heard about this from— I was listening to At the Table, the podcast from Patrick Lencioni. And I want to say it was one of the first episodes that they ran. It talked about this balance between those two. And when we talk about dignity, like, let's define it so that we kind of understand what we're talking about here. When I think about dignity, it's this humanity and it's like seeing the whole person and recognizing that there's a story there, that there's feelings there, that there's, you know, emotional trauma there, that there's somebody there that's then the job, right? And that's, it's somebody that has a family or they have dreams or they have, you know, like it's more than just a role or a function. And so when we talk about humanity, it's, you know, you're going to hear words like grace and compassion, and we give people a lot of grace and we forgive them and we try to help them and we try to coach them and grow them and nurture them, right? But there's a lot of patience involved with dignity. Um, you know, it's almost like you're treating them more like your kids than you are an employee at that standpoint.

Yeah, I think I got a great example of this. So in trucking, first starting out, I've got a board of 60 trucks, and what you did when a driver called in is you'd recognize their voice or they'd say their name, and immediately you'd go right to their truck number. Oh, 2657, how you doing? Right? So you're thinking— and that was the mentality— is you just got truck numbers because drivers came and go. And so, but your truck numbers never did. So you didn't ever really get to know the driver specifically. You just treated them like an object. You just treat them like, hey, this is how much revenue you're going to end up generating every single week. Like, so it was very different. There wasn't that dignity. Like, a guy needed to get home for their kid's baseball game or whatever else And they may tell you about that, but because you didn't get to know the person specifically, all you cared about was, hey, how are they performing and how are they making me look?

Yeah, and that's what we see a lot of times, and that's where this balance with performance comes in. It's because on the performance side of the equation, you have what you probably think of with corporate America, high-pressure trucking jobs, is it's all about the numbers, it's all about the performance, right?

Right.

And In those, like, it's just kind of a soulless place where, you know, it doesn't matter that your mom's dying of cancer. You weren't here on time, you didn't get the job done, and now we're left, you know, having to make a change, right? And it's just kind of cold, a little bit of, you know, cutthroat.

Very much so.

Kind of see that mentality come through a little bit because you really are just a cog in a machine. You're there to help corporate America, or you're there to help them do their job, and it doesn't really matter about you or why you're there. Those are kind of like the opposite. If you were to put this on a spectrum, those would be the opposite ends of the spectrum. Patrick Lencioni, he does this as a Venn diagram, so he draws two circles that overlap each other a little bit, and one circle is dignity and the other circle is performance. What ends up happening for a lot of people is that the companies split into those two camps, and they either focus on dignity or they focus on performance, and most companies focus on performance. That's why you see things like, oh, we've got 2,500 layoffs in the last week, or like, it's just very much like, hey, we're here to make sure the corporation survives. It's less concerned with the people in the corporation. On the flip side though, because it sounds like you've had some experience with that cutthroat side of it, on the other side though is the dignity where they flip too far to the other side of the spectrum. And now it's just like, yeah, it's okay if we're gonna miss numbers, we're gonna miss this. It's just, you know, like we wanna make sure that we take care of the whole person. And you end up in situations where nobody ever leaves because nobody's ever fired and no hard conversations are ever had. And there's just grace everywhere, right? It's almost like a church where you're never kicking anybody out. And it's this idea of, you know, like, everything mediocrity is okay.

I worked at a place like that, but what a lot of corporations do is someone doesn't want to fire, they won't have a hard conversation, so they basically encourage, nudge that person to go to a different department.

It's just like, it's somebody else's problem. Yeah, we're just going to shuffle it around.

Listen, this place I worked, there's people that have been there 20, 30 years and probably had never achieved anything in that time they've been there. And that's a loose statement, but it seemed like they never achieved anything because someone just got fed up with them And then they'd say, hey, this job's open, go apply over here.

Right.

And then they'd go over there and they'd get a job with these people and then that person would pass them around. So they go to every department in the company once, twice, 3 times.

Like circle around sometimes. Haven't I seen you here before? Yeah.

But then it's like, hey, they've worked here for 20 years. So they're, we're loyal. They're loyal. It's like, yeah, but what did they accomplish in that 20 years?

And so what ends up happening is you do, you have this like, well, great job. You survived, you didn't die. And that's like the only way that you would ever leave a company.

Yeah.

You know, we were that way for a long time, you know, where it was just, it was all about the people and it was all about the good conversations and we would just want to have fun with each other. Like, we had goals and things like that, but it was very much a relaxed atmosphere. You know, it was more about like, we're family-oriented. Oh man, I tell people this on the interviews all the time. We are not a family-oriented company anymore. It's just, that's like a toxic word in my book. Because it does, it blurs the line between permanence of a family relationship and the temporary nature of an employment agreement. You have to kind of make sure that you really understand, no, this isn't forever because we are gonna separate at some point. It's just guaranteed. At what point that is, is up to both of us, right? But let's not confuse the two terms 'cause you don't fire your brothers, you don't fire your whatever. They're just always family. I have seen people fire their family, like they do the whole emancipation and whatnot, but it's just different.

Yeah. How do you respond to someone— this just brings up a question— how do you respond to someone when you're interviewing them and you're asking them about, "Hey, so what are your great characteristic traits?" or whatever else, and they answer with loyalty?

Um—

Because that kind of goes in line with that whole thing.

I'll push them a little bit on it because I want to know why. What's the motivation behind it? Some people are very, like, they're just deeply loyal, right? Like, I know I have that, that character trait as that, like, once I establish that connection relationship with you, like, I want to maintain that. It's part of my personality, you know, I'm sure it deals with my own past trauma or whatever, but the idea is that you're loyal as long as the relationship is, is still serving. And I think that's the question I would have for them is like, well, until when? Right? Because there's a point where that loyalty can turn dysfunctional in multiple directions.

Oh yeah.

Where it can be taken advantage of or where your loyalty, you're using somebody's loyalty against them. And I'd rather in a working relationship have it be more based on mutual trust and respect. You know, that it's like you're getting something from this and I'm getting something from this and we can be friends along the way. But at some point, if we're no longer, getting something from that relationship, then like you need to move on for your own betterment and we need to move on for our betterment, right? And like the company's got to be looking at both of those things side by side. Yeah. Um, but yeah, whenever somebody tells me that loyalty element, well, tell me more about that because you're looking for something that you can just coast in for 15 years? That's not this, right?

That's kind of what I was getting at.

Yeah, no, and I've seen that. And even like I'll look at resumes And if somebody has been at a company for 15 years, you're like, at some point you get bored. You know, like you've done all you can do. And if I don't see any job movement, if I don't see any, like, you're pushing— and this goes back to culture. Maybe you have a culture that's totally okay with being mediocre and just like, this is where we're at. Mediocre is probably the wrong word. That's got a negative connotation to it.

You're steady eddy.

You're just steady, right? Like you don't have a lot of change and things don't need to move around a lot. And like, you're not pushing the envelope or rapidly disassembling and reassembling things, then maybe you do look for somebody that's loyal, that really is all about, "Hey, I just want a steady position." And that's, I think, where I come back to the loyalty is like, loyalty to who? Is that loyalty to you? You say it's loyalty to the company, but it's still kind of self-serving when you really boil it down. Yeah, because it's really more about your job stability than anything else. So then, yeah, so I like to kind of push on that one. But in a company where that really focuses on dignity, you will see words like that, that they value loyalty more than anything else, you know, because it's somehow like that's the way they justify their self-worth as a corporation. Companies that do skew too hard on the performance side, we see that all the time. They just, they're heartless. But companies on the other side, when they're dignity, they're too nice. You know, it's like they just, they never have those hard conversations. In fact, I remember You know, it wasn't that Dad could never fire anybody, but for a long time he'd have his VP come in and make those— may have those hard conversations. And like, hey, today is your last day. Because he knew the people too well, and like, he just cared too much about the people, uh, to say like, yeah, I can't do this. You know, like, he just couldn't hold himself together emotionally. It was too tough for him. And so he would call in his VP and be like, hey, it's— we need to make this happen. And so VP would come in and the VP was the other side of the equation, right? It was all our performance. Like, I'm not going to care about this at all. Today's your last day. Here's your check. See you on the way out. You know, but like no empathy, no compassion at all, right? And it was just like the two dichotomies. I think the key for this is to recognize the balance, right? To find that happy medium because you don't want to be a soulless, heartless company. But you also don't want to be a company that never grows and never pushes and never tries to achieve anything because it focuses more on just keeping people happy than keeping people motivated.

Right.

And like you mentioned, this idea of, you know, people that just rotate around, I think there's actually a happy medium where you can have people rotate around to a point, right? Like maybe you've got the right person in the company, but they're in the wrong seat. Well, then yeah, you want to try them out in another position. The key, though, is that you don't just keep trying them in new positions. At some point, if they aren't a fit, they're just not a fit. And you've got to know when to call it. They deserve to hear that as much as you deserve to respect yourself as a manager and as a company to have that hard conversation.

In a small company like this, it's probably, you may not be a good fit for X, but you could be a great fit for Y. I don't know that I'd go beyond one move though.

Right.

In a big corporate world where you've got tens and twenties of different divisions and areas in a company, maybe someone gets three strikes. I don't know.

Right.

But you still have to have some level of performance. You have to show me that you're trying. You have to show me that you're coachable.

Right. It doesn't matter which role you're in.

Correct.

You've got to show those attributes. And that's part of it too, right, is like, If you keep having to just, well, let's try this and let's try this, at some point that person has to become responsible for their own career path. And it can't be up to you as their manager to like, well, let's try you in this position. They've got to like, no, I really want to be here and I'm going to grow and prove myself that I belong here in this role. And it's not just something I was given.

Right.

And that's where I kind of like, if you can't figure that out within 2 or 3 moves, this probably just isn't even the right industry for you. You know, like, you might be in the wrong industry altogether. Maybe you need to go be a waiter. Maybe you need to go be, you know, in like the service or hospitality industry. Maybe you should go fly the friendly skies or something. But like, maybe this just isn't your kind of company. Maybe you shouldn't be in fleet. Maybe you shouldn't be in SaaS. But after 2 or 3 different roles, if you can't figure out what it is you want and somebody has to keep giving that to you, like, it goes to our core values. You know, we talk about hunger is like you got to leave the cave, kill it, and drag it back. Nothing in that scenario after 2 or 3 times shows me that you want to leave the cave, kill it, and drag it back.

No, you're just—

because you're waiting to be spoon-fed.

You're just living.

Yeah, you may as well be at a nursing home, right? Like, just somebody's taking care of you and like, oh well, let's move you to this room, let's move you to this room. There's no hunger, right? And that's what like we look at all the time is you got to find that balance. When we do that though, so right, you see, you take the moves and you do try to give them a chance or two, but You don't let them stay for 30 years just wandering in mediocrity. The other side is like you have that hard conversation with them and you tell them where they're not doing well and you tell them where they need to improve and how they need to do better. And you do it kindly and gently with compassion. And maybe they come to you and say, "Well, my mom's got cancer and I'm having to take care of her. I just had, my wife just had a miscarriage," or like, "I'm going through mental health issues," or something like that. When you find those things out, and ideally you're running your one-on-ones and things like that in a way that you can pull that information out and you have that rapport with your people, then you act accordingly around that, right? And you don't just, "Well, okay, I'm sorry to hear that, but this is a business and we gotta run." You can flip around, and that's where that balance comes in, right? And we're like, "Okay, well, how can I help you get through this so that you can help us be more productive again?" Yeah, and I'm glad you mentioned that because people go through different things.

So we do this thing at our executive offsites where we'll go through personal histories.

Yep.

And basically you just tell a story from your past and we talk about your childhood that helped shape you to who you are today. And we did this last week and 6 of us, 7?

6.

6 of us went through and did this. And I will tell you, learning about people's past and some of the things that shape their life gives you so much more empathy and to better understand them as a person and understand how they tick, why they may do certain things at work. It's just enlightening, right? Because you gotta realize, and I think I said this after we went through our 6, and I said, and listen, we've got all these people that work for us that have similar stories, similar backgrounds that we don't even know about that makes them tick the way they do.

And the whole time you're assuming, right? Like when you interact with these, man, that guy is just an a-hole.

Right.

It's just an idiot. Turns out, right? Oh no, that's actually not what's going on. But unless you see the whole person, you are over here just assuming they can't get the job done.

Yeah.

Or that you had no idea what was happening at home and how that was distracting them from what was happening at work and why they couldn't show up with their whole selves because they couldn't figure out those two things. And I will say, this goes back to the, if you're all dignity, then somebody could be having a problem at home and maybe the next time it's a problem with their kid and then the next time it's, well, my car wouldn't start and the next time, At some point you have to be like, "Yeah, I just don't think this is working." Yeah, you have too many problems. Right. And maybe this just isn't the right role for you. Maybe this isn't the right time. You know, we talk about timing in life a lot, but you have to understand the whole picture and balance the two of how are they doing in their job versus how are they doing at home and make sure that those two things, like, that's the whole person that we're talking about.

You also have to have You know, you have that dignity, but that's why you have goals, and that's why you grade people on their performance. Now, they got to be reasonable goals, obviously, something that's attainable. But if someone just week in and week out does not achieve their goals and there is no performance, you can't have that dignity override what you're trying to accomplish, or you'll be out of business and then everybody's without a job, right? You've got to balance both of those. You know, if someone's achieving their goals and they achieve them 80% of the time, well, guess what? 80% of the time is pretty good.

Yeah.

In the grand scheme of things.

And you brought up a really good point right there, which is that, you know, like if you're letting somebody slide, like at some point you've got to do the right thing for the business because you've got other souls on the business depending on you to do your job. That was a lesson I had to learn, oh, this is, you know, probably early on in my CEO tenure, was like I was putting the needs of one individual ahead of the needs of the rest of the company because I wanted to maintain that relationship and I wanted to maintain I wanted to be friends with this person and everything, and I cared about them. And I realized that I— and it was selfish. It was really what it was. I was selfishly trying to hold on to this thing and make it work when I should have just cut it. And what ended up happening is I got to the point that the company financially needed to make changes, and I used the finances as an excuse to finally make this change. And now, if I were to have a similar situation, realizing that I'm putting the personal relationship ahead of the business interest, That's where this performance versus dignity balance is so critical. Okay, at some point, I've done all I can. I need to, for the sake of the business, sever this relationship and help them go on, right? Because it's either become too big of an issue or something like that. But putting the needs of one person above the needs of the entire company is usually where dignity businesses fall. And they fail so often there because it is, they've just put the needs, you know, It's that personal, it's selfish, it's a selfish relationship.

Yeah, I, I had that same mistake as a CEO where I had this lady working for me, um, and single. She just got divorced, had two kids she was supporting, but God, she was drama. Like, she was that person that everything started from, and I was way too sympathetic to her personal life as opposed to what kind of chaos she caused in the office, and I never changed it.

Yep.

And I know we just suffered so heavily because of it.

Yeah. Versus had you had the courage to say, hey, like, this just isn't working. And like, you know, and this is why it sucks to be a leader sometimes, is you know what that person, what you're putting them through, what you're sending them to. But because there's, you know, however many other people, like here at RTA, there's 45 other people that depend on this to function well, and you're putting the needs of that one person and now sabotaging the rest of the company and causing so much drama and delay.

Well, and so many people complained about her, and I just didn't listen. I was just so overwhelmed by the tears I always got that I just let it stand. Probably one of the bigger mistakes I've made.

That is the balance, right? Like, it's trying to figure out that. And you look at those past histories, those past experiences, and I'm sure our listeners could say the same thing, is they've had times where they've let the tears and the emotions and the dignity override the performance. And when you realize that, you make a correction. And the key here is not to overcorrect, um, because if you overcorrect, then it just— you obviously end up spinning out and it causes all kinds of issues.

Right.

So speaking of spinning out, like, it's totally off topic. Jeff was in a fun rainstorm this weekend.

So listen, I'll tell you the quick story because it scared me to death, by the way. Uh, and worse, it scared my wife to death too, who was in the car with me at the time. But we're driving back Saturday night, and you know when you have that storm that you, you kind of see but you don't know it's there until you hit it? Completely clear skies— well, not clear skies, it was dark— but no rain, anything. And then all of a sudden it's just sheets of rain coming down, 75 down the freeway. I hit an oil patch from that rain, took my foot off the gas, and I started fishtailing on the highway. I mean, I'm going through all 4 lanes, hydroplaning and all that, and then all of a sudden it does a whole 360 in the truck and corrects it. And there are cars on the highway. I don't know how I didn't hit anybody. And how I did not hit that side divider between the two sides of the highway. Yeah. I said, "Oh shit," 3 times because I thought I was going to hit something 3 separate occasions. Ended up getting corrected myself and I got asked the question, is it going to change my driving habits? The answer is probably not, but it freaked me out.

75 isn't too crazy. It wasn't. You know, we just got to get your tire replaced on that front right side.

I don't think that would have changed anything.

I mentioned to him that, uh, you know, typically as soon as I start seeing rain or anything like that, I flip it into all-wheel drive just because, like, I've had too many experiences like that where it just— it, it loses the back end of the truck, especially with as much power as these put out now. Yeah, it's way too easy to lose traction.

And I appreciate that tip because I promise you, next time it's raining, I will do just that, right?

Just throw in 4A and call it good.

Yep, yep. And I'll slow down.

Oh, maybe a little bit.

Well, I'll take my foot off the gas. How's that?

Well, that sounds like that was what caused your problem this time too.

You should have just powered through it. Powered into it.

That's Right. All right. Well, that's going to wrap it up for us for this episode. Thank you guys for listening. As always, feel free to submit your comments, questions, anything you'd like to hear us address on the podcast to podcast@rtafleet.com. We've got the Fleet Success Summit coming up in March 2023 over in Las Vegas. You can head to fleetsuccesssummit.com, go check out that, get registered. Love to see you guys out there. We're getting our speakers lined up. If you've got any requests or suggestions for speakers, we'd love to hear that too. And until next time, we'll, we'll catch you later.

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